WEBVTT - How to Make a Deal at Sundance 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:10.600 Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties weekly podcasts featuring conversations with 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:14.360 industry leaders about the business of entertainment. Today's guest is 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.400 Paul Davidson, head of Film and TV for The Orchard. 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.279 The independent distributor is expected to be one of the 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.720 most active companies at this year's Sundance Film Festival. In 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:28.200 preparation for Sundance, Brett Lange, Varieties Executive editor of Film 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.040 and Media, spoke with Davidson about his approach to dealmaking, 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.400 why documentaries are all the rage again, and how the 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:42.320 Orchard distinguishes itself from other studios. Hello, I'm Brent Lane, 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.480 and I'm the Variety Executive editor of Film and Media, 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.720 and I'm joint here today at our New York studio 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.879 with Paul Davidson, who is the executive vice president of 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:57.040 Film and Television at the Orchard, one of the premier 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.440 and the studios working in the space right now. Uh, 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:04.759 the Orchard is very busy this awards season. Um, they 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:09.080 have l and Hell coming out, an acclaimed foreign film, 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:13.679 and also the Party's just beginning. Upcoming films of the 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:18.319 Orchard include Birds of Passage, The Hummingbird Project, Date Like Sleep, 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.480 and under the Eiffel Tower. Very pleased to have Paul 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:23.960 with me today. Thanks, I'm glad to be here to 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:28.200 see you. So, Paul, UM, I think to start, why 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:30.559 don't we talk a little bit about Sundance. The slate 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.000 has been announced, at least the bulk of the slate. 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.440 I'm interested. Will you be at the festival this year? 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.240 Will you be looking for product when you hit Park City? 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.759 Of course? I mean this is Sundance, is the pendulate 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:49.560 Um festival for us next to can in Toronto. UM, 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:51.280 so we will be there in force as we have 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:55.000 been for the last set of years. It's interesting UM 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.520 to watch UH and and anticipate what we think will 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.320 happen there, especially with respect a competition at the festival. 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.600 One of the trends that we had seen mostly out 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.840 of two thousand, sixteen and seventeen was this scenario where 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.120 you had the s the streaming services who had yet 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:14.799 to really spin up their production and development you know entities, 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:17.359 and so as a result, everything was getting bit up 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:20.639 fairly high. You were seeing huge you know, price tags 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.960 on content. And then what we saw over the last 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.600 year specifically, which we anticipated, was this change in the 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.240 marketplace where the Amazons and the Netflix is of the 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:35.200 world already had most of their product um in development, production, 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.880 and some of the other indies were also starting production, 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:42.320 development and production themselves, and so um it actually regulated 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:44.320 last year, and that's something that you know, we we 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.240 anticipate to happen this year as well, and we're looking 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:49.639 forward to the slate. When when you talk, when you 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.320 say the word regulated, you mean that prices came back 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:54.320 down to earth a little bit, Yes, they did. Last 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:57.720 year was a good example of of movies selling for 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.760 what you would expect them to sell. We're based on 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.440 how you model a movie and what you think, you know, 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:05.560 looking at historical comps of what a movie can do. 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:08.640 You know, that's ever, every distributor who's picking up a 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.680 movie has their set of numbers that they're they're running 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.000 when they're looking at what they can pay for a film, 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:18.200 and typically Netflix and Amazon were always paying you know, 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.280 two times that, maybe three times that some of that 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.200 because they're buying out the lifetime of the product and 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.920 so filmmakers and producers and investors will never have the 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:30.680 opportunity for upside and so they're compensating them for that. 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.280 Um But yeah, there was you know there it's going 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.520 to regulate regulated last year, it'll regulate more this year 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.119 as well. The only kind of wild card this year 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:45.280 is documentaries because this last year, documentaries you know, gross 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.800 revenue at the box office that we've never seen over 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.600 the last ten years. But before this year, typically we 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.200 would expect four or five movies to break two million 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.440 of the box office from a documentary standpoint, and this 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:01.040 year you're seeing huge number. There's i mean ten million 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:04.200 plus on you know, five six seven movies this year. 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:08.640 So the expectation is, uh, the agents and the the 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:10.840 sales as agents will be coming to town with an 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:15.680 expectation to um get much higher value for the documentaries 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:20.920 based on the potential opportunity for docs to explode again 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.560 next year. So that's a good question because it seems 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:28.279 like in in Hollywood often, um, you know, there's a 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.719 lot of imitation, right, things that work. Studios are eager 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:33.560 to sort of do the same thing that worked for 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.920 someone else. How do you, you know, balance the fact 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.640 that documentaries seem to be doing quite well right now, uh, 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:44.880 with maybe the risk that that's something of an anomaly, right, 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.680 that maybe there were just a few projects that really 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:50.640 resonated with people that it's not some kind of larger 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:56.480 popular embrace of that medium. When you're making your decisions, well, 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.080 I think that's what you have to do. You can't 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:01.840 get caught up in the the you know, the buzz 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.400 and the business of it all. You have to stay 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:06.840 true to what you think a film is going to do. 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:10.039 It's it's tough because suddenly you're looking at a list 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.360 of comps from the last year that are generating you know, 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:15.480 five to ten million dollars at the box office, and 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:18.400 those always are these outliers that come into play when 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:20.240 you're you know, modeling out what you think you can 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.160 pay for a film. But our philosophy, I mean, we 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.120 we're not We're not spending at the upper echelon um 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.279 to where we're going to drop, you know, millions and 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:30.799 millions of dollars on a documentary. It's just the reality 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.279 because you have to plan for the scenario where it 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.400 doesn't resonate. There have been films in the past we've 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.640 picked up um documentaries that we thought were very theatrical 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.520 that didn't necessarily deliver in that window the way we'd expected. 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.839 And you know, if you if you overspend in that scenario, 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.240 it can really ruin your year, and you you know, 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:53.080 you just have to be cognizant and careful about how 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:58.039 how aggressive you get. What about the slate on paper 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:00.640 and obviously a lot of time as you go into 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:02.320 these festivals and you think, oh, these are going to 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.680 be the movies that really deliver. Maybe it's because they 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.279 have a big star, they have a director who's who's 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.320 proven themselves in the past, and you know, lo and behold, 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.000 there's some surprise that that you never saw coming, that 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.960 that starts some kind of bidding more. But on paper, 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.800 what do you think about UM this year selection? Do? 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.520 Do these films look commercial? Compelling? What? What are your 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:28.080 sort of impressions? I think with respect to the narrative 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.560 films that are at the festival this year, there's there's 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:35.520 a good handful of commercial projects. I think, UM Late Night, 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.400 which is the Mini Kaling film. Um, we've been tracking 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:40.479 for some time. We read the script, it's a very 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:44.520 commercial film. UM, Emma Thompson, I mean is in there 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:46.120 in that film as well? It's a it's a great 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:49.080 cast of characters and you know, if it delivers, it 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.720 could could be a big sick esque um, maybe not 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.520 that big, but I think it has the potential to 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.800 attract studios who are looking for additional content. You know, 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:03.080 I could see that if it works, that's a movie 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:06.800 that goes for you know, four to six million in 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.800 domestic MG, and that potentially goes you know, maybe that 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.480 is an Amazon, maybe that's a lions Gate. Perhaps that's 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.200 a paramount if it's at that level. The funny and 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:18.080 sad thing. At the same time, as you know, we 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.440 say we were we're looking for movies that are um, 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.520 we're passionate about that are really going to deliver. But 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.360 also if they're perfect, they're probably going to be at 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:31.160 the level of expense that a studio would suddenly jump into. 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:36.560 So you know, you you're always looking for the movies 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.040 that are not perfect. Like we have this joke where 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.920 when we're watching films at festivals that are comedies, especially 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:45.720 a we don't laugh because we don't want to laugh 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.320 and contribute to the overall perception in a in an 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:53.559 audience with buyers that the movie is amazing and every 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.120 laugh costs us more money. So it's like you kind 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.800 of live in this world of like it's it's really good, 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.120 but it's not amazing gonna cost this, It's not gonna 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.400 cost that um. But anyway, so Late Night is one 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.080 of those examples of it's for sure going to be 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:10.760 a commercial film. I think there are there are new filmmakers, 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.520 so new producers and new filmmakers bringing content to Sundance. 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.160 That um, they've gone through the Sundance Labs and we've 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.160 been aware of these titles for some time and they've 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:21.880 kind of made it through over the last three years 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.960 finally to to green light into you know, physical production. 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:29.120 There's a film called Wolf Hour with Naomi Watts originally 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.120 with Jennifer Connolly. This was a film that has made 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.840 it through the labs for some time and said in 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:39.200 the seventies and could be a good performance for Naomi. Um. 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.360 There's a film and I'm gonna and it's horrible on 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:45.000 spacing on the name, it's um. Alec Baldwin is in it. 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.800 Judith light Um. It's a kind of a New York 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:50.480 based comedy about two sisters who find out that their 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.600 mother is still alive and she's a soap opera actress. 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.840 That's another one that went through the Sundance Labs that um. 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.680 We've read the script we know that the talent and 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:01.560 we you know, kind of been waiting to see what 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.760 was gonna happen with that. Um, I'm trying to think 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.319 across the board with some of the other films that 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.720 are there. There's not there's not a huge amount of 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.840 like big sick type films this year, but I think 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.040 that the the slate of films is a little broader 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.800 um than last year. Last year felt to me personally, 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.120 um like, um, it was very much a response to 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.040 kind of what was going on in our world and 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.280 in the country, and um, you know some of the 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:35.040 issues that I think were present in representation of women 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.600 and minorities and African Americans. I mean, you saw on 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.319 the heels of Moonlight winning Best Picture, there was the 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:44.679 Sundance slate was very kind of it was darker. It 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.840 was kind of holding up a mirror to society and 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:49.960 what was going on in a way that there was 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.880 a lot of powerful films, but when it came down 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.880 to what film is going to generate money at the 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.480 box office, there were less of those movies. There were 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.040 films that came out of Sundance last year that, um, 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:05.760 we're great and critically acclaimed, but just didn't connect. And 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:09.240 I think that that's an example of audiences, you know, 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.000 having had experienced that one great film the previous year 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.880 that filled a certain genre um or spoke to them 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.600 in a certain way, and then there were three or 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.640 four of them the following year, and people just you know, 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.440 reached a point of where of saturation with respect to that. 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.800 And I think you'll you're gonna see a lot of 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.960 docks this year go for a significant amount of money 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.199 and they're not all going to delivered. UM. Cameron Crowe 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:36.760 has a documentary he's produced UM that I think if 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.040 the music doc that that could do well. There's a 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.080 UM there's a doc called the I think the Amazing 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:46.160 Jonathan about this kind of quirky magician. His story sounds 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.360 like it could be fun. UM. You know, Apollo eleven 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.560 is there, which is already being distributed by Neon UM. 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.679 And we saw we saw footage of that almost a 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:58.840 year ago. We were you know, it came down to 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.080 I believe Neon and us looking at that movie and 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:05.160 that's the spectacular film where they have all of this 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.840 amazing footage from the Apollo eleven missions that people have 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:12.079 never seen that were UM remastered in four K. I 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.400 mean it's it's it's an experience. So that's the other thing. 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.080 There's a lot of movies that already have UM distribution 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.719 across Netflix across and Neon has that title. I think 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.440 has three titles. We have Birds of Passage there. So 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.640 there you that becomes the trend that we see more 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.120 and more. We saw it can this last year is 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.360 when you look at the films that are available, there's 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.120 a higher percentage of films that are already spoken for 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.360 UM and so just it limits the titles that are available. 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:42.560 But I think it it kind of it all balances 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:44.320 out in the wash at the end of the day 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.960 because you have less streaming services, less companies that are 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.680 looking for products are already producing or have already pre 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.120 acquired those those films. Um. You were talking about a 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:58.199 movie like Late Night, Um, that that seems very commercial, 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.520 that could sell for four to six million dollars. UM. 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:05.640 When you when you purchase something for that price, what 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:07.760 do you actually need to do with the box office 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:10.960 in order to make that back? And when you factor 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.679 in marketing and other kinds of costs, well, um, you know, 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.559 when we look at the numbers behind acquiring a movie, 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.520 we're looking at all the windows were attributing a certain 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.240 dollar amount to you know, you're making the box office right, 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:30.320 so you can calculate that Typically your SPoD your pay 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.080 one deals are tied to a percentage of the box office, 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.480 So you can calculate if you believe, based on comps 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.280 that that four million dollar pickup is going to do 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:41.960 eight million at the box office, then you're probably gonna 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:46.280 do in your first pay window of that number. Um 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.679 you look at comps on digital and cable, the ancillary 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.400 pieces at the end of the day. From our perspective, 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.360 and we look at a film and a P and 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.600 L of a movie where we're hoping to target somewhere 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:03.120 in like um net profit range. So we use our comps, 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.360 we map it out. We you know, we be put 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:06.679 in there what we're going to spend on P and A, 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.240 but we think it takes I mean typically in the industry, 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.120 the modest way of thinking about it is, if you 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.760 are expecting eight million at the box office, you probably 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:16.679 need to spend close to eight million to make that 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.600 in in your box office. We've been fortunate and some 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.520 movies in the past where word of mouth really is significant, 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.960 like a Hunt for the Wilder People. I don't know 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:27.880 that we've we've shared it before, but I don't mind 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.360 sharing it. I mean, we spent one point two million 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:32.160 on P and A for that movie and generated close 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:33.840 to five million of the box office. Like when you 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.959 can do that, that's a word of mouth film. It's 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.480 it's kind of tough to do that. I mean, it's 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.360 it doesn't happen often. But where you you can spend 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.400 so modestly, then you're in you're in an amazing shape. 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:47.920 But typically it's you know, spend eight to make eight, 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:49.920 and so you're just you have to build out all 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.280 those numbers and ensure that you're seeing you know, you 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.080 believe we do you know a low base and high 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.000 case scenario. Where do we think that base case scenario is? 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.400 And and then that tells us what we can spend. 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.320 And have you found that that when you sort of 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.480 map out the potential lifespan of a film that you 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.520 require one of these festivals, is it pretty accurate? I mean, 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:17.000 are you you know? It's um, It's it's tough to say, 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:22.680 I mean, um, more often than not, it's tough. It's 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:24.920 I would say, probably, you know we're building a slate. 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:26.440 So when we look at, you know, the eight to 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:31.560 ten theatricals were acquiring a year. If we've been conservative 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:33.880 and we've we've matched, we've kind of locked to that 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.320 base case once some are gonna over perform, some are 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.280 gonna underperform. And generally, at the end of the day, 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.000 unless you have a big failure or a huge success, 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.880 your your singles and doubles maybe overperform and your your 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:48.040 home runs, don't. It kind of balances out on a 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:52.080 title by title basis. You know, do those numbers? How 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.920 close are we do those original expectations? If I don't 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:59.720 think anybody's anybody's great at it. It's all instinct and comps. 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.040 Maybe sixty percent of the time, six seventy percent of 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.840 the time. Are you in the neighborhood plus or minus? 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:11.280 You know of the number, but it's just things you know, like, 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.680 for example, we picked up the Hummingbird Project at Toronto 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:18.680 and UM for it's a great movie, very modest MG, 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.320 and we haven't even released the movie yet, And some 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.640 of the ancillary windows we've already secured are above and 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.400 beyond what we've spent to get the movie. So we know, 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.960 going into a movie like that. Wow, we the first 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.480 pay window was so significant for that film because of 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.960 the cast with Salamahayak and Jesse Eisenberg and scars Guard that, Um, 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.800 we're feeling great going into that movie because you know, 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.200 spend P and A is basically the only thing we 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:45.200 have to kind of recoup with all the other windows. 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:47.960 So sometimes you just you you luck out in a 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:49.760 way you never expected. I mean, the movies that we 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.080 distribute from Taycho with TV, which is what we do 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.840 in the Shadows and Hunt for the Wilder People, these 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:59.280 movies were very modest pickups. They've you know, collectively probably 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.240 made more money the two of those movies and any 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.160 any other film that we have in our slate. Um collectively, 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.800 they probably generated ten to twenty million dollars in net 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.760 revenue um because they become they become these word of 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.280 mouth cult classics. And so you know, when you find 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.920 those films, as many people have found this year, when 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.040 you see some of the box office for these indies films, 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.520 you you double down and you you keep building on that. 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:26.640 One thing I always thought was really interesting about what 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.240 you guys do at the Orchard is that you believe 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:34.160 in transparency when it comes to how you make money, 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.960 you actually share them publicly on certain films. Why did 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:41.400 you decide to do that? I mean, nobody else seems 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:44.920 remotely interested in sharing that kind of information. Well, it's it, 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:47.160 guess it's it could be dangerous for some. I mean 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.920 the origin, you know, the origins of the Orchard UM 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.480 first and foremost are based in a twenty year history 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:58.120 of global music distribution, where labels and artists are it's 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.360 very important to them to understand how they're how they're 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:03.760 sorry their films and movies, how their calm, their content, 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:06.920 their albums, their songs, that tracks are performing. And so 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:09.720 from a very early stage that DNA was built into 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.679 the Orchard to share and be transparent. And we have 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.760 engineers have built these these back end dashboards that allow 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.840 those those clients to see in real time how money 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.919 is being spent against their films and where you know, 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.240 where the money is coming from the digital platforms. So 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:27.119 for us, when we really through gasoline on the fire 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.320 for building the film division back and four team, we 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:31.720 wanted to do the same and what we heard from 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:36.200 filmmakers was one of the major frustrations was the two 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.200 things UM they have no had no idea how their 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.680 movie was doing when they were going to recoup the 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:46.199 recoupment of the investment profitability, no no awareness whatsoever. They 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.520 would get kind of a statement in the mail a 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:50.879 year later and had to call somebody to figure out 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.320 what it even meant. Um and collaboration, that's the other 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.840 thing that I'll talk about in a sec But for us, 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.239 we heard that loud and clear, and so you know, 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:01.399 we doubled down on it. And so, you know, a 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:03.680 couple of years ago as a you know, we've continued 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:07.640 to internally build and um this dashboard in the back 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.600 end that not only shows filmmakers what they're making in 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.720 real time, but does this kind of projection of here 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:15.840 the contracted dollars. We know we're coming we have a 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.160 deal at Netflix for the next three years. This much 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.760 money is coming in. Here's where we think profitability is 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:24.919 going to happen. And this is all kind of you know, 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:29.119 under under the main the guys of what we initially 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:30.760 green with the movie at what we thought it was 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:32.639 gonna do. So they can see all of these things 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.399 and and we're super We're super transparent about everything. We 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.440 I'm always surprised when I hear from filmmakers. We'll get 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:41.760 an offer for a pay one license, and we'll call 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.320 them up and we'll say, we have these three platforms. 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.879 It's HBO and it's Netflix, and it's Amazon, and here's 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:49.600 why we would want to go with this one and 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.720 here's what it means. And filmmakers say, we never get 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.200 calls about this. Nobody. They just call us up and say, 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.280 your movie is gonna be on direct TV and that's 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.959 where it's going. And so for us, it's it requires 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.119 a lot of time and effort, but at the end 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:07.280 of the day, I think the effort far outweighs the 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.120 downside of being honest with them about what's going on, 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:13.920 and that that's the one problem I think that most 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.840 filmmakers have when they come out of experiences. A bad 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.080 experience with the distributor is typically it's colored by a 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:24.120 lack of communication, lack of transparency, and a lack of 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.520 um aligned expectations. You know, if you don't when people 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:30.800 ask for an awards campaign, and this is here's a 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.000 great example. We went to Cannon, we picked up Birds 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.159 of Passage and we said, Birds of Passage, this is 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.920 our our focus. For an awards campaign. Um, we told 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.280 that to the filmmakers and we said to them, we're 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.760 not going to pick up another movie to compete with that, 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.520 that we are committed to this plan. And then we 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.520 saw l Angel or if I'm being good with the accent, 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.080 l ang Hell is what they say in Argentina. And 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:57.240 they came to us and I said, I love the film, 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.320 that we already committed to Birds of Passage the only 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:01.879 way we would distribute it as you need to be 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.200 aware that we are not doing an awards campaign. We're 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.720 doing it for birds And if you're okay with that, 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:08.919 knowing going in we're not doing X Y and Z, 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:11.560 we're not spending X Y and Z, then I need 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:13.159 to go back to the Birds of Passage team and 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:16.000 make sure they're okay with it. That's just how how 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.480 we approach it. We find that it just at the 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:20.520 end of the day, is a better way to interact 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.480 with folks. And El Angel was very appreciative and they 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:25.720 still wanted us to distribute their film, and the Birds 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:29.640 of Passage filmmakers were were happy for us to help 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:31.840 them out in that way, and that that kind of 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:34.440 is like an example of how how we deal with 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:36.920 our filmmakers and it, as I said, it's it takes 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:38.479 a lot of time and effort, and sometimes we look 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:40.879 at ourselves and we say, oh my gosh, we we 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.760 have to do how many calls this week to socialize this, this, 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:48.479 this and this. But it's a better experience. UM. So 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.199 you were talking about coming on board and I believe 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:56.879 to help launch this film enterprise for for the Orchard. 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.400 Why did the Orchard feel there was an opportunity here. 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.520