1
00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:07,680
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steph.

2
00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:19,400
Speaker 1: I've never told your productive I heart radio. Today we

3
00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,520
Speaker 1: are once again joined by our friend and co worker,

4
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. Thank you so much for being here, Bridget,

5
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,640
Speaker 1: It's always a delight, always a delight for me. I'm

6
00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,320
Speaker 1: so happy to be back. Yes, And we were talking

7
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,680
Speaker 1: before this about how important the topic that you brought

8
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:40,240
Speaker 1: to us today is and how much we've been wanting

9
00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,599
Speaker 1: to talk about it, and because I can't help myself,

10
00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,720
Speaker 1: I immediately thought about there's a new genre of horror

11
00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:52,360
Speaker 1: movies about this very thing, and I actually find them

12
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,960
Speaker 1: quite disturbing because there's a sense of the like because

13
00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,000
Speaker 1: we're talking about online harassment today, and these horror movies

14
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 1: has this sense of like you can't control what happens

15
00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,760
Speaker 1: on the internet, and that like there's this sinister force

16
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:17,080
Speaker 1: that is going to wreck your life and no one

17
00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,600
Speaker 1: takes you seriously, which is how a lot of horror

18
00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,000
Speaker 1: movies do go, especially when you're talking about women of like,

19
00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,760
Speaker 1: you know, raising the alarm there's a problem here, and

20
00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,479
Speaker 1: people are like, I don't see the problem or get

21
00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,800
Speaker 1: over it, but I do. That was one of the

22
00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,039
Speaker 1: first things when you sent this topic to us, and

23
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,360
Speaker 1: that was where my brain went. It's like, oh, yeah,

24
00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,080
Speaker 1: I've seen these horror movies and they actually legitimately freaked

25
00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,960
Speaker 1: me out. Well, I saw that movie friended, or maybe

26
00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,840
Speaker 1: it's called unfriended. Unfriended, it's unfriended. Where's my nefarious stuff

27
00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 1: happening on the computer on the internet and you cannot

28
00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,160
Speaker 1: control or escape it. That movie scared the crap that.

29
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:55,880
Speaker 1: I mean. It's funny that you bring this up because

30
00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,360
Speaker 1: it is a really interesting parallel. I've never thought about

31
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:04,160
Speaker 1: before sort of how the horror movies really capitalize on

32
00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,080
Speaker 1: this phenomenon that a lot of women online experience where

33
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,840
Speaker 1: it's something bad is happening online and no one is

34
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 1: taking me seriously, um, and it can really get out

35
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,440
Speaker 1: of control. I hadn't sort have thought about how films

36
00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:20,360
Speaker 1: have really captured that. Yeah, and I was thinking on

37
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,360
Speaker 1: the ones that I've seen, which admittedly is only you know,

38
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,919
Speaker 1: a handful maybe ten. I love horror movies and they

39
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,920
Speaker 1: are almost always I can't think of an exception, a

40
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,680
Speaker 1: woman at the heart of it who just gets harassed

41
00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 1: and her entire life ruined and no one believes her.

42
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,400
Speaker 1: Um and we'll like go to authorities or even go

43
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,320
Speaker 1: to like in some cases maybe a professor or like

44
00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 1: a mentor and they're like, uh, don't really believe you.

45
00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,679
Speaker 1: That can't be that big of a problem. Get over it.

46
00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,000
Speaker 1: And because as we've we've spoken about horror is a

47
00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:07,320
Speaker 1: great reflection of current societal fears, and so it's interesting

48
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:08,880
Speaker 1: to me that we do see more and more of

49
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,560
Speaker 1: those types of movies. But we're not actually talking about

50
00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:18,240
Speaker 1: the horror movie aspect today. We're talking about real life

51
00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:24,919
Speaker 1: instances of online harassment with women and marginalized communities. Yes,

52
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,480
Speaker 1: that's right, although I do I do agree that like

53
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,200
Speaker 1: movies and film do a great job of representing this,

54
00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 1: but it is a really scary topic. It's great fodder

55
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,400
Speaker 1: for a horror movie. You know, we have seen this

56
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,520
Speaker 1: wave of women facing harassment online for just doing their

57
00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 1: jobs in some cases like journalists, or just for existing

58
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 1: online at all. And I want to be very clear

59
00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,040
Speaker 1: that I don't want to scare anyone. This is a

60
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,440
Speaker 1: can be kind of a heavy topic. Hopefully it won't

61
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,440
Speaker 1: be too heavy during this conversation, but you know, it is,

62
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:56,560
Speaker 1: it is a reality, and so I think that as

63
00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,800
Speaker 1: women as queer folks, as trans folks, as marginalized people.

64
00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 1: The Internet is rightfully our domain, right, Like, that's the

65
00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,800
Speaker 1: main thing that I want to drive home. We have

66
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 1: been so instrumental in setting up the Internet as it

67
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,560
Speaker 1: exists today, So it is our domain, and it's our

68
00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,960
Speaker 1: right then to show up or not show up online

69
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,760
Speaker 1: however we please. And so I think that all of

70
00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,560
Speaker 1: us should show up as our full, colorful, wonderful selves online,

71
00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,599
Speaker 1: but we should still acknowledge some of the risks that

72
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,599
Speaker 1: it involves and some practical steps that we can take

73
00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,479
Speaker 1: to keep ourselves safe online while we're saying all the

74
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,080
Speaker 1: things that we want to say and showing up in

75
00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:33,440
Speaker 1: the ways that we want to show up. And so

76
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,160
Speaker 1: it's it can be tough because let's keep it real. Like,

77
00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,719
Speaker 1: nobody likes talking about harassment. When I was doing research

78
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,200
Speaker 1: on this, almost every woman I spoke to was like, Oh,

79
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,880
Speaker 1: I don't really like talking about it because people think

80
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,520
Speaker 1: you're a whiner. People are like, oh, you know, you're

81
00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,279
Speaker 1: taking it too seriously, like, oh, you know, what, a

82
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,880
Speaker 1: baby grow up. But that silence, that that that kind

83
00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,840
Speaker 1: of expectation that we just suck it up and and

84
00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:00,839
Speaker 1: you know, deal with it and not speak up about

85
00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 1: it is meeting that we're all kind of suffering in

86
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,880
Speaker 1: silence alone. And so as much as it's a drag

87
00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,320
Speaker 1: to talk about, we should definitely be talking about it. Yeah,

88
00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:15,320
Speaker 1: And I think when we've talked about like, I know,

89
00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,600
Speaker 1: this is a bigger conversation for a separate episode, but

90
00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,480
Speaker 1: when people, you know, shout that First Amendment thing, and

91
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,320
Speaker 1: I always remember this argument I read that will imagine

92
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,679
Speaker 1: that you're somebody trying to speak and there's a thousand

93
00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,080
Speaker 1: other voices yelling at you, trying to shut you up.

94
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,000
Speaker 1: And then what what we're silencing people? As you said,

95
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,400
Speaker 1: and just the idea that, as you said many times,

96
00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,919
Speaker 1: Bridget when you've been on here, that the Internet is

97
00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,719
Speaker 1: real life, Like this is not just something that you

98
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,320
Speaker 1: can dismiss or suck it up and get over it.

99
00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:52,800
Speaker 1: It impacts your every day and it can be very

100
00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,599
Speaker 1: hurtful and very scary. And recently we've seen some pretty

101
00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:04,080
Speaker 1: high profile cases of women being forced off social media exactly.

102
00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,240
Speaker 1: I mean, that's exactly what you saw with Christie Teagan.

103
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 1: Christie Teagan she left Twitter in March. She said that

104
00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,720
Speaker 1: the platform no longer served her positively. And this was

105
00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,480
Speaker 1: a big deal for a few reasons. First of all,

106
00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,279
Speaker 1: Christie Takan people used to call her like the mayor

107
00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,800
Speaker 1: of Twitter. She was such a prolific user. If you

108
00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,039
Speaker 1: use Twitter, you definitely probably saw her viral tweet. She

109
00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,320
Speaker 1: was very funny, and she also was pretty embedded in Twitter.

110
00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,159
Speaker 1: You know, Twitter as a company. She spoke at their

111
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,240
Speaker 1: one of their company events. You know, she was a

112
00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,040
Speaker 1: pretty buddy buddy with them. And so the fact that

113
00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,760
Speaker 1: she was this powerful power user who was so prolific

114
00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,280
Speaker 1: on the platform, and that she didn't feel like the platform,

115
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,840
Speaker 1: you know, really served her positively, really indicates the scope

116
00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,080
Speaker 1: of the problem. Right, this is probably their most high

117
00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,359
Speaker 1: profile v I P user and that user was not

118
00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,160
Speaker 1: able to have a positive experience on the platform and

119
00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,400
Speaker 1: had to leave that platform. For me, that really indicates

120
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,680
Speaker 1: that something is broken with your platform. And to be clear,

121
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,920
Speaker 1: the kind of harassment that she was facing, it's not

122
00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,120
Speaker 1: just people being like, oh, I don't like your cookbook,

123
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 1: or oh this joke is not funny. It was pretty intense.

124
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,960
Speaker 1: She had Q and on followers constantly connecting her to

125
00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,960
Speaker 1: baseless allegations of child abuse, as they do um and

126
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,720
Speaker 1: this is especially awful considering that she was publicly dealing

127
00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,320
Speaker 1: with a miscarriage that she talked about on Twitter, So

128
00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,600
Speaker 1: pretty abhorrent behavior, you know, And I think there's a

129
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,880
Speaker 1: pretty big difference between criticism of someone who's a public

130
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,960
Speaker 1: figure or a celebrity and the kind of harassment that

131
00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,160
Speaker 1: she faces that frankly nobody deserves, right. I know, there

132
00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,320
Speaker 1: was a definitely back and forth of the damned if

133
00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,280
Speaker 1: you do, damn DV you don't with her, whether it's

134
00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,120
Speaker 1: because she did want to share the tragedies she went

135
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,560
Speaker 1: through as a way of saying you're not the only

136
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,520
Speaker 1: one you know and showing her heartbreak being very honest,

137
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,480
Speaker 1: to being too public, that that that's being too public,

138
00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,760
Speaker 1: or she's doing this for sympathy, garnering sympathy versus you know,

139
00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,880
Speaker 1: you're not saying enough. It was too weird back and

140
00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,560
Speaker 1: forth of damned she did, damned that she didn't. And

141
00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,040
Speaker 1: it's also kind of the same difference that there were

142
00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,800
Speaker 1: other people in here that were being I guess the

143
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,400
Speaker 1: best word, they were sicking people, all the other people

144
00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,240
Speaker 1: and it's amazing, I know, just like the journalists who

145
00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,160
Speaker 1: was the intern her first article and it really just was.

146
00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,680
Speaker 1: We investigated this. Myself and two other reporters investigated this.

147
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 1: Here's the article. I'm so proud to someone going after

148
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,240
Speaker 1: her and making her target to the amount of harassment

149
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 1: that she went through. And she wasn't even saying anything

150
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,040
Speaker 1: on Twitter, but the amount of vitrol and harrassment she

151
00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,880
Speaker 1: got was unreal. To be honest with you, that specific

152
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,240
Speaker 1: incident was what prompted me to do an episode of

153
00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,920
Speaker 1: my own podcast, Our No Girls on the Internet, about harassment.

154
00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,160
Speaker 1: So the person that you're talking about Brenna Smith, she

155
00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,599
Speaker 1: was an intern at the USA. Today she tweeted that

156
00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,160
Speaker 1: she had her first byline on a story about how

157
00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,520
Speaker 1: defendants in the Capital Insurrection were using all of these

158
00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,439
Speaker 1: sort of backdoor approaches to crowd fund for their defense.

159
00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,199
Speaker 1: And it was a fairly like standard piece. It was

160
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 1: not an opinion piece or an op ed. It was

161
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,360
Speaker 1: a standard reported piece about what's happening. It was a

162
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,559
Speaker 1: code Byeline, her and another woman reporter whose name escapes me,

163
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,599
Speaker 1: and then a white male reporter will Careless. And so

164
00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,679
Speaker 1: she tweeted, so so happy about her first Byeline as

165
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,719
Speaker 1: an intern. And I think it was Glenn Greenwald who

166
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,960
Speaker 1: retweeted it to his millions of followers to basically say

167
00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,240
Speaker 1: that she should be ashamed of herself, you know, just

168
00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,719
Speaker 1: a really mean tweet. And to be clear, if he

169
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,040
Speaker 1: had a problem with that article, there is a way

170
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,160
Speaker 1: to talk about the problems that you have with a

171
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,880
Speaker 1: piece that that a journalist writes in a way that

172
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,040
Speaker 1: is not harassment. It's so it's so different to retweet

173
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,400
Speaker 1: an intern, you know, the power and balance alone there,

174
00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:52,040
Speaker 1: I think is worth noting. It's so different to amplify

175
00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 1: you're really harsh personal swipe at somebody who really doesn't

176
00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,920
Speaker 1: have a lot of power. And yeah, that when I

177
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,240
Speaker 1: saw that, it kind of broke my heart because I

178
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,319
Speaker 1: remember what it was like to be an intern. I

179
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,800
Speaker 1: remember what it was like to have to feel like

180
00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:09,559
Speaker 1: you didn't know what you were doing and they have

181
00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 1: people not take you seriously, and that would have broken me.

182
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,920
Speaker 1: And in her credit, I was so happy to see

183
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,280
Speaker 1: so many reporters, including folks like Ronan Pharaoh, you know,

184
00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,880
Speaker 1: supporting her and being like great job, like good work,

185
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,360
Speaker 1: welcome to the journalism club, because it would have really

186
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 1: really hurt me if a high profile reporter with a

187
00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:35,240
Speaker 1: big platform amplified this kind of attack. Against me because

188
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:36,920
Speaker 1: they didn't like something that I wrote. And I'm so

189
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,200
Speaker 1: glad that you brought that up, because that was such

190
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,480
Speaker 1: a I don't know why, but it really that incident

191
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,760
Speaker 1: really stopped with me, and really this made me want

192
00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,760
Speaker 1: to talk about harassment and sort of point out all

193
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,480
Speaker 1: of the things that women online are putting up with

194
00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,160
Speaker 1: that we just didn't have to. We shouldn't have to

195
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,600
Speaker 1: put up with this to do our jobs. It definitely

196
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,360
Speaker 1: spoke to the fact that they weren't criticizing her work.

197
00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,720
Speaker 1: They just were coming after her. They half the people

198
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,640
Speaker 1: had no idea why they were mad other than oh,

199
00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,120
Speaker 1: you're calling us who were in support of the insurrection, which,

200
00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 1: by the way, yeah, we should be criticizing you a

201
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,679
Speaker 1: b in something bad and you said, we're doing something bad.

202
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,720
Speaker 1: And all she really did was investigative journalism where they

203
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,959
Speaker 1: went down like different money trails to see what was

204
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,440
Speaker 1: happening in the story, and then they were harassing her

205
00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,640
Speaker 1: looks harassing just her being a woman being around. The

206
00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,760
Speaker 1: amount of just hate and anger that came onto her,

207
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:28,880
Speaker 1: which made no sense because it was not of any

208
00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,839
Speaker 1: critique to our work. It literally was just you, I

209
00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,600
Speaker 1: don't like you. You, you're awful person. Of course, we're

210
00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,040
Speaker 1: saying this nicely as what was on there, because we

211
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,880
Speaker 1: know this whole range of harassment that happens, especially when

212
00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,839
Speaker 1: it comes to the threats and the death threats that

213
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,000
Speaker 1: happened for people who are just doing their job, and

214
00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,439
Speaker 1: essentially her doing her first piece, really being proud of

215
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,680
Speaker 1: the fact that she got something out there and doing

216
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:57,040
Speaker 1: something that was investigative, which seemed fairly straightforward as a

217
00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,760
Speaker 1: piece like it just unbelievable. Yeah, it was really upsetting

218
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,719
Speaker 1: to see. And she's not alone. Unfortunately. According to a

219
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,720
Speaker 1: survey from the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization,

220
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,439
Speaker 1: seventies three percent of women journalists that they surveyed say

221
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,280
Speaker 1: they have experienced online violence and the course of their work.

222
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,960
Speaker 1: And then it goes even further because of those women

223
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,880
Speaker 1: journalists who participated in this survey say they have been

224
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,120
Speaker 1: attacked offline in connection with online violence targeting them. So

225
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,040
Speaker 1: absolutely right, I am so sad to report that that

226
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,079
Speaker 1: what happened with her is not an isolated experience and

227
00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,480
Speaker 1: that for so many women journalists that online harassment, that

228
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:40,480
Speaker 1: that wave of online hate is then connected to offline,

229
00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,440
Speaker 1: real world attacks or offline threats, and so it really

230
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,280
Speaker 1: is something that is not just happening online, even though

231
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,640
Speaker 1: it's very tempting to think that it is something that

232
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,040
Speaker 1: has a real world impact, both in the kind of

233
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,439
Speaker 1: silence saying that Annie was talking about earlier and in

234
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,400
Speaker 1: the fact that this is like people showing up at

235
00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,240
Speaker 1: your house, people calling your parents, things that are very

236
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,120
Speaker 1: you know, very much happening in in your real world.

237
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:19,680
Speaker 1: I know I've spoken about this before on the show,

238
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,400
Speaker 1: but I when I was a producer on this show,

239
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,319
Speaker 1: I got docked and I didn't have a big presence online,

240
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:35,319
Speaker 1: and also like it wasn't really advertised that I was

241
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,520
Speaker 1: on as part of the show, and I just remember

242
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,480
Speaker 1: it being so shocking and feeling like, well, how did

243
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,360
Speaker 1: they find me? And it was very very scary, and

244
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,160
Speaker 1: we had to hire security at our company, we had

245
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,760
Speaker 1: to put these systems like software in place, and being

246
00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,080
Speaker 1: like the source of that just made me feel really small,

247
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,520
Speaker 1: like and it was what blows my mind And this

248
00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,719
Speaker 1: shouldn't matter at all, but it does to me that

249
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,080
Speaker 1: it was a really, to me not super controversial topic

250
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,240
Speaker 1: of the things we've discussed so much, like really not

251
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,280
Speaker 1: it was making fun of that like hot crazy Matrix video,

252
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,840
Speaker 1: and just that the whole idea of you don't even

253
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,120
Speaker 1: have to be somebody that's like famous or has a

254
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,800
Speaker 1: big following for this to happen to you, which is

255
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,560
Speaker 1: very frightening. I don't know, bridget if you want to

256
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:38,480
Speaker 1: speak about have you experienced any harassment online? Yeah? I

257
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,560
Speaker 1: mean I I first of all, I'm so sorry to

258
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,840
Speaker 1: hear what you went through, and I'm sorry to hear

259
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,080
Speaker 1: that it sounds like it was a really isolating experience.

260
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 1: I think that's the hallmark of so many folks that

261
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 1: I talked to who have experienced that. Me. I mean,

262
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:57,880
Speaker 1: I've gotten my fair share of like sexist, gross racist responses.

263
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,120
Speaker 1: You know, I once had a situation, Um, I guess

264
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,160
Speaker 1: I would say this at the beginning of the Trump administration,

265
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,440
Speaker 1: and like the Trump campaign, I guess the Trump era,

266
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:13,080
Speaker 1: I felt like online discourse had gotten a lot more heated,

267
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,960
Speaker 1: and so I noticed, you know, more people in my

268
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,320
Speaker 1: mention saying racist things or or using racial slurs and

269
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Only once in my life has

270
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,680
Speaker 1: harassment ever gotten to the point where I needed to

271
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,200
Speaker 1: involve like authorities. And this was kind of like you,

272
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 1: this was when I was first starting out in my career,

273
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 1: I was not someone who had any kind of big

274
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,200
Speaker 1: public profile. I think I had like maybe I think

275
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,200
Speaker 1: I was on Twitter and had maybe a hand a

276
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,280
Speaker 1: couple of handful of followers. I don't think I had Instagram.

277
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,720
Speaker 1: You know. I was not someone who was like a

278
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,320
Speaker 1: public figure at all, and similar to you, the thing

279
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,840
Speaker 1: that I was writing about was fairly mild. I remember

280
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,680
Speaker 1: very clearly. It was this woman and Nita Sarchiesian, who

281
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 1: at the time was making this video series about tropes

282
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,640
Speaker 1: and video games, and so, lord no, she gets a

283
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,560
Speaker 1: whole hell of a lot of harassment that she does

284
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 1: not deserve. It. It is wild to hear what happens

285
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,880
Speaker 1: to her. But I was just giving a pretty fact based,

286
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,720
Speaker 1: like aggregation of one of her videos. So it wasn't

287
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,480
Speaker 1: even like I was like any of the Starkesian wrote

288
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,360
Speaker 1: this thing and it was so great and I really agreed.

289
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,560
Speaker 1: It was just like, here's what she says. And from that,

290
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,600
Speaker 1: somebody reached out to me and basically indicated that they

291
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,360
Speaker 1: knew where I lived. And I don't want to say

292
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:30,880
Speaker 1: too much, but the way that they were framed at

293
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,920
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this person actually somehow does know

294
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,000
Speaker 1: where I live, Like he use such specific language to

295
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 1: talk about where where I used to live. That like,

296
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,640
Speaker 1: it occurred to me that he did know where I lived.

297
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,360
Speaker 1: And again it was one of those things where I thought,

298
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,720
Speaker 1: how could anyone find this out about me? Why would

299
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,680
Speaker 1: anyone to find this out about me? I'm such a nobody.

300
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,560
Speaker 1: But that is so so important for folks to understand.

301
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,960
Speaker 1: You don't have to be Chrissy Tiguan or you know,

302
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 1: a high profile journalist or someone who talks a lot

303
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,720
Speaker 1: social media or has a bit following for someone to

304
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,919
Speaker 1: just decide that they want to harass you. And that's

305
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:06,920
Speaker 1: why it's so important to do what we can to

306
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,879
Speaker 1: make it harder for folks who would like to weaponize

307
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,119
Speaker 1: any kind of information that's out there about you to

308
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,880
Speaker 1: do that, because it can happen. You know, you don't

309
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:16,920
Speaker 1: have to be high profile for the staff, and you

310
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,920
Speaker 1: could really happen to anybody. Yes, And and it is

311
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,000
Speaker 1: it's so upsetting going back to that like silencing thing,

312
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,560
Speaker 1: and just I know I've I've said before about how

313
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,920
Speaker 1: I stopped online gaming because because of this very thing

314
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:37,680
Speaker 1: and just those fears of well, I guess it's safer

315
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,159
Speaker 1: if I don't say anything at all, which is the worst.

316
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,240
Speaker 1: So do you have some steps people can take two

317
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:53,200
Speaker 1: hopefully prevent this at least a little bit. Absolutely, So

318
00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,920
Speaker 1: I have to give a shout out to journalists Liz

319
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,920
Speaker 1: Lens for this helpful list. She was a guest on

320
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,360
Speaker 1: my podcast earlier this week. She really kind of gave

321
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,280
Speaker 1: me a little crash course in how we can prevent

322
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,720
Speaker 1: information from being weaponized against us by online harassers, and

323
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,200
Speaker 1: so I want to thank her so much for providing this.

324
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,760
Speaker 1: She's she's from the Midwest. She calls herself a practical

325
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,560
Speaker 1: Midwest mom, and so these are such some practical tips

326
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,399
Speaker 1: that we can all use. So the first one that

327
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,359
Speaker 1: she said was to be really choosy about what you

328
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,040
Speaker 1: decide to post on social media, specifically Instagram. Uh. Liz

329
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:27,879
Speaker 1: herself as a single mom, and she says that she

330
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,840
Speaker 1: never post pictures of her kids on Instagram because she

331
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,959
Speaker 1: doesn't want their faces to be too familiar or too

332
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,239
Speaker 1: recognizable to people who would, you know, want to harass her.

333
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 1: And like, just in general with Instagram, it can you

334
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 1: would be surprised what kind of things can be sort

335
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,399
Speaker 1: of like taken out of context, what kind of images

336
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,240
Speaker 1: can be taken out of context to smear you or

337
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 1: harass you, And so I know that kind of sucks.

338
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,040
Speaker 1: It's something that I do as well, Like people always

339
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 1: say like, oh, Bridget, like are you in a relationship,

340
00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,239
Speaker 1: what's your what's your family like? Because I rarely ever

341
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,159
Speaker 1: post things about my romantic life, my personal life on

342
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,920
Speaker 1: social media precisely because of that, you know, and it

343
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,440
Speaker 1: does sucks. It's it sucks to feel like you have

344
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,680
Speaker 1: to be a little bit guarded about what you share

345
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,159
Speaker 1: on social media because you don't want, you know, you

346
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 1: don't want people to to use it to weaponize you.

347
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 1: Like I see all my friends posting there Valentine's posts

348
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,400
Speaker 1: of them in their boo and it's like, I don't

349
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,760
Speaker 1: do that. But Liz suggests that this is something that

350
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 1: like really bums you out. If you're like, man, I

351
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 1: really want to be able to share whatever I want

352
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,119
Speaker 1: to share, you could consider having a private Instagram account

353
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 1: with the kids sometimes call offen sta, just for your

354
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,679
Speaker 1: approved friends and family, and then a separate public Instagram

355
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,639
Speaker 1: account where you're a little bit more guarded. And so

356
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 1: that's just the way if you're if you if you

357
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 1: really feel compelled to share things, but you don't want

358
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:47,880
Speaker 1: them to be going to be going to a wide audience.

359
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 1: That's one thing that you can do. Another is something

360
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 1: that I had never heard of, which was signing up

361
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 1: for a service called delete me or some kind of

362
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,960
Speaker 1: other service that scrubs your information from the web. And so,

363
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,399
Speaker 1: as I said it earlier, and as you said, Annie,

364
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 1: like I was really surprised that someone online was able

365
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 1: to zero in on where I lived, and I spent

366
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:08,720
Speaker 1: a lot of time thinking like, how could that be?

367
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 1: How could someone have my address? Like how is this

368
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,359
Speaker 1: happening to me? Well, I did not know this, but

369
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,440
Speaker 1: there are sites online that collect and sell your personal data.

370
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 1: And if you sign up for a site like delete

371
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,679
Speaker 1: me or some kind of other similar site that scrubs

372
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 1: your data from the Internet, that will make it a

373
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,359
Speaker 1: lot harder for folks to find your personal information. And

374
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 1: Liz actually says that the most times when harassmers were

375
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,919
Speaker 1: able to find their targets personal information like their address

376
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,119
Speaker 1: with their phone number, it's because of those kinds of

377
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,160
Speaker 1: sites that are just selling your personal information to whoever

378
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 1: is willing to pay for it. And so you know,

379
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 1: this is not a commercial for delete Me. They have

380
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 1: not paid me in any way, but literally, after talking

381
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 1: to Liz, I signed up for it and I found

382
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 1: thirty five different sites that were selling my address, my

383
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,480
Speaker 1: current address where I currently I'm sitting right now online

384
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 1: but not anymore so HI for something like that. Boom. Yeah,

385
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,159
Speaker 1: it doesn't help that things like a Facebook has happened

386
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 1: and sold five million people's information either, exactly. It's like

387
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 1: when you think, when you put it in that context,

388
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 1: there are so many bad actors out there making money

389
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 1: off of our information, our data, right, Like, when you

390
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: think about it, it really is. The picture is a

391
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 1: taste terrifying. Yeah. Another thing that she suggests, which is

392
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 1: I also do, is deleting your tweets. Harassers love to

393
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 1: take things that you've posted against you, so she recommends

394
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,399
Speaker 1: that everybody be deleting their tweets regularly, and again, it

395
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 1: sucks to do this. I have had to delete some

396
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 1: some of some tweets I was like very proud of,

397
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: or like jokes I thought were particularly funny, even though

398
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure only I loved them. But in the long run,

399
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 1: it's so much safer because I mean, think about every

400
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 1: joke that you've ever made on Twitter that didn't land,

401
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 1: or everything you've ever tweeted after a few glasses of wine,

402
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: and now think about that being on Twitter forever than

403
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: anybody who is inclined to can go back and dig

404
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,160
Speaker 1: and find and scrape and find that joke you made

405
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: after four glasses of wine that you regret. Right, And

406
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 1: so for Liz, you know, she is this writer who

407
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,680
Speaker 1: writes a lot about politics and extremism, so she's often harassed.

408
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: The thing that comes up with her a lot is

409
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 1: this joke that she made after just a few drinks

410
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: out with friends about online dating, where she tweeted a

411
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: man on Tinder unmatched with me after I told him

412
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 1: I'm a journalist, what's he hiding? And so obviously that's

413
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 1: just a joke, right, She's not, she's not, she didn't.

414
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 1: It's just it's just a joke that she made, you know,

415
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: about her experiences dating as an online journalist. But to

416
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 1: this day, people who are harassing her have screenshot at

417
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: that joke. It's many years old now, and they use

418
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: it to fraudulently claim or falsely claim that she docks

419
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: an innocent man because he wouldn't date her. This was

420
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: a joke people. She says that people still ask her like,

421
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 1: did you docs an innocent man? And she was like,

422
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: She's like no, I was just I was just kidding

423
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 1: around on Twitter, like come on, And so yeah, it

424
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 1: really just goes to show how people can take whatever

425
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 1: you have to say really wildly out of context and

426
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 1: use it to harass you, all right, or if you

427
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: were met Gates, yes maybe evidence, Yes, absolutely, Okay, keep going.

428
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: So you can go to tweet delete dot net. It

429
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 1: is a free service that you can use to regularly

430
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 1: delete your tweets without you even having to do anything.

431
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 1: And I really recommend it because again, it makes it

432
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: so that you don't have these like you know, because

433
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: you just just don't know what thing someone's going to

434
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: use to take out of context to harass you. Look,

435
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure that when Liz made that joke, she wasn't

436
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: thinking that years later people would still use it to

437
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: falsely claim that she's doxing people who don't want to

438
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: date her. So it can just be a good way

439
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: to give you that peace of mind where it will

440
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 1: make it a little bit harder for folks to find

441
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: information out there about you too then use to harass you. Yeah,

442
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 1: when you said that tweet, it seems such a like

443
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: a straightforward joke. I wouldn't have thought of how to

444
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: use that as a wave of against her. But yeah,

445
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: now that you're say and I'm like, huh, okay, okay,

446
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: which is dumb because in my head it was obviously

447
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 1: a joke. But wow. And yeah, we've definitely talked about

448
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 1: delete me, because we when we did a couple of episodes,

449
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: including about in Cells, we were so sure we were

450
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 1: we were holding our breath and going back and forth

451
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 1: about what we were going to say, about how we're

452
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: going to say it, and whether or not we were

453
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: going to be attacked. My partner at that time was like,

454
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: please don't do this, Please don't do this. You're gonna

455
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: get dogs. You're not gonna get you. And we did.

456
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: We had that conversation, Okay, we gonna do delete me,

457
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: just in case we need to check and see. Of course,

458
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: I think we've got a pretty great audience and fam

459
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 1: who know us enough to not use that as how

460
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: We're going to to show people who they are. Essentially,

461
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: I guess it's the best way to say it. So

462
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 1: we haven't gotten any backlash, but that definitely was a concern,

463
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 1: and I hate that that has to be a concern

464
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: for us to even just talk about anything. We didn't

465
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: even say anything necessarily bad other than what it was

466
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: and what he has done and how it's impacted women.

467
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: But that alone seems to be offense of in the

468
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: nature of your calling us out somehow, right, Yeah, I mean,

469
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: oh god, do I identify with what you just said.

470
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: Even in this episode that I did about online harassment

471
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: with Liz last week, I didn't tweet about that episode.

472
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: It's the only episode I didn't personally tweet about because

473
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: of what you just said. I don't advocate anybody living

474
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: in fear, and so I want to be very clear

475
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: that I hope I'm not making it. See Michael, this

476
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: is so scary, but it is hard, and it sucks

477
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: to have to be that mindful. It sucks to have

478
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: to have a sam As a podcaster, you have to

479
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: have a conversation with your partner about what you can

480
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: and can't say, and what you should and shouldn't say,

481
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: and how to keep yourself safe if you say X,

482
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: y Z, just to do your job as a podcaster,

483
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: and I find myself always equivocating and being like, well,

484
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: it's not even like I said anything. It's not like

485
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: I did something bad like express an opinion like it was.

486
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: It was just a fact based account and even that

487
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 1: just seems like such a such a like It just

488
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: really makes me feel as if I've internalized that I

489
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: need to really watch what I say and that if

490
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to be talking about a handful of subjects

491
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: like in sales or harassment, I need to make sure

492
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 1: that I am not expressing my opinions and I am

493
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: just stating verifiable facts and blah blah blah. In the

494
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: back of my mind, I'm always thinking, well, I don't

495
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to

496
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: get on a radar of the wrong people. And that's

497
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: just it's it just sucks that this is how we

498
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: have to exist, right, I mean, shoot, this could be

499
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: a whole other episode of how this is making it

500
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: a backtrack for women who have finally come on board

501
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: being able to be confident in their jobs and being

502
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: able to be confident in what they're doing. And now

503
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: it's not so much that we are being man splained

504
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: or you know, talk down. It's so much more that

505
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: we are afraid physically afraid of what the backlash will be,

506
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 1: even if it is just a factual conversation that we're

507
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: trying to have it. Because we are women or we

508
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: identify as women, we may be targets in the story,

509
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: whether it's because some man really takes it personally that

510
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: we say this and this and this, the A, B,

511
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: C and D, whether it's hey, this group is really

512
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: really you know, not great for women. They treat women

513
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: not so nicely. You know, stuff like that, white supremacy

514
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: is not a great thing. What how dare you? You know,

515
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: stuff like that where it seems obvious in this day

516
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: and age, But we've kind of backtracked in living in

517
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: fear for our safety once again just by saying something

518
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 1: else where. You know, many of men right now are

519
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: talking about cancel culture, whether it's because of the hashtag

520
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: me too or all of these things, are saying some

521
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: stupid stuff, say racist things and say, oh, I'm being canceled.

522
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: That's their biggest fear half the time, where women are

523
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: truly being threatened with rape and death, and it's a

524
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 1: whole different level of Okay, how do we combat this? Yeah,

525
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: it is terrifying, I mean it kind of reminds me

526
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: of that joke where men are afraid with their data

527
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: is going to be unattractive. Women are afraid it's going

528
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: to kill them. Right, it's it's it's And again, I

529
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: want to be very clear, and there's a difference between

530
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: legitimate criticism and response and all of that. But when

531
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: a man puts his opinions out there, they're not People

532
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: don't respond by calling them a whore or you know,

533
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: a slur, or saying they're gonna be raped or they're

534
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: gonna kill their kids. It's so different. And I think

535
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 1: that you hit the nail on the head, Sam, and

536
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: that we talk so much about cancel culture and things

537
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: like that, we need to make room to talk about

538
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: you know, what happens when women and other marginalized people

539
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: are pushed from these platforms because of this kind of

540
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: harassment and even just the threat of it. What happens

541
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: when you know, prolific gamers like Annie just stop playing

542
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: games online because of the harassment, right, Like, that is

543
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: also a form of silencing. That is also a speech issue.

544
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: And yet when we talk about these things, the conversations

545
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: around like cancel culture and that kind of thing just

546
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: dominate the conversation, and we don't see the ways that

547
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: an entire generation of women, people of color, and marginalized

548
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: voices have been silenced and pushed off of their platforms

549
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: because of harassment. And that is also something we should

550
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: be talking about. Man with all these big platforms. Maybe

551
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but there seems to be no protection. We've

552
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: talked about the fact that Facebook already is now under

553
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,959
Speaker 1: a new foundation of accusations of the fact that they

554
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: had the millions of people's information have been hacked and

555
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: this is not the first time that that's happened to them. Um,

556
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,239
Speaker 1: we know that Twitter is on a constant battle between hey,

557
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: are you going to stop this level of us? But

558
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: what are you going to do? As well as when

559
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: we talked about Twitch, what have they been doing for

560
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: women gamers who are being constantly harassed? Is there not

561
00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: something more that they can do or is it just

562
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: literally a free for all? So I'm glad that you

563
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: asked this. There is so much they can be doing,

564
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: The question is do they want to do it? I think,

565
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: especially with Facebook, part of my day job involves trying

566
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: to hold Facebook accountable. There is so much they can

567
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: be doing, and the question is do they want to

568
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,239
Speaker 1: be doing it right? And speaking of the Christy Teagan thing,

569
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: Christy taken made it very clear she was like, I

570
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: don't blame Twitter for me having to leave the platform.

571
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: They're like Twitter staffers worked with her team to try

572
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: to help her deal with the harassment that she faced regularly,

573
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: and I'm sure they did. Chrissy Teakan is wealthy, she's

574
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: well connected, She's married to John Legend, she is an

575
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: a lister, and it doesn't surprise me that Twitter was

576
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: very helpful in trying to help her handle this. But

577
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: here's my thing. You shouldn't have to be Chrissy Teagan

578
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: to get a tech platform. Two make it so that

579
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: you can use their platform without facing this kind of

580
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: intense harassment. Right. A similar thing happened with Leslie Jones

581
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: from who used to be on SNL and was on

582
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: in the reboot of Ghostbus RS. The kind of racist, sexist, disgusting,

583
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: targeted harassment that she got, she eventually left Twitter. She

584
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: deleted her Twitter account, and again she was another prolific

585
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: user and Jack Norsey, the head of Twitter, personally intervened

586
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: to bring her back to the platform, which I thought

587
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: was great, but again you shouldn't have to be famous

588
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: to get these big platforms to do something. And bear

589
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: in mind that a lot of the people who work

590
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: for these platforms they make so much money. These platforms

591
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: have so much money. I refuse to believe that there's

592
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: nothing they can do. But oftentimes it feels like we

593
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: are just left alone to, you know, get delete me

594
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: and be super careful about what we say and how

595
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: we say it to protect ourselves in absence of their leadership.

596
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: It is a total lack of leadership on their part

597
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: and we're all just left kind of picking up the pieces.

598
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: And it's horrible, right, And it seems like it's growing

599
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: up companies like delete me and like the Twitter site.

600
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: They're getting money to do something that shouldn't be a

601
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: concerned begin with, to be be a part of the

602
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: social media platforms. And then I guess another question just

603
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: had a like sized flight Clubhouse, which is a whole

604
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: new format now coming back through. I guess it's kind

605
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: of a resurgence of the old platforms of social media

606
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: however you want to say it, But what does securing

607
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: ourselves look like before we even jump into those types

608
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: of platforms. Well, with Clubhouse, that's a really good question.

609
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: A lot of folks are interested in it. I would

610
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: say the number one thing to remember about Clubhouse is,

611
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: even though the app really goes out of its way

612
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,239
Speaker 1: to be like you don't record conversations, your conversations are

613
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: being recorded like that, like that's just point blank end

614
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: of sentence. And so just know that whatever you say

615
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: on Clubhouse, someone is probably recording it somewhere. And I

616
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: think that that's something that I've seen with Clubhouse. I

617
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: think because and so propos who don't know Clubhouse is this?

618
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: I think it's still an invite only social media app

619
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: that is audio and conversation based. So basically you join

620
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: and you join a room, and it tests people's voices

621
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: in real time, and one of are big rules is

622
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: no recording, even though it does get recorded. And so

623
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: I think because of the ephemeral nature of an app

624
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: where the interactions you have are just voice, I think

625
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: that it can incite people to say wilder stuff and

626
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,959
Speaker 1: and to behave worse than they would in a written

627
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: medium where there's going to be some record of it.

628
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: And you know, I've seen, if I'm being honest, I

629
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: was in a Clubhouse of room with a A list celebrity.

630
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say her name, but she's someone who

631
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: you might know where she was part of a harassment

632
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: campaign against a doctor for giving information about COVID right

633
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: and like it was. When I watched it, a part

634
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: of me was like, I cannot even believe what I

635
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: am listening to right now. And I think the only

636
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: reason why that happens is because people they feel bolder

637
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: or emboldened to behave like that, because it's clubhouse and

638
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: the whole I think the vibe is like, oh, you

639
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: can sort of get wild and needs rooms late at night,

640
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: and there's no there's no paper trail of it. But

641
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: I think you know, what it comes down to for

642
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: me is that on any kind of social media app

643
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: or really anything online, there needs to be very clear

644
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: policies around what is tolerated and what's not tolerated. Otherwise

645
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 1: stuff just gets wild and it's just the wild wild West,

646
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: and people are being harassed and bullied and miss and

647
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: disinformation is spreading and it can really be a free

648
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 1: for all. So if there's one thing I know about

649
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: technology is that if you don't have from the onset

650
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: very clear and specific and explicit policies around this kind

651
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 1: of thing. People will just do whatever, and it'll be

652
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,439
Speaker 1: out of your control if you don't, if you don't,

653
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: if you don't say right out of the gate, you know,

654
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: no white supremacists allowed. White supremacists will find it, and

655
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: they did. But I found it interesting because your case specifically,

656
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: I don't have clubhouses an iPhone thing and DR four

657
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: I don't have iPhone and so therefore I can't get

658
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: an invite. I feel very I don't feel sad beside

659
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: at the same time, but that is that actually bled

660
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: into Twitter, and I know exactly what you're talking about,

661
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: and I know the level of harassment that the doctor

662
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 1: went through because of that, and no one took responsibility

663
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: because they literally like it was it was a social

664
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: media platform where that no one really takes seriously and

665
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: that people did, and so those who allowed for that

666
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: kind of harassment happened never acknowledge it as being a problem,

667
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: which is again the problem exactly. And yeah, clubhouse, you

668
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: know it's not accessible for people who don't use iPhones.

669
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: It's also not accessible just in general, like there's no

670
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: like for an app that is being used by so

671
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: many tech and silicon Valley influencers. There's no captioning for

672
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: folks who need captions, Like it's so it's wild to

673
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: me that an app that is so not accessible. It's

674
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: like such a big part of the conversation right now.

675
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: I know Instagram is trying to do something similar to it.

676
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm sure. I think Twitter has spaces now,

677
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: like it's going to become the new the new ibe.

678
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: I feel that a lot of platforms are are trying

679
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: to adopt because that's how things are with Chach. You know,

680
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: that's an interesting point because a lot of what we've

681
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: been talking about is how the onus is on women

682
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: and marginalize people to sort of put up with our

683
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: deal with harassment that is almost expected, and when these

684
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: new apps or social media platforms come out, like I

685
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: remember when Snapchat came out and people joked about how

686
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: it was like dick Roulette, you're gonna and that was

687
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: just the thing, and and it's wild to me, Like

688
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: we've talked before about how women do face things like

689
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: revenge porn or being your image manipulated and passed on

690
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 1: and then sent to your family or sent everywhere, and

691
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: having that sort of gendered aspect to this, and then

692
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: also I think it's changed. But for a while, like

693
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: Xbox Live had this whole thing of like how to

694
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: deal with harrassment online? And you know, I had a

695
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: couple of bullet points, but the final bullet point was

696
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: if it gets too bad, leave It's like, I mean,

697
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,959
Speaker 1: think about that. Their official guidance was if you can't

698
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Like that,

699
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: Like that really tells you all you need to know

700
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 1: about where they put the onus and the burden and

701
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: the responsibility. Certainly not the people who are paid very

702
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: handsomely to develop Xbox Live platforms. No, no, if you

703
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: don't like it, you can just leave. That should not

704
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: be what we're telling a generation of people who want

705
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: to show up and use their voices and take up

706
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,439
Speaker 1: space online. And to the fact that social media has

707
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: become so huge that if you're not a part of it,

708
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: there are big aspects of job requirements that you're going

709
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: to miss out out like that, just the fact that

710
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: you have to be savvy with some of these platforms,

711
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: and and the fact that oh, well you can't take

712
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: it because you're a woman, maybe you shouldn't do this

713
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 1: job is kind of that push and pull, which is

714
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: kind of like, this is absurd, But I didn't want

715
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: to ask because I'm not I'm not sure. We've talked

716
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: about a few examples of people being harassed. Have we

717
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 1: seen examples where they kind of came up on top

718
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: even through all of that harassment, or maybe when we're

719
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: a platform actually did something good outside of Leslie Jones. Yeah,

720
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I I think that Leslie Jones is a

721
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: good example. I can't think about a time where someone

722
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: was harassed and they sort of had the last laugh.

723
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: But I will say this and that a lot of

724
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: situations that you're seeing right now, where particularly women journalists

725
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: are being harassed. The thing that gives me a lot

726
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: of hope is I think that we're seeing a community

727
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: come together to be like that is not cool. And

728
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: for me, that really illustrates that kind of culture shift

729
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,240
Speaker 1: because I think a few years ago that wouldn't have happened.

730
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: So folks like um Rachel Abrahams at the New York Times,

731
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: she did this critical report on the far right, you know,

732
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: conspiracy peddling cable news network one American News, and after

733
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: she did that report, they put her personal phone number

734
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: and email address her personal self phone number and email

735
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: address on television and encourage their viewers, many of whom

736
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: are to say like fringe types, to reach out to her.

737
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: They said, we encourage our viewers to stand up to

738
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: the intimidation by the left and feel free to reach

739
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: out to this Time's writer. Now, I think if that

740
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: had happened a couple of years ago, and The Times

741
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 1: was getting lots and lots of angry calls about this report,

742
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be shocking to make The Times fired her,

743
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: suspended her, or just did nothing let her deal with

744
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: this on her own. But The Times put out a

745
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: statement supporting her and calling out what happened. And so

746
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: I think that when we see these cases of outlets,

747
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: an institution sticking up for their reporters who are the

748
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: targets of this kind of harassment, and communities, it's like

749
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: regular people online being like, this isn't cool. We see

750
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 1: what's happening. This is harassment and you should be ashamed

751
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: of yourself. I think that's the only thing I can

752
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: say is kind of people who are the targets of

753
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: this kind of harassment getting through it. It really does

754
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 1: take a community, an institutional like response that is a

755
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: united front. And I also just wanted to say something.

756
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: You know, Sam, you you brought up like the idea

757
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: that when companies like Xbox are just like, oh well,

758
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: you should just get off these platforms if it gets

759
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: too bad. I wish I could get off Twitter, right,

760
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: And if I were wealthy, I would never be on

761
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: Twitter argue with people like come on, you know. The

762
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: reason the thing that keeps me there is that the

763
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: sad reality is for a lot of the kind of

764
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: work that I do and a lot of people that

765
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: I know, do you need to have a social media presence? Right?

766
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: I once had a conversation with someone because I wanted

767
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: to write a book, and the first thing they asked

768
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: me was how many Twitter followers do you have? You know?

769
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: And so and then think it's especially hard for folks

770
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: who are otherwise marginalized or have a harder time getting

771
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 1: a platform, because social media can be a way that

772
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: you can get opportunities that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

773
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 1: And so it's this real kind of catch twenty two

774
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,720
Speaker 1: of like, I don't really enjoy being on Twitter anymore,

775
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: but I feel like I have to be there because

776
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: I know that it can be kind of validating for

777
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: my professional work. And I need that validation because you know,

778
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: I don't work for the New York Times or work

779
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: with Harvard or that kind of thing. And so you know,

780
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: for a lot of us, we need that validation where

781
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: we can get it. But I not enjoy spending time

782
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: on Twitter a lot of the times. It can be

783
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: a real unpleasant experience, but it's one that I feel

784
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: like I I unfortunately sometimes need to be there to

785
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: get that kind of validation. I mean, it's almost like

786
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: a currency is a part of your resume. Now, That's

787
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: that's what exactly what I'm saying. Like it would be

788
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: great if we weren't so dependent, but it's becomes such

789
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: a dependent part of our careers and our livelihoods that

790
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: it's hard not to just like be having to have

791
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: the Internet in order to work. The likelihood of you

792
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: being successful without having that type of connection is is

793
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: not You're not going to be able to proceed or

794
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: move on and move forward, and you need to have

795
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 1: that type of experience. Uh, And you're right, And it's

796
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: amazing the level of what that blue check mark means.

797
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: You know, it is this whole like validating whether or

798
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: not not because you want it or because you have

799
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: to have it, but because you need it for your career. Yeah,

800
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: and to be taken seriously. And it's such an absurd idea,

801
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 1: but that's how far we become involved in the social

802
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: media world. And that's also why having types of harassment

803
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: like this needs to be taken seriously. But people don't

804
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: want to because they don't want to take it seriously.

805
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 1: But you can't walk away from that because it's already

806
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: been established as a part of our world culture. Yeah.

807
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: And I think back in the early days of our company,

808
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 1: I had to respond to every YouTube comment and I

809
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: legitimately went to my boss and said, I think this

810
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: qualifies the sexual harassment and we had to like sit

811
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: down and talk about the legality of if you're going

812
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 1: to make me respond to these comments that are awful, like,

813
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: is that legal? And I think that's the conversation we're

814
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: going to have to continue to have, especially if it's

815
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: a part of your job requirement. And I think that

816
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: the whole idea bridget that, you know, I you find

817
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,919
Speaker 1: Twitter to be often a terrible experience. That should say

818
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: something as as someone who developed a platform. If people

819
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: were telling me I actually really dread your platform. I

820
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: just feel like that's you've got to think about that.

821
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And I want to be clear that I

822
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: actually believe that, particularly for Twitter, that thing of not

823
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 1: enjoying being there, I think that is baked into Twitter's

824
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: functionality because of the way that the algorithm works, things

825
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: that you say that are in inflammatory get much more

826
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: traction than things that you say that are not inflammatory.

827
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: You know, things that you say that are untrue get

828
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: much more traction than things that you say that are true.

829
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: And I think that Twitter, because of the way that

830
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 1: the algorithm works, I think it amplifies inflammatory takes, mean tweets,

831
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: not even things that maybe qualify as harassment, but like

832
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: things that are Yeah, inflammatory, I guess it's the only

833
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: word I can think of for it. And I think

834
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: when you are on a platform where the content that

835
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 1: you're being surfaced most often is content that is inflammatory

836
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: or highly charged or negative, and then the content that

837
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: is positive or thoughtful or nuanced you're seeing less of.

838
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 1: It's no wonder that so many people report Twitter, you know,

839
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: not feeling good, you know. And I think, especially as

840
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: we're with COVID and the quarantine, it's like we're on

841
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: social media so much more, and we're all exhausted and

842
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: stressed and anxious and just like not being our best selves.

843
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 1: And I think it is a recipe for it just

844
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: not being a very good user experience. And it's a

845
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: user experience that is marked by bad faith, criticism, and

846
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: inflammatory contents. And that's how I feel when I'm on Twitter,

847
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, It's like I see things

848
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: that bummed me out and it just makes me so

849
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: sad that that that is the driving, the driving feeling

850
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: of this kind of discourse. And I remember the days

851
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: when Twitter used to feel hilarious, like the early days

852
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: of Black Twitter. Something would happen and we will be

853
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: laughing about stuff for weeks. It was so much fun.

854
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: Or when like a bad movie was premiering on Lifetime

855
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 1: and we're all going to watch it as a family

856
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: and make fun of it. We used to have a blast.

857
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: And I feel like those days are gone, and they

858
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: have been replaced with conversations that are tedious at best

859
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: and like really harmful at worst. And this the days

860
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: where I just watch a mascot who fell over and

861
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: kick get back up. Yes, don't. Well, I know we've

862
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: covered some ground in this one. But did you I

863
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 1: know there were some other examples bought of, like high

864
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: profile examples of online harassment. Do you want to talk

865
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: about those? There's so there's two. I want to mention

866
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: the Washington Post, Sung Min Kim so during the Senate

867
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: confirmation hearing for near A Tandon near A Tannon was

868
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 1: tapped by the Biden administration to leave the Office of

869
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: Budget and Management. Tandon's harsh, critical tweets were cited as

870
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: the reason why some Republican senators would not vote to

871
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: confirm her. Now, this is its own complicated gender story

872
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: on its on its own, but like that's a topic

873
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: for another episode. But Sung Min Kim, who is this journalist?

874
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: She was interviewing Senator Lisa Murkowski about Tandon's tweets, and

875
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: Senator Murkowski said that she had not seen them, and

876
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: so she on her cell phone showed Senator Mikowski some

877
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: of these tweets to to to get her comment. Now,

878
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: this is a completely standard process for journalists, like nothing

879
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: on nothing unusual or an ethical happened. But she was

880
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: photographed showing Senator of Makowski this tweet, and people make

881
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: it seem like she had done, you know something on

882
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: the active color something, you know, something bad, and she

883
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: was like really harshly, harshly harassed for this. And I

884
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: have to say the people who were doing a lot

885
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: of the harassing were folks on the left, folks who

886
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 1: were like, oh, like, you're getting in the way of

887
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: Biden having his his person confirmed. How dare you? And

888
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: so it was pretty harsh to see that. And I

889
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: also want to make sure that it's good that you

890
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 1: know this journalist, she's Asian American, and we know that

891
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: women of color it's harder for us when we face

892
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,479
Speaker 1: online harassment. According to an Amnesty International report, black women

893
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: were most at risk, with the study determining that were

894
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: eighty four percent more likely than white women to experience

895
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: abuse on Twitter. Latin next women were eighty one percent

896
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: more likely, and Asian women were seventy percent more likely.

897
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: And so this stuff is always worse when you're marginalized.

898
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: Like I felt so bad seeing this person just being

899
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,959
Speaker 1: harassed in this very harsh charged way just for doing

900
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: her job, you know. And I also wanted to point

901
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: out the New York Times as Taylor Lawrens, who uh

902
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: Sam I think mentioned earlier that's a situation where it

903
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: really it's just something where it's like, if it was

904
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: happening to me, I would be I don't even know

905
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: what I would be doing. I would be so I

906
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 1: would be so hurt. For International Women's Day back in March,

907
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 1: Taylor Lawrence tweeted, for International Women's Day, please consider supporting

908
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: women and during online harassment. It's not an exaggeration to

909
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 1: say harassment and smear campaigns and I had faced over

910
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: the past year have destroyed my life. No wanted to

911
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: have to go through this. And I bet you can

912
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: guess what happened next to Fox News as Tucker Carlson

913
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: used his huge platform of four point thirty three million viewers,

914
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: literally the highest rated US cable news TV program in history,

915
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: he spent two fold nights just making fun of her.

916
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: It wasn't even a news story. It basically she didn't

917
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: even report anything. She was just said, this is my

918
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: experience as a woman who has faced online harassment, you know,

919
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: stick up for women for International Women's Day. Just that

920
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: one tweet, he did two back to back nights with

921
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 1: segments just making fun of her for, as he put it,

922
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: pretending to be oppressed, right, and so the fact that

923
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 1: he used such a massive platform just to crap on

924
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: a woman for talking about her experience is dealing with harassment.

925
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: I think it just goes to show that when we

926
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: talk about these things, people really don't like it, and

927
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,320
Speaker 1: it can it. Really we need to change that. We

928
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: need to make it so that when we talk about

929
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: our experiences online and speak up about them, we're not attacked. Further,

930
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: that we're listened to and supported, you know, And I

931
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 1: think that's kind of the the ultimate point that I

932
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: want to make in this episode, I guess, is that

933
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: online harassment is very real. If it impacts you or

934
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: hurts you or otherwise makes you feel like you are

935
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: not able to show up as your full best self,

936
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: that is a completely valid way to feel. And you

937
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: shouldn't let people make you feel like you're being a baby,

938
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 1: or that you're whining, or that you should just turn

939
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 1: off the computer or just log off. You know, if

940
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 1: it if it gets to you, you know, it is harmful.

941
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: It is silencing, and it's something that none of us

942
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 1: should be dealing with. And I just want to make

943
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: that very clear that the kind of things that these

944
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: women are going through, it's just not a acceptible right,

945
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: and yeah, it was incredible just to see the responses.

946
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: It made no sense. I was really like, who is this?

947
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: Was she stand up comedian? Before, right before I knew

948
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 1: what was going on, I was like, did she say

949
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: something as a stand up comedian, because you know, that's

950
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: usually kind of the level that people will go after

951
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: something you said something offensive in a joke. That's what

952
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: I was like, maybe she did that. And just realizing

953
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: all she said was be nice, that was enough to

954
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 1: elicit all of this hate, just because I was just

955
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: kind of dumbfounded in that sense of because she's a

956
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: notable person, meaning she has some kind of platform, she's

957
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: a journalist, and all she said was I've gone through

958
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: some bad things, not even talking about anything specific, and

959
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 1: then please be nice. And that's the And that brought

960
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: the ire of one very angry white white man who

961
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: apparently is just angry about women period and marginalized people period.

962
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: I mean, we see how dangerous it is when white

963
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 1: men get angry and like and like this is this

964
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: is a great example. Two nights and mind this was

965
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 1: two nights where big news was happening. You know, so

966
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: many other huge things are happening in the world, and

967
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: you're gonna spend two nights talking about a journalist who

968
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: tweeted about her experience and telling people to be nice,

969
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: really right. And I had to like her willing to

970
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,240
Speaker 1: back other women who are going through things, especially journalists,

971
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: including you know, rallying behind Brendan Smith. It was beautiful.

972
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: I had love to see when things do show because

973
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,720
Speaker 1: when she did that, those who realize what is happening

974
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: are gonna fight even harder. And and that's what he's

975
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: I don't think he knew what was going to happen,

976
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: was that you kind of gave a credibility as a

977
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: journalist of itself, end of story. No matter what, you

978
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: gave her enough credibility to the rest of us who

979
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 1: know who what he is doing, that she is a

980
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: fierce individual to be afraid of For him, obviously, he's

981
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: fearing something here. And I love seeing that she was

982
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: rallying behind Smith and being like, hey, I got your back.

983
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's the of the Like obviously, I

984
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 1: hate seeing people being harassed in this way, but that's

985
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: been this sort of silver lining, is seeing women come

986
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 1: out and like just go hard for other women, you know,

987
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,879
Speaker 1: women lifting as they climb and be like, listen, girl,

988
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: I've been harassed. I see your going through it. I

989
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: support you, and that is really I think it has

990
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: been beautiful to see. You know, there is nothing like

991
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: the power of women being in community with each other.

992
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: When we come together in support of each other and

993
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: when we're pissed off. Also we can take on the

994
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson's of the world, the people who have these

995
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: huge platforms and all this institutional power. The power of

996
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: women being in community with each other is a powerful, powerful,

997
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,240
Speaker 1: special thing and it has been very endearing to witness

998
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: that inter real time. Yeah, yeah, very very much. So

999
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Bridget, as always for being here.

1000
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 1: You always bring such great conversation. Um, where can the

1001
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 1: good listeners find you? Well? Again, have to shout out

1002
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: Liz Lens who was an amazing journalist who really helped

1003
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:05,760
Speaker 1: me put together all of my ideas for this episode.

1004
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: If you want to hear from Liz herself, you can

1005
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: check out the most recent episode of my podcast. There

1006
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 1: are no girls on the Internet on this very network,

1007
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 1: and yeah, subscribe you would love to have you And

1008
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: you can find me on Instagram at Bridget Marie in

1009
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 1: d c and on Twitter at Bridget Marie. I know

1010
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: I just said I hate being on Twitter and you

1011
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: just don't follow me. I guess, yeah, provide support and

1012
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: I guess gifts of mascots following over I missed those

1013
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: months in deleted. I actually had one say and I

1014
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:43,240
Speaker 1: got deleted. I was very sad about this, the struggle.

1015
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: I think we can help you with this, Okay, But yes,

1016
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: Bridget you, I follow you, and I think you have

1017
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: some really great messages. And I always love seeing your

1018
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: perspective because even though it is an awful, awful place

1019
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: to be, you put up some good, good resources. So

1020
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: thank you you. Yeah, and the one of my idols online,

1021
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: she says, when you are online, don't turn to the darkness,

1022
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 1: bring the light. So I always try to bring the

1023
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 1: light on social media awesome and listeners. If you would

1024
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: like to your email as you can our email Stuff

1025
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: Media at mom Stuff at ihart media dot com. You

1026
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or

1027
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You thinks It's

1028
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 1: always start a super producer, Christina, thank you and thanks

1029
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff I've Never told you. The

1030
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 1: protection of I Heart Radio For more podcast or my

1031
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 1: heart radio, visit that I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

1032
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.