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Speaker 1: Palenteer is here to disrupt and make are the institutions

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Speaker 1: we partner with the very best in the world, and

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Speaker 1: when it's necessary to scare enemies and on occasion kill them.

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Speaker 2: That was a recording from twenty twenty four of Alex Karp,

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Speaker 2: who's the CEO of a tech company called Palenteer, And

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Speaker 2: we'll come back to that clip later. But just who

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Speaker 2: are these enemies that his company wants to scare and

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Speaker 2: on occasion killed, and also what are the institutions that

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Speaker 2: Palenteer is partnering with to make that happen. That last

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Speaker 2: question has a lot of answers, but the most infamous

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Speaker 2: one right now would be Immigration and Customs Enforcement better

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Speaker 2: known as ICE.

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Speaker 3: ICE has a lot of new toys under the recent

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Speaker 3: Trump administration, but the biggest tools that I've been paying

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Speaker 3: attention to is how Polunteer is working with ICE in

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Speaker 3: the federal government to create new apps and systems to

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Speaker 3: track people.

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Speaker 2: Mechanic Kelly is a senior politics writer Wired, and recently

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Speaker 2: she's been reporting on ICE's activity and in particular how

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Speaker 2: it's being powered by technology from Palenteer.

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Speaker 3: So there's the work itself that Palenteer is doing and

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Speaker 3: then the pressure inside among people who maybe work on

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Speaker 3: defense contracts or work on more commercial things that are like, oh,

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Speaker 3: the tool I'm building is doing this too, I don't

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Speaker 3: like this, and like demanding more information.

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Speaker 2: Pallunteer has been around since the early two thousands, and

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Speaker 2: they used to keep their work pretty quiet, but they're

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Speaker 2: starting to flex a lot more publicly. Still, most people

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Speaker 2: don't know what they actually do, even inside the company.

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Speaker 2: Their own employees seem to not always know what's actually

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Speaker 2: going on.

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Speaker 3: Palenter is such a secretive company to begin with, but

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Speaker 3: the ice work has been, you know, an additional layer

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Speaker 3: of secrecy as well.

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Speaker 2: So that's what this episode about some of them. Mckennon's

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Speaker 2: new reporting and Wired has revealed more about Palenteers than

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Speaker 2: we ever knew before. I'm afraid Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcast.

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Speaker 2: This is kill Switch. I'm Dexter Thomas.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, goodbye.

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Speaker 2: I think it's only recently that some of the wider

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Speaker 2: public has become even aware of the company Palatier, specifically

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Speaker 2: in connection to ice rays and things like that. What

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Speaker 2: even is Palatier?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Palaenteer. If you're unfamiliar with the company, you might

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Speaker 3: be familiar with the name because if you can remember

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Speaker 3: the pal ANDEERI and the Lord of the Rings is

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Speaker 3: a ball and all seeing eye that actually in the

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Speaker 3: end corrupts the people who use it. Interesting tie in there,

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Speaker 3: but it's a company founded by Peter Teel and this

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Speaker 3: guy named Joe Lonsdale. There are these kind of more

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Speaker 3: right wing figures in Silicon Valley, and the company was

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Speaker 3: founded in the two thousands during the Bush administration and

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Speaker 3: kind of the expansion of the surveillance state that we saw,

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Speaker 3: you know, during the Iraq War and the creation of

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Speaker 3: homeland security. It kind of comes of this period, and

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Speaker 3: so Palentnteer has been working with government for a very

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Speaker 3: long time, but then also working in the commercial space

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: Peter Thiel has said that his concept for Palenteer was

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Speaker 2: to see if he could use paypals fraud detection software

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Speaker 2: to stop terrorist attacks. It took a while to really

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Speaker 2: get off the ground, but Palenteer got themselves a contract

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Speaker 2: with the US Department of Defense and they've been working

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Speaker 2: with the US Army since two thousand and eight. Some

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Speaker 2: of that work is public. For example, they've announced that

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Speaker 2: they developed drone navigation systems for the military, but a

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Speaker 2: lot about the company is kept secret. If you Google

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Speaker 2: or you search for Palaenteer, there's not a whole lot

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Speaker 2: of information. If you look at their YouTube account, for example,

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Speaker 2: their YouTube channel description just says software that dominates. I

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Speaker 2: don't know what I'm supposed to take from that, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: what do they do?

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Speaker 3: That is such a mystery to so many people. But

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Speaker 3: a lot of what Palunteer creates for customers is based

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Speaker 3: off of what it calls its foundry software, which is

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Speaker 3: kind of an extra powerful database that you can run

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Speaker 3: specific programs on top of and is able essentially to

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Speaker 3: combine data sources from a whole variety of different places

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Speaker 3: and help people sort and search through them more effectively.

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Speaker 3: And so we can see why, you know, an agency

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Speaker 3: like ICE would want something like that, trying to find

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Speaker 3: information about addresses of people potential undocumented immigrants, where they

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Speaker 3: are located, they're family members. And so what Palenteer does

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Speaker 3: really well and why we see it expanding across government

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Speaker 3: but also in the commercial sector as well, is that

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Speaker 3: it's able to connect to a lot of things sort them,

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Speaker 3: and that's really the power.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen it said that when somebody hires Palenteer,

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Speaker 2: contracts Palateer. It's not like they're buying a tool, it's

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Speaker 2: like they incorporate Palenteer into the DNA of that organization.

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Speaker 2: Does that sound like a good characterization of how it works.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Palenteer is one of the first companies to come

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Speaker 3: up with the idea of what is now kind of

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Speaker 3: moving its way across the industry as the forward deploy

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Speaker 3: Engineer the FD, and that is a role where they

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Speaker 3: have a team of engineers who often are younger on

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Speaker 3: the younger side, coming out of college, and they place

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Speaker 3: them with clients, so say ICE or a hospital system

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Speaker 3: or something like that, and so they give them the tool,

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Speaker 3: the Foundry tool, but then they also provide them with

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Speaker 3: the labor and the expertise with the folks who are

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Speaker 3: trained in it to say, you have this issue, here's

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Speaker 3: how we can solve it and build, you know, a

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Speaker 3: program on top of Foundry or edit Foundry in a

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Speaker 3: specific way to make whatever job you're doing, you know,

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Speaker 3: make it easier and simplify it for you. And that's

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Speaker 3: really the power in the company and why people buy it.

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Speaker 3: The tool is kind of a basic database sorting data

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Speaker 3: storage system, but it's having that expertise which can be

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Speaker 3: in house that makes it so powerful in the end.

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Speaker 2: Right. So, I know, last April, Yellow Wired reports on

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Speaker 2: a thirty million dollar contract by ICE to Palenteer. First off,

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Speaker 2: that's a lot of money, but what does this contract entail?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was the beginning of something called Immigration

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Speaker 3: OS OS of course standing for operating.

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Speaker 2: System Okay, yeah, like windows or macrows okay exactly.

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Speaker 3: And so immigration OS to me reads more like an

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Speaker 3: ecosystem that Palenteer is creating for ICE and DHS, and

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Speaker 3: in that ecosystem are a variety of tools. The first

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Speaker 3: one that we really kind of had more of an

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Speaker 3: idea of was its kind of logistics and tracking arm

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Speaker 3: of this ecosystem, which was focused on tracking self deportations.

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Speaker 3: So the beginning of the administration, there was a push

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Speaker 3: for this, like new app that came out called CBP Home,

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Speaker 3: so Customs and Border Patrol Home, which allows people living

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Speaker 3: within the borders who are undocumented to say, hey, I'll

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Speaker 3: leave and they'll self deport And so Palateer was brought

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Speaker 3: in to help track those self deportations. And so that

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Speaker 3: work has kind of grown into the bigger kind of

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Speaker 3: ecosystem project that we're starting to pull more details out

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Speaker 3: of now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the concept of something called immigration OS is Yeah,

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Speaker 2: first off, kind of nuts to me.

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Speaker 3: Also just sounds so Palenteer when you think about it,

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Speaker 3: what do you mean. It's so you have a problem immigration,

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Speaker 3: Here is the software to fix it. Right. It just

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Speaker 3: feels like so on par with how they market themselves.

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Speaker 3: And so what we've seen from that original kind of

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Speaker 3: self deportation function is what they've been doing on more

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Speaker 3: targeted tracking.

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Speaker 2: According to Wired's reporting, immigration OS involves three core functions. First,

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Speaker 2: there's the self deportation tracking that McKinnon just mentioned, and

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Speaker 2: then there's targeting and enforcement prioritization. That one is supposed

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Speaker 2: to streamline the quote selection and apprehension operations of illegal aliens.

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Speaker 2: And lastly, there's something called immigration life cycle Process, which

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Speaker 2: is basically making what they call deportation logistics more efficient.

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Speaker 2: So what exactly is the technology that's making this immigration

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Speaker 2: OS work, Well, we don't know, but we do know

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Speaker 2: that Palenteer has helped ICE build out databases of information

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Speaker 2: to help track down undocumented people in the US. So

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Speaker 2: there's a database I think called Investigative Case Management that

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Speaker 2: I think Palenteer created this, ICE is using it. What

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Speaker 2: do we know about this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we don't know a lot about it.

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Speaker 3: These things are kept pretty quiet.

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Speaker 2: To me.

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Speaker 3: It kind of feels like it's just where a lot

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Speaker 3: of data is stored. When it comes to the type

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Speaker 3: of targets that ICE or DHS.

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Speaker 2: Is tracking, where do they get all this data from DHS?

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Speaker 3: From USCIS, people who enter the border oftentimes, i mean

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Speaker 3: always are required to hand over a lot of data

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Speaker 3: about themselves and that's given to DHS.

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Speaker 2: What sort of data are we talking about here?

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Speaker 3: Height, weight, Yeah, identifiable things like that, name, family, these

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Speaker 3: kinds of things. But what we've seen over the last

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Speaker 3: year is this demand for even more data than what

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Speaker 3: has been traditionally collected at the border. We've seen people

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Speaker 3: from DOJE and then also just government officials being asked

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Speaker 3: to handover data from the Socialecurity Administration so that's like

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Speaker 3: a Social Security number address anything there. And then also

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Speaker 3: the IRS. And I think the IRS is a really

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Speaker 3: important agency when it comes to connecting data because a

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Speaker 3: lot of times, even if you are an undocumented immigrant,

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Speaker 3: you file taxes, and every year when you file a

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Speaker 3: W two or whatever, tax file. The IRS often is

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Speaker 3: one of the agencies that has the most up to

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Speaker 3: date data on where you live, because you have to

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Speaker 3: file that whenever you start a new job. So I

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Speaker 3: mean for the last year, what we've seen is that

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Speaker 3: DHS thinks that the data that it has is maybe

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Speaker 3: insufficient for the mission that it has under Trump two,

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Speaker 3: and we've seen this kind of pressure for other agencies

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Speaker 3: to hand over what could be more accurate and sensitive data.

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Speaker 2: To be clear here, using data from the IRS, from

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Speaker 2: Social Security, and from other parts of the government to

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Speaker 2: track immigration is not allowed. It violates privacy rules meant

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Speaker 2: to protect taxpayer data, and yet in February, the IRS

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Speaker 2: said in the court filing that it had erroneously shared

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Speaker 2: data for thousands of taxpayers with DHS. McKinnon's article notes

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Speaker 2: that quote pulling data from outside sources, whether that be

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Speaker 2: from other agencies or commercially available third party data, would

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Speaker 2: expand DHS's ability to surveil migrants and citizens alike. Now

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Speaker 2: according to its internal wiki page, Palenteer says that it

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Speaker 2: quote does not in any way enable ICE personnel to

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Speaker 2: have direct or unfettered access to third agency databases or

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Speaker 2: data sets outside of those shared for specific operational purposes

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Speaker 2: within the bounds of established data sharing agreements, but Vallenteer

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Speaker 2: also says that quote, we do not take the position

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Speaker 2: of policing the use of our platform for every workflow.

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Speaker 2: So we don't know exactly what data ICE is using

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Speaker 2: or how they're using it. But there's a video that's

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Speaker 2: gone viral recently that appears to show an ICE officer

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Speaker 2: referencing some kind of database.

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Speaker 3: So there's a ICE agent who is taking images of

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Speaker 3: what looks like an observer's vehicle, and she asks him.

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Speaker 3: It's like, what are you doing? Why are you taking

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Speaker 3: these images?

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Speaker 2: It's not illegal to record exactly.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what we're doing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, why are you taking my information?

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Speaker 2: Dollar because we have a nice little database. Oh good,

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Speaker 2: Now you're considered domestic terrorists, so we're video tapping you.

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Speaker 3: Are you crazy?

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Speaker 2: Wired asked Palenteer if their software powered the database that

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Speaker 2: you just heard referenced in that video. Palenteer did not respond.

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Speaker 3: There has not been a lot of information that has

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Speaker 3: come out about like what that database is, who operates it,

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Speaker 3: what kind of data they're collecting, and why. Earlier in February,

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Speaker 3: there was a hearing with Home in security officials in Congress,

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Speaker 3: and one of the officials just straight ups that we

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Speaker 3: don't have this database. Okay, then why is this agent

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Speaker 3: in the field trying to collect information for it?

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Speaker 2: Finding out information about the database has proved challenging, but

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Speaker 2: McKenna and other reporters have managed to uncover some sense

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Speaker 2: of what Palenteer is developing for ICE, and the capabilities

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Speaker 2: of that go beyond anything you might expect. We'll get

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Speaker 2: into that after the break. A lot of poalunteers immigration

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Speaker 2: OS work has been kept vague, but there are some

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Speaker 2: specific tools made by Poundteer that we do know that

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Speaker 2: ICE is using. One of these is called ELITE, which

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Speaker 2: stands for Enhanced Leads, Identification and Targeting for Enforcement.

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Speaker 3: What has been kind of the most controversial thing that

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Speaker 3: Pollunteer has been doing is developing this tool called ELITE,

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Speaker 3: which is an app that I think at least a

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Speaker 3: couple hundred agents are using on the ground. Basically, it's

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Speaker 3: like any map app you have on your phone, open

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Speaker 3: it up, and then it would like instead of populating

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Speaker 3: I don't know, searching for nearby restaurants or coffee shops

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Speaker 3: like you and me probably do, it instead populates dense

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Speaker 3: areas of what they suspect to be undocumented immigrants based

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Speaker 3: on data that the agency has, so then they can

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Speaker 3: search in specific areas trying to make apprehensions. And that

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Speaker 3: is probably the most detailed that we have like that product,

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Speaker 3: specifically because of four or four Media and other reports.

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Speaker 2: Four to four Media reported on Elite earlier this year,

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Speaker 2: and it's the most information we have to date on

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Speaker 2: Palenteer's work with ICE. According to their reporting, Elite can

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Speaker 2: populate a map with potential targets for deportation. It can

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Speaker 2: even bring up a dossier for each individual and provide

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Speaker 2: a confidence score on their listed address. And this data

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Speaker 2: is pulled from sources including the Department of Health and

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Speaker 2: Human Services. But beyond all this direct work with ICE,

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Speaker 2: McKinnon is also found that Palenteers starting to work with

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Speaker 2: another immigration agency, one that handles immigration benefits for people

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Speaker 2: who immigrate lawfully US Customs and Immigration Services, or USCIS, and.

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Speaker 3: They're working with USCIS on a pilot defined fraudulent benefits

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Speaker 3: submissions from folks who are trying to become citizens in

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Speaker 3: this country. And if you'll remember from the last couple

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Speaker 3: of months, fraud has really been used as kind of

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Speaker 3: the justification for ICE searches. There was a Nick Shirley

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Speaker 3: video in Many, this right wing YouTuber knocking on doors

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Speaker 3: asking to see the children at childcare centers. And when

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Speaker 3: that video got published, it got boosted by Elon Musk,

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Speaker 3: it got boosted by Jade Bans, it got boosted by

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Speaker 3: so many people, and then just like a week and

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Speaker 3: a half, two weeks later, thousands of ICE ations in Minneapolis.

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Speaker 2: And we know exactly what happened after that exactly.

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Speaker 3: And so now it seems at least Palenteer is trying

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Speaker 3: to get into that fraud part of immigration as well,

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Speaker 3: which is a wild thing to be, you know, having

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Speaker 3: to compare on my head right now, because those things

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Speaker 3: are should be totally separate things that when I talked

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Speaker 3: to a senior White House official about this earlier about

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Speaker 3: how like fraud and immigration are cussed together, what they

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Speaker 3: told me was, well, if they are illegals, they're going

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Speaker 3: to get deported. If illegals are during fraud, they're getting deported.

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Speaker 3: And that's kind of the thinking from the higher levels

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Speaker 3: of the White House.

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Speaker 2: At least Palenteer has their hands in a lot of

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Speaker 2: different aspects of the government and their involvement only seems

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Speaker 2: to be growing. According to reporting from the Hill, in

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Speaker 2: the last year alone, they got over nine hundred million

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Speaker 2: dollars in federal contracts.

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Speaker 3: From my reporting recently, it does seem that Palnteer is

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Speaker 3: eager to expand those contracts. These past couple months have

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Speaker 3: been primarily what the company has referred to as pilot

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Speaker 3: periods to kind of test out how the relationship works,

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Speaker 3: what tools they're able to do, and if the administration

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Speaker 3: wants to expand those contracts later on. And so right

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Speaker 3: now we're kind of coming towards the end of this

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Speaker 3: pilot period and we'll get to see whether or not

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Speaker 3: Palunteer is renewed for another contract or their power gets

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Speaker 3: expanded in the government.

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Speaker 2: What is the sense right now? Is this going to

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Speaker 2: be renewed? Are they going to get more money for this?

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Speaker 3: I think so it seems like the company is really eager,

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Speaker 3: and it seems to be from court documents that we've

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Speaker 3: seen about ICE agents using this, it's been a valuable

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Speaker 3: tool for them and it's been, you know, such a

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Speaker 3: priority amongst senior leadership. A Palateer. We saw CEO Alex

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Speaker 3: Karp at the Deal Books some New York Times deal

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Speaker 3: boks some at last year, who's like, we're going to

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Speaker 3: do this work. You know, it's part of us in

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Speaker 3: building Western power, and all this kind of you know,

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Speaker 3: often intra level to philosophy course thinking that Alex carp

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Speaker 3: always is like talking about in public.

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Speaker 6: I do believe that, you know, America and strong individuals,

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Speaker 6: realistic individuals recognize you are largely on your own. And

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Speaker 6: the more you recognize that, the better we will be

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Speaker 6: as a society.

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Speaker 2: In the world.

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Speaker 6: And that's why I'm very skeptical of like all these

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Speaker 6: like you know, international whatever. It's all a way of

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Speaker 6: curtailing and constraining the obvious fact that some cultures are superior.

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Speaker 6: We live in the superior culture, as culture that defends

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Speaker 6: our right to argue, defends our right to back that

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Speaker 6: up with arms, defends our right to privacy. So the

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Speaker 6: first second and fourth Amendment, I believe Palentier and I

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Speaker 6: are fully aligned with the first second and fourth Amendment.

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Speaker 6: We are fighting for what we believe, and we're putting

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Speaker 6: in a product to give the people that agree with

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Speaker 6: us a superior position.

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Speaker 3: But that's like part of the vision of the company, right,

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Speaker 3: and he sees immigration enforcement as that kind of building

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Speaker 3: and maintaining Western power. However, he kind of vaguely defines it.

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Speaker 6: I care about two issues.

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Speaker 7: I care about immigration and re establishing the deterrent capacity

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Speaker 7: of America without being a colonious neocon view. And on

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Speaker 7: those two issues, those two issues, this president has performed

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Speaker 7: and those are the two issues I care about.

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Speaker 2: Again, that's Pallenteer CEO Alex Karp at the Deal Book Summit,

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Speaker 2: defending why he's supportive of Trump, but he didn't always

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Speaker 2: feel that way.

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Speaker 5: I've had the rare opportunity to meet Trump.

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Speaker 2: Here he is in a recorded staff meeting back in

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Speaker 2: twenty fifteen that leaked to BuzzFeed a couple years later.

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Speaker 5: Which I turned down, like I don't I mean, this

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Speaker 5: is off the record, but like I don't respect, Like

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Speaker 5: I respect nothing about the dude. Like you could almost

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Speaker 5: make up someone that I find I know, it is

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Speaker 5: hard to make up someone I find less appealing.

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Speaker 2: In that same video, Alex Karp said that Trump's deportation

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Speaker 2: plan quote makes no sense and quote is bringing up

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Speaker 2: the worst the society can bring up. But that was then.

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Speaker 2: Things have obviously.

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Speaker 3: Changed recently, Alex Carp did a pre recorded conversation. It

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Speaker 3: was on a Friday in early February, and in that call,

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Speaker 3: Karp says that they're really not in the business of

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Speaker 3: changing their policies per each administration. And then he kind

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Speaker 3: of harkens back to this speech that Obama made in

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Speaker 3: like twenty fourteen where he says, we are a nation

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Speaker 3: of immigrants, and we're also a nation of laws. And

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Speaker 3: so to Palenteer, or at least senior leadership ap Palenteer,

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Speaker 3: what they do is a function of helping enforce laws

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Speaker 3: on the books. And I think their understanding, right is

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Speaker 3: that we are part of the good guys here removing

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Speaker 3: criminals from our country. That's how senior leadership often sees it,

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Speaker 3: but I don't know if that's you know, how everyone

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Speaker 3: at least in the company sees it.

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Speaker 2: After the break, Palenteers employees start asking questions about what

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Speaker 2: it is exactly they're doing, and the company's slack channel

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Speaker 2: starts getting heated. As the presence of ICE is intensified

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Speaker 2: over the past several months. Inside Palenteer, employees are starting

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Speaker 2: to question their company's involvement, and apparently when it comes

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Speaker 2: to what Palenteer is actually doing, with ice. These employees

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Speaker 2: know almost as little as the public does.

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Speaker 3: Right now, just from the recording that I've done so far,

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Speaker 3: there's been a little bit more internal pressure from workers

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Speaker 3: at the company who are concerned about these capabilities and

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Speaker 3: want more information and the transparency within the company. Right

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Speaker 3: for people who work for Alanteer, has it been great?

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Speaker 3: Like from workers that I've spoken to, they really only

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Speaker 3: found out information about what the company is doing with

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Speaker 3: ice by public reporting. Really yeah, And recently in the

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Speaker 3: call that I was referencing earlier, Karp at the end

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Speaker 3: he kind of says, if you want more intimate details

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Speaker 3: on what we're doing, you'll need to sign an NDA

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Speaker 3: and then we're happy to share them with you. So

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Speaker 3: that's kind of the level that this information is being

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Speaker 3: withheld inside the company, and there's been more and more

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Speaker 3: pressure amongst workers for a little bit more information. All

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Speaker 3: this kind of blew up after the tragic shooting and

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Speaker 3: killing of Alex Pretty in January. Where as soon as

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Speaker 3: we started saying white Americans getting shot in the streets,

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Speaker 3: the company internally kind of blew up and we're like,

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Speaker 3: are we involved with this? Like how are we involved?

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Speaker 3: Like can we do anything.

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Speaker 2: To stop this. Alex Pretty's death seemed to be a

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Speaker 2: turning point for a lot of employees palants here. Immediately afterwards,

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Speaker 2: their internal slack blew up with messages from around the organization.

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Speaker 3: It seems like there had been some kind of discussions

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Speaker 3: happening in these channels prior, but that had really kind

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Speaker 3: of lit up on the day Alex Pretty was killed.

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Speaker 3: So you know what we're seeing immediately in these slack

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Speaker 3: channels and people chatting as there's like one person specifically

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Speaker 3: saying that the involvement with ice has been swept under

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Speaker 3: the rug under this current administration and there need and

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Speaker 3: better understanding of the involvement. And then someone says that

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Speaker 3: they've seen stories of folks rounded up who were seeking

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Speaker 3: asylum with no order to leave the country, no criminal record,

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Speaker 3: and consistently checked in with authorities, no reason to be

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Speaker 3: rounded up. And this is like how opaque the company

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Speaker 3: has even been to its own workers, that a worker

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Speaker 3: can see something like this happening, and then they're asking

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Speaker 3: the question here in this chat and saying, surely we

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Speaker 3: aren't helping to do that. So that's kind of how

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Speaker 3: opaque and how kind of like big of a boogeyman

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Speaker 3: Palneer has become in this space, right, because even internally

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Speaker 3: at this point, workers are associating anything that happens from

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Speaker 3: ICE with possibly something that their own employer, their colleagues,

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Speaker 3: you know, maybe in some other department, are working on.

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Speaker 3: You know, people ask more detailed questions too about how

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Speaker 3: Foundry Palenteers kind of premiere software is used, and asking

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Speaker 3: you know, we're here, we have our team of folks

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Speaker 3: who are working on this with ICE, right, and we

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Speaker 3: kind of have a contract and we have stipulations on

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Speaker 3: how the product is supposed to be used. But is

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Speaker 3: there anything that we can do to police bad behavior?

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Speaker 3: What if they decided to take data from IRS or

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Speaker 3: data from SSA and put it into Foundry. You know,

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Speaker 3: the workers are basically saying, we work really hard to

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Speaker 3: empower clients to make as many changes as possible to

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Speaker 3: the software to fit what it is that they want

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Speaker 3: to do. Well, what if fixing it is illegal, you know,

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Speaker 3: and empowers these kind of illegal apprehensions killings? Is there

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Speaker 3: anything we can do? And one of the members of

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Speaker 3: kind of senior executive leadership responds and is like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we kind of just have to rely on the courts

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Speaker 3: in this case, there really isn't a lot of stuff

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Speaker 3: that we can do.

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Speaker 2: So you mean, like, well, we gave them this tool.

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Speaker 2: If they decide to use it for some illegal purpose,

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Speaker 2: that's kind of on them. We sold them the tool,

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Speaker 2: that's it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's been some discussion on that and like kind

437
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 3: of being like, well, this is something that the courts

438
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 3: would have to figure out and they would just have

439
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 3: to play out in that way. And then on that

440
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 3: kind of Friday call that Alex Carpet pre recorded and

441
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 3: sent to staffers, he kind of backed away from that question. Now,

442
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 3: this wasn't a live thing, so I'm just kind of

443
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 3: taking questions that were sent in the slack and seeing

444
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: if he would answer them in this call, and I'm

445
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 3: surprised he didn't really. But one thing that he did

446
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 3: say was that people and clients and companies who are

447
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 3: trying to break the law don't buy Palentin products because

448
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 3: they're too good essentially, and it would be a lot

449
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 3: easier to trace malfeasans because of how good foundry.

450
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 2: Is good as in good versus evil, or good as

451
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: in like well made software.

452
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 3: Well made software. Okay, so the software is so good

453
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 3: that you couldn't necessarily do anything illegal because there would

454
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 3: be all of these audit logs tracing what it is

455
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 3: that you've done. So that's his argument.

456
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 2: I mean, you could do it, they just find you.

457
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 2: But then if the person who's supposed to punish you

458
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: when they found out that you did something you're not

459
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 2: supposed to do, doesn't want to punish you, yeah, then

460
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 2: you can do the thing that you're not able to do, quote.

461
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: Unquote, which is what we've seen the Trump administration do

462
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 3: for the last year, especially on immigration enforcement, which is

463
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 3: just show up and enforce and you know, don't wait

464
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: on the courts, which I think is a concern a

465
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: lot of folks inside are seeing too, because you know,

466
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 3: from the materials that I've seen, a lot of folks

467
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 3: inside Pounder don't trust the government right now. They don't

468
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 3: trust the story that's coming from the Trump administration. And

469
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 3: how do you supply a tool to an untrustworthy institution,

470
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 3: right especially with so much power. You know, this is

471
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 3: still like an ongoing discussion that's being had there, but

472
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 3: we haven't really seen a meaningful response from leadership just yet.

473
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: So I don't know if you've seen this, but fairly recently,

474
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 2: alse Karp told CNBC that I'm quoting here, if you

475
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: are critical of ICE, you should be out there protesting

476
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: for more Palenteer. And then he said, our product actually,

477
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: in its core, requires people to conform with Fourth Amendment

478
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: data protections from your reporting from what you've seen, do

479
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: you think there's an audience of people who will hear

480
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 2: what he says and says you know what, You're right,

481
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: I'm anti I want more Palenteer. Like is that a

482
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 2: reasonable request from the CEO that people might actually pick

483
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 2: up and take seriously or is my man just totally

484
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: out of touch.

485
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 3: He's I think he's pretty out of touch here. And

486
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 3: if he's talking to CNBC, you know, and he's saying that,

487
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 3: I think I don't know if he's really trying to

488
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 3: talk to the critics of the company more than he's

489
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 3: trying to talk to investors.

490
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 2: So that is actually something I wanted to talk about

491
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: because most of the reporting I see about Palenteer is

492
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 2: about stocks. It's about the stock price. I mean, their

493
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: stock price is exploded. People are making incredible amounts of

494
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: money on it. Like if you type into google Palenteer,

495
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: the suggested searches are like Palenteer stock, Palenteer stock price,

496
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: the subreddit. It is not about their technology. It's like

497
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 2: game stop. It's about stock go up, stock go down.

498
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: I made money, I lost money. Yeah.

499
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 3: Well, I think that is such an important thing to

500
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: bring up because so much a Palenter and I hear

501
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 3: a lot of criticism like it's because the company isn't

502
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 3: so transparent. It's really hard to understand the real power

503
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 3: of its products, right. I think the real power is

504
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: those four deployed engineers. But I really don't know if

505
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 3: the software does anything all that crazy. You know that

506
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: something like a Salesforce maybe or a Google or Amazon

507
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 3: could provide for the government, right. I think it's more so.

508
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 3: So much of what Palanteer makes money off of is

509
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: the story it tells, which I think is easier to

510
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 3: bet on as a retail investor. And I think the

511
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 3: company is really kind of booed by the story about

512
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 3: how it's maintaining Western power and is willing to do

513
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 3: all of these things. The key to Palenter really is

514
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,719
Speaker 3: the storytelling aspect from KARB and leadership.

515
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: That's really interesting You say that because I feel like

516
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: the storytelling aspect works on two fronts, right, there's one

517
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: to the retail investors who people like, yo, I don't

518
00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: care what I'm investing in if it makes me money personally,

519
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 2: we're good forget everybody else. But then also, you know,

520
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 2: if you're doing things like what Karp says that the

521
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: company can do, like preventing a terrorist attack, like, hey, listen,

522
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: if you don't want terrorism, buy our stuff and we'll

523
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: prevent it. There's a lot of very eager ears for

524
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: that in the administration. Basically, what I'm saying is, you know,

525
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 2: in some ways this feels like another run of the

526
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: Patriot Act, another run of Post nine to eleven. Hey,

527
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: there's something out there that you've got to be scared of.

528
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 2: I can help prevent that. And then other people see

529
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: that will shoot if they believe it. I can make

530
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: money off of that belief YEP.

531
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 3: I mean, Palenteer really is kind of filling a void

532
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 3: in that kind of space. You know, the government wants

533
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 3: to know what it's buying, wants to know that there's

534
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 3: buy in from the vendor to do what it is

535
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 3: that it wants to do, and Palenter really sets that

536
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 3: tone from the get go and all of its advertising

537
00:30:58,760 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 3: and the way that Carp talks.

538
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think the opening line of Alex

539
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: Carp's book is something like Silicon Valley has lost its way. Yeah,

540
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: and then he goes on to say that all these

541
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: programmers are out here just making stuff because they like

542
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: making stuff. But we no longer have programmers with a

543
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: national purpose, which is incredible to hear somebody suggest that

544
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: a programmer needs a national purpose.

545
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, they need another. He's always kind of talking about

546
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 3: like the Manhattan Project and like getting the smartest minds

547
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: in the world to create something that has caused untold

548
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: amounts of pain and suffering, like the atomic bomb.

549
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: I also, I think maybe this is an opportunity here

550
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: for us to correct a little bit of misinformation. I

551
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: don't know if you've seen floating around that party full

552
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 2: the app is owned by Palenteer. We should probably say

553
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: very clearly here that partyful is not owned by Palenteer.

554
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 2: Party Full was founded by some former Polentteer employees. But

555
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: it's interesting to me that just regular people who want

556
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: to throw parties are now becoming aware or thinking about

557
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: this company that otherwise they probably would never think about.

558
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, something that I've been tracking is that

559
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 3: it's not even just like people with more left wing

560
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,479
Speaker 3: views that are skeptical of Palenteer. That's kind of always

561
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: been the case. But what we've seen more and more

562
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 3: is folks on the right as well. Really, there's this

563
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 3: comedian named Tim Dillon who is oftentimes for the last

564
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 3: couple of months, has been going after the company.

565
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 8: The level of power in terms of surveillance and data

566
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 8: mining and the power over your life has never been

567
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 8: as orwellian as it is now. That's what bothers a

568
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 8: lot of people. It's what bothers people about this Palenteer thing.

569
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we were talking about that yesterday. Yeah, the

570
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: Palenteer thing is very odd. That's comedian Tim Dillon talking

571
00:32:59,200 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: to Joe Rogan.

572
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 8: A lot of people feel that this is the precursor

573
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 8: to you know, a social credit score m hm, a

574
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 8: digital kind of police state, and that it's being done

575
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 8: under the guise of security, that you will be safer.

576
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 2: Which is what the Patriot actor was brought there. That's

577
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: exactly right. It's always the case. It's always the case.

578
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: They always sneak it in like you got to be safe.

579
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're seeing it even build on the right

580
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 3: as well.

581
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: What do you think behind that.

582
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 3: I think it comes down to surveillance. I also think

583
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 3: that there is kind of a because of how little

584
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 3: Palentteer as a company discusses the work that it does,

585
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 3: the actual work that it does, everything that we've discussed here,

586
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 3: this is like what we know that is already pretty concerning,

587
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 3: at least to a lot of experts that I talk

588
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: to in like civil rights and civil liberties spaces. But

589
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 3: even beyond that, you know, if they are requiring you

590
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 3: to sign an NDA for more information on the work

591
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 3: that they're doing with ICE, that isn't very reassuring. And

592
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 3: so because it's the company is just so opaque, it

593
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: allows people to project all the concerns that they have

594
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 3: about surveillance tech, about big tech power, and all of that,

595
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 3: I think onto Palenteer, reinforcing the kind of boogeyman image

596
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 3: that has grown.

597
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: So let's go back to that clip that we played

598
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 2: in the beginning. So that clip wasn't some behind closed

599
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: doors secret meeting that leaked or something like that. It

600
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 2: was a public call with investors. Like we said, most

601
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 2: civilians didn't know anything about Palenteer in twenty twenty four,

602
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: and a lot of the people who did know about it,

603
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 2: just thought of it as another company to invest in.

604
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: So here's Palenteer's CEO, Alex carp.

605
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 4: In his own words, Alex, as always, we have a

606
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 4: lot of individual investors on the line.

607
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 3: Is there anything you'd like to say before we end

608
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 3: the call.

609
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: We're doing it.

610
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 7: We're doing it, and I'm sure you're enjoying this as

611
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 7: much as I am.

612
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: Every Paletarium we are crushing it. Everyone else who's listening.

613
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: We are dedicating our company. We have dedicated our company

614
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: to the service of the West and the United States

615
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: of America, and we're super proud of the role we play,

616
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: especially in places we can't talk about. Palenteer is here

617
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: to disrupt and make the institutions we partner with the

618
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: very best in the world, and when it's necessary to

619
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: scare enemies and on occasion kill them.

620
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: No commentary here from me other than just re asking

621
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: one of the questions that I asked in the beginning,

622
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:45,399
Speaker 2: Who exactly are these enemies that we're talking about? Thank

623
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: you so much for listening to another episode kill Switch.

624
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: If you want to talk, you can email us at

625
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: kill Switch at Kaleidoscope dot NYC or on Instagram. We're

626
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 2: at kill Switch Pod. And if you've been listening to

627
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 2: the show for a bit and you like what you hear,

628
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: maybe leave us a review. It helps other people find

629
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 2: the show, which in turn helps us keep doing our thing.

630
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: And also, did you know that kill switch is on YouTube?

631
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 2: The link for that and everything else is in the

632
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 2: show notes. Kill Switch is hosted by Me Dexter Thomas.

633
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: It's produced by Sheena Ozaki, Darluck Potts, and Julia Nutter.

634
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by me and Kyle Murdoch, and

635
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 2: Kyle also mixes the show from Kaleidoscope. Our executive producers

636
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: are Ozma Lashin, Mangesh Hatigadour, and Kate Osborne. From iHeart

637
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 2: our executive producers are Katrina Norville and Nikki e. Tor.

638
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:32,439
Speaker 2: Catch y'all next week.

639
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 4: Bye,