WEBVTT - Why We Avoid Conversations That Would Make Us Happier 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:29.916 --> 0:00:32.396 I study mind reading for a living I study how 0:00:32.396 --> 0:00:37.116 we make inferences about each other's thoughts, beliefs, attitudes, and 0:00:37.276 --> 0:00:39.916 mostly what I'm interested in is how we screw that 0:00:39.996 --> 0:00:41.956 up and misunderstand each other so often. 0:00:42.756 --> 0:00:45.916 Nick Epley is a professor of social psychology at the 0:00:45.996 --> 0:00:49.916 University of Chicago. His research shows that we often avoid 0:00:49.916 --> 0:00:53.756 connecting with other people because we mistakenly believe they don't 0:00:53.796 --> 0:00:55.396 want to engage with us. 0:00:55.876 --> 0:01:01.396 I remember thinking, man, if that's something we're all doing, 0:01:01.956 --> 0:01:05.836 If I'm consistently underestimating you know how things will go 0:01:05.876 --> 0:01:07.956 if I reach out to engage with somebody, I could 0:01:07.956 --> 0:01:11.356 have lots of moments that are and realizing this would 0:01:11.396 --> 0:01:12.396 be life changing. 0:01:16.316 --> 0:01:19.716 On today's show, why the happiness we're after maybe hiding 0:01:19.716 --> 0:01:25.676 in the conversations we avoid. I'm Maya Schunker, a scientist 0:01:25.756 --> 0:01:28.916 who studies human behavior, and this is a slight change 0:01:28.916 --> 0:01:31.796 of plans, a show about who we are and who 0:01:31.836 --> 0:01:42.676 we become in the face of a big change. Cocktail 0:01:42.716 --> 0:01:45.996 parties give me the he begbis. The thought of standing 0:01:45.996 --> 0:01:49.036 in a room with a bunch of strangers is anxiety producing. 0:01:49.676 --> 0:01:52.876 Maybe it's because small talk kind of sucks, or because 0:01:52.876 --> 0:01:56.516 I'm worried I'll intrude on someone else's great conversation, or 0:01:56.516 --> 0:01:58.676 because I'm just not sure what I'll have to say. 0:01:59.276 --> 0:02:02.836 Nick says we often avoid conversations and social settings because 0:02:02.836 --> 0:02:06.196 we're worried they'll go badly, but the research shows they 0:02:06.276 --> 0:02:10.116 actually go way better than we predict. Means we're missing 0:02:10.116 --> 0:02:13.636 out on a lot of really positive connections, whether it's 0:02:13.636 --> 0:02:15.916 in an elevator or in line at a coffee shop, 0:02:16.396 --> 0:02:20.636 and those connections can enrich our lives. Nick found inspiration 0:02:20.836 --> 0:02:23.036 for this research on his way to work one morning. 0:02:23.636 --> 0:02:25.956 This particular morning, I was writing a chapter from my 0:02:26.036 --> 0:02:29.876 first book where I was describing how we're uniquely social 0:02:29.916 --> 0:02:32.556 agents with brains that are equipped for connecting with the 0:02:32.596 --> 0:02:34.996 minds of others, made happier and healthier by connecting with 0:02:35.036 --> 0:02:37.676 other people. And I had sort of this Eureka moment 0:02:37.796 --> 0:02:41.196 where I looked around the train and I kind of 0:02:41.276 --> 0:02:44.916 noticed with fresh eyes that we were all sitting there 0:02:45.116 --> 0:02:48.916 hip to hip, not saying an absolute word to each other. 0:02:48.916 --> 0:02:50.476 You could have heard a pin drop. I mean, all 0:02:51.036 --> 0:02:54.756 highly social animals happier and healthier connecting with other people. 0:02:54.796 --> 0:02:57.596 And then there we all were ignoring each other, and 0:02:57.636 --> 0:03:01.996 that just seemed weird. It struck me as bizarre. And 0:03:02.036 --> 0:03:04.156 you know, again, it's not like I hadn't noticed this 0:03:04.156 --> 0:03:06.316 thing before, but I noticed it with like a scientist 0:03:06.476 --> 0:03:09.076 lens that morning, and it seemed like a weird paradox. 0:03:09.436 --> 0:03:12.476 So that morning, a woman had sat down next to me. 0:03:12.516 --> 0:03:15.436 She was I would have guessed fifty ish years old. 0:03:15.476 --> 0:03:17.356 I was probably about thirty five at the time. She 0:03:17.396 --> 0:03:19.596 was dressed for work very professionally, and she had just 0:03:19.636 --> 0:03:23.796 this killer red hat. And I decided I was going 0:03:23.876 --> 0:03:25.676 to try to I was just going to do something 0:03:25.716 --> 0:03:27.916 different this morning and just see how it went. So 0:03:29.076 --> 0:03:31.916 I kind of got up some courage because nobody was speaking, 0:03:32.316 --> 0:03:35.036 and I turned to her and I started with high 0:03:35.396 --> 0:03:38.876 I'm Nick and then I said I love your hat. 0:03:39.156 --> 0:03:42.116 I have one just like it, which is not a 0:03:42.396 --> 0:03:44.516 is not a killer opening line, like it is not 0:03:44.916 --> 0:03:48.116 it is not you know, Hall of Fame material. But 0:03:48.876 --> 0:03:51.956 she she kind of lit up, like you know, you 0:03:52.036 --> 0:03:55.156 had I paid attention to somebody, she had been seen 0:03:55.236 --> 0:03:57.476 and somebody had taken interest in her. She just turned 0:03:57.516 --> 0:03:59.436 to me with a big smile and we kind of 0:03:59.516 --> 0:04:02.276 laughed with each other, and then things just kind of 0:04:02.276 --> 0:04:05.556 started flowing in the conversation. It was it was quite easy. 0:04:05.596 --> 0:04:07.276 I kind of imagined I wouldn't have a whole lot 0:04:07.316 --> 0:04:10.196 in common with her, but then once we started talking, 0:04:10.276 --> 0:04:12.116 we found all kinds of things we had in common. 0:04:12.236 --> 0:04:14.996 And you know, it was not this's not an earth 0:04:15.076 --> 0:04:18.916 shattering conversation. But I remember very distinctly when I when 0:04:18.916 --> 0:04:21.196 I got up to leave, she stopped me and she said, 0:04:22.116 --> 0:04:23.796 thank you so much for taking the time to talk 0:04:23.836 --> 0:04:26.676 with me, And there was a level of sincerity. She 0:04:26.796 --> 0:04:28.836 like had her hand on my wrist as I was leaving, 0:04:29.116 --> 0:04:33.276 and I remember feeling not just that that was good, 0:04:33.956 --> 0:04:37.116 it was surprisingly good. And there was a gap between 0:04:37.156 --> 0:04:40.516 the way I had imagined that conversation would go and 0:04:40.556 --> 0:04:45.036 how that conversation actually went. And I remember very distinctly 0:04:45.076 --> 0:04:50.076 getting off the train and thinking, Man, if that's something 0:04:50.116 --> 0:04:54.956 we're all doing, if I'm consistently underestimating, you know, how 0:04:54.996 --> 0:04:57.196 things will go. If I reach out to engage with somebody, 0:04:57.236 --> 0:04:59.516 I could have lots of moments that are better. And 0:04:59.876 --> 0:05:03.756 realizing this would would like be life changing. You know, 0:05:03.836 --> 0:05:08.116 as researchers, that's an anecdote, whatever it means nothing, it's 0:05:08.156 --> 0:05:11.956 an anecdote. One day point, but it got me thinking 0:05:12.516 --> 0:05:13.956 we could do an experiment on this. 0:05:14.356 --> 0:05:18.436 Okay, So to summarize, you left that interaction with a 0:05:18.476 --> 0:05:24.836 woman thinking, relative to my expectations, this conversation went so 0:05:24.956 --> 0:05:25.476 much better. 0:05:25.676 --> 0:05:26.476 Yeah. 0:05:26.556 --> 0:05:29.396 Then you had a secondary thought on the wisdom piece, 0:05:29.436 --> 0:05:33.276 which is, well, we could all recognize that there's this 0:05:33.356 --> 0:05:36.596 disparity between how we think these conversations will unfold and 0:05:36.596 --> 0:05:39.116 how they actually do unfold. We would all be better 0:05:39.156 --> 0:05:41.716 off given that we are inherently social creatures. 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:42.156 Yeah. 0:05:42.796 --> 0:05:47.836 Tell me about the experiment that you did run and 0:05:48.076 --> 0:05:50.196 what you were hoping to validate from that. 0:05:51.036 --> 0:05:53.996 Yeah. So, my collaborator, Juliana Schroeder and I she was 0:05:54.036 --> 0:05:56.516 a PhD student at the time, we went out into 0:05:56.516 --> 0:05:58.076 the field the test that's just on the trains. We 0:05:58.156 --> 0:05:59.876 just went right back to the train that I ride 0:06:00.196 --> 0:06:04.836 every day, and our first experiment, we recruited people and 0:06:05.036 --> 0:06:07.636 we randomly assigned them to try one of three things 0:06:07.676 --> 0:06:10.756 on the train that morning. We asked them to either 0:06:11.356 --> 0:06:15.316 keep to themselves in solitude, just focus on their dayhead, 0:06:15.396 --> 0:06:18.916 don't engage anybody in conversation. In the control condition, which 0:06:18.956 --> 0:06:20.996 is just do whatever you normally do. They could talk, 0:06:21.076 --> 0:06:24.796 but overwhelmingly they do not. And then in the third condition, 0:06:25.356 --> 0:06:28.276 we asked people to try to have a conversation with 0:06:28.316 --> 0:06:29.996 a person who sits down next to them, try to 0:06:30.036 --> 0:06:32.996 connect with them, and we gave them a five dollars 0:06:33.036 --> 0:06:36.436 Starbucks gift card, which is the biggest incentive that you 0:06:36.436 --> 0:06:38.636 can possibly give somebody in the morning. They'll do anything 0:06:38.676 --> 0:06:41.316 for coffee in the morning. And then we gave them 0:06:41.356 --> 0:06:43.796 an envelope with the survey inside it. They opened it 0:06:43.876 --> 0:06:45.356 up at the end of their commute and they told 0:06:45.396 --> 0:06:47.956 us how their commute went, how pleasant it was compared 0:06:47.996 --> 0:06:50.316 to no more, how happy they felt, how sad they felt, 0:06:50.516 --> 0:06:53.356 and also how productive they were on the commute that morning. 0:06:53.876 --> 0:06:58.396 And what we found was that people actually reported having 0:06:58.476 --> 0:07:02.636 a better commute in the connection condition than they did 0:07:02.956 --> 0:07:06.156 in the solitude condition, and the control was in the middle, 0:07:06.276 --> 0:07:09.356 and so people actually had the best commute when they 0:07:09.356 --> 0:07:13.196 were being social and having a conversation with somebody. And 0:07:13.236 --> 0:07:17.596 that's kind of puzzling because nobody doesn't, yeah, right. And 0:07:17.836 --> 0:07:20.756 so to test the other part of this potential equation, 0:07:21.236 --> 0:07:24.516 we recruited another sample of commuters from the Homewo train station, 0:07:24.556 --> 0:07:26.996 and instead of actually having them do these things. We 0:07:27.116 --> 0:07:29.356 had them predict how they would feel if they did 0:07:29.436 --> 0:07:34.116 these things, and there people's expectations were precisely the opposite 0:07:34.236 --> 0:07:37.196 of what the actual experiences that we observed were. So 0:07:37.276 --> 0:07:40.996 they believed, they predicted they would have the most pleasant 0:07:41.036 --> 0:07:43.716 commute if they just kept to themselves in solitude or 0:07:43.756 --> 0:07:46.076 did whatever they normally did, and would had the least 0:07:46.396 --> 0:07:50.116 pleasant commute if they connected with a stranger. And so 0:07:50.716 --> 0:07:54.156 you can kind of now make sense of a behavior 0:07:54.236 --> 0:07:58.356 on the train. Highly social creatures made happier and healthier 0:07:58.356 --> 0:08:02.076 by connecting to each other. Won't do it, will choose 0:08:02.116 --> 0:08:04.356 not to talk if they think it's going to be terrible. 0:08:04.636 --> 0:08:07.596 So people were following their expectations. It's just their expectations 0:08:07.596 --> 0:08:08.116 were wrong. 0:08:08.436 --> 0:08:12.436 Yeah, My favorite findings in social psychology are, of course, 0:08:12.476 --> 0:08:15.676 those where they reveal that we mispredict things right. We 0:08:15.756 --> 0:08:17.836 think an experience is going to be a certain way, 0:08:17.876 --> 0:08:20.356 and turns out we tend to get it wrong. In 0:08:20.396 --> 0:08:23.756 your books, you write about several of the reasons why 0:08:23.836 --> 0:08:26.516 we don't always act in our social best interests. So 0:08:27.276 --> 0:08:31.956 to lay the groundwork here, it is highly evolutionarily advantageous 0:08:31.996 --> 0:08:35.036 for us to engage socially with others. In many ways, 0:08:35.036 --> 0:08:38.676 our survival is a species required that we be very 0:08:38.716 --> 0:08:42.156 socially attuned to other people and their needs and our 0:08:42.156 --> 0:08:45.636 membership in those groups. When we don't know how someone 0:08:45.676 --> 0:08:48.756 will react, we tend to fill in that gap, that 0:08:48.836 --> 0:08:53.916 lack of knowledge with a range of pessimistic possibilities that 0:08:53.996 --> 0:08:56.276 are more pessimistic than what is likely to happen. 0:08:57.036 --> 0:09:00.916 That's correct, And what that really highlights is overlooking a 0:09:00.996 --> 0:09:06.236 critical feature in social interaction, and that is reciprocity and responsiveness. 0:09:06.836 --> 0:09:10.236 If I smile at you, maya gonna likely smile back 0:09:10.236 --> 0:09:11.956 at me. I say hi to you, you say hi 0:09:12.076 --> 0:09:17.196 back to me. But people's expectations don't really seem to 0:09:17.436 --> 0:09:21.196 appreciate the power of that reciprocity, So they imagine that like, 0:09:21.316 --> 0:09:24.156 anything is possible, right I could I could try to 0:09:24.156 --> 0:09:26.756 have this conversation with you, and you could you know, 0:09:26.876 --> 0:09:29.116 punch me in the face, or you know, throw me 0:09:29.156 --> 0:09:32.636 off the train. What they imagine this crazy very wide 0:09:32.716 --> 0:09:36.476 range anything is possible. But in a world where social 0:09:36.516 --> 0:09:40.316 interaction is reciprocal, the actual outcomes are constrained. 0:09:40.436 --> 0:09:42.316 It's not as uncertain as we think. 0:09:42.876 --> 0:09:45.916 No, no, it's not. In fact, mostly it turns out, 0:09:46.036 --> 0:09:48.556 when you reach out to another person in a positive way, 0:09:48.876 --> 0:09:51.756 it just dramatically increases the odds that they'll reach back 0:09:51.756 --> 0:09:54.276 to you in a positive way too. There's just there's 0:09:54.356 --> 0:09:58.316 much less range than people imagine because we don't appreciate 0:09:58.356 --> 0:10:01.596 the power of reciprocity to constrain the range of outcomes. 0:10:01.716 --> 0:10:08.836 Yeah, another barrier you articulate concerns mismatched perspectives. So you 0:10:08.876 --> 0:10:11.876 say people tend to evaluate themselves based on a different 0:10:11.956 --> 0:10:15.916 and often harsher standard than we might judge others. Talking 0:10:15.956 --> 0:10:19.316 about how that comes into play here, I've. 0:10:19.156 --> 0:10:22.356 Been interested in these mismatched perspectives for my entire career. 0:10:22.596 --> 0:10:25.476 It's right at the center of social cognition. How thinking 0:10:25.516 --> 0:10:28.956 people think about other thinking people is you got two minds, right, 0:10:29.316 --> 0:10:32.636 two minds with eyes and experiences and perspectives that can differ, 0:10:32.916 --> 0:10:36.196 And we don't always appreciate when our own perspective is unique. 0:10:36.796 --> 0:10:40.636 We tend to evaluate ourselves in terms of our competency. 0:10:41.436 --> 0:10:43.956 How capable are we? How effective are we? You sit 0:10:44.036 --> 0:10:47.076 down to a conversation, you think, what on earth am 0:10:47.076 --> 0:10:49.756 I going to say? Can I right? Can I can 0:10:49.836 --> 0:10:51.556 I do this? What do we have in common to 0:10:51.636 --> 0:10:55.556 talk about anything I don't know, So we're focused on 0:10:55.556 --> 0:11:00.236 our competency. Other people, though, tend to be focused more 0:11:00.316 --> 0:11:03.596 on our warmth. Are you friendly? Are you kind? Are 0:11:03.636 --> 0:11:06.996 you trustworthy? Are you someone I can approach you know 0:11:07.036 --> 0:11:09.396 and be around? Or are you a scary person I 0:11:09.396 --> 0:11:11.756 should try to avoid? Yeah, And that's the thing other 0:11:11.796 --> 0:11:15.036 people first and foremost care about us is are we 0:11:15.596 --> 0:11:19.156 decent people? But if I'm focused on my competency, I'm 0:11:19.196 --> 0:11:21.476 going to be able to carry on this conversation. I'm 0:11:21.516 --> 0:11:24.716 just likely to be judging myself more harshly, evaluating this 0:11:24.756 --> 0:11:28.476 interaction from a more pessimistic standard than is warranted, because 0:11:28.476 --> 0:11:30.916 you're just viewing it through through a different lens than 0:11:30.956 --> 0:11:31.236 I am. 0:11:32.116 --> 0:11:34.636 We had Vanessa Bonds on the show. We talked about 0:11:34.676 --> 0:11:37.516 the likability gap, which refers to the idea that we 0:11:38.036 --> 0:11:41.316 routinely underestimate how likable we are in the eyes of others. 0:11:41.716 --> 0:11:44.396 And do you think this is partly responsible for that 0:11:44.436 --> 0:11:48.676 likability gap, that we're judging ourselves along the competency dimension 0:11:48.876 --> 0:11:50.116 versus the warmth one. 0:11:50.596 --> 0:11:52.756 I think very much it could be. This has not 0:11:52.796 --> 0:11:54.836 been tested directly, but it would not surprise me that 0:11:54.876 --> 0:11:58.436 where they find. This liking gap is typically after an interaction. 0:11:58.516 --> 0:12:00.516 I just think you like me less afterwards than you 0:12:00.516 --> 0:12:03.116 actually do. You look back over the conversation, you. 0:12:03.076 --> 0:12:06.316 Think, oh, dang, I got this said that awkward? 0:12:06.916 --> 0:12:09.556 Yeah, but would I say that in such an insecure way? 0:12:09.636 --> 0:12:11.156 Yeah, right, you're right, Like. 0:12:11.396 --> 0:12:13.556 I don't actually have the same red hat. Does you 0:12:13.596 --> 0:12:14.396 know it was a joke? 0:12:15.116 --> 0:12:17.916 That's right, that's right. Yeah. I mean every talk I've 0:12:17.916 --> 0:12:20.076 ever given, I go. But if I actually look at it, 0:12:20.076 --> 0:12:22.756 it's painful to do that. Right, You just think, oh 0:12:22.796 --> 0:12:24.796 my gosh, that is the worst. Look at all these 0:12:24.836 --> 0:12:29.356 lines I got wrong. Other people just don't care as much. 0:12:29.436 --> 0:12:31.996 Yeah, yeah, just don't care as much, right, Yeah, I mean, 0:12:32.036 --> 0:12:37.596 I totally tracks of my experience. I almost exclusively evaluate 0:12:37.636 --> 0:12:39.876 people based on warmth when I'm out in the world. Like, 0:12:39.916 --> 0:12:44.636 I don't think I've ever thought this person lacks conversational competency. 0:12:45.076 --> 0:12:48.436 Therefore I'm going to be rude to them or ignore that. 0:12:48.556 --> 0:12:53.116 I mean, that just feels preposterous. But I'm extremely moved 0:12:53.236 --> 0:12:55.436 by signals of warmth. Right if there's a big smile 0:12:55.476 --> 0:12:57.716 on their face, if you know they greet you with 0:12:57.836 --> 0:12:59.996 tenderness or kindness that goes such a long way. 0:13:00.396 --> 0:13:02.716 Yeah, sometimes I struggle with this a little bit, Like 0:13:02.716 --> 0:13:05.116 I sometimes I want a little more competency judgment. Like 0:13:05.116 --> 0:13:09.956 when I ask my kids, how are your teachers? Inevitably 0:13:09.996 --> 0:13:12.036 they tell me if they're nice or not. They don't 0:13:12.076 --> 0:13:14.276 tell me, well, you know, do they get the algebra right? 0:13:14.476 --> 0:13:14.676 Right? 0:13:14.756 --> 0:13:15.036 Yes? 0:13:15.116 --> 0:13:17.636 You know what's interesting is, even if we do think 0:13:17.676 --> 0:13:21.876 that people are indexing on our competency right, we should 0:13:21.956 --> 0:13:25.076 remind ourselves that, let's say we're not the perfect conversationalist. 0:13:25.156 --> 0:13:26.316 Let's say we get a joke wrong. 0:13:26.636 --> 0:13:30.916 If people can read our good intent, they will adjust 0:13:31.036 --> 0:13:33.076 and adapt and often jumped in. 0:13:33.036 --> 0:13:33.716 To rescue you. 0:13:34.036 --> 0:13:35.876 I was just this weekend at my sister's wedding, So 0:13:35.916 --> 0:13:39.236 I'm meeting the groom side of the family, and you 0:13:39.356 --> 0:13:41.596 just get so tired at a certain point of meeting 0:13:41.636 --> 0:13:43.556 new people, and so I was losing my bearings and 0:13:43.596 --> 0:13:47.916 I just had this incredibly awkward exchange in the elevator 0:13:47.996 --> 0:13:52.076 with Chris, my brother in law's aunt, right, because she's like, yeah, 0:13:52.116 --> 0:13:53.996 I'm part of that side of the family, and for 0:13:54.036 --> 0:13:57.396 some reason, Nick, I just like I couldn't remember what 0:13:57.436 --> 0:14:00.236 she was. I was like that side, mother's side, father. 0:14:00.276 --> 0:14:02.316 So I just start I just start shooting darts in 0:14:02.396 --> 0:14:04.036 the dark. I was like, I don't know what she 0:14:04.156 --> 0:14:07.236 means extended side of the family, my side of the family. 0:14:07.476 --> 0:14:11.636 So I'm like gassing error. And then she jumps in, right, 0:14:11.676 --> 0:14:14.196 She's rescuing me. She's like and by that I meant 0:14:14.516 --> 0:14:19.516 Maya who is currently cognitively impaired from being socially over stimulated. 0:14:20.356 --> 0:14:23.396 I meant his mother's side of the family. And so 0:14:23.556 --> 0:14:26.396 it was just a nice reminder people will help you 0:14:26.436 --> 0:14:28.996 out a little bit when you're sinking. 0:14:29.076 --> 0:14:33.116 Yes, When I was in graduate school, this was years 0:14:33.116 --> 0:14:35.356 ago at Cornell, one of the projects we worked on 0:14:36.036 --> 0:14:39.476 found that people fail to appreciate how much others can 0:14:39.516 --> 0:14:42.756 empathize with him when they do something somewhat embarrassing or 0:14:42.756 --> 0:14:45.196 they struggle. And this is very much what you're talking about. 0:14:45.196 --> 0:14:47.676 People thought they were being judged more harshly when they 0:14:47.676 --> 0:14:50.636 did something embarrassing when they actually were because other people 0:14:50.636 --> 0:14:52.996 could recognize what it was like to be in that 0:14:53.036 --> 0:14:55.676 state and cut you some slack as a result. 0:14:55.876 --> 0:14:59.596 And isn't there even additional research showing that showing a 0:14:59.596 --> 0:15:01.996 bit of that vulnerability is an excellent way to build 0:15:02.036 --> 0:15:05.236 trust and break down barriers and actually facilitated deeper connection. 0:15:05.476 --> 0:15:08.276 Like when I flugved and said something really silly or 0:15:08.356 --> 0:15:11.196 embarrassing or kind of put my foot in my mouth. 0:15:11.556 --> 0:15:13.796 I don't know, it breaks the ice and at least 0:15:13.916 --> 0:15:18.796 has led historically to a slightly more meaningful conversation because 0:15:18.796 --> 0:15:21.316 it's like, all right, well, we got to break through 0:15:21.316 --> 0:15:25.076 the pleasantries now because I've already screwed up. Yeah, I've 0:15:25.076 --> 0:15:27.236 already screwed up the dynamic and all the you know, 0:15:27.636 --> 0:15:29.356 the formalities of this conversation. 0:15:30.116 --> 0:15:32.396 I think that's one big thing that happens when we 0:15:32.436 --> 0:15:36.036 ask people to have deep and meaningful conversations with somebody 0:15:36.036 --> 0:15:38.836 else is that they they do open themselves up. They 0:15:38.836 --> 0:15:42.476 make themselves vulnerable in the sense that they're revealing something 0:15:42.516 --> 0:15:45.436 meaningful about themselves to somebody else and in so doing 0:15:45.516 --> 0:15:48.396 or trusting the other person. And when you signal that 0:15:48.436 --> 0:15:52.556 you trust somebody else, reciprocity yes, right, leads them to 0:15:53.116 --> 0:15:55.236 trust you a little more in return to. 0:15:55.436 --> 0:15:59.196 Yeah, okay, So just to take a step back, you've 0:15:59.196 --> 0:16:03.596 shared with us so far that we had these mispredictions 0:16:03.716 --> 0:16:07.276 about how social interactions will unfold. They tend to be 0:16:07.476 --> 0:16:10.916 far better than our imaginations lead us to believe they 0:16:10.916 --> 0:16:16.716 will be. What are the costs to carrying around these misbeliefs? 0:16:16.876 --> 0:16:19.756 Why does it matter so much that we're getting this wrong? 0:16:21.636 --> 0:16:25.516 I think the cost is we choose to avoid opportunities 0:16:25.556 --> 0:16:27.716 to connect with other people that would make our lives 0:16:27.716 --> 0:16:31.636 and the lives we might reach out to better better 0:16:31.716 --> 0:16:35.036 in two senses. One is in terms of our well being, 0:16:35.236 --> 0:16:38.396 our happiness. One thing that psychologists have learned, which I 0:16:38.396 --> 0:16:41.436 think is really really important, is that happiness is really 0:16:41.516 --> 0:16:44.676 a function of the frequency with which we experience positive 0:16:44.796 --> 0:16:49.356 moments and events, not so much the intensity of them. Right, 0:16:49.476 --> 0:16:52.316 So you know that that amazing trip you took to 0:16:52.356 --> 0:16:54.996 the wedding to meet folks, Right, you come back on 0:16:55.076 --> 0:16:58.356 Monday and traffic is bad, and you're now back right 0:16:58.516 --> 0:17:02.396 that it's traffic sucks, and right back to where it's 0:17:02.476 --> 0:17:06.036 raining and cold, Yes, and it doesn't linger right. And 0:17:06.036 --> 0:17:08.596 and so I like to think of happiness like a 0:17:08.636 --> 0:17:11.076 leaky time that you know, you've got to keep it 0:17:11.116 --> 0:17:14.916 pumped up, right, And and so moments really matter, And 0:17:14.956 --> 0:17:18.076 if we're overly pessimistic about how others will respond, we'll 0:17:18.116 --> 0:17:20.596 just miss moments to kind of keep our tire filled up. 0:17:21.076 --> 0:17:25.676 How do we actually change our tendencies to mispredict, because 0:17:26.196 --> 0:17:29.316 like most things, the mere fact of just knowing that 0:17:29.356 --> 0:17:31.676 we mispredict isn't enough to correct the problem. 0:17:32.316 --> 0:17:34.956 So there's a phrase I try to keep in mind, 0:17:34.996 --> 0:17:40.036 which is to recognize easy opportunities routinely. And each of 0:17:40.116 --> 0:17:42.396 those pieces is important, I think. 0:17:42.636 --> 0:17:48.076 Okay, recognize easy opportunities routinely. Okay, let's start with recognize. 0:17:48.476 --> 0:17:50.636 So recognize, I think is really important because there are 0:17:50.636 --> 0:17:54.156 lots of opportunities for social interaction you don't even notice. Correct, 0:17:54.676 --> 0:17:58.116 You've just walked by somebody and you didn't smile at them. Yep, right, 0:17:58.196 --> 0:17:59.916 I just I just went from the door of my 0:17:59.956 --> 0:18:03.756 building up to my office on the fourth floor, and 0:18:03.836 --> 0:18:06.356 I didn't say hi to a soul, right because I 0:18:06.436 --> 0:18:09.596 just wasn't even thinking about them. And so I think 0:18:09.956 --> 0:18:13.476 recognizing when it is you are choosing, even not really 0:18:13.516 --> 0:18:17.116 deliberately or consciously, you're choosing to avoid other people. You're 0:18:17.156 --> 0:18:19.596 making the choice to hold back. I think that's the 0:18:19.596 --> 0:18:22.036 first step. And you'll once you start taking an interest 0:18:22.076 --> 0:18:25.316 in other people, you'll start seeing a lot of opportunities 0:18:25.316 --> 0:18:28.396 that you maybe hadn't even noticed before. One thing we 0:18:28.676 --> 0:18:30.636 that I kind of like to advise people in this 0:18:30.676 --> 0:18:33.996 regard is to do a choice audit, which is to 0:18:33.996 --> 0:18:36.236 to go back the day before and think about times 0:18:36.236 --> 0:18:39.596 where you made the choice to hold back and avoid 0:18:39.716 --> 0:18:41.996 interacting with somebody, where in this hour you could have 0:18:42.876 --> 0:18:46.116 but you didn't reach out. You didn't say hi to 0:18:46.156 --> 0:18:49.116 the barista at the Starbucks, or you didn't talk to 0:18:49.156 --> 0:18:51.796 your uber driver just to see how they were doing, 0:18:51.916 --> 0:18:54.196 or you didn't call an old friend when you when 0:18:54.196 --> 0:18:54.516 you could. 0:18:54.996 --> 0:18:57.676 This is start you feel personal. Okay, sorry, you're describing 0:18:57.876 --> 0:18:58.676 my yesterday. 0:18:59.156 --> 0:19:01.236 I'm not. I'm not that kind of psychologist mile. 0:19:01.236 --> 0:19:06.236 Okay I was with my post wedding stupor Okay. 0:19:05.516 --> 0:19:08.676 All right, all right, but you might you might be inspired. 0:19:08.716 --> 0:19:10.756 You know what I think about, Maybe I could, you know, 0:19:10.836 --> 0:19:13.516 another day, try to do something, try to make those 0:19:13.556 --> 0:19:14.316 choices att different. 0:19:14.476 --> 0:19:15.276 And I love the. 0:19:15.276 --> 0:19:18.476 Choice on it because you're right, it does illuminate these 0:19:18.556 --> 0:19:22.596 moments that, like you said, it wasn't like we made. 0:19:22.716 --> 0:19:25.476 If let's say you're in a bad mood, right, yeah, 0:19:25.596 --> 0:19:29.036 totally fine to make the deliberate choice to not engage 0:19:29.036 --> 0:19:32.636 with people, But the moments you're pointing out are the 0:19:32.636 --> 0:19:34.996 ones in which the lack of awareness kind of the 0:19:35.036 --> 0:19:37.796 lack of consciousness is what led us to not engage, 0:19:38.196 --> 0:19:41.436 not anything more deliberate than that. And it's helpful for 0:19:41.556 --> 0:19:43.956 us to notice those moments because those are the ones 0:19:43.996 --> 0:19:46.116 we can actually do something about it exactly would want 0:19:46.156 --> 0:19:47.956 to do something about, or. 0:19:47.916 --> 0:19:50.236 Those moments where you avoided somebody because you thought this 0:19:50.356 --> 0:19:52.036 was going to go poorly. Yes, right, those are the 0:19:52.076 --> 0:19:55.396 ones that I would have red flags about that really 0:19:55.476 --> 0:19:58.516 stick in my mind. Is ah, that's probably one worth testing? 0:19:58.716 --> 0:20:00.796 Yes, yes, yes, So that's. 0:20:00.676 --> 0:20:04.156 The recognized part easy. If you want people to do stuff, 0:20:04.276 --> 0:20:08.316 you make it easy. And that's where I think, like, 0:20:08.356 --> 0:20:10.676 if you go over your choice audit for the day before, 0:20:11.076 --> 0:20:13.076 some of those conversations are going to be going to 0:20:13.156 --> 0:20:14.596 be hard for you to have. You're just not in 0:20:14.636 --> 0:20:15.876 the mood at the end of the day to have 0:20:15.916 --> 0:20:19.996 a conversation whenever you're exhausted. Fine, fine, talk on your 0:20:20.036 --> 0:20:22.716 morning commute or make a call. Then right, pick pick 0:20:22.756 --> 0:20:25.796 the easy ones and start there. When it comes to 0:20:25.836 --> 0:20:29.516 things like acts of kindness, Right, there's some that are 0:20:29.556 --> 0:20:31.356 really hard. Those are gonna be challenging, but the easy 0:20:31.396 --> 0:20:35.316 ones go along ways too. Sometimes doing the thing that 0:20:35.356 --> 0:20:36.916 we might want to do to lift this up is 0:20:36.956 --> 0:20:39.676 hard because we don't have stuff on hand. So, for instance, 0:20:39.996 --> 0:20:42.756 in my office at work, I've got a stack of 0:20:42.796 --> 0:20:45.716 thank you notes sitting right on the right on the 0:20:46.636 --> 0:20:49.436 file cabinet next to my dresser, so that when I 0:20:49.476 --> 0:20:51.676 have a moment of gratitude for somebody, I've got a 0:20:51.716 --> 0:20:53.796 letter right there boom, I can fill it out off a. 0:20:53.836 --> 0:20:56.636 Ghost yeah, or or an another one that I was 0:20:56.716 --> 0:21:00.716 just thinking of that I would love to have easy 0:21:00.756 --> 0:21:03.916 to go to questions that aren't in the realm of 0:21:04.196 --> 0:21:07.276 platitudes and small talk, which is anathematic for me. Like 0:21:07.276 --> 0:21:09.756 that's one of the reasons I don't initiate the conversation 0:21:09.796 --> 0:21:12.756 with the stranger person because I hate small talk. It's 0:21:12.796 --> 0:21:15.316 so it's so not fun for me. But if we 0:21:15.356 --> 0:21:18.516 could jump in and talk about something who's super interesting 0:21:18.596 --> 0:21:20.356 right after that, I'd be much more game. 0:21:20.476 --> 0:21:22.356 Can I change your life with one question? 0:21:22.596 --> 0:21:22.956