1 00:00:14,076 --> 00:00:32,276 Speaker 1: Pushing it. I'm Khalil Jabron Muhammad. 2 00:00:32,596 --> 00:00:35,676 Speaker 2: I'm Ben Austin. We are two best friends, one black, 3 00:00:35,996 --> 00:00:36,556 Speaker 2: one white. 4 00:00:36,796 --> 00:00:39,756 Speaker 3: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is 5 00:00:39,796 --> 00:00:41,556 Speaker 3: some of my best friends. 6 00:00:41,196 --> 00:00:44,556 Speaker 2: Are some of my best friends? Are some of my 7 00:00:44,556 --> 00:00:45,236 Speaker 2: best friends? Are you? 8 00:00:45,316 --> 00:00:45,676 Speaker 4: Khalil? 9 00:00:46,996 --> 00:00:49,276 Speaker 2: On this show, we wrestle with the challenges and the 10 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:52,916 Speaker 2: absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. 11 00:00:53,356 --> 00:00:57,276 Speaker 3: And today we're talking with Tony Griffin. She's an architect 12 00:00:57,476 --> 00:01:01,316 Speaker 3: and urban planner who teaches at the Harvard School of Design. 13 00:01:01,916 --> 00:01:05,556 Speaker 3: She's the founder of the design firm urban ac and 14 00:01:05,636 --> 00:01:08,956 Speaker 3: leads a research team called Just City Lab, both of 15 00:01:09,156 --> 00:01:12,036 Speaker 3: which center spatial and social justice at the heart of 16 00:01:12,156 --> 00:01:15,716 Speaker 3: urban planning and design for community revitalization. 17 00:01:16,956 --> 00:01:21,636 Speaker 2: Man Tony is family, and she has been reimagining cities 18 00:01:21,876 --> 00:01:26,036 Speaker 2: more creatively and even more artistically lately. In fact, she 19 00:01:26,236 --> 00:01:30,116 Speaker 2: has a show right now at the Venice Architecture BIONALI 20 00:01:30,516 --> 00:01:34,116 Speaker 2: called Land Narratives Fantastic Futures. And we're going to talk 21 00:01:34,396 --> 00:01:37,676 Speaker 2: with her about her show and really about how to 22 00:01:37,756 --> 00:01:39,796 Speaker 2: re envision cities in America. 23 00:01:40,596 --> 00:01:44,196 Speaker 1: Yes, we're talking about the future, folks, that still a. 24 00:01:44,276 --> 00:02:06,436 Speaker 2: Future is now the future is now so Tony. Thank 25 00:02:06,516 --> 00:02:08,236 Speaker 2: you so much for being on Some of my best 26 00:02:08,236 --> 00:02:13,476 Speaker 2: friends are I just want to start by saying, you 27 00:02:13,556 --> 00:02:15,996 Speaker 2: and Khalil obviously know each other from Harvard, where you're 28 00:02:15,996 --> 00:02:19,676 Speaker 2: both on faculty. I met you several years ago. I 29 00:02:19,756 --> 00:02:21,876 Speaker 2: was writing a story for the New York Times magazine 30 00:02:21,916 --> 00:02:26,196 Speaker 2: about Detroit and you know, the kind of remaking the 31 00:02:26,236 --> 00:02:29,676 Speaker 2: building up of Detroit again. And I heard about you 32 00:02:29,716 --> 00:02:32,156 Speaker 2: because you wrote the master plan for this redesign and 33 00:02:32,356 --> 00:02:35,396 Speaker 2: I interviewed you, this brilliant person. And then like two 34 00:02:35,556 --> 00:02:38,756 Speaker 2: or three years later, I go to my uncle's house 35 00:02:39,276 --> 00:02:41,356 Speaker 2: with my wife's uncle on the far South Side to 36 00:02:41,396 --> 00:02:45,676 Speaker 2: watch some football, and there you are. My wife's uncle 37 00:02:45,876 --> 00:02:47,156 Speaker 2: is also your uncle. 38 00:02:47,476 --> 00:02:51,876 Speaker 1: My uncle Willy. Yeah. 39 00:02:51,916 --> 00:02:55,596 Speaker 2: Like it turned out that we were related through marriage. 40 00:02:56,116 --> 00:03:00,596 Speaker 5: We're like cousins, sort of cousins by marriage. 41 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:01,916 Speaker 2: Wow. 42 00:03:01,996 --> 00:03:02,476 Speaker 1: I love that. 43 00:03:03,516 --> 00:03:03,756 Speaker 6: Yeah. 44 00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:06,596 Speaker 5: No, I mean it was like one of those bizarre 45 00:03:06,676 --> 00:03:10,556 Speaker 5: like Okay, how did you get here? And of course 46 00:03:10,596 --> 00:03:17,716 Speaker 5: you know, Ben stands out in the room because. 47 00:03:15,116 --> 00:03:17,676 Speaker 1: Because he's so tall. 48 00:03:22,196 --> 00:03:26,116 Speaker 3: Well, I've been at a few of those, Danielle extended 49 00:03:26,156 --> 00:03:28,956 Speaker 3: family get togethers over the years, particularly when I was 50 00:03:29,036 --> 00:03:34,836 Speaker 3: high school. But you and I actually met on campus 51 00:03:34,916 --> 00:03:36,996 Speaker 3: at Harvard. You at the Design School. I'm at the 52 00:03:37,036 --> 00:03:39,276 Speaker 3: Kennedy School, And actually one of the first times we 53 00:03:39,396 --> 00:03:41,716 Speaker 3: kind of got to know each other. You guest lectured 54 00:03:42,516 --> 00:03:44,876 Speaker 3: for a series we were doing on the history of redlining. 55 00:03:45,236 --> 00:03:48,196 Speaker 3: You are our featured expert to talk about it. So 56 00:03:48,476 --> 00:03:51,956 Speaker 3: let's just jump into this conversation because so much of 57 00:03:51,996 --> 00:03:55,316 Speaker 3: your work gets to the heart of the themes around 58 00:03:55,356 --> 00:03:58,676 Speaker 3: the absurdities of race, around systemic racism. You're an architect 59 00:03:58,796 --> 00:04:02,796 Speaker 3: by education. You've made a career of urban planning and 60 00:04:02,836 --> 00:04:08,276 Speaker 3: design trying to reimagine how we can make cities better, 61 00:04:08,316 --> 00:04:11,716 Speaker 3: how we can create just cities. So let's start with Detroit, 62 00:04:11,836 --> 00:04:14,476 Speaker 3: kind of the poster city for everything that's gone wrong 63 00:04:14,676 --> 00:04:17,236 Speaker 3: in this country. What did you do in Detroit to 64 00:04:17,716 --> 00:04:18,796 Speaker 3: get us back on track? 65 00:04:19,596 --> 00:04:24,956 Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, you know, my first introduction to Detroit 66 00:04:25,196 --> 00:04:28,836 Speaker 5: was actually as an architect. I was still working for 67 00:04:29,036 --> 00:04:32,716 Speaker 5: the very large architecture firm Skidmore, Oins and Are in Chicago, 68 00:04:33,276 --> 00:04:36,796 Speaker 5: and we were working with General Motors. And this is 69 00:04:36,836 --> 00:04:40,836 Speaker 5: in the mid nineties. They had just purchased the Renaissance 70 00:04:40,836 --> 00:04:44,716 Speaker 5: Center from the Ford Motor Company. Well, first they made 71 00:04:44,796 --> 00:04:49,236 Speaker 5: this really strategic decision to keep their global headquarters in Detroit, 72 00:04:49,756 --> 00:04:52,116 Speaker 5: that in of itself was huge, and to move in 73 00:04:52,196 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 5: from the suburbs and stay in the city. And of course, 74 00:04:55,596 --> 00:05:00,276 Speaker 5: in the mid nineties, Detroit was already bleeding population experiencing, 75 00:05:00,476 --> 00:05:03,156 Speaker 5: you know, a trajectory of continued economic laws. So it 76 00:05:03,196 --> 00:05:07,036 Speaker 5: was a very big deal for this global headquarters to 77 00:05:07,076 --> 00:05:11,476 Speaker 5: be situated here. They hired our firm to help them 78 00:05:11,516 --> 00:05:14,996 Speaker 5: reposition the property and transform. 79 00:05:14,516 --> 00:05:17,716 Speaker 3: The Renaissance is a hotel, I'm not a Renaissance center. 80 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:21,076 Speaker 5: The Renaissance Center is one of these classic for any 81 00:05:21,156 --> 00:05:25,356 Speaker 5: architects listening, John Portman Buildings, who's a famous architects in 82 00:05:25,396 --> 00:05:29,276 Speaker 5: the seventies, So if you know pe Tree Towers in 83 00:05:29,676 --> 00:05:33,836 Speaker 5: Atlanta or the Bonna venture in la Is, basically the 84 00:05:33,876 --> 00:05:37,516 Speaker 5: same structure replicated and they were really like fortresses, and 85 00:05:37,556 --> 00:05:42,156 Speaker 5: they were built in the seventies in urban areas when 86 00:05:42,276 --> 00:05:45,116 Speaker 5: urban areas were declining. Long story short of that is 87 00:05:45,196 --> 00:05:47,476 Speaker 5: we were hired to help with the repositioning of that 88 00:05:48,996 --> 00:05:52,636 Speaker 5: property as the architects, and it was the first time 89 00:05:52,676 --> 00:05:55,836 Speaker 5: that I began to understand through a project the role 90 00:05:55,876 --> 00:06:00,796 Speaker 5: of the architect as a consultant designer. So we put 91 00:06:00,796 --> 00:06:04,076 Speaker 5: the ideas forward, but our influence to ultimately make the 92 00:06:04,156 --> 00:06:07,716 Speaker 5: decision to how to invest in this strategy, which scheme 93 00:06:07,836 --> 00:06:10,956 Speaker 5: to take how as folds into the city was not 94 00:06:11,156 --> 00:06:13,556 Speaker 5: ours as a consulting architect, And it was the first 95 00:06:13,596 --> 00:06:15,476 Speaker 5: time I was like, you know what, I want to 96 00:06:15,476 --> 00:06:17,876 Speaker 5: be on that side of the table, because no one 97 00:06:17,956 --> 00:06:20,516 Speaker 5: on that side of the table at the time. You 98 00:06:20,956 --> 00:06:25,916 Speaker 5: had design background, had design language, was really skilled in 99 00:06:26,036 --> 00:06:28,076 Speaker 5: designing the city. And it was the first time I 100 00:06:28,156 --> 00:06:31,356 Speaker 5: realized the makers of cities. 101 00:06:31,356 --> 00:06:32,756 Speaker 6: Are not just architects. 102 00:06:33,076 --> 00:06:39,756 Speaker 5: It's mayors, it's corporations, civic leaders, developers have really strong influence. 103 00:06:40,356 --> 00:06:44,436 Speaker 5: So that grounds me in the career that I've had 104 00:06:44,516 --> 00:06:49,076 Speaker 5: since that time and wanting to put my expertise, and 105 00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:53,356 Speaker 5: particularly as a black woman with this expertise in design 106 00:06:53,476 --> 00:06:57,636 Speaker 5: and urbanism, to be on the side of decision making 107 00:06:58,116 --> 00:07:02,036 Speaker 5: and power to shape the way cities are built. So 108 00:07:02,436 --> 00:07:05,596 Speaker 5: I went on to work for two mayors in Washington, 109 00:07:05,676 --> 00:07:08,396 Speaker 5: d C. As a deputy planning director and then served 110 00:07:08,436 --> 00:07:13,556 Speaker 5: as Corey Booker, his first planning director and his mayor Jersey. 111 00:07:14,436 --> 00:07:19,236 Speaker 5: That gave me this experience of working inside the power 112 00:07:19,316 --> 00:07:23,156 Speaker 5: structures that really shape and design cities. So you know, 113 00:07:23,316 --> 00:07:28,676 Speaker 5: I have worked in these progressively challenged cities, Detroit and 114 00:07:28,716 --> 00:07:31,836 Speaker 5: then DC that was just coming out of financial receivership, 115 00:07:32,516 --> 00:07:36,116 Speaker 5: Newark that was coming through a lot of political crisis, 116 00:07:36,236 --> 00:07:39,316 Speaker 5: and that was just at the time of the recession. Now, 117 00:07:39,436 --> 00:07:44,356 Speaker 5: as running my own practice, how do you look at 118 00:07:44,596 --> 00:07:48,076 Speaker 5: the economic trajectory of Detroit that at that time had 119 00:07:48,276 --> 00:07:52,076 Speaker 5: lost a significant amount of his economic engine. 120 00:07:52,196 --> 00:07:54,036 Speaker 1: This is about a decade ago, right, this. 121 00:07:53,916 --> 00:07:56,356 Speaker 6: Is this is ten years exactly. 122 00:07:57,796 --> 00:08:02,356 Speaker 5: How do I, as a planner and designer think about 123 00:08:02,676 --> 00:08:07,756 Speaker 5: the revitalization of a city that has a significant amount 124 00:08:07,756 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 5: of population seven hundred that people and what is the 125 00:08:11,636 --> 00:08:13,836 Speaker 5: role of design and planning. 126 00:08:13,516 --> 00:08:15,276 Speaker 2: That's down from two million at its peak. 127 00:08:15,396 --> 00:08:17,156 Speaker 6: That's right, one point eight at its peak. 128 00:08:17,236 --> 00:08:19,436 Speaker 3: Then I wanted to ask you. You wrote this amazing 129 00:08:19,516 --> 00:08:21,076 Speaker 3: New York Times magazine piece. 130 00:08:21,636 --> 00:08:22,476 Speaker 1: Really proud of you. 131 00:08:24,036 --> 00:08:27,356 Speaker 3: It was right at the time I think that Tony 132 00:08:27,676 --> 00:08:30,596 Speaker 3: was coming into the city and you had the cover 133 00:08:30,796 --> 00:08:35,236 Speaker 3: story about Detroit and it was about the possibility through 134 00:08:35,356 --> 00:08:37,996 Speaker 3: one of the richest men in this country, Dan Gilbert, 135 00:08:38,116 --> 00:08:40,156 Speaker 3: and his business is quick and loans to come in 136 00:08:40,196 --> 00:08:43,396 Speaker 3: and revitalize the city. So you know, from your vantage 137 00:08:43,396 --> 00:08:45,476 Speaker 3: point when you were on the ground reporting, What were 138 00:08:45,476 --> 00:08:46,396 Speaker 3: you seeing happening? 139 00:08:46,556 --> 00:08:49,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I'm actually interested in exactly what Tony 140 00:08:49,476 --> 00:08:52,636 Speaker 2: is talking about. Like Dan Gilbert drew me into the 141 00:08:52,676 --> 00:08:56,236 Speaker 2: city because you know, there's this phenomenon that's happening in 142 00:08:56,276 --> 00:08:58,316 Speaker 2: cities all across the country where there's a kind of 143 00:08:58,356 --> 00:09:02,876 Speaker 2: rebirth of the inner city and corporations are headquartering again 144 00:09:02,996 --> 00:09:07,396 Speaker 2: in cities. Like Dan Gilbert, who is from Detroit. Originally 145 00:09:07,556 --> 00:09:10,276 Speaker 2: he had a suburban business and he found out that 146 00:09:10,316 --> 00:09:13,236 Speaker 2: he just couldn't recruit young talent if he was in 147 00:09:13,276 --> 00:09:16,076 Speaker 2: the suburbs. Young people want to be in cities, and 148 00:09:16,116 --> 00:09:18,916 Speaker 2: so he wanted to headquarter downtown. He had to headquarter downtown. 149 00:09:19,076 --> 00:09:22,636 Speaker 2: But he's not talking about the long time citizens of 150 00:09:22,716 --> 00:09:26,116 Speaker 2: cities and the peripheries, And so I was interested, like, 151 00:09:26,156 --> 00:09:28,516 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, Like this guy is buying like sixty 152 00:09:28,596 --> 00:09:33,236 Speaker 2: of these beautiful skyscrapers that Tony is talking about, like masterpieces. 153 00:09:33,556 --> 00:09:35,876 Speaker 2: That's kind of wild. One person is owning like all 154 00:09:35,916 --> 00:09:39,356 Speaker 2: these properties, and we're seeing this revitalization downtown. But then 155 00:09:39,436 --> 00:09:41,516 Speaker 2: like how does that go out into the corridors, how 156 00:09:41,556 --> 00:09:44,356 Speaker 2: does that reach the neighborhoods. And so my piece then 157 00:09:44,436 --> 00:09:47,036 Speaker 2: like started in the center, but then tried to move 158 00:09:47,076 --> 00:09:49,396 Speaker 2: out and see, Like what Tony is seeing is this, 159 00:09:49,756 --> 00:09:52,036 Speaker 2: if you burnish the city center like a gem, if 160 00:09:52,036 --> 00:09:54,956 Speaker 2: it radiates like the sun, is it strong enough that 161 00:09:55,036 --> 00:09:58,276 Speaker 2: it actually like you know, like those rays actually actually 162 00:09:58,316 --> 00:10:02,956 Speaker 2: reached the neighborhood literary right, And usually the answer is no, 163 00:10:03,836 --> 00:10:06,196 Speaker 2: like not at all. Like we have a tale of 164 00:10:06,236 --> 00:10:08,356 Speaker 2: two cities in most in most you know, in the 165 00:10:08,356 --> 00:10:09,676 Speaker 2: inner city of Mayora. 166 00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:12,876 Speaker 5: But you know what's interesting about Detroita is those acquisitions 167 00:10:12,916 --> 00:10:17,076 Speaker 5: that Gilbert made downtown when the market was still depressed, 168 00:10:17,676 --> 00:10:22,076 Speaker 5: you know, afforded him an opportunity to really experiment with 169 00:10:22,236 --> 00:10:27,916 Speaker 5: tendancy startup businesses, black owned businesses that reflect the majority 170 00:10:27,956 --> 00:10:30,716 Speaker 5: of demography of the city. How do you start to 171 00:10:30,796 --> 00:10:35,516 Speaker 5: pilot that through the space that you have downtown so 172 00:10:35,556 --> 00:10:38,196 Speaker 5: that it's not an either or proposition. But it's still 173 00:10:38,236 --> 00:10:41,036 Speaker 5: a large city, right, so it's not going anywhere. What 174 00:10:41,356 --> 00:10:47,076 Speaker 5: had to be different? There were generations of black households 175 00:10:47,116 --> 00:10:51,956 Speaker 5: and businesses that were keeping that city afloat what would 176 00:10:51,956 --> 00:10:55,036 Speaker 5: it look like for them and what they were doing 177 00:10:55,116 --> 00:10:58,636 Speaker 5: and how they were holding on to properties that their 178 00:10:58,636 --> 00:11:01,876 Speaker 5: great grandfathers had bought coming out of the great migration 179 00:11:02,356 --> 00:11:08,156 Speaker 5: or legacy businesses. How do we factor that resiliency into planning, 180 00:11:08,476 --> 00:11:11,156 Speaker 5: don't you downto to reflect the culture of the city. 181 00:11:11,196 --> 00:11:14,996 Speaker 5: And so I think there's still this challenge of how 182 00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 5: are we intentionally cultivating pushing in black owned businesses, women 183 00:11:22,476 --> 00:11:26,156 Speaker 5: owned business a diversity of businesses that are local and 184 00:11:26,396 --> 00:11:30,716 Speaker 5: national that start to create a vibrancy in Detroit. And 185 00:11:30,716 --> 00:11:32,676 Speaker 5: there's still a lot of space and I think a 186 00:11:32,716 --> 00:11:35,516 Speaker 5: lot of play in the market where that can be 187 00:11:35,556 --> 00:11:36,516 Speaker 5: showing up. 188 00:11:36,876 --> 00:11:39,516 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And Detroit is sort of, you know, became 189 00:11:39,596 --> 00:11:41,316 Speaker 2: this kind of place where you could experiment in the 190 00:11:41,316 --> 00:11:43,076 Speaker 2: way the market's s and solo that people are like, 191 00:11:43,196 --> 00:11:44,836 Speaker 2: it can't go any lower, Let me buy in and 192 00:11:44,876 --> 00:11:46,196 Speaker 2: do these kind of creative things. 193 00:11:46,316 --> 00:11:49,116 Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, So we had really had to lean into well, 194 00:11:49,836 --> 00:11:52,236 Speaker 5: what is Detroit's new economy? 195 00:11:53,476 --> 00:11:55,836 Speaker 6: What does the new neighborhood need to look like? 196 00:11:55,916 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 5: When you've got all this population loss and one hundred 197 00:11:59,796 --> 00:12:04,516 Speaker 5: thousand vacant properties and eighty thousand vacant homes. If you 198 00:12:04,556 --> 00:12:07,116 Speaker 5: squish all that together, it was about the size of 199 00:12:07,156 --> 00:12:10,876 Speaker 5: the island of Manhattan in terms of square mileage of vacancy. 200 00:12:11,756 --> 00:12:15,476 Speaker 5: Maybe we had to think about a new definition of 201 00:12:15,516 --> 00:12:20,436 Speaker 5: what a neighborhood looked like, different types of uses for 202 00:12:20,556 --> 00:12:26,156 Speaker 5: vacant land, blue green infrastructure, How neighbors could be stewards 203 00:12:26,276 --> 00:12:31,156 Speaker 5: of that land, how you might plan for bigger lot sizes, 204 00:12:31,556 --> 00:12:37,196 Speaker 5: different configurations of housing, how to invest in different neighborhoods 205 00:12:37,356 --> 00:12:39,436 Speaker 5: differently given those conditions. 206 00:12:39,516 --> 00:12:42,716 Speaker 2: So what does that mean to sort of change the 207 00:12:42,796 --> 00:12:46,636 Speaker 2: actual sort of infrastructure and think about land reclaiming a 208 00:12:46,676 --> 00:12:47,316 Speaker 2: lot of the city. 209 00:12:48,156 --> 00:12:51,116 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it's still important to the narrative of 210 00:12:51,156 --> 00:12:55,636 Speaker 5: that work to remember that the condition of Detroit ten 211 00:12:55,716 --> 00:13:01,676 Speaker 5: years ago and even today happened over sixty years of time, right, 212 00:13:02,356 --> 00:13:07,116 Speaker 5: and so for it to grow back to anywhere close 213 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:10,356 Speaker 5: to one pointy million people, well, that's not going to 214 00:13:10,436 --> 00:13:15,836 Speaker 5: happen in twenty years. So the plan was a framework 215 00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:22,316 Speaker 5: to plan for a vibrant, healthy city recognizing that in 216 00:13:22,396 --> 00:13:24,756 Speaker 5: twenty years, all of a sudden, all of that vacant 217 00:13:24,836 --> 00:13:28,356 Speaker 5: land is going to be developed in the same way. Right, 218 00:13:28,396 --> 00:13:32,516 Speaker 5: So we ended up coming up with different neighborhood typologies 219 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:37,036 Speaker 5: tie to how the city should think about investments in 220 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:42,356 Speaker 5: infrastructure and investments in development so that you were strengthening 221 00:13:42,436 --> 00:13:48,596 Speaker 5: in growing areas that could in ten years feel vibrant 222 00:13:48,636 --> 00:13:53,916 Speaker 5: and whole. So the other thing that we had the 223 00:13:53,916 --> 00:13:56,556 Speaker 5: opportunity to look at, is this the moment for a 224 00:13:56,596 --> 00:14:01,676 Speaker 5: city like that to really rethink how it manages its infrastructure, 225 00:14:01,836 --> 00:14:06,156 Speaker 5: you know, to accommodate the shifts in climate and water 226 00:14:06,316 --> 00:14:10,476 Speaker 5: and storm and heat in a different way. Should we 227 00:14:10,556 --> 00:14:16,516 Speaker 5: be rebuilding big pipes underground for stormwater management anymore? Or 228 00:14:16,516 --> 00:14:19,716 Speaker 5: should we be looking at something that is more adapted 229 00:14:19,756 --> 00:14:22,716 Speaker 5: to the climate moment that we're in. So I think 230 00:14:22,756 --> 00:14:25,196 Speaker 5: what we were starting to do ten years ago was 231 00:14:25,276 --> 00:14:29,956 Speaker 5: to think about not just vacant land and making more 232 00:14:30,076 --> 00:14:34,356 Speaker 5: recreation or open space or even community gardens, but how 233 00:14:34,396 --> 00:14:38,356 Speaker 5: can it actually be built into the infrastructure of the 234 00:14:38,396 --> 00:14:42,596 Speaker 5: city such that maybe in fifty years it becomes the 235 00:14:42,636 --> 00:14:45,316 Speaker 5: place where we all want to migrate to because it 236 00:14:45,396 --> 00:14:46,916 Speaker 5: has been climate adapted. 237 00:14:48,316 --> 00:14:51,236 Speaker 3: I love that in some of your work you can 238 00:14:51,276 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 3: go online our listeners and see some of the images 239 00:14:54,236 --> 00:14:57,596 Speaker 3: of surface lakes and planned reservoirs and areas that had 240 00:14:57,596 --> 00:15:00,196 Speaker 3: otherwise been just a concrete. 241 00:14:59,836 --> 00:15:01,716 Speaker 1: Asphalt place. 242 00:15:02,236 --> 00:15:07,156 Speaker 3: And that's such a powerful image to imagine for the future. 243 00:15:07,156 --> 00:15:10,356 Speaker 3: Of a place like Detroit where you are building, as 244 00:15:10,396 --> 00:15:14,476 Speaker 3: you say, a sustainable infrastructure. Well, listen, we've heard a 245 00:15:14,516 --> 00:15:17,916 Speaker 3: lot about what's happened in Detroit. There's some consistent themes 246 00:15:17,956 --> 00:15:19,956 Speaker 3: that are going to carry forward in other places about 247 00:15:19,996 --> 00:15:23,316 Speaker 3: who gets to benefit from this infrastructure in the future. 248 00:15:23,916 --> 00:15:26,156 Speaker 3: So we'll come back and we're going to talk about 249 00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:28,116 Speaker 3: some other places and what's going on there. 250 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:54,996 Speaker 7: We'll be right back after the break. 251 00:16:01,756 --> 00:16:03,796 Speaker 2: We are back on. Some of my best friends are 252 00:16:03,796 --> 00:16:06,916 Speaker 2: with Tony Griffin. All right, Tony, I want to talk 253 00:16:06,996 --> 00:16:10,996 Speaker 2: about Chicago, where we're all from. We are all Southsiders. 254 00:16:11,156 --> 00:16:12,996 Speaker 1: Didn't take us long to get to Chicago. 255 00:16:13,396 --> 00:16:18,676 Speaker 2: No, And I want to talk about ken Wood. Kenwood, 256 00:16:18,996 --> 00:16:22,196 Speaker 2: I want to talk about last weekend. We had a 257 00:16:22,316 --> 00:16:27,116 Speaker 2: NASCAR race here last weekend where basically Lake Shore Drive, 258 00:16:27,756 --> 00:16:33,356 Speaker 2: Michigan Avenue, and Columbus Drive in right around Millennium Park 259 00:16:33,396 --> 00:16:36,716 Speaker 2: and Grant Park were turned into a NASCAR track. 260 00:16:36,836 --> 00:16:38,996 Speaker 3: Was this a stunt or were people going one hundred 261 00:16:39,036 --> 00:16:39,956 Speaker 3: miles an hour on these. 262 00:16:39,876 --> 00:16:41,436 Speaker 2: Streets two hundred miles an hour? 263 00:16:41,636 --> 00:16:46,156 Speaker 3: You're lying, I didn't see any of this. That sounds bananas. 264 00:16:46,156 --> 00:16:50,076 Speaker 2: With giant bleachers set up all around it. So public 265 00:16:50,196 --> 00:16:55,236 Speaker 2: land being privatized for this event, and it was stunning. 266 00:16:55,876 --> 00:16:59,036 Speaker 2: These cars come around to turn, you know, from Michigan Avenue. 267 00:16:59,076 --> 00:17:01,156 Speaker 2: Now they're on Columbus Drive and behind them is the 268 00:17:01,156 --> 00:17:04,716 Speaker 2: skyline of Chicago in a NASCAR race, And you could 269 00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:07,156 Speaker 2: think of all the ways that this could benefit a city, 270 00:17:07,316 --> 00:17:11,276 Speaker 2: right like, Chicago has this really tough reputation. Outsiders think 271 00:17:11,316 --> 00:17:13,196 Speaker 2: about crime and you know, is it a place to visit? 272 00:17:13,556 --> 00:17:15,876 Speaker 2: And suddenly they're seeing it, you know, a NASCAR type 273 00:17:15,916 --> 00:17:18,116 Speaker 2: fans are seeing them be like, oh man, this city 274 00:17:18,236 --> 00:17:21,716 Speaker 2: is amazing. And again, Tony, it's one of these ideas 275 00:17:21,716 --> 00:17:25,436 Speaker 2: of like, you know, funding the center, the center is 276 00:17:25,436 --> 00:17:28,756 Speaker 2: going to thrive. So you have this race here. The 277 00:17:28,876 --> 00:17:31,796 Speaker 2: idea is it's supposed to bring in tourist dollars and 278 00:17:31,996 --> 00:17:35,516 Speaker 2: it makes downtown look beautiful. But for the rest of us, 279 00:17:35,636 --> 00:17:38,916 Speaker 2: it's a hassle. It's a hassle for actual Chicagoans. And 280 00:17:39,116 --> 00:17:41,716 Speaker 2: very few people away from the center, out in the 281 00:17:41,716 --> 00:17:46,516 Speaker 2: neighborhoods are attending or participating in any way. So we're 282 00:17:46,556 --> 00:17:50,236 Speaker 2: supposed to believe there's like some trickle down effect out 283 00:17:50,276 --> 00:17:53,516 Speaker 2: to these neighborhoods far from downtown. Come on, I'm not 284 00:17:53,556 --> 00:17:54,036 Speaker 2: buying it. 285 00:17:54,996 --> 00:17:58,556 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, just to touch on NASCAR for a second, 286 00:17:58,596 --> 00:18:00,916 Speaker 5: I mean, it's totally bizarre. 287 00:18:01,076 --> 00:18:03,876 Speaker 1: I can't get over it either. I'm still like what 288 00:18:03,916 --> 00:18:04,516 Speaker 1: the hell. 289 00:18:04,756 --> 00:18:05,796 Speaker 6: Like what? 290 00:18:07,236 --> 00:18:08,716 Speaker 5: But as you said, you know, I saw a couple 291 00:18:08,756 --> 00:18:11,276 Speaker 5: of image of it too, and it was like, oh, well, wow, 292 00:18:11,436 --> 00:18:12,716 Speaker 5: that's kind of interesting. 293 00:18:12,796 --> 00:18:16,276 Speaker 2: I mean it was it was an advertisement for NASCAR 294 00:18:16,396 --> 00:18:18,956 Speaker 2: and an advertisement at least Chicago, at least as it 295 00:18:18,996 --> 00:18:20,516 Speaker 2: exists as downtown Chicago. 296 00:18:20,596 --> 00:18:21,956 Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, and I guess that. 297 00:18:22,116 --> 00:18:23,756 Speaker 5: You know, they had some of the cars out at 298 00:18:23,796 --> 00:18:27,436 Speaker 5: Disable Museum and so, and they have music on the 299 00:18:27,476 --> 00:18:30,036 Speaker 5: back steps of Disable. My dad goes to every Sunday 300 00:18:30,076 --> 00:18:31,756 Speaker 5: in the summer. So he was like, yeah, I'm going 301 00:18:31,756 --> 00:18:33,036 Speaker 5: to see the NASCAR car. 302 00:18:33,276 --> 00:18:34,916 Speaker 3: Which, by the way, is like one of the blackest 303 00:18:34,956 --> 00:18:38,196 Speaker 3: museums in America. Yes, courting one of the whitest sports 304 00:18:38,196 --> 00:18:39,436 Speaker 3: in America. Just for the record. 305 00:18:40,756 --> 00:18:43,436 Speaker 2: Well, now they had Bubba Wallace out there, the black. 306 00:18:43,316 --> 00:18:45,916 Speaker 6: NASCAR sponsify Bubba. So there you go. 307 00:18:46,596 --> 00:18:49,476 Speaker 1: There you go, all right, Bubba, good good work, Bubba. 308 00:18:49,796 --> 00:18:52,796 Speaker 5: So when you're doing these things that are part of 309 00:18:52,876 --> 00:18:57,676 Speaker 5: the economic development schema of the city, right, do something 310 00:18:57,716 --> 00:19:01,516 Speaker 5: at the center there's a ripple effect of spending hotels, 311 00:19:01,796 --> 00:19:05,316 Speaker 5: stays and things like that. How are we factoring in 312 00:19:06,076 --> 00:19:11,316 Speaker 5: pushing in our local business sector in that space, right? 313 00:19:12,276 --> 00:19:16,836 Speaker 5: How do they directly benefit from that and not just 314 00:19:17,556 --> 00:19:21,516 Speaker 5: coincidentally by hoping a tourist or a visitor goes there. So, 315 00:19:22,596 --> 00:19:28,036 Speaker 5: how does the administration, how do convention and tourism bureaus 316 00:19:28,476 --> 00:19:33,516 Speaker 5: become extremely and hyper proactive to match the rhetoric of 317 00:19:33,916 --> 00:19:38,316 Speaker 5: economic inclusion to these type of big economic development events. 318 00:19:38,796 --> 00:19:43,676 Speaker 5: They are more than one way for equitable economic participation 319 00:19:43,796 --> 00:19:45,876 Speaker 5: to exist, and I think we have to pull the 320 00:19:46,036 --> 00:19:50,796 Speaker 5: levers on all of them simultaneously. When you kind of 321 00:19:50,956 --> 00:19:54,516 Speaker 5: push it back to the neighborhoods and you know, thinking 322 00:19:54,556 --> 00:19:58,116 Speaker 5: about black population loss on the South and West sides 323 00:19:58,156 --> 00:20:05,676 Speaker 5: in Chicago precipitated by public policy actions and real estate 324 00:20:05,876 --> 00:20:12,636 Speaker 5: practices that intentionally push people at out in the last century, right, Yeah. 325 00:20:12,556 --> 00:20:16,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, Tony, that's totally right. The black population in Chicago 326 00:20:16,436 --> 00:20:19,676 Speaker 2: has been leaving the city two hundred and fifty thousand 327 00:20:19,756 --> 00:20:23,796 Speaker 2: people over the last about fifteen to twenty years. That's 328 00:20:23,956 --> 00:20:27,436 Speaker 2: twenty five percent of the black population from its peak 329 00:20:27,476 --> 00:20:29,756 Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties at about one million. 330 00:20:30,276 --> 00:20:34,236 Speaker 5: But that's also coupled with a trajectory of the black 331 00:20:34,276 --> 00:20:39,196 Speaker 5: middle class. And we all have family members who may 332 00:20:39,236 --> 00:20:42,076 Speaker 5: have grown up on the South Side or the West Side, 333 00:20:42,956 --> 00:20:45,876 Speaker 5: maybe gone to school or have a good job. What's 334 00:20:45,916 --> 00:20:49,116 Speaker 5: the first thing they want to do? Buy a house 335 00:20:49,236 --> 00:20:52,756 Speaker 5: in the south suburbs with a lawn and a yard 336 00:20:52,836 --> 00:20:55,836 Speaker 5: and have cookouts and have the family over. It's not 337 00:20:56,036 --> 00:21:00,596 Speaker 5: any different than other populations and their quest for the 338 00:21:00,636 --> 00:21:04,716 Speaker 5: American dream and the upward mobility that America paints as 339 00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:08,116 Speaker 5: urban to suburban, right, So we have to recognize some 340 00:21:08,196 --> 00:21:10,716 Speaker 5: of that is pre rent and part of the ethos 341 00:21:10,756 --> 00:21:14,716 Speaker 5: of the American Dream. There are others, though, who don't 342 00:21:14,756 --> 00:21:18,396 Speaker 5: have the ability to have those choices, and they are 343 00:21:18,596 --> 00:21:21,876 Speaker 5: rooted in place, and some of them who actually do 344 00:21:21,996 --> 00:21:25,916 Speaker 5: own are now becoming, you know, house poor because they're 345 00:21:25,996 --> 00:21:28,636 Speaker 5: unable to maintain the asset that they have. 346 00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:32,116 Speaker 3: Yeah, you mean, like the taxes are going up, maintenance 347 00:21:32,116 --> 00:21:34,356 Speaker 3: costs go up, and the house becomes unaffordable. 348 00:21:34,516 --> 00:21:39,156 Speaker 5: So what we're left with are housing assets that perhaps 349 00:21:39,836 --> 00:21:42,956 Speaker 5: a family a set of parents own, but the kids 350 00:21:42,996 --> 00:21:45,636 Speaker 5: don't want because they don't want to live in Washington 351 00:21:45,676 --> 00:21:50,956 Speaker 5: Park or Englewood anymore. Plus all of this vacancy. What 352 00:21:51,836 --> 00:21:56,916 Speaker 5: my work now is really focused on is getting Black 353 00:21:56,956 --> 00:22:03,316 Speaker 5: Americans to see land as an asset, not a liability 354 00:22:03,356 --> 00:22:07,676 Speaker 5: in those neighborhoods, and also start to think about how 355 00:22:07,916 --> 00:22:12,996 Speaker 5: land is tied to our portfolios of wealth and wealth building, 356 00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:20,516 Speaker 5: and that the opportunity to accumulate wealth, also very American, 357 00:22:20,796 --> 00:22:25,396 Speaker 5: is through land. So how might we begin to think 358 00:22:25,436 --> 00:22:32,796 Speaker 5: about how we own control develop land individually as households 359 00:22:32,836 --> 00:22:36,076 Speaker 5: and families as a part of how we build wealth, 360 00:22:36,636 --> 00:22:39,516 Speaker 5: but also collectively as a community. 361 00:22:40,196 --> 00:22:43,636 Speaker 3: So, Tony, I've been hearing you talk about the choices 362 00:22:43,676 --> 00:22:46,316 Speaker 3: that black people make both in their leaving the city 363 00:22:46,356 --> 00:22:48,676 Speaker 3: but also in search of their own peace of the 364 00:22:48,676 --> 00:22:53,196 Speaker 3: American dream. And then there are these neighborhoods you mentioned Inglewood, Woodlawn. 365 00:22:53,276 --> 00:22:57,276 Speaker 3: These are South side areas, some of which have experienced 366 00:22:57,356 --> 00:23:01,516 Speaker 3: tremendous poverty. They never quite lived up to their promise, 367 00:23:01,636 --> 00:23:03,876 Speaker 3: particularly in the wake of what happened in the nineteen 368 00:23:03,876 --> 00:23:06,196 Speaker 3: seventies and nineteen eighties. They've had lots of crime in 369 00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:10,076 Speaker 3: these communities. But Chicago right now, in the adjacent to 370 00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:14,276 Speaker 3: the same areas you just talked about, is witnessing at 371 00:23:14,396 --> 00:23:20,156 Speaker 3: least a half billion dollar development project best known for 372 00:23:20,236 --> 00:23:24,996 Speaker 3: the former president, which will house his papers, a library, museum, 373 00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:29,276 Speaker 3: the Albama Foundation. Here is this massive investment project half 374 00:23:29,276 --> 00:23:32,076 Speaker 3: billion dollars on the South side of Chicago, surrounded by 375 00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:35,116 Speaker 3: black people. What are they getting right in the way 376 00:23:35,116 --> 00:23:38,116 Speaker 3: that you understand what makes a just city? And what 377 00:23:38,156 --> 00:23:40,396 Speaker 3: are they getting wrong in the way that you're trying 378 00:23:40,436 --> 00:23:42,316 Speaker 3: to correct for the mistakes of the past? 379 00:23:43,196 --> 00:23:51,436 Speaker 5: Okay, so let's talk about the Presidential Center first. A 380 00:23:51,436 --> 00:23:53,876 Speaker 5: few things that I know that I think they're getting 381 00:23:54,036 --> 00:23:58,676 Speaker 5: right is as they are moving through the design and 382 00:23:58,716 --> 00:24:05,676 Speaker 5: development process of the center, they have made effort to 383 00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:08,116 Speaker 5: do a little bit of what I was talking about, 384 00:24:08,156 --> 00:24:12,396 Speaker 5: which is how they spread their wealth amongst black women 385 00:24:12,516 --> 00:24:17,396 Speaker 5: Latino businesses to be a part of the developed design 386 00:24:17,436 --> 00:24:21,396 Speaker 5: and development of one of my good friends, Dina Griffin, 387 00:24:21,516 --> 00:24:23,996 Speaker 5: African American women from the South Side of Chicago, is 388 00:24:24,076 --> 00:24:25,756 Speaker 5: one of the primary architects. 389 00:24:25,796 --> 00:24:26,876 Speaker 6: For example, no. 390 00:24:28,556 --> 00:24:32,076 Speaker 5: Relation, but she was married to a college buddy of mine. 391 00:24:32,476 --> 00:24:36,116 Speaker 5: The other thing that they're doing is also thinking about 392 00:24:36,836 --> 00:24:39,476 Speaker 5: the businesses that they need to procure. 393 00:24:39,276 --> 00:24:41,876 Speaker 6: When it's open and when it's running. 394 00:24:42,756 --> 00:24:45,316 Speaker 5: So I think that work that they're beginning to do 395 00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:51,356 Speaker 5: internally is exactly what they promised to do and exactly 396 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:52,556 Speaker 5: what they should be doing. 397 00:24:53,036 --> 00:24:55,396 Speaker 2: So you're now you're talking about everything that's happening on 398 00:24:55,436 --> 00:24:58,836 Speaker 2: the actual, the actual side of the development. Yeah, and 399 00:24:58,916 --> 00:25:02,396 Speaker 2: so now we're going to talk about the periphery. 400 00:25:02,676 --> 00:25:05,516 Speaker 6: So let's go off site for a second. Off site. 401 00:25:05,716 --> 00:25:08,156 Speaker 5: When it was announced that the center was coming to 402 00:25:08,316 --> 00:25:13,956 Speaker 5: Chicago and ultimately landed in Jackson Park, then Mayor Rama 403 00:25:14,076 --> 00:25:19,156 Speaker 5: Manual the Obama Foundation in the University of Chicago determined 404 00:25:19,236 --> 00:25:24,796 Speaker 5: that they needed a nonprofit, community based partner to work 405 00:25:24,876 --> 00:25:29,516 Speaker 5: with to do the deep work of looking at community 406 00:25:29,636 --> 00:25:34,236 Speaker 5: development and the impacts or opportunity of this center and 407 00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:37,596 Speaker 5: what it can have on the adjacent neighborhood. So in 408 00:25:37,636 --> 00:25:42,356 Speaker 5: twenty eighteen they created the Emerald South Economic Development Collaborative, 409 00:25:43,516 --> 00:25:47,916 Speaker 5: and in twenty nineteen I was called by them to 410 00:25:47,956 --> 00:25:51,236 Speaker 5: help work on some strategic planning. And by the way, 411 00:25:51,276 --> 00:25:55,396 Speaker 5: the catchment area for this organization is SouthShore, Woodlawn and 412 00:25:55,636 --> 00:26:01,396 Speaker 5: Washington Park. So Emerald South as I'll call it, you know, 413 00:26:01,476 --> 00:26:08,036 Speaker 5: their mission is to promote community wealth with a real 414 00:26:08,076 --> 00:26:12,316 Speaker 5: emphasis on black wealth creation. And I've made various attempts 415 00:26:12,316 --> 00:26:17,436 Speaker 5: at doing that. One was organizing the commercial business district 416 00:26:17,556 --> 00:26:24,556 Speaker 5: organizations to start to think about strategies for supporting, financing, 417 00:26:25,716 --> 00:26:30,116 Speaker 5: leveraging existing businesses on our local commercial corridors that have 418 00:26:30,276 --> 00:26:33,476 Speaker 5: some thriving businesses in it, and that we would hope 419 00:26:33,556 --> 00:26:36,956 Speaker 5: when the Obama Presidential Center opens in twenty twenty five, 420 00:26:37,636 --> 00:26:42,276 Speaker 5: there's going to be a intentional campaign to push visitors 421 00:26:42,876 --> 00:26:44,156 Speaker 5: into those businesses. 422 00:26:44,436 --> 00:26:44,596 Speaker 6: Right. 423 00:26:44,676 --> 00:26:48,076 Speaker 5: That could be a fantastic opportunity if the projection of 424 00:26:48,556 --> 00:26:50,956 Speaker 5: seven hundred thousand to a million visitors in the first 425 00:26:50,996 --> 00:26:54,596 Speaker 5: year comes true. How do we get them to experience 426 00:26:54,676 --> 00:26:59,676 Speaker 5: black Chicago in an authentic way that's not just Hyde Park, Right, 427 00:26:59,836 --> 00:27:03,916 Speaker 5: So some of that work is beginning. The other work 428 00:27:04,076 --> 00:27:07,396 Speaker 5: that's beginning is actually starting to take a real strategic 429 00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:11,396 Speaker 5: look at vacant land. And most of the vacant land 430 00:27:11,436 --> 00:27:14,716 Speaker 5: in those three neighborhoods is in Washington Park on the 431 00:27:14,756 --> 00:27:18,996 Speaker 5: west side of Olmsted's Washington Park. The least amount is 432 00:27:19,036 --> 00:27:24,756 Speaker 5: in South Shore. This is where a fear of gentrification exists, 433 00:27:25,236 --> 00:27:29,396 Speaker 5: but actual gentrification has not yet happened, which gives us 434 00:27:29,436 --> 00:27:34,596 Speaker 5: the sweet spot of finding ways for black folks black 435 00:27:34,716 --> 00:27:38,916 Speaker 5: organizations to control that asset so that they are in 436 00:27:38,956 --> 00:27:44,876 Speaker 5: a position to reap the market economic capitalist system benefits 437 00:27:45,636 --> 00:27:48,916 Speaker 5: of the valuation of land, which by the way, has 438 00:27:48,956 --> 00:27:51,276 Speaker 5: been devalued on the South Side and West Side of 439 00:27:51,356 --> 00:27:57,356 Speaker 5: Chicago for decades. So we are looking at strategies that 440 00:27:57,436 --> 00:28:01,396 Speaker 5: are really intentionally about wealth, and some of that is 441 00:28:01,476 --> 00:28:06,436 Speaker 5: about the actual ownership of material assets like land, in 442 00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:10,876 Speaker 5: addition to growing the capacities of black with organizations to 443 00:28:10,996 --> 00:28:16,116 Speaker 5: be much more active in the stewardship and development and 444 00:28:16,156 --> 00:28:19,956 Speaker 5: decision making of future development that happens around them. 445 00:28:20,396 --> 00:28:23,756 Speaker 2: And I just want to say, Tony that the Obama 446 00:28:23,876 --> 00:28:27,236 Speaker 2: Center and the city have been resistant for the kind 447 00:28:27,236 --> 00:28:31,276 Speaker 2: of guarantees that you're talking about, that the community would 448 00:28:31,316 --> 00:28:36,396 Speaker 2: be assured a kind of benefit as development and prices 449 00:28:36,436 --> 00:28:39,236 Speaker 2: go up. You know, it's called the Community Benefits Agreement. 450 00:28:39,276 --> 00:28:42,156 Speaker 2: They have not wanted to sign this, and critics of 451 00:28:42,196 --> 00:28:46,436 Speaker 2: a community benefits agreement say that it raises the cost 452 00:28:46,476 --> 00:28:49,236 Speaker 2: of entry for developers. And so if you're a developer 453 00:28:49,316 --> 00:28:52,236 Speaker 2: of any kind and you could choose between a neighborhood 454 00:28:52,236 --> 00:28:53,916 Speaker 2: on the north side or the South Side, and suddenly 455 00:28:53,916 --> 00:28:56,316 Speaker 2: there this community benefits agreement that you also have to 456 00:28:56,356 --> 00:28:59,796 Speaker 2: contend with you're like, ah, I'll go somewhere else. That 457 00:28:59,876 --> 00:29:03,556 Speaker 2: criticism also feels ahistorical to me. It's like we only 458 00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:07,516 Speaker 2: exist in the present, because if you're in these neighborhoods 459 00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:10,876 Speaker 2: and you've been like, you know, duped and cheated, like 460 00:29:10,916 --> 00:29:14,916 Speaker 2: you said, all these ways for over a century, it's 461 00:29:14,956 --> 00:29:17,156 Speaker 2: like falling for the okie doke again. You know, like 462 00:29:17,236 --> 00:29:19,316 Speaker 2: this time we really mean it that you don't need 463 00:29:19,596 --> 00:29:21,996 Speaker 2: you don't need a promise, you know, a contract in 464 00:29:22,036 --> 00:29:24,076 Speaker 2: some way, because we promise it's going to be due 465 00:29:24,116 --> 00:29:25,076 Speaker 2: right by you this time. 466 00:29:25,836 --> 00:29:29,356 Speaker 3: Help us, help us see some promise, some future, some 467 00:29:29,916 --> 00:29:33,356 Speaker 3: help our imaginations grow to believe that this is all possible. 468 00:29:33,676 --> 00:29:36,436 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I'm a designers, so I'm trained to imagine, 469 00:29:36,476 --> 00:29:41,396 Speaker 5: and so I've decided to figure out, well, what's another 470 00:29:41,836 --> 00:29:45,676 Speaker 5: tool while that work is going on. And one of 471 00:29:45,756 --> 00:29:51,236 Speaker 5: the tools that I've become interested in is community ownership. 472 00:29:51,756 --> 00:29:56,036 Speaker 5: So there are these things tools called community land trust. 473 00:29:56,716 --> 00:30:00,316 Speaker 5: It's actually a tool that's used in certain cities to 474 00:30:00,556 --> 00:30:08,556 Speaker 5: help lock in affordability against the escalation of land values. Right, So, 475 00:30:08,596 --> 00:30:12,076 Speaker 5: the benef fit of a land trust allows a group 476 00:30:12,116 --> 00:30:15,596 Speaker 5: of people to stay within a certain range of the 477 00:30:15,716 --> 00:30:18,996 Speaker 5: market never to exceed the market. So that's a tool 478 00:30:19,596 --> 00:30:22,236 Speaker 5: that can be used, for example, if you grant vacant land. 479 00:30:22,876 --> 00:30:27,116 Speaker 5: I also want to think about another tool because I 480 00:30:27,156 --> 00:30:29,956 Speaker 5: think the issue we ultimately want to talk about in 481 00:30:30,036 --> 00:30:34,836 Speaker 5: black neighborhoods is affordability, yes, but we also want to 482 00:30:34,836 --> 00:30:38,116 Speaker 5: talk about wealth creation, right. I want to see black 483 00:30:38,156 --> 00:30:42,436 Speaker 5: folks on the trajectory of getting to a state of 484 00:30:42,676 --> 00:30:47,316 Speaker 5: wealth where in their words when I've interviewed people, is 485 00:30:47,436 --> 00:30:52,436 Speaker 5: I just don't want to have to worry about how 486 00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:56,236 Speaker 5: I'm fed, how I'm housed, how I'm closed my healthcare. 487 00:30:56,796 --> 00:31:01,236 Speaker 5: Wealth is not being a billionaire. Wealth is not having 488 00:31:01,276 --> 00:31:04,396 Speaker 5: to worry enough money to not have to worry. 489 00:31:05,036 --> 00:31:07,636 Speaker 3: That is the perfect moment to take us to a break, 490 00:31:07,756 --> 00:31:10,796 Speaker 3: because we are to talk about the future. We're going 491 00:31:10,836 --> 00:31:14,396 Speaker 3: to talk about what is possible to create wealth and 492 00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:15,836 Speaker 3: ownership and control. 493 00:31:16,116 --> 00:31:35,396 Speaker 4: All right, we'll be right back after the break. 494 00:31:36,836 --> 00:31:41,596 Speaker 3: It's so wonderful to hear your passion and commitment to 495 00:31:42,756 --> 00:31:47,156 Speaker 3: a multiplicity of tools, because in some ways we only 496 00:31:47,236 --> 00:31:50,076 Speaker 3: have the tools that are designed to do the thing 497 00:31:50,116 --> 00:31:51,516 Speaker 3: we want them to do. And so we know that 498 00:31:51,556 --> 00:31:54,516 Speaker 3: tools have been designed to extract from black communities to 499 00:31:54,596 --> 00:31:57,796 Speaker 3: create white wealth on the backs of black people literally 500 00:31:58,116 --> 00:32:02,956 Speaker 3: as well as through the exploitation of black homeowners contract lending. 501 00:32:03,036 --> 00:32:05,916 Speaker 3: Chicago is, you know, just a poster city for the 502 00:32:05,996 --> 00:32:13,236 Speaker 3: exploitative post slavery Jim Crow South during the migration into 503 00:32:13,276 --> 00:32:16,916 Speaker 3: the nineteen sixties and seventies and eighties, just taking taking 504 00:32:16,916 --> 00:32:18,796 Speaker 3: from Black people the twenty tens. 505 00:32:18,836 --> 00:32:22,116 Speaker 2: Don't forget the twenty tens. Black communities were hit the 506 00:32:22,156 --> 00:32:25,076 Speaker 2: hardest by the foreclosure crisis, by the thanks and they're 507 00:32:25,116 --> 00:32:27,356 Speaker 2: really suffering from it. Still. This isn't back then. 508 00:32:27,676 --> 00:32:34,796 Speaker 3: That's just super super super relevant. So you've taken on 509 00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:38,436 Speaker 3: another tool. You've taken on creativity in a way that 510 00:32:38,476 --> 00:32:43,996 Speaker 3: goes beyond design and planning and architecture. You're now moving 511 00:32:43,996 --> 00:32:46,516 Speaker 3: into the space of visual art. You currently have a 512 00:32:46,556 --> 00:32:51,396 Speaker 3: show in Venice at the Venice Bienale called Land Narratives 513 00:32:51,436 --> 00:32:55,276 Speaker 3: Fantastic Futures. So let's take a look at one of 514 00:32:55,316 --> 00:33:01,196 Speaker 3: the pieces that explores this idea about black land and wealth. 515 00:33:01,836 --> 00:33:03,716 Speaker 3: So we want to look at the one where we 516 00:33:03,796 --> 00:33:07,316 Speaker 3: think it features your father, It's called Loyal. Could you 517 00:33:07,436 --> 00:33:10,836 Speaker 3: help us understand what's happening in this image? What exactly 518 00:33:10,876 --> 00:33:11,796 Speaker 3: are we looking at. 519 00:33:12,356 --> 00:33:15,596 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, thank you so much for wanting to talk 520 00:33:15,596 --> 00:33:21,916 Speaker 5: about this work. It was inspired after the murder of 521 00:33:21,996 --> 00:33:24,916 Speaker 5: George Floyd and I was supposed to write an article 522 00:33:24,996 --> 00:33:28,276 Speaker 5: for the Harvard Design magazine and I was just pissed, 523 00:33:29,156 --> 00:33:32,916 Speaker 5: Like I just pissed and depleted. I didn't want people 524 00:33:32,996 --> 00:33:36,796 Speaker 5: to ask me to explain anything. I didn't want to 525 00:33:36,836 --> 00:33:39,916 Speaker 5: go into rooms to heal. 526 00:33:41,716 --> 00:33:42,396 Speaker 6: I didn't want to. 527 00:33:44,996 --> 00:33:48,596 Speaker 5: And I didn't want to regurgitate a history that has 528 00:33:48,716 --> 00:33:50,316 Speaker 5: already been articulated. 529 00:33:50,596 --> 00:33:55,116 Speaker 3: That's right, You're like, like, we didn't know what's going on. 530 00:33:55,236 --> 00:33:56,676 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yes, I get it. 531 00:33:56,756 --> 00:33:59,956 Speaker 6: Yes, I didn't want to give you the biography. 532 00:34:00,156 --> 00:34:03,596 Speaker 5: I didn't want to do shit right, But I had 533 00:34:03,636 --> 00:34:06,036 Speaker 5: to write this article and I was just literally stuck. 534 00:34:06,196 --> 00:34:12,956 Speaker 5: And one day I just pulled out paper and scissors 535 00:34:13,116 --> 00:34:16,236 Speaker 5: and I just in an hour, I had made five 536 00:34:16,316 --> 00:34:22,636 Speaker 5: collages that were the mashup of here's the shit you 537 00:34:22,676 --> 00:34:26,276 Speaker 5: should know, and it was all imagery, right, So the 538 00:34:26,676 --> 00:34:29,156 Speaker 5: historic map of the South Side of Chicago with the 539 00:34:29,196 --> 00:34:34,396 Speaker 5: black image of the Black Belt superimposed, and I started 540 00:34:34,436 --> 00:34:38,556 Speaker 5: thinking about people that I engaged in neighborhoods like Woodlawn 541 00:34:38,636 --> 00:34:41,836 Speaker 5: and Washington Parker and just observing them go through their neighborhoods, 542 00:34:42,476 --> 00:34:47,716 Speaker 5: not knowing how that neighborhood came to be. Their mother 543 00:34:47,876 --> 00:34:50,436 Speaker 5: may not know, their grandmother may not know. But this 544 00:34:50,596 --> 00:34:53,796 Speaker 5: is the home of black Metropolis, first black insurance company, 545 00:34:53,796 --> 00:34:59,396 Speaker 5: first black newspaper, black doctors, black wealth, and these questions 546 00:34:59,396 --> 00:35:02,596 Speaker 5: that you know you have asked me about the insufficiency 547 00:35:02,676 --> 00:35:06,596 Speaker 5: of tools, and me being really frustrated and skeptical too 548 00:35:06,676 --> 00:35:09,236 Speaker 5: sometimes and not knowing what to do. And I I 549 00:35:09,356 --> 00:35:15,316 Speaker 5: needed to escape to a future that black people controlled. 550 00:35:16,556 --> 00:35:17,956 Speaker 5: I needed to escape. 551 00:35:18,876 --> 00:35:21,036 Speaker 1: Futurism in a way. 552 00:35:21,276 --> 00:35:25,716 Speaker 5: I went to a place of pro topia, right, which 553 00:35:25,756 --> 00:35:28,676 Speaker 5: is a tool and experimenting with in some of my 554 00:35:28,756 --> 00:35:33,756 Speaker 5: design classes, which has been described by the gentleman's name 555 00:35:33,836 --> 00:35:37,196 Speaker 5: is Kevin Kelly as the exuberant feeling that everyone is 556 00:35:37,276 --> 00:35:37,916 Speaker 5: rooting for you. 557 00:35:38,676 --> 00:35:40,196 Speaker 1: Okay, I love that. 558 00:35:41,436 --> 00:35:44,596 Speaker 6: And it always makes the cheer up. Everyone is rooting 559 00:35:44,676 --> 00:35:44,956 Speaker 6: for me. 560 00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:49,836 Speaker 5: So Land Narratives for a Taxi Futures was about kind 561 00:35:49,876 --> 00:35:53,316 Speaker 5: of going back to that vacant land in Washington Park, which, 562 00:35:53,356 --> 00:35:56,436 Speaker 5: by the way, my dad grew up fifty six twelve 563 00:35:56,476 --> 00:35:58,596 Speaker 5: South Caliumet. I spent the first two years of my 564 00:35:58,676 --> 00:36:03,276 Speaker 5: life there. What if black people controlled that, what if 565 00:36:03,316 --> 00:36:08,596 Speaker 5: they imagined their own future for so loyal The first 566 00:36:09,516 --> 00:36:13,076 Speaker 5: in the exhibition are a series of collages where I 567 00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:16,636 Speaker 5: interviewed eight Chicagoans from both the South and West Side, 568 00:36:17,076 --> 00:36:21,156 Speaker 5: asked them about their memories of their neighborhood. I asked 569 00:36:21,156 --> 00:36:24,596 Speaker 5: them questions about, well, what is wealth to you? What 570 00:36:24,716 --> 00:36:27,196 Speaker 5: is community wealth? How much money do you think you 571 00:36:27,236 --> 00:36:30,316 Speaker 5: would need to buy land in that neighborhood? 572 00:36:30,556 --> 00:36:30,876 Speaker 2: Okay? 573 00:36:31,676 --> 00:36:34,596 Speaker 5: I then asked them what they love about being black, 574 00:36:35,436 --> 00:36:38,956 Speaker 5: and then I asked them what their superpower is now 575 00:36:39,076 --> 00:36:42,116 Speaker 5: and if they could have an additional superpower, what would 576 00:36:42,156 --> 00:36:45,316 Speaker 5: it be. So in the interview with my dad, who 577 00:36:45,356 --> 00:36:48,716 Speaker 5: grew up in Washington Park, went to Burke School, and 578 00:36:48,756 --> 00:36:52,396 Speaker 5: so he talked about walking to school with his buddies 579 00:36:52,436 --> 00:36:54,876 Speaker 5: to Burke School, and then after school they would hang 580 00:36:54,916 --> 00:36:58,956 Speaker 5: out on Garfields Boulevard, which is part of the Burnham 581 00:36:58,996 --> 00:37:02,036 Speaker 5: Street and open space system that has a huge median. 582 00:37:02,396 --> 00:37:04,796 Speaker 5: But he says, yeah, you know, they were all black businesses. 583 00:37:04,876 --> 00:37:06,956 Speaker 5: Then he and his buddies would just hang out and 584 00:37:06,996 --> 00:37:10,556 Speaker 5: watch the older men in the neighborhood. And there was 585 00:37:10,596 --> 00:37:13,556 Speaker 5: a point where he said, you know, one of my 586 00:37:13,636 --> 00:37:17,156 Speaker 5: buddies his dad was a pullman porter, and I was 587 00:37:17,196 --> 00:37:19,836 Speaker 5: always so fascinated by him because he would have on 588 00:37:19,916 --> 00:37:24,796 Speaker 5: this crisp white shirt with buttons and a jacket and 589 00:37:24,836 --> 00:37:27,956 Speaker 5: a satchel and a hat, and I wod watch him 590 00:37:27,996 --> 00:37:29,676 Speaker 5: go to work. And it was a moment in the 591 00:37:29,756 --> 00:37:32,556 Speaker 5: interview and I said, so, Dad, you saw men go 592 00:37:32,636 --> 00:37:34,596 Speaker 5: to work when you were a kid. He said, yeah, 593 00:37:34,596 --> 00:37:36,156 Speaker 5: I saw men go to work and suit it. There 594 00:37:36,196 --> 00:37:40,276 Speaker 5: was very low unemployment when I. 595 00:37:40,236 --> 00:37:40,796 Speaker 6: Was a kid. 596 00:37:40,996 --> 00:37:45,716 Speaker 5: This is the fifties, right late forties, early into the fifties. 597 00:37:46,316 --> 00:37:49,836 Speaker 5: And it was like, that's so interesting because kids in 598 00:37:49,876 --> 00:37:53,756 Speaker 5: this neighborhood have probably some of them have probably never 599 00:37:53,836 --> 00:37:57,316 Speaker 5: seen the image that you saw as a young black 600 00:37:57,356 --> 00:38:01,036 Speaker 5: boy on the South Side of Chicago in nineteen fifty 601 00:38:01,356 --> 00:38:02,036 Speaker 5: fifty two. 602 00:38:02,516 --> 00:38:06,876 Speaker 6: Isn't that insane, right, Tony? 603 00:38:07,116 --> 00:38:09,476 Speaker 2: Can I interject in here for a second, Tony? Yeah, 604 00:38:09,556 --> 00:38:11,396 Speaker 2: I just want to I want to describe actually what 605 00:38:11,436 --> 00:38:13,716 Speaker 2: I'm looking at here, and then I ask you a 606 00:38:13,796 --> 00:38:17,796 Speaker 2: question about it. So on this canvas, this collage, it's 607 00:38:17,796 --> 00:38:21,916 Speaker 2: sort of in black space, and there is your dad 608 00:38:22,116 --> 00:38:25,356 Speaker 2: present day. He's wearing this shiny sort of gold le 609 00:38:25,476 --> 00:38:29,916 Speaker 2: may sports coat. He's holding his lapels. He's wearing a 610 00:38:29,916 --> 00:38:35,276 Speaker 2: beautiful gold hat and he's standing on land with the 611 00:38:35,356 --> 00:38:39,036 Speaker 2: letters p r ide, so pride being spelled out in 612 00:38:39,116 --> 00:38:41,956 Speaker 2: little sort of like, you know, claims of the land. 613 00:38:42,556 --> 00:38:45,556 Speaker 2: And he almost has a cape, and it looks like 614 00:38:45,756 --> 00:38:49,036 Speaker 2: it's made up of Jesse White Tumblers, which is a 615 00:38:49,116 --> 00:38:51,356 Speaker 2: high flying tumbling team that started on the North side 616 00:38:51,356 --> 00:38:54,956 Speaker 2: of Chicago and was led by this amazing person who 617 00:38:54,956 --> 00:38:58,116 Speaker 2: also became an elected official, Jesse White. Yes, that's a 618 00:38:58,236 --> 00:39:02,116 Speaker 2: it's a wild image. And what's up with the cape 619 00:39:02,116 --> 00:39:04,676 Speaker 2: and the Jesse White Tumblers And how does this sort 620 00:39:04,716 --> 00:39:07,116 Speaker 2: of present even like superpowers perfect? 621 00:39:07,316 --> 00:39:11,116 Speaker 5: So when I asked my dad what his superpower was, 622 00:39:11,396 --> 00:39:14,996 Speaker 5: he said he was he could fly like Superman, that 623 00:39:15,076 --> 00:39:18,356 Speaker 5: he can leap over tall buildings with a single bound. 624 00:39:18,876 --> 00:39:24,276 Speaker 5: So the collages situate the person I interview on vacant land, 625 00:39:24,476 --> 00:39:28,396 Speaker 5: so they're rooted, standing firmly on vacant land as a 626 00:39:28,436 --> 00:39:32,716 Speaker 5: representation of them claiming land. So the imagery in the 627 00:39:32,756 --> 00:39:38,396 Speaker 5: collages representative of their imaginary for their neighborhood. But I'm 628 00:39:38,396 --> 00:39:42,196 Speaker 5: also pulling from references that are very rooted in Chicago. 629 00:39:42,836 --> 00:39:46,116 Speaker 5: So the Pride sign, the Pride that you see kind 630 00:39:46,116 --> 00:39:49,756 Speaker 5: of rooted in the ground is actually a mid century 631 00:39:49,836 --> 00:39:55,996 Speaker 5: Modernists sign for Pride Dry Cleaners that's on eighty third 632 00:39:56,116 --> 00:40:00,436 Speaker 5: and Saint Lawrence. So that's reference to a black owned business, 633 00:40:00,476 --> 00:40:03,676 Speaker 5: which my dad sort of talked about. Was something that 634 00:40:04,036 --> 00:40:07,036 Speaker 5: all he frequented on in his neighborhood on fifty fifth 635 00:40:07,036 --> 00:40:10,196 Speaker 5: Street were black owned businesses, and there were lots of them. 636 00:40:11,156 --> 00:40:14,996 Speaker 5: And the Jesse White Tumbers show up and a number 637 00:40:15,036 --> 00:40:19,516 Speaker 5: of different collages, and to me, those black boys and 638 00:40:19,596 --> 00:40:23,716 Speaker 5: bodies flying through the air in this bright red was 639 00:40:23,756 --> 00:40:29,756 Speaker 5: to me representative of liberation, freedom. They're suspended from the 640 00:40:29,796 --> 00:40:34,556 Speaker 5: earth and they're tumbling with just this ease and just 641 00:40:34,596 --> 00:40:38,756 Speaker 5: doing all of this fantastical shit that often black people 642 00:40:38,836 --> 00:40:41,516 Speaker 5: have to do just to prove that. 643 00:40:41,476 --> 00:40:44,316 Speaker 6: They can do what the average person can do, right, so. 644 00:40:44,956 --> 00:40:46,796 Speaker 1: That it is both literal and figurative. 645 00:40:46,836 --> 00:40:49,876 Speaker 3: These boys, these young men, really can can do the 646 00:40:49,916 --> 00:40:51,436 Speaker 3: impossible by flying people. 647 00:40:52,556 --> 00:40:55,756 Speaker 5: And guess what, I could do this exceptional thing too 648 00:40:56,436 --> 00:40:59,236 Speaker 5: with ease. And so after I did the collage and 649 00:40:59,276 --> 00:41:00,836 Speaker 5: I showed it to my dad and I had to 650 00:41:00,876 --> 00:41:03,236 Speaker 5: explain it to him. He's like so that he understood, 651 00:41:03,436 --> 00:41:06,956 Speaker 5: like how I used his story. And you'll notice on 652 00:41:06,996 --> 00:41:09,596 Speaker 5: the collage that I kept from the photograph, which is 653 00:41:09,596 --> 00:41:13,756 Speaker 5: actually by photographer and architecture critical Lee Bay, who's the Chicagoan. 654 00:41:14,836 --> 00:41:17,836 Speaker 5: I kept the sign, the street sign of Saint Lawrence. 655 00:41:17,916 --> 00:41:20,636 Speaker 5: And my dad goes, this is really cool. It's like 656 00:41:20,756 --> 00:41:22,996 Speaker 5: you even kept Saint Lawrence. I was like, what do 657 00:41:23,036 --> 00:41:24,716 Speaker 5: you mean. He goes, well, you know I was born 658 00:41:24,796 --> 00:41:28,476 Speaker 5: on fifty third in Saint Lawrence. As a key word wow, 659 00:41:29,156 --> 00:41:32,556 Speaker 5: And so just the irony of that just meant. 660 00:41:32,316 --> 00:41:35,636 Speaker 1: That the universe is speaking, yeah, oh yes. 661 00:41:35,556 --> 00:41:36,716 Speaker 6: Thanks for speaking to me. 662 00:41:36,796 --> 00:41:42,036 Speaker 5: And this moment of writer's block, these images emerged. 663 00:41:42,076 --> 00:41:46,036 Speaker 3: And so these collages now at the Venice Biennale appeared 664 00:41:46,236 --> 00:41:48,436 Speaker 3: instead of a written essay in the Harvard magazine. 665 00:41:48,476 --> 00:41:48,876 Speaker 1: I love that. 666 00:41:49,356 --> 00:41:52,756 Speaker 3: I love the idea of breaking it down for our 667 00:41:52,836 --> 00:41:57,476 Speaker 3: Harvard colleagues whose whose brains are too big to understand 668 00:41:57,556 --> 00:42:02,156 Speaker 3: the basics. Like so, so this art is so powerful 669 00:42:03,236 --> 00:42:06,756 Speaker 3: both in its ability to communicate these stories, these histories, 670 00:42:06,756 --> 00:42:11,836 Speaker 3: to use symbols to that message to life, and also 671 00:42:12,556 --> 00:42:15,516 Speaker 3: it really does capture a central theme of what you're 672 00:42:15,516 --> 00:42:18,476 Speaker 3: trying to get at, which is that black people not 673 00:42:18,636 --> 00:42:22,676 Speaker 3: only have the capacity to control their futures they want 674 00:42:22,716 --> 00:42:25,796 Speaker 3: to do that. They are not helpless. They have agency, 675 00:42:25,796 --> 00:42:28,276 Speaker 3: They've had it in the past, and we are fighting 676 00:42:28,276 --> 00:42:28,836 Speaker 3: for them to have. 677 00:42:28,836 --> 00:42:29,356 Speaker 1: In the future. 678 00:42:29,356 --> 00:42:35,116 Speaker 3: Which brings me to our sort of final question. When 679 00:42:35,156 --> 00:42:37,396 Speaker 3: I look at the body of your work, the Just 680 00:42:37,516 --> 00:42:41,116 Speaker 3: Cities Lab, which indexes how cities are doing on this 681 00:42:41,276 --> 00:42:44,596 Speaker 3: question of equity, I kept thinking about a really basic 682 00:42:44,676 --> 00:42:48,116 Speaker 3: question because I think it would help me understand how 683 00:42:49,116 --> 00:42:52,996 Speaker 3: to anticipate the future. So I've often made the comparison 684 00:42:53,076 --> 00:42:55,356 Speaker 3: that white people have what they need in cities and 685 00:42:55,396 --> 00:42:59,436 Speaker 3: in suburbs. We see in the evidence of the quality 686 00:42:59,476 --> 00:43:02,196 Speaker 3: of life that a lot of middle to upper income 687 00:43:02,236 --> 00:43:05,596 Speaker 3: white people have the cities and suburbs work for them, 688 00:43:06,116 --> 00:43:08,356 Speaker 3: but black people generally don't have this. They've been the 689 00:43:08,436 --> 00:43:12,756 Speaker 3: victims of the very policies that created the quality of. 690 00:43:12,716 --> 00:43:13,476 Speaker 1: Life that whites have. 691 00:43:13,636 --> 00:43:16,716 Speaker 3: So is the idea that black people will get to 692 00:43:17,476 --> 00:43:20,316 Speaker 3: a form of spatial justice a term you use, too 693 00:43:20,436 --> 00:43:22,356 Speaker 3: could kind of encapsulate a lot of what we've talked 694 00:43:22,356 --> 00:43:24,996 Speaker 3: about that already looks like what middle class and white 695 00:43:24,996 --> 00:43:29,276 Speaker 3: people have. Or does a just city or a fantastic 696 00:43:29,356 --> 00:43:31,396 Speaker 3: future look different for white people too. 697 00:43:32,236 --> 00:43:34,076 Speaker 6: I think they can look different. 698 00:43:34,636 --> 00:43:36,316 Speaker 5: And I think part of what I was trying to 699 00:43:36,396 --> 00:43:41,596 Speaker 5: explore through art with land narratives fantastic futures is that 700 00:43:41,676 --> 00:43:47,876 Speaker 5: a just city, just neighborhood that's black controlled and owned 701 00:43:48,036 --> 00:43:52,636 Speaker 5: does not have to look like the conventional American, white 702 00:43:52,756 --> 00:43:57,636 Speaker 5: middle class construct. Black folks are looking for a quality 703 00:43:57,676 --> 00:44:02,956 Speaker 5: of life that's meaningful to their cultural norms of quality. 704 00:44:03,396 --> 00:44:07,036 Speaker 5: And sure some of that is mainstream and what everyone 705 00:44:07,076 --> 00:44:11,476 Speaker 5: else wants, but some of its and looks very different 706 00:44:12,156 --> 00:44:15,356 Speaker 5: than what we're taught in design school. If I want 707 00:44:15,356 --> 00:44:18,316 Speaker 5: to throw off a house party, a mini old school picnic, 708 00:44:18,436 --> 00:44:19,836 Speaker 5: I want to be able to do that on my 709 00:44:19,876 --> 00:44:22,956 Speaker 5: block that is now part of the new cultural esthetic 710 00:44:23,516 --> 00:44:27,596 Speaker 5: of a black neighborhood that is thriving. Right, So this 711 00:44:27,636 --> 00:44:30,116 Speaker 5: is the kind of design work I want to explore. 712 00:44:30,836 --> 00:44:34,756 Speaker 2: I was really interested to hear how this fantastical work, 713 00:44:34,756 --> 00:44:39,796 Speaker 2: this imaginative creative work is feeding back into your practical work, 714 00:44:40,196 --> 00:44:43,676 Speaker 2: and to think of like they're going to be, you know, 715 00:44:43,916 --> 00:44:47,356 Speaker 2: pro topic urban planners that you're going to be teaching, 716 00:44:47,876 --> 00:44:50,596 Speaker 2: and they're going to do this work in some way, 717 00:44:50,636 --> 00:44:52,756 Speaker 2: And was this a kind of epiphany, like a new 718 00:44:52,796 --> 00:44:53,476 Speaker 2: opening for you? 719 00:44:53,836 --> 00:44:58,516 Speaker 5: It definitely became a different mode of design method for 720 00:44:58,636 --> 00:45:02,036 Speaker 5: me right that I intend to keep in my work, 721 00:45:02,556 --> 00:45:05,636 Speaker 5: pushing it into the pedagogy of classes that I teach, 722 00:45:05,716 --> 00:45:08,436 Speaker 5: and then pushing that back out into practice. I mean, 723 00:45:08,436 --> 00:45:11,996 Speaker 5: it's why I wanted to be both an academic and 724 00:45:12,036 --> 00:45:15,836 Speaker 5: a practitioner, right to keep that cycle of innovation and 725 00:45:15,916 --> 00:45:19,636 Speaker 5: imagination in play for me as a practitioner. So they 726 00:45:19,676 --> 00:45:23,596 Speaker 5: didn't get bogged down with trying to, you know, crack 727 00:45:23,756 --> 00:45:30,156 Speaker 5: open a tool that doesn't avail itself to a different approach. 728 00:45:30,556 --> 00:45:34,636 Speaker 1: Need new tools, you need new tools. 729 00:45:34,916 --> 00:45:41,316 Speaker 3: I love that this has been such a really enriching experience, 730 00:45:41,796 --> 00:45:44,116 Speaker 3: both looking at the past and the ways that we 731 00:45:44,156 --> 00:45:47,836 Speaker 3: often do, but also taking this journey with you through 732 00:45:47,876 --> 00:45:50,756 Speaker 3: your art to think about what a future looks like. 733 00:45:50,796 --> 00:45:54,636 Speaker 1: That Center's black Life. It's just it's just uplifting. 734 00:45:54,716 --> 00:45:58,196 Speaker 3: So thank you so much, cousin Tony for joining us today. 735 00:45:58,556 --> 00:45:59,556 Speaker 1: We love you, guys. 736 00:46:00,436 --> 00:46:03,156 Speaker 5: We all need to find our sort of outlets of 737 00:46:03,356 --> 00:46:06,116 Speaker 5: uplift if we're going to continue to stay in this 738 00:46:06,836 --> 00:46:12,436 Speaker 5: deeply problematic and heavy work. So it was really about 739 00:46:12,436 --> 00:46:15,876 Speaker 5: my mental health as well as trying to find ways 740 00:46:15,916 --> 00:46:19,756 Speaker 5: to help and be productive in this work. So I 741 00:46:19,836 --> 00:46:23,156 Speaker 5: encourage everyone to find that venue that keeps you in 742 00:46:23,196 --> 00:46:24,916 Speaker 5: the game because we need the fight. 743 00:46:25,676 --> 00:46:29,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, right on, Tony, see you at the next family reunion. 744 00:46:29,556 --> 00:46:31,316 Speaker 6: We need to like sync that up for real. 745 00:46:32,516 --> 00:46:33,396 Speaker 1: We'll figure it out. 746 00:46:33,556 --> 00:46:34,876 Speaker 6: Yeah, you'll figure. 747 00:46:34,636 --> 00:46:46,356 Speaker 2: It out, yo, Khalil. I got to tell you, I 748 00:46:46,516 --> 00:46:50,036 Speaker 2: was once on a NASCAR track driving like one hundred 749 00:46:50,036 --> 00:46:51,476 Speaker 2: miles an hour. I was a passenger. 750 00:46:51,556 --> 00:46:53,516 Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't know about this. This was for that 751 00:46:53,596 --> 00:46:55,156 Speaker 3: story you wrote years ago. 752 00:46:55,956 --> 00:47:01,196 Speaker 2: I wrote a story for Harper's magazine, and I was 753 00:47:01,236 --> 00:47:04,996 Speaker 2: like holding the back of the seat and basically like crying. 754 00:47:05,516 --> 00:47:08,556 Speaker 2: I was scared. And even back then, like fifteen years ago, 755 00:47:08,596 --> 00:47:11,676 Speaker 2: I think there's a ten twelve. Fifteen years ago, NASCAR 756 00:47:11,836 --> 00:47:13,916 Speaker 2: was like, hey, we need to reach a broader, more 757 00:47:13,916 --> 00:47:16,996 Speaker 2: diverse audience. So it's funny that they're still doing this 758 00:47:17,436 --> 00:47:19,476 Speaker 2: all this time later, you know, trying to make these 759 00:47:19,516 --> 00:47:21,876 Speaker 2: inroads and doing it here in. 760 00:47:22,196 --> 00:47:24,036 Speaker 3: I mean, you could say this is this is a 761 00:47:24,036 --> 00:47:26,316 Speaker 3: lot of progress that that race was where when you 762 00:47:26,356 --> 00:47:27,836 Speaker 3: when you went down there to do this. 763 00:47:27,956 --> 00:47:31,276 Speaker 2: Man, this was in Bristol, Tennessee, exactly, Tennessee. 764 00:47:31,396 --> 00:47:34,796 Speaker 1: Now that has worked. Now they're in Chicago exactly. 765 00:47:34,596 --> 00:47:39,276 Speaker 2: Now, they're at the Sapple Museum. Listen, the world is changing. 766 00:47:39,396 --> 00:47:41,156 Speaker 3: I want to there's a takeaway I have from this 767 00:47:41,196 --> 00:47:45,196 Speaker 3: episode with Tony. I want to lean into this innovation 768 00:47:45,396 --> 00:47:49,356 Speaker 3: and imagination and I want to imagine my own protopic 769 00:47:49,436 --> 00:47:53,956 Speaker 3: future where I get to be at the center of 770 00:47:54,036 --> 00:47:58,836 Speaker 3: the transformation of all the shittiest neighborhoods all over this 771 00:47:58,996 --> 00:48:06,116 Speaker 3: country to turn them into beautiful, environmentally sound, community thriving places. 772 00:48:06,196 --> 00:48:08,476 Speaker 3: So that's that's my goal. 773 00:48:09,556 --> 00:48:12,996 Speaker 2: I'm with you, although Protopic sounds like one of those 774 00:48:13,036 --> 00:48:15,876 Speaker 2: ads that you hear on television that if you use this, 775 00:48:21,676 --> 00:48:27,876 Speaker 2: all right, man, all right, I love you, Love me too. 776 00:48:29,596 --> 00:48:31,956 Speaker 3: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of 777 00:48:32,036 --> 00:48:35,396 Speaker 3: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me 778 00:48:35,596 --> 00:48:38,596 Speaker 3: Khalil Dubron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin. 779 00:48:38,796 --> 00:48:42,716 Speaker 2: It's produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our associate producer is Rachel Yang. 780 00:48:43,196 --> 00:48:46,516 Speaker 2: It's edited by Sarah Nix with help from Keishel Williams. 781 00:48:46,836 --> 00:48:50,636 Speaker 2: Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our managing producer 782 00:48:50,836 --> 00:48:52,676 Speaker 2: is Constanza Guyardo. 783 00:48:53,116 --> 00:48:57,476 Speaker 3: At Pushkin thanks to Leital Mollat, Julia Barton, Heather Fain, 784 00:48:57,916 --> 00:49:02,956 Speaker 3: Carly Migliori, John Schnarz, Retta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg. 785 00:49:03,196 --> 00:49:06,956 Speaker 2: Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the 786 00:49:06,996 --> 00:49:10,916 Speaker 2: brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Pubman. You definitely 787 00:49:10,956 --> 00:49:13,956 Speaker 2: want to check out his music at his website, Averyaryong 788 00:49:14,076 --> 00:49:14,756 Speaker 2: dot com. 789 00:49:14,796 --> 00:49:18,396 Speaker 3: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, 790 00:49:18,756 --> 00:49:21,316 Speaker 3: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin 791 00:49:21,396 --> 00:49:25,276 Speaker 3: dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 792 00:49:25,316 --> 00:49:29,236 Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. 793 00:49:29,436 --> 00:49:31,836 Speaker 2: And if you like our show, please give us a 794 00:49:31,876 --> 00:49:34,476 Speaker 2: five star rating and a review and listen. Even if 795 00:49:34,476 --> 00:49:36,116 Speaker 2: you don't like it, give it a five star rating 796 00:49:36,116 --> 00:49:39,036 Speaker 2: and a review, and please tell all of your best 797 00:49:39,036 --> 00:49:44,316 Speaker 2: friends about it. Thank you,