1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's me Josh. For this week's select, I've 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: chosen our twenty eighteen episode about the unibomber Misunderstood. You 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: could say that the environmental visionary who predicted some of 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: the more negative aspects of our modern world. Yes, indeed, 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: unrelin and killer who didn't care who he hurt. Absolutely, 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: and that kind of undercuts everything else, doesn't it. Still, 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating episode, and I hope. 8 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 2: You enjoy it. 9 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark with Charles W Chuck Bryant with Jerry Rowland. 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: Three of us put together, put us in some ray 13 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: band aviators, put a gray hoodie sweatshirt on us. 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 2: You got stuff you should know. 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 4: I know, I like your costume today. 16 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: I thought I would dress up to really kind of 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: drive home the idea that I have. I know what 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about. 19 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what's funny is that today, all these 20 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 3: years later, when you see someone in aviators in a 21 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 3: hoodie with the hood up, you say, cheez. 22 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 4: You know what's up? You in a bomber? 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: It's it's part of the social fabric these days. Like 24 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: I ran across some I guess an article from the 25 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: late nineties or whatever that was talking about that famous 26 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: sketch and how it made its way onto like coffee 27 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: mugs and keychains and T shirts and like it became 28 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: like a pop culture icon. 29 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm sure it was on some T shirt 30 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 3: design at what's that terrible store? 31 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: Spencer's. Well, no, no, hot topic. 32 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 4: That one's great. No Urban Outfitters. 33 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: Wait, so you're a Spencer's fan. Huh sure, Okay, Spencer's 34 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: over Urban Outfitters. 35 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: I guess that is. That's the great divide. 36 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: You know, well, Michigan, Ohio State Spencer's Urban Outfitters. 37 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 3: Urban Outfitters is just trendy like stuff that they think 38 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 3: is clever, but it's not Spencer. You could go in 39 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 3: and get a poster of a bikini lady on a Ferrari, 40 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 3: some incense and a giant rubber peanuts, right, Like. 41 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 4: That's a great store, I guess it is. You know, 42 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 4: everything you need under one roof. 43 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: I can't remember what I was in there for the 44 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: other day, but they have like the most extensive selection 45 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: of tasteless shot glasses I've ever seen. 46 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 4: In my life at Spencer. 47 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, which, it's like there's people collecting this. 48 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 4: You can tell I want to know who Spencer is. 49 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: Spencer doesn't want you to know who he is. 50 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 4: Okay, that's why I called his store Spencer. 51 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, his real name is Jackson McClain. 52 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 4: Oh wow, nice work, Jackson threw me. You sniffed me 53 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 4: off the case. 54 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: Nice. That was a good saved, Chuck. 55 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 4: Thanks. 56 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: Speaking of good saves, I'm gonna bail us out of 57 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: this intro. Let's do it take us back way back 58 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 2: to nineteen seventy nine. Eight. 59 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 4: I'm a little seven year old eight. 60 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: Sorry, Chuck, We're going to go back one more year 61 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight. 62 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was seven. 63 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 2: Oh so you knew I got it wrong. Okay. 64 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: Well, in nineteen seventy eight in the Chicago Land area, 65 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: there's a university called Northwestern University. 66 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 2: Go Wildcats. 67 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 4: I didn't look this one up. 68 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: I think it is the Wildcats. That's what we're going with. 69 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: And there was a security officer named Terry Maker who 70 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: opened a suspicious looking package. That's I couldn't find why 71 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: Terry Maker opened it. So I should say everybody, I'm 72 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: making the assumption here that it was deemed suspicious and 73 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: they were like, gook, get the security guard. But Terry 74 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: Maker opened this package and it exploded. Yeah, he got 75 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: some minor cuts and burns. I don't see too many 76 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: people counting him as a victim of the unibomber, although 77 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: I think Terry Maker would probably take issue with it. Sure, 78 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: but he was, by all accounts, the first person to 79 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: come into contact with the unibomber or one of the 80 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: Unibomber's bombs. 81 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was number one in nineteen seventy eight. That 82 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 3: would go on to be fifteen more bombs over the 83 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 3: seventeen year killing spree. Well, in a way, he killed 84 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 3: three people in the end, wounded many more. And we 85 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 3: won't go through all of the targets, but they ranged 86 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 3: from American Airlines Flight four forty four to the president 87 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 3: of United Airlines, Percy Wood, to a Vanderbilt University secretary, 88 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 3: to a timber industry lobbyist to an advertising executive. Part 89 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 3: of the reason why it was so maddening for so 90 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 3: many years was because there was no rhyme or reason 91 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,799 Speaker 3: seemingly to the victims of the Unibomber's wrath. 92 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: No, the one thing that they all shared in common, 93 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: and the Unibomber also wrote letters to newspapers during this 94 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: whole time. The thing that they had in common was 95 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: that they had something to do with technology, or the 96 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: advancement of technology, or the destruction of nature, one of 97 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: those two. And so these people like that was it. 98 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: That was all you had to be doing to be 99 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: a target of the unibomber. He was extremely indiscriminate in 100 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: picking who lived or died by his hand. And you 101 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: have to understand all of these bombs, None of these 102 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: bombs were sent to scare people. Every single one of 103 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: these bombs, whether they killed somebody or not, were intended 104 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: to kill somebody. Who they killed the Unibomber didn't much care. 105 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: And you can tell by the kind of insution attitude 106 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: he had toward who was targeted, like he would get 107 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: names wrong. 108 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. 109 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: His last victim a guy named Gilbert Brent Murray. He 110 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,559 Speaker 1: was a timber industry lobbyist. He opened the package because 111 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: he was the president of the timber industry lobby even 112 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: though the package was addressed to his predecessor. The reason 113 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: it was addressed to his predecessor was because the Unibomber 114 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: had picked the name out of a directory, and it 115 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: was an out of date directory. So this guy died 116 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: as a result of the bomb. 117 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 4: You know, that's a very thing to do. 118 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: It really was. 119 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: And I think the unibomber if you talk to the 120 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: unibomber today, which you could apparently he's very easy to 121 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: get in touch with as and become a pempal of 122 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: he would tell you totally fine, like I don't care 123 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: who died, Like the head of this timber lobby died. 124 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: That was ultimately what I was going for. So he 125 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: was killing people who were associated with an idea, a cause, 126 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: and the cause that he was opposed to was the 127 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: destruction of nature and the advancement of technology. 128 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: Right, So we're talking obviously about Ted Kaczinski. It was 129 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 3: the man's real name and early on innineteen seventy nine, 130 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 3: right after these attacks started happening, the Postal Service, the ATF, 131 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 3: and the FBI got together formed a task course and 132 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 3: that's where they came up with the name unibomb unabom 133 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 3: stood for University Airline bombings, Yeah, because those were the 134 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 3: first bombs that were sent. 135 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: And I guess the name of the case was by 136 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: the FBI, but the name Unibomber was made up by 137 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: the media covering it, right. 138 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's usually the case. Yeah. 139 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 3: In the end, it would become the longest running at 140 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 3: the time. I don't know if it's been outdone yet, 141 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 3: but longest running and most expensive FBI investigation in history. 142 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 3: Eventually had one hundred and fifty full time employees on 143 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 3: the case, which is amazing. And he was tough to 144 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 3: tough to get and you know, he had no forensic 145 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 3: evidence left behind. 146 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 4: He was very careful. 147 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 3: He used bombs that were made out of materials that 148 00:07:58,240 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 3: were easy to find, you couldn't track them. 149 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: He made all of them by hand, painstaking lee. 150 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, made them all by hand. 151 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 3: Like we said, the victims were chosen seemingly at random, 152 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 3: and had it not been for his manifesto, they may 153 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 3: still be on the lookout for this guy. 154 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 155 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: And even still, the way that they were able to 156 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: connect these things was because during this seventeen year campaign 157 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: he would write letters to the editors of newspapers around 158 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: the country claiming responsibility for these crimes. And then I 159 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: think half of the bombs had the inscription FC on 160 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: parts that were recovered, and FC stood for Freedom Club 161 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: because the unibomber, didn't call himself the unibomber. Again, that 162 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: was the media. All of these things, including the manifesto, 163 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: was signed the Freedom Club. 164 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 4: A club of one right. 165 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: But he always wrote about we whenever he was referring 166 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: to himself. Yes, So the whole thing came to a 167 00:08:55,320 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: head in nineteen ninety six when take Hisski was arrested 168 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: in his cabin in Lincoln, Montana. He was known to 169 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: his neighbors as the Hermit on the Hill, and he'd 170 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: lived there for years and years and years, I think 171 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: since the early seventies, I believe. 172 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it was a little primitive cabin off grid. 173 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 3: Inside they found about forty thousand pages worth of journals 174 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 3: describing all his crimes. They found bomb parts, they found 175 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 3: a bomb ready to be mailed, and they knew they 176 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 3: had their guy thanks to his brother David turning him 177 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 3: in essentially after reading this manifesto. He was eventually reigned 178 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 3: in Sacramento, which is where the final murder took place, 179 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 3: and he was sent to jail. Initially, he said, now 180 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: I don't want to I don't want to be I 181 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 3: don't want to plead insanity. That's a big, big, point, yeah, 182 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 3: because I don't think he would have admitted something like that. 183 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 3: But he tried to kill himself in earlynineteen ninety eight 184 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 3: and his jail cell that triggered a psychiatric evaluation and 185 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 3: he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, which triggered a plea 186 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 3: bargain that basically said, you can avoid the death penalty 187 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 3: now if you take this plea bargain. He did, and 188 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 3: in January of nineteen nine eight, he pleaded guilty, accepted 189 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: the eight life sentences with no parole, and is now 190 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 3: living with quite a few other famous bombers at the. 191 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 4: Florence, Colorado Alcatraz. 192 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 3: Of the Rockies the eight X there, right, which that 193 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 3: place in and of itself is crazy. 194 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 4: I looked into it. 195 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like it's come up in plenty of 196 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: other episodes before, because it certainly sounds familiar. Yeah, So 197 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: I was looking into There's this fascinating article called Harvard 198 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: in the Making of the Unibomber by a guy named 199 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: Alston Chase, who I think wrote a book on it. 200 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: But in this article it was so good you read 201 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: it too. Oh yeah, So he really kind of lays 202 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: out a pretty great case based on evidence that he 203 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: compiled from interviews and things like that, that it's definitely 204 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: not a slam dunk diagnosis that the unibomber has schizophrenia. 205 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: And he also, I don't know if he says it outright, 206 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: but he at the very least intimates that it was 207 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: Ted Kaczinski's brother David and his legal team that created 208 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: the public persona of the Unibombers as a person with 209 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: schizophrenia to keep him from getting the death penalty. This 210 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: is much, much, much to the chagrin of the unibomber 211 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: Ted Kaczinski, who eventually did cop to this plea bargain 212 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: because it became clear to him that if he went 213 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: to trial, his defense team was going to put in 214 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: an insanity defense, whether he liked it or not, and 215 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: he was denied the ability to represent himself. 216 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 2: So he was presented with a choice. 217 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: Either go to trial it plead insanity, maybe get a 218 00:11:53,920 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: lesser defense, but in the meantime his manifesto would be 219 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: painted as the ramblings of a madman because he would 220 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: be deemed insane or plead guilty and not insane, defend insanity, 221 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: and then, in his hopes also by extension, defend his 222 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: manifesto and the ideas in it. 223 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. So he is still in prison in Colorado. 224 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 3: Apparently, like you said, he's got a lot of pin 225 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 3: pals because he lived in a tiny, little primitive cabin 226 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 3: for so many years. By all accounts, he has adapted 227 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 3: pretty well to prison life. Being in a small room 228 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 3: is no big deal to him. 229 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: Apparently not. 230 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 3: And you can actually go to the and I'm going 231 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,319 Speaker 3: to totally check this out. I don't know if I 232 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 3: can do it on this upcoming tour, but you can 233 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 3: go see that original cabin at the Newseum in Washington, 234 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 3: d C. And I've looked up pictures and it's kind 235 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 3: of all right there, which is pretty interesting. 236 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, the whole thing is just right there in the Newseum. 237 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 4: Yeah. 238 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 3: So he was a brilliant guy. Like you said, he 239 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 3: went to Harvard. He's a nash MERIT finalist, he was 240 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 3: a math prodigy, started Harvard at sixteen, had an IQ 241 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 3: or has an IQ of one sixty seven. And it 242 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 3: was just a is just a brilliant, brilliant guy. 243 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: And I think we should take a break getting a tingle. 244 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 4: And we'll come back and we'll talk. Well, I guess 245 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 4: we should talk about the manifesto. 246 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: Let's all right, right for this. 247 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: All right, Chuck, and we're back and were kind of 248 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: left it off on Well, we promised we're about to 249 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: talk manifesto, So let's talk manifesto. 250 00:13:58,920 --> 00:13:59,479 Speaker 4: Yeah. 251 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: And after reading the cliffs notes of this thing in 252 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 3: a few different places, one thing is clear is it's 253 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 3: not the ramblings of a madman a b he has 254 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 3: and I hate saying this, but he has a lot 255 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 3: of very salient points about where society is headed due 256 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 3: to technology. 257 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: Or or where it was headed back in the nineties 258 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: where it fully is now. 259 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, very much ahead of his time, thinking wise. The 260 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 3: way he went about correcting this was not was abhorrent, obviously, 261 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 3: but when you read parts of this thing the industrial 262 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 3: revolution and its consequences, like here, just let me pull 263 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: this one for instance. Okay, here's one pull quote. Once 264 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 3: a technical innovation has been introduced, people usually become dependent 265 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 3: on it so that they can never again do without 266 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 3: it unless it is replaced by some still more advanced innovation. 267 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 3: Not only do people become dependent as individuals on a 268 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 3: new item of technology, but even more, the system as 269 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 3: a whole becomes dependent on it. Does it sound like 270 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 3: anything that everyone carries in their pocket every day exactly. 271 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: And he also points out that like the way that 272 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: this happens, this dependence on technology, it comes about because 273 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: new technologies seem good and helpful and useful, and then 274 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: we eventually adapt ourselves to fit them better. We change 275 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: our behavior, we change the way we see things, we 276 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: change the way we think and interact with stuff to 277 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: fit the technology. 278 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: And his whole idea was that that is the. 279 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: Inevitable outcome from the Industrial Revolution, and that ever since 280 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,479 Speaker 1: the Industrial Revolution, our society has been in a stranglehold 281 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,479 Speaker 1: at the service of technology and the people who serve technology, 282 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: and society has been restructured and reshuffled to the detriment 283 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: of the individual human to local communities as a whole, 284 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: and that the only way that this is so ingrained 285 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: now in our world, the only way to stop this 286 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: is to violently overthrow the current system. And he has 287 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: a very lase fair attitude about what comes after. He 288 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: said that we have no illusions about the feasibility of 289 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: creating a new ideal form of society. Our goal only 290 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: is to destroy the existing form of society. That was it, 291 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: That was the whole reason for his campaign was to 292 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: be one of the provocateurs of this revolution that upended 293 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: technological society. 294 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, here's another assummation of another part of the manifesto 295 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 3: about the social infrastructure that he says is dedicated to 296 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 3: modifying our own behaviors. This infrastructure includes an array of 297 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 3: government agencies with ever expanding police powers and out of 298 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 3: control regulatory system that encourages the limitless multiplication of laws, 299 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 3: an education establishment and stresses conformism. You biquit his television networks. 300 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 3: Who's Fair is essentially an electronic form of value, and 301 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 3: a medical and psychological establishment that promotes the indiscriminate use 302 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 3: of mind altering drugs. So again, I don't want this 303 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 3: to come across that I like look up to this 304 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 3: guy in anyway. But when you read some of the stuff, 305 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 3: you think, Man, if this guy had only reined it in, 306 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 3: he could have done good. 307 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 308 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: I can't remember what the turning point was, but there 309 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: was some there was some potential path that he was 310 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: on where he could have done this peacefully, and he 311 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: pulled back and went went a violent way. And I think, 312 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: I think quite rightly that if he were not locked 313 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: up for the rest of his life. He would he 314 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: would keep sending bombs out, he would not stop. No, 315 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: because he's he doesn't he's not a. 316 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 2: A moral agent. 317 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: He is rational agent, and he sees this as a 318 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: rational and to the means, to his means, which is 319 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: taking out people who may or may not be in 320 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: a position to advance technological society. 321 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and that's what was That's where the line 322 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,719 Speaker 3: the delineation occurs, where he was he's such a smart person. 323 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 3: But that's such a dumb like there's blowing someone up, 324 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 3: is gonna is not gonna halt any innovations or change 325 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 3: the course of where we're. 326 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 4: Headed as a society. 327 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 3: Right, it was just I mean to call it misguided 328 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 3: is the understatement of the year. 329 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: So and forgive me for armchair psychologalizing here, but now 330 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: you start to get into the idea of whether or 331 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: not he was fulfilling or indulging his own desire to kill. Well, 332 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: you never know, because if he is thinking about things 333 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: like this and he is such a rational person, surely 334 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: there would have been other ways to do this that 335 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: were either more productive or on the other hand, more destructive, right, 336 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: like sending a bomb that might take out one or 337 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: two or three people is not. It's and by making 338 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: these bombs painstaking lee by hand over the course of 339 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: months and probably years, sometimes that's not a very productive 340 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: way of achieving this goal. So it makes you wonder 341 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: did this guy just want to kill people and that 342 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: that coupled with this this view of technological society to 343 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: form what we know is the unibomber. 344 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 3: Well, I think that was probably the case, is he 345 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 3: was angry at where things were headed and he wanted 346 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 3: to take it out on somebody. 347 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, but again, I want to go back to this 348 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: idea that he is schizophrenic. 349 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: Right, there is a that is not necessarily the case. 350 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: He was given a temporary or provisional or conditional schizophrenic 351 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: or diagnosis of schizophrenia by a court ordered psychiatrist forensic psychiatrists, 352 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: and that was it. I don't I don't believe she 353 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: ever went back and made an official diagnosis. Other people 354 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: in the media, other psychiatrists were basically diagnosing them from afar. 355 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: Some psychiatrists met with him, but they didn't officially examine him. 356 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: So basically, just based on his actions and his manifesto 357 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: and what was contained within, he was largely given this 358 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: diagnosis of schizophrenia, and I couldn't find anything that said 359 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: that he's being treated for schizophrenia now, which is kind 360 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: of a big deal because it's a twofold big deal. 361 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: One it says it dismisses him as just a complete 362 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: madman who is delusional, but it also does a tremendous 363 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: disservice to people with schizophrenia because it says, this is 364 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: what people with schizophrenia do, They send bombs to people. 365 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: They go and live in like Montana alone for thirty 366 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: years and send bombs to people the whole time. So 367 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: it's doing that same armchair psycho logulizing that I was doing. 368 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: Is it's worse if you're an actual psychiatrist, you know? 369 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, I think we should talk a little 370 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 3: bit about how this manifesto came to be in public view, 371 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 3: because it's a super interesting sub story in itself. The 372 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 3: great great article from the Washington Post where I got 373 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 3: most of this part, but they make the point in 374 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 3: this article is super interesting to me that the time 375 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 3: that this happened, in the mid to late nineties, it 376 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 3: was a transitionary time in technology in and of itself, 377 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 3: and that the Internet was around, but it wasn't ubiquitous, 378 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 3: and it's not where everyone went for everything, including news. 379 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 3: So the fact that this publishing of the manifesto in 380 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 3: the Washington Post, which we'll talk about in a second, 381 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 3: it says here it was perhaps the last one, the 382 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 3: last newsworthy document to appear only in print, and it's 383 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 3: very ironic considering what he was railing against was that 384 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 3: it was before everyone was getting their news from the internet. 385 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 3: So the fact that they actually it was it was 386 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 3: an era that was it was being forgotten the newspaper, 387 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 3: print in print, and that's how he got his message 388 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 3: out finally by sending packages containing this manifesto to the 389 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 3: New York Times in the Washington Post in June of 390 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five. 391 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they each one got a package one day 392 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: after the other, and the one to the Post had 393 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: a return name and address Boon Long Ho thirty six, 394 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: nine Renoso Court, San Jose, California, nine to five one 395 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: three six. And it turns out that that address and 396 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: that person it was a He was a CFO of 397 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: a Thai circuit board maker whose headquarters were in San Jose. Yeah, 398 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: that was the address for that. So they you can 399 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: imagine that Boon Long Ho was pretty nervous, yeah, because 400 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: rather than being like the recipient of a bomb, he 401 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: was supposedly the center of this manifest to the Washington Post. 402 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: But the FBI investigated and quickly cleared Boon long Ho 403 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: and the Post and the Time suddenly had a decision 404 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: to make because in this package with this manifesto was 405 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: a letter that said, if you published this, I will 406 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: stop killing people. If you don't, I'm going to start, 407 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,959 Speaker 1: or we will start making our next bomb. 408 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, so they obviously got in touch with the FBI. 409 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 3: The FBI took one look at the letter and said, 410 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 3: I think this is from the un obomber. They went, duh, 411 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 3: of course it is. There is no well there Actually, 412 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 3: they didn't know at the time how many people were 413 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 3: sending these bombs, but they met with They had three 414 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 3: meetings i think with the FBI's director at the time, 415 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 3: Lewis Free, and the task force. And then two out 416 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 3: of those three meetings, Attorney General Janet Reno came. 417 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 2: That it's like such a nineties meeting nineties Lewis Free 418 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 2: and Jane Arena. 419 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah for sure. So they said, listen, we're 420 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 3: not in the safety business. We're not experts on this. 421 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 3: You tell us what you think we should do, and 422 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 3: then we'll make our mind up what we should do. Basically, 423 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 3: everyone said you should probably publish this because A we 424 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 3: can maybe tag and track newspapers in northern California where we. 425 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 4: Think he might be. B. Maybe someone will recognize this 426 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 4: guy and come forward. Was there a C. 427 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 2: No, it's the same b okay. 428 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: And so this is a note to all potential manifesto writers. Yeah, 429 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: if you are trying to keep your identity a secret, 430 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: probably refrain from publishing your thirty five thousand word manifesto 431 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: because you're going to out yourself. And that's exactly what 432 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: happened with Ted Kaczynski. The Washington Post and The New 433 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: York Times agreed to do this. Actually, the New York 434 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: Times is like, why don't you do it. We'll just 435 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: half the cost of printing and distribution. 436 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought that was pretty interesting. They didn't both 437 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 3: want to, but the Post said we'll do it if 438 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 3: you go have these, which is adorable, and they did. 439 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 3: And then they said here's what we'll do. Though, we're 440 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 3: not going to just put it in the newspaper. We're 441 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 3: going to print it in a special section with its 442 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 3: own type face, and it became a sensation. Like people 443 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 3: wanted copies of this thing, like extra copies for themselves, 444 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 3: wrote the newspaper, and they're like, we don't have any 445 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 3: other copies, And like we said, this is the last 446 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 3: time that this was sort of a viable Like now 447 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 3: anyone can throw anything on the internet. So it was 448 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 3: a really interesting time in the course of humanity that 449 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 3: this thing came out. 450 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: As far as like mad bombers go. Having the Washington 451 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: Post print your thirty five thousand word manifesto is pretty prestigious. 452 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, especially at that time. I can't decide whether 453 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: it be more prestigious today because anybody can just put 454 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: it out. 455 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 2: On the internet. 456 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: Probably so, But yeah, but I think at the time, 457 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: I mean, like newspapers were at still at the height 458 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: of their influence, you know, yeah, who knows, but at 459 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: the very you can imagine take Kazinsky's surprise and delight 460 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: when the Times published this thing. And like you said, 461 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 1: it was a sensation. But it made its way into 462 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: the hands of Linda Patrick, who was actually a childhood 463 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: friend of David Kaczinski and now his wife, and she 464 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: noticed this or She read this manifesto and said this 465 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: sounds an awful lot like your brother Teddy to David, 466 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: and he read it and he said, oh no. 467 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 3: Should we take a break? Yeah, all right, that's it, man, 468 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 3: what a cliffhanger. 469 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 2: Nice work. 470 00:26:40,040 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 4: Thanks all right, good cliffhanger. 471 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 2: Thank you. I feel like we're dangling by our fingernails. 472 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 3: So where we left off was Linda Patrick, wife of Well, 473 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 3: sister in law of the unibomber, wife of David, who 474 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 3: was the younger brother, said take a look at this. 475 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 3: David read it and said, this sounds very much like 476 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 3: my brother. In fact, there was a term what was 477 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 3: the term that he used that was sort of a 478 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 3: dead giveaway. 479 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 2: Cool headed logicians. 480 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's not something you hear every day. 481 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 2: I don't use that very frequently. 482 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 483 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 3: So he saw that, and I think I can't imagine 484 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 3: just the stomach churning, sinking feeling that he got right 485 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 3: when he saw those three words, especially. 486 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, like you said, that was the dead giveaway. I 487 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: think if you put the whole thing together. Though he 488 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: had been he and his family had been receiving, actually 489 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: he hadn't leading up to I think nineteen eighty nine. 490 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: He had been receiving letters from his brother about the 491 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: same stuff, So I think even without that term, he 492 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: probably would have been pretty convinced. 493 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: But he was convinced enough to go. 494 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: His wife, Linda, contacted a friend who was an investigator 495 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: for a lawyer, and this woman kind of took charge 496 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: of this and hired like a criminal profiler who looked 497 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: at the letters from Ted and then the unibomber manifesto 498 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: and said, I'm pretty sure this is the same guy. 499 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: They hired another lawyer who represented the family, and they 500 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: went to the FBI and said, we think we know 501 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: who the unibomber is. 502 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. 503 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 3: I thought that was interesting in that he didn't go 504 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 3: right to the FBI, like he took it. It seems like 505 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 3: I don't know how much time, but it said weeks. Yeah, 506 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 3: I went through a lot of effort privately to suss 507 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 3: out whether or not they thought it was legit. 508 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 4: I mean, I think he didn't. 509 00:28:58,160 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 3: I mean, by all accounts, he didn't want to do that, 510 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 3: and he was even worried what his mother would think. 511 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 3: And finally the mother did say, you know. She took 512 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 3: his head in her hands and kissed him and basically 513 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 3: was like, I know you loved Ted and you had 514 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 3: to do this. 515 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: Basically, she said, I knew it was Eufredo. 516 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 3: So now we should jump back in time and sort 517 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 3: of explain the relationship with David and Ted and how 518 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 3: they got here because they were estranged for twenty years 519 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 3: before this. Interestingly, you know, we talked about had he 520 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 3: not decided to start sending bombs, he could have led 521 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 3: a more productive life. 522 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 2: Oh easily. 523 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 3: But David was sort of cut from the same cloth, 524 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 3: like they bought this land together in Montana. 525 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: Hold on, I want to say something here, Chuck. You 526 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: just said that he could have led a more productive life. 527 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: I said that he could have been more productive earlier too. 528 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: Do you realize what we're talking about is we're saying 529 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: that he could have better fit into the technological system 530 00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: that he was railing. 531 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 3: Or not, or maybe have been an outspoken advocate in 532 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 3: a productive way on Facebook. 533 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: Shit, there you go, Sorry for interrupting. Has had to 534 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: point there. 535 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 3: No, that's all right. So they originally had bought this 536 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 3: land in Montana together. They both had these sort of 537 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 3: similar ideals about removing themselves from society. For David, though, 538 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 3: it was like back to nature, getting out of the 539 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 3: the hustle and bustle. 540 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 2: Of the world to find himself, to. 541 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 3: Find himself like a spiritual journey. For Ted, it seems 542 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 3: very much like I don't like people. Yeah, he was 543 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 3: a bit of a misanthrope. And they even have stories 544 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 3: dating back to when he was like seven years old, 545 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 3: when David asked mom, like, what's wrong with Teddy? Like 546 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 3: when people come over to visit, he runs to the 547 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 3: attic and hides something's wrong. And his mom said, you 548 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 3: know what, when he was a baby, he was hospitalized 549 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 3: for a few days with a rash and being separated 550 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 3: from us for those few days is what is caused this. 551 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: So and then she says, so, don't ever abandon Teddy. 552 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 2: That's what he fears the most. 553 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, not quite true actually, So. 554 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: She lays that on this kid, and this is like 555 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: her his older brother that she's talking to him about, 556 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: you know. But he said that as they grew up, 557 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: he was kind of like Ted's entree into socialization, Like 558 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: David would go to parties, and I get the impression 559 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: that Ted would kind of tag along even though he was. 560 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: The older brother. 561 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: But that's not to say that David didn't. He says 562 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: that he looked up to Ted, and Ted was just 563 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: this whiz kid, wonder boy, genius when it came to math. Yeah, 564 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: you said he went to Harvard at sixteen. Like, say 565 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: that again, man, he went to Harvard at age sixteen. 566 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he got like in master's and his 567 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 3: PhD in math by the time he was like twenty 568 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 3: or twenty one or something. 569 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, so this guy was a mathematical genius who, 570 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: from what the Atlantic article by Austin Chase says, kind 571 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: of lays a lot of a lot of this at 572 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: his dad's feet for pushing him. Yeah, at a very 573 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: early age to become like to go to Harvard, to 574 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: jump a couple grades in school, that kind of stuff. 575 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: So he was already you could say, misanthropic, potentially socially maladjusted. 576 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 2: Who knows. He wasn't like the. 577 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: Most easygoing kid on the block, but supposedly once you 578 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: got to do him, especially if you were a grown 579 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: up and not one of his peers, he was very 580 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: easy to be around. 581 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 2: Actually. 582 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, so little brother David, he looks up to Ted, 583 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 3: he tries to go to Harvard, is rejected, and then, 584 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 3: like I said, they bought this land together. Ted builds 585 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 3: this cabin. David later on says, well, can I build 586 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 3: a cabin? You know, I want to build a cabin 587 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 3: on this land too. Ted was like, no way, dude, 588 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 3: this is my cabin and my land. So David, I'm sure, was, 589 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 3: you know, very disappointed. He goes finds it his own 590 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 3: land in West Texas, built his cabin and they corresponded 591 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 3: for many years, one thousand miles apart, about their journeys 592 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 3: toward living off grid and getting back to nature. 593 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 594 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: I think he lived just like Ted did for at 595 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: least eight years, I believe. And then he said his 596 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: brother disowned him when he sent a letter saying that 597 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: he was moving out of the Forbidden Zone into upstate 598 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: New York to go marry Linda Patrick. 599 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 2: Right. 600 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he thought he was a sellout basically. 601 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 2: That's what I get too. 602 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: He sent him, like I think, a blistering twenty page 603 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: letter saying I'm done with you. We're done, and that 604 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: was it. That was the last contact that he had 605 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: had aside from one letter after their dad was diagnosed 606 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: with lung cancer. That was the only contact he'd had. 607 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: So he hasn't spoken to his brother, corresponded really with 608 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: his brother since nineteen eighty nine. 609 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, they had this system worked out where if there 610 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 3: was a family emergency, then David was to put a line, 611 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 3: draw a line under the stamp of the letter, and 612 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 3: that's the only thing that he would open. If you 613 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 3: send me any other letters, I'll burn them. And if 614 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 3: you take advantage of this system and fool me by 615 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 3: putting a line under it and it's not an emergency, 616 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 3: then I'm never going to open a letter again. So 617 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,479 Speaker 3: he did send that one letter with a line under 618 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 3: the stamp about his father. Ted didn't even reply except 619 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 3: to say thank you for sticking to our system, and 620 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 3: he didn't even mention the fact that their father was dying. 621 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: Right, So that was the last time they corresponded. Yeah, 622 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: that was in nineteen ninety four, but that was it 623 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: for the correspondence from basically from eighty nine onward, David 624 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: and Ted were estranged. And so come nineteen ninety five, 625 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: David's already not spoken with his brother for six years, 626 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: and now he suddenly has faced with this idea of 627 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 1: turning his brother in. Yeah, knowing that he's probably going 628 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: to get the death penalties. So when they finally did 629 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: go to the the FBI, and the FBI had their 630 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: own linguistic analysis done on these letters and they. 631 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 2: Said, yeah, this is the guy. 632 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: David started this campaign to paint his brother as mentally 633 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: ill in order to thwart the federal prosecutors from seeking 634 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: the death penalty. So apparently they told him that they 635 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't and then they reneged on that, and he felt 636 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: extremely betrayed, so much so that he's apparently a crusader 637 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: for an anti death penalty activist now based on that 638 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: betrayal from the federal prosecutors. 639 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is amazing. He works. 640 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 3: He's the head of the New Yorkers Against the Death 641 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 3: Penalty group. And get this, I know you know this 642 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 3: talking to everyone else. 643 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 2: Okay. 644 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 3: His closest friend, his bestie is Gary Wright, who is 645 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 3: one of the computer store owners in Utah who was 646 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:55,399 Speaker 3: a victim of Ted. 647 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, they became good friends. 648 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 3: Friend, two pieces of shrapnel lodge in his body from 649 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 3: one of Ted's bombs, and now he and David Kazinski 650 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 3: are best buds. 651 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: And so also from that same bomb that was nineteen 652 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: eighty seven, one of. 653 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 2: Is it Gary, right? 654 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 4: Gary us bonds? 655 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 2: No, Gary Wright? 656 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:18,479 Speaker 4: Yeah? 657 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: I think Okay, Gary Wright's employee is the woman who 658 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: saw the unibomber and gave that description to this sketch artist. Wow, 659 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: I know that was a turning point in a bunch 660 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: of people's lives right there. 661 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, that sketch didn't even look like him really. 662 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: Though, I've seen people be like, gosh, it's the spinning 663 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: image of them. It's like, no, once you have oversized 664 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: aviators on and it doesn't look like anybody. Yeah, So 665 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: David turns on his brother Ted. Kazinski's arrested on April third, 666 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,879 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six. He pleads guilty in nineteen ninety eight, 667 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: and he's been serving his eight consecutive life sentences ever since. 668 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: And recently there was a big few were I think 669 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: in twenty twelve or thirteen. When the twenty twelve I 670 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: guess because it would have been his fiftieth class reunion. Yeah, Harvard, 671 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: the people running his class, in publishing the class directory, 672 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: reached out to him like they did everybody. 673 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 2: Else in the class. 674 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: That's crazy and send him a form to fill out, 675 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 1: and he filled it out and sent. 676 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 2: It back in and they published it. 677 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 4: Yeah. 678 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 3: He said his job was a prisoner and that he 679 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 3: he listed his that was it eight life sentences as awards. 680 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and gave his address at the Florence, Colorado super 681 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: Max facility. And it was a huge Obviously, it was 682 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,760 Speaker 1: a huge embarrassment for Harvard because they were not paying 683 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: attention and a bit of a scandal too. I think 684 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,800 Speaker 1: Ted Kazinski probably thought it was hilarious. 685 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, should we finish with a little dy new mom 686 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 3: about this weird Harvard experiment? 687 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 2: Only if you say d new Ma again, all. 688 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 3: Right, So going back in time once again to follow 689 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 3: fifty nine through spring of nineteen sixty two, there was 690 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 3: an experiment at Harvard University led by psychologist Henry Murray 691 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 3: and how they describe it here in this article as 692 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 3: a disturbing and what would now be seen as ethically 693 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 3: indefensible experiment on twenty two undergrads. They each undergrad that 694 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 3: took part. Ted Kazinski was one of them, had had 695 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 3: a code name for the purposes of anonymity, and ironically 696 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 3: Ted Kazinski's was Lawful was his code name. So basically 697 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 3: what would happen is is they would get it. It 698 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 3: was interrogation is what they would go through. So they 699 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 3: would go into a room, they would go downstairs, to 700 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 3: this basement room and then a voice would say, you know, 701 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 3: enter the room. They would enter the room, they would 702 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 3: sit down and be faced with a spotlight that would 703 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 3: blind them in an otherwise dark room. And then they 704 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 3: would sit in front of a board of inquisitors that 705 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 3: would order them to do things kind of start slow 706 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 3: and then eventually build up to where they're screaming and 707 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 3: yelling at these kids, these in Ted's case, I guess, 708 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 3: like sixteen seventeen years old, and berating them basically. 709 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: And this was not just like you you dressed like 710 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: a slob, or you know, your mother's meat loaf is terrible, 711 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: like part step one of all is this was that 712 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: you're you were supposed to talk about some of your 713 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: most deeply held beliefs, Yeah, the most treasured beliefs in 714 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:42,800 Speaker 1: values and views on things. 715 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 2: And then these. 716 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: These inquisitors, who were actually like like law student graduate students, 717 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 1: would would harangue you over your beliefs and explain to 718 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: you why they were so stupid and why you were 719 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: such a useless human being for holding these beliefs. And 720 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: the whole point of this, the entire point was to 721 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: find out the psychological limits for humiliation and stress brought 722 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 1: on by humiliation and when people would crack. And this 723 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: is not a one time thing that he went and 724 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: did for extra credit. This was carried out over three years. Again, 725 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: the kids sixteen at the time. He's already socially awkward. 726 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: He's already isolated from his peers just by the virtue 727 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: of his intelligence, let alone his personal choices at being 728 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,399 Speaker 1: isolated from everybody, and he's being harangued by like these 729 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 1: people about his most deeply held beliefs. His brother David 730 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 1: said in another article, he doesn't believe that that had 731 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: anything to do with creating the UNI bomber. Plenty of 732 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 1: other people are like, no, I'm not so sure about that. 733 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 3: Well, here's what I think. And what was the name 734 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 3: of the article from the Atlantic. Did Harvard create the unibomber? 735 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 2: Harvard and the making of the unibomber? 736 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it certainly didn't help, especially when he had this 737 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 3: core belief system that was so firmly entrenched. For to 738 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 3: sit in a room for three years off and on 739 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 3: and be criticized and screamed at and called a liar 740 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 3: and denigrated like that, I'm sure it did not help. 741 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, supposedly it wasn't a very relativistic person. It was 742 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,720 Speaker 1: things were black and white, and if you believe something 743 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: was right, it was right. So to have it as 744 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 1: sailed like that, yeah, surely it had some effect somewhere. 745 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 3: It just couldn't well, I mean, ka Ted Kazinski later 746 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 3: said that Harvard were the worst years of his life. 747 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, so in some small way, I guess he got 748 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: him back by getting that published in the directory and 749 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,279 Speaker 1: embarrassing the class. 750 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 751 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, revenge is a meal best serve of cold through 752 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 3: a tiny slot in a metal. 753 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 2: Door, doing eight life sentences. 754 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you got anything else. 755 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 4: I got nothing else. Man. That was a good one, 756 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 4: it really was. 757 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 2: And again I think it bears repeating. 758 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,839 Speaker 1: Nothing about what we've said that agreed with the unibomber 759 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: and his theories has anything to do with agreeing with 760 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: violence of any kind, especially indiscriminate random killing of people 761 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: with bombs through the mail. It's probably the most cowardly 762 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,479 Speaker 1: way you could injure or hurt anybody. So we don't 763 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: agree with that at all. It's fine to say it 764 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: one more time, Yeah, for sure. If you want to 765 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,280 Speaker 1: know more about the unibomber, it's all over the place 766 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 1: you can go. Type that word you N A B 767 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: O M B E R in your favorite search bar 768 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 1: and it will bring up lots of stuff. And in 769 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: the meantime, it's time for listener mail. 770 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,320 Speaker 4: I'm going to call this subway episode. 771 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 3: Remember we release our selects on Saturdays, and I believe this. 772 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 4: I don't know if it was this one of your picks. 773 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 3: No, I guess it was mine then on Subways. So 774 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 3: it's an old episode, but a recent re release. O La, 775 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 3: Josh and Chuck. I'm in Andrea from Mexico. I've been 776 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 3: listening to your podcast for a bit over a year now, 777 00:42:58,360 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 3: but it's first time I'm writing in I listened to 778 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:02,279 Speaker 3: and even though it's a rerun, I really wanted to 779 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 3: comment because I have some fun facts. As you mentioned 780 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 3: in the episode, sometimes digging for subways has led to 781 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 3: curious discoveries. In case of Mexico City, the digging of 782 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 3: the metro led to the discovery of a lot of 783 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 3: the remains of the Aztec city. Even though it was 784 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 3: common knowledge that the Spanish city had been built over 785 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 3: the ruins of Oh here we go, Tina. 786 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 4: Titlan, that was pretty much it close. 787 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 3: It was only when excavation started in the sixties that 788 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,879 Speaker 3: they could uncover a whole underground world. Since then, they 789 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 3: have uncovered more than twenty thousand archaeological objects and continue 790 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 3: to find new things to this day. If you have 791 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 3: a chance to walk around the city center, you may 792 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 3: find the Templo Mayor right beside the Spanish Cathedral. Who 793 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 3: else can say their everyday commute includes walking by the 794 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 3: altar of eh catal Nice, god of wind. Anyway, I 795 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 3: think these are very interesting fun facts that I wanted 796 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 3: to share with you and the fellow listeners. Maybe one 797 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 3: day you can do how Mexico City works episode. The 798 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 3: history of the city is super interesting. I think it's amazing. 799 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:04,759 Speaker 3: You can literally see the layers of time in the 800 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 3: city today. And she attaches some pictures and this is 801 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 3: Andrea Gonzalez and man, we should do a show in 802 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 3: Mexico City. Sure, man, I bet you we could get 803 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 3: a thousand people. 804 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:19,800 Speaker 2: We we'll find out. 805 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 4: Into a room. 806 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 3: I know we haven't delved outside of English speaking countries before, 807 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 3: but I bet you, of all the cities, we could 808 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,280 Speaker 3: probably do so in Mexico City. 809 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 810 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: If Morrissey does good in Mexico City, I'm sure we 811 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: could too. 812 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 4: That's kind of we try and model our career after Maz. 813 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 2: Did you see that picture she sent? 814 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, the altar of the wind God. I'm like humans 815 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: were sacrificed on that. Yeah, that's insane that you just 816 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,320 Speaker 1: walk past that on. 817 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 2: Your way to the subway every day. I know, it's 818 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 2: pretty interesting. 819 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: Well, if you want to tell us about your interesting commute, 820 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:53,919 Speaker 1: we always want to hear stuff like that. You can 821 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,840 Speaker 1: tweet to us at sysk podcast. You can send us 822 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,239 Speaker 1: an email The Stuff podcast at HowStuffWorks dot com. As 823 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: always joined us at our home on the web, stuffishoudo 824 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: dot com. 825 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 4: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. 826 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,720 Speaker 3: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 827 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,800 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.