1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio Happy Friday. I'm Tracy Vie Wilson 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Fry. But here's a little behind the scenes, 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: behind the scenes, behind the behind the scenes, behind the 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. As we are recording this three part 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: episode on Jim Thorpe, we have some unresolved scheduling questions 7 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: about how the episodes are going to fall across two weeks. So, um, 8 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: we are Normally we would be like, ah, this is this, 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: this is the ones that happened on Monday and Wednesday, 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,919 Speaker 1: but we're not actually sure. It's a mystery at this 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: moment in time. Bump bump bum. So I I have 12 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: had Jim Thorpe on my list for an episode for 13 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: a really, really long time. I might have had him 14 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: on my list actually before the two parter that we 15 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: did on The fort Show Indian Schoolgirls basketball Team back 16 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: in I think that was he definitely moved up the 17 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: list as I was doing the research for that episode, 18 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: because that is what I first learned about, um, all 19 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: the all the stuff that Carlisle was doing to win 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: football games that would later get written out of being 21 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: within the scope of the rules, because there are just 22 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 1: really was stuff that they were doing that fell under 23 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 1: the umbrella of well, it's not against the rules. Specifically, 24 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: nothing in the rule book says we can't shove the 25 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: ball under somebody's jersey, right. I feel like I would 26 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: have been better at sports and stuff like that. We're 27 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: an option for me, yeah, yeah, um, yeah, the the whole. 28 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: I don't know that I would have it in me 29 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: to to do this as an actual episode because that, 30 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: as I referenced way back in that that episode on 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: the fort shot Indian School girls basketball team, like, I 32 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: don't follow sports. I don't follow any sports. I don't 33 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: understand football. I think I even said in that episode, 34 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: like I don't know what the first down line means. 35 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: And people have tried to explain the first down line 36 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: to me, and it just it's just like it just 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: falls directly out of my mind and I'm like, really, 38 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: just told me how it works. I still don't understand 39 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: so um, and that comes from having watched many years 40 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: of football games as a member of the high school 41 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: marching band. So I don't think I could really wrap 42 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: my head around an episode on like the years of 43 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: of evolution of of gridiron football rules, but it did 44 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 1: go through phases where it was like, wow, these rules 45 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: are injuring players to the point of death. We gotta 46 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: fix that. Like that was a whole thread in part 47 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: of that trajectory. Yeah, I'm not a big football person. 48 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: My my very best friend is big into football all 49 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: and it kind of becomes that thing where I like, 50 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: not in support her, but I don't really know what 51 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: she's talking about. Most of the time. I understand the 52 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: rules of football, but it's just never been my game. 53 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: More of a hockey person. But it is fascinating I 54 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: had not realized until you had mentioned it a while back, 55 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: like how some of these cockamami plays worked in an 56 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: effort to gain an edge. I feel like today because 57 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: we did grow up in such a time when the 58 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: rules were already pretty well established and regulated. Right, there 59 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: haven't been a lot of changes to football rules in 60 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: our in our lifetimes. Like I was so raised in 61 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: that whole like if you cheat, you're just cheating yourself 62 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: and you have to play straight and fair, and like 63 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: I'm like, I wonder if they ever did that. Like, yes, 64 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: we got the advantage out of this, but it feels 65 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: sneaky and not necessarily honorable. Well, and it that's really 66 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: interesting to think about because one of the things that 67 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: really clear about Jim Thorpe as like his father really 68 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: raised his sons. Um I don't I have I know 69 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: nothing about his relationship with his daughters whatsoever, but in 70 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: terms of his sons, like he really raised them with 71 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: a love of sports and a love of play, and 72 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: a love of being fair and a sense that like 73 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: in your games, you your behavior was sporting, you didn't 74 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: do things that were unfair or illegal. And so I 75 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: wonder how that messed with like Carlisle's trick plays while 76 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: he was on that football team. I don't actually know, Yeah, 77 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's worth noting. Right, obviously, the 78 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: stakes of college football today are very different than they 79 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: would have been then. So even though they did take 80 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: it seriously in terms of wanting to be the best, 81 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: it wasn't quite the same. I feel like there was 82 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: more of a sense of play. And that's mentioned in 83 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: in these players wanting to play literally in the sense 84 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: of like playfulness rather than necessarily being like a driven 85 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: like this is how we bring you know, money into 86 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: the school. Even though that was part of it, not 87 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 1: that the same level we're dealing with today in college sports, 88 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: right right, So it may have felt a little less 89 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: problematic because of that. Yeah. Yeah, so I am very 90 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: excited to be sharing three parts on Jim Thorpe. Um. 91 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: As I said at the top of the episode, that 92 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: is not what I thought was going to happen when 93 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: I sat down to turn my notes into an actual outline. Uh. 94 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: And then I think it's like six PM or something, 95 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: I sent you this note that was like, I have 96 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: basically a one long ish but okay length part one, 97 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: and then a part two that was literally twice as long. 98 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: I got to figure out how to do this. Yeah. 99 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: In the second part of our three part episode on 100 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: Jim Thorpe talked about the twelve Summer Olympic Games, at 101 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: which he was amazing. Uh, and then about how the 102 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: A a U and the IOC took his medals away, 103 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: which made me so angry. Yes, it was a piece 104 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: of the story I knew was going to happen. It 105 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: was like, it was not something that I was surprised 106 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: to learn or anything like that. What did surprise me though, 107 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: was I had taken all these notes for these episodes, 108 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: and then I started working them into the actual outline 109 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: to use for the episodes instead of just like half 110 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: sentences that don't connect to each other. And when I 111 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: got to this part, I got so angry and I 112 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: was like, wow, I already knew this was coming. I 113 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: took notes about it, I read all the things I 114 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: knew about it before, but wow, I'm just livid at 115 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: this moment. And then when we were recording the episode 116 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: just now, we got to the part when we were 117 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: just about to go into the sponsor break leading into 118 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: the discussion of taking away his Olympic medals um, and 119 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: I just I got really visc early angry, and I 120 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: was like, Wow, this is apparently the thing that I 121 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: am furious about today. There's a lot in these episodes 122 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: to be furious about. To be clear, this early grabbed 123 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: me today. Uh tempering that that visceral anger for me 124 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: is a memory that this jogged of my mother, who was, 125 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: I want to be charitable, a bit of a panicky 126 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: person who would kind of like take a bit of 127 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: information and gallop away with it thinking she had grasped 128 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: the full thing and may or may not have, but 129 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: I remember her invoking Jim Thorpe a lot when I 130 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: was a kid, or when anyone else, uh, you know, 131 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: when I did something or anyone else did something. Here's 132 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: where it came up once and I just remember being like, 133 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: huh um, I uh did a lot of stuff with 134 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: drama in high school. I'm majored in theater and film 135 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: study in college as well as English. But there was 136 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: a point where another high school had hired me, I think, 137 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: to do stage makeup for them for one of their plays, 138 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: and my mom flipped out, and I mean, like we're 139 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: talking like twenty bucks. It was next to nothing even then, 140 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: and it was one of those things where she's like, 141 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: you will never get a college scholarship for theater if 142 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: you do this because Jim Thorpe and like she just 143 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: like piled some things together that made her very panicky 144 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: that I should never do any side hustle growing up, 145 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: which you know I was doing all the time, because 146 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: it would somehow come back to bite me in this way. 147 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: So I don't know if this was a story that 148 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: got told in her family a lot growing up or what, 149 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: but she would literally invoke this. It's like a reason 150 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: to never accept money for doing anything if you thought 151 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: you ever wanted a scholarship. I remember being like you know, 152 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: in in uh classroom assignments to like debate or to 153 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: write a paper on a subject like I remember this 154 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: subject of what counts as an amateur athlete being like 155 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: thrown out as a topic a lot. Yes, um, And 156 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: it was a lot of these same questions of like, 157 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: if you get a full ride to go to college, 158 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: does that are you a professional athlete? You know? Then 159 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: that folds into all kinds of other things about how 160 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: much money colleges make off of their athletes and whether 161 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: those athletes are being appropriately compensated for any of that, 162 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: like the whole huge thing. Um. But yeah, it's uh, 163 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: it was part of just a whole big discussion of 164 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: being like, you know, if you say this, if you 165 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: say you can't, you can't be paid fifteen dollars of 166 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: meal muddy a week in a totally different sport three 167 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: years before, like you're putting big emits on who can 168 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: compete in the Olympics, Like right, Well, and it becomes 169 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,719 Speaker 1: that thing of in my head, is this just the 170 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: semantics issue? Like if they had just said this is 171 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: your per diem, would all of that have not been 172 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: a problem. Well, and there's also the idea of like 173 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,719 Speaker 1: amateur is that that's made up. It's made up, made 174 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: up definitions and made up idea. Uh, it's you know, 175 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: I get the fact that it's so connected to the 176 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: International Olympic movement, but it's like also a term that 177 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: people created to you know, apply to a specific thing 178 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: that then was just enforced so differently for different players, 179 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: especially in this story. Um, the the IOC and the 180 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: a AU did not buy this argument of there were 181 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: a lot of other people doing it who were doing 182 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: it under pseudonyms, which which Thorpe was using his own name, 183 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: so he was he was not disguising his identity. Um, 184 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: like a lot of other people were getting away with it. 185 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: And I totally see the argument of like just because 186 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: everybody else is doing it doesn't make it okay. But 187 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: then it's like, but everybody else is not being held 188 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: accountable for it, only Jim Thorpe. So yeah, there's more 189 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: on this in Part three. Stuff You Missed in History 190 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: Class is a production of I Heart Radio. For more 191 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 192 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.