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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's your pals, Josh and Chuck, and we

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Speaker 1: wanted to record an intro to this episode because, um,

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Speaker 1: when we first recorded it and got it ready to

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Speaker 1: publish and edit, um, things were a lot different in

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Speaker 1: America because that was like a week ago. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And I think the events of the past week or

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Speaker 1: two have taught us that something like this podcast episode

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Speaker 1: is more relevant than ever and it just kind of

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Speaker 1: worked out that way. Yeah, And we also wanted to

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Speaker 1: say that we grieved the death of George Floyd and

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Speaker 1: everybody who's ever died unfairly at the hands of the police,

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Speaker 1: and we stand with Black Lives Matter and anyone who's

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Speaker 1: fighting for justice in the United States. Absolutely. So when

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Speaker 1: you hear this episode on Tienamen Square and think, well,

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Speaker 1: that could never happen much less in the United States,

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Speaker 1: be careful because that's the kind of dangerous thinking that

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Speaker 1: you can get us all in trouble. And on with

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Speaker 1: the show. Welcome to Stuff. You should know a production

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Speaker 1: of I heart ratings as how stuff works. Hey, and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles

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Speaker 1: w Chuck Bryan over there. Uh, and it's just the

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Speaker 1: two of us, Chuck and I decided we can make

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Speaker 1: it if we try just the two of us. Chuckers

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Speaker 1: and I. How long did you plan that, buddy? It

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Speaker 1: just came pouring right out of my brain through my

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Speaker 1: mouth and just lay indo with a thud on the desk. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: r I p to the great Bill Withers. Oh. I

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Speaker 1: was thinking more, um Austin Powers. M hmm, yeah, alright,

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Speaker 1: what Austin Powers? He died a long time ago, right,

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Speaker 1: You got me there for a second, Yes, you did.

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Speaker 1: Mike Myers had passed. I thought Mike Myers had passed,

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Speaker 1: and then I was like, wait to Dr Evil died?

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Speaker 1: I was like, wait, Dr Evil's not real. It was

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Speaker 1: really confusing for a second there. Man. So I last

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Speaker 1: night did one of the things that I loved doing

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Speaker 1: as part of our work, Chuck, which is watched a

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Speaker 1: really great documentary, paid for it, but you love that

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Speaker 1: great There's a really good documentary by Frontline PBS show

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Speaker 1: about tank Man, which you probably girl. Tank Man totally

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Speaker 1: different kind of thing. This is not Lori Petty. This

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Speaker 1: is an unknown person who no one, as far as

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Speaker 1: anyone knows, knows their name. But even if you're familiar

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Speaker 1: with tank Man, just the name. You've probably if you

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Speaker 1: live outside of China, seen this picture. It's a picture

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Speaker 1: of just as a lone man um wearing a white

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Speaker 1: kind of dress shirt and black pants, holding a couple

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Speaker 1: of shopping bags to the side, staring down a column

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Speaker 1: of heavy tanks that he has stopped single handedly just

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Speaker 1: by standing in front of him. Yeah. I mean it's

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Speaker 1: one of those uh, indelible images that if you were

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Speaker 1: you know, it still resonates obviously, but if you were, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, cognizant of the news in nine then you

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Speaker 1: could not escape this image or forget it. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I mean what you were close to around eighteen or so,

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Speaker 1: so I'm sure this really had a big impact on you.

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Speaker 1: And it was going on right yeah, I mean just

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Speaker 1: just had graduated high school, so like this must have

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Speaker 1: really kind of raised the hackles on the back of

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Speaker 1: your neck and gotten you pretty worked up like the

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Speaker 1: rest of the world, I would guess. Yeah, I remember

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Speaker 1: it being kind of one of the first big political

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Speaker 1: events that uh got my head out of my butt. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it did that for a lot of people too. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like what happened that that day or those days like

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Speaker 1: think June three and fourth of nine, the communist regime

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Speaker 1: that had a iron grip on the country and still

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Speaker 1: does today, maybe even more so today, Um almost fell.

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Speaker 1: It was almost toppled by popular uprising, and to stamp

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Speaker 1: it out, the government went to the most extreme measures possible,

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Speaker 1: which was commanding the army to murder citizens. Unarmed, peacefully

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Speaker 1: protesting citizens were gunned down in the streets like like

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Speaker 1: like they were enemy combatants, basically in the in the

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Speaker 1: their own city in Beijing, And it was just a

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Speaker 1: horrific thing that managed to kind of trickle out and

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Speaker 1: definitely captured the world's attention, pulled the world's head out

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Speaker 1: of its butt, as you would say. Yeah, so you know,

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Speaker 1: to tell the story, we need to go back in

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Speaker 1: time a little bit. And big thanks to our pal

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Speaker 1: Dave Ruse for helping us out with this one. This

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Speaker 1: is very good. In fact, it was on a different

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Speaker 1: laptop and I kind of forgot it was sitting in

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Speaker 1: my folder when I it has been there for like

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Speaker 1: a month or so, right, yeah, it's been there a while,

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Speaker 1: And then I saw it. I was like, oh wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, we got tenement square on the burner. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: they did a great job. And we have to travel

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Speaker 1: back in time to uh, previous to nineteen nine, when

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Speaker 1: the sort of feeling among students in China was that,

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Speaker 1: you know what, this communism isn't working out so great,

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Speaker 1: and we want to start making a little bit of noise.

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Speaker 1: And we're not saying to topple our government or anything

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Speaker 1: like that, but we're saying, um, let's get the corruption

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Speaker 1: in check, and let's maybe um get some free speech

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Speaker 1: going on and see some free press and free expression.

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Speaker 1: And they thought they could get there. Uh, they thought

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Speaker 1: they could get there, which is what makes this really

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Speaker 1: really sad, among many other things. Yeah, and then even

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Speaker 1: sider than that to me is they almost got there,

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Speaker 1: you know, like this was I mean, this was close.

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Speaker 1: This is like a hair's breadth away. Where they brought

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Speaker 1: this so so much to the government store step and

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Speaker 1: laid this at their feet that the government had to

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Speaker 1: at least consider, if not openly to one another, at

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Speaker 1: least you know, to themselves, like do we just bow

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Speaker 1: to the will of the people and just say, okay,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna do things differently. Like it was a big,

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Speaker 1: big deal. It was a big deal, and um, I

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Speaker 1: guess preemptively, we should say we're going to do our

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Speaker 1: best with with some of the pronunciations of the names. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they are tough and well as usual, we'll do our

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Speaker 1: best and probably failed and stop short of being perfect.

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Speaker 1: I think we we learned our lesson on the underground city.

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Speaker 1: At least, we're not going to pronounce X like X right. Right.

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Speaker 1: So the students had a little bit of wind in

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Speaker 1: their sales because their college students, and that's what college

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Speaker 1: students are like, that's why we love them. And they

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Speaker 1: thought they had um an Ally who was a pro

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Speaker 1: reform leader and pretty high up in the Communist party

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Speaker 1: and hugh yao bang sounds are about right, okay. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He was forced out of power in eighty seven, though,

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Speaker 1: and when he died in April April fifteenth, nineteen nine,

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Speaker 1: the memorializing in the morning of his death is what

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Speaker 1: really kind of kick started this whole process that led

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Speaker 1: up to June three. Yeah, and in the late eighties,

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Speaker 1: what you call the president of China was named Dan

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Speaker 1: Jao Ping, and he was he had been in charge

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Speaker 1: for a while. But in addition to the president in

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Speaker 1: a communist country, you also have the leaders of the

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Speaker 1: Communist Party. They're not exactly like lateral, but they're pretty

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Speaker 1: high up. You have like a prime minister, you have

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Speaker 1: the leader of the party, the general secretary. Then you

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Speaker 1: also have the president of the country, and Um Dang

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Speaker 1: was the President of China at the time. But there

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Speaker 1: within the party and within the leadership of the country,

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Speaker 1: including Hugh and he was kind of the face of

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Speaker 1: this movement, there was this idea that, Okay, the Maoist

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Speaker 1: Revolution happened. Mao was great, but we we can't run

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Speaker 1: a country just living by these kind of lofty principles

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Speaker 1: that Mao espoused. We need to kind of get a

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Speaker 1: little more loose gripped here, at least economically um And

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Speaker 1: there was a whole contingent, led again by Hugh that

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Speaker 1: that basically said, maybe we should kind of ease up

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Speaker 1: on the government planning a little bit and let a

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Speaker 1: little bit of free market go and see what happens.

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Speaker 1: We really think that, like there's gonna be a lot

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Speaker 1: less starvation, a lot less poverty if we just led

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Speaker 1: a little bit of this stuff into there. So there

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Speaker 1: was this kind of progressive movement. But then when Hugh

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Speaker 1: when this when these protests kind of started in. They

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Speaker 1: basically showed Hugh the door, like you were saying he was.

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Speaker 1: He was removed from office because he had kind of

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Speaker 1: demonstrated that that level of like loosening of the grip

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Speaker 1: on the people would lead to things like protests and demonstrations.

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Speaker 1: But it was too late. They had opened the door

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Speaker 1: now and then, like you said, when he died, that

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Speaker 1: was that was kind of the the lip match that

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Speaker 1: got thrown onto this powder keg. And I take it

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Speaker 1: you're on a first name basis now because it's easier

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Speaker 1: to pronounce Hugh. Hugh was actually his last name. In China,

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Speaker 1: they say last name first. Yes. So I'm doing I'm

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Speaker 1: having my um my dumpling and eating it too. Oh man,

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Speaker 1: that's the best way to have a dumpling. So uh

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Speaker 1: and I learned something new today too, thanks Chuck. That's

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Speaker 1: basically why I wake up in the morning. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: what happened is uh, you know, he died on ape.

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Speaker 1: Bunch of students, like thousands of students got together in

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Speaker 1: Tianamen Square to mourn his passing. And Tianamen Square, we

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Speaker 1: should say, is it's an enormous place. It's the largest

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Speaker 1: public space in the world. Right in the middle of Beijing. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it is just it's the town center, unlike any town

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Speaker 1: center in the world. Yeah, there's like no trees any where.

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Speaker 1: It's just flat and then edged by enormous public buildings.

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Speaker 1: It makes you feel very small. Yeah, and it's also

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Speaker 1: a perfect place to get like thousands and thousands and

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Speaker 1: thousands of people together. And this is what happened during

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Speaker 1: the funeral celebration in Tianamen Square. And it didn't go

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Speaker 1: on for too long before students started to sort of

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Speaker 1: use this as an opportunity to not only mourn someone

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Speaker 1: that they believed was going to champion their cause, but

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Speaker 1: they said, we can use this now and let's just

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Speaker 1: let's just camp out un let's hold some speeches, and

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Speaker 1: let's sort of start giving our demands for a political reform,

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Speaker 1: like throwing peace signs and just basically peaceful protests that

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Speaker 1: you would imagine students from. And most of them came

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Speaker 1: from Beijing University, which from what I understand, is the

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Speaker 1: the premier elite university in the entire country. So these

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Speaker 1: were like the children of the elites, as it were.

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Speaker 1: There's definitely a measure of tolerance of this going on

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Speaker 1: whereas had it been you know, just a popular uprising

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Speaker 1: or popular protests from the start, they probably would have

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Speaker 1: been treated a lot more roughly, and it certainly would

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Speaker 1: not have been allowed to have go on as long

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Speaker 1: as it had. Yeah, and you know, it's interesting you

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Speaker 1: mentioned the um the sort of split and ideologies within

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Speaker 1: the party, which is really interesting to think about now. Um,

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Speaker 1: but they were split about what to do about these demonstrations. Um.

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Speaker 1: This was the biggest civil protests, longest running since communism

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Speaker 1: had taken hold in ninety nine. And there were some

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Speaker 1: people it wasn't just like all right, let's go in

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Speaker 1: there and mow him down. There was a complete faction

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Speaker 1: within the party that was like, you know what, Um,

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Speaker 1: these are students and they want what's best for us,

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Speaker 1: and maybe we should listen to them a little bit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because it's like you said, they were saying down with communism,

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Speaker 1: down with the China Any's Communist Party. They were they

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Speaker 1: were saying, like down with corruption, and you know, we

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Speaker 1: wanna we want a little more free speech, like some

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Speaker 1: really basic stuff that didn't require the entire system to

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Speaker 1: be overthrown, which was I think another reason why they

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Speaker 1: were kind of allowed to continue. And then yeah, like

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Speaker 1: you're saying, there were sympathetic members of the Communist Party,

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Speaker 1: high up in the party who were like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: we should just you know, maybe hear him out or

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Speaker 1: just let it this thing fizzle out. But then on

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Speaker 1: the other side was a guy named Lee Ping, and

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Speaker 1: he was the he was the antagonist in this whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Most people paying him as the villain um, but I

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Speaker 1: read an article about how he's actually the fall guy,

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Speaker 1: that it was really Dang Jao Ping who was the president,

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Speaker 1: who was the true architect of all of this, and

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Speaker 1: that Lee Ping, while he gets all of the um

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Speaker 1: notorious credit, yeah for this whole thing, he he he didn't.

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Speaker 1: He didn't. He wasn't the architect of it. But he

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Speaker 1: also didn't stop his boss, um Danjo Ping, from from

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Speaker 1: carrying this out or from being the architect of it too.

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Speaker 1: So it's not like he was a good guy. He

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Speaker 1: was easy to hate, I think from what I read,

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Speaker 1: and it made him an easy target of the protests

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Speaker 1: and then the aftermath as well. Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's you know, I think people it's easy to paint

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Speaker 1: a good guy and a bad guy in a situation

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Speaker 1: like this, and he was painted definitely is the bad guy.

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Speaker 1: And again we're not saying that he was some awesome person.

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Speaker 1: But on the other side was the Communist Party General

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Speaker 1: secretary and his name was Zal's Yang and he was

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Speaker 1: the one that was, you know, more sympathetic to the

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Speaker 1: cause basically, Yeah, and so he was kind of holding

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Speaker 1: back Danjo Ping's um worst impulses and saying like, no,

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Speaker 1: we just need to kind of like approach this peacefully

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Speaker 1: or whatever. And he got removed to Um, which I

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Speaker 1: really think kind of highlights just how uh how much

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Speaker 1: crossing or opposing Dang Jo Ping where it would get

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Speaker 1: you get your removed at best. And actually jaos Yang

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Speaker 1: he Um spent when he was removed from office, he

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Speaker 1: spent the rest of his life under house arrest, because

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Speaker 1: I mean that's what happens when you are removed from office.

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Speaker 1: There they just say go home and don't leave again

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Speaker 1: here under political quarantine. Yeah. So, you know, they had

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Speaker 1: seen this happening all around them. The Soviet Union was crumbling. Um,

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Speaker 1: they saw countries, communist countries, people just like these students

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Speaker 1: kind of rising up and saying that they've had enough.

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Speaker 1: So they were nervous and when zalox Yang went on,

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Speaker 1: he went out of town, basically went on to Korea

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Speaker 1: on a state visit. This is when Lee Ping said,

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Speaker 1: all right, now is our time. This guy's out of

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Speaker 1: the country, and he's like, basically, we can we can

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Speaker 1: start the the first piece to toppling these students. And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't initially a violent piece. It was an ad.

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Speaker 1: It was in April. It was an ad in the

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Speaker 1: People's Daily, the state newspaper, and it was an editorial

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Speaker 1: basically that just denounced the demonstrations. And that was their

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Speaker 1: first sort of shot fired. Was your friend is out

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Speaker 1: of town. Well they didn't say that, but because he

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Speaker 1: was out of town, they said, we're going to run

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Speaker 1: an editorial denouncing this. Yeah, And they basically said, look,

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Speaker 1: these students are being misguided. That the whole thing started

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Speaker 1: earnestly as a memorial for UH, for Hugh Um, but

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Speaker 1: that that it had been taken advantage of by probably

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Speaker 1: outside agitators, maybe even like plants from other governments, who

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Speaker 1: were fomenting like a popular uprising out of this um

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Speaker 1: genuine you know, sorrow for this guy who was you know,

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Speaker 1: a real real advocate for them Um. But regardless of

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Speaker 1: how it started or what's going on. We can't we

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Speaker 1: can't abide this any longer. And if we do, there's

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Speaker 1: going to be I think they put it, will never

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Speaker 1: have another day's piece unless we act. Um. They didn't

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Speaker 1: say brutally resolutely. Unless it's checked resolutely, they said, which

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Speaker 1: is then in the margin it said, see brutally right exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean like that's not checked resolutely? Is against a

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Speaker 1: popular protest? Is this menacing stuff? Should we take a break?

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Speaker 1: More menacing stuff? All right, we'll take a break and

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Speaker 1: we'll come back and talk about the effect that this

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Speaker 1: editorial had right after this stop No, alrighty, So they

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Speaker 1: ran this editorial. They said that the uh, they would

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Speaker 1: be checked resolutely if they didn't disperse, and they thought

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Speaker 1: that that would do the job basically, But all that

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Speaker 1: that had the complete opposite effect. Like literally overnight, people

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Speaker 1: all over China, four hundred cities across China had people

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Speaker 1: coming out and protesting because they were invigored by these

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Speaker 1: students and what they saw going on in Beijing. And

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Speaker 1: I think it says Dave had an estimate here of

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Speaker 1: one inten citizens took to the streets and these were

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Speaker 1: people of all social strata, all walks of life in China. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: one intend in Beijing, but then tends to hundreds of

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Speaker 1: millions of protesters all pouring out into the streets and

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Speaker 1: cities across China, like they had a huge problem overnight

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Speaker 1: on their hands. Like they they people were like that

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Speaker 1: was the that was that editorial was the exact wrong move. Move. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was the wrong move. And uh, things just kind

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Speaker 1: of went on this way for a little while until

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Speaker 1: I think about in mid May when Gorba Chef was

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Speaker 1: coming to visit in China. So they said, this is

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Speaker 1: the perfect chance, let's stage a hunger strike and Tienamen Square.

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Speaker 1: And this was not a good look for the Chinese

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Speaker 1: Communist Party. They were not happy that this is going on.

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Speaker 1: What Gorba Cheff was going to pay the visit, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, you wanted to impress Goreby. He was

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Speaker 1: probably the most popular guy in the world. Right then

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Speaker 1: in nine Um, yeah, they lost face and it was

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Speaker 1: it was a pretty well done move on the part

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Speaker 1: of the students who carried out the hunger strike. Um,

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Speaker 1: but that that editorial that kicked all this off, that

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Speaker 1: really kind of changed things. There was a huge turn.

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Speaker 1: There was a sea change in the entire thing when

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Speaker 1: regular people started taking up this protest, because it started

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Speaker 1: out as a student protest and now all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden it was an everyday Chinese person protest um, and

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Speaker 1: that apparently changed the entire attitude of the government towards

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Speaker 1: this whole thing that was no longer paternal and kind

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Speaker 1: of head patty and um uh patient. It was like,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, I saw in this front line documentary

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Speaker 1: that somebody said it was like, the workers are the

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Speaker 1: ones who who put the Chinese Communist Party in power,

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Speaker 1: and now it suddenly looked like the workers were about

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Speaker 1: to take the power away from them. And this scared

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Speaker 1: the bid Jesus out of out of them because again

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Speaker 1: this is a very um. They had an iron stranglehold

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Speaker 1: over their population, and they were also there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of corruption in the government too, so the the whole

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Speaker 1: idea of being removed from power had a lot more

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Speaker 1: at stake than just you know, losing power. Like there

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Speaker 1: there was they these people that had done quite a

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Speaker 1: bit that they might have to answer for after they

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Speaker 1: lost power. You know, oh yeah, big time. They were.

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Speaker 1: They were officially worried at this point, um, he still

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Speaker 1: had Zo calling for cooler heads to prevail here. Um.

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Speaker 1: But and this is before his removal, just before but

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Speaker 1: Leeping said, you know what, the only way to take

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Speaker 1: care of this is by kind of cracking the whip

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Speaker 1: in a hard, hard way. Um, martial law should be imposed.

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Speaker 1: Students heard about this, and this is when the big,

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Speaker 1: big protest at Tenement Square. I think they estimated like

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Speaker 1: over a million people, one point two million people, um, students.

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Speaker 1: There were police involved, there were some military that we're protesting,

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Speaker 1: and this is when everything really started to gain some momentum. Um.

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Speaker 1: And you know what students thought was the right direction,

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Speaker 1: but it turns out was a bad move. Probably yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean in high you can never yeah sure, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean like like yeah now. But at the time,

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Speaker 1: it was like, okay, we're gonna go to the mattresses

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Speaker 1: rather than backing down. And they said, okay, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: escalate on our end as well. If they're gonna amass

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Speaker 1: troops and invade Beijing, which is what they did, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna meet them and try to drive them out. And

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Speaker 1: at first it actually worked. There was a a first

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Speaker 1: incursion into Beijing of about three hundred thousand Chinese soldiers.

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Speaker 1: The Chinese military showed up in Beijing and tanks, armored

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Speaker 1: personnel carriers, troop transport trucks, the whole shebang. The imagine

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Speaker 1: three hundred thousand soldiers showing up in Atlanta and just

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Speaker 1: basically being like, everybody needs to go home. The thing is,

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Speaker 1: everybod go home. This first probably this first um, this

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Speaker 1: first incursion I guess into Beijing, UM didn't actually make

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Speaker 1: it to the city center because the people in the suburbs,

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Speaker 1: uh came out and swamped these army convoys and prevented

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Speaker 1: them from moving forward and actually kept them there and

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Speaker 1: gridlock of a sea of humanity for about four days.

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Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, I mean it was a it was

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Speaker 1: a huge victory. Kind of right off the bat. They

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Speaker 1: had UM you know, they they went after these personnel

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Speaker 1: carriers and these tanks. They had children, they had older adults,

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Speaker 1: they had They basically kind of paralyzed what they were

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Speaker 1: trying to do and then decided to do a very

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Speaker 1: kind of brilliant thing, which was appeal to the good

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Speaker 1: nature of these soldiers as human beings. UM. I saw

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Speaker 1: one article that that kind of guess that about six

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Speaker 1: of the p l A soldiers were illiterate. Um, they

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Speaker 1: were uneducated. They were from out in the country, and

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Speaker 1: these Beijing city folks would approach them and they would

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Speaker 1: bring them food, and they would bring them things to drink,

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Speaker 1: and they would send their children out to talk to

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Speaker 1: them and say things like, you know, you should be

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Speaker 1: defending us, you shouldn't be attacking us, you should join us,

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Speaker 1: And some of them did. Some of those soldiers stepped

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Speaker 1: down and kind of quit on the spot, knowing full

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Speaker 1: well that that not end well for them, And the

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Speaker 1: majority of them obviously didn't right right, But even you know,

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Speaker 1: even if they didn't step down and and quit, some

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Speaker 1: of them did step down and mingle and talk. And

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Speaker 1: I saw footage of them when they finally left on

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Speaker 1: the fourth day, they turned around and retreated away from Beijing.

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Speaker 1: You know, a good third or half of the troops

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Speaker 1: on these trucks that were driving away were waving to

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Speaker 1: the to the people of Beijing who'd just been who

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Speaker 1: just spent the last four days like feeding them and

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Speaker 1: talking to them and basically trying to change their minds

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Speaker 1: about this. Because I don't know if we made it

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Speaker 1: we made it clear when the people from the Beijing

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Speaker 1: suburbs swamped these trucks. This is a big non violent

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Speaker 1: form of resistance. It wasn't violent, it was it was

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Speaker 1: a charm offensive. It was just straight up non violent resistance.

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Speaker 1: And it worked, like it totally worked. On the one hand,

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Speaker 1: it worked because the Chinese government hadn't given them orders

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Speaker 1: to fire on anybody, and probably gave them orders not

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Speaker 1: to carry out any violence against the people. Um and

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00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: that that's really why it actually ultimately worked. Because if

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Speaker 1: if you're being met with that kind of resistance and

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Speaker 1: you can't meet that resistance with violence, it's not like

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Speaker 1: the soldiers We're gonna explain their position or the government's

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Speaker 1: position to the Beijing residents and change their minds. There's

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Speaker 1: nothing they could do but just sit there and then

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Speaker 1: finally turn around and leave. And so at first, the uh,

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Speaker 1: the residents of Beijing were kind of chugh with themselves,

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Speaker 1: you know, like like that really worked. This non violent

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Speaker 1: resistance turned back three hundred thousand troops from China's equivalent

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Speaker 1: of Arkansas who just showed up in China's equivalent of

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Speaker 1: New York and um and and kept them from invading. Basically, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so the government sees this happen, and they they're on

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Speaker 1: full uh, they're on high alert now. They're fully worried,

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Speaker 1: and they see the riding on the wall that this

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Speaker 1: could be the end of the Communist Party as we

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Speaker 1: know it if we don't squash this thing once and

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Speaker 1: for all. And so they said, all right, here's what

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Speaker 1: we're gonna do. Let's send the army in again, just

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Speaker 1: like we did the first time, except now you're going

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Speaker 1: to get to Tienamen Square and squash this uprising. If

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Speaker 1: they come out and meet you in the suburbs, um

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Speaker 1: take care of things. However, you need to to get

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Speaker 1: to Tienamen Square, like full authorization to use deadly force. Yeah,

429
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: and I saw again on that documentary they were saying

430
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: like they were given guns and ammunition, and the ammunition

431
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: they were given were um, thumb sized bullets. The kind

432
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: of bullets that um from what I could tell, they

433
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: were um what's that kind that like turned into like

434
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: like circular saws inside people. What's it called? It's like

435
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: a really common word. Everybody knows all the point. I

436
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: think anyway, they they were meant for like combat. The

437
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: bullets they're using, these weren't rubber bullets. They weren't even

438
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: regular bullets. They were like combat grade bullets that these

439
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: the troops were given and you have to you have

440
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: to remember to chuck. By this time, there's nobody now

441
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: because Zoo has been removed. Um, there's nobody arguing against

442
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: this impulse, at least not openly, and so this impulse

443
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: is allowed to go and check. Nobody stopped and said, well,

444
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait a minute, this is crazy. We're

445
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: talking about going in and slaughtering our own people. Um,

446
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: we have to find another way. Nobody was saying that,

447
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: and in fact, Lee Lee Paying was at the very

448
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: least keeping his mouth shut, if not supporting this whole

449
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: thing as well. Yeah, so you know, the students get

450
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: word that this is what's coming, basically a second wave.

451
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: They were victorious in that first wave. So they were,

452
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: like you said, they were checked. They were probably like,

453
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: all right, bring it on, Well let's do the let's

454
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: do the same thing again. We're going to charm you again. Yeah,

455
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: pretty much. And they did the same thing. They had

456
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: these they improvised these barricades at the entrance points. They

457
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: blocked off roads with people with busses uh tired like

458
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: stacks of tires and stuff. And on June third, the

459
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: night of June three, the tanks roll in, the personnel

460
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: vehicles roll in. By this time, there are some rocks

461
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: being thrown and some Molotov cocktails and stuff like that,

462
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: and things start to get a little unruly, and the

463
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 1: p l A just charged through and at nine pm

464
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: the first shots rang out, and it was very clear,

465
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: very quickly that they were just gonna mow people down. Yeah,

466
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: but apparently even though it was clear to some people,

467
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: to other people it was so surprising and just so

468
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: utterly unbelievable that it took way too long for it

469
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: to sink in what was going on. I'm sure everybody

470
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: was shocked. Yeah, So some people, i think, just started

471
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: running when they saw people falling and bodies starting to

472
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: pile up, But other people were still, you know, throwing rocks,

473
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: and it hadn't really sunk in yet. And then ultimately,

474
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 1: eventually everybody got it and they started to turn and run.

475
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: And then as they would turn and run, the government

476
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: there the soldiers would fire into their backs, keep firing

477
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: into crowds that are running away. Unarmed crowds maybe have rocks,

478
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: maybe a molotov cocktails, set a bus on fire. But

479
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: they don't have guns. They don't have machine guns. I

480
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: was looking and apparently chuck, China has one of the

481
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: strictest gun policies, um in the world. Like, if you're

482
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: just an average Chinese person, you are not armed. You

483
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: could get a gun if you apply for one and

484
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: the government gives it to you, if you have like

485
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: a real need for it, like maybe there's bears that

486
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: live around your house that keep killing your livestock or something.

487
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: But if you live in Beijing, you don't have a gun.

488
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: And it makes me wonder like would this have erupted

489
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: into civil war if Beijing was armed, you know, um?

490
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: Or would it have been even worse? You know? Would

491
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: they have fought back a lot more if they had

492
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: had guns? Who knows. But the fact of the matters

493
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: these people did not have guns, and they were shot

494
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: in the back running away by government troops from their

495
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: own government, from their own country. And this is just

496
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: the first time this happened. This was in an isolated incident. Yeah,

497
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: so I read this article. UM. I think about three

498
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: years ago there was a sort of first hand account

499
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: from a writer from England named Sir Alan Donald, and

500
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: it was declassified three years ago. He wrote this account

501
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: on June five, so you know, we'll we'll finish up

502
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,719
Speaker 1: on what happened June three and fourth. But it was

503
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: a very fresh account of what happened. He was over there,

504
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: and he got his information from a source who had

505
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: spoken to a very close friend in China State Council

506
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: who apparently previously had always proved very reliable, very even handed,

507
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: um and very factual. And the things that he would, uh,

508
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: I guess leak um out to his friend, and the

509
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: account of what happened is just like mind boggling that

510
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: they were there were snipers shooting people in on their

511
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: balconies that weren't even not down on the street protesting um.

512
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: They said that there were snipers using street cleaners and

513
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: things just sort of a target practice. Uh. They were

514
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: young women who were begging for their life that were

515
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: bayonetted through the chest. There was one account of a

516
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: three year old that was wounded and the mom was

517
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: racing to try and help it and they mowed her down. Uh.

518
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: They were you know, hosing body parts and entrails into

519
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: the drains of the street. It was just they were

520
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: mowing people down at like forty miles per hour, just

521
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: running people over in these personnel trucks. And it just

522
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: can't be overstated what a complete and utter massacre this was. Yeah,

523
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: I mean the end result of this was as on

524
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 1: the high end, maybe ten thousand people civilians, almost almost

525
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: to a person was were killed overnight from June three

526
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: to fourth, and the violence that took place, and then

527
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: on the next day, June four, unarmed, many of them

528
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: shot in the back, just just killed and including Yeah, like,

529
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: like you say, some people weren't even down on the street,

530
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: They were in their apartment. They just had the misfortune

531
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: of having an apartment whose windows looked out onto ten

532
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: m And Square. Uh, and who had caught the attention

533
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: of a sniper on nearby rooftop. Like it was just

534
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: just ghastly one of the worst things that any government's

535
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: ever done to its own people, certainly in modern times. Um,

536
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: it doesn't really get much worse than that. Yeah, So

537
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: one thirty am, the army is finally in the heart

538
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: of Beijing. They have surrounded Tenamen Square. All of these

539
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: protests are not all of them, Sure, some people got

540
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: out of there, but most of these protesters are still there.

541
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: Um there order to leave the they opened fire again.

542
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: I think at this point they sent in something called

543
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: the twenty seven Army, which the best the best I

544
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: could find is that just as was a very um

545
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: loyal division, apparently that would they knew that would just

546
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: obey the orders no matter what. And so now they're

547
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: in Tiennement Square. They're throwing rocks, they're getting strafed by

548
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: machine gun fire. And within a few hours and most

549
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: of Tienamen Square had empty out. Uh, they were down

550
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: to about three to five thousand students. They took a

551
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: vote um the student union basically said do you want

552
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: to go or do you want to stay? And most

553
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: people wanted to stay, but the leadership said, no, we

554
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: got to get out of here otherwise we're all going

555
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: to be killed. Basically, yeah, they just said the ghost

556
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: have it, let's go um. And in retrospect, that was

557
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: the smartest possible thing they could have done. There wasn't

558
00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: any anything that would have been gained necessarily by the slaughter.

559
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: But they were all very surprised that they weren't just

560
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: indiscriminately slaughtered themselves like they you know, a lot of

561
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: people have been killed in Tianamen Square already and they

562
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: were cornered by the military. But then rather than just

563
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: mow them down like had been done to everybody else,

564
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: they were given an ultimatum that they could either leave

565
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: now and and just dropped the whole uprising thing, or

566
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: um they could be jailed, prosecuted and probably killed. So

567
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: they decided to go. And it makes you wonder like

568
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: would it have had an effect if they had been killed,

569
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: because these these must have been the very students from

570
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: the elite Beijing University who were the sons and daughters

571
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: of the elite leaders in China at the time. Um,

572
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: So what repercussions would there have been had they died?

573
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: But ultimately it was the right move, It was the

574
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: smart thing to do, and the best thing to do

575
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: is for the leadership. These students themselves, they were in

576
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: their early twenties, tops to say let's we should leave,

577
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: and they did. Yeah. So, you know, Tienamen Square itself

578
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: gets all the press and the and the historical record

579
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: kind of lies in Tienamen Square, but uh, it was

580
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: it was all over Beijing the um June four, like

581
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 1: it was on June three. On June four, Some say

582
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: that that's where the most loss of life happened and

583
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: some of the bloodiest. H I was about to say battle,

584
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: but it wasn't even a battle. The bloodiest part of

585
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,959
Speaker 1: the massacre happened the next day in the surrounding streets. Yeah,

586
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: for Tienaman Square to have, like you say, all the press,

587
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: very little actually happened there. It was mostly in the

588
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: area around it in the rest of Beijing. Um. But

589
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: the the street that actually runs in front of Tienaman Square, UM,

590
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: shooting on Yeah, shooing on avenue it Um, it got

591
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: the most coverage and has the most record of what

592
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: happened because there happened to be a high rise hotel

593
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: along shune On Avenue that that housed a bunch of

594
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: Western journalists who were surreptitiously recording and photographing this whole

595
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: thing and documenting it. Yeah, so they that was very fortuitous, um,

596
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: because you know, we'll get to tank Man later. But

597
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: on this avenue, the protesters gathered and they started to

598
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: get on the p l A troops demanding answers. The

599
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: army said, all right, you need to disperse again or

600
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: face the consequences. And once again, just like in the

601
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: other instances the army just opened fire and they just

602
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: barreled down the avenue and people were scrambling, they were

603
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: getting out of the way, they were hiding behind trees

604
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: and buildings, and there would be a little period of

605
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,399
Speaker 1: calm and then people would gather up again. And this

606
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: is what makes us also tragic, is the people would

607
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: continually get the nerve to try again over and over. Yeah,

608
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: and a lot of those people the next day on

609
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: on shooing on Avenue UM, were the parents of these

610
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: these protests or who they wanted to get into Tianneman

611
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: Square to find out what had happened to their kids.

612
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: They didn't They hadn't heard from him yet. They thought

613
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 1: maybe they were dead in there. So I think that

614
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: might have been what drove them to to come back

615
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: over and over again, even after being fired upon UM

616
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: And I saw footage of this. There's like after that

617
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,479
Speaker 1: first wave, maybe even after the second wave, this whole

618
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: thing went on a dozen or so times where the

619
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: people would come back up and confront the military, the

620
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: military to open fire them, they'd run away, and then

621
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: the people would like gather their courage up again and

622
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: go do it again. At least after the first or

623
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 1: second wave. Uh, there's an ambulance that shone like rushing

624
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: to the scene, and they fire on that. And they

625
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: seemed to have either killed or possibly injured the driver

626
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: because it like years off course and runs into like

627
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: a booth or some of some sort. So they were

628
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 1: firing on ambulances that were coming to help the injured

629
00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: who they had fired on just a few minutes earlier. Yeah,

630
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: I saw one report that they uh one I'm not

631
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 1: sure how it's split up, but one troop fired on

632
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: their own officer and murdered him because I think he

633
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: had shown a little bit of resistance or maybe the

634
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 1: way I read it, it was a kind of even

635
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: just like hey, what are we doing here, like a

636
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: little bit of self doubt about their mission, and so

637
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: they murdered him. Man, I mean, imagine this like whether

638
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: you're in America or the UK or Australia, Like, imagine

639
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: your own army doing this to you, like showing up

640
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: in your city and just opening fire like what I

641
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: just nightmare situation. That would be. Yeah. Should we take

642
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: another break? Yes, all right, we'll take another break, and

643
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: we'll talk about tank Man and sort of the legacy

644
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 1: of the massacre at Tenement Square right after this stop

645
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: stop you. So, like I said, Chuck, there was about

646
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: on the high end, ten thousand residents of Beijing killed

647
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: June three and fourth. Um oh really, Um yeah, I

648
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: mean the account from the one guy said that it

649
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: was at least ten thousand, and that was from his

650
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: supposed source from inside the Chinese government. And that's that's

651
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: just killed. That's not killed or injured. That's not just

652
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: total casualties. That's that's killed. Um. The uh, the government

653
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 1: of China, whenever they did acknowledge that this even happened,

654
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: which we'll get to in a little bit, they said,

655
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 1: I think it was like to tote like two something,

656
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: is what they said. And they included in that a

657
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: lot of soldiers and officers. And it is true that

658
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: there were reports of you know, some of these barricades

659
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 1: that people had put up around Beijing where they there

660
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: were enough people that they overran you know, troop like

661
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: troop transports and killed soldiers on board. So there were

662
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: some soldiers that died, but far in away, the most

663
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: casualties were on the civilian side, unarmed civilian side. Keep

664
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: in mind, yeah, I think I saw the Chinese Red

665
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: Cross initially said twenty seven hundred, but that was quickly squashed. Uh,

666
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: and that even seemed super super low, right, So um,

667
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: this is uh. That was June four that the worst

668
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: of the massacre happened. It was in broad daylight. And

669
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: then June five, Um, things had calmed down some in

670
00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 1: the sense that there was not necessarily indiscriminate mowing down

671
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 1: of people in the streets anymore. People had just basically

672
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,280
Speaker 1: resigned to give up and stay inside. The TENEMN protests

673
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: have been completely squashed. Um, And it was I guess

674
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: calm as calumn as could be, considering that there were

675
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: still plenty of like tanks and martial law in the

676
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: area and on shooting on avenue, like a column of

677
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: I think eight tanks or a few a few tanks,

678
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how many there were, um gathered into

679
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: a line and sort of going down the avenue, and

680
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: then just out of nowhere, this one guy tank man

681
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,959
Speaker 1: steps out of nowhere and just stands in front of

682
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: the lead tank, and eventually the tank just comes to

683
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 1: a stop. And I guess there were This is all

684
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: right in plain view of the Western journalists, of a

685
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: lot of people who were watching this waiting for the

686
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: tank to just run this guy down or to just

687
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: shoot him with the machine gun, just basically treat him

688
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: just like like you know, ten thousand or more other

689
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: people have been treated in the last day, and to

690
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: everyone's great surprise, it didn't happen. Instead, the tank just

691
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: tried to move. Yeah, so he stops the tanks. Uh.

692
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: He's motioning, you know, like kind of get out of here.

693
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: He's kind of sweeping his arm around and then, you know,

694
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 1: this footage is just remarkable to look at even today.

695
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: The tank tries to go around him, and like you said,

696
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: then the guy gets in its path. The tank stops again,

697
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: the tank goes to the left. They're doing this just

698
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: surreal dance of the tank moving and the guy moving

699
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 1: in front of it. And then finally the tank stopped again,

700
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: cut its motor, and the guy climbs up on top

701
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: of the tank and starts yelling at the soldiers. One

702
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: of the dudes in the tank, uh, pokes his little

703
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: head out and they start talking, and I say, little head.

704
00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 1: I think he had a normal size head, but just

705
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: from the the vantage point of the footage was a

706
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: little head. Uh, or who knows, maybe he was a

707
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: tiny headed person. It was smaller than normal. You can

708
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 1: never say. So they start yelling at each other and

709
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 1: having an exchange, and the guy gets back down on

710
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: the ground. Tank Man does. The tank starts this engine

711
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: and he gets right back in front of front of

712
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 1: it again. And that is when that very famous photo

713
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: from Charles Cole is snapped of him just standing again

714
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: with those shopping bags by his side, just as defying

715
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: as the human being has ever been. And I mean

716
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: this is after ten thousand of his fellow Beijing Beijing

717
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: ors have been killed in the street. And this guy

718
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: said this is enough. Like that's the thing to me.

719
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: The guy said, this is enough. I'm sick of this.

720
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: S you guys need to go. That very clearly what

721
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: the guy was saying. But the beautiful thing about tank

722
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 1: Man is you can't hear what he said. You can't

723
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 1: see you can't see his face, uh nearly enough to

724
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: to even tell who he was. There's no way anybody

725
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: saw who this guy actually was, um at least not

726
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: from like a camera or anything. So you also couldn't

727
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: read his lips or anything. So it's left up to

728
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: you and your imagination what this guy was saying and

729
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: what he was doing, and then actually comes through in

730
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: the fact that China, right after this incident, broadcast it

731
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 1: on TV. But they broadcast it as clear evidence of

732
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: just how much restraint the Chinese military had shown in Beijing,

733
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: and how all of the casualties that had actually come

734
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: out of it were the fault and the on account

735
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: of the these um rebellious anti communist uprisers, and that

736
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: the military had really done a good job with us.

737
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: But it really kind of underlines like you can put

738
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: into tank man what you want, but far and away

739
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: the vast majority of the world. Because that Charles Cole

740
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: photo quickly got out, we'll explain how in a second,

741
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: the vast majority of the world was inspired by this

742
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: guy showing courage. That that's how they took it, that

743
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: this guy was saying, and not if you can do

744
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: what you want to me, but I represent the real

745
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,240
Speaker 1: true feeling of the people of Beijing, are the people

746
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: of China, of all freedom loving people in the world,

747
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: I represent how they feel about you in that tank

748
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: and all the people who sent you here right now. Yeah,

749
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: it was it was remarkable. Um So Charles Cole takes

750
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: this picture, he is seen by some security officials that

751
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: are on a rooftop across the street. And he knows this,

752
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 1: and he's like, they're gonna come for my camera. Um,

753
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: for sure, So he very smartly pops this roll of

754
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: film out and hides it in the water tank of

755
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: his toilet in his bathroom. I was, Oh, I don't know,

756
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: I think can you imagine? I think the keyster would

757
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: be sought out sooner than the toilet tank, right. The

758
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: first thing they did was probably bend him over and

759
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: see what he had. So they did come, and they

760
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: did compensate his camera, and they confiscated a roll of film,

761
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: but it was from the day before, and he came

762
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: back the next day and that that roll of film

763
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: was still in the toilet tank. Yeah, I got it.

764
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: Otherwise the world may have never seen this image. Yeah no,

765
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's necessarily true, because there's that

766
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: video footage of it that shows the whole thing. And

767
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: did we say also that he um, have we gotten

768
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 1: to the part where he's hustled off? Who cole tank man?

769
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: Oh no, okay, well I just spoiled it. So I

770
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: mean there is the video of it. But yeah, that

771
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: that that photo that the world got to see because

772
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 1: of Charles Cole's quick thinking, that that became like a

773
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: symbol of you know, the tenam and square uprising, like

774
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 1: tank Man just standing defiantly. I wonder if do you

775
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: know the release date of the video footage? No, I don't.

776
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: I know that stuff leaked out pretty quick. I imagine

777
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: that everybody was kind of like, ho, um, I'm just

778
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: leaving Beijing for no good reason. I'm a Western journalist

779
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: just traveling to Shanghai to fly back to London for

780
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: no good reason. You don't need to search me for anything,

781
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: and just got out of there as fast as they could.

782
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: I just wonder if they released the footage after the

783
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: photo had become released. I'm not sure. I know that

784
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: there were a lot of journalists watching that at the time,

785
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: including just you know, UM text journalists when writers, I

786
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: guess you'd call them um that that that were witnessing

787
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: this and writing about it and memorizing and documenting it. Um.

788
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,919
Speaker 1: And the fact that they were left alive let this

789
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,399
Speaker 1: idea get out, because we'll see the Chinese government like

790
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: washed a memory of this. This is a lot. It

791
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 1: bears a lot of resemblance to um to the Tulsa

792
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: Race massacre. Yeah, you know, it just follows a lot

793
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: of the same key points, but um to some up

794
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: tank Man or to wrap up his story. Um, after

795
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: this this, like you said, this weird dance goes on

796
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: for a little while and he's just standing there and

797
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: there's there in a standoff. It's between him and the tank.

798
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: A guy runs it, comes up on his bike and

799
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: you could tell he's just kind of like you, Okay,

800
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: you need to get out of here. This is not

801
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 1: going to go well for you. And that kind of

802
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: cues up a couple of other guys who run into

803
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: the frame of this video footage and just grabbed tank

804
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: Man and hustle him away. And there's some debate over

805
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 1: who those people were and what became of tank Man.

806
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: Some witnesses say, well, they were clearly you know, members

807
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: of the Communist Party, you know, secret police, and he

808
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 1: was taken away and executed. But if you watch the footage,

809
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 1: to me, these are these are people who are getting

810
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: him out of there to help him. That's how it

811
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: would Yeah. Yeah, So they think the fact that the

812
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: Chinese government did not parade this guy around, hold a

813
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: public trial and probably a public execution to make an

814
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: example out of him, and the fact that no one

815
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:21,959
Speaker 1: has any idea what his name was and no one's

816
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: ever said it was this guy definitively makes people think

817
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: that he is still alive and hadn't told anybody that

818
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: he he made it out of there alive. Basically, Yeah,

819
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: I really wonder. I mean, there have been various accounts

820
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 1: over the years of who they think it was. Some

821
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: people have even named individuals. Uh. Some people have said

822
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: that no, he was executed. Some people said no, he wasn't. Uh.

823
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 1: Some people said he was incarcerated, never to be heard

824
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: from again, and we just there's really no way of knowing. Uh.

825
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: It is interesting to read though, all the accounts of

826
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: what people think might have happened. Yeah, I like to

827
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: know with that he was absorbed by a crowd and

828
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: disappeared like live to live, not disappeared like disappeared like

829
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: from the government's radar. Yeah, it's like at the end

830
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: of Victory, the Great World War two soccer movie. Oh

831
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: I never saw that one. Well, should I spoil it? Sure?

832
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 1: I think I kind of did they win? All right?

833
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: If you want to see this movie, don't listen to

834
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: this people. But the whole deal is as they stage

835
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: the Allies prisoners of war stage the soccer match against Germany.

836
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: But the real plan is that they are to escape

837
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: during a tunnel in the locker room. Uh, this rag

838
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: tag team of soccer players that the prisoners as symbol

839
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: featuring Sylvester Stallone as the loan American in goal, and uh,

840
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: they think that they can win the soccer game. At

841
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: halftime that they don't escape, they decide to not go

842
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: and to play that soccer match and they win, and

843
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: it's amazing, and the stadium is field is stormed and

844
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: they are absorbed by the crowd and you see images

845
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,720
Speaker 1: of them getting hustled off and having like street clothes

846
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: put on them over their soccer uniforms, and that's the

847
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: end of the movie. It's great. So they were very

848
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 1: fortunate that the crowd treated them that way, but they

849
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: didn't know that that was going to happen. No, they

850
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: then that was one of the dumbest decisions ever made

851
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: by a group of human beings in the world to

852
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: try and win a soccer game instead of this game,

853
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: because it doesn't matter. The soccer game doesn't matter, that matters.

854
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: That was so dumb it's such a good movie based

855
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: on a real life true story. You know, I have

856
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: no idea. I don't think so it has to be

857
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 1: I've hoped so Okay, So anyway, Um, we don't know

858
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: what became a tank man, but the the his his image,

859
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: they think, or they say, actually inspired a lot of

860
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: those um protests in Eastern Europe that had made the

861
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 1: Communist Party so nervous for a wild chuck that um

862
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,959
Speaker 1: they actually inspired those protesters to go all the way

863
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: and actually led to the downfall of the USSR. What

864
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 1: he did not lead to the downfall of was the

865
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:34,439
Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party because they won. They they they went

866
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: as far as they needed to go to make sure

867
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 1: that they held on to power, like they went far

868
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: beyond like any reasonable point and engaged in not civil war,

869
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: a massacre of their own people, just to hold on

870
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,919
Speaker 1: to power and keep things the way that they were.

871
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: But one thing that really changed that directly came out

872
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 1: of this June popular uprising was a shift toward economic

873
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 1: reform that they had said, Okay, you people, you want

874
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: some economic reform. You want a bigger shot at life,

875
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 1: you want more, you want to make more money, you

876
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: want you know, luxury brands build malls and open up

877
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 1: stores here, We'll give you that. And they did. They

878
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: opened up China to foreign investment. And I mean we

879
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: all know how that story went. Um, this rise of

880
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: China that we're seeing now and have been seeing for

881
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: the last couple of decades directly came from the June

882
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: uprisings and the decision for the government to say, okay,

883
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: we'll open up some economic reform. Yeah. And in the end,

884
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: like we said, you know, up to and perhaps more

885
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: than ten thousand people murdered, um at least six d

886
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: people imprisoned. I gotta think it was much more than that.

887
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: But that's from a human rights group called the Dii

888
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: Hua Foundation and uh, you know, imprisoned for uh you know,

889
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 1: crimes against the government, um, re education camps, life sentences. Supposedly,

890
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen, a man was supposedly the very

891
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: last prisoner from the Teneman massacre to be released twenty

892
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: seven years later. But who knows the truth? And a

893
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,800
Speaker 1: lot I mean a lot of public executions, like making

894
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: examples out of people, scaring the the Jesus out of

895
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: the population, saying like this is what happens. Look, what

896
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: happens if you're a um, if you're anti government. But

897
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 1: again they were they were doing in a was saying like,

898
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: there's just a few people who were really against the government.

899
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,439
Speaker 1: We know you would never do this, and it really

900
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: had this huge chilling effect on that. And so they said,

901
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: we'll give you economic reform. Do not ever ask for

902
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: political reform again, because this is what happens when you do.

903
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 1: We're in charge, we're keeping things the way they are,

904
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 1: but we'll make it so you can have more money

905
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: or whatever. And now China is basically like um, much wealthier.

906
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: There's a huge middle class than there was before. But

907
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: there's also a tremendous amount of inequality that wasn't there before.

908
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,320
Speaker 1: But you can also say, on the other hand, everybody

909
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 1: was equally poor. Um, now there's a lot less people

910
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: who aren't poor, and even a lot of the poorer

911
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: people are way better off than they were, but they

912
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: still live under one of the most repressive regimes in

913
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 1: the world. UM. And that was the that was the tradeoff,

914
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: that was the bargain that was made. Yeah, and you

915
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: know what, there's one thing that I think I really

916
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: learned from this, and it was that you have to

917
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:47,240
Speaker 1: nip corruption in the bud before it takes true route,

918
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: Because if you let your government and your leaders get

919
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: away with corruption, they're gonna try to get away with

920
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: a little more, and a little more and a little more,

921
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,240
Speaker 1: and then before you know it, corruption is so entrenched

922
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 1: in your government, it and in your society that the

923
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: people who are in charge have so much to answer for.

924
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 1: I have so much that they've done that they would

925
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:13,879
Speaker 1: not want people to know about that. They can't ever

926
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: afford to let go of power, and so they will

927
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: do anything to hold on power, including murder their own

928
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 1: people who try to take them out of power. And

929
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 1: I mean, this happened in China, but if it if

930
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: it reaches that point, you could make a pretty good

931
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: case that this could happen anywhere. That's what I took

932
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: from it. You cannot as a society, You cannot as

933
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: a um, a political group of citizens, a citizenry put

934
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: up with corruption, no matter how big your house small,

935
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:47,760
Speaker 1: in your leaders, in your government, you can't do it. Yeah,

936
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 1: it's a man, what a time. But like you said,

937
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 1: it's it's a cautionary tale. Forever agreed. Uh, Oh, one

938
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 1: more thing, Chuck. They showed some They showed a picture

939
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 1: of tank Man to some kids from Beijing University when

940
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: that documentary was made in two thousand six, and either

941
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: either they pretended they didn't know who it was or

942
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 1: they legit did not know what they were looking at.

943
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: Yeah it looked real to me, man. Yeah, But you

944
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: could also make the case like that this is such

945
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 1: a taboo subject that like you would pretend on camera

946
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 1: to some Western journalists with government mind or sitting right

947
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 1: next to them, or had no idea what it was.

948
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, um, well that's tenemn square now, you know. Um.

949
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 1: And if you want to know more about it, there's

950
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: a lot to read about it, um all over the internet, thankfully,

951
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: as long as you live outside of China. It's about

952
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 1: one internet, right Uh. And since Chuck said one Internet,

953
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: it's time for a listener mate. Uh, this is which

954
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: one should I read here? So you know what? Let

955
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: me read this? This was a this one just came in.

956
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 1: This was a uh listener male prediction and that puts

957
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: Jared from sub from subway to shame. Did you read

958
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: this one? No? I don't know which one that is. Uh,

959
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 1: well just sit back then and hold onto your seats. Hey, guys,

960
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 1: My family and I live in Oregon have been in

961
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 1: lockdown for the past ten weeks. My husband is a

962
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 1: firefighter paramedics, so we are really staying home so we

963
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: can minimize the risk of spreading the virus because he

964
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: has so much exposure due to his job. I am

965
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 1: a substitute teacher and I am not work right now,

966
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 1: but I'm homeschooling our kids age two, six, and eight.

967
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: We're very lucky. My husband's job is essential, though, because

968
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 1: so we're not in the position that so many Americans

969
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: are in with losing both of our jobs. And when

970
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: I'm not homeschooling, I get to listen to as much

971
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 1: stuff you should know as possible. So onto the reason

972
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 1: I'm writing this. I was listening to the Globe of

973
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: Death episode from December two thousand seventeen, and I went

974
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: back and listen to this. In fact, maybe we should

975
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: play this one again. Uh, listener mail, Well, let me

976
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: just read this. We'll see if we need to. We'll

977
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: play the entire episode in this listener mail. No, just

978
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: the listener mail, gotcha? Okay, the listener mail. And this

979
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: episode was really eerie. It's a woman who predicts the

980
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 1: next global outbreak will be a flu pandemic, and it

981
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 1: calls on the government for cutting c DC funding to

982
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: prepare for an event like this. It's very strange to

983
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:30,439
Speaker 1: be listening to this listener mail on this situation after

984
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: being in quarantine. I know you guys love it when

985
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: you're show predicts events, so I thought I would throw

986
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: this out there. Thanks that you do all that you

987
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 1: do to keep me sane, and that I'm able to

988
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 1: hear other grown ups talking about interesting talk topics. My

989
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 1: kids are always asking what I'm laughing at and then

990
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 1: asked to hear what Josh and Chuck are saying. Thank you, guys.

991
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: That is from Tiffany Hallock and uh, shall we play

992
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: a portion of that? Yeah? We should. All right, Well,

993
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: here's the listener mail from two thousand seventeen, and see

994
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 1: if this is uh sounds a little eerie to you.

995
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this flu epidemic. Hey, guys, I'm a

996
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: Master's of Public Health candidate in Atlanta at Emory, and

997
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: we spend a good amount of time discussing the flu.

998
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 1: I remember you mentioning the Spanish flu and wondered if

999
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: such an epidemic could happen again. Bad news is, it

1000
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: can and it probably will. According to public health scholars,

1001
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: that is the culprit is our meat industry, which keeps

1002
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: an overbundance of foul and pigs and tight unsanitary quarters.

1003
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 1: Because of the way this industry is growing, and some

1004
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 1: might argue due to its lack of regulation. Uh, these

1005
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: unsafe conditions lend to the rapid mutation of the virus. This,

1006
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 1: coupled with the ever decreasing c DC budget, makes it

1007
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 1: harder and harder for vaccine scientists to create accurate vaccines.

1008
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: On top of all that, the flues scene is a

1009
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 1: low threat by most of our society, rendering us ill

1010
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 1: equipped and underprepared. Most people are scared of ebola or

1011
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 1: other difficult catch viruses. However, influenza is a rapidly mutating

1012
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: and highly aggressive virus that is easily transmittable and is

1013
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 1: right here on our doorstep. Scientists predict the flue might

1014
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 1: be the next most deadly epidemic if we're not careful.

1015
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 1: My recommendation to our congress people stop cutting the CDC budget.

1016
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 1: Prevention is key. I know will probably sounds like a

1017
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 1: quack not to me for real, but just wanted to

1018
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 1: spread a little knowledge and say hey to my favorite podcasters,

1019
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 1: thanks for putting on such amazing show. And that is

1020
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 1: from Jasmine. Wow, that was pretty eerie. Turned out to

1021
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: be Dr Debra Burkes herself. Uh well, thanks dude, that

1022
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 1: was a that was a good listener mail. And that

1023
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 1: was from Tiffany, you said, yeah, that was from Tiffany.

1024
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: Thanks for that one, Tiffany. Thanks good catch, um, and

1025
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 1: thanks for letting us know that you guys are doing okay, Uh,

1026
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 1: hanging there with the home school in and hanging there

1027
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: everybody who whose job was not essential, who's on furlough

1028
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: or um beating up the unemployement an office website. Uh,

1029
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 1: hang in there, everybody, because things are going to get better.

1030
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 1: Uh and we will be here the whole time too. Okay,

1031
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 1: that's right. Okay. If you want to get in touch

1032
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 1: with this in the meantime to say hi or whatever,

1033
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 1: well you can do a via email. How about that.

1034
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 1: Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send

1035
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: it off to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com.

1036
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radios

1037
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

1038
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you

1039
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.