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Speaker 1: Doesn't it feel like we're hostages in our own country

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Speaker 1: that were hostages to this vocal minority, this woke mob

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Speaker 1: that are trying to dictate how we live our lives,

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Speaker 1: what we can talk about, what's acceptable or not. And

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Speaker 1: of course they virtue signal without having any virtue or

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Speaker 1: morality themselves. We're at a really weird place in society today,

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Speaker 1: and I'm interested in finding out and talking to someone

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Speaker 1: in this episode. Jennifer Say, who actually was a cancel

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Speaker 1: culture victim who was forced out of her job at Levi's.

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Speaker 1: She was the brand president. She was on track to

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Speaker 1: be the Genes company CEO, but she was forced out

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Speaker 1: for simply just raising questions about COVID. You know, she's

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Speaker 1: got kids. She was worried what school closures would do,

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Speaker 1: what impact that would have on her children, and they said,

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Speaker 1: you know what, you got to shut up or ship out,

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Speaker 1: and so she chose to resign as opposed to taking

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Speaker 1: money and musling herself. So she experienced this woke mob

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Speaker 1: both as just a human being in today's society during COVID,

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Speaker 1: but also as an executive at a major corporation. So

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to her about that and then also,

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Speaker 1: what does this mean for society with gen Z, this

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Speaker 1: TikTok generation, What is her workforce going to look like

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Speaker 1: in the future, And how much control the CEOs really

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Speaker 1: even have when they're seemingly being held captive by these

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Speaker 1: justice warrior employees. So that conversation and more. She's also

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Speaker 1: the author of a new book, Levi's and Button. It's

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Speaker 1: an autobiography of her time at Levi's. She's also the

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Speaker 1: author of a book called Chalked Up. It's an autobiography

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Speaker 1: of her time as an elite gymnast. And she was

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Speaker 1: a producer of athlete A, a documentary on the Larry

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Speaker 1: a Star scandal at USA Gymnastics. The film ended up

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Speaker 1: winning an Emmy as well. So interesting background, interesting story,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to get into all of it with

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Say. Well, Jennifer, it's so good to have you

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Speaker 1: on the show. You know, I want to obviously get

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Speaker 1: into what led to your resigning from Levi, But I

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Speaker 1: mean that track to get to the position a brand president,

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Speaker 1: to be on the CEO track, I mean you put

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Speaker 1: in a lot of sweat equity. It's a major company.

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Speaker 1: Talk about sort of that journey to get to the

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Speaker 1: point where you were before you left. Yeah, I thank

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Speaker 1: you for having me. First of all, I spent the

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Speaker 1: better part of my adulthood at Levi's Climbing Climbing the Ladder.

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Speaker 1: I started there in nineteen ninety nine. I was not

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Speaker 1: my first job, but certainly very early in my career.

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Speaker 1: I was an entry level marketing assistant. I didn't even

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Speaker 1: really know what I wanted, but I loved the brand

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Speaker 1: and I loved the product, and I'd warned the product

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Speaker 1: since I was a young child, you know. I'd tell

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Speaker 1: a story in the book that I wrote, Levi's I'm Betton.

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Speaker 1: I traveled to Moscow in nineteen eighty six for the

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Speaker 1: very first good Will Games, which was sort of this rogue,

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Speaker 1: you know, Olympic style competition, and I brought ten pairs

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Speaker 1: of Levi's five O ones to trade with the Russian gymnasts.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they were part of my life, and they

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Speaker 1: represented rugged individualism and sort of the best of American values.

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Speaker 1: And I loved this company. So I started there in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, worked my way up the ladder, which

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Speaker 1: wasn't particularly easy as a woman in the nineties and

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Speaker 1: two thousands, it was a pretty inhospitable environment to women,

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Speaker 1: I would say, and I think, you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: testament to how far we have come that it is

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Speaker 1: much better now. It was very male dominated, you know,

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Speaker 1: you spend time at sales meetings with drunken sales guys

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Speaker 1: trying trying to avoid you know, advances and that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. But I climbed my way up, and in

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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen I made it to cheap Marketing Officer, which

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Speaker 1: is a really big and public facing role that helps

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Speaker 1: to steer the direction of the brand and the company

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Speaker 1: and the brand. The company wasn't doing well, you know,

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Speaker 1: we were near bankruptcy in twenty eleven, the storied iconic brand,

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Speaker 1: and eight years in the role as CMO, I helped

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Speaker 1: bring it back and helped us to an IPO. We

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Speaker 1: went public in twenty nineteen, very successfully. And I, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was just I was disciplined, curious. I took pride

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Speaker 1: in being a leader and helping people build careers, you know,

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Speaker 1: at the company. But in two and twenty, when the

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Speaker 1: schools shut down and we went into total lockdown in

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Speaker 1: San Francisco and across the country, I was alarmed and

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Speaker 1: I was reading the data that showed that children were

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Speaker 1: at no risk, and I was very outspoken. I have

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Speaker 1: four children, all public school students, and I was outspoken

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Speaker 1: about all of the restrictions to children from the outset,

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Speaker 1: you know, right from March thirteen, twenty twenty. And by outspoken,

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Speaker 1: you know on social media, I wrote off as I

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Speaker 1: was on a local news and eventually, in the late

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Speaker 1: fall of twenty twenty started leading rallies to try to

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Speaker 1: get the schools open, and it was a conflict internally.

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Speaker 1: I was told repeatedly I needed to stop, that it

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Speaker 1: was upsetting to people. I did not stop for two years,

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Speaker 1: and eventually I was told there was no longer a

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Speaker 1: place for me at the company. Now, during this two years,

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Speaker 1: I was promoted as you indicated to brand President, which

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Speaker 1: is you know, next in line for CEO, and I

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Speaker 1: think a testament to the fact that I was performing

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Speaker 1: in my duties. But what I was doing was quote

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Speaker 1: unquote upsetting to people and it went against the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party narrative. And I was told I needed to leave,

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Speaker 1: and I was offered severance. Did not accept it because

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to sign a nondisclosure agreement. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to be able to speak out about the censorship and

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Speaker 1: the liberalism. And so here we are and I'm talking

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Speaker 1: to you. So how did they approach you? Were they

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Speaker 1: just you know, kind of what were those conversations like

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Speaker 1: when they were obviously identifying things that they weren't happy

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Speaker 1: with in terms of you know, what you were saying

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Speaker 1: about COVID. It didn't start for about six months, so

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Speaker 1: I think the first call that I, you know, noted

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Speaker 1: was in September of two and twenty. And you know,

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Speaker 1: as I was tweeting and writing staff and you know,

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Speaker 1: I kept thinking, well, if someone called me, I'll you know,

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Speaker 1: think about it. But you know, no one's saying. I

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Speaker 1: didn't really have a very large follow and I'll just

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Speaker 1: keep going this is too important. But in the fall

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, I got a call from our head

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Speaker 1: of corporate communications and that role. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: she would define it as protecting the corporate reputation, you know,

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Speaker 1: of the company, and I think she saw what I

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Speaker 1: was doing as potentially harmful to the reputation of the company.

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Speaker 1: Though I never identified myself as an employee, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was speaking as a mom and a citizen, and

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Speaker 1: she said, people are noticing people are upset with what

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Speaker 1: you're saying. And I said, okay, I understand that, but

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Speaker 1: I think it's the right thing to do, to stand

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Speaker 1: up for children. And at this point, you know, it

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Speaker 1: was the fall of twenty We knew so much. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we knew so much in the beginning, but we knew,

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Speaker 1: you know, that the median age of death was in

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Speaker 1: the eighties. We knew that children were mercifully protected. We

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Speaker 1: knew that European schools had been opened, and we knew

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Speaker 1: that the private schools in my city were about to open.

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Speaker 1: And this woman was about to send her children back

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Speaker 1: to in person school while telling me I could not

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Speaker 1: advocate for the same for the low income children of

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Speaker 1: San Francisco. So, you know, she said, people are upset.

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Speaker 1: You need to probably think about it and stop. And

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Speaker 1: I said I don't. I don't want to. And I said,

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Speaker 1: are you telling me I have to? And she said, no,

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Speaker 1: I can't do that. I don't know if she meant

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Speaker 1: because you know, legally she can't, or because she was

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Speaker 1: a peer and she didn't have the authority. And I said,

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Speaker 1: then I'm not going to and she said, will you

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Speaker 1: hold the line? And I didn't really understand what that meant.

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Speaker 1: And I said, you know, I'm not going to identify

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Speaker 1: myself as a Levi's employee. I'm not speaking on behalf

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Speaker 1: of the company. That's what I will offer you. And

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Speaker 1: we hung up, and from then on, every two weeks,

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Speaker 1: I'd get a call from somebody else, you know, from

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Speaker 1: the head of legal, from a board member, and the

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Speaker 1: conversation pretty much went the same way. It didn't start

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Speaker 1: to accelerate and kind of escalate in intensity in the

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Speaker 1: spring of twenty one, after I appeared on Fox, which

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Speaker 1: is a no no apparently, And of course you're right.

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Speaker 1: We knew the entire time that you know, the remote

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Speaker 1: learning was not going to be good for kids, that

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Speaker 1: you know, kids have been set back so far in

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Speaker 1: terms of their learning and their development. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: really just been tragic what they did to kids. Why

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Speaker 1: did you make the decision? You know, you said that

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Speaker 1: you decided not to sign the nondisclosure you didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be muzzled, which essentially that's what it would have done.

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Speaker 1: And what was that decision making, like to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to walk away from this company. I've spent

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Speaker 1: all this time working my way up. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: the decision was whether or not to take the money

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Speaker 1: and muzzle myself. I mean I was being pushed out,

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Speaker 1: you know, a job for me was no longer an option. There.

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Speaker 1: The question was, you know, did I take the money,

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Speaker 1: give myself a quote unquote soft landing and walk away

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Speaker 1: and not talk about it? And honestly, it took me

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Speaker 1: all about, you know, a few seconds to decide. And

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Speaker 1: people ask me all the time, why why did you

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Speaker 1: throw it all away? Why was this the hill that

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Speaker 1: you were willing to die on? And my response is

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Speaker 1: always why weren't you? I mean, if we if we

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have to live in a country where we can't

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Speaker 1: express our opinions, where we can't stand up for our families,

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Speaker 1: and where we're expected to further lies because it's what

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Speaker 1: our tribe tells us to do. That is not a

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Speaker 1: free country. And if we had been able to have

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Speaker 1: a conversation, a societal conversation about this particular issue, you know,

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Speaker 1: and all the other ones having to do with COVID,

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Speaker 1: but this particular issue, I think we would have gotten

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Speaker 1: to a very different answer and we wouldn't be experiencing,

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Speaker 1: you know, the patastrophic harms that are playing out in

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Speaker 1: terms of, you know, how our kids are doing. And

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Speaker 1: so I just I couldn't silence myself, you know. I

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Speaker 1: mean it all started with me just sort of being

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Speaker 1: dogged and standing up for children. But as it progressed

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Speaker 1: over the course of two years, what became more and

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Speaker 1: more alarming was the censorship and the manufacturing of this

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Speaker 1: false consensus and the lack of any ability to kind

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Speaker 1: of have open debate and dissent around this issue. And

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Speaker 1: that almost became more important and more central, because that

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Speaker 1: affects every issue right in the country. If we can't

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Speaker 1: talk about these things, that we can't get to any

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Speaker 1: reasonable common sense solution. And so I just wasn't going

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Speaker 1: to give up my voice. It seemed too hypocritical, and

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Speaker 1: I felt like, Okay, this is a hill. I will

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Speaker 1: gladly die on the hill for freedom of speech and

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Speaker 1: the well being of children. I can't really think of

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Speaker 1: a higher purpose than that. It's more important than my job.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I decided quickly that I was not

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Speaker 1: going to take the money. I respect that because you know,

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Speaker 1: we're like minded in that way. I was actually interviewing

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Speaker 1: for the view for the Conservative Sea and I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: get vaccinated, and so you know that there goes that,

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Speaker 1: right and then and then of course they'll they all

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Speaker 1: end up with COVID regardless. But you know, no one,

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Speaker 1: of course, no one ever admits you were right about stuff.

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Speaker 1: You know, But I want to ask you, you don't

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Speaker 1: know you had mentioned that when you were starting at

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Speaker 1: Leva and you're working our way up, you felt like

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Speaker 1: this company represents the best of America. Do you still

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Speaker 1: feel that way? I would assume not. No, Yeah, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I mean I think the brand does in people's minds.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean when I when I

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Speaker 1: say the best, Like Levi's has never been a brand

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Speaker 1: that used flag imagery for instances in its advertising, but

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Speaker 1: I think the brand has very much stood for rugged individualism,

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Speaker 1: for progress and optimism and inclusion. Like you think about

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Speaker 1: who wears Levi's, right, everybody wears Levis Farmers and carpenters

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Speaker 1: and minivan moms and hipster kids and bee boys and

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Speaker 1: like everybody like that is that's kind of the promise

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Speaker 1: of America, right, that we're like united in our difference.

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Speaker 1: We all wear this brand because we can be ourselves

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Speaker 1: in it and wants something that unite us, that we

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Speaker 1: want to be ourselves, we want to express ourselves as individuals.

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Speaker 1: And I always thought that was so cool about Levis

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Speaker 1: And I think while people may not express it that

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Speaker 1: way like I just because they didn't spend twenty three

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Speaker 1: years working on the brand, I think people have that sense.

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Speaker 1: I mean I know they do, because I've talked to

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Speaker 1: people around the world, and people around the world love

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Speaker 1: that about Levi's. And I think that's why my story

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Speaker 1: has resonated, because this is not a company that people

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Speaker 1: don't know, you know, or like a giant company that

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Speaker 1: you don't really know what they do, like Salesforce. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is Levi's. Everybody has a pair in their closet

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Speaker 1: and has some sense of it as representing that promise.

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Speaker 1: And so to see this play out is alarming to people,

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Speaker 1: right And so no, I don't. I think it's anything

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Speaker 1: but inclusive. And I think they've trespassed their own stated

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Speaker 1: values and an effort to see to carry water for

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Speaker 1: the Democratic Party. You know, there's this collusion between corporate

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Speaker 1: America and kind of woke activists and and the actual

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party and the press, by the way, who just

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Speaker 1: prints you know, the press and journalists have completely fallen

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Speaker 1: off course and they print you know, government issue talking

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Speaker 1: points and corporate issue talking points from Fiser as journalism,

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Speaker 1: and that's not journalism. There's this total collusion. And so no,

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Speaker 1: I don't think they embody those values anymore. I think

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Speaker 1: they pretend to, but clearly my story is evidence of

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Speaker 1: the fact that they do not. It feels like we're

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Speaker 1: all hostages to the woke mob. We're all being held

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Speaker 1: hostage by them. Talk about how beholden our corporations to

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Speaker 1: the woke mob these days? And how did that happen?

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Speaker 1: I mean, they don't have to be, you know, I

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Speaker 1: mean they are because why yeah, why do you think

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Speaker 1: they are? Though? Well, I think it's a couple of things,

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Speaker 1: you know. I think the price one, I think these

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Speaker 1: leaders are. They lack courage, They lack moral courage, They

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Speaker 1: don't know what they think. You know, I used to

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Speaker 1: think when I was younger, I want to get in

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Speaker 1: that room where the smart people are, the executives who

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Speaker 1: are making tough calls. And I got in the room

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Speaker 1: and I was like, well, that's not what's happening here.

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Speaker 1: You know. They looked to their left and they're right

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Speaker 1: before uttering a word, and they don't speak authentically, and

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Speaker 1: they don't speak in their own voice, and I think

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Speaker 1: right now, you know, it's an attempt to profit off

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Speaker 1: of gen Z and millennial activism to say kind of

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Speaker 1: we share your value to buy our stuff, rather than

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Speaker 1: talking about we make this great product that you're going

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Speaker 1: to like and focusing on product excellence. It provides a

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Speaker 1: shield from scrutiny because the press eds it up and

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Speaker 1: then they failed to kind of scrutinize these businesses. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think someone like Sam Bankman Freed is a great

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Speaker 1: example of that. Right. He championed all these woke causes

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Speaker 1: pre pandemic planning and environmentalism, and they put them on

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Speaker 1: their covers of Forbes and Fortune, and they never did

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Speaker 1: any basic due diligence in terms of looking at the

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Speaker 1: financial fundamentals which would have revealed that he was a

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Speaker 1: fraud from the beginning. That he was celebrated for years

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Speaker 1: and enabled, you know, that enabled his theft and frauds.

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Speaker 1: So it's a shield from scrutiny. They like being celebrated.

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Speaker 1: It's not cool to be rich anymore. You have to

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Speaker 1: disavow your privilege and greed is not good. So even

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Speaker 1: though they're still greedy and want to make a ton

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Speaker 1: of money, they take these stances so they can be

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Speaker 1: celebrated in all the ways that their egos require. And

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Speaker 1: you know, lastly, they're afraid of their young employees. They

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Speaker 1: want to impress their own kids. They don't understand social media.

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Speaker 1: And so when they have their HR lead and their

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Speaker 1: corp common league coming to them and saying you have

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Speaker 1: to be very afraid of this very vocal, punitive minority,

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Speaker 1: they are, and so they cater to them. And at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, Lisa, I just don't think

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Speaker 1: it would be that hard to stand up to them,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it would not be that hard

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Speaker 1: to do. For instance, what Ted Sarandos at Netflix did

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Speaker 1: when he said, look, I know you want me to

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Speaker 1: take this off the platform, but we appeal to a

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Speaker 1: lot meaning Dave Chappelle's the Closer, But we have a

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Speaker 1: lot of viewers that like a lot of stuff. If

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Speaker 1: you don't like it, don't work here. That was it.

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Speaker 1: It was over quick commercial break more with Jennifer Say

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Speaker 1: on the other side. Well, see, that's the thing they

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Speaker 1: don't understand is when you do see companies stand up

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Speaker 1: and they're like, no, we're not going to do this.

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Speaker 1: The mob goes away and finds another, you know, they'll

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Speaker 1: find their next victim. They do that, they target. It's

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Speaker 1: like a swarm of bees. You know. You wrote in

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Speaker 1: the New York Post, which I love this, you wrote,

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Speaker 1: these twenty and thirty somethings are ideological terrorists, policing their

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Speaker 1: peers and elders relentlessly. I mean, social media has really

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Speaker 1: empowered this mob, you know. I mean it's really empowered

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Speaker 1: these young people. You know, I think a majority of

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Speaker 1: our population to have so much control over you know,

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Speaker 1: dictating sort of this fake morality and virtue signaling to

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Speaker 1: the rest of us, and holding these CEOs and companies

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Speaker 1: captive as well. Yeah, they absolutely are. And I really

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Speaker 1: honestly believe it's a very vocal, impunitive minority. I think

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Speaker 1: it's you know, under ten percent. I think the vast

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Speaker 1: majority of people are applying basic common sense and at

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Speaker 1: the very least are open to people having you know,

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Speaker 1: debate and theos. But the majorities stay quiet because they're

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Speaker 1: afraid of the minority. And that's what puts people like

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Speaker 1: me in this you know, zone of being able to

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Speaker 1: be targeted as fringe and you know, crazy and dangerous

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Speaker 1: because the majority, the majority stay silent. You know, they're afraid,

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Speaker 1: and you know, everything I faced over the course for

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Speaker 1: two years. In some ways it was you know, behind

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Speaker 1: closed doors, but in some ways it was also very public.

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Speaker 1: You know, we had these virtual town halls because we

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Speaker 1: of course we're working virtually. It was too dangerous to

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Speaker 1: go in the office and people would just call me

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Speaker 1: terrible names, and honestly they didn't have to use their names,

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Speaker 1: you know in the chat. You know, can you please

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Speaker 1: address what why Genza is here? She's a racist, she's this,

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Speaker 1: she's a fat pope, she's the anti trans Like I was,

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Speaker 1: you challenge one aspect of the platform, one tenant, and

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Speaker 1: then you get lumped into this. She's a fringe psychopath,

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Speaker 1: QAnon insane lady. And it was happening very publicly. People

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Speaker 1: knew what was happened, and so they make the choice

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Speaker 1: to stay quiet themselves. You know, nobody would even say, hey,

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Speaker 1: I don't agree with her, but she has the right

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Speaker 1: to say it. And fifty thousand public school children are

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Speaker 1: at home, we can have this conversation. Nobody wants to

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Speaker 1: do that because so the sixty seventy percent stay silent,

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Speaker 1: and you have this battle between you know, the angry,

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Speaker 1: woke mom and it is real. I don't care what

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Speaker 1: the left says. It was real. They got me outted

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Speaker 1: from my job. And then you have the people sort

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Speaker 1: of brave enough to stand it and say, hey, can

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Speaker 1: we talk about this or I'm not going to further

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Speaker 1: these lies. All of this the school close. It was

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Speaker 1: the premised you know this online. It was premised on

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Speaker 1: the lie that we were all at equal risk. It

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Speaker 1: was premised on the lie that virtual learning was school.

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Speaker 1: It was premised on the lie that kids were resilient

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Speaker 1: enough to endure this isolation and come out unscathed. And

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't further a lie, but that minority, you know,

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Speaker 1: you asked a great question. I don't understand why we're

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Speaker 1: also afraid of that when if we stood together, we

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Speaker 1: would be the mature. And you're right. I mean what

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Speaker 1: they do is they smear you. You know, I've literally

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Speaker 1: raised questions about one vaccine and like my entire professional

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Speaker 1: career about the COVID vaccines because you know, they were

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Speaker 1: produced in less than a year. Are most vaccines have

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Speaker 1: five to ten years of safety data and I'm not

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Speaker 1: at risk because I was like, sorry, I'm not getting it,

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Speaker 1: and they labeled anti vaxx or that this is what

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Speaker 1: they do. They try to silence you through smears. I

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Speaker 1: worry about you know, this sort of TikTok generation gen z.

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Speaker 1: You know these overly you know, sensitive but incredibly hostile

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Speaker 1: group of young people. Isn't it very sensitive but very hostile,

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Speaker 1: Like with our leaders wanting to fly private while telling us,

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Speaker 1: you know, we need to do something about climate change

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Speaker 1: and you're just like, none of it makes sense and

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Speaker 1: any of this, you know, we live in a clown world.

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Speaker 1: What does this mean for the future generation of our

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Speaker 1: country or workforce? I mean, I worry that we're not

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Speaker 1: producing the best and that comparatively speaking to other countries,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be left behind because you know, we're

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Speaker 1: producing a bunch of you know, cry baby victims who

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Speaker 1: think they deserve everything without ever happy to work for anything. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's interesting observing, you know, it's slightly tangential,

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Speaker 1: but like you know, San Francisco where I used to live.

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Speaker 1: I moved to Denver during all of this, but has

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Speaker 1: the lowest return to office occupancy rate. And you know,

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Speaker 1: at the time of my leaving Leavis in spring of

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Speaker 1: twenty two, they had reopened officers sort of in the

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Speaker 1: soft way, and the highest occupancy on any given day

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Speaker 1: was like fifteen percent. Like people were just refusing to

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Speaker 1: come back. And I will tell you they're not doing work.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can tell you from managing a team

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Speaker 1: for two years that was virtual. They're not. You know.

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Speaker 1: They say it's flexibility. They say they want, you know,

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Speaker 1: more flexibility, which I always allowed for anyway. I never

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Speaker 1: told people that be in their seats from nine to

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Speaker 1: six every day, you could pick up your kid, just

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Speaker 1: get your work done. But yeah, they're not. They're not

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Speaker 1: doing work, and they're they're demanding, you know, everything on

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Speaker 1: their terms. I think at the end of the day, though,

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Speaker 1: it's going to have to I'll say, from a business perspective,

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Speaker 1: business is not good. It's going to get back to

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Speaker 1: brass tax at the end of the day, they're going

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Speaker 1: to have to get back to product excellence, you know,

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Speaker 1: aspirational marketing and treating employees fairly but holding them to

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Speaker 1: account to do the work that they're supposed to do.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to hold the reins forever. And I

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Speaker 1: just I think they're gonna these businesses. I think that

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Speaker 1: CEOs are hungering to get back to business, to stop

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Speaker 1: with all the extraneous stuff, to stop listening and being

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Speaker 1: terrorized by these young people who and it's not all

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Speaker 1: young people. I had amazing young people that worked for me.

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Speaker 1: I just want to say that, but by this minority

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Speaker 1: of people who are bringing their proselytizing to the workplace,

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Speaker 1: Go work somewhere else. Go work in a nonprofit, Go

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Speaker 1: do advocacy. If you want to work in corporate America,

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Speaker 1: work on delivering a great product improves people's lives, and

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, doing it in a way that

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Speaker 1: is collaborative and people enjoy and marketed aspirationally. That's what

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Speaker 1: a business is. And I just I think that it's

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Speaker 1: just going to be necessary, and I think eventually corporate

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Speaker 1: leaders are going to have to do it out of necessity.

428
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 1: But someone needs to counsel them and give them the words.

429
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 1: They don't know how to stand up, they don't know

430
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 1: how to say the simple thing that Ted Sarandos said.

431
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: They don't know how. So some smart person has to

432
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: start to consult with them and tell them how to

433
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 1: do it, because I think they're hungry to get back

434
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 1: to it. Well, I was watching they like there's all

435
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 1: these videos circulating when Elon Musk took over Twitter and

436
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,239
Speaker 1: it was like the day in the life of you know,

437
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 1: Twitter people, and they're like, I went to yoga and

438
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 1: then I went and got by a lot to like

439
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,679
Speaker 1: I went to like my safe space. Like you're like,

440
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 1: what I think. This is not I'm thirty eight and

441
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: that's not the world I grew up and you know,

442
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: in terms of working, I mean, I've had to work

443
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 1: my butt off. You know, I don't understand this, like

444
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: the work culture these days. And I don't think COVID

445
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 1: helped either, because you know, everyone basically was told to

446
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 1: stay home and they got paid from the government. And

447
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: I think we're this really weird era from a work

448
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 1: perspective of just laziness. To be perfectly honest, Well, it

449
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: starts in the universities. You know, it's like effort not results.

450
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: I mean, remember the story I don't even know how

451
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: long ago it was at this point about the NYU profs,

452
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: the humbioprof or some some premedge prof who got fired

453
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: and the complaints from the students were that he didn't

454
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 1: account for the effort they put in to their work.

455
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: He didn't account for how hard they were working. No,

456
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 1: it's about mastery, not effort. And and you know, we

457
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: live in a world where it's been determined that you know,

458
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: a result's focus or merit driven approaches is called racist.

459
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 1: But you know, at the end of the day, I

460
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: don't think people want doctors who just worked hard. They

461
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: want doctors who have mastery of the subject matter. Now

462
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: we can put the whole doctor conversation aside, and as

463
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: far as how you know, many doctors kind of moved

464
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: through the COVID regime. But at the end of the day,

465
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: it has to be about results in business in every sector.

466
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: You know, if you're not providing adequate patient care, you

467
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: don't get to be a doctor. If you're not delivering

468
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: results in a business, you don't get to have that job.

469
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 1: But we're not allowed to say that anymore. But again,

470
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 1: these corporate leaders, they still at the end of the day,

471
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: care about making money and results. They're just sort of

472
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: wrapping it in these works dances now. And that's what

473
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: I take issue with, is the lie at the end

474
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: of the day. They still want to make money. The

475
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: board wants them to make money, the shareholders need them

476
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: to make money. That's their fiduciary responsibility. So let's be

477
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: honest about that. Let's be honest about how did you

478
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: you could do it and treat employees well. You know,

479
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: you don't have to have misogynistic work cultures, you don't

480
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: have to be unfair and the way you pay people,

481
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: But get back to basics. I just think we're going

482
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 1: to have to. I mean, it's not going to be

483
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: without effort from people like us. But at the end

484
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: of the day, we live in the real world and

485
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: boards and shareholders are not going to accept declining profitability

486
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: because companies aren't requiring employees to go to work and

487
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: all they do all days talk about their feelings when

488
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: they do well. I also think saying, like the people

489
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: that say a merit based society is racist, I think

490
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: that is actually a racist thing to say, because you're

491
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 1: saying that certain types of people cannot rise to meet

492
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: those merits and that's not the viewpoint I have. So

493
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: I think it's actually you know, demeaning and belittling to

494
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: and racist. Quite frankly, this equity point of view is

495
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: actually a racism in a nutshell. So you were an

496
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: elite gymnast. You also worked you're one of the producers

497
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: of Athlete, a documentary on the Larry Nasar scital at

498
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: the USA Nastics documentary one an Emmy, which is really cool.

499
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to just ask you before we go, you know,

500
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: what did you learn if you can kind of give

501
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: us a preview about what you learned from being a

502
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: producer on that documentary. Yeah, Well, I had an elite

503
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: genesis as a child, and I was the nineteen eighty

504
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 1: six national champion, and I wrote a book in two

505
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: thousand and eight about the abusive culture, which is and

506
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: I was sort of canceled in a smaller kind of

507
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: pterview for that because I said things that no one

508
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,479
Speaker 1: else had said yet about how abuse of the culture

509
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: was physically emotionally. And yes, there are sexual predators rampant

510
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: in the sport, and they were protected and we were sacrificed.

511
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: So you know, I am well acquainted with the ways

512
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: that adults can sacrifice the well being of children. Eventually,

513
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 1: when the Naster story broke, which was about ten years

514
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: after I wrote my book, I was redeemed and everyone

515
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: who dragged me and said I was a grifter and

516
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: a liar suddenly said they had always stood with me.

517
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: So in about twenty seventeen eighteen, I decided I thought

518
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: that it would be a great idea to make a

519
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: film that connected the crimes of Nasser to the broader

520
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: culture of abuse. He's not happening in isolation. He's happening

521
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: because this culture allowed for him to happen. Because this

522
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: culture allowed for the abuse of young children and beat

523
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: them down to the point that they would accept any

524
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: and all manner of abuse. That's why it happened. And

525
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: so I actually concept of the film, and I had

526
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: worked closely with the lawyer, the lawyer for most of

527
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 1: the Nasser survivors, so I knew a lot of the

528
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 1: young women. And I think the most important thing for

529
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 1: me it was again to not make it this like

530
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: salacious story about Nasser specifically, but to connect it to

531
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: that broader culture of abuse. And I think that's what

532
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: we were able to do successfully. And there is a

533
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: movement that has started around the world within gymnastics and

534
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: other Olympic sports where athletes are saying, no more, we

535
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: make the sport we decide we are not going to

536
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: accept this kind of mistreatment on behalf of code, you know,

537
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: from coaches and the governing bodies of the sports, and

538
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 1: so the athletes are rising up to demand better, which

539
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: I think is amazing. I'm super proud of that. In

540
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: terms of what the film was able to accomplish. You

541
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: had mentioned that people after the fact are like, oh, yeah,

542
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: I was there all along. We see that a lot

543
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: with COVID too, where it's like, you know, they're like, oh, yeah,

544
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: I was. You know, I'm against lockdowns. I was against

545
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't think the record states that, but whatever,

546
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: it's made interesting they'll say it when all the records

547
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: states opposite, Like there's video, there's tweets like, how do

548
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: they just lie like that? I don't understand it. I

549
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: don't know. Unfortunately, we're not gonna, you know, solve all

550
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: of the world's problems here. Well, Jennifer, I appreciate your voice.

551
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: I appreciate what you've done and just taking a stand.

552
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: And it seems like you had mentioned kind of being

553
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: on the front end of calling out what was happening

554
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: in gymnastics, and then also with there seems to be

555
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: a pattern with you so I respect it. We need

556
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: more of that and then today's society. So Jennifer, I

557
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: appreciate it, and everyone go check out author of Chalked

558
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: Up and then more recently Levi's Unbuttoned as well, which

559
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: is not a biography of your time at Levi's. So

560
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining the show. I really appreciate it.

561
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it,

562
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: and I appreciate your boys. That was Jennifer say, interesting conversation.

563
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: You know. I love people like her who speak out

564
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: and are unafraid. I really think the only way we

565
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: can turn this country around and escape from this clown

566
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: world we're living in is to just have more people

567
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: speak up and re brave like her. So I appreciate

568
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: her time. I appreciate you guys as always for listening

569
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,959
Speaker 1: to the show every Monday and Thursdays when we do

570
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: new episodes, but of course you can listen throughout the

571
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: week or whenever you want. I want to thank John Cassio,

572
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: my producer, for putting the show together. Feel free to

573
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: leave us a review, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts.

574
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: Until next time, Thanks so much,