Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: I study mind reading for a living I study how
Speaker 2: we make inferences about each other's thoughts, beliefs, attitudes, and
Speaker 2: mostly what I'm interested in is how we screw that
Speaker 2: up and misunderstand each other so often.
Speaker 1: Nick Epley is a professor of social psychology at the
Speaker 1: University of Chicago. His research shows that we often avoid
Speaker 1: connecting with other people because we mistakenly believe they don't
Speaker 1: want to engage with us.
Speaker 2: I remember thinking, man, if that's something we're all doing,
Speaker 2: If I'm consistently underestimating you know how things will go
Speaker 2: if I reach out to engage with somebody, I could
Speaker 2: have lots of moments that are and realizing this would
Speaker 2: be life changing.
Speaker 1: On today's show, why the happiness we're after maybe hiding
Speaker 1: in the conversations we avoid. I'm Maya Schunker, a scientist
Speaker 1: who studies human behavior, and this is a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans, a show about who we are and who
Speaker 1: we become in the face of a big change. Cocktail
Speaker 1: parties give me the he begbis. The thought of standing
Speaker 1: in a room with a bunch of strangers is anxiety producing.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's because small talk kind of sucks, or because
Speaker 1: I'm worried I'll intrude on someone else's great conversation, or
Speaker 1: because I'm just not sure what I'll have to say.
Speaker 1: Nick says we often avoid conversations and social settings because
Speaker 1: we're worried they'll go badly, but the research shows they
Speaker 1: actually go way better than we predict. Means we're missing
Speaker 1: out on a lot of really positive connections, whether it's
Speaker 1: in an elevator or in line at a coffee shop,
Speaker 1: and those connections can enrich our lives. Nick found inspiration
Speaker 1: for this research on his way to work one morning.
Speaker 2: This particular morning, I was writing a chapter from my
Speaker 2: first book where I was describing how we're uniquely social
Speaker 2: agents with brains that are equipped for connecting with the
Speaker 2: minds of others, made happier and healthier by connecting with
Speaker 2: other people. And I had sort of this Eureka moment
Speaker 2: where I looked around the train and I kind of
Speaker 2: noticed with fresh eyes that we were all sitting there
Speaker 2: hip to hip, not saying an absolute word to each other.
Speaker 2: You could have heard a pin drop. I mean, all
Speaker 2: highly social animals happier and healthier connecting with other people.
Speaker 2: And then there we all were ignoring each other, and
Speaker 2: that just seemed weird. It struck me as bizarre. And
Speaker 2: you know, again, it's not like I hadn't noticed this
Speaker 2: thing before, but I noticed it with like a scientist
Speaker 2: lens that morning, and it seemed like a weird paradox.
Speaker 2: So that morning, a woman had sat down next to me.
Speaker 2: She was I would have guessed fifty ish years old.
Speaker 2: I was probably about thirty five at the time. She
Speaker 2: was dressed for work very professionally, and she had just
Speaker 2: this killer red hat. And I decided I was going
Speaker 2: to try to I was just going to do something
Speaker 2: different this morning and just see how it went. So
Speaker 2: I kind of got up some courage because nobody was speaking,
Speaker 2: and I turned to her and I started with high
Speaker 2: I'm Nick and then I said I love your hat.
Speaker 2: I have one just like it, which is not a
Speaker 2: is not a killer opening line, like it is not
Speaker 2: it is not you know, Hall of Fame material. But
Speaker 2: she she kind of lit up, like you know, you
Speaker 2: had I paid attention to somebody, she had been seen
Speaker 2: and somebody had taken interest in her. She just turned
Speaker 2: to me with a big smile and we kind of
Speaker 2: laughed with each other, and then things just kind of
Speaker 2: started flowing in the conversation. It was it was quite easy.
Speaker 2: I kind of imagined I wouldn't have a whole lot
Speaker 2: in common with her, but then once we started talking,
Speaker 2: we found all kinds of things we had in common.
Speaker 2: And you know, it was not this's not an earth
Speaker 2: shattering conversation. But I remember very distinctly when I when
Speaker 2: I got up to leave, she stopped me and she said,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for taking the time to talk
Speaker 2: with me, And there was a level of sincerity. She
Speaker 2: like had her hand on my wrist as I was leaving,
Speaker 2: and I remember feeling not just that that was good,
Speaker 2: it was surprisingly good. And there was a gap between
Speaker 2: the way I had imagined that conversation would go and
Speaker 2: how that conversation actually went. And I remember very distinctly
Speaker 2: getting off the train and thinking, Man, if that's something
Speaker 2: we're all doing, if I'm consistently underestimating, you know, how
Speaker 2: things will go. If I reach out to engage with somebody,
Speaker 2: I could have lots of moments that are better. And
Speaker 2: realizing this would would like be life changing. You know,
Speaker 2: as researchers, that's an anecdote, whatever it means nothing, it's
Speaker 2: an anecdote. One day point, but it got me thinking
Speaker 2: we could do an experiment on this.
Speaker 1: Okay, So to summarize, you left that interaction with a
Speaker 1: woman thinking, relative to my expectations, this conversation went so
Speaker 1: much better.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Then you had a secondary thought on the wisdom piece,
Speaker 1: which is, well, we could all recognize that there's this
Speaker 1: disparity between how we think these conversations will unfold and
Speaker 1: how they actually do unfold. We would all be better
Speaker 1: off given that we are inherently social creatures.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Tell me about the experiment that you did run and
Speaker 1: what you were hoping to validate from that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, my collaborator, Juliana Schroeder and I she was
Speaker 2: a PhD student at the time, we went out into
Speaker 2: the field the test that's just on the trains. We
Speaker 2: just went right back to the train that I ride
Speaker 2: every day, and our first experiment, we recruited people and
Speaker 2: we randomly assigned them to try one of three things
Speaker 2: on the train that morning. We asked them to either
Speaker 2: keep to themselves in solitude, just focus on their dayhead,
Speaker 2: don't engage anybody in conversation. In the control condition, which
Speaker 2: is just do whatever you normally do. They could talk,
Speaker 2: but overwhelmingly they do not. And then in the third condition,
Speaker 2: we asked people to try to have a conversation with
Speaker 2: a person who sits down next to them, try to
Speaker 2: connect with them, and we gave them a five dollars
Speaker 2: Starbucks gift card, which is the biggest incentive that you
Speaker 2: can possibly give somebody in the morning. They'll do anything
Speaker 2: for coffee in the morning. And then we gave them
Speaker 2: an envelope with the survey inside it. They opened it
Speaker 2: up at the end of their commute and they told
Speaker 2: us how their commute went, how pleasant it was compared
Speaker 2: to no more, how happy they felt, how sad they felt,
Speaker 2: and also how productive they were on the commute that morning.
Speaker 2: And what we found was that people actually reported having
Speaker 2: a better commute in the connection condition than they did
Speaker 2: in the solitude condition, and the control was in the middle,
Speaker 2: and so people actually had the best commute when they
Speaker 2: were being social and having a conversation with somebody. And
Speaker 2: that's kind of puzzling because nobody doesn't, yeah, right. And
Speaker 2: so to test the other part of this potential equation,
Speaker 2: we recruited another sample of commuters from the Homewo train station,
Speaker 2: and instead of actually having them do these things. We
Speaker 2: had them predict how they would feel if they did
Speaker 2: these things, and there people's expectations were precisely the opposite
Speaker 2: of what the actual experiences that we observed were. So
Speaker 2: they believed, they predicted they would have the most pleasant
Speaker 2: commute if they just kept to themselves in solitude or
Speaker 2: did whatever they normally did, and would had the least
Speaker 2: pleasant commute if they connected with a stranger. And so
Speaker 2: you can kind of now make sense of a behavior
Speaker 2: on the train. Highly social creatures made happier and healthier
Speaker 2: by connecting to each other. Won't do it, will choose
Speaker 2: not to talk if they think it's going to be terrible.
Speaker 2: So people were following their expectations. It's just their expectations
Speaker 2: were wrong.
Speaker 1: Yeah, My favorite findings in social psychology are, of course,
Speaker 1: those where they reveal that we mispredict things right. We
Speaker 1: think an experience is going to be a certain way,
Speaker 1: and turns out we tend to get it wrong. In
Speaker 1: your books, you write about several of the reasons why
Speaker 1: we don't always act in our social best interests. So
Speaker 1: to lay the groundwork here, it is highly evolutionarily advantageous
Speaker 1: for us to engage socially with others. In many ways,
Speaker 1: our survival is a species required that we be very
Speaker 1: socially attuned to other people and their needs and our
Speaker 1: membership in those groups. When we don't know how someone
Speaker 1: will react, we tend to fill in that gap, that
Speaker 1: lack of knowledge with a range of pessimistic possibilities that
Speaker 1: are more pessimistic than what is likely to happen.
Speaker 2: That's correct, And what that really highlights is overlooking a
Speaker 2: critical feature in social interaction, and that is reciprocity and responsiveness.
Speaker 2: If I smile at you, maya gonna likely smile back
Speaker 2: at me. I say hi to you, you say hi
Speaker 2: back to me. But people's expectations don't really seem to
Speaker 2: appreciate the power of that reciprocity, So they imagine that like,
Speaker 2: anything is possible, right I could I could try to
Speaker 2: have this conversation with you, and you could you know,
Speaker 2: punch me in the face, or you know, throw me
Speaker 2: off the train. What they imagine this crazy very wide
Speaker 2: range anything is possible. But in a world where social
Speaker 2: interaction is reciprocal, the actual outcomes are constrained.
Speaker 3: It's not as uncertain as we think.
Speaker 2: No, no, it's not. In fact, mostly it turns out,
Speaker 2: when you reach out to another person in a positive way,
Speaker 2: it just dramatically increases the odds that they'll reach back
Speaker 2: to you in a positive way too. There's just there's
Speaker 2: much less range than people imagine because we don't appreciate
Speaker 2: the power of reciprocity to constrain the range of outcomes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, another barrier you articulate concerns mismatched perspectives. So you
Speaker 1: say people tend to evaluate themselves based on a different
Speaker 1: and often harsher standard than we might judge others. Talking
Speaker 1: about how that comes into play here, I've.
Speaker 2: Been interested in these mismatched perspectives for my entire career.
Speaker 2: It's right at the center of social cognition. How thinking
Speaker 2: people think about other thinking people is you got two minds, right,
Speaker 2: two minds with eyes and experiences and perspectives that can differ,
Speaker 2: And we don't always appreciate when our own perspective is unique.
Speaker 2: We tend to evaluate ourselves in terms of our competency.
Speaker 2: How capable are we? How effective are we? You sit
Speaker 2: down to a conversation, you think, what on earth am
Speaker 2: I going to say? Can I right? Can I can
Speaker 2: I do this? What do we have in common to
Speaker 2: talk about anything I don't know, So we're focused on
Speaker 2: our competency. Other people, though, tend to be focused more
Speaker 2: on our warmth. Are you friendly? Are you kind? Are
Speaker 2: you trustworthy? Are you someone I can approach you know
Speaker 2: and be around? Or are you a scary person I
Speaker 2: should try to avoid? Yeah, And that's the thing other
Speaker 2: people first and foremost care about us is are we
Speaker 2: decent people? But if I'm focused on my competency, I'm
Speaker 2: going to be able to carry on this conversation. I'm
Speaker 2: just likely to be judging myself more harshly, evaluating this
Speaker 2: interaction from a more pessimistic standard than is warranted, because
Speaker 2: you're just viewing it through through a different lens than
Speaker 2: I am.
Speaker 1: We had Vanessa Bonds on the show. We talked about
Speaker 1: the likability gap, which refers to the idea that we
Speaker 1: routinely underestimate how likable we are in the eyes of others.
Speaker 1: And do you think this is partly responsible for that
Speaker 1: likability gap, that we're judging ourselves along the competency dimension
Speaker 1: versus the warmth one.
Speaker 2: I think very much it could be. This has not
Speaker 2: been tested directly, but it would not surprise me that
Speaker 2: where they find. This liking gap is typically after an interaction.
Speaker 2: I just think you like me less afterwards than you
Speaker 2: actually do. You look back over the conversation, you.
Speaker 3: Think, oh, dang, I got this said that awkward?
Speaker 1: Yeah, but would I say that in such an insecure way?
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, you're right, Like.
Speaker 3: I don't actually have the same red hat. Does you
Speaker 3: know it was a joke?
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. Yeah. I mean every talk I've
Speaker 2: ever given, I go. But if I actually look at it,
Speaker 2: it's painful to do that. Right, You just think, oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, that is the worst. Look at all these
Speaker 2: lines I got wrong. Other people just don't care as much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just don't care as much, right, Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I totally tracks of my experience. I almost exclusively evaluate
Speaker 1: people based on warmth when I'm out in the world. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever thought this person lacks conversational competency.
Speaker 1: Therefore I'm going to be rude to them or ignore that.
Speaker 1: I mean, that just feels preposterous. But I'm extremely moved
Speaker 1: by signals of warmth. Right if there's a big smile
Speaker 1: on their face, if you know they greet you with
Speaker 1: tenderness or kindness that goes such a long way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes I struggle with this a little bit, Like
Speaker 2: I sometimes I want a little more competency judgment. Like
Speaker 2: when I ask my kids, how are your teachers? Inevitably
Speaker 2: they tell me if they're nice or not. They don't
Speaker 2: tell me, well, you know, do they get the algebra right?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting is, even if we do think
Speaker 1: that people are indexing on our competency right, we should
Speaker 1: remind ourselves that, let's say we're not the perfect conversationalist.
Speaker 3: Let's say we get a joke wrong.
Speaker 1: If people can read our good intent, they will adjust
Speaker 1: and adapt and often jumped in.
Speaker 3: To rescue you.
Speaker 1: I was just this weekend at my sister's wedding, So
Speaker 1: I'm meeting the groom side of the family, and you
Speaker 1: just get so tired at a certain point of meeting
Speaker 1: new people, and so I was losing my bearings and
Speaker 1: I just had this incredibly awkward exchange in the elevator
Speaker 1: with Chris, my brother in law's aunt, right, because she's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm part of that side of the family, and for
Speaker 1: some reason, Nick, I just like I couldn't remember what
Speaker 1: she was. I was like that side, mother's side, father.
Speaker 1: So I just start I just start shooting darts in
Speaker 1: the dark. I was like, I don't know what she
Speaker 1: means extended side of the family, my side of the family.
Speaker 1: So I'm like gassing error. And then she jumps in, right,
Speaker 1: She's rescuing me. She's like and by that I meant
Speaker 1: Maya who is currently cognitively impaired from being socially over stimulated.
Speaker 1: I meant his mother's side of the family. And so
Speaker 1: it was just a nice reminder people will help you
Speaker 1: out a little bit when you're sinking.
Speaker 2: Yes, When I was in graduate school, this was years
Speaker 2: ago at Cornell, one of the projects we worked on
Speaker 2: found that people fail to appreciate how much others can
Speaker 2: empathize with him when they do something somewhat embarrassing or
Speaker 2: they struggle. And this is very much what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: People thought they were being judged more harshly when they
Speaker 2: did something embarrassing when they actually were because other people
Speaker 2: could recognize what it was like to be in that
Speaker 2: state and cut you some slack as a result.
Speaker 1: And isn't there even additional research showing that showing a
Speaker 1: bit of that vulnerability is an excellent way to build
Speaker 1: trust and break down barriers and actually facilitated deeper connection.
Speaker 1: Like when I flugved and said something really silly or
Speaker 1: embarrassing or kind of put my foot in my mouth.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it breaks the ice and at least
Speaker 1: has led historically to a slightly more meaningful conversation because
Speaker 1: it's like, all right, well, we got to break through
Speaker 1: the pleasantries now because I've already screwed up. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: already screwed up the dynamic and all the you know,
Speaker 1: the formalities of this conversation.
Speaker 2: I think that's one big thing that happens when we
Speaker 2: ask people to have deep and meaningful conversations with somebody
Speaker 2: else is that they they do open themselves up. They
Speaker 2: make themselves vulnerable in the sense that they're revealing something
Speaker 2: meaningful about themselves to somebody else and in so doing
Speaker 2: or trusting the other person. And when you signal that
Speaker 2: you trust somebody else, reciprocity yes, right, leads them to
Speaker 2: trust you a little more in return to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So just to take a step back, you've
Speaker 1: shared with us so far that we had these mispredictions
Speaker 1: about how social interactions will unfold. They tend to be
Speaker 1: far better than our imaginations lead us to believe they
Speaker 1: will be. What are the costs to carrying around these misbeliefs?
Speaker 1: Why does it matter so much that we're getting this wrong?
Speaker 2: I think the cost is we choose to avoid opportunities
Speaker 2: to connect with other people that would make our lives
Speaker 2: and the lives we might reach out to better better
Speaker 2: in two senses. One is in terms of our well being,
Speaker 2: our happiness. One thing that psychologists have learned, which I
Speaker 2: think is really really important, is that happiness is really
Speaker 2: a function of the frequency with which we experience positive
Speaker 2: moments and events, not so much the intensity of them. Right,
Speaker 2: So you know that that amazing trip you took to
Speaker 2: the wedding to meet folks, Right, you come back on
Speaker 2: Monday and traffic is bad, and you're now back right
Speaker 2: that it's traffic sucks, and right back to where it's
Speaker 2: raining and cold, Yes, and it doesn't linger right. And
Speaker 2: and so I like to think of happiness like a
Speaker 2: leaky time that you know, you've got to keep it
Speaker 2: pumped up, right, And and so moments really matter, And
Speaker 2: if we're overly pessimistic about how others will respond, we'll
Speaker 2: just miss moments to kind of keep our tire filled up.
Speaker 1: How do we actually change our tendencies to mispredict, because
Speaker 1: like most things, the mere fact of just knowing that
Speaker 1: we mispredict isn't enough to correct the problem.
Speaker 2: So there's a phrase I try to keep in mind,
Speaker 2: which is to recognize easy opportunities routinely. And each of
Speaker 2: those pieces is important, I think.
Speaker 1: Okay, recognize easy opportunities routinely. Okay, let's start with recognize.
Speaker 2: So recognize, I think is really important because there are
Speaker 2: lots of opportunities for social interaction you don't even notice. Correct,
Speaker 2: You've just walked by somebody and you didn't smile at them. Yep, right,
Speaker 2: I just I just went from the door of my
Speaker 2: building up to my office on the fourth floor, and
Speaker 2: I didn't say hi to a soul, right because I
Speaker 2: just wasn't even thinking about them. And so I think
Speaker 2: recognizing when it is you are choosing, even not really
Speaker 2: deliberately or consciously, you're choosing to avoid other people. You're
Speaker 2: making the choice to hold back. I think that's the
Speaker 2: first step. And you'll once you start taking an interest
Speaker 2: in other people, you'll start seeing a lot of opportunities
Speaker 2: that you maybe hadn't even noticed before. One thing we
Speaker 2: that I kind of like to advise people in this
Speaker 2: regard is to do a choice audit, which is to
Speaker 2: to go back the day before and think about times
Speaker 2: where you made the choice to hold back and avoid
Speaker 2: interacting with somebody, where in this hour you could have
Speaker 2: but you didn't reach out. You didn't say hi to
Speaker 2: the barista at the Starbucks, or you didn't talk to
Speaker 2: your uber driver just to see how they were doing,
Speaker 2: or you didn't call an old friend when you when
Speaker 2: you could.
Speaker 1: This is start you feel personal. Okay, sorry, you're describing
Speaker 1: my yesterday.
Speaker 2: I'm not. I'm not that kind of psychologist mile.
Speaker 1: Okay I was with my post wedding stupor Okay.
Speaker 2: All right, all right, but you might you might be inspired.
Speaker 2: You know what I think about, Maybe I could, you know,
Speaker 2: another day, try to do something, try to make those
Speaker 2: choices att different.
Speaker 3: And I love the.
Speaker 1: Choice on it because you're right, it does illuminate these
Speaker 1: moments that, like you said, it wasn't like we made.
Speaker 1: If let's say you're in a bad mood, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: totally fine to make the deliberate choice to not engage
Speaker 1: with people, But the moments you're pointing out are the
Speaker 1: ones in which the lack of awareness kind of the
Speaker 1: lack of consciousness is what led us to not engage,
Speaker 1: not anything more deliberate than that. And it's helpful for
Speaker 1: us to notice those moments because those are the ones
Speaker 1: we can actually do something about it exactly would want
Speaker 1: to do something about, or.
Speaker 2: Those moments where you avoided somebody because you thought this
Speaker 2: was going to go poorly. Yes, right, those are the
Speaker 2: ones that I would have red flags about that really
Speaker 2: stick in my mind. Is ah, that's probably one worth testing?
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, So that's.
Speaker 2: The recognized part easy. If you want people to do stuff,
Speaker 2: you make it easy. And that's where I think, like,
Speaker 2: if you go over your choice audit for the day before,
Speaker 2: some of those conversations are going to be going to
Speaker 2: be hard for you to have. You're just not in
Speaker 2: the mood at the end of the day to have
Speaker 2: a conversation whenever you're exhausted. Fine, fine, talk on your
Speaker 2: morning commute or make a call. Then right, pick pick
Speaker 2: the easy ones and start there. When it comes to
Speaker 2: things like acts of kindness, Right, there's some that are
Speaker 2: really hard. Those are gonna be challenging, but the easy
Speaker 2: ones go along ways too. Sometimes doing the thing that
Speaker 2: we might want to do to lift this up is
Speaker 2: hard because we don't have stuff on hand. So, for instance,
Speaker 2: in my office at work, I've got a stack of
Speaker 2: thank you notes sitting right on the right on the
Speaker 2: file cabinet next to my dresser, so that when I
Speaker 2: have a moment of gratitude for somebody, I've got a
Speaker 2: letter right there boom, I can fill it out off a.
Speaker 1: Ghost yeah, or or an another one that I was
Speaker 1: just thinking of that I would love to have easy
Speaker 1: to go to questions that aren't in the realm of
Speaker 1: platitudes and small talk, which is anathematic for me. Like
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons I don't initiate the conversation
Speaker 1: with the stranger person because I hate small talk. It's
Speaker 1: so it's so not fun for me. But if we
Speaker 1: could jump in and talk about something who's super interesting
Speaker 1: right after that, I'd be much more game.
Speaker 2: Can I change your life with one question?
Speaker 3: Please?
Speaker 2: So the one I love to lead with to get
Speaker 2: out of the small talk. I don't even need a
Speaker 2: second question. I just did the first thing. Oh dang it,
Speaker 2: I just asked people, can you tell me your story.
Speaker 2: I love that you sit down with somebody you ask them,
Speaker 2: you know, tell me what your story. Yeah, And people
Speaker 2: will tell you things you'd be you would just be
Speaker 2: stunned by.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the other big findings you talk about in
Speaker 1: your book is that people really crave deep conversation. They
Speaker 1: want to get past the superficial. Correct And what often
Speaker 1: happens when I ask my nieces or nephews how is
Speaker 1: your day?
Speaker 3: How school going good? How are your teachers good? But
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 1: Asking my nephew, Eddie, you could have any superpower, like,
Speaker 1: what would it be? And I said, do you believe
Speaker 1: in God? And He's like sometimes, And the reason it
Speaker 1: sometimes is if I were to ask God to throw
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars on me right now at this wedding,
Speaker 1: it's not going to happen.
Speaker 3: He's like, let me try it right now.
Speaker 1: He's a true empiricist, you know, we ask right, no, no,
Speaker 1: no cash flowing from the ceiling. And so you do
Speaker 1: just get at someone's heart. Depending on you know the
Speaker 1: depth of the question you ask, you.
Speaker 2: Can And that's also a place where you recognize opportunity
Speaker 2: you have in a conversation. Maya, you said you don't
Speaker 2: like small talk. Yeah, who's responsible for that?
Speaker 3: Need you are to some expense?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: You can?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: We can all Instead of asking you know, what do
Speaker 2: you do? Yeah, we can ask why do you do that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: We think other people don't want to have these conversations.
Speaker 2: That's what we find is a big barrier that other
Speaker 2: people aren't going to care about this that much. They
Speaker 2: don't really want to do this. This is also why
Speaker 2: people are reluctant to talk to strangers. They think other
Speaker 2: people aren't interested, and we're just wrong about that. If
Speaker 2: you knew that other people wanted to have the same
Speaker 2: kind of meaningful conversations that you did, you would totally
Speaker 2: feel empowered to ask someone what's your story? Maryah?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, tell me right, you know, tell me
Speaker 2: what's your dream job and are you know, are you
Speaker 2: in it now or do you have another one? Or
Speaker 2: you know, tell me about somebody you love? Right, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't feel I don't feel awkward anymore asking people
Speaker 2: those kinds of things, and then they'll ask me in return.
Speaker 2: And once you recognize that other people often not always,
Speaker 2: I mean, a question like this invites somebody into a conversation.
Speaker 2: It doesn't demand it. Yeah, it invites them and if
Speaker 2: they are open, which I think you'll often find they are,
Speaker 2: you'll just have a lot better conversations and you can
Speaker 2: take you can take charge over that to some extent.
Speaker 1: Okay, So that was we covered recognize and easy. What
Speaker 1: about opportunities?
Speaker 2: Yep, when we think about what an event entails, we
Speaker 2: tend to think about it a little too narrowly. Psychologists
Speaker 2: sometimes refer to this as as affordances. Right, what an
Speaker 2: what an experience or what a what an activity affords?
Speaker 2: So Bradam wall and down to the faculty lounge to
Speaker 2: get a cup of coffee. That activity is for going
Speaker 2: to get coffee. But if I construe it too narrowly,
Speaker 2: I miss well, I could also say Hi, it's my
Speaker 2: colleague down the hall and take them with me for
Speaker 2: a little conversation to get coffee too. I could expand that, yes,
Speaker 2: and see more opportunity, more affordances in an activity that
Speaker 2: I might than I might otherwise.
Speaker 1: One thing that was so interesting to me in reading
Speaker 1: your book is, on the one hand, we're talking about
Speaker 1: this loneliness epidemic and that feelings of disconnection are say
Speaker 1: at an all time high as things like weekly church
Speaker 1: services and community gatherings and other sorts of social rituals
Speaker 1: start to decline. On the other hand, we also have
Speaker 1: the means to be hyper connected, to be in constant
Speaker 1: conversation with our significant others, with our kids, with our
Speaker 1: best friends through texting, messaging, phone calls, FaceTime.
Speaker 3: What have you.
Speaker 1: And so how should I kind of reconcile these two
Speaker 1: truths about the world in terms of my view of
Speaker 1: where we stand right now as a society connectedness wise.
Speaker 2: I think maybe the way to think about is that
Speaker 2: some interactions are like diet soda. They seem good, yeah right,
Speaker 2: it seems like that's the real thing, yep, But it's
Speaker 2: not really given us the real thing, okay, Right, So
Speaker 2: when my wife sends me a heart emojip, that feels nice,
Speaker 2: it's not a hug and a kiss, right right. When
Speaker 2: I see my neighbors on social media, that's good, but
Speaker 2: it's not having cookies with them after church. And what's
Speaker 2: I think also interesting is that it seems like diet
Speaker 2: soda too, in the sense that people's expectations don't really
Speaker 2: fully appreciate the difference across these media how you interact
Speaker 2: turns out to have a meaningful effect on how connected
Speaker 2: you feel. But when we look at people's expectations, yeah,
Speaker 2: they tend to treat these different kinds of media, some
Speaker 2: that might be really high in terms of the connection
Speaker 2: they create and some lower. They treat them as similarly
Speaker 2: and are wrong about that.
Speaker 1: After the break, what to do when a conversation goes poorly?
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. I'm putting myself in the shoes of a
Speaker 1: listener and I am one of these people. How do
Speaker 1: you rebound from a conversation that goes poorly so that
Speaker 1: you don't over index on it. So let's say I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: taking Nick Efley's advice, and I try to have a
Speaker 1: conversation tomorrow, say on the train, and someone gives me
Speaker 1: kind of like the you know, side eye, cold shoulder whatever,
Speaker 1: and I feel a sense of rejection, let's say, or
Speaker 1: just this person's like, why the hell are you talking
Speaker 1: to me?
Speaker 3: Do this is super weird. I'm trying to do my thing.
Speaker 1: How do we not let that be the thing that
Speaker 1: dictates all future non interactions or interactions?
Speaker 2: Well, so I think there I think there are two
Speaker 2: things to say to this, both of which are somewhat encouraging.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: One is, so I cover the story of of jia
Speaker 2: Jiang in my book. He tried to make himself dull
Speaker 2: to rejection by getting rejected one hundred times in a row. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was so. He he was just going to ask
Speaker 2: one hundred ludicrous requests of people over a period one
Speaker 2: hundred days to get rejected a one hundred times and
Speaker 2: develop all this thick skin. And what he found? What's
Speaker 2: that number? One? People actually didn't reject him all that much.
Speaker 2: So over these hundred days he was actually we found
Speaker 2: when we analyzed the videos that he posted, we found
Speaker 2: that he was actually rejected less often than these ludicrous
Speaker 2: requests were accepted.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 2: And second, even when he was rejected, it wasn't that bad.
Speaker 2: So people will let you down more easily than you
Speaker 2: might imagine. So there's that, okay, But then the other thing,
Speaker 2: imagine that they don't imagine that you do have this disaster,
Speaker 2: one that goes really poorly. I do think that could
Speaker 2: stick in your stick, could stick in your mind. I
Speaker 2: think the only way to think about that is to
Speaker 2: recognize that you're you think about yourself as an experimentalist.
Speaker 2: You're running an experiment.
Speaker 1: Depersonalize it as much as you can, right, the personal Yeah,
Speaker 1: at least in the beginning.
Speaker 2: Exactly right. And you know, researchers find you know that
Speaker 2: we're we're pretty good at rationalizing stuff. So I think
Speaker 2: you'll be able to do this. Right. Oh, that guy
Speaker 2: was just a jerk. She you know, she was just
Speaker 2: having a bad day. But recognize that that was that
Speaker 2: was a one swing and a miss.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Try again, Yeah, and try again and try again. Right,
Speaker 2: just do it ten times and see how it goes
Speaker 2: most of the time. I go, well, and that's how
Speaker 2: you overcome those those losses. Is you pick up some
Speaker 2: you keep trying to pick up some gains too.
Speaker 1: Okay, second question I have is how does this advice
Speaker 1: intersect with personality type like introversion extraversion? And are there
Speaker 1: some people for whom those interactions just aren't worth the
Speaker 1: negative cloud of whatever that comes along with it.
Speaker 2: So look, I want to be a little careful with
Speaker 2: this because the because the realm of individual differences and
Speaker 2: variability is huge. Yes, right, so not everybody can carry
Speaker 2: on a conversation as easily as others, and that all is.
Speaker 3: Very crul and people will enjoy it to varying degrees.
Speaker 2: They they will, although there's they will and depending on
Speaker 2: the moment that you're in. It indexes though extraversion and
Speaker 2: introversion more weakly than you might imagine that it does.
Speaker 2: And I think this has been really surprising the psychologists,
Speaker 2: and it's really been a kind of an evolution I
Speaker 2: think in the way psychologists have thought have come to
Speaker 2: think about personality, at least when it comes to extraversion
Speaker 2: and introversion, over the last fifty years. And really what
Speaker 2: you find is that extraversion and introversion really describes more
Speaker 2: about the choices you tend to make than how you
Speaker 2: experience choices once you have made them. I see, so
Speaker 2: extroverts and introverts in conversation, like in a dietic conversation,
Speaker 2: tend to enjoy it pretty similarly. There are not big
Speaker 2: differences between them, but there are big differences in how
Speaker 2: they think they'll enjoy them.
Speaker 1: Okay, So one thing that's notable in your research is
Speaker 1: you find that it's already a pretty high magnitude gap
Speaker 1: between how much a person expects to like something and
Speaker 1: how much they actually do. What you're saying is the
Speaker 1: introvert might experience an even greater gap.
Speaker 2: That's correct. Okay, that's correct. So, if anything, that's what
Speaker 2: we tend to find. And so I think the best
Speaker 2: way to think about extraversion and introversion is it's a
Speaker 2: habit that's true of all personality. Yeah, right, and you
Speaker 2: can think of it like extra size. Right. So you know,
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong if you're not jogging daily or whatever,
Speaker 2: that's fine, right, you got other things to do. But
Speaker 2: if you'd like to make yourself in better shape and
Speaker 2: you're not exercising now, well, the way you do that
Speaker 2: is you change your habits and you try to get
Speaker 2: a little more exercise. The same thing is true about
Speaker 2: well being. If you're kind of feeling in a funk
Speaker 2: and you know, you just you just would like a
Speaker 2: little more, you know, uplifting moments in your day, regardless
Speaker 2: of whether you're an extrovert or an introvert. The way
Speaker 2: to do that is by reaching out and connecting with
Speaker 2: other people a little bit more often. Yeah, spending more
Speaker 2: time in the presence of other people. And that's that's
Speaker 2: a way to do it. To improve your social fitness.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know that.
Speaker 1: I've had experiences where I thought something was going to
Speaker 1: be overall miserable, and then it wasn't. So, for example,
Speaker 1: my husband is much more extroverted than I am. I'm
Speaker 1: I'm extrovert presenting, but I'm actually much more introverted. I'm
Speaker 1: talking cocktail party, wedding environment.
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, I'm with you.
Speaker 1: So I I just struggle, I really struggle. And it
Speaker 1: is interesting. In a wedding environment, let's say, or a
Speaker 1: cocktail party, there is the expectation of chatter, and so
Speaker 1: I'm not actually worried that someone's going to receive me poorly.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's where the misprediction happens. It's more
Speaker 1: it just feels so effortful. Yeah, and I'm often tired,
Speaker 1: so I'm like, I don't want to put in the work.
Speaker 3: This is hard. It feels like a hard thing, right.
Speaker 1: It's a hard thing to build rapport with another human
Speaker 1: being who you've never met. It'll be easier with some
Speaker 1: people and harder with other people, but you don't know
Speaker 1: what you're getting into at the outset. So the psychic
Speaker 1: costs are great. And yet there have been many times
Speaker 1: where I've come home and thought, Wow, that was so
Speaker 1: much more fun than I thought, right, or I had
Speaker 1: a much better time than I thought, or it was
Speaker 1: worth the activation energy that was required. Why is it
Speaker 1: that these memories don't stick? Like, why is it that
Speaker 1: the next time my husband wants to drag me to
Speaker 1: some social event, the memory of the positive things has,
Speaker 1: you know, disappeared, but the negative experiences I had with
Speaker 1: another person, those memories loom large. Yeah, So what kids, dude,
Speaker 1: help me out, help assistance.
Speaker 2: This is a this is a nut we're trying to
Speaker 2: crack right now for ourselves in my lab. Okay, So
Speaker 2: there are some ways of connecting with other people that
Speaker 2: are really good, like what we're doing now, dialogue, Yes,
Speaker 2: it's really good. Cocktail parties crappy, totally totally crappy.
Speaker 3: Oh great, Okay, so you're with me on that. What
Speaker 3: makes them suck.
Speaker 2: Because you can't actually have a conversation with somebody.
Speaker 1: Yes, And people are coming in and out, and there's
Speaker 1: an expectation you're supposed to move around the room, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I just want to be in the corner
Speaker 1: with one person for a dedicated minimum twenty minutes for
Speaker 1: me to enjoy myself. See my face, I'm even anticipating
Speaker 1: being at the cockpit party and I'm driving it. Get
Speaker 1: me out of here.
Speaker 3: People.
Speaker 2: I am with you, I hear you. The other thing
Speaker 2: that happens is you get into you become a broadcast
Speaker 2: yeah rather than right, rather than in a dialogue. So
Speaker 2: it's like four or five people.
Speaker 3: You're trying to like pull people in yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And now you're not talking about the last
Speaker 2: time you cried in front of another person or your
Speaker 2: hopes and dreams right now you're.
Speaker 1: Talking about in front of them in the moment, because
Speaker 1: it's something like it.
Speaker 2: Yes, right, exactly, And that is exhausting. Managing all of
Speaker 2: that is hard, and that's not high quality social interaction.
Speaker 2: It can be fun. You're around all the other people
Speaker 2: you love, and so it certainly can be fun. But
Speaker 2: anyway that that's one thing to just okay. So there's that,
Speaker 2: But there is the part about why don't we learn right?
Speaker 2: So my explanation that I gave to you earlier was
Speaker 2: that we missed the opportunities to learn right that you know,
Speaker 2: if I think it's going to be unpleasant, you know,
Speaker 2: I won't do it again. But but then there are
Speaker 2: experiences like yours, which I've had two yes, and and
Speaker 2: it predicts that if you gave people the experiences, they
Speaker 2: would learn, and we find that they do learn.
Speaker 3: Okay, So what.
Speaker 2: We find so when this this is a new paper
Speaker 2: that stav A. Tear and I. She's a professor at
Speaker 2: the University Wisconsin Madison, a paper we just published where
Speaker 2: we thought, well, aha, look if we have people have
Speaker 2: the conversation, then they will learn. They'll update slowly because
Speaker 2: it's just one conversation. You know, you've had a thousand
Speaker 2: and these just one. But we did we found something
Speaker 2: we did not really expect. Immediately after having a conversation.
Speaker 2: We asked people to predict how much will you enjoy
Speaker 2: having another conversation like with this this with the stranger
Speaker 2: two weeks from now? Right, Like, so, so your husband
Speaker 2: saying we just went to this party, Hey we got
Speaker 2: another one two weeks from now. Do you want to go?
Speaker 2: At that moment, you're likely to say, yeah, that'll be great.
Speaker 2: So after right after a conversation, what is right on
Speaker 2: your mind? Right? People think they they learn completely. You
Speaker 2: think the next one is going to be as good
Speaker 2: as this last one? Yeah, sign me up. When are
Speaker 2: we not bringing you back? Two weeks later, it's as
Speaker 2: if the former conversation never happened, like.
Speaker 3: And so we were backed baseline.
Speaker 2: Exactly, you revert back to this baseline pessimism, just like
Speaker 2: as if you'd never had the conversation.
Speaker 3: And fascinating.
Speaker 2: And I have to say that this is a puzzle
Speaker 2: we don't have self. We have a little bit of
Speaker 2: a bit of it, I think figured out. When we
Speaker 2: ask people to look back and recall their conversation from
Speaker 2: two weeks ago, they recall it being a little less
Speaker 2: positive two weeks out than it was at the time. Interesting,
Speaker 2: So there's a little bit of memory decay, right, that
Speaker 2: was good. If it gets a little fuzzy, it's likely
Speaker 2: to deflate just towards some more modern estimate, and it
Speaker 2: deflates a little bit. But even with that, people still
Speaker 2: think the next conversation is going to be worse than
Speaker 2: they recalled the last conversation being. And I do not
Speaker 2: have an explanation for that yet.
Speaker 1: Okay, so after a really fun social experience for me,
Speaker 1: that's when my husband she should go home ready for
Speaker 1: the kill.
Speaker 3: Like exactly, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: I got this contract for you, maya. Yeah, here's the d.
Speaker 1: We're going to go to a wedding in June for
Speaker 1: my old friend from high school. Okay, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: have to say yes to all of them.
Speaker 2: I'm buying the tickets right now, exactly. That's what I'm
Speaker 2: going to do. Not fundable, exactly, that's it.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad to know that my experience is more
Speaker 1: universal of the for sure, this negativity around it not lasting.
Speaker 2: Sure. So to really put this into practice, we have
Speaker 2: to feel these effects. You can't think your way into
Speaker 2: feeling different. You've got to go out and try the
Speaker 2: thing and feel it, and then you'll start to think
Speaker 2: differently about it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: There's a quote in your book where you say, fearing
Speaker 1: the worst in others means never giving yourself the chance
Speaker 1: to learn what others are like at their best, which
Speaker 1: I think is so beautifully said. One of the concepts
Speaker 1: that I've explored a lot actually in my book, the
Speaker 1: other side of change is moral beauty, and how moments
Speaker 1: in which we allow in other people's extraordinary actions or behaviors,
Speaker 1: whether it's their kindness or courage, or self sacrifice or
Speaker 1: resilience or fortitude, can crack open our imagination about what
Speaker 1: humans are capable of and what we're capable of, and
Speaker 1: it just lifts your spirits to witness that. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's my favorite form of awe is all in the
Speaker 1: form of other people's behaviors. And I can think of
Speaker 1: many instances in which engaging with the stranger gave me
Speaker 1: that boost, that moral elevation, that warmth in my chest,
Speaker 1: fuzzy feeling, even just in the last six months, and
Speaker 1: it's sometimes as small as you know, we had a
Speaker 1: flight delay and the flight attendant started singing a song
Speaker 1: like don't Worry Happy or something like that.
Speaker 3: It was so sweet.
Speaker 1: We were all just like together as a group, kind
Speaker 1: of fanning together in this moment of light stress, or
Speaker 1: someone just being really kind to you, or like the
Speaker 1: barista knowing your coffee order and caring about you and
Speaker 1: not needing to be asked. Like in a world where
Speaker 1: we're doom scrolling and then we're turning on the TV
Speaker 1: and it's just every piece of news that gets through
Speaker 1: the filter is more or less negative. It is really
Speaker 1: wonderful to ground yourself in everyday interactions that remind you
Speaker 1: that humans can be very good.
Speaker 2: Right right. I think that's I think that's very profound.
Speaker 2: We have not studied that in our research, but almost
Speaker 2: every collaborator I have ever had has wanted to study
Speaker 2: that in some sort of way, because you definitely feel it.
Speaker 2: You have an interaction with a single person that goes
Speaker 2: really well, that's really powerful, which just kind of it's
Speaker 2: uplifting in a bigger sense, in the kind of you know,
Speaker 2: awe sense the Dack or Keltner.
Speaker 3: Exactly like wonder vastness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And we don't just have to be on
Speaker 1: the receiving end of moral beauty. We can be moral
Speaker 1: beauty for someone else.
Speaker 3: We can be that.
Speaker 1: So many of us are feeling helpless, like how can
Speaker 1: we contribute in this dark world and during these dark times?
Speaker 1: And one way to do that is to exhibit the
Speaker 1: kinds of behaviors that can inspire someone else and can
Speaker 1: leave that lingering, lasting effect on them.
Speaker 2: And one thing that I think is really interesting about
Speaker 2: this is we consistently find that when it comes to
Speaker 2: things like random acts of kindness for somebody, or sending
Speaker 2: somebody a compliment, or expressing gratitude, or being honest and
Speaker 2: helpful to somebody else, people underestimate the positive impact they
Speaker 2: have on somebody else. This thing that seems small to
Speaker 2: you can be really really big to somebody else, because
Speaker 2: people tend to expect that another person's response to something
Speaker 2: you do for them will be commensurate with kind of
Speaker 2: the amount that you put into it. So if I
Speaker 2: do a little thing for you, right, I just compliment
Speaker 2: you on that. Yeah, it's just you know, it's a
Speaker 2: little thing, So there'll be a little response. Right, It'll
Speaker 2: give you a nice compliment on something. Right, it just
Speaker 2: be a little thing. But people's response to those pro
Speaker 2: social acts tends to be highly insensitive to the magnitude
Speaker 2: of the act. And so what that means is that,
Speaker 2: like you're going to think about this in economist terms,
Speaker 2: the biggest turn on your investments are the small things.
Speaker 2: Keeping the eye out for the little things you can
Speaker 2: do for other people routinely. That just spreads a lot
Speaker 2: more joy than you might think you would. And that's
Speaker 2: something you can do a lot. You just got a
Speaker 2: lot more power than you think you do. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love focusing on the outsized, disproportionate impact of these
Speaker 1: small behaviors.
Speaker 3: And there's one other follow up question.
Speaker 1: Because I have now got a social psychology expert with me,
Speaker 1: I want to ask you one question, wasn't there some
Speaker 1: study showing that our view of broader groups is always
Speaker 1: less positive than the immediate group in which we work. So,
Speaker 1: for example, let's say I work in a large organization.
Speaker 1: I'll give favorable ratings for my team in terms of
Speaker 1: our culture and whatnot, But when it comes to the
Speaker 1: organization at large, I kind of other that and I say, oh, well,
Speaker 1: the group at large, you know, there's lots of dysfunction,
Speaker 1: and there's no culture, et cetera.
Speaker 2: There is some complexity to this, but when you have
Speaker 2: a negative view of the group, have significantly more positive
Speaker 2: views of all of the individuals.
Speaker 3: Within within it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Because I was thinking, when it comes to our
Speaker 1: view of humanity, right, and how that moral elevation experience
Speaker 1: has such an outsized, awe inspiring impact on us, it's because, well,
Speaker 1: when I think about my smaller community, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's filled with great people, right, great loving people. But
Speaker 1: when I think about humanity at large, I'm like, oh gosh,
Speaker 1: there's so much negativity. There's so much darkness in that space.
Speaker 1: When I meet the stranger in the coffee shop or
Speaker 1: on the train, or when I'm walking down the Street.
Speaker 1: In many ways, they're a stand in for humanity. They
Speaker 1: help me construct a more verritical representation of what all
Speaker 1: the other humans are like. That are just to blur
Speaker 1: in my brain, because I don't actually have any discrete
Speaker 1: examples of who they are what they might be like.
Speaker 2: Maya, we should have kept you in academia, That's what
Speaker 2: we should have done. We should have kept you on
Speaker 2: the faculty somewhere, because this is can we think about
Speaker 2: ideas that we could test? We have not tested this
Speaker 2: particular thing. Do you generalize from the stranger to broader
Speaker 2: humanity or your view of larger groups more readily than
Speaker 2: you do from say, somebody that you know. Yeah, that
Speaker 2: strikes me as a terrific hypothesis and something that feels
Speaker 2: likely to be true as well.
Speaker 3: Let me know what you find.
Speaker 1: Yeah, terrible at the details. That's why I loved academia, sir.
Speaker 2: Well, have you any acknowledgments for sure? Yes? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you liked this conversation,
Speaker 1: check out my interview with Vanessa Vaughn's on social influence
Speaker 1: and how to wield it. Wisely, we'll leave a link
Speaker 1: to the episode along with link to Nick's new book
Speaker 1: in the show notes, and don't forget to share this
Speaker 1: episode with a friend who might enjoy it. We'll be
Speaker 1: back in a week with another episode of A Slight
Speaker 1: Change of Plans.
Speaker 3: I'll see you then. A Slight Change of Plans.
Speaker 1: Is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Schunker.
Speaker 1: The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Alexander Garatin, our
Speaker 1: editor Daphne Chen, our lead producer Megan Lubin, our associate
Speaker 1: producer Sonia Gerwitt, and our sound engineer Erica Huang. Luis
Speaker 1: Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped
Speaker 1: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries, So big thanks to everyone there,
Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
Speaker 2: But the other thing is that conversation interaction reaching out
Speaker 2: really is a skill, and it really is something you
Speaker 2: can learn to do better. I feel like I have
Speaker 2: gotten a lot better at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you're a liability, Nick to your wife poor.
Speaker 1: I feel for her. You go out there, you get
Speaker 1: invited to Thanksgiving dinners by other random people, and she's like, Nick,
Speaker 1: what have you gotten us?
Speaker 3: Into chill out. There is chill out man.
Speaker 2: That is, I have to say, an occupational hazard.