1 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. 2 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe. Why isn't thal so Joe. 3 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: We've had a busy few months. 4 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, we really did. We were all over We crisscrossed 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 3: the country. We did all three coast East Coast California, 6 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 3: the third coast Texas. We went to California twice. Yep, 7 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 3: in about three weeks, I think. But we have a 8 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:35,319 Speaker 3: nice little break now. 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: Yes, I for one am grateful to not be living 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: out of a suitcase for a while. But our last 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: stop in the Whirlwind America tour was in Las Vegas. 12 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 3: That was so fun. I loved going to Vegas. I 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 3: really loved you. I love Vegas. It was so cool 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 3: that I got the opportunity to join you in Las Vegas. 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: Okay, listeners, this is where we're going to get into 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: a little bit of an argument. 17 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 3: But you're going to We're going to hear Odd Lot's 18 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 3: co host air some dirty laundry. 19 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: The day before, No, the day he was supposed to 20 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: actually fly out to Las Vegas, Joe changed his mind. 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: You decided Vegas isn't for. 22 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 3: You, So, listeners, I love Vegas. It's one of my 23 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 3: favorite cities in the country. I like playing poker, I 24 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 3: love the strip, I love the lights, I love the 25 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 3: water consumption in the desert. I was really excited. And 26 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 3: then I got to the airport on this really. 27 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 2: Nice He wasn't feeling it. 28 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 3: No, it's not true. I got to the airport on 29 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 3: this really nice fall day, and about thirty minutes after 30 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 3: I got to the airport, my flight was pushed back 31 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 3: about five hours. And I was only going to be 32 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 3: in Vegas for twenty four hours as it was. And 33 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 3: I wasn't even sure that the flight was going to 34 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 3: take off when they said because actually who was the 35 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,279 Speaker 3: second delay at the time. And I did have family 36 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 3: in town, which is also true, and Terracy was already 37 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 3: out there, and Racy is a very capable co host, 38 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 3: more than capable co host. Like a lot of excuse Joe, 39 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 3: and I said, please, Tracy, can you just do this? 40 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 3: Can you just do me a solid and do this 41 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 3: episode by yourself and Tracy without any complaint or frustration. 42 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: Well, at the time, I didn't complain. 43 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: I complained when I came. 44 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 3: No making me feel bad about myself obliged. 45 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: Let me just say the world's smallest microscope would not 46 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: be able to locate my sympathy for this argument. You 47 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: know what, No, Okay, let's leave it there. I just 48 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: never okay, listeners, let me say though, that you are 49 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 1: in for a treat, as is Joe, because he wasn't there, 50 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: so this is the first time he's going to hear 51 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: this interview. But we spoke, or I spoke with Michael Sue, 52 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: the Acting Comptroller of the Currency, and we had a 53 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: really interesting conversation. This was a live episode recorded on 54 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: stage at Money twenty twenty, which you might know as 55 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: the big sort of fintech gathering, and we talked a 56 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: lot about the intersection between banking and technology and Joe. 57 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets kind of odd, lotsy. Michael has 58 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: been arguing for a while that a lot of what's 59 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: happening in banking right now, and particularly in payments, kind 60 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: of looks like a supply chain. So a lot of 61 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: banks are outsourcing different functions like payments to third party vendors, 62 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: and this presents a bunch of new and interesting problems 63 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: and risks and I guess also opportunities. 64 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 3: It's so interesting to think about finance in this realm, 65 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 3: and you can imagine how these things go in cycles, 66 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: because you could imagine at some point these functions were 67 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 3: very simple. It was all in how it's vertically horizontally 68 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 3: integrated and so forth. And then, like many other areas 69 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 3: of the economy, companies realized, okay, wait, what if we 70 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 3: have one specialty. Other companies then specialize in this specific thing. 71 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 3: I remember we did that episode about community banks and 72 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 3: how they had to outsource a lot of their own 73 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: functions about cybersecurity and so forth because they don't have 74 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 3: maybe the capacity of a JP Morgan. So it is 75 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 3: interesting to think about, like the supply chain of money 76 00:03:59,640 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 3: in that. 77 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: Rest Well, this is exactly it. So in one respect, 78 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: it's a sort of natural evolution of the economy. Everyone 79 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: becomes more specialized, everyone becomes more efficient, the business model 80 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: becomes more streamlined. But as Michael points out, there are 81 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: these sort of new problems that are potentially thrown up 82 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: by everyone outsourcing kind of critical functions in some respects. So, 83 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: without further ado, take a listen to this live episode 84 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: with Michael Sue recorded in Las Vegas, Sans Joe at 85 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: Money twenty twenty. Michael Sue, acting Controller of the OCC. 86 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on on. 87 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 4: Lots, Tracy, thanks so much for having me. Love the 88 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 4: show and it's through all honor to be here. 89 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: Oh, I appreciate that. So I'm sort of in a 90 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: reflective mood lately. And I used to be a banking correspondent. 91 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: I covered a lot of fintech back when people were 92 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: super excited about it. I feel like they're not as 93 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: excited about it anymore. This is a really embarrassing. First question, 94 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: what is the OCC do and like, how does it compare? 95 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 1: I feel like there are so many different banking regularly. 96 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 4: How much time do we have? 97 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there's the FDIC, there's the FED, there's the OCC. 98 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: Who's doing what? How often do you step on each 99 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: other's toes? 100 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 4: We coordinate a lot, let me put it that way. 101 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 4: So the OCC regulates and supervises nationally chartered banks and 102 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 4: federal savings associations. So, just to put some numbers on that, 103 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 4: it's about eleven hundred banks. Wow, Okay, now we've got forty. 104 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 4: We got over four thousand banks in the banking system, 105 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 4: but by assets, the largest banks tend to be nationally chartered. 106 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,799 Speaker 4: You know your your JP Morgan chases and your cities 107 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 4: in the world. So by assets, the occ supervises and 108 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 4: regulates about two thirds of the banking assets. Oh, got 109 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 4: it in the system, right, So you get a little 110 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 4: bit of that eighty twenty year rule for nationally charter banks. 111 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,799 Speaker 4: Banks can have state charters, and they can be members 112 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 4: or not members of the Federal Reserves. So we have 113 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 4: a complicated Actually your listeners might be interested in this, 114 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 4: but maybe we'll spare them for there. 115 00:05:58,720 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: Our listeners love detail. 116 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 4: So there's a different kind of landscape. But we coordinate 117 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 4: quite a bit at the federal level on all the 118 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 4: major rulemakings because we want a level system. We want 119 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 4: a level banking system. Now, I think it was really 120 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 4: interesting about the occ IS historically. So we were founded 121 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 4: in eighteen sixty three during the Civil War. Wow, and 122 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 4: before the OCC you had free banking. And this is 123 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 4: relevant for stable coins because that system. But they all 124 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 4: issued their own currency, yes, I remember this. So you 125 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 4: had the Bank of Tracy, and you had the Bank 126 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 4: of Mike and the Bank of Joe, and each bank 127 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 4: would issue its own dollar, different size, different color, but 128 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 4: it would be a dollar. And so people are walking 129 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 4: around with all these different notes and in theory they 130 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 4: could go back to the Bank of Tracy and say, 131 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 4: I want a dollar's worth of gold right specie, And 132 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 4: sometimes you had it and sometimes you didn't, and so 133 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 4: there would be discount rates on these dollars, and so 134 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 4: it was a mess. And you imagine like there's panics 135 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 4: all the time. There's a lot of fraud, and there 136 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 4: were money men. People would walk go around with bags 137 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 4: full of money from town to town to exchange these 138 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 4: dollars because you know, if you're a farmer, you want 139 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 4: to be able to do your business. So during the 140 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 4: Civil War, Sam and Chase is like, hey, we got 141 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 4: to fund the war and we got to bring the 142 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 4: union together. So they've got they passed a series of laws. 143 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 4: They've got now a green back, unified dollar, and they 144 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 4: create national banks to basically both issue those and then 145 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 4: take deposits and basically buy treasury bonds which funds the war. 146 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: That's crazy. 147 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: So the occ was around even before the fest yes, 148 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: way before. 149 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 2: So you have one up on them so well, and. 150 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 4: All we do is supervision. It's a we are a 151 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 4: very supervisory focused agency. And so we've got a long 152 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 4: deep history and you know, the stable coin debates. You know, 153 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 4: this is less relevant now, but a lot of times 154 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 4: folks were saying, well, why don't we want more? Don't 155 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 4: we want stable coins? And it's like the stable coin 156 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 4: landscape now looks a lot like free banking because each 157 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 4: of these issuers is different and they try differently. I mean, 158 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 4: if you go on the and you look these things 159 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 4: up and it's not a long term sustainable system. 160 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: Well, since we're on the topic of stable coins, as 161 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: our Bloomberg opinion columnist Matt Levine says, often it does 162 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,239 Speaker 1: seem like a lot of crypto and maybe some aspects 163 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: of fintech are learning the lessons of the financial system 164 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: development sort of in real time. And on the topic 165 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: of stable coins, you know, we did have a big 166 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: collapse last. 167 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 2: Year with Tara Luna. 168 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: You at the OCC have always taken a sort of 169 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: cautious approach to stable coins. What was it that kind 170 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: of worried you about their development? What was it that 171 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: you saw that made you think, wait a second? And 172 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: in some respects it's kind of surprising because stable coins 173 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: were supposed to be the safest aspect of the crypto 174 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: system and then turned out to be very problematic. Although 175 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: I guess you can say that about a lot of 176 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: financial history. The safest assets often turn out to be 177 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: the problematic ones. But yes, what was it that made 178 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: you take that cautious approach? 179 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 4: So if we back up a little bit and you know, 180 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 4: just the rise of crypto. So I became Acting Comptroller 181 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 4: in May of twenty twenty one, and that year alone, 182 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 4: crypto was just on a. 183 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: That was a big that was a big year of 184 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 2: growth for. 185 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 4: Crypto in general and stable coins, and so there's a 186 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 4: lot of hype, a lot of fomo, and it felt 187 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,599 Speaker 4: familiar to me because it felt a lot like derivatives 188 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 4: and structured finance circa two thousand and four to two 189 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 4: thousand and six. 190 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: Right, you pool all this stuff and then you trade 191 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: it as well, one for one. 192 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 4: And so there's Julian Ted got this great book, Fools Gold, 193 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 4: and I recommend it to everybody because chapter one innovation, 194 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 4: Chapter two, perversion, Chapter three crisis, and so this cycle 195 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 4: happens over. The first innovations for credit to fault swaps 196 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 4: were really really good. They solved problems, it was amazing, 197 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 4: it's great, and then people are just innovating for innovation's sake, 198 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 4: and then you have the high priests who understands this. Oh, 199 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 4: only the p HD with you know, who understand you know, 200 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 4: nuclear physics can actually explain the stuff, and that leads 201 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 4: to it creates an environment where it can just kind 202 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 4: of eat itself. And so I had a feeling within 203 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 4: crypto maybe that's what's happening. And so of course I 204 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 4: think we do what we do best in government. We 205 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 4: dig in, what are the facts, let's like crack the 206 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 4: thing open and try to understand this best we can. 207 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 4: And the more we looked, the more worrying signs of like, hmm, 208 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 4: this is not all it's cracked up to be. And 209 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 4: especially with stable coins, there was a big gap between 210 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 4: the talk and the reality, and so that just sets 211 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 4: a whole bunch of flags up. And so, yeah, you're 212 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 4: trying to telegraph very clearly to banks like, look, if 213 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 4: you're going to get into crypto, it's got to be safe, 214 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 4: sound and fair. Do your homework, you know, make sure 215 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 4: you have those controls in place. And so for the 216 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 4: banks that were, you know, like I call them crypto curious, 217 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 4: and there were a lot at the time, they lost 218 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 4: interest because I think they recognized, oh that that takes 219 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 4: an awful lot of work, and then once the crypto 220 00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 4: winter happened, you know, a lot of that, there was 221 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 4: a big pull. 222 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: Back from that, right Well, the one other thing I 223 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: want to ask is stable coins aside. You know, we 224 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: did see a little bit of contagion from the crypto 225 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: turmoil of twenty twenty two into the banking system. So 226 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: notably we saw Silvergate collapse, and I guess we can 227 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: debate how much of that was due to pure crypto 228 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: or other dynamics with deposit outflows and things like that. 229 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: But does it feel to you looking at the US 230 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: banking landscape now in twenty twenty three, that there's enough 231 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: of a barrier between regulated banks and crypto, there's enough 232 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,839 Speaker 1: of a sort of insulation there. 233 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 4: So I'm going to knock on I'm not sure if 234 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 4: this would I'm want to knock on it. 235 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: Our producer Carmen's going to kill you for making ambient 236 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: noise during the podcast. 237 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 4: The short answer is, I think so. And that's in 238 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 4: part because across all the federal banking agencies, we've been 239 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 4: very clear and unified about how we feel and what 240 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 4: our expectations are about banks engaging in risky activities such 241 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 4: as crypto those risks out, you provide an interagency guidance. Again, 242 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 4: it's not to say that banks can't do it, but 243 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 4: if a bank is going to do it, whatever it is, 244 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 4: it's got to be safe, sound, and fair, and they 245 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 4: have to prove that to us. We feel that that's 246 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 4: very appropriate given what's taking place in the crypto space. Again, 247 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 4: if you go back, I think the stats are about 248 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 4: a billion dollars of fraud, two billion dollars of scams, 249 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 4: and three billion dollars of hacks last year. Like that's 250 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 4: that's a risky space. That's not to say everybody's bad, 251 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 4: because that's not true. There are good players in that space, 252 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 4: but it's a risky space, and so we expect banks 253 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 4: to do that work. And I think most banks either 254 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 4: they're doing that work or they're decided it's just not 255 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 4: really worth it. 256 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 2: So crypto is by no means a monolith. 257 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: And even though you've taken a cautious approach to stable coins, 258 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: I get the sense that you're a little bit more 259 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: interested in another aspect of crypto, tokenization. You're holding a 260 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: big tokenization conference, right, what's the draw there? 261 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 4: So is hosting a tokenization symposium on February eighth, Market 262 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 4: calendars open to the public. Our keynote is going to 263 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 4: be Hyon Sugtion from the BIS. I know you enjoyed 264 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 4: one of our favorites. Yeah, and and Hun is fantastic 265 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 4: because he's got a very broad perspective across both monetary policy, research, banking, 266 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 4: and all things kind of crypto digital assets related. Because 267 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 4: that the BIS, I've got the innovation hub, and there's 268 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 4: a lot of intersection between you know, his research and 269 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 4: what they've been doing. In a word, there's been a 270 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 4: growing divide between crypto and tokenization and tokenization of real 271 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 4: world assets and liabilities. Most crypto is not backed by 272 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 4: anything bitcoin, ether, et cetera, or if yes or stable coins. 273 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 4: Tokenization is a different game, you know crypto's it's retail 274 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 4: focused and most of the interest in those coins is 275 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 4: based on hope for speculative gain. Tokenization is about solving 276 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 4: a settlement problem. And this is real for your listeners. 277 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 4: Now we're in the plumbing of the system and for 278 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 4: those who know, like when you buy a share of stock, 279 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 4: there's all this stuff that happens in the background. It 280 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 4: involves multiple players, there's different handoffs, there's risk that gets 281 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 4: transformed into different ways. It's complicated, and it's it creates frictions, 282 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 4: and it creates costs. So if there's a way to 283 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 4: make that settlement process better, why not. And I think 284 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 4: that's the that's the promise of tokenization, is that some 285 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 4: of those risks and frictions can be addressed by basically 286 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 4: taking messaging and settlement and combining that. 287 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: And can you explain that a little bit further Because 288 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: when I think I think tokenization, I think, like, I 289 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: presume these are centralized databases, and then I think, well, 290 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: what's the difference between a tokenized central database versus an 291 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: Excel spreadsheet? Right that's password protected? Yes, Like what is 292 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: the innovation here? Right? 293 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 4: So this is a very important point blockchain. I I 294 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 4: didn't say. 295 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: Blockchain, No you didn't, okay, And I think that's a. 296 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 4: Very important distinction, right. I think there's been a little 297 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 4: bit of a how should I what's the best way 298 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 4: to put it? It's almost like a raw shot test, 299 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 4: you know, you say blockchain, and some folks that, oh, 300 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 4: that's the next big thing, whether they understand it or not, like, oh, 301 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 4: it's super efficient and fast. It's not super efficient or fast. 302 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I remember that the years when we were 303 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: going to put everything on the blockchain, like groceries or 304 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: like balsamic vinegar was going to be traceable on the 305 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: blockchain to make sure it came from a specific region 306 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: and things like that. 307 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 4: Right, and so the design of public blockchains was there 308 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 4: were certain reasons for doing it. If you go back 309 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 4: to the the Satoshi Nakamoto white paper, that paper is 310 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 4: pretty fascinating and it's a really interesting paper, and it 311 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 4: makes the case for why you should do something that way. 312 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 4: But to your point, Tracy, if the problem you're trying 313 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 4: to solve is settlement frictions, you don't need that, and 314 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 4: in fact, that probably just slows things down and gums 315 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 4: things up. They're better to do that. Now, what's the 316 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 4: what's the innovation? That's your question. What's the innovation? It's 317 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 4: basically taking messaging and settlement and combining it. That's different 318 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 4: because right now, when you again we'll use the example, 319 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 4: when you buy a share of stock, you're sending a 320 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 4: message to buy, you know, a share of Tesla or something, 321 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 4: and then that message goes and then a bunch of 322 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 4: other things have to happen before that thing actually settles. 323 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 4: Your money gets transferred, you get a share of stock, 324 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 4: and that's held somewhere, and you have everyone's fully aware 325 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 4: that that has happened. With tokenization, you actually collapse a 326 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 4: lot of those steps into into a single thing. 327 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: Oh, I see, So multiple processes can exist as sort 328 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: of like one thing exactly that can then move through 329 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: the system and be verified exactly. 330 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 4: And you know, for again, for the for the for 331 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 4: the banking nerds and the payment nerds out there, this 332 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 4: is exciting. Now it's hard to tell this story to 333 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 4: a retail because it's hard to see that difference. But 334 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 4: those costs and those frictions add up, and there's quite 335 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 4: a bit of time and effort that gets put into identifying, addressing, assessing, 336 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 4: managing those risks and frictions. And so you know that 337 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 4: in the for the regulators in the central banks that 338 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 4: had been kind of interested in this space, a lot 339 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 4: of the the more of the excitement going forward is 340 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 4: really in this kind of tokenization space rather than in 341 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 4: kind of the retail space, which I think is been 342 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 4: colored by a lot of the recent of vicaild accent. 343 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,239 Speaker 1: Well, since we're on the topic of financial innovation and 344 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: we are essentially at a fintech conference. We're at Money 345 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: twenty twenty. I want to ask you about a recent 346 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: publication from the OCC. It's the inter Agency has a 347 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: very catchy name, the inter Agency Kidance on Third Party Relationships. 348 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: Is that just basically a way of saying that you're 349 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: worried about fintech partnerships with the banks. 350 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 4: So the guidance is broader than just that, but you're 351 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 4: onto something. So let me let me just zoom out 352 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 4: for a second. That guidance is geared towards banks relationships 353 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 4: with any vendors, any third parties. 354 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 2: Okay, so payments as well and things like. 355 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 4: That, but a bunch of others as well. And so 356 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 4: you know, the story I like to tell is your 357 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 4: way back in the beginning, all of banking was done 358 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 4: by banks, and so you can imagine like there's like 359 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 4: a box and you can label that banks and banking 360 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 4: ills the same box. They did everything by themselves, and 361 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 4: then over time they had to rely on others to 362 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 4: do certain things. And you know, probably the clearest example 363 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 4: is like with the core processors. A lot of banks 364 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 4: rely on the core processors to do certain processing accounting, 365 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 4: you know, reconciliations, et cetera. And so that's now there's 366 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 4: a dependency. And so as a regulator, you say, how 367 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 4: do I ensure that everything that that bank does is safe, 368 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 4: sound and fair. Oh, I need to make sure that 369 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 4: what they've done with that third party is up to snuff. Right, 370 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 4: If it's slipshot, if it's done sloppily, things can break 371 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 4: and then the bank will say, oh, that wasn't my fault, 372 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 4: and they'll blame it on someone else. But at the 373 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 4: end of the day, the bank itself is not going 374 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 4: to be safe. We don't have a safe and sound system. 375 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 4: So we want to make sure that that standard kind 376 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 4: of carries through. It's almost like an extension of the bank, 377 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 4: if you will. Okay, that's one on one. Now we 378 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 4: fast forward to today. Now it's way more complicated because 379 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 4: not only do you have lots of different kinds of vendors, 380 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 4: Like a lot of banks are now saying, hey, why 381 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 4: stop with cores. We can do this with a lot 382 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 4: of because our comparative vantage is different than a lot 383 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 4: of the technology that's out there. There's a whole bunch 384 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 4: of different use cases in terms of vendors. Now the 385 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 4: tables are being turned. Now you've got some FinTechs that 386 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 4: are going to customers say we will be the interface 387 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 4: with you to take a deposit and make a loan, 388 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 4: et cetera. But we need a bank to actually do that, 389 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 4: and so then they go to the bank. So in 390 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 4: the sense the bank is the is the provider. That's 391 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 4: why it's banking as a service, the bank providing that service. 392 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 4: But the dependency is flipped around. 393 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like, you know, we used to talk 394 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: about the disintermediation of banks, and someone brought this up 395 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: in our discord recently. Apparently I wrote an article which 396 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: I'd forgotten, but all the time, Yeah, when there was 397 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: all that excitement about peer to peer lending or direct lending. Yeah, 398 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: Wells Fargo apparently like put out a notice to its 399 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: employees saying, please do not invest in peer to peer 400 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: lending because they're a direct competitor to us. Right, the 401 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: whole idea was cut out the banks and people could 402 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: make loans to each other. But now it's almost like disaggregation. 403 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: It's we're disaggregating the banks. We're sort of like taking 404 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: pieces away, or like there are new players, new companies 405 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,239 Speaker 1: that are tapping the banks for specific pieces it's all 406 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: very confusing. 407 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 4: Well it's confusing, but there's there's a logic to it. 408 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 4: And so the analogy I like to draw is if 409 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 4: you go back to pre two thousand and eight capital 410 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 4: markets disintermediated banking, and it was really the the lending 411 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 4: and the deposit taking right. Money funds took deposit taking, 412 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 4: and securitization took blending. 413 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: By the way, this is how you get a financial 414 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: journalists attention. When you say here's a pre two thousand 415 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: and eight analogy, I'm all ears, I'm like, yes, tell 416 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: me so. 417 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 4: If you drew a picture and one of my favorite 418 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 4: pictures of this Zultan pos Aar, who is another favorite, 419 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 4: He drew this map, his famous map. 420 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: That he had pinned on the wall of the New 421 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: York Fast more than I mean a bunch of a 422 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: bunch of folks had this. 423 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 4: It was a gigantic map, and uh, you know again 424 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 4: for the nerds on the podcast, it was it's basically 425 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 4: t accounts, assets, liabilities, equity, but for different points of 426 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 4: a system. And it did what any good financial follow 427 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 4: the money right. You just follow the money. 428 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: Right, how it's moving through the banking system and the 429 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: shadow banking system and. 430 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 4: That so Zultan and then Adam Ashcraft was a co 431 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 4: author on the Shadow Banking paper, which basically said what 432 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 4: banks used to do as lenders has now been broken 433 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 4: up into six pieces or multiple pieces, and each piece 434 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 4: is being done by a differnt group. So origination, remember 435 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,719 Speaker 4: new century, and option to one. They would do originations 436 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 4: for mortgages, warehouse lenning, someone else would do warehouse lending. 437 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 4: Distributions someone else would do. So you and you look 438 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 4: at that and say, well does that make sense? Well, 439 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 4: there's like a specialty there, okay, and maybe they're particularly 440 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 4: good at that, and there's economies of scale. 441 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, they would argue efficiency. 442 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 4: Right, efficiencies, and so you'd say that that logic in 443 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 4: and of itself on a micro scale made sense. It's 444 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 4: only when you zoomed out and you looked at the 445 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 4: whole thing that you said, oh, oh does this hold? 446 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 4: And I think the real the insight from the you know, 447 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 4: the Posar Ashcraft work was all the FED facilities matched 448 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 4: up to each of those points. So it's almost like 449 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 4: the discount window was recreated for what had been disintermediated, 450 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 4: which is quite intuitive actually. So it gets back to 451 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 4: this idea I have, which which I think others have 452 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 4: talked about it's like you've got the conservation of matter. 453 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 4: Like risk is neither created nor destroyed. It just it 454 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 4: can transform and be chopped up and reallocated. But it 455 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 4: all adds up to the same thing. And so now 456 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 4: we fast forward to today and this is what's happening 457 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 4: with payments. And if you talk to the payments companies, 458 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 4: they say, it doesn't make any sense to basically have 459 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 4: a full system like front to back on this, like 460 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 4: you want to slice it up, because different companies do 461 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 4: a different job on things where they're better at it. 462 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 4: So it's very similar logic to the capital markets systant mediation. 463 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,719 Speaker 4: And again each point makes sense when you do it 464 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 4: one by one, when you zoom out, what does it 465 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 4: look like and what's the risk reward and who's bearing 466 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 4: what risk? 467 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: Well, okay, so just on this point, I mean, maybe 468 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: I'm reading too much into the two thousand and eight analogy, 469 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: but like one of the reasons it all went off 470 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: the rails is because as you had all these different 471 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: entities doing different things, there was kind of less and 472 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: less return for all of them, and so the temptation 473 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: was to start levering it up and try to amplify 474 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: whatever yields you could get. Is that the risk here 475 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: or I guess talk to us concretely about the risks. 476 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: And then secondly, is there enough for return to actually 477 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: go around? 478 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 2: Because when I look at all. 479 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: These different little pieces of banking services, it feels like 480 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: there are so many players all kind of offering similar things. 481 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 4: So I think that's a very very valid question. And 482 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 4: I know there have some both fintech and bank analysts 483 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 4: who have kind of looked into this, and they're raising 484 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 4: very similar questions like is there enough to go around 485 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 4: to support such a complex ecosystem. But let's take a 486 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 4: step back. Let's go back to banking as a service. 487 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 4: With banking as a service, there's a spectrum, and at 488 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 4: one end of the spectrum, you'll have what I think 489 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 4: of something that's relatively simple. You've got a fintech, you've 490 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 4: got a really cool app targeted at a population that 491 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 4: they're really familiar with, they know it's going to work, 492 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 4: and you've got a bank who traditionally doesn't know how 493 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 4: to engage to acquire that customer. So they partner together 494 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 4: and they said, let's go get that customer together, and 495 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 4: the bank says that customer is my customer as much 496 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 4: as it is yours, and they apply all the KYC 497 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 4: and the compliance and all of the bells and whistles 498 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 4: that they would provide to any other customer is apply 499 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 4: to that customer. Very simple, hard to scale, but relatively simple, straightforward, 500 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 4: and then they you know, what's the rev split between 501 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 4: those two and they can negotiate that. At the other 502 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 4: end of the spectrum, you've got banks, who then who 503 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,959 Speaker 4: do they deal with. They're like, this is too complicated. 504 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 4: We just want to provide the banking as a service, 505 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 4: but we want to do it at scale and low. Behold. 506 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 4: There's some companies out there. This is what they do. 507 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 4: So you know, often they're referred to as middleware and 508 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 4: they'll say, well, if you come to us, we have 509 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 4: partnerships with lots of FinTechs and we have partner and 510 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 4: they tell the FinTechs we have partnership with lots of banks. 511 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 2: It's funny. 512 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: It's like there's wear all the way down. 513 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so funny. 514 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 4: And so they go to them and again there I 515 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 4: don't want to paint all of them with Abroad, there 516 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 4: is a there is a spectrum on this, and some 517 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 4: of it is done in a way that I think 518 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 4: can be safe, sound and fair, and others we've seen 519 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 4: that's not the case. And so in those instances, the 520 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 4: bank has no idea who the real customer is and 521 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 4: the fintech is like, look, we don't do compliance, we 522 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 4: don't do ky. See, someone else shall handle that. And 523 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 4: so we're right back to this picture of each slice 524 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 4: is doing something slightly different. And you know, in my 525 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 4: experience where that happens unless there's a lot of clarity 526 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 4: about who's bearing what responsibility when bad things happen, everyone's 527 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 4: pointing at each other and that that's a mess. And 528 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 4: we don't want that. And so, you know, it's really 529 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 4: important for us as this ecosystem evolves, and we've got 530 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 4: an eye on that and we guide it towards, you know, 531 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 4: things that are healthy, because there is good innovation out 532 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 4: there that can be paired, that can be incorporated to 533 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 4: the banking system. But we want to make sure that 534 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 4: we don't end up with this kind of patchworky you know, disintermediated, 535 00:26:47,560 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 4: disaggregated mess. 536 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: Since you are the oldest banking regulator in the US, 537 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: I want to ask you a little bit about the 538 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: banking landscape post SVB, And one thing that it feels 539 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: to me that regulators are still sort of grappling with 540 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: is what they want the banking system to look like. Yes, 541 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: do you want a sort of Canadian style system where 542 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: you have like six megabanks and everyone banks with them 543 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: and they're highly highly regulated. Or do you want the 544 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: sort of vibrant, it's a wonderful life style banking system 545 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: where there's local banks everywhere and everyone knows you, and 546 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 1: you know your banker will personally extend you alone and 547 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: things like that. Where does occ fall on that debate? 548 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: Do you have a vision of what you want? 549 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 4: I get this question a lot, and it's half a 550 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 4: loaf of a question. And the reason I say that 551 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 4: is because it's, just like you said, the instinct of 552 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 4: folks who are asking you are who are contemplating this 553 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 4: usually is to say there's too manyks, Like you know, 554 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 4: four thousand is too many, what's the right number? Or 555 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 4: to compare to other countries. And what it's missing is 556 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 4: banks exist to serve people in communities in the economy. 557 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 4: So what's missing from the question is, well, who are 558 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 4: the people communities in the economy that we're trying to support. 559 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 4: The US is very very different in Canada, right, We've 560 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 4: got three hundred and thirty million people, We've got a 561 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 4: very diverse economy, lots of different communities, and so that 562 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 4: argues that we need to have an equally diverse banking system. 563 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 4: So it's almost like, you know, regulators, we bank love 564 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 4: to think in terms of ratios. So the question of 565 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 4: like what should the banking system look like is the 566 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 4: numerit the denominator is what the economy looks like. And 567 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 4: as long as we have a really diverse economy, we 568 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 4: need a really diverse banking system because one size doesn't 569 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 4: fit all, Like the large megabanks can't serve don't want 570 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 4: to serve all those different you know, I've got this 571 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 4: debate yesterday with one of the participments about this long 572 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 4: tail of cases in the US economy. We have a 573 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 4: very long tail of different communities, whether they're geographic or otherwise, 574 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 4: and I think those are opportunities for banking. So then 575 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 4: the question is like what is the best way to 576 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 4: meet and empower all of them? That to me, that's 577 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 4: the real central question of merger policy. How do we 578 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 4: set up merger policy so that we're approving, we're considering 579 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 4: mergers that empower those communities. 580 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: Oh yes, so I believe there was some discussion of 581 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: updating the Merger Guidance post SVB to sort of get 582 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: at this question. 583 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 2: Is that still on the table. 584 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, it's on the table and it's taking some time, 585 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 4: but it's because we want and we need to put 586 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 4: people communities at the center of that analysis. You know, 587 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 4: we've got statutory factors. We're kind of working through that, 588 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 4: and there's a lot of detail around that. But as 589 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 4: long as we have that long tail and as long 590 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 4: as the US economy keeps growing, you know, the banking 591 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,479 Speaker 4: system has to grow with the US economy. So if 592 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 4: you were to just graph US GDP and the side 593 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 4: of the banking system, they pretty much match on top 594 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 4: of each other. So as long as the US economy 595 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 4: keeps growing and different parts of the economy grow, we 596 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 4: want and need the banking system to grow with that. 597 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 4: It's got to be safe, sound unfair. And this is 598 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 4: why I spend so much time on large banks, because 599 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 4: there are going to be more and more complex large 600 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 4: banks in the future. They need to be resilient, they 601 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 4: need to be resolvable and they need to be manageable, 602 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 4: and so we spend a lot of time like, let's 603 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 4: articulate that so we don't get back into the pre 604 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 4: two thousand and eight pickle where you've got large banks 605 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 4: that are not either resilient, resolvable, or manageable. That's not 606 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 4: a place that we can afford to be. 607 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: So, since we're talking sort of existential questions for the 608 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: US banking landscape, one of the things that's been on 609 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: my mind, especially in the context of fintech and I 610 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: guess payments, innovation and things like that, there is still 611 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,719 Speaker 1: a difference in the US between commerce and banking, and 612 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: it's sort of like never the Twain show me. Every 613 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: once in a while there's a rumor that like Walmart 614 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: wants to start a bank or something, and then it 615 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: gets shot down because it's not allowed in the US. 616 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: But I kind of wonder, you know, post SVB, as 617 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: banks continue to be disrupted by new digital technology, there 618 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: are digital bank runs nowadays and things like that, would 619 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: there be room for a bank of Apple, for instance, 620 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: or a bank of Amazon, or even a bank of 621 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: Berkshire Hathaway. 622 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: I know it's not a tech company, but. 623 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: You know, these are companies with huge amounts of money. 624 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: Maybe it would be nice to have a really well 625 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: capitalized bank as interest rates are going up. 626 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 4: So this is probably you need an entire other podcast 627 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 4: to talk about this. It's a fascinating question. The history 628 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 4: of the blending of banking and commerce is not a 629 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 4: good one. In generally the history. 630 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: Is wasn't Well's Fargo as stagecoach operation that seemed to 631 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: work out? 632 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: Okay? 633 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 4: Where we have I mean, if you go back to 634 00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 4: two thousand and eight. 635 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 2: Right, like you'd say, like the facetious but you're right, But. 636 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 4: There we have lots and lots of examples where we said, hey, 637 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:06,959 Speaker 4: wouldn't it be great if we took these things and 638 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 4: like you take the best of each and it's like, 639 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 4: you know, the chocolate and the peanut buttery, you put 640 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 4: them together and we get something better. And in almost 641 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 4: every single case I can think of, it's ended quite badly. 642 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 4: And there's two problems that are associated with that which 643 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 4: we really have to be careful of. One is there 644 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 4: does become an unusually high concentration of power market power, 645 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 4: because they reinforce, the banking and the commerce reinforce each 646 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 4: other in the way that's quite unfair and that can 647 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 4: have you know, a lot of negative impacts. So that's 648 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 4: one thing to be attentive to. And the other is 649 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 4: the opportunities for problems go up because now how commerce 650 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 4: goes impacts banking. And again that's not a safety and 651 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 4: sound that's that's outside of the zone of how safety 652 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 4: and sound is a supervision a typical thing goes. So 653 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 4: that's that's why we've had this separation. I do think today, 654 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 4: going forward, this is going to become a bigger and 655 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 4: bigger question to deal with because payments by itself is commerce. 656 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 4: When you start to put it next to things that 657 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 4: are adjacent to payments, lending, credit deposits, savings, et cetera, 658 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 4: that's banking, and this is this is a very fluid 659 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 4: you know, rarely does the payments company say we're just 660 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 4: going to do payments and that's all we're gonna do forever. 661 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 4: At some point they say, hey, wouldn't it be great 662 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 4: if we just did a little bit of you know, 663 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 4: paid a little bit of yield on this on this 664 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 4: cash that's sitting with us. Wouldn't be great we did 665 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 4: did some lending. 666 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: It's a slippery slope to being a bank. Yes, happened 667 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: to everyone. 668 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 4: Yes, and so we want to be really really attentive 669 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 4: to that. And look, if there's a way to do 670 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 4: it that's going to be safe, sound and unfair without 671 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,959 Speaker 4: financial stability concerns, I'm open, like, let's talk about that. 672 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 4: But history has proven that that's. 673 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: That's tough to do, all right, Michael Sue, thank you 674 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: so much for coming on atholet's really appreciate it. 675 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me. 676 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: All right, Well, that was the live conversation recorded at 677 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: Money twenty twenty with the OCCS. Michael Sue, Joe, do 678 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: you regret not going Tracy? 679 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 3: You're so capable as a host, That is my conclusion. 680 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 3: You're so capable as a host you don't even need me. 681 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 3: And I think next year we're going to be sending 682 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 3: you on the road for a lot of solo trips 683 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 3: and I'll just hang back in. 684 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: Tweet you flatter me to make yourself feel less guilty. 685 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: But that's okay. 686 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: I thought it was a super interesting conversation. Michael's a 687 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: big All Thoughts fan, which was kind of fun, and 688 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: maybe we inspired him with the supply chain analogy. 689 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: I hope so me too. 690 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 4: I love it all right? 691 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: Shall we leave it there? 692 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 3: Let's leave it there. 693 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. 694 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. 695 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. 696 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 3: Follow our producer Carman Rodriguez at Carman armand dash Ol 697 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 3: Bennett at Dashbot and kel Brooks at kel Brooks. And 698 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,760 Speaker 3: thank you to our producer Moses Ondam. From our Odlots content, 699 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 3: go to bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots, where we 700 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 3: have a blog, a transcript, and a weekly newsletter that 701 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 3: comes out every Friday. And check out the Odlogs Discord 702 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 3: Discord dot gg, slash odd Logs chat with fellow listeners 703 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 3: twenty four to seven. 704 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: And if you enjoy odd Lots, if you want us 705 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: both to go back to Las Vegas at some point, 706 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 1: then please leave us a positive review on your favorite 707 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: podcast platform. 708 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.