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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Kate, how are you today?

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Speaker 1: I'm well, Paul. I told you the most god awful

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Speaker 1: story I think last week, the Veliska axe murders. Have

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Speaker 1: you been thinking about the offender? Whoever did all of

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Speaker 1: this horrible stuff?

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Speaker 2: You know, it is a horrific crime, and of course

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Speaker 2: you know, it's one of those things. As I was

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Speaker 2: sitting down and saying, Okay, we're going to be hearing

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Speaker 2: more about this case, I'm going through the details in

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Speaker 2: my head, going who would do this? You know? And

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Speaker 2: is it somebody I know? Early on I was thinking

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Speaker 2: it was somebody close to the More family. Now I'm

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Speaker 2: unsure about that.

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Speaker 1: Well, we've got some interesting suspects, but let me go

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Speaker 1: through the case really quickly. So it's nineteen twelve, Veliska, Iowa.

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Speaker 1: Prosperous but small town, twenty five hundred people. We're looking

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Speaker 1: at the More family. You've got four kids, all eleven

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Speaker 1: and under, three boys and a girl. We have Sarah

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Speaker 1: and Josiah More, no enemies that we could tell. Everybody's

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Speaker 1: been murdered, including the two little girls, were sleeping in

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Speaker 1: their guest room on the first floor of their farmhouse.

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Speaker 1: The twelve year old appears to have been posed and

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Speaker 1: sexually assaulted, but we don't know one hundred percent sure yet.

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Speaker 1: There's some really weird things in the house. Slab, the

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Speaker 1: bacon laying on the floor in a sack in the bedroom,

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Speaker 1: and then some more raw bacon it sounds like on

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Speaker 1: the floor in the kitchen looks like somebody's eaten there,

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Speaker 1: somebody's washed off there. You know, there's an axe that's

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Speaker 1: been taken that was owned by Josiah. And we have

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Speaker 1: a series that you were really interested in of murders

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Speaker 1: that seem similar More than just people taking an axe

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Speaker 1: throughout the Midwest and killing people. There's some real interesting

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Speaker 1: correlations between what happened, especially with Lena, who was the

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Speaker 1: twelve year old girl who seemed to be sort of

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Speaker 1: the person that was honed in on versus you know,

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Speaker 1: everybody else, and so we've been talking about that. The

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Speaker 1: Colorado Springs sheriff says, I think this is a series,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't seem like other people will agree with him,

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Speaker 1: and so it sounds like they're being investigated separately, which

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Speaker 1: probably could be a mistake. We don't know yet. Is

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Speaker 1: that a pretty good summary?

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Speaker 2: No, that sounds perfect as normal, Kate.

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Speaker 1: See that's what I like to hear. Okay, let's run

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Speaker 1: into some suspects. So the first one is I mentioned

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Speaker 1: that we were going to be talking about a reverend.

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Speaker 1: Here's our reverend. His name is Lynn George Jacqueline Kelly,

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Speaker 1: but we're going to call him Lynn. Okay, So this

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Speaker 1: is a guy who catches their attention. He is petite,

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Speaker 1: he's five foot. I don't know if I've ever called

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Speaker 1: a man petite before, but he's slight. Do you want

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Speaker 1: to go with slight?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, petite slide it works for me.

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Speaker 1: This guy's five foot two, he's one hundred and nineteen pounds, okay,

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Speaker 1: and a traveling preacher from England. Here's what they think

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Speaker 1: is interesting about Reverend Lynn. The night of the murder,

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Speaker 1: he was being hosted at the church that the Moors

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Speaker 1: went to, the Presbyterian Church, so this is three blocks

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Speaker 1: away from the Moor's farmhouse. He was staying at the parsonage.

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Speaker 1: He left Veliska for Macedonia, Iowa, which is about forty

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Speaker 1: miles away, on the five nineteen am westbound train the

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Speaker 1: very next day, so two hours before the neighbor discovers

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Speaker 1: the Moors, he is on a westbound train. But since

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Speaker 1: then he has been in frequent contact with the Velliska

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Speaker 1: detectives and the county and state attorneys, and Josiah's brother, Ross,

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Speaker 1: who was the one who showed up and first discovered

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Speaker 1: all the bodies. In a lengthy and meandering statements to

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Speaker 1: got all of those, Reverend Lynn wrote that he had

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Speaker 1: spied a man's shadow which was illuminated by a street

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Speaker 1: light as the man crept into the moorhouse while they

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Speaker 1: were at church. An accomplice put in air quotes waited nearby,

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Speaker 1: and he later heard the thuds of an axe, and

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Speaker 1: on the train the next morning he noticed there was

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Speaker 1: a suspicious stranger. And there are just flat out weird

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Speaker 1: things about Reverend Lynn. But give me your impression so far.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess I'm confused, is how where is Reverend Lynn?

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Speaker 2: Is he? I mean, how is he spotting somebody creeping

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Speaker 2: into the moor house and hearing, you know, thuds. Where

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Speaker 2: is he at at this point?

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Speaker 1: So my understanding is because the church is so close,

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Speaker 1: he might have been outside. You know, you can see

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Speaker 1: the house, I believe, from the church, and so his

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Speaker 1: argument is that he's kind of been in the area

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Speaker 1: and he could see from three blocks down somebody creeping in.

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Speaker 1: Now the thuds, that's another thing that is odd, but

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Speaker 1: you know, and then of course the generic suspicious stranger.

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Speaker 1: It's a weird story. And I think that's what gets

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Speaker 1: the attention of investigators in Alaska.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's got my attention because this is it's

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Speaker 2: almost as if he is in sort himself into the investigation.

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Speaker 2: You know, even though the church is near the Moor's house,

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Speaker 2: you know, he is observing the Moor's House at a

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Speaker 2: point where it's seeing the offender supposedly going in and

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Speaker 2: then hearing thuds, and are these thuds, you know, the

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Speaker 2: acts striking the victim's heads, Are these studs the acts

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Speaker 2: striking you know, the ceiling? You know? And this might

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Speaker 2: be in some ways how you know, when people are

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Speaker 2: trying to give statements where they're trying to prove their innocence,

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Speaker 2: but they end up pulling in details of the crime

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Speaker 2: because they think that law enforcement the interrogator is going

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Speaker 2: to suspect them up front, and so they have to

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Speaker 2: kind of say, well, I saw this or I heard this,

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Speaker 2: just to at least give them some distance from being

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Speaker 2: the actual person committing the crime. So I'm right away

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Speaker 2: I'm suspicious of Reverend Lynne myself.

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Speaker 1: Well, and you know, it's an interesting is based on

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Speaker 1: the description of the contamination that happened at the crime scene,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking, there is no way that anybody who

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Speaker 1: walked into that house or even was on the outside

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Speaker 1: of the house probably did not know every single detail

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Speaker 1: that happened in that case. I just wonder if there's

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Speaker 1: anything to withhold when people have walked through the house

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Speaker 1: so they know it's Josiah's acts. Otherwise he would have

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Speaker 1: said I saw the guy carrying an axe, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, yeah, you know. But even though you have all

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Speaker 2: of these let's say, i'll just call him civilian witnesses

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Speaker 2: that are are making observations, I would say probably all

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Speaker 2: of them don't know what they're looking at, okay, right

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Speaker 2: when it comes to you know, the blood patterns and

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Speaker 2: the defects and the injuries, you know, so they may

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Speaker 2: draw certain conclusions that are just not factually accurate with

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Speaker 2: you know, having an expert taking a look at this

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Speaker 2: crime scene.

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Speaker 1: For some reason, Reverend Lynn seems to be credit to

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Speaker 1: investigators because he comes back two weeks later and he

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Speaker 1: goes to the Veliska house with a group of investigators.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if he says, you know, I

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Speaker 1: have experience looking into things like this, but they let

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Speaker 1: him walk around the house and he says he found

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Speaker 1: a glass vial in a closet in the room where

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Speaker 1: Lena and Na slept, And he doesn't say what the vial.

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Speaker 1: They think the vial was for, but he's saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm investigating too. So he starts introducing himself as a

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Speaker 1: minister and a Scotland Yard trained detective because he's got

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Speaker 1: that English accent. He thinks the killer was a relative,

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Speaker 1: like the estranged brother in laws that were cleared by

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Speaker 1: police that were kind of sketchy, but they were they

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Speaker 1: provided alibis, so, you know, he says, well, I think

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Speaker 1: that you know that these guys had a grudge for

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Speaker 1: some reason against their family and did that. So he's

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Speaker 1: throwing this kind of stuff out there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, the a relative kind of adds

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Speaker 2: up with you know, my initial thought with the Moors

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Speaker 2: heads all being covered. But this is a very odd

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Speaker 2: scenario that he Reverend Linn sounds like a narcissist in

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Speaker 2: some ways because of his status as a reverend. He's

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Speaker 2: kind of hiding, if I use the term hiding behind

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Speaker 2: the cloth potentially if he's the offender, you know, as

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Speaker 2: a narcissist, he believes that his occupation, you know, is

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Speaker 2: sort of a shield against suspicion.

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Speaker 1: But if Reverend Lynn is the killer in this case,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't the covering up of the faces and the covering

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Speaker 1: up of the mirrors indicate it could have been a

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Speaker 1: religious man who also did this.

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Speaker 2: When you think about that covering of the mirrors, the

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Speaker 2: covering of the heads, you know, the mirrors. As I

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Speaker 2: mentioned before, he doesn't want to see himself and if

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Speaker 2: he truly has any type of faith, but then is

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Speaker 2: a killer of this magnitude. You could see the contradiction

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Speaker 2: in the psychology where he could be struggling with compulsions

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Speaker 2: where he goes out and commits these crimes and is

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Speaker 2: not wanting to look at himself as this religious figure

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Speaker 2: that is committing these types of this homicide, these sexual

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Speaker 2: assaults of an underage girl. So there's there's an aspect

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Speaker 2: to it where it adds up. You know, that's you know,

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Speaker 2: very much he would be diametrically opposed internally having a

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Speaker 2: let's say a strong religious faith but then committing this

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Speaker 2: type of crime, and then that could account, you know

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Speaker 2: for this oddity of the covering up of the mirrors.

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Speaker 1: Well, he has that theory I told you. You know,

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Speaker 1: he says he witnesses this man casting a shadow from

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Speaker 1: the street lamp, and you know, he sneaks into the

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Speaker 1: house and there was a stranger on the train. He

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Speaker 1: had described a stranger on the train to the investigators,

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Speaker 1: and the investigators say they checked with the folks on

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Speaker 1: the train. I mean, it's five nineteen in the morning,

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Speaker 1: it's not a crowded train, and they said there's nobody

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Speaker 1: who is shabbily dressed and is tall and kind of

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Speaker 1: a transient type person. Also, they said that the night

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Speaker 1: of June ninth, the night that he says the man

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Speaker 1: was creeping around and there was an accomplice, it was

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Speaker 1: a really cloudy night, so there was not a lot

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Speaker 1: of moonlight, and the power company had shut off the

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Speaker 1: city's power, so there were no street lamps. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what is happening in Reverend Lynd's head, but the

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Speaker 1: theory that he's thrown out as well as I'm sure

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Speaker 1: the glass vial is all bs. The question is is he,

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Speaker 1: to use the unscientific term looney or is he the

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Speaker 1: person involved in this?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so a lot of it has to do could

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Speaker 2: he have seen what he claims? So I've seen, and

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Speaker 2: then you know how rigorous was the view of him,

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Speaker 2: you know, to nail down aspects of whether he was

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Speaker 2: involved or not. He does he make any admissions of

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Speaker 2: any specialized knowledge that only the killer would know? Right now,

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is the first suspect you're presenting to me.

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Speaker 2: But you know, off the top, I'm going, wow, he

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Speaker 2: sounds kind of interesting to me. Just with Reverend Lynd.

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Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that I would be

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Speaker 2: also pursuing is can I place him in these other

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Speaker 2: towns where axe murders occurred?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely? Okay, suspect number two. So this is in full

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Speaker 1: of nineteen twelve. Frank Fernando Jones, and I told you

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Speaker 1: to kind of remember that because that's where the bloodhounds

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Speaker 1: stopped short right when they were sniffing the blood at

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Speaker 1: his mansion. He's a very wealthy man. He's in Veluska.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's this is his hometown, or this is

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Speaker 1: where he's been living. The bloodhounds had stopped. So that

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Speaker 1: was reason number one they turned. They didn't forget about

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Speaker 1: Reverend Lynn, but they're trying to cover all their bases.

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Speaker 1: They look at Frank, and I think that was one

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Speaker 1: of the main reasons why. But there's another good reason.

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Speaker 1: Frank is a prominent, powerful citizen. He's a merchant, he's

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Speaker 1: a banker, he's part of the Methodist community, and he's

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Speaker 1: also a senator, an Iowa State senator. So there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of well known animosity between Frank Jones and

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Speaker 1: Josiah Moore. Sometime before nineteen oh seven, Frank had hired

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Speaker 1: Josiah to sell farming equipment at his store, and when

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Speaker 1: Josiah resigned to establish his own store, which was the

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Speaker 1: John Deere kind of franchise, it was in direct competition

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Speaker 1: to the Jones store, and Frank was very upset because

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Speaker 1: it sounds like Josiah took the company's contract with John

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Speaker 1: Deere plow company with him, and Frank was furious. And

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Speaker 1: by nineteen twelve the two men were no longer on

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Speaker 1: speaking terms. So this is the year they were murdered.

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Speaker 1: In fact, they couldn't even walk on the same street.

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Speaker 1: So now we're talking about is this revenge? There's a

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Speaker 1: little something deeper I'll tell you about, but just on

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Speaker 1: the surface, what do you think of business conflict? These

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Speaker 1: two guys hate each other, but there doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: be a recent inciting incident that we know of.

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, going back to the crime scene,

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Speaker 2: you have, you know, the most violence was inflicted on Josiah,

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Speaker 2: you know, so that possibly could indicate, you know, that

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Speaker 2: he was the intended target, which could be consistent with

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Speaker 2: this animosity that Frank has for him. It's also possible

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Speaker 2: he's the biggest threat to the offender, and there's no

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Speaker 2: additional animosity that the offender has for Josiah versus the

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Speaker 2: other victims in the house. When you start talking about

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Speaker 2: prior relationships, you know, sometimes these things fester. And even

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Speaker 2: though there wasn't any type of recent issue between Frank

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Speaker 2: and Josiah that anybody knew about, there could be something

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Speaker 2: simmering inside of Frank to go and commit this crime. Now,

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Speaker 2: you know, it seems like it's a bit up and

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Speaker 2: beyond just a vindictive style homicide over a business transaction,

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Speaker 2: you know, taking out an entire family as well as

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Speaker 2: two unrelated little girls. I mean, that is a you know,

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Speaker 2: that's really taking things to an extreme for this type

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Speaker 2: of motive. You know, but I wantn't discount it. But

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Speaker 2: there's some inconsistencies. Why would Frank be covering the mirrors.

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Speaker 2: There's some aspects of this which you go, well, this

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Speaker 2: seems not necessarily in line with this type of scenario.

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Speaker 2: But I couldn't discount it entirely for sure.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I will tell you that there are three suspects,

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Speaker 1: and it sounds like even today the camps are split

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Speaker 1: between two. One is Reverend Lynn and one is Frank.

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Speaker 1: Here's one of the things about Frank. There is a

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Speaker 1: rumor that has been going around that believe was verified

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Speaker 1: that Josiah was having an affair with Frank's daughter in law,

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Speaker 1: who is married to Frank's son Albert. So it becomes

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Speaker 1: personal and there's a whole kind of write up about

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Speaker 1: what is involved with that. So let me tell you

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Speaker 1: about that. She is twenty two, her name is Donna,

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Speaker 1: and this all ghost man sign of the times. This

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Speaker 1: all pops up because of the telephone company operators. So

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Speaker 1: Mutual Telephone Company has operators who obviously connect houses to houses,

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Speaker 1: so they connected Josiah to Donna at least a dozen

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Speaker 1: times in the months leading up to the murder. And

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Speaker 1: there doesn't seem to be a reason why, especially because

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Speaker 1: he's arguing with his father in law. Josiah is not

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Speaker 1: the only one who's been calling her of the male persuasion,

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Speaker 1: and I call it that. But she was speaking more

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Speaker 1: frequently to a doctor named doctor Lomas. This was not

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Speaker 1: because they were having an affair. The speculation is that

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Speaker 1: she was looking to terminate a pregnancy. Then the guy

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Speaker 1: that was definitely have any affair with her, is this

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Speaker 1: guy named Albert Davy. He's a local real estate and

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Speaker 1: insurance salesman, and he dialed her number a lot. According

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Speaker 1: to the operators, this is a kind of a juicy

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Speaker 1: bit of gossip, if we want to take this as

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Speaker 1: for what it is. Albert Davy and Donna were caught

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Speaker 1: in bed by Donna's husband, Albert So Frank's son. There

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Speaker 1: was a scuffle and they knocked the phone off from

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Speaker 1: the receiver. The operators could hear what was happening. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So the operators say they heard the husband, Albert, shoot

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend and he did lose part of his thumb.

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Speaker 1: So this is why Frank is a really really viable suspect,

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Speaker 1: or Frank and Albert together, if Josiah's really having an

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Speaker 1: affair with the son's wife. The son has already proven

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Speaker 1: that he's violent. He tries to shoot the other guy,

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Speaker 1: and this is what leads us to Frank Jones.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, there's there's a lot of churn in terms of

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Speaker 2: Frank and Josiah with the business with the affair. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'd be digging into Frank in terms of Okay, I mean,

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Speaker 2: we have a we have a young girl that's sectually

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Speaker 2: assaulted in this this homicide, she's you know, she may

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Speaker 2: have been killed first and sexually assaulted or sexually assaulted

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Speaker 2: and then killed. I don't have any information to be

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Speaker 2: able to determine the sequence, you know, so I'd be

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Speaker 2: wanting to know, you know, Frank's past. What are the

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Speaker 2: rumors about Frank? You know, is is he you know,

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Speaker 2: molesting other kids over the course of his adult history?

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Speaker 2: You know, is he somebody that does seem to have

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Speaker 2: a preference for for children as for sex, you know,

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Speaker 2: and that would further elevate Frank in my mind, you know,

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Speaker 2: potentially as a suspect. You know what, Now it does

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Speaker 2: come down to You've presented two suspects, and one is

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Speaker 2: traveling around the countryside and the other is you know,

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Speaker 2: stationary and has a personal beef with the adult male victim, Josiah.

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Speaker 2: So is there any information that I could discern that

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Speaker 2: these those other cases are related, you know, not having

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Speaker 2: the capability in nineteen twelve to use modern technology, you know,

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Speaker 2: now it's going to be that investigation. This is where

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Speaker 2: you have to look at at these cases. As we

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Speaker 2: talked about in the first episodes, you can't just dismiss

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Speaker 2: the possibility of a series, nor can you dismiss the

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Speaker 2: possibility that the more homicide is a standalone So you

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Speaker 2: have to look at both. And so I've got these

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Speaker 2: two suspects, and as I mentioned before, it's Reverend Lynn.

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Speaker 2: Can I place Reverend Lynn in these other locations where

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Speaker 2: we have other similar homicides? And of course with Frank,

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Speaker 2: it's now investigation one oh one as a standalone case,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of it is going to be having

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Speaker 2: to do with well where were you that night? Yep? Right?

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Speaker 2: What you know is he just saying, well, I was

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Speaker 2: asleep at home with my wife, you know, which, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you don't have a strong alibi, but you know, you

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Speaker 2: have to start building that type of database on details

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Speaker 2: from Frank to see what's adding up and what's not.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe Albert has a strong alibi, otherwise they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't focus on him this much. Why they are really

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Speaker 1: looking at him, besides the whole affair rumor and all

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Speaker 1: of that and his propensity for violence, is the morning

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Speaker 1: that Reverend Lynn is on a train at five nineteen

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Speaker 1: in the morning, at six point fifty in the morning,

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Speaker 1: just an hour or so before the more families discovered

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Speaker 1: Albert had been seen leaving out of town with a

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Speaker 1: guy named W. B Bert McCall and he is a

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Speaker 1: local pool hall manager. And explicably later somebody displays a

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Speaker 1: piece of Josiah's skull, probably the bit with that was stolen,

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Speaker 1: I imagine, put on display in Bert's pool room showcase.

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Speaker 1: And there is a tailor in town that says that

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Speaker 1: he cleaned blood from one of Albert's suits shortly after

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Speaker 1: the murder. But that is really it.

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Speaker 2: So Albert is the one that is being looked at

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Speaker 2: as a suspect and not Frank.

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Speaker 1: So I mean it's kind of pick or choose the

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Speaker 1: guy who's being cheated on or his father who has

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Speaker 1: been ripped off. And so the Moor's, you know, Josiah

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Speaker 1: more specifically, if this is true, has pissed them both

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Speaker 1: off for different reasons. But there's still a sex assault

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Speaker 1: or a po I mean, it just to me doesn't

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Speaker 1: make any sense, no, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, and you know, wearing a suit. Let's say you're

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Speaker 2: going to wear a suit and you're going to be

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Speaker 2: hiding behind bales of hay in the barn and sneaking

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Speaker 2: into a house, and you know, I'd want to know. Okay,

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Speaker 2: what kind of you know, blood patterns were seen on

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Speaker 2: this suit? You know, because I could venture, I guess

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Speaker 2: that there would be something that would indicate Okay, now

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Speaker 2: you've got a bludgeoning, or you have you know, the

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Speaker 2: use of an axe, or some cast off in the

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Speaker 2: back of the suit, cast off droplets, I should say,

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Speaker 2: you know, there'd be aspects that I would want to note.

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Speaker 2: Does the whatever what was he he said he was

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Speaker 2: a tailor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was a tailor who said he cleaned this

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Speaker 1: suit after the murders. But I mean, and we don't

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Speaker 1: know how much blood. It doesn't sound like it was

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Speaker 1: covered with blood, So okay, I just I'm not sure

382
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Speaker 1: I'm buying any of that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's kind of tough. I don't know. I

384
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Speaker 2: think that the unusual aspects within this crime scene, the

385
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Speaker 2: sexual assault, it doesn't add up as as well with

386
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Speaker 2: a you know, this financial motive, this beef over the affair,

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Speaker 2: versus you have somebody that potentially is a sexually motivated predator.

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Speaker 1: Right, and you've got Reverend Lynn who is inserting himself

389
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Speaker 1: in the case all over the place and acting like

390
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Speaker 1: he's Scotland Yard and trying to control things.

391
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Speaker 2: It's bizarre.

392
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Speaker 1: So there's a third suspect who will touch on briefly,

393
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Speaker 1: but he is ruled out basically because there's a fingerprint expert.

394
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Speaker 1: He says that there is a guy named Henry Lee Moore,

395
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Speaker 1: no relation to the More family, but spelled the same way.

396
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Speaker 1: This fingerprint agent with the FBI says, I think it's

397
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Speaker 1: this guy, and this is the last primary suspect. So

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Speaker 1: on March seventeenth, nineteen thirteen, this guy, Lee Moore, had

399
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Speaker 1: been convicted and sentenced to life in the Missouri State

400
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Speaker 1: Penitentiary for the double murder of his mother and his

401
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 1: grandmother in Columbia, Missouri. So both of these women had

402
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Speaker 1: been bludgeoned with an axe in their bedrooms and the

403
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Speaker 1: acts was discarded in a ravine behind the house. And

404
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: in Lee's hotel room there had been bloody clothes and

405
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Speaker 1: that the deal. But Lee is ruled out because it

406
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: sounds like they can confirm that he was in Columbia,

407
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Speaker 1: Missouri during the time period when the axe murders are happening,

408
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Speaker 1: So that was the only thing, and the FBI agent,

409
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Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure why he thought that this guy

410
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Speaker 1: was the guy but they throw him out there as

411
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Speaker 1: like a hail Mary, I guess, but he's in Colombia. Now,

412
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Speaker 1: I don't know how you can account for somebody he's

413
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Speaker 1: not in prison in Colombia, but I don't know how

414
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Speaker 1: you can account for somebody in another state the whole time.

415
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 2: But they say no, Yeah, I suspect that that fingerprint

416
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: examiner probably did work on that case and was told

417
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Speaker 2: some of the details and said, hey, that sounds like

418
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Speaker 2: the one that's up there in Iowa, right because axes

419
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Speaker 2: were used in both cases. If that's the only reason

420
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Speaker 2: why this Henry Moore is even associated with it, And

421
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Speaker 2: they're saying, well, you know, we can place him down

422
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Speaker 2: there in Missouri. You know, I don't think it's necessarily

423
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Speaker 2: an a lim the nation, but he becomes you a far

424
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Speaker 2: less likely suspect than the other two. Yeah, I think

425
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Speaker 2: you know, Reverend Lynn and Frank right now are probably

426
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Speaker 2: one A and one B.

427
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Speaker 1: The Moors are so upset about all of this because

428
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Speaker 1: they feel like this is being watched. They don't have

429
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Speaker 1: a good suspect. I mean, they're they're looking at suspects,

430
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Speaker 1: but it's not moving quickly enough for them. So the

431
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Speaker 1: Moors and the Montgomery's, who is Sarah Moore's family, and

432
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: the Stillingers, who are Ena and Lina's parents. They hire

433
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: a private investigator from the Burns Detective Agency. This was

434
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: not a good thing. The guy did nothing but take

435
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: their money essentially and didn't get anywhere, which is so

436
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 1: sad to me. I mean, I've written about that for

437
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: a long time. Of course, there are families that try

438
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: to hire the clairvoyance or the mediums or you know,

439
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: for any kind of help, or people who turn to

440
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: cyber sleuths who might not be able to be helpful

441
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: at all. But you know, you also have the private

442
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: investigators who can do a world of good. But you

443
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: also might get somebody who just MUCKs up the case

444
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: and this guy did nothing for them.

445
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, to be frank, this case was messed up

446
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: from the very beginning. Oh yeah, you know, you just

447
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: have an inexperienced agency and experienced investigator contaminated crime scene.

448
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 2: You know. Now, let's say, you know, it sounds like

449
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: Reverend Lynn was discovered fairly early and now they're the

450
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 2: way they're interacting with him does not sound appropriate in

451
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: terms of, well, he's a suspect. Let's you know, dial

452
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: this in and get him locked into some statements and

453
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: investigate him.

454
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: Well, get ready, So now we're going back to Reverend Lynn.

455
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: So in December of nineteen thirteen, so this is, you know,

456
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: about a year and a half after the murders, Lynn

457
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: went from Veliska to Winner, South Dakota, and he has

458
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: become known as just like crank in a loud mouth.

459
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: He frequently rants about the Villiska murders. He's ranting about

460
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: how Sarah Moore had woken amid the chaos, and how

461
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: the killer you know, of course, used an axe on everybody,

462
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: but had taken his bloody shirt to a council bluff

463
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: laundry to be cleaned. How this murderer was, you know,

464
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: unable to control his fiendish mania, and on multiple occasions

465
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: he confessed to having committed the crime himself. And then

466
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: I have his background.

467
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: Reverend Lynn is a nutjob. Let's just put it out there.

468
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: You see, a murderous nut job, is the question.

469
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: There's some red flags coming up here, right, He's you know,

470
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 2: making some statements, you know, such as Sarah waking up.

471
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: Only the killer would know that. Now, why is Reverend

472
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 2: Lynn throwing that out there? Like he has some sort

473
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 2: of clairvoyant insight as to what happened, or like what

474
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: I talked about before, when he's you know, kind of

475
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 2: inserting himself into the investigation and saying I saw this,

476
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: you know, guy sneaking into the house and I heard thuds.

477
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 2: You know, there's there's leakage about what he really does

478
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 2: know about the case, and it's he's expressing that. And

479
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 2: and if he's as a reverend, you know, confessing I'm

480
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 2: assuming to you know, private parties about you know, having

481
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: committed these crimes, Well, why is he making those statements?

482
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 2: Is he just trying to impress whoever he's talking to,

483
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: or you know, are these moments of truth you know

484
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 2: where he's talking. Is he under the influence and is going, hey,

485
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: you know, I'm you know, the tongue is a little

486
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 2: free at this point.

487
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: M M, Well, let me tell you more about him.

488
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,959
Speaker 1: He had been posting advertisements for a female stenographer who

489
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: is also willing to pose nude.

490
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: Oh so he's he's trying to hire somebody like that.

491
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: Yep. And he is arrested for sending multiple obscene letters

492
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: to one of the ads respondents. Then the investigators are

493
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: trying to figure out his mental health status, which is

494
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: not good. He explodes into profanities. When he is brought

495
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: in by the Sioux Falls jail, he is crying and

496
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: he offers to perform sexual acts on his cellmates. He

497
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: sexually harasses another prisoner. He tries to hang himself. He

498
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: admits to murdering the more family and the girls in Valliska,

499
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: and then they hold a sanity hearing for him because

500
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: now he's confessed to all this stuff, so they say, okay, well,

501
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: I mean we're going to charge you. There's a sanity

502
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: hearing that is about two years after the murders. He

503
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: can't remember his name. He says he seemed delusional, paranoid, psychotic,

504
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: and he's transferred to Saint Elizabeth's Hospital in DC and

505
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: after undergoing psychotherapy with God knows what techniques. I don't

506
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: know what that means, but in nineteen fourteen it would

507
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: be questionable. Maybe he is deemed sane. And he's released

508
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: in January of nineteen fifteen. Over the next year and

509
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: a half, this happens two more times. So he ends

510
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: up in Sioux Falls jail because he's arrested for sending

511
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,239
Speaker 1: these obscene letters, and then that's when what we had

512
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: just talked about started, where he's willing to perform sex

513
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: acts on cellmates. He just starts to sort of fall

514
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: apart once he's put in jail, but then he goes

515
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: to a psychiatric hospital and then he's released, and then

516
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: it happens two more times and there you go.

517
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the kind of this, if you want to

518
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: call him psychotic breaks that he's demonstrating, there is some

519
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: churn in terms of his psychology, his personality with the

520
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 2: type of offender that I would imagine would be committing

521
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: the Velesca Axe homicides, But you still have to show

522
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: his involvement in the case, which these things that are

523
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: happening afterwards, it's like, has nothing to do with the homicide.

524
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: It's just okay, you know this guy's he's a little

525
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: bit on the strange side. But we can place them

526
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: in Veleska at the time of the homicides. We can

527
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: place them at the church where the victims spent the

528
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: entire day, so there is proximity, but you still now

529
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 2: to have to put him inside the house. He's made confessions, okay,

530
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: but what are the details of those confessions? And can

531
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: we use those details of those confessions and correlate those

532
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 2: with details that only the killer would know, you know?

533
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: And I haven't heard anything yet along those lines. But

534
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 2: if it is Reverend Lynn, if he's the Veleska killer,

535
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: then there's a strong chance that he is the responsible

536
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: for the prior homicides in the other states. Yeah, you know.

537
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 2: And how much investigation went into those, well.

538
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,719
Speaker 1: And they're independent because they decided not to investigate them

539
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: as a series. So let me tell you about this.

540
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: So at this point, Reverend Lynn is in the wind.

541
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: It's been now three years, but just about one hundred

542
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: miles from where he was last We're in Omaha, Nebraska,

543
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: and there is a woman named Ada Swanson. She's a

544
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: Swedish domestic servant. She's found bludgeoned to death with a

545
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: hatchet in her employer's basement. The entire back portion of

546
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: her skull is crushed. Traces a blood on her lower

547
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: legs indicate that her murderer moved her body after she died,

548
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: and the corner describes the killer as a moral pervert.

549
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: I don't see face covered or some of that other stuff.

550
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: But the reason they're interested is because Reverend Lynn's mentor

551
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: is part of a seminary that is right across the

552
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: street from where this woman lived.

553
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: Can we put Reverend Lynn at that seminary around the

554
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: time for him with a homicide?

555
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: He's in the wind, he's gone. Nobody knows where he

556
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: is right now.

557
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: I mean, it is interesting for sure, when I've worked

558
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 2: cases where multiple suspects are involved, you know, eventually somebody

559
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: rises to the level of a prime suspect, and the

560
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: media often misuses how law enforcement uses the term suspect.

561
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: You know, the media, you know, says, well, if somebody's

562
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: named a suspect, then we're going to you know, run

563
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 2: with that name and put it out into the public.

564
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: And it's like, no, no, no, we're just classifying this

565
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: person as a suspect because there's something suspicious about them

566
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: that we have to kind of resolve. And most of

567
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: the time, you know, we're able to eliminate these people

568
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: that we designate as suspects. But every now and then

569
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: somebody rises to a level where you go, Okay, there

570
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,959
Speaker 2: is enough going on where I cannot ignore this person.

571
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 2: It's not just suspicious. There is now getting to a

572
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: point to where, you know, in a law enforcement kind

573
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 2: of parliaance. This person is now approaching reasonable suspicion and

574
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: I may be developing probable cause, right, you know, And

575
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: so it's now getting this person that is suspicious and going,

576
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: oh no, now now I have a tie to the

577
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: nexus of the crime. There is now a connection, and

578
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 2: is this person responsible or not? And that's when you

579
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 2: take that next step. And so with Reverend Lynd, I'm going,

580
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: you know, he's a prime suspect right now? Is he

581
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: has he risen above that? But he's got my devoted

582
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: attention if I'm working this case.

583
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's get into this because they are able

584
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: at some point to track him down. There is a

585
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: grand jury because now everybody's convinced. And this happens in

586
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: April of nineteen seventeen, five years almost later. There's testimony

587
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: about how wacky he sounds in jail. He's erratic behavior,

588
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: history of sexual harassment and assault, which I have more

589
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: information about he had those confessions. The Attorney General really

590
00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 1: talks about Lena and the way that she appeared and

591
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: that this is the key to what he called a

592
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: pedophilic peeping tom and that he thinks that that fits

593
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: Reverend Lynn and the fact that he covered the windows.

594
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: There's a lot of what I call sex pest testimony.

595
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: Sex pest is a very old term for, you know,

596
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 1: a pervert essentially, So there's a lot of voyeurism in

597
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: his background. And there are several families and women who

598
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: describe encounters that were really uncomfortable for them. A pharmacist

599
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 1: said that he caught Reverend Lynn peeping into his living

600
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: room before the murders, and the jury also hears reports

601
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: of Lynn luring young girls to his home under false

602
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: pretenses and asking them to pose naked. And there's a

603
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: girl from South Dakota who testifies that she had been

604
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: lured to his house when she was thirteen. He begged

605
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: her to pose naked, arguing that there were many instances

606
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: in the Bible wherein characters are nude. He then showed

607
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: her his collection of pornography, and the girls as I

608
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: have a friend, and the same thing happened with this friend.

609
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: So it's not just I mean, when you're talking about churn,

610
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: that's more churn I have to assume.

611
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: Right, it's showing that he's a child molester. He is

612
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: actually purposefully engaging with underaged girls for sexual purposes. You know,

613
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: whether it be to posed nude. He's this is all

614
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 2: part of this what we call grooming, you know, in

615
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: terms of hey, come take some photographs. Oh the Bible

616
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: says it's okay. Oh now, hey, let's engage in some

617
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: sexual activities. You know, he's he's conditioning these girls. And

618
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: this is now direct overlap with the offender who is

619
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: now sexually assaulting an underaged girl. So Reverend Lynn is

620
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: demonstrating this sexual preference that I'm now going, okay, he's

621
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: checking a massive box, you know, this this idea of

622
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 2: voyeurism or the peeping you know, on these young girls

623
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: that at least suspecting that Reverend Lynn was involved with.

624
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 2: You know, I have a feeling that let's say Reverend

625
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: Lynn is our killer in this case, He's at the church,

626
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: his target is Lena. The moors just happened to be

627
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 2: where Lena ended up for the night, and that's why

628
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: they were killed. It's sad.

629
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: That makes sense to me. Let me give you a

630
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: couple of more details. He ends up being indicted. I

631
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: don't think there's any mystery about that. One thing that's interesting.

632
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: There are witnesses that describe material evidence that connects Lynn

633
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 1: to the murders. So remember he went ranting about the

634
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: Bluff City Laundry College Bluff Council Bluff's laundry where the

635
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: killer had his shirt washed. A clerk says she received

636
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: an unlabeled package of laundry containing a bloody shirt after

637
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 1: the murders. She says it had the appearance of having

638
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: a lot of bloe, quite a lot of blood, and

639
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: the shirt had the appearance of having been soaked in

640
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 1: water and attempted to be washed out. Reverend Lynn picked

641
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: it up. It was his shirt, and that's what he

642
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,479
Speaker 1: had said before. Now let me shorthand something like really

643
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 1: shorthand something, because you know, anybody who knows this case

644
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: is going to say, hey, how come you didn't cover this.

645
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: I'm not covering this because I think it's quite frankly stupid.

646
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: So this PI who had inserted himself, you know, on

647
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: the best of the moors, he is hell bent on

648
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: getting Frank Jones. He ends up being the one who

649
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: tracks down Reverend Lynn because he wants to use Reverend

650
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: Lynn to trap Frank Jones, because he's convinced Frank Jones

651
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: is the one who did this either on behalf of

652
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: his son or because of the grievance or whatever it was.

653
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: So this PI is really mucking stuff up. Reverend Lynn

654
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: had been in Nebraska. He reconnected with his wife. I

655
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 1: don't know who's married to this guy, but Laura Kelly

656
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 1: is and they went to Illinois and that's where the

657
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: PI ended up tracking him down. And there's just a

658
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: series of just stupidity. The Montgomery County Sheriff's office tries

659
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: to entrap Reverend Lynn because the FBI agent had believed

660
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: I think that the person holding the axe was left

661
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: handed based on the marks on the ceiling. So they

662
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: ask Lynn, do you want to go out in chop

663
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: wood while you're being held in jail, and he said sure,

664
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: And he's left handed, so you know there's.

665
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: That I wouldn't put any weight on that I know.

666
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: So I'll tell you about the shirt. I know you

667
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: want to talk about the shirt, but let me get

668
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: to the trial. Also, there's a big series of interrogations.

669
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: Once they finally get Lynn, he has been indicted. He says,

670
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: on August thirty first, very early in the morning, I

671
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: felt God wanted me to slay utterly. Then, driven by

672
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: the Bible verse, suffered little children to come onto me.

673
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: He says he took the axe and sent those children somewhere.

674
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: Three hours later, he makes another confession, this one differs

675
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: in the order that he killed the victims. But you know,

676
00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: I mean, this is where they stand, and then they're

677
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: going to put him on trial. So what do you

678
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: think The shirt is the most interesting thing to me

679
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,240
Speaker 1: out of all of that, even more than confessions.

680
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: Well, we know, you know, at the crime scene, you

681
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 2: have a bowl that appears to have been used by

682
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: the offender to clean up. You know, is that just

683
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: him washing his hands or is he recognizing that, you know,

684
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 2: his clothing is soiled with blood. You also have outdoors

685
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 2: on the back porch another bowl with dirty water in it. So,

686
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: you know, the shirt coming in per the cleaners saying,

687
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 2: you know, it looked like there had been previous attempts

688
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 2: to wash it. Well, that could have occurred. You know,

689
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 2: if he's recognizing I've got blood all over me, I

690
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: need before I start walking out of this house, I

691
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: need to kind of clean up and try to get

692
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: rid of this blood on my clothing. That could be consistent.

693
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 2: It's a circumstantial piece of evidence back in nineteen you know,

694
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 2: nineteen twelve, nineteen fifteen. Whenever this actually is being stated,

695
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 2: you know, today, if we could find that shirt, we

696
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: could actually turn it into physical evidence, you know, to say, yes,

697
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: this has victims, you know, dilute victim's blood on it.

698
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 2: The timing of this bloody shirt coming into the cleaner,

699
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: the condition of that shirt, it does seem to be

700
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: consistent with the circumstances within the crime scene. I think

701
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 2: that that is, you know, it's it's significant, circumstantial evidence.

702
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 2: But they probably never recovered that shirt. Am I correct

703
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 2: about that?

704
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: You're correct?

705
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, So now you know, you would think that the

706
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 2: cleaner wouldn't have any type of motive to lie, But

707
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 2: that is a massive well where's the shirt? You know,

708
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 2: we never recovered it, and we go to Reverendent, where's

709
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 2: a shirt? You know? So it's it's something that you know,

710
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 2: it's it's a finger pointing at best, saying well, at

711
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 2: least you know you have somebody who really has no

712
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 2: motive to make something up to say, hey, this is

713
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: what we experience. And then was there a receipt? Is

714
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 2: there any way to recover that through business records that

715
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: it was actually Reverend Lynn that picked up the shirt.

716
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 2: So but it is interesting for sure, you know, and

717
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: and things Reverend Lynn. You know, I've already said, yeah,

718
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,479
Speaker 2: he's a prime suspect, and there's churn. You know, there's

719
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: no question there's churn. It's now can you prove? Can

720
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 2: you prove that he is the actual killer? And this

721
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 2: is where, you know, I don't know how this case ended,

722
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 2: you know, but right now I'm going, God, it seems

723
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 2: like they got the right guy.

724
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let me tell you about something that's

725
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,479
Speaker 1: really disturbing, and then we'll get to what happens. Because

726
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 1: you've already heard all the evidence. You know, there's nothing new.

727
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: There's a theory about the bacon. So the DA thinks

728
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 1: that Reverend Linn was impotent and he used the bacon

729
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: to masturbate. I don't even know what to say about that.

730
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: I wouldn't dismiss that. Yeah, with the sexually motivated offenders,

731
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: it's not uncommon for them not to be able to

732
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 2: become erect or you know, so they can't penetrate. But

733
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: sometimes what they will do is they will masturbate over

734
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 2: the victim or while looking at the victim. And this

735
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 2: is something where when I'm talking to law enforcement, whether

736
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 2: you're as an investigator or you're a CSI don't just

737
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: think that the evidence is in or on the body.

738
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: It is potentially in the area around the body. You

739
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: have to be taking a look for that ejaculate. And

740
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 2: it is a known phenomenon with these types of offenders.

741
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 2: So I would not dismiss the idea that you know,

742
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: and this is a fairly sizable piece of bacon that

743
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 2: somehow you know it was used. But I would say

744
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 2: that that's probably as good of an explanation for that

745
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 2: bacon being in that room next to the murder weapon

746
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 2: as any.

747
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, you've heard everything. Essentially, the defense is he's crazy,

748
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: but he's not a killer, so he's being in a

749
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: sane asylum. He should not be in prison. Okay, And

750
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: they say, of course he's not the killer of these people.

751
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: What do you think is the verdict.

752
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 2: Not guilty by reason of insanity is what I'm guessing.

753
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:19,240
Speaker 1: Hung jury for the first one, Okay, then they retry him.

754
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: The judge and the second one omitted his confession from

755
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: evidence because of the coercion accusations. Five point thirty in

756
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 1: the morning, he says, this was, you know, horrible, So

757
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: the focus for the state becomes his proximity of the crimes,

758
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: his history of Milton illness, the lewd conduct, all of

759
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: that stuff, and ultimately it is a four and a

760
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: half hour deliberation not guilty. So he walks.

761
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm not sure, you know, most early in

762
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 2: today's day and age, I don't think they've got a

763
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: case that should have been taken to trial. Yeah, or

764
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: even necessarily charged. I think they're on the right track,

765
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: you know, back in nineteen twelve, with the limitations that

766
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 2: they had, you know, now they're relying on some circumstantial evidence.

767
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 2: I'm not I guess I'm not surprised that you now

768
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 2: have an acquittal just because it's not they can't prove

769
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 2: in that. You know, he has confessions, confessions being thrown out.

770
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 2: You know, you know, I don't know what these confessions,

771
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 2: what kind of details these confessions had. But you have

772
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 2: an agency, you have probably a prosecutor. They don't know

773
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:31,399
Speaker 2: what they're looking at at this crime scene. They don't

774
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 2: know how to interpret this crime scene, you know, so

775
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 2: can they truly correlate details in his confession to facts

776
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 2: at the crime scene? You know that only you know,

777
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: only the killer would know and be able to articulate

778
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: that they probably can't. So in some ways, you know,

779
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: with the information that you've presented, I think Reverend Lynn

780
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 2: appears to be a very, very solid suspect that I

781
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 2: would even say is likely responsible for the Vleeska homicides. However,

782
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 2: I can't quibble with the acquittal just based off of

783
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: the types of evidence being presented to the jury. I

784
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 2: think they moved before they should have. They needed to

785
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:20,760
Speaker 2: build a stronger case.

786
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so after he is acquitted, he and his wife

787
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: go to Chicago, and they go to New York, but

788
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: there's you know, other stuff that follows them around. He's

789
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 1: a patient from nineteen thirty until nineteen forty two at

790
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: a mental state hospital for the chronicly insane is what

791
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 1: they called it. Then his wife dies and in nineteen

792
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: fifty seven he goes to another hospital in Long Island,

793
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: the Central Islip State Mental Hospital, and then a couple

794
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: of years later he dies at age eighty. So I

795
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: don't know if he talked about these murders or what

796
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: happens after that, but officially that case is still unsolved

797
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: in Iowa.

798
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: No, that's crazy. Was he ever investigative for the other cases.

799
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: Nope, not that I know of, because they split him

800
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: apart thanks to that Illinois guy.

801
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: And I'd wonder if there's any public records that would

802
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: be in existence today that could place him in one

803
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: of those jurisdictions. I just need one we can look.

804
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 1: I mean, he's dumb enough probably to use his own name.

805
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: I can poke around and see.

806
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: Well, you think about some of these, Like some of

807
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: these churches, they'll have what do you want to call him?

808
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: Guest logs? Yeah, and they archive those. You know, does

809
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 2: he show up at a church in Colorado Springs and

810
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 2: sign a guest log and it's around it's contemporaneous with

811
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 2: that ex murder that happened you know where I live.

812
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 2: You know, maybe I need to figure out what church

813
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 2: you would have been at.

814
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think we can definitely dig around

815
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: and look, and I think that would be really interesting.

816
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 1: I don't know what DNA would be like from back then,

817
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: what they collected, what's still there, if there's something on display.

818
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: But anyway, this is a great case. I think it's

819
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: really upsetting and sad, but also I think you learn

820
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: a lot from a case like this, especially with the

821
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: profiling part, which I know you enjoy too, But I

822
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: think we got a little smattering of everything in this case.

823
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: A lot of discussion about the victims, a lot of

824
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: you know, talk about blood this and you know what

825
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: this means and what slab a bacon, which I really

826
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: didn't want to know about. But a well rounded case,

827
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: I would say, Paul holes.

828
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: Nope, for sure, you know. And it just reminds me

829
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 2: the one Iowa case that I actually did get involved

830
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 2: with was basically an axe murder. A couple hatcheted to death,

831
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: probably not an axe, but a hatchet in their hotel

832
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: room in Iowa. And the likely suspect was a transient

833
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,919
Speaker 2: guy that I think was involved in other hatchet murders

834
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 2: of men, you know, in other states. So it's very similar.

835
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: But this case happened in nineteen eighty and so obviously

836
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: no overlap with the nineteen twelve case. Probably not, But

837
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: something's going on in Iowa. What's up with Iowa in axes?

838
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: It's up with California, Paul. I mean, you have a

839
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: lot of murderers there too.

840
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 2: California is a busy area.

841
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: Okay, next week we will probably not have a California story,

842
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: although I would welcome a good California story. I don't

843
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: know if we've had one for a while.

844
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:24,439
Speaker 2: It has been a while.

845
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: We'll see and I will see you next.

846
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 2: Week, all right, looking forward to it as always me too.

847
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

848
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash

849
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

850
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

851
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

852
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

853
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:55,760
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

854
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,959
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Crane.

855
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

856
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

857
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

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Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

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Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

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Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

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Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

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Speaker 2: Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.