1 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 1: Welcome to Between the Horns, presented by your Southern California 2 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: Too a dealer, proud partner of the La Rams. I 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: am J D Long, joined by my radio broadcast partner 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: de Marco Farr, who's done the school drop off. And 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: I think this morning cup of coffee absolutely I took 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: all her stuff down and put me up. See right there. 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: Since Kurt Warner has a movie, you know, I might 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: as well put one up in the background, you know, 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: the Undergo Underdog story. Now I know, it's BTh Thursday, 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: and it is game week. It's Monday night football against 11 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: the Arizona Cardinals, and so we bring in a special guest, 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: Kirk Morrison, who handles our pregame, halftime and postgame coverage 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: on our flagship radio station. And Kirk Man, those royal 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: and Soul colors look good on you. You're necessary, you 15 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: know what. It looks good on me, you know. And 16 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: it's okay to be able to have two teams that 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: you're root for, genuinely, Okay, fans are dying by the day. 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: Come on now, hey, that's just what it is. Man. 19 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: I grew up with Giants and an A's fan in 20 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: the Bay Area. What can else could I do? I 21 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: love it? Come on in, let's start with the NFC 22 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: playoff picture. Why don't we Arizona is a top They're 23 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: the one, Green Bay, Tampa Bay, Dallas in position to 24 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: win their divisions. Then the Rams as the five seeds, 25 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: So any hope of climbing to the top of the 26 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: NFC West requires a win in Glendale on Monday Night 27 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: football and DeMarco, let's start with a quick rehash of 28 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: that Jacksonville win. Do you understand the fan sentiment, Okay, 29 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: you beat a two win opponent, I want to wait 30 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: and see what it looks like against a two loss foe. 31 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: Oh that's fair. Absolutely. I thought Jacksonville was a great 32 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 1: sparring partner for the Rams getting ready for this game. 33 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: And that's funny, JB. That's exactly what I saw from 34 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: the sideline, especially from the defense. I think they had 35 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: what fifty five snaps and it was all out go 36 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: after Laurence stopped the run. It was a great day 37 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: defensively so, but what I did see it seemed like 38 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: guys were testing their conditioning, Like it wasn't about beating Jacksonville. 39 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: This was about Okay, this is an extended practice for 40 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: what we're gonna see on Monday night. So yeah, a 41 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: lot at steak. But if you just boil it down, man, 42 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: it's just ball. It's the Rams versus the Cardinals, and 43 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: I know the Rams are still sick about what the 44 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: Cardinals did to them the first time they saw it 45 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: was embarrassing. So this is your only chance for get 46 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: back to date. So I know there's a lot at steak, 47 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: but this is old school about one team versus the 48 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: next and one coach versus the other. Kirk humility is 49 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 1: only a week away in the National Football League, But 50 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: couldn't the same also be true if swagger right? Like, 51 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: I know it's the Jacksonville Jaguars, but still, that was 52 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: just what the doctor ordered for the Los Angeles Rams. 53 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: You know, jab honestly, I think you hit it right there, 54 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: because that was the one thing that I wanted to 55 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: see in the game against the Jaguars. It wasn't about 56 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,839 Speaker 1: the yards. It wasn't about could the offense get back 57 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: on track or could the defense you know, have a 58 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: solid game. To me, I felt like this Rams team 59 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: is they weren't having fun. It didn't look fun. And 60 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: think about it compared to like the early weeks of 61 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: the season, where you've got Sean McVay the head coach, 62 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: running all the way up to the tunnel to congratulate 63 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: it to Sean Jackson or a Cooper cup or a 64 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: Matthew Stafford. I hadn't seen that in a long long time. 65 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: So for me, it was really about, like you mentioned, 66 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: regaining that swagger, seeing OBJ with a little touchdown celebration right, 67 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: seeing that magic that we saw earlier in the season. 68 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: That to me was really about what I think the 69 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: Jaguars win was is getting back on track, having fun 70 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: and realizing we're still a darn good football team. We're 71 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: eight and four with everything still in front of us. 72 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: You know, the only time I'm want to watch Aaron 73 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: Rodgers play forty minutes of football is on TV, not 74 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: there when it's cold, So that ain't fun. I get that, right. 75 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: And did you know what that touchdown celebration was from OBJ? Yeah? 76 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: I do. You did immediately immediately, well immediately when I 77 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: saw it, I had to see it again, and I 78 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: was like, did he just revive himself? And so I 79 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: thought he got hurt. No, they're younger, and you're you're 80 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: more of a gamer than demarcoll and I are, and 81 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: apparently Sean McVeigh is, because he was not aware at 82 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: least first claims did you guys watched though the Rams 83 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: platforms had it, NFL films had it. Sean McVeigh miked 84 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: up in that game and saying, this feels like us, 85 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: like reacting to the moment. I think that expresses the 86 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: sentiment that we're all touching on, right, Like that feels 87 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: like who we are supposed to be, who we want 88 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: to be. But Kirk, I wonder, is this a new 89 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: identity that they've stumbled upon with jumbo set, six offensive linemen, 90 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: two sometimes three tight ends, Sony Michelle as a lead 91 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: back or was that just a one off game plan. No, 92 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: it better not be. And I think that when you 93 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: look at what the Rams have down the stretch, right, 94 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: I look at the three games against divisional opponent San 95 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: Francisco Seattle still upcoming. But I think one that quietly, JB. 96 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: I'm still thinking about it, and I shouldn't be. But 97 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: when you go against the Baltimore Ravens in Baltimore, you 98 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: better be able to do something different than come out 99 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: in eleven personnel. So I thought that that thirteen that 100 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: jumbo package. I call it thirteen T, one back, three 101 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,679 Speaker 1: tight ends, and one of the tight ends actually a tackle. 102 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: Why the T tag on the thirteen T. I loved it, 103 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: and it was like five yards to carry. But it 104 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: was also a mentality that I saw too, and finally 105 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: getting Joe no Boom involved in the game. You got 106 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: an outstanding swing tackle that's really been sitting on the 107 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: sideline for the most of the season. Why not get 108 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 1: him more active. I thought it gave great relief to 109 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: the tight ends, gave them more edges, gave them more 110 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: hats on hats, but it also gave me for the 111 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: first time we in like but the last two or 112 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: three weeks, we finally saw somebody wide open, like literally 113 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: off the play action, wide open throw, easy throw for 114 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: Matthew Stafford. Those are the layups that I thought this 115 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: offense had missed over the last couple of weeks. So 116 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: I think it really was predicated on getting into some 117 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: different personnel groupings and that jumbo set probably is something 118 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: that it won't be a one off. What do you 119 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: call it? Thirteen T thirteen T Yeah, one back, cre 120 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: tight ends and one and one tackle. You know what 121 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: I called it? Oh solutely, here it comes now. I mean, look, 122 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: going big, going physical. I think that was growth by 123 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: Sean mcvaya. Beyonds. Coaches are stubborn men and they think 124 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: their stuff works against just about anybody, even when it's 125 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: not working. That's how guys get fired. They stick to 126 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: what they do. But I thought that was growth, And 127 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right. Joseph Noteboom could have been 128 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: called fresh legs because the other five have been doing 129 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: all the work and I'm sitting there watching this big 130 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: dude on the bench not do anything but carry water. 131 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: Get your butt out there, replace one of those tight ends, 132 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: and move somebody and run the football. But Sony Michelle 133 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: going downhill, I think opens everything up for the offense. 134 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: Like you said, the only way to attract the defense 135 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: is really make them believe you can run the football 136 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: at him. Then you'll get safety starting to collapse. Linebackers 137 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: take a step into the line of scrimmage. That's when 138 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: you get guys wide open behind. So you know, as 139 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: long as Matthew Stafford continues to be accurate on play action, yeah, 140 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: and you're getting movement up front, you can get this 141 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: versus Arizona. Like you didn't get in the last three 142 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: or four weeks. How did cha they put it to 143 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: us Monday? Joan Opum, you can't tell us isn't one 144 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: of our best eleven players on offense, right, So shame 145 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 1: on us as a Rams coaching staff if we can't 146 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: find ways to get him involved in the game plan. 147 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: I'll be curious to see if they carry that forward 148 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: to Monday Night football and this stretch run Kirk looking 149 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 1: at it through a middle linebackers lens, the Rams become 150 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: a more difficult team to prepare for this week for 151 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: the Arizona Cardinals. What I mean by that is we 152 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: saw more personnel groupings in that one Sunday against the 153 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: Jaguars than we had in the eleven games prior combined. Yeah, 154 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: I think now you have to look at the entire 155 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: offense of what I think Sean McVay can present to 156 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: you on Monday Night. It's not just hey, they're gonna 157 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: come out in eleven personnel. It's honestly, how do you 158 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: want to defend? And look, they've got some athletic linebackers, right, 159 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: Isaiah Simmons and Collins and Jordan Eggs. When you think 160 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: about what they have in the back end as well, 161 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: obviously with no Buddha Baker and Byron Murphy, but it's 162 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: really about upfront. Can they have to bring in more 163 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: guys that have to stop the run and also too, 164 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: I think it's shortened up the game. I think our 165 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: best or the Rams, but their best defense is possibly 166 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: just keeping or the best offense, I should say, is 167 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,559 Speaker 1: keeping Kyler Murray in their offense off the field, keeping 168 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: them on the sideline. So what does that do? Shortened 169 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: up the game? I thought mcvaigh shortened up the game 170 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: by having these different personnel groupings and forcing the substitutions. 171 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: I mean it looked like a hockey line switch for 172 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: the Jaguars a couple of times out there JV last 173 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: week where the Rams bring in this big boy packs, 174 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, whoa there, heroes three? You know, substitutions for 175 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: the Jaguars. Will that now happen on Monday night? For 176 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: the Arizona Cardinals having to figure out which is the 177 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: personnel that they're gonna go with. I know Van's Joseph 178 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: probably didn't expect to have to do this much work 179 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: this week their defensive coordinator, but I think it does 180 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: present some problems. It presents some challenges for the Cardinals 181 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: defensively and also too, I think it also stretches out 182 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: the edge as well. For a Chandler Jones, Now instead 183 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: of rushing off just a regular tackle, he may have 184 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: a regular tight end, he's got to rush off another 185 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 1: tackle and impossibly a tight end. So I think it 186 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: also increases not only the run game or what you 187 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: can do in the run game, but also makes those 188 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: edges a little bit longer for those defensive ends. Defar, 189 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: did you catch that hour He's wearing an l a 190 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: hat and a rams Paolo, I'm right there. Come on, man, 191 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: you know, maybe I'm all in all let's just keep 192 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: drawing him in. But you know, Kirk, I think you're right, 193 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: And you know, I want to say something and I'm 194 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: not gonna say it because it's probably in the game plan. 195 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: But there's so much you can do so in so 196 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: many ways. You can catch a defense off balance with 197 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: that formation that thirteen with a tackle you have to 198 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: align to it properly number one, and you have to 199 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: know who's eligible number two and hit. So we'll see, 200 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: and um, I call Chandler Jones, agent Jones. You guys 201 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: have seen the matrix, right, Remember those agents that move 202 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: dodging bullets. That's how those guy rushes um. But it's funny. UM. 203 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: Ask me this question, and I'll ask you two. Who 204 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: would you rather have? Chandler Jones or Leonard Floyd? Now, 205 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: Chandler Jones has eight and a half sacks, five in 206 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: the first game and three and a half cents or 207 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: Leonard Floyd's production week after week after week after week. Man, 208 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: I think I take Floyd. And that's tough for me 209 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: to say because I like Chandler Jones. But yeah, I 210 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: get Joyd's already got his payday and he's still bringing it. 211 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. It's interesting, but they're tremendous. I 212 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 1: love their linebackers. But like you said, this will give 213 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: Vance Joseph something else to think about, and not only 214 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: him them. You're gonna have to soak all this stuff 215 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: in and know your responsibilities back to front or runs 216 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: could pop on you. All right, why don't we stay 217 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: with that edge group? Then you introduced Leonard Floyd, and 218 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: since the Rams have seen the Cardinals, they've added Von 219 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: Miller for all of his pass rushing, prow is playing 220 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 1: the run pretty well too, Kirk, what might it mean 221 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: to have him as the bracket opposite Floyd as you 222 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: prepare to face Kyler Murray. I think for the most part, man, 223 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: they really just got to start stopping the run. Note 224 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 1: this defensive front, because I think everyone's come in and 225 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: everybody's trying to wait for these big splash players from 226 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: von Miller, and so I think the first part is 227 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: really as much as we talk about Von Miller, I 228 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: think we have to talk about obviously a Sean Robinson 229 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: and what Greg Gaines have been able to do in 230 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: the interior. When the Rams are able to stop the 231 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: run and force Kyler Murray into some long down and distances, 232 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: that suits well for von Miller. Now he can go 233 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: chase where Kyler Murray is trying to extend to play 234 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: on the longer down and distances. If you give him 235 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: a third and three, third and four, you know he's 236 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: gonna get rid of football too quickly, in and out 237 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: for to DeAndre Hopkins or Christian Kirk or a J. Green. 238 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 1: But I think now when you do have a von 239 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: Miller allowing him to just say, hey, look just go 240 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: get Kyle Kyler Murray. But it's predicated again on stopping 241 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: the run. I think it's really going to come in 242 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: the coming weeks. I think Ads kind of said it 243 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: best this week. It's teams know what the Rams want 244 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: to do. They know that, Hey, they got the premier 245 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: pass rushers in Floyd and Donald and von Miller, so 246 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: we're going to get the ball out quickly, like we 247 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: saw from Aaron Rodgers, we saw it from Tannehill. You 248 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: got to force them into long down and distances. So 249 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: it's about more things stopping the run, which is what 250 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: von Miller has actually been doing. He may not have 251 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: the splash plays, but even stopping the run, they just 252 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: got to continue to win first and second down and 253 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: get Kyler Murray into some long down and distance school. 254 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: Where he gets in trouble is when he extends to plays. 255 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: I'm not disagreeing with you, Kirk, You're right, but I 256 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: will say third and long was a scary proposition when 257 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: Kyler Murray was at so by stating in week four two, 258 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: I mean I think get back to the third and 259 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: more than the chains, and those were killer plays that 260 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: he can burn. Hey, Jamie, I hate to bring up 261 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: old stuff, right, but next time you'll probably accept the 262 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: penalty right, instead of giving Kyler Murray then the chance 263 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: on third day. I mean, who knew hindsight? Right. I've 264 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: also got to Ernest Jones now ramped up as they're 265 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: starting inside linebacker, and that's different from the last time 266 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: they saw these Cardinals. Yeah, it's new luck. You know, 267 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: Kyler Murray is gonna be standing staring at a different 268 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: medal linebacker. And then you have to include Ernest Jones 269 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: was getting nothing but better run, pass and blitz. So 270 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: he's becoming that all around linebacker that you thought he 271 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: could be when he was drafted. The first time you 272 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: saw him in pad You're like, oh, this is new football, 273 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: new linebacking. He's becoming a playmaker, knocking on the door 274 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: of special So absolutely. But you know, same with Chicago 275 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: last week. And I agree with Kirk when he said 276 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: the best defense against Kyler Murray is keeping him off 277 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: the field. I thought Chicago had a pretty good game plan. 278 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: They did. They drove the ball along, they scored touchdowns 279 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: behind it. The only problem was Dalton turned the ball over. 280 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: So don't turn the ball over. If you, Matthew Stafford, 281 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: if you have to punt, so be it, and then 282 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: let your defense do work. But funny you said, Greg Gaines. 283 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: Greg Gaines, the last two weeks eleven tackles, one sack 284 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: and three quarterback hits. Now quickly ask me what Aaron 285 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: Donald's numbers are from the same two weeks. Eleven tackles 286 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: and three quarterback hits. So I mean, yeah, you've got 287 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: a guy a nose tackle going to get it. That's 288 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: also different from the last time you saw Kyler Murray. 289 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: So if you want to look back at that film, 290 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: if you're Kyler Murray, if you want to look back 291 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: at that film and say, I think I can get 292 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: the same stuff I got on him before, I think 293 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: you're going to be mistaken. Von Miller is a patient hunter. 294 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: I think he's gaining data just like anybody. This is 295 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: new for him. He's also a rushing from the right, 296 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: he'd rather rush from the left, so it's new. But 297 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: he's starting to pick his shots. I think maybe Monday 298 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: night you'll you might see the best of him if 299 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: you start stopping the run and forcing them to throw. 300 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: But I don't think it'll look like the first time 301 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: they saw the Arizona Cardinals. You know, AJ Green was 302 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: a problem too. I think there was a specific target 303 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: in the ramp secondary that Kyler was going after. That 304 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: also has evolved, and that might look a little bit 305 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: different in this rematch with the Cardinals. I'll say I'm 306 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: here in ten PM in the Valley of the Sun 307 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: right now, Kirk. This fan base is going berserk for 308 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: their Cardinals. They're rating for that win over the Bears 309 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: was huge. They are believing. Do you see the Arizona 310 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: Cardinals with seven road wins all by double digits as 311 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: now the NFC favorite, And would the Rams winning Monday 312 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: Night do anything to change that in your eyes? You know, honestly, Jabe, 313 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: if you would have asked me this question maybe two 314 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: or three weeks ago, I would probably say probably say no. 315 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: When Kyler Murray was healthy, then he went out for 316 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: that stretch of games and they continue to still win. 317 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: And I thought, I went back to last year and 318 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: I thought that when Kyler Murray got injured at the end, 319 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: we saw what happened to the Cardinals. I would never 320 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: say that a guy being injured is a good thing, 321 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: but I think that may have been a good thing 322 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: for the Arizona Cardinals that he was injured. They were 323 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: able to maintain that success and now they're going into 324 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: the stretch run with a quarterback with fresh legs, right. 325 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: We saw it last week versus Chicago. So I think 326 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: that's where my belief is that they'll be the number 327 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: one seed in the NFC. Possibly possibly. I still look 328 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: at what green Bay is able to do, and green 329 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: Bay does have that head to head matchup win over them, 330 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: So I would lean right now towards I think green 331 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: Bay towards in green Bay only because I think when 332 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: you look at the NFC West, the Cardinal still got 333 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: some big matchups. I think San Francisco can still give 334 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: them some problems. Obviously Seattle, and we know the Rams 335 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: having there one more opportunity as well. So I believe 336 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: that it would be the green Bay Packers more so 337 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: than my belief that the Arizona Cardinals can go out 338 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: and get it done. Packers still have the head to 339 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: head over them, although if AJ Green got his head 340 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: turned around, that may not be in the cage. Right, 341 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: I see what you did there. Yeah, let's finish with 342 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: a thought on the quarterbacks. DeMarco. I'm sure this will 343 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: come up if it hasn't already over the weekend and 344 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: on Monday, Matthew Stafford against winning opponents. Right, we started with, okay, 345 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: you beat the Jags, can you get the one seed 346 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: in the NFC. He has this reputation, fair or foul 347 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: that he's, you know, able to put up stats against 348 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: the middle of the road teams. And the Rams have 349 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: done well to beat the teams that they quote unquote 350 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: should beat. Now can they level up? And I'm speaking 351 00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: specifically about the quarterback leading this team? Oh? Absolutely, I 352 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: really appreciate Matthew Stafford. I mean, I guess the fan 353 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: way to say that is I love Matthew Stafford. I 354 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: love watching him play. The guy's tough, he's got everything 355 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: you want. He's got a cannon for an arm, and 356 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: he's also a great quarterback meeting He'll take the heat 357 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: and he won't take too much of the credit, kind 358 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: of like Sean McVay. So when you go back and 359 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: look at those three losses Tennessee, San Francisco and then 360 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: Green Bay, Okay, he threw picks, pick sixes, But what 361 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: we're not talking about is the offensive line absolutely getting 362 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: run over, you know what I mean. So there's a 363 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: reason that Matthew Stafford has been a little off. You 364 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: kind of fixed that versus Jacksonville. I think he only 365 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: gave up one sack. So the old line block for 366 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: one hundred yard rusher, Yeah, one hundred yard receiver and 367 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: a quarterback with a passer rating of almost one hundred 368 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: and eighteen. That's a great day up front. So I 369 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: think if that old line continues to play like they 370 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: played versus Jacksonville, if they put a couple of games together, 371 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: you'll see the best out of Matthew Stafford. If you 372 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: keep running the football to protect Matthew Stafford with Sony, 373 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: ll give them something else to think about other than 374 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: teeing off on him. I think you'll see a better 375 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: Matthew Stafford. So, and if Sean McVay calls to that 376 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: and plays to that strength, I think you'll see a 377 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: better Matthew Stafford. Even he admits he could be better there. 378 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think what Matthew Stafford definitely has to 379 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: do is match what Kyler Murray's doing. If he scores, 380 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: you have to score. Yeah, if he turns it over, 381 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: you have to capitalize. You have to play that game. 382 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: You have to be a field general more so than 383 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: Kyler Murray. So you have to win there and then 384 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: the offensive line has to give him a chance to win, 385 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: and then I think this defense will get Kyler Murray 386 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: out more than they did the first time. Yeah, Kirk, 387 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: even at the end of that game where they are 388 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: run heavy downhill first with Sonny Michelle Stafford still gets 389 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: three hundred yards and three touchdowns with three different receivers. Yeah. 390 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: I mean, you just gotta love the mindset though. It 391 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: is something that we didn't know that Sean McVay could 392 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: be stubborn and be stubborn and running the football. The 393 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: number I threw out before the game was twenty five 394 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: carries an end of twenty six, twenty seven carries in 395 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: the game. I think that has to be the number 396 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: going into this game against the Cardinals. Again, you're going 397 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: on the road, So what do you gotta pack. You 398 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: gotta pack your run game, you gotta pack your defense, 399 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: but more importantly packed those special teams as well. The 400 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: special teams actually got going as well. I think that's 401 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: another unit that we have to look at because we 402 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: always knew for the Rams the offense would be you know, 403 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: we would see where they gonna be good today where 404 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: they're gonna be bad, never just awful, but man, the 405 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: Rams would always pack that special teams unit. They haven't 406 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: packed it enough this year, and I think hopefully Monday 407 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: Night they can pack that team and give them some 408 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: some some good field position, give them some drives in 409 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: you know, maybe opponent's territory or around the fifty yard line. 410 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: That's what I think it gonna be huge. And also 411 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: it can get you into now taking some shots and 412 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: not having to worry about throwing the football so much 413 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: early on, be able to run the football. I'm old 414 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: enough to remember when Matthew Stafford couldn't win in primetime 415 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: and I got the Betters on Sunday Night Football. They 416 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: got the Seahawks on Thursday. Maybe he can get the 417 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 1: Cardinals Monday Night Football to complete the tri effect. Travis 418 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: and Kirk will have the pregame coverage for you right 419 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: on Monday night and Jack FM ninety three point one 420 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles to Marco far Maurice Jones, Drew and 421 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: I will be in Glendale for the game. Let me 422 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,719 Speaker 1: see that Blue time, thank you hold up that, let 423 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: me see that. There you go, Blue, There we go, 424 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: oh man, one more time, our Los Angeles Rams for 425 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: k Los Angeles Rams. I have to raise my kids 426 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: as Rams fans. You know that right there we go, 427 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: Living in Los Angeles. I raise them as Rams fans 428 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: so they don't get bullied at school. You know, here 429 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: we go. Our thanks for tuning in to this week's 430 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: between the Horns as always presented by your Southern California toy, 431 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: The Dealers, proud partner of the La Rams. Thanks to 432 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: to Marco far and to Kirk. We're looking forward to 433 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: bringing Maurice Jones Drew back into the fold next week. 434 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: As always, if you would like to join us inside 435 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: Sofi Stadium to experience the Rams House, you only have 436 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: two Ragular season games left, their divisional matchups against the 437 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: Seahawks and the forty nine Ers. Your tickets can be 438 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: found at Sofi Stadium by going to the Rams dot 439 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: com slash tickets the Rams dot Com splash tickets. I'm JB. Long. 440 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: Have the great rest of your Thursday. Looking forward to 441 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: Monday night football, a Division contest in Arizona against the 442 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: Cardinals