WEBVTT - Ep. 266: Crying Wolf 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:17.680 bug bitten in my case underwear. Listening to Hunt podcast, 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:22.440 you can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:26.080 are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:28.960 the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store. 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:36.760 Nor where you stand with on X. All right, everybody, 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:41.440 joannest there's a note from your honest in the notes 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.800 says a note, can we please introduce all guests at 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.600 the beginning of the podcast? This is Ben Janni's for years, 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:58.600 for years. All that man wants Yanni. I like to 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:00.880 have the suspense. I don't introduce him because I like 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.520 to create a suspense because I think a lot of 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:08.920 people just listen because they're like one of Brody's there, right, Okay, Well, 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:13.800 I just want you to know that, uh, there's another 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.560 man sort of sitting on my shoulders that's talking to 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:22.000 my ear all the time as you're not introducing the guests, 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.240 and you can probably guess who that is. It's the 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:29.640 same man that thinks you should not heat birthing tubs 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:38.880 with su vied devices. Correct your father? Correct? Do you 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:41.679 like in movies? Do you like if if you're watching 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:43.240 the movie, do you want to know right when the 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:48.400 movie starts, what's gonna happen? No, yeah, I can tell 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:50.600 you who would though. It would be my kids. We've 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:54.680 recently started to introduce them to uh The Star Wars, 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.120 and so we watched four or five six over the 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:01.160 last two weeks. And they cannot take it if they 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:05.480 get that feeling of anticipation, just a little teeny teeny bit. 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.520 They cannot stand it that they know something is about 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:11.680 to happen and they don't know what it is. When 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:17.440 you know, after we met, you know, the after we met. 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:20.800 I don't know if he talks about this though. Anyways. 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:24.840 I was watching the Where the Red Fern Grows and 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:28.880 then uh Old Yeller with my kids, and before we 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:33.880 got into it, I told him, listen, these dogs. You know, 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:35.959 the dog dies in the end, right. I just want 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:39.400 you to know this up top, so because I knew 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:43.399 that'd be upsetting to him. So watching the movie, they're 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:47.360 just enthralled. They love those movies. They get to the 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.160 end and I'm thinking, well, now that they're sucked into 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:55.480 the plot, they will, you know, stick it out now 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:57.760 that they know because they're sold you know, engrossed in 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.440 the story, but it gets up where you kind of 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.280 smell what's gonna happen, that the dog is gonna die, 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:09.320 and they just they want to turn it off and 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:13.960 walk out of the room. That I thought for sure 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:15.760 they would be like, wow, what the hell, it's tough 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:17.480 it out, But now they're like, oh, really he's gonna 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:21.399 die now, Okay, click done. I don't think they want 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.480 to deal with the emotional trauma. I'll tell you right now, 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.520 I'm right there with him. Now. When when when my 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.760 kid senses something coming up on a movie he doesn't 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:31.680 want to watch, He plugs his ears and runs out 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.880 of the room. No, he doesn't want you to want 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.280 to hear it, see it nothing. He's like, my god, 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.880 Luke Skywalker is gonna keep his arm in my mind. 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:45.720 And the old yellow dog. Uh okay, Yanni introduced everybody. 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:49.480 Then since since you know the give us this one 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:54.600 goes out with Yanni's dad. Oh jeez, all right, who 0:03:54.600 --> 0:04:00.240 all do we have here? Brody Anderson? Years ago in 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.120 old Colorado, it's maybe twenty years ago, dude, it's twenty 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.520 I got news for you, Halen from the Great State 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:12.960 of Pennsylvania, Brodie. Understand, all right, you know I'm dealing cards. 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.640 I'm just gonna pretend like John is uh right here 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:18.560 on my right hand side, so I'm gonna continue to 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:22.200 deal cards. They're Stephen Ronnella at the head of the table, 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:33.280 Ryan Callahan's yellow, Karin Snyder Schneider, Schneider, I am a Schneider, 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:38.400 you like the al right, uh Phil or lovely podcast engineer. 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:44.159 And then the esteemed author John MoU Allen, who we 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.320 had on I guess three years ago or so to 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:54.640 discuss his book The Wild Ones. Yes, nailed it was Bay. 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:56.800 We're gonna discuss Oh no, let's not tell him what 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:59.480 which book we're gonna discuss. Do like a little suspense 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.839 a little bit. It just Yanni's dad wants to know 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.120 who's there, but he doesn't want to know. Why are 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:08.720 we leaving out the mystery guests for now? Yeah, all right, 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.720 just to keep yann his dad at the edge and see, 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.880 just just keep him irritated so there is a little 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.080 surprise for people coming later on. I just got home 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.279 last night from Mexico. We went down for spring break. 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.520 We go every year we go to Yeah, I guess 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:28.839 I could say every year now because for a lot 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.560 of years we've done this. We go down to East Cape, 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:35.839 so southern Baja Peninsula and fish and just sit on 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.920 the beach and stuff. It was fun. But I almost 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:41.080 got I'm almost not here. The reason I bring this 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:45.440 up because you now, right, you have to show that 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:49.279 you haven't had COVID to get on a plane. And 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.279 they got this big testing facility set up at the 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.200 airport Baha. It's like a big tent. You get results 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:59.440 in thirty minutes. Uh. The tricky part is, you know 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.760 there's false positives and stuff from the thing. So it's 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.680 little unnerving. If you have a family of five, like you're, 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:07.840 you feel like you're rolling the damn dice. Yeah, and 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.039 you and you've had it, Well, that's the trouble. So 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.880 I had my my paperwork from the health department, the 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.000 county Health department, and I had my paper all I 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:20.400 had a official stamp on it, official signature on it, 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.520 and it said like what day you know, whatever, what 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.040 day you had it, and this and that, and it 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:32.240 says you can resume normal activities. In my case, you 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:38.640 can resume more normal activities January. Um. But Delta, who 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.760 I'm normally a fan of uh won't accept it, And 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:46.440 they said, or you need a letter saying that you're 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:48.600 cleared for travel, And I'm like, but it says right here, 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.200 I can resume normal activities in January. Nowhere can you 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:57.239 find point to me a website that says that spells 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:02.880 out that requirement that leveling isn't normal activity. I'm not 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:04.640 putting this on you, Brody. I just mean, like, no 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:09.920 one could point. So it's Sunday, I can't get hold 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.160 of me. You call, you call your doctor's office, and 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.000 it'll be like, you know, if it's an emergency, call whatever, 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.040 and in the fight's gonna leave. My whole family now 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.720 has their tests. So I go down, I go to 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:27.360 the tent and and you know, it's my faults. I 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.560 don't speak Spanish, so I'm not I'm not blaming anybody. 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:31.680 It's like, I'm not blaming anyone but myself. But it's 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:38.560 very hard to convey my concerns. And I'm going to 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:41.280 do the rapid test. And the thing is once you've 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:46.680 had it, like you can get these residual positives. So 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:48.360 I take the test and be like, I'm either going 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:53.240 to be in Mexico for a couple of weeks fishing, yeah, 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:58.080 minus my family or and thankfully it came back negative 0:07:58.080 --> 0:07:59.400 and I was able to get on the damn plane. 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:02.640 So you were trying to say, like, listen, I need 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.760 a test, but here's my unique situation, and they're like, 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:08.600 you need a test or you don't need I was like, 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.680 what do you think? What like, what's your take on 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:16.760 this situation? You know, can you like barely swab my nose? 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.480 You know? And they man, they were just it was 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:25.040 very binary, oh for sure, but just gets hilarious because 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.800 you could suck out the language part. Put you on 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.840 any place in the planet in that situation, and I 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.800 guarantee that person is gonna be like, bro, I'm not 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.959 here to think about your situation. I'm here to swab 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.480 you or not. I want to know if it was 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:42.880 the family upset or were they just ready to leave 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:49.240 you there? Uh yeah, I don't know. It wasn't like that. 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:51.480 What the kids were that they get they get a 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.880 little uh, they get a little anxious about stuff like that. 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.120 You know, I'll be like whenever see each other again. 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:02.199 They they were getting anxious, especially the oldest one. He 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:04.559 kind of he was tracking what was he was tracking 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:06.560 what was going on and was not liking what he's hearing. 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:08.520 He's not quite old enough to be like, listen, I 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.319 have a boarding routine, and I just need to get 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:16.280 into my routine. You deal with you, Yanni. Remember how 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.800 I was telling you about all about um this thing 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.480 in Germany that that I I was that I didn't 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.120 really know what I was talking about, but I had heard. 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.040 I had heard that in Germany you put your dog 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:32.120 in a barrel with a raccoon and they du get out. 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.280 Are you remembering this? That's right? Okay, well the guy 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:41.760 and I said, and I got around equating this to NAVDA, 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.760 which is the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association of 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.520 which my friend Ronnie is you know, he's always been 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:52.040 very involved there. Um and and the president. I remember, 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:55.400 I just want to sing clear my name. I remembering. 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:05.120 I remember being a little incredulous, little skeptical of your statement. Well, oh, 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:09.960 i'd heard this German thing a bunch for me. No, 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.600 not from you. I don't want to get into how 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.480 I know about it, but I know about it, and 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:23.800 I know what's here's listen, typically associated with drop stars. Yeah, 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.880 and it's like, I don't know what that is. It's 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.480 one of those dogs. It's like a shade of a 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.680 hair of a difference between a German short haired pointer Navidad. 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:34.680 This is Ryan Callahan. You can come on after me 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:39.360 for this statement, my apology, and then you come with him. 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.280 You guys got to back up about why you put 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.920 your dog in a barrel with it, Pam. It's called 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:51.240 the sharpness like a barrel better a sharpness test here. 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:55.240 I don't want to get into it like I didn't 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:57.040 make this up. I don't wake up one day and 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.720 make up there's such a thing to fight. I believe 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.960 it's something people would do to Why would they do 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.480 it though? That's why I'm saying. They call it like that. 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.160 He's got them these that he's blood. He got sharpness, 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:11.840 sharpness which is like a which is a which is 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:16.200 a soft term for having a lot of gird. Yeah, 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.520 you don't want spirit, you want your coon dog running 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.319 away from a raccoon. It's just a way to test 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:28.000 like that. That dog is the high test fighter. Yeah, Okay, 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:32.040 I did not Ronnie. Ronnie had explained to us that 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:39.120 historically when they hunted farms game farms in Europe, they 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:43.400 wanted their upland bird dogs if they came upon a 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.880 vermin to kill it. Well, he's coming on the show 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.560 pretty soon. Can you remember that Ranny could talk about 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:54.520 this whole thing, because he's got me all in trump, possums, raccoons, skunks, 0:11:54.640 --> 0:12:00.240 egg eaten things, feral cats, anyhow, he were it in. 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:07.640 He's fired up, very friendly. David Trehan Tryan Treyhan, President, President, 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.600 North American Versaal Hunting Dog Association, wants us to know 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:15.680 that this sort of thing, he said, I made what 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.520 sounded like a vague, factually incorrect reference to the sharpness 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:23.840 test used in some German testing systems that are unrelated 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:28.199 in NAVDA, And he doesn't know where I'm getting this 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.760 whole barrels with the raccoon thing anyway. So he's like, 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:32.760 you got that wrong, and then you got the fact 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:36.160 that this has something to do with NAVEDA wrong. Says 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.120 it's neither condoned by NAVDA, nor, to the best of 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:44.000 my knowledge, practiced by any of our members. We're concerned 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.160 that listeners who are unfamiliar with NAVDA, our goals and 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.160 our mission might come away from that discussion thinking that 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.440 has done at all, or worse, thinking that it's common 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:57.240 practice and that would be truly unfortunate. And he goes 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.319 on to say they have eighty five chapters, ten thousand men, birds, 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:05.199 US and Canada. And although some aspects of our testing 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:09.440 system are based loosely on those used in Germany, NAVI 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:14.200 does not evaluate dogs performance related the hunting mammals of 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:21.160 any species. Rather, we focus exclusively on upland and waterfowl hunting. 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.960 And they are dedicated to treating all animals, including dogs 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:31.840 and game, with respect and dignity. So remember and remember 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:36.240 that show Happy Days. Fonzie was he was he wasn't 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:46.800 able to say wrong. He'd be like, I was ru Yeah, 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.320 I mean I was wrong, Like I was wrong. Hey, 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:54.920 you corrected it, but you know that was wrong. I 0:13:54.960 --> 0:14:03.000 should still a little bit. It's not fair. I was wrong. Okayky, 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:08.560 I'll tell them about the moss balls. Oh boy, m okay. 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.000 So apparently if you're an aquarium enthusiast, you buy these 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:16.520 moss balls to drop in your aquarium tank. Um. And 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.800 this is something that's distributed through like all these national 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:24.480 pet store chains. And it was found that there are 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:30.440 some zebra muscles inside moss balls. Zebra muscles proliferate at 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:37.080 a high higher rate. They are are bad for native ecosystems. 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:42.120 Is a non native species like like transforming, like what 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:46.520 zebra muscles in the Great Lakes. If if, if you're 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.600 worried about wolves in Colorado, you should be worried about 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:51.960 zebra muscles in your neck of the woods. But there 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:58.920 are Great Lates zebra muscles sympathizers. Yeah, Okay, here's one scenario. 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:04.800 With all to respect, there are, yeah, but the Great Lakes. 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:09.480 So they're like an experimental aquarium anyway, It's like it's 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.280 already all made. Never mind, go ahead, I'm staying out. 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:15.160 I'm done. I'm done. I'm gonna talk about this rabbit fever. 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:19.320 Deal with this little girl. That's it. Um muscles, Right, 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:24.520 they filter feed. They eat zo plankton and phytoplankton. So 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:29.440 in systems where we see maybe just dirty water, that 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:34.080 can oftentimes be a shipload of food that all of 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.200 our fish, including game fish, when they're at a very 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.760 young age, they depend on that zo plankton phytoplankton to 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.440 get large enough to where they can then start being 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.320 more fun fish to catch. If you're just worried about 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:52.000 game species, right, um what zebra muscles can do is 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:56.320 they proliferate so heavily. They can clean a system so 0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:59.800 much to where that water is crystal clear and you're like, 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:02.040 oh my god, how pretty the lake is. Must be 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.960 must be good, must be good talking, but it can 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:09.720 be very very scarce on life. And um, then you 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:11.800 can get in all this other stuff that like the sun, 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.960 sun's rays are penetrating way deeper in the water calling 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.200 than they used to be, and then other things that 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.320 can proliferate and the oxygen can go way down in 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:24.960 the lake and then everything dies. Okay, vegetation, You get 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.400 aquatic vegetation in places you never had it before. Yes, 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.280 and then it's only suitable for what always lives, which 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:40.000 is carp um. Anyway, your aquarium moth balls, moss balls, okay, 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:44.200 old moss balls. Don't I would think, don't just pitch 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:46.760 them out in the yard. I was calling them zebra 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.080 balls on the podcast. I thought that was cute. Um, 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:52.640 don't pitch them out in the yard or just throw 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.600 them away. If you have purchased some of these things, 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.000 I'm sure is there a brand name? Like, what is there? 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.600 I didn't see a brand name, but these are apparently 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:09.399 like ubiquitous amongst uh you know, national pet store chains 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.160 and things like that. So uh, take them, throw them 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.240 all in the freezer for a good twenty four hours, 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:17.439 or like most people do, we'll just forget about them 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.280 for several months, and then then by the next time 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:24.720 you come across him, then you're cool to throw them away. Um. 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.760 Or you know, you can like soak them in bleach 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.280 um and then throw them away. But the the worst 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.000 thing you can do is like don't flush them down 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.800 the drain or throw them out in the storm drain 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:39.640 or something like that. One of the broody was talking 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:43.439 about zebra muscle sympathizers. I'll tell you who's not is 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:47.320 industry in general, because like filtration systems and stuff like that. 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:53.360 Uh uh yeah, they clog them up. You're water power plants, 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:56.720 stuff like that. I don't know what the actual number is, 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.960 but it's like a billion dollars a year just managing 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.440 of the things, yeah, cleaning cleaning them off. Yeah. So 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:07.280 like Montana, you know there's water, there's watercraft check stations 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:11.360 all over the place, uh in the summer months, and 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:16.399 one of the things they're looking for are zebra mussels inside. Um. 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:23.680 The the building area of your watercraft. And then if 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.840 you look at this stuff online, you'll always see like these, 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:31.800 um kind of stereotypical pictures of zebra muscles being stuck 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.840 all over old boat props and the bottoms of boats 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:40.359 and and uh and then like in the Great Lakes especially, 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:45.240 you get like on the lock systems. Uh. Just yeah, 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:49.239 somebody's making good money cleaning off zebra muscles. So if 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:57.600 you got moss balls, bleach them, bleach, bleach your balls. Uh. Okay, 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:02.920 this is for Easter. Tu Larima story for Easter. A 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:07.800 guy a listener wrote in Um, he says he's got 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:13.200 a public service announcement, so he's apparently a Tonka truck enthusiast. 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:19.000 That's how this starts. Correct, He's a Tika truck enthusiast 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.119 and wakes up and checks on Craigslist and sees that 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.760 there's a kid selling a bunch of Tonka trucks. Sow 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:32.119 him being a Tonka enthusiast. Um, it's funny. I we 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:33.880 have a lot of Tika trucks, and I as a kid, 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:38.600 and I imagined my mother's attic being sort of this 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:44.960 repository of amazing vintage perfect Tonka trucks. It must just 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:47.880 be up there, and I got my kids pretty excited 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:49.760 for a trip to Grandma's. Went up There's just not 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.679 what I remember. Did you get rid of them? Are? 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:56.879 They just was like by a bunch of tiker trucks. 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.840 I mean, there's one that's not a tiger truck. It's 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:04.960 got three tires. I'm not sure what happened over the 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:12.359 last thirty years. It's not the attic I imagined it being. Uh, 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:15.040 he's a time enthusiasts. So he goes to the guy. 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:17.440 He goes by. He goes to this kid's house by 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.600 the time of trucks, makes his purchase, and the kids 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:26.280 mentions like, hey, I also raise rabbits, So meat rabbits. 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.320 The guy raises the meat rabbits. So he buys a 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:33.720 meat rabbit and the trucks and brings the rabbit and 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:37.600 the trucks home. But the meat rabbit he gets to 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.480 a seven year old and the meat rabbit scratches. The 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:46.920 seven year old barely drew blood. Everyone goes about their business. 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:51.119 Now imagine this now so we know where this is going. 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:54.320 But but picture that he gets a rabbit rabbit scratch 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.280 as a kid twenty days goes by. Her lift notes 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:01.520 swell up. She gets a high fee. Her go to 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:05.800 the hospital in Oregon. They keep focusing on has she 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:16.000 been scratched by a cat? Cat scratched? Fever? Damn furs? 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:21.240 Time man, I got it, so keep asking about cats. Um. 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.280 They give her some antibiotics, do nothing. Lymph nodes grow 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:29.640 to the size of an egg. They do a surgery 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:34.560 on the poor girl. They remove her tonsils, They remove 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:37.240 her lymph nodes. They leave a three inch scar on 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:43.040 her neck. A month goes by, the fever returns, the 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:47.879 lymph nodes swell again. They go to you see Davis again, 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.800 you've been scratched by a cat again? They say, No, 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.840 I forgot to mention this in Oregon where you scratched 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:57.479 by a cat? No, but she was scratched by a rabbit. 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:01.040 You see Davis where you scratched by a cat? No, 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:03.960 but she was scratched by a rabbit. All of a 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:06.760 sudden to realize that this poor girl has had to 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:13.880 lurma and it was not diagnosed. So they do more surgery. Relieved, 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:17.880 removed two more lymph nodes. A cluster of necrotic dead 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:21.199 lymph nodes deep inside her neck, some dead tissue and 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:25.159 skin around the area put around the right by right 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:30.520 antibiotic savor life. They nick a nerve that controls or smiles, 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:34.040 and now her smiles off. It's crooked. She's got a 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:39.000 six inch scar below the three inch scar. The guy's 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:43.560 father in law goes and kills the rabbit. Later, someone 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.840 from the Center for Disease Control and Sacramento calls to 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:51.600 interview the family. They thought she maybe had plague, doesn't 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:56.320 and then expresses disappointment in the family for having killed 0:22:56.320 --> 0:23:03.160 the rabbit, and they hung up on the person. Yeah, horrible, 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:05.720 guy says. With Easter coming up soon, I know people 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:07.879 be buying rabbits for their kids, and they should be 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:11.560 informed of this disease. Now, we talked about to Lorimi 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:15.840 extensively in the Wilderness Skills book, all the different ways 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:17.960 you can get it. You know, there was a guy, 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:19.600 I don't know if we mentioned this. Have you mentioned 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:23.240 this in the book? A guy that hit a desiccated rabbit, 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:27.280 a dead desiccated rabbit with a lawnmower and contracted a 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.439 airborne to lorimi and his lungs. Yeah, I think we 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:33.000 may have. And there's actually I think we mentioned that 0:23:33.040 --> 0:23:37.800 there there has been talk of weaponizing because you can 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:44.679 arisolize it scary. This guy says, um, this will give you. 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:47.000 He says, this will give you something besides c w 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:49.920 D to talk about. Then he goes on to say, 0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:53.040 if you have any health issues, he says, you know, 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:59.479 call your local trapper before seeking medical. I wonder if 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:04.600 they wipe out the uh the other if they went 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:10.520 to the kid's Yeah, I would think so. He probably 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:12.680 went back and he was probably selling Tonka trucks with 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:19.200 a rabbit the bag. Oh man, that's all that story is. Man, 0:24:19.240 --> 0:24:23.800 watch out for tik trucks. But in your long and 0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:28.720 illustrious cotton tail hunting career, how many have you come 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:31.120 across that you suspected of having to know? I don't 0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:32.440 check them, but you know what, I used to hunt 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:34.680 cotton tails with a guy. They had gotten to Loremia 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:36.960 from cleaning cotton tails. I make a point of looking 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.520 at the liver. I've never seen what I haven't checked. 0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:41.840 It was a bad one. This guy's name was Ken. 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:44.240 He was a hay farmer and he had gotten to 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:47.160 Loremi and his old man got to Loremia. And he's 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:53.120 still hunted rabbits. What's the lever supposed to look like? 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:57.040 Like yellow or white spots? I believe. I used to 0:24:57.080 --> 0:25:01.320 make rabbit tempera with for ken, make rice, cook a 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:03.720 bunch of vegetables, make a sweet and sour sauce. Cut 0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:06.240 the rabbit little strips. Make a little temper rabbit strips. 0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:08.120 Put it on there. Don't sweet and sour sauce all 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:13.760 over it sounds good. He liked it. Yeah, something fried 0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:16.240 with a bunch of sugar on it. Yeah, most people 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:23.520 are gonna dig that one. There's also that rabbit hammorrhagic disease. 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:27.480 It's still going around right now, which which is nasty. 0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:33.240 But um, that's just another observation thing. You know, call 0:25:33.320 --> 0:25:36.639 your local department and Natural Resources or fishing game and 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:39.080 let them. Yeah, there's a lot of good county by 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:41.240 county maps where you can see, like if all of 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:43.160 you've seen all kinds of dead rabbits, it will show 0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:45.800 this new hammorrhagic thing cruising around. Yeah, we should talk 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:51.480 about that more extensively sometimes. All right, John Wellmi ready, Yeah, okay, 0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:54.840 last time, tell about briefly recap the book we had 0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:58.520 you on about last time. Last time I was here 0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:02.200 talking about a book called Old Ones, which was about 0:26:03.320 --> 0:26:08.880 endangered species conservation. That's the most boring way to put it, um, 0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:10.560 and the more interesting way to put it is, it's 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:14.760 sort of about how America has treated and thought about 0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:18.480 its wildlife throughout its history. So, you know, why, why 0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:21.080 are we a country that at the beginning of one 0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:23.080 century we want to kill all the bears and at 0:26:23.119 --> 0:26:24.840 the end of another century when we want to make 0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:27.440 sure that the bears don't go extinct? Um. So there 0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:30.240 was a lot of on the ground reporting about the 0:26:30.359 --> 0:26:33.479 kind of byzantine efforts to save the last you know, 0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:37.120 Lang's metal mark butterfly at an industrial site in California 0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:38.959 and things like that, and then a lot of history 0:26:39.040 --> 0:26:42.560 about uh sort of you know, different eccentric characters throughout 0:26:42.560 --> 0:26:45.359 American history have had, you know, very unique ideas and 0:26:45.359 --> 0:26:50.520 and sometimes progressive ideas about are sort of obligations to 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:56.359 UH to wildlife. And in that conversation you hinted at 0:26:56.680 --> 0:26:58.800 because I think you were working on this back then, 0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:02.160 you were in this book. You're working on your book 0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:05.120 that became This Is Chance. Yeah, I've been working on that. 0:27:05.119 --> 0:27:08.000 That book, This Has Chance took me about six years 0:27:08.040 --> 0:27:11.639 of work Um. So I've been just amassing, you know, 0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:14.320 historical research for years and years, so it was very 0:27:14.400 --> 0:27:17.639 much always on my mind, and I probably you know, 0:27:17.680 --> 0:27:20.840 took any opportunity I could just start downloading the things 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:23.640 I was I was finding out at that point. Yeah, 0:27:23.840 --> 0:27:26.119 when you started working on tell people what this is. 0:27:26.320 --> 0:27:29.040 This is Chances. And then when you tell, like, explain 0:27:29.160 --> 0:27:33.240 what you were, what you were getting at when you 0:27:33.240 --> 0:27:37.360 started working on it, and and and how it kind 0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:40.200 of became different than what you thought. Yeah, well this 0:27:40.400 --> 0:27:43.200 is Chances, a book about the Great Alaska earthquake in 0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:46.640 nine four sometimes it was the Good Friday earthquake. Um. 0:27:46.640 --> 0:27:48.920 It happened on Good Friday evening, right as the sun 0:27:49.000 --> 0:27:52.520 was going down. Um. And the book basically tells the 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:57.520 story in in pretty intimate detail. Um, just the narrative 0:27:57.560 --> 0:27:59.760 of these first three days in the city of Anchorage. 0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:02.600 So this was a time, this is just a few 0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:07.320 years after Alaska statehood, when Anchorage was uh kind of 0:28:07.359 --> 0:28:10.800 you know, beginning to feel like a real metropolis in Alaska. 0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:13.960 I sort of saw itself as as fulfilling the promise 0:28:14.080 --> 0:28:17.040 of of what Alaska was gonna be. And suddenly you 0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:21.399 have this nine point two magnitude earthquake that shook the 0:28:21.440 --> 0:28:24.280 city for four and a half minutes and you know, 0:28:24.359 --> 0:28:27.080 just causing all kinds of destruction, but also really upending 0:28:27.440 --> 0:28:30.879 people's you know, sense of of their of their community. 0:28:31.240 --> 0:28:33.119 That that's the part that that's one of these that 0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:36.600 blows my mind about the the earthquake, one of the 0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:40.000 biggest earthquake in US history, right, Yeah, that's correct, the 0:28:40.040 --> 0:28:42.760 second most powerful one ever measured, and the and the 0:28:42.800 --> 0:28:45.040 most powerful one in the US. But the fact that 0:28:47.920 --> 0:28:50.600 I felt one once, that was like it was over 0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:53.440 before you could tell what you were feeling. But the 0:28:53.480 --> 0:29:00.280 fact that that lasted longer than a rock song, you'd 0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:05.840 almost like settle into it. It is kind of it's 0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:08.520 hard to imagine. Makes four and a half minutes seemed 0:29:08.600 --> 0:29:13.080 very long, very long. Yeah, that was definitely the first 0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:14.840 thing that grabbed me about it, one of the first, 0:29:15.440 --> 0:29:17.480 maybe the first thing I found about the earthquake, which 0:29:17.480 --> 0:29:18.640 I had never heard of. You know, I grew up 0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:21.120 on the East Coast. It's you know, happened fifteen years 0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:23.520 before I was born, or fourteen years before I was born. 0:29:24.000 --> 0:29:26.040 It just it just kind of went over my head 0:29:26.080 --> 0:29:28.320 that there had been this this disaster. So one of 0:29:28.360 --> 0:29:30.600 the first things I found was just this big report, 0:29:30.720 --> 0:29:36.480 you know, four hundred page report um of individual people's uh, 0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:38.920 you know, recollections of this is what was happening to 0:29:38.920 --> 0:29:40.840 me during those four and a half minutes. And you 0:29:40.880 --> 0:29:43.720 see a lot of like mental gymnastics of you know, 0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:46.000 first not like you're saying, not knowing what the hell 0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:47.959 is happening, And that can go on for a minute. 0:29:48.040 --> 0:29:50.200 You know, thirty people think it's it's the Cold War, 0:29:50.240 --> 0:29:52.360 people think it's a nuclear attack or whatever it is 0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:55.760 Judgment day, and then there's a kind of bargaining phase. 0:29:55.920 --> 0:29:59.040 You know, they're coming up with different different explanations, and 0:29:59.120 --> 0:30:01.200 some people, you know, just it seemed like they just 0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:03.320 kind of gave up hope that that they were ever 0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:05.520 gonna kind of make sense of this thing. You know, 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:07.240 there was enough time that you could kind of go 0:30:07.360 --> 0:30:10.560 through you know, certainty and fatalism and all these kinds 0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:13.680 of emotions and and just lock onto these these different 0:30:13.760 --> 0:30:17.400 bizarre images, uh that as your mind's trying to to 0:30:17.560 --> 0:30:19.040 make sense of them, trying to make some kind of 0:30:19.040 --> 0:30:24.720 story about what's happening to you. John, I have a question, Yeah, 0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:28.600 did anybody anyone of those reports ever say that, oh, 0:30:28.760 --> 0:30:33.200 at minute three, I just settled in. Uh, you know, 0:30:33.280 --> 0:30:36.040 they're they're definitely I don't think anyone put it so explicitly, 0:30:36.160 --> 0:30:38.760 but you definitely you could. There were There were definitely 0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:40.880 accounts where it was like, you know, I tried to 0:30:40.920 --> 0:30:43.440 hold on to this and that didn't work. So and 0:30:43.480 --> 0:30:45.680 they would go through four or five different things, you know, 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:47.760 and uh or you know, at first I was trying 0:30:47.760 --> 0:30:50.440 to keep my car from jerking into the opposite lane, 0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:52.760 but then the steering wheel was wrenching my wrists and 0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:54.880 that seemed dangerous. So then I decided to you know, 0:30:54.960 --> 0:30:58.120 hunker down here. So yeah, there was It's it's amazing, 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:00.560 you know. I mean if I recommend you actually just 0:31:01.040 --> 0:31:02.840 sit with a stop watch for four and a half 0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:05.600 minutes and see what that feels like, because you can 0:31:05.640 --> 0:31:08.320 go crazy when the earth's not shaking, you know. Um. 0:31:08.520 --> 0:31:11.320 So yeah, it's the that psychological part of it, the 0:31:11.400 --> 0:31:15.200 surreality of it and the disorientation. Um. I still can't 0:31:15.200 --> 0:31:17.160 really get my head around, you know. When you you 0:31:17.200 --> 0:31:20.480 mentioned growing up not knowing about that earthquake. Um, it's 0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:23.520 still lived. You know, my brother lives an anchorage has 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:26.880 been there for a very long time. Now, Um, it's 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:28.680 still almost like, I don't want to say it's a 0:31:28.760 --> 0:31:32.400 daily part of life, but it's it's just like it's 0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:36.640 the earthquake. And you know, we used to go hunt 0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:39.280 ducks in a place that used to be agricultural fields 0:31:40.680 --> 0:31:45.880 but it fell whatever eight ft and became a marsh. 0:31:46.200 --> 0:31:48.800 And there's still pieces of equipment and stuff sticking out 0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:52.440 of the water. You know. It's like people just like 0:31:52.480 --> 0:31:55.000 talk about it as as this thing, and there's still 0:31:55.040 --> 0:31:57.840 all the trees from the areas that slumped into the ocean, 0:31:58.040 --> 0:32:02.280 trees sticking up. Yeah. Yeah, there were a lot of 0:32:02.480 --> 0:32:05.480 you're probably talking about Portage. There was this whole, yeah, 0:32:05.520 --> 0:32:08.520 a whole a whole little community that just exactly just 0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:13.120 sunk and got inundated by by the salt water. But yeah, 0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:14.800 I think that's that's what struck me to when I 0:32:14.800 --> 0:32:17.160 went to Anchorage. There's there's places that you know, they 0:32:17.200 --> 0:32:19.920 just couldn't really rebuild in the way they wanted to, 0:32:20.040 --> 0:32:23.480 you know. So the there's an earthquake park Um, which 0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:26.760 was basically the luxury neighborhood of Anchorage at the time, 0:32:26.800 --> 0:32:30.240 that just sloughed off this ridge onto the shore line 0:32:30.280 --> 0:32:32.160 and now now it's a park you can hike through. 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:35.720 They've got little interpretive signs and things. Um. Yeah, it's 0:32:35.800 --> 0:32:37.800 very much a part of the identity of the city. 0:32:37.840 --> 0:32:40.880 I think. Um, it's a city that is really proud 0:32:40.880 --> 0:32:42.640 of its history, and it doesn't have you know, as 0:32:42.760 --> 0:32:45.560 long or you know, as crowded of a history as 0:32:45.600 --> 0:32:48.440 some other uh you know, cities on the in America. 0:32:48.520 --> 0:32:51.280 So yeah, it's a real touchstone for people. One of 0:32:51.320 --> 0:32:53.200 the things I liked about the book is explains a 0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:56.880 little bit about I know, it's like it's hard, we'll 0:32:56.920 --> 0:33:02.040 get to what the book narrows in on, but uh, Richter, 0:33:03.040 --> 0:33:05.160 like you you always here. You know the Richter scale. 0:33:05.320 --> 0:33:08.360 And I remember in early college I had to take 0:33:08.400 --> 0:33:12.200 geology one O, one or something and they explain how 0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:16.120 that scale is exponential. So a nine is ten times 0:33:16.120 --> 0:33:21.880 worse than a than an eight. Um. But I guess 0:33:21.920 --> 0:33:23.360 you thought you thought I was worth putting in your 0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:28.800 book talk about what Richter, like, the guy Richter, what 0:33:28.880 --> 0:33:31.760 he was doing, and how this earthquake kind of played 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:35.160 into his work and life. Yeah, I love that you 0:33:35.200 --> 0:33:37.160 asked about that. I mean, I know that as a writer, 0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:39.760 you know, you probably read that. I knew exactly what 0:33:39.760 --> 0:33:41.760 what was going on, which was, you know, there's not 0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:44.520 a lot of science in the book. But I started 0:33:44.560 --> 0:33:46.200 reading about Richter and I was like, I gotta get 0:33:46.200 --> 0:33:48.200 this guy in here somehow. I was like, yeah, you're 0:33:48.200 --> 0:33:50.360 like doing a book. You sometimes you're like, I don't 0:33:50.400 --> 0:33:53.480 care how I'm jamming this in. Yeah, I don't care 0:33:53.480 --> 0:33:55.600 where I put it. That was definitely it. I was like, 0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:58.080 you know, if it's okay, I'll give him two pages. Okay, 0:33:58.360 --> 0:34:01.080 oh you don't like that, editor, have at one page? 0:34:01.120 --> 0:34:03.120 Al right, how about half a page? But yeah, but 0:34:03.160 --> 0:34:04.920 I got him in there, and then you of course 0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:06.760 zeroed right in on it. And that's the first first 0:34:06.760 --> 0:34:09.560 thing we're gonna talk about. But yeah, Charles Richter. Um. 0:34:09.719 --> 0:34:11.600 I didn't know anything about the guy. But he wasn't 0:34:11.719 --> 0:34:16.280 He was an odd duck. Um he was he he um. 0:34:16.360 --> 0:34:18.719 You know, I sort of uh, I sort of had 0:34:18.719 --> 0:34:21.160 this image of him as this kind of like, uh, 0:34:21.160 --> 0:34:24.360 someone who's exceptionally good at the science he's doing and 0:34:24.440 --> 0:34:27.359 kind of exceptionally bad at every other facet of of 0:34:27.440 --> 0:34:32.640 social existence, you know. And uh he he was in 0:34:32.719 --> 0:34:35.239 a kind of polyamorous relationship for a while and wrote 0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:37.760 a lot. You know, was seemed not so sensitive about 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:40.600 it and have the great greatest sensitivities about he was 0:34:40.880 --> 0:34:44.319 dappled in nudism, I believe. Um. In any case, he 0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:50.840 wasn't we all yeah, well when you know every time. Yeah, 0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:54.040 he he wrote some really really bad poetry which I 0:34:54.080 --> 0:34:59.359 had the pleasure of of reading. Um explained the polyamorous relationship. Uh, 0:34:59.440 --> 0:35:01.120 you know, I don't actually know that I can go 0:35:01.200 --> 0:35:03.200 too too much into death and that at the moment 0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:07.320 rabbit hole. No, I just don't remember all the details, 0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:09.520 remember that there there was a lot of there was 0:35:09.520 --> 0:35:11.799 a lot of consternation from his wife that he lived with. 0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:14.439 In my memory that you know, he he wasn't really 0:35:14.480 --> 0:35:17.839 good at at juggling everything as far as I remember. Um. 0:35:18.680 --> 0:35:20.640 But yeah, but the thing that I the thing that 0:35:20.680 --> 0:35:23.200 I loved was that he enters the story. This is 0:35:23.200 --> 0:35:25.319 why I could justify putting him in the book there. Yeah, 0:35:25.400 --> 0:35:28.120 when you're that he enters the story in this very 0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:31.239 kind of representative moment where he's you know, he works 0:35:31.280 --> 0:35:34.600 down in southern California running his lab, and he's sitting 0:35:34.640 --> 0:35:39.160 at home about he and his wife have cocktails poured 0:35:39.160 --> 0:35:41.319 and they're turning on the radio to listen to a 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:45.640 broadcast of a concert, and he's got this giant dude 0:35:45.640 --> 0:35:49.719 that I'm sorry, but that just doesn't happen anymore. No, No, 0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:51.719 it doesn't. I mean it kind of I feel like 0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:53.719 it's kind of happened this last this last year a 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:56.400 little bit. We're kind of all our grandparents sitting in 0:35:56.440 --> 0:35:59.600 our chairs side by side. You know what's on the 0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:03.359 list tonight? Hunt um. But yeah, that's that's the kind 0:36:03.360 --> 0:36:06.040 of the kind of a mood that they were setting that. 0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:09.520 It was a really mid century, you know, elegant living room. 0:36:09.560 --> 0:36:11.600 I've seen pictures of it and kind of this uh, 0:36:11.880 --> 0:36:14.840 you know, a gorgeous southern California home. And he has 0:36:15.000 --> 0:36:19.799 um been pissing off his wife by um installing a 0:36:19.840 --> 0:36:23.560 bunch of scientific instruments in his living room, um, right 0:36:23.560 --> 0:36:25.439 in the middle of the living room so that he can, 0:36:25.840 --> 0:36:28.360 you know, measure earthquakes and stuff. And she does not 0:36:28.840 --> 0:36:31.640 like this, although he in his telling she's she's grown 0:36:31.640 --> 0:36:33.600 accustomed to it and is fine with it now, but 0:36:33.680 --> 0:36:36.520 you kind of have to question that. And they're setting 0:36:36.520 --> 0:36:38.440 them down with their their concert, and all of a sudden, 0:36:38.480 --> 0:36:41.920 the needle starts starts jumping, measuring the great Alaska earthquake, 0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:45.160 you know, without out a couple thousand miles away, and 0:36:45.360 --> 0:36:48.799 uh he uh. He turns to his his his wife, 0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:51.080 and he says, oh, that's a that's a great earthquake, 0:36:51.200 --> 0:36:55.360 you know, and and she and she doesn't really she 0:36:55.400 --> 0:36:58.839 doesn't respond, you know, so because because he's talking over 0:36:58.880 --> 0:37:02.840 the concert. Um so, but I like that moment, I guess. 0:37:03.080 --> 0:37:05.000 And the reason why I felt justified to cram it 0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:07.240 into the book is because I tell that that little 0:37:07.239 --> 0:37:09.719 anecdote just as a kind of end note to a 0:37:09.840 --> 0:37:14.040 kind of panorama of all of the destruction and chaos 0:37:14.080 --> 0:37:17.360 that's happening in Alaska, and then reverberating out, you know, 0:37:17.440 --> 0:37:20.600 until it's getting smaller, you know, these actual the shaking 0:37:20.640 --> 0:37:23.440 is getting smaller and smaller, and people registering is getting 0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:25.279 smaller and smaller, until finally you come all the way 0:37:25.320 --> 0:37:27.680 down the coast, uh, and you've kind of just got 0:37:27.719 --> 0:37:30.600 this dweeb in his living room just kind of, you know, 0:37:31.080 --> 0:37:34.040 pausing between SIPs of his cocktail, saying, oh, look at that. 0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:39.920 You know, something's a shaking, you know, So that's somewhere exactly. 0:37:39.960 --> 0:37:42.520 It seemed to me to reveal something, um, you know, 0:37:42.640 --> 0:37:46.120 kind of profound about suffering. I guess something that happened 0:37:46.160 --> 0:37:51.960 during the concert, right, remember that concert? Because why did 0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:56.439 so few people die? Yeah? That's a really good because 0:37:56.440 --> 0:38:00.800 it seemed like you know, and reading i'm it plays 0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:05.160 out when you're reading it, it plays out. Yanni wouldn't 0:38:05.200 --> 0:38:07.680 like it because you don't really know what's gonna you know, 0:38:07.719 --> 0:38:12.480 what's gonna happen. The daughters will be irritated, but you're 0:38:12.520 --> 0:38:17.680 thinking that, uh, that out like thousands of dead people. Well, yeah, 0:38:17.719 --> 0:38:20.480 like the whole luxury neighborhood ends up on the beach. 0:38:21.160 --> 0:38:24.320 That is like like literally like someone cleared a table 0:38:24.480 --> 0:38:27.560 and said, all the houses down off the edge of 0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:31.600 the table. Yeah, yeah, it's um. I mean that's the 0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:34.000 key point for me was that it took days to 0:38:34.120 --> 0:38:37.600 realize that fewer people had died than anyone imagined. That 0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:40.000 to me was the real drama of this. This story 0:38:40.080 --> 0:38:44.360 was like calling their way back from this complete disorientation 0:38:44.600 --> 0:38:46.920 to just figure out the most basic information about what 0:38:47.080 --> 0:38:49.200 just had happened. Right, you know, how many of us 0:38:49.239 --> 0:38:52.239 are dead? That seems like a pretty fundamental thing to 0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:54.440 get your head around after something like this. But yeah, 0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:56.239 there's a couple of different reasons. I mean, first of all, 0:38:56.320 --> 0:38:59.640 the there there were you know, there was just just 0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:01.279 over hundred deaths of numbers kind of up in the 0:39:01.320 --> 0:39:04.200 air still, but UM, and a lot of these deaths 0:39:04.239 --> 0:39:07.920 were the majority of them were actually in um Native 0:39:07.920 --> 0:39:12.160 Alaskan villages that just had a tsunami from tsunamis resulting 0:39:12.160 --> 0:39:15.799 tsunamis UM. You know, the entire villages were just kind 0:39:15.800 --> 0:39:18.080 of a race by those waves. UM. And so you 0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:21.880 had UM you know, sadly that was where a lion's 0:39:21.880 --> 0:39:25.160 share of of the deaths were in Anchorage itself. The 0:39:25.239 --> 0:39:28.480 story is a lot more complicated because on the one hand, 0:39:28.520 --> 0:39:31.359 it's you know, it was Alaska's you know, greatest metropolis. 0:39:31.360 --> 0:39:33.759 It was also not a very densely populated place, right 0:39:33.800 --> 0:39:35.600 and there weren't a lot of tall buildings at all. 0:39:35.960 --> 0:39:39.000 There's a lot of you know, small, single family wooden structures, 0:39:39.000 --> 0:39:41.600 which which fared you know, not exactly well, but you 0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:45.600 didn't have complete you know, pancaking all over the place. UM. 0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:47.799 And then the other the other reason, which I found 0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:51.399 most fascinating was a lot of people survived because there 0:39:51.520 --> 0:39:54.960 was this great burst of energy um, all around the 0:39:55.000 --> 0:39:59.280 city right after the shaking stopped to go find people 0:39:59.560 --> 0:40:03.280 in the package. So, um, you know this search and rescue, 0:40:03.640 --> 0:40:05.560 you know, I mean to even call it, that makes 0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:09.080 it sound way more organized and methodical than it was. 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:13.040 At first. It was just this scramble to peel people out. 0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:16.279 You know, you had people just passer by outside the J. C. 0:40:16.400 --> 0:40:19.880 Penny Building working in teams bringing in tow trucks and 0:40:19.920 --> 0:40:23.080 other equipment, cutting torches to get people out of cars 0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:25.800 that had been buried in the rubble of the collapsing facade. 0:40:26.360 --> 0:40:28.480 So whereas in a lot you know, a lot of disasters, 0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:30.480 you know, a lot of the debts are people that 0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:33.480 you know, they're not killed immediately by the disaster itself, 0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:35.600 but you know they're they're killed by some you know, 0:40:35.600 --> 0:40:37.799 they're they're trapped or something like that. A lot of 0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:40.399 these people are being peeled out right away and taking 0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:43.080 to get medical care. Um. So it's it's a much 0:40:43.080 --> 0:40:45.000 more complicated story than that. But those are some of 0:40:45.040 --> 0:40:47.239 the reasons that I that I really latched onto as 0:40:47.280 --> 0:40:51.480 being kind of illustrated with what was happening in the city. 0:41:01.280 --> 0:41:04.040 You know, John, I don't know, it kind of surprised 0:41:04.120 --> 0:41:08.080 me too. I'm trying to think of out why I'm 0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:10.120 trying to say it surprised me. It surprised me a 0:41:10.120 --> 0:41:11.600 little bit because in a lot of ways the books 0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:17.880 seem to have this It had almost the um libertarian ethos, 0:41:19.160 --> 0:41:23.839 where it would be that all these um like structures 0:41:23.840 --> 0:41:27.520 we put together, you know, like like organizational things and 0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:32.839 official dumb and bureaucracy, right, so that we're all set 0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:36.040 when ship hits the fan. But in this case, you're 0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:38.880 going you almost make this kind of like, you know, 0:41:38.960 --> 0:41:43.200 it almost seems like you're enthusiastic about the fact that 0:41:43.200 --> 0:41:46.000 that stuff doesn't work, and what does work is just 0:41:46.120 --> 0:41:50.319 people like doing what needs to be done. And it 0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:52.759 kind of seems strange to see you. You know, this 0:41:52.840 --> 0:41:55.160 is like prepay when you wrote it was pre pandemic. 0:41:56.080 --> 0:41:58.640 You know, I wonder if you'd look at it differently 0:41:58.680 --> 0:42:03.160 now when you see that that you know, like how 0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:05.799 we've responded to the last year in terms of our 0:42:05.840 --> 0:42:10.560 reliance on bureaucracy and government and following the guidelines in 0:42:10.680 --> 0:42:14.080 this book being like, dude, guidelines don't work, man, at 0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:16.560 least here, And then you know, I mean, that's that's 0:42:16.600 --> 0:42:19.440 something that I've been I've been thinking about a lot, obviously, 0:42:19.480 --> 0:42:22.200 and and to be honest, it's not it's not as 0:42:22.239 --> 0:42:24.600 easy to resolve for me as it as it might seem. 0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:26.879 It kind of reminds me of So there's a there's 0:42:26.880 --> 0:42:30.200 a big portion of the book that's about sort of sociology, 0:42:30.440 --> 0:42:33.239 sociologist who studied disasters, and and there's a great book 0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:36.000 by Rebecca soln It called The Paradise Built in Hill. 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:37.480 I don't know if any of you guys have read that, 0:42:37.840 --> 0:42:41.200 but it's it's explicitly about that. It's just about this 0:42:41.239 --> 0:42:43.720 field of sociology. That's that's showing what you're talking about 0:42:43.760 --> 0:42:46.359 that you know, it's people banded together and do right. 0:42:46.560 --> 0:42:48.600 And I remember I know Rebecca and she she had 0:42:48.640 --> 0:42:51.000 started working on that book. She published a piece, uh, 0:42:51.080 --> 0:42:53.719 sort of about that premise in Harper's I think, and 0:42:53.760 --> 0:42:56.520 it came out the week of Hurricane Katrina. And I 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:59.640 remember talking with her then and and she's she's putting 0:42:59.640 --> 0:43:01.920 forward the thesis, you know, people are are good, they 0:43:02.000 --> 0:43:04.320 band together, and on the TV, you know you're seeing 0:43:04.400 --> 0:43:06.719 just you know, kind of chaos and full and I 0:43:06.760 --> 0:43:09.600 think she had the presence of mind to know that um, 0:43:09.640 --> 0:43:11.640 you know, she's looking at it in a on a 0:43:11.640 --> 0:43:13.520 different time scale, and that also a lot of that 0:43:13.560 --> 0:43:16.600 media stuff is uh is incorrect when it first comes out, 0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:19.120 and it took her years to piece together the story 0:43:19.160 --> 0:43:21.480 the kind of true reporting the show that that her 0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:23.840 initial insect is true. I don't know why I'm I'm 0:43:24.120 --> 0:43:25.920 going on about her, except for just I think she's 0:43:25.920 --> 0:43:28.520 an amazing writer. Uh. You know, my book owes a 0:43:28.560 --> 0:43:31.960 debt to her, to her book, But in any case, UM, yeah, 0:43:32.040 --> 0:43:34.719 I think you're right absolutely that what's happening in the 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:38.160 book is you have a lot of Cold war bureaucratic 0:43:38.239 --> 0:43:41.560 structures in Anchorage and elsewhere that are set up to 0:43:41.640 --> 0:43:44.360 handle disasters, but what they're really set up to handle 0:43:44.440 --> 0:43:47.120 is like nuclear war, and no one set up to 0:43:47.120 --> 0:43:50.920 handle nuclear war, you know. So, so you have UM 0:43:50.960 --> 0:43:55.560 in the place of these um kind of official agencies 0:43:55.920 --> 0:43:58.960 kind of unraveling or being slow to adapt to the situation, 0:43:59.320 --> 0:44:02.719 you have endo visual people UM, including Genie Chance, who's 0:44:02.719 --> 0:44:04.520 sort of the main character of the book, who are 0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:07.120 who are kind of rising up and meeting the problem 0:44:07.160 --> 0:44:08.920 in front of them. And then not only are they 0:44:08.960 --> 0:44:10.919 meeting the problem in front of them, but then they're 0:44:10.960 --> 0:44:14.200 banding together in forming kind of ad hoc organizations to 0:44:14.280 --> 0:44:16.440 solve even bigger problems. And it just keeps going like 0:44:16.480 --> 0:44:19.680 that all weekend. And I think that is absolutely true, 0:44:19.719 --> 0:44:24.640 and that's absolutely characteristic of what tends to happen in disasters. Um. 0:44:24.760 --> 0:44:28.200 You see that when people have studied the responses you know, 0:44:28.200 --> 0:44:30.319 in all kinds of different kinds of natural disasters all 0:44:30.360 --> 0:44:33.640 around the world. Um, what we saw this year, I 0:44:33.680 --> 0:44:36.880 think is, um, you know a lot of that, you know, 0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:38.959 and we can we can talk about that too, because um, 0:44:39.040 --> 0:44:41.239 I've actually been involved with a group like that, um 0:44:41.280 --> 0:44:43.799 where I live. But UM, but I think what you're 0:44:43.800 --> 0:44:47.719 referring to is we've we've also seen, uh, you know this, 0:44:47.960 --> 0:44:51.880 there's some elements of a disaster that only government can address. 0:44:52.080 --> 0:44:54.600 Right those people are gonna kick in. The ordinary people 0:44:54.640 --> 0:44:57.200 are gonna kick in right away and start digging someone 0:44:57.200 --> 0:45:00.280 out of rubble, or organizing search and rescue or getting 0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:02.799 food to people, things like that. But there's also things 0:45:02.840 --> 0:45:06.000 happening on a grand scale that only government is going 0:45:06.080 --> 0:45:08.239 to be able to solve. And because my books only 0:45:08.239 --> 0:45:10.799 dealing with those first three days, I'm not talking necessarily 0:45:10.800 --> 0:45:12.600 about a lot of those things. I'm not talking about 0:45:12.600 --> 0:45:18.000 rebuilding a city, making sure the water system is safe, um, 0:45:18.200 --> 0:45:20.760 things like that. And so I think the thing about 0:45:20.920 --> 0:45:22.560 I mean, we we kind of got to see it 0:45:23.120 --> 0:45:25.840 in real time at the beginning of the pandemic or 0:45:25.880 --> 0:45:28.319 even through the middle of the pandemic, where you had 0:45:28.640 --> 0:45:30.960 people doing as much as they could, you know, staying 0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:35.760 staying home, sewing masks, doing three D printing face shields, 0:45:35.800 --> 0:45:37.879 you know, all sorts of things. But when you have 0:45:37.920 --> 0:45:41.120 a government response that's just not kicking in on a 0:45:41.160 --> 0:45:43.319 problem of this scale. If those people are only going 0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:46.000 to get you so far. UM. So I could have 0:45:46.080 --> 0:45:49.320 told a lot more of the story of how the government, 0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:51.600 especially the military, being that there was, you know, this 0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:55.319 huge military presence in Alaska. Um, they had a lot 0:45:55.360 --> 0:46:00.000 to do with making things run smoothly after the quake. Uh. 0:46:00.000 --> 0:46:03.040 But to me, for those three days, the most interesting 0:46:03.080 --> 0:46:06.560 story to me, and and the most surprising story, was 0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:08.520 the story of these people who were in many cases 0:46:08.520 --> 0:46:12.560 surprising themselves and really managing to get ship done in 0:46:12.640 --> 0:46:15.520 ways that they wouldn't have been able to predict beforehand. 0:46:17.440 --> 0:46:19.759 Explain how did I slap that one way? Did I 0:46:22.040 --> 0:46:26.040 defend my thesis successfully. Yeah, I think I think that 0:46:26.120 --> 0:46:28.960 you you tackled it well. I do not view this 0:46:29.040 --> 0:46:33.960 as an anti government manifesto. It was good though, to 0:46:34.040 --> 0:46:36.560 see because you know, at the beginning of you can 0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:42.520 only you can only equate a pandemic and an earthquake, 0:46:42.600 --> 0:46:45.400 like the comparisons. You kind of run out of comparisons 0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:49.680 pretty quickly. But right early in the pandemic, I did 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:54.320 see a lot of folks, including some people who I like, Uh, 0:46:54.400 --> 0:46:57.640 their initial thing was I'm gonna get ready to start 0:46:57.760 --> 0:47:02.399 killing my neighbors when they come for my food. Right, Like, 0:47:02.600 --> 0:47:05.080 there's there's some folks that that's where they're That's just 0:47:05.160 --> 0:47:08.560 where they go. It's it's sad that that's where they go, 0:47:08.719 --> 0:47:10.560 but that's where they go. And other people are like, 0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:13.440 I wonder how I could help my neighbors, you know? Um, 0:47:13.719 --> 0:47:15.920 And you really see in the three Days that that 0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:20.920 you describe, you see overwhelmingly is what can I do 0:47:21.040 --> 0:47:24.080 to help my neighbors? Not um, how can I get 0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:27.399 ready to kill them all when they run out of water? Uh? 0:47:27.520 --> 0:47:32.839 But talk about how how how Genie Chance enters the thing? 0:47:32.960 --> 0:47:34.919 And like you know the books called This is Chance, 0:47:34.960 --> 0:47:37.440 which is named after which you wouldn't guess from looking 0:47:37.480 --> 0:47:41.400 at the cover necessarily, but named after a particular person 0:47:41.520 --> 0:47:45.319 who really emerges as this star player in this in 0:47:45.360 --> 0:47:49.840 this drama. Why did you choose not to introduce Genie 0:47:49.880 --> 0:47:52.319 Chance on the cover when when her name is so 0:47:52.440 --> 0:47:57.239 clearly on the cover? Children I like to I like 0:47:57.320 --> 0:48:01.480 to torment children who can't stand suspend and uh, I 0:48:01.560 --> 0:48:05.920 need to plug their ears when scary things happened in movies. Um, yeah, 0:48:05.960 --> 0:48:08.960 I mean Genie Chance. For me, discovering Genie Chance and 0:48:09.000 --> 0:48:13.520 discovering the earthquake happened simultaneously. That report that I mentioned, 0:48:14.160 --> 0:48:17.839 you know, just collecting individual people's accounts of those four 0:48:17.840 --> 0:48:21.000 and a half minutes, that was something Genie did. Um. So. 0:48:21.120 --> 0:48:25.120 Genie was a part time radio reporter, working mother and 0:48:25.160 --> 0:48:27.439 anchorage at the time, which was a pretty rare thing 0:48:27.560 --> 0:48:30.200 on on its own. Um And she was just, you know, 0:48:30.280 --> 0:48:36.680 completely tenacious person. And she ended up by sort of 0:48:36.680 --> 0:48:39.600 a quirk of luck, but also like her own persistence, 0:48:39.640 --> 0:48:43.719 winding up in the heart of everything, you know, immediately 0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:46.680 after the quake, right at the police station where information 0:48:46.760 --> 0:48:49.440 was starting to come in, the the official city response 0:48:49.480 --> 0:48:51.279 was starting starting to take shape, and she had this 0:48:51.360 --> 0:48:53.759 mobile radio unit in her car that she used to 0:48:53.800 --> 0:48:57.000 report UM as a kind of roving reporter around Anchorage normally, 0:48:57.360 --> 0:48:59.800 and so she was able to get on the radio 0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:03.000 in once the station was up and running and relay 0:49:03.040 --> 0:49:05.440 a lot of that information. And at first that was 0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:07.520 a very simple job, and over the course of these 0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:10.279 three days it becomes um a much more important job 0:49:10.280 --> 0:49:12.680 and a much more elaborate job where she just kind of, 0:49:12.840 --> 0:49:16.600 you know, stumbled into being a really integral part of 0:49:16.600 --> 0:49:20.240 of the whole community response and also like a voice 0:49:20.280 --> 0:49:22.440 that was guiding a lot of people in town through it. 0:49:22.480 --> 0:49:24.520 So even you know, saying like we need a diesel 0:49:24.560 --> 0:49:27.600 fuel over here, or we need a doctor and here, 0:49:27.640 --> 0:49:30.000 you know, that was her giving that information. And then 0:49:30.040 --> 0:49:32.880 also people who couldn't were separated from their family members, 0:49:33.080 --> 0:49:35.959 just you know, hours of just reciting people's names and saying, 0:49:35.960 --> 0:49:38.279 you know, your mother is looking for you. Uh, you know, 0:49:38.440 --> 0:49:40.440 give us, we'll come here, we'll get a message back, 0:49:40.480 --> 0:49:43.879 and relaying those those back and forth over the air. UM. 0:49:43.960 --> 0:49:46.920 But that report that I mentioned, uh, that was that 0:49:47.000 --> 0:49:50.080 was all her doing. That was after the quake, she 0:49:50.120 --> 0:49:52.080 went back and interviewed all these people to just kind 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:55.080 of collect in oral history like that. And I found 0:49:55.080 --> 0:49:57.279 that report and in the very beginning, there's a little 0:49:57.360 --> 0:49:59.840 author's note that says, you know, the author is a 0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:02.120 our time radio reporter who was on the air for 0:50:02.160 --> 0:50:05.440 fifty nine hours after the quake, and her family recorded 0:50:05.800 --> 0:50:08.719 a lot of those broadcasts, and uh, you know I 0:50:08.719 --> 0:50:12.360 saw that and and my my, you know, journalists spiky 0:50:12.360 --> 0:50:14.680 scent started tingling, and I just thought, I got to 0:50:14.719 --> 0:50:18.160 find these these tapes, um, which which I did. Ultimately 0:50:18.200 --> 0:50:21.120 I found found a lot of hours of broadcasts from 0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:23.480 the radio station Katie and I and that that was 0:50:23.560 --> 0:50:25.680 kind of the backbone of this book. It allowed me 0:50:25.760 --> 0:50:27.920 to to really tell it in a minute by minute 0:50:28.040 --> 0:50:32.759 kind of way. Uh. You could times have mentioned how 0:50:33.239 --> 0:50:39.200 the book focuses in a few days, but when towards 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:42.239 the end it doesn't, because I mean it's very much 0:50:42.280 --> 0:50:46.040 about like the day of the quake and the immediate aftermath. 0:50:46.239 --> 0:50:47.880 But it we don't need to go into this and 0:50:47.960 --> 0:50:51.160 to go high level of detail because people need to 0:50:51.160 --> 0:50:57.000 go read it and find out. But for her, um, 0:50:57.200 --> 0:51:00.960 it never ends, you know. I mean it's like there's 0:51:00.960 --> 0:51:03.840 these handful of people that that this becomes sort of 0:51:03.840 --> 0:51:07.160 the defining thing in their life and then and then 0:51:07.640 --> 0:51:13.880 shapes and and kind of in unhappy ways. Uh yeah, 0:51:13.920 --> 0:51:18.239 that being like this pinnacle moment you never eventually I 0:51:18.280 --> 0:51:22.000 guess you kind of stranded on the the pinnacle, you know. 0:51:22.160 --> 0:51:25.319 For her, Yeah, I don't know that I put it 0:51:25.360 --> 0:51:28.279 exactly that way. I mean I think that she, you know, 0:51:28.320 --> 0:51:30.400 when you think about what it would have been like 0:51:30.520 --> 0:51:34.359 to be like a working mother in nine four, I mean, 0:51:34.400 --> 0:51:37.440 she was dealing with a kind of um sexism that 0:51:37.520 --> 0:51:39.960 it's it's just almost funny to see it now, like 0:51:40.000 --> 0:51:41.920 you you feel like it's a satire, you know, the 0:51:41.920 --> 0:51:44.920 way people would talk to her. And so during the 0:51:45.280 --> 0:51:49.040 quake for her to just ascend to this position of 0:51:49.040 --> 0:51:53.640 of you know where she's just so obviously competent and 0:51:53.719 --> 0:51:56.960 getting stuff done and being so valuable to the community 0:51:57.000 --> 0:52:01.080 without question, I think that really, um it kind of 0:52:01.200 --> 0:52:05.759 freed her to to just accept her own you know, awesomeness. 0:52:05.800 --> 0:52:07.279 I guess, you know, like it was just sort of 0:52:07.280 --> 0:52:09.720 like the last the last thing she needed to feel 0:52:09.760 --> 0:52:12.319 like why am I wasting my time? You know with 0:52:12.360 --> 0:52:15.319 other people's expectations. So in that way, it was a 0:52:15.400 --> 0:52:17.279 kind of door that that opened for her, and she 0:52:17.360 --> 0:52:19.720 went on to have this career in the legislature and 0:52:19.719 --> 0:52:22.239 and did a lot of really um, you know, important 0:52:22.239 --> 0:52:24.560 work there. But yeah, there is there is a moment 0:52:24.560 --> 0:52:26.840 in the book where when you kind of just fast 0:52:26.880 --> 0:52:29.000 forward through the rest of her life and you do 0:52:29.120 --> 0:52:32.360 realize that that it, you know, it was a very sad, 0:52:32.680 --> 0:52:34.719 you know, last phase of her life for a variety 0:52:34.520 --> 0:52:37.000 of reasons. And that was something that I just really 0:52:37.000 --> 0:52:39.000 tried to keep and keep my eye on as I 0:52:39.040 --> 0:52:42.280 was going through the whole process of researching this book. 0:52:42.360 --> 0:52:45.720 Was it's a very weird thing to write about three 0:52:45.880 --> 0:52:49.839 days that happened fifty plus years ago, because you're your 0:52:49.840 --> 0:52:52.560 head so in the minute by minute drama of that time, 0:52:52.960 --> 0:52:54.680 and then you look up from that and you say, 0:52:54.760 --> 0:52:57.080 I wonder what happened to this guy? And nine times 0:52:57.120 --> 0:52:59.440 out of tend you hit an obituary, you know, and 0:52:59.480 --> 0:53:01.880 you realize that these three days were just a sliver 0:53:01.960 --> 0:53:05.640 of time in these people's lives, and uh, And that 0:53:05.719 --> 0:53:08.239 really shaped the whole feeling of the book for me, 0:53:08.480 --> 0:53:10.800 was to to think that there's this kind of intensity 0:53:10.840 --> 0:53:13.600 that kicks in in these moments, but a lot of 0:53:13.600 --> 0:53:16.440 the feelings that that come up in those times, and 0:53:16.480 --> 0:53:19.120 a lot of the possibilities that come up in those 0:53:19.160 --> 0:53:21.360 times are things that kind of haunt you or or 0:53:21.560 --> 0:53:23.319 carry you carry on for the rest of your life, 0:53:23.480 --> 0:53:25.000 so that you could have someone at the you know, 0:53:25.120 --> 0:53:28.080 top of their game, you know, like Genie, you know, 0:53:28.160 --> 0:53:30.520 in this moment, and then you you sort of you 0:53:30.560 --> 0:53:32.960 wanted to last. You want it to stay as of 0:53:32.960 --> 0:53:35.239 her life, and and it, you know, it keeps going 0:53:35.360 --> 0:53:37.319 higher for a while. But you know, eventually kind of 0:53:37.360 --> 0:53:39.960 all our stories and in the same way, um and 0:53:40.000 --> 0:53:42.160 somehow that just made the whole story of the quake 0:53:42.200 --> 0:53:44.480 more poignant to me. This this idea that your life 0:53:44.520 --> 0:53:47.759 can be disrupted, you know that violently at at any minute. Well, 0:53:47.760 --> 0:53:49.759 you know, in the end, it's kind of what we 0:53:49.840 --> 0:53:52.320 all kind of get get the earth, you know, stripped 0:53:52.320 --> 0:53:56.640 out from under us. I guess okay, tell folks, you 0:53:56.680 --> 0:53:59.640 know the title subtitles, Okay, can I get? Can I get? In? 0:53:59.680 --> 0:54:04.759 A one more questions? Didn't go? Man? John? What did 0:54:04.800 --> 0:54:06.840 it put you in any sort of like a like 0:54:06.880 --> 0:54:14.680 a different space to spend six years in three days? Yeah, yeah, 0:54:14.960 --> 0:54:16.840 it really did. I don't even really know how to 0:54:17.719 --> 0:54:20.880 how to talk about that. I mean, it was it 0:54:20.920 --> 0:54:23.240 was insane, Like it's just an insane thing to do 0:54:23.360 --> 0:54:26.160 in retrospect, you know, like like I remember one night 0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:28.440 somewhere in the middle of like we were having you know, 0:54:28.640 --> 0:54:30.759 having dinner with the family, and we're doing that. You know, 0:54:30.800 --> 0:54:32.520 who would you living or dead? Who would you like 0:54:32.560 --> 0:54:34.239 to have to dinner? You know, as Gennie Chance, you know, 0:54:34.440 --> 0:54:37.920 like question, you know, and you know it's like it's 0:54:37.920 --> 0:54:40.839 not only it's not only Genie Chance. It's like it's like, 0:54:40.880 --> 0:54:43.920 you know, the uh, the second in command at the 0:54:44.000 --> 0:54:46.160 National Guard. Because I really wanted to know, like where 0:54:46.200 --> 0:54:47.960 where were you standing when you said this? You know, 0:54:48.080 --> 0:54:51.960 like it's not they were not normal concerns, you know. Um, 0:54:52.000 --> 0:54:54.560 but yeah, I think that it's Uh, it definitely made 0:54:54.560 --> 0:54:57.040 me think about my own life differently in the sense 0:54:57.120 --> 0:55:00.680 that I think anytime you have the luxury of really 0:55:00.719 --> 0:55:05.680 trying to to zoom out and realized that you know, this, 0:55:05.680 --> 0:55:07.600 this moment that we're in is is just going to 0:55:07.680 --> 0:55:10.799 be this little narrow, um, you know, speck of a 0:55:10.880 --> 0:55:14.960 much longer line, Um, it really starts to mess with 0:55:14.960 --> 0:55:16.719 your head because I just don't think we normally have 0:55:16.800 --> 0:55:20.520 the tools to like integrate all that information. But definitely 0:55:20.520 --> 0:55:22.520 I feel like I mean, even the other day I 0:55:22.560 --> 0:55:24.680 was I was just like standing on my on my 0:55:24.880 --> 0:55:28.120 front lawn looking at this this maple tree, and I 0:55:28.200 --> 0:55:30.080 was thinking like, oh, yeah, it's starting to look a 0:55:30.120 --> 0:55:33.480 little unhealthy, like yeah, maybe maybe twenty years from now 0:55:33.480 --> 0:55:35.840 it'll it'll keel over. And and also this used to 0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:37.560 be a tree farm, so I wonder if this was 0:55:37.840 --> 0:55:39.520 you know, this came up after they cleared all the 0:55:39.520 --> 0:55:42.240 furs or what, you know. Just suddenly seeing these moments 0:55:42.280 --> 0:55:46.239 on a much huger time scale, Um, I think is 0:55:46.280 --> 0:55:50.719 something that I may never stop doing, just kind of instinctually, um, 0:55:50.800 --> 0:55:53.799 because I spent so much time kind of stuck in 0:55:54.360 --> 0:55:55.799 you know, stuck in the past. I don't know if 0:55:55.840 --> 0:55:58.200 that makes any sense. It's it's something I'm still trying 0:55:58.200 --> 0:56:01.799 to unpack for myself. Honestly, are you doing a new 0:56:01.840 --> 0:56:06.759 book now? I wish? Um. No. I mean, this year 0:56:07.080 --> 0:56:10.040 has been just completely strange professionally, so I've been kind 0:56:10.080 --> 0:56:12.560 of dabbling on a couple of things. But um, I'm 0:56:12.600 --> 0:56:14.120 one of those people that kind of just had to 0:56:15.280 --> 0:56:17.600 pump the brakes a little bit and deal with you know, 0:56:17.760 --> 0:56:21.680 kids and and keeping my my family life working. So 0:56:21.800 --> 0:56:24.000 um So, No, just in the since the new year, 0:56:24.080 --> 0:56:26.160 I've been I've been really starting to look for what 0:56:26.239 --> 0:56:27.600 my next project is going to be. But there were 0:56:27.600 --> 0:56:30.000 a few months there where I was like just a 0:56:30.040 --> 0:56:34.319 whole part of myself was was deactivated. You know, do 0:56:34.360 --> 0:56:37.800 you have to restrain yourself from turning to the kids 0:56:38.960 --> 0:56:42.759 on like all their events, right and being like, well, 0:56:43.680 --> 0:56:45.239 if you think about it, it's not that big of 0:56:45.239 --> 0:56:51.799 a deal. Yeah, yeah, I think I think I do. 0:56:51.880 --> 0:56:53.560 I mean I have to do that to myself too. 0:56:53.600 --> 0:56:59.200 But yeah, around the time, right right after I finished 0:56:59.200 --> 0:57:02.520 this book, I did um before it had come out, 0:57:02.560 --> 0:57:04.200 but after I was done with it, I did a 0:57:04.239 --> 0:57:08.600 story about the um the campfire in northern California in 0:57:08.680 --> 0:57:11.800 two thousand nineteen. Um So, I did a big magazine 0:57:11.800 --> 0:57:15.040 story about that. And that was another similar situation where 0:57:15.120 --> 0:57:17.720 I basically just told the story of like six hours 0:57:17.920 --> 0:57:20.880 and was you know, had videos of multiple angles of 0:57:20.880 --> 0:57:23.880 different things and was just you know, just like even 0:57:23.920 --> 0:57:26.040 more compressed than three days of an earthquake, was the 0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:29.280 six hour you know, evacuation of this one this one car. 0:57:30.120 --> 0:57:33.680 And I definitely started like looking around at you know, 0:57:33.720 --> 0:57:36.160 the trees on my property and noticing which ones are 0:57:36.160 --> 0:57:38.080 gonna fall in the driveway and all that stuff. And 0:57:38.120 --> 0:57:40.560 I made the mistake of kind of like talking about 0:57:40.600 --> 0:57:42.480 that a little too much with my daughters. And I 0:57:42.520 --> 0:57:45.160 think it's you know, I really it was not good parenting, 0:57:45.200 --> 0:57:46.840 you know. I sort of loaded them up with a 0:57:47.480 --> 0:57:50.000 kind of awareness of peril that I don't think was 0:57:50.000 --> 0:57:54.040 was recommended. Um, But yeah, you gotta you gotta put 0:57:54.120 --> 0:57:56.880 up some walls sometimes, and I'm not necessarily very good 0:57:56.920 --> 0:58:01.400 at it. I made the mistake one time, um of 0:58:01.520 --> 0:58:03.520 explaining to my kids how the sun will burn out, 0:58:04.360 --> 0:58:06.880 you know. And I was telling them that the Earth 0:58:07.000 --> 0:58:10.240 kind of in a midlife crisis, like you know, for 0:58:10.600 --> 0:58:13.200 a billion year old planet, and the sun is gonna 0:58:13.200 --> 0:58:16.520 peter her out and maybe about that long. And they 0:58:16.600 --> 0:58:19.520 just can't comprehend the time. So in their mind is 0:58:19.520 --> 0:58:25.440 still like any moment are they look at? I told, well, 0:58:25.480 --> 0:58:27.720 you won't know until eight minutes after it happened, So 0:58:28.240 --> 0:58:30.560 but no, they feel like at any moment is just 0:58:30.600 --> 0:58:34.800 gonna go blue. Yah. Well, I remember, I'm gonna blame 0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:37.160 you a little bit, Steve, because I remember I think 0:58:37.200 --> 0:58:39.520 maybe I heard you on a interviewed. I think it 0:58:39.520 --> 0:58:41.080 was an I don't think it was a conversation we 0:58:41.080 --> 0:58:44.000 were having where you were talking about your son and 0:58:44.080 --> 0:58:47.720 just loving your truck and knowing that everything that you 0:58:47.760 --> 0:58:51.200 need to survive is in your truck and uh and 0:58:51.400 --> 0:58:54.600 uh and I feel like that's what That's what I 0:58:54.640 --> 0:58:56.440 was aiming for, you know, I was aiming for that 0:58:56.560 --> 0:58:58.400 kind of like we got this kind of vibe that 0:58:59.120 --> 0:59:01.040 I don't think I carry it off, and I didn't 0:59:01.040 --> 0:59:04.520 carry it off the same way. I gotta work on 0:59:04.640 --> 0:59:07.120 my tone or something. You know. What's messing with me 0:59:07.400 --> 0:59:13.240 on this is I A huge part of me is like, 0:59:14.320 --> 0:59:18.680 don't be in a city center, don't be in a 0:59:19.040 --> 0:59:22.160 in a place where the infrastructure is so built up 0:59:22.800 --> 0:59:26.680 when these disasters occur. And it's it's really boning me 0:59:26.720 --> 0:59:34.160 out that the uh, you know, the superstructure less native 0:59:34.240 --> 0:59:36.600 villages on the coastline were the ones that had the 0:59:36.640 --> 0:59:40.840 highest mortality rates. That's it was just like not it 0:59:40.960 --> 0:59:43.840 was lack of not the narrative you want to hear, 0:59:43.920 --> 0:59:46.600 it's not it's not yeah, well there, yeah, I mean 0:59:46.640 --> 0:59:48.800 there is a school of thought that the you know, 0:59:49.000 --> 0:59:52.600 if you stop thinking of people as problems during disasters 0:59:52.720 --> 0:59:55.560 right as as chaos that needs to be controlled or avoided, 0:59:55.600 --> 0:59:58.440 and you start seeing them as parts of the solution, 0:59:59.000 --> 1:00:01.600 then that suggests you want to be around as many 1:00:01.640 --> 1:00:04.240 people as possible, right because mutual aid and all that stuff, 1:00:04.240 --> 1:00:06.920 it's just you've got more to work with and uh 1:00:07.000 --> 1:00:08.880 and then again, you know, so this is I live 1:00:08.960 --> 1:00:11.000 on Bambridge Island, which is next to Seattle, so it's 1:00:11.040 --> 1:00:13.720 a I think it's twenty seven thousand people community, you know, 1:00:14.280 --> 1:00:17.240 and I've been, um, I've been really blown away by 1:00:17.320 --> 1:00:20.000 a lot of the things that volunteers in this community 1:00:20.000 --> 1:00:21.560 have been able to do during the pandemics. I've been 1:00:21.560 --> 1:00:24.280 working volunteering at the vaccination clinic they're running. They just 1:00:24.320 --> 1:00:27.440 did their ten thousand DOCE yesterday, which is insane for 1:00:27.480 --> 1:00:29.280 a community this size, and they're doing, you know, people 1:00:29.320 --> 1:00:31.400 from all over this part of the state. And I 1:00:31.440 --> 1:00:33.600 think that maybe there's also a sweet spot where you 1:00:33.640 --> 1:00:36.920 have a community where you know, it's small enough that 1:00:36.960 --> 1:00:38.880 people feel a part of it and feel like the 1:00:38.920 --> 1:00:41.200 problems are manageable and that they can step up and 1:00:41.240 --> 1:00:43.600 actually make a difference with that, but it's not quite 1:00:43.600 --> 1:00:46.240 too small where you know, you don't have that kind 1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:50.320 of critical mass of of human energy to get things done. 1:00:50.760 --> 1:00:52.560 But yeah, I agree, I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't 1:00:52.600 --> 1:00:54.720 that people in those villages weren't weren't taking care of 1:00:54.760 --> 1:00:56.480 each other. They were. I mean, they were really heroic 1:00:56.520 --> 1:00:59.080 in terms of, you know, trying to get everyone, you know, 1:00:59.080 --> 1:01:02.320 clambering up these hill sides, keeping kids warm overnight, things 1:01:02.360 --> 1:01:04.920 like that. But they were just up against that was 1:01:04.960 --> 1:01:07.400 more geography, I think than sociology. They were just up 1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:10.160 against a giant wave that was that was coming on 1:01:10.200 --> 1:01:13.040 their on their coastline. So you can I'm I'm trying 1:01:13.200 --> 1:01:16.000 trying to reassure you. Go, you're doing a good job. 1:01:16.280 --> 1:01:19.240 You're doing a good job. Okay, I'm practicing for my kids, 1:01:21.240 --> 1:01:23.080 all right, John hit us with all the all the 1:01:23.120 --> 1:01:27.040 detailed information, all right. The book is called This Is Chance, 1:01:27.440 --> 1:01:29.880 The Shaking of an All American City and a voice 1:01:29.880 --> 1:01:32.560 that held it together. And it just came out in 1:01:32.600 --> 1:01:36.920 paperback from find people at Random House Books and you 1:01:36.960 --> 1:01:43.160 can buy it with your money. Um was a good pitch. 1:01:43.600 --> 1:01:45.640 Tell everybody where. I mean, you can find it anywhere 1:01:46.440 --> 1:01:47.840 you can find I want to I want to see 1:01:47.840 --> 1:01:49.880 if I want to see how you walk this delicate line. 1:01:50.080 --> 1:01:53.040 Where should people find the book, John You can buy 1:01:53.040 --> 1:01:57.200 it from from Eagle Harvard Book Company on Bambridge Island, Washington. 1:01:57.400 --> 1:02:00.600 Go on there, go on their website and tell Johnson 1:02:01.280 --> 1:02:03.160 that was very that was that was very diplomatic, and 1:02:03.240 --> 1:02:07.280 anywhere else books are sold. Yeah, all right, man, Uh, 1:02:07.400 --> 1:02:08.760 we'll talk to you in six years when you got 1:02:08.800 --> 1:02:15.600 another one. Thank you. Appreciate that. You gotta find something 1:02:15.640 --> 1:02:17.440 that happened in one day, because then maybe he'll take 1:02:17.440 --> 1:02:19.640 you just two years to do it. Yeah, or like 1:02:19.680 --> 1:02:21.680 a couple of minutes. Maybe I'll just I'll do a 1:02:21.680 --> 1:02:24.520 book about this podcast. I'll just retrace, I'll interview, I'll 1:02:24.560 --> 1:02:26.800 find out what was your interior monologue is going on 1:02:26.840 --> 1:02:29.280 as we as we supposed all look forward to reading. 1:02:29.440 --> 1:02:31.720 Thanks man, Uh, come back anytime you got something you 1:02:31.720 --> 1:02:34.640 gotta plug you. If it's just a magazine article, cool, 1:02:34.720 --> 1:02:37.320 I'll do that. Thank you very much to talk to y'all. 1:02:39.360 --> 1:02:41.040 Cal Are you hip to the whole deal about how 1:02:41.080 --> 1:02:44.920 you look like the guy from ram Jam? Nope, you're 1:02:44.960 --> 1:02:47.800 not hip to that. No, no one showed you this. 1:02:48.280 --> 1:02:51.840 I mean, who's looked into ram Jam deeper than the 1:02:51.920 --> 1:02:54.640 song Black? Betty right. Well, that's that's how we know 1:02:54.680 --> 1:02:57.720 about it. You haven't seen this, cran, do you mind? 1:02:58.880 --> 1:03:02.600 You don't know about this? Holy shit, that guy looks 1:03:02.640 --> 1:03:07.640 like you, but you don't look this like poo. This 1:03:07.920 --> 1:03:13.880 is no that brought up. We actually found Callahan. Callahan 1:03:14.240 --> 1:03:19.920 is a collaborator in lyricist for The Grateful Dead named 1:03:20.040 --> 1:03:25.200 Robert Hunter, who weirdly died at seventy eight. Even though 1:03:25.280 --> 1:03:31.080 you're sitting here right now, if you show that is cal, 1:03:34.120 --> 1:03:43.040 it's unbelievable, dude, can you can you cal? Can you 1:03:43.120 --> 1:03:46.520 fold your hands and rest your head? I have advice 1:03:46.640 --> 1:03:51.520 for men. This is my advice for men in photographs. 1:03:52.040 --> 1:03:55.720 Keep your hands away from your face. But for me, 1:03:55.760 --> 1:03:58.000 if you don't mind, can you rest your chin on 1:03:58.120 --> 1:04:04.600 your hands? Okay? Right here, right here? Were we need 1:04:04.600 --> 1:04:07.160 to play? Like? Yeah? Where can we putting on the 1:04:07.160 --> 1:04:09.480 other direction? Can get other direction for me real quick? 1:04:09.480 --> 1:04:12.840 And then look at me, look at me? No, no, 1:04:12.880 --> 1:04:19.440 you gotta have your yeah hold here for the for 1:04:19.480 --> 1:04:22.840 the audience out there. We are looking at a front 1:04:25.280 --> 1:04:30.440 from if you go to Rolling Stones magazine, I think 1:04:30.440 --> 1:04:41.160 it's Rolling Stone, Rolling Stones, sorry, Rolling Stones, Rolling Stones magazine. 1:04:41.320 --> 1:04:46.040 And I turned up the picture. It's a Robert Hunter, 1:04:46.160 --> 1:04:50.920 grateful dead collaborator and lyricist. A at we ain't getting 1:04:51.000 --> 1:04:57.480 richer because we can't get a picture that it's unbelievable anyhow, 1:04:57.960 --> 1:05:04.800 what gets me to thinking about wolves? Yanni? Janni's got 1:05:06.160 --> 1:05:08.120 Does this qualify as a book? Can we do this 1:05:08.640 --> 1:05:12.000 qualify as a book report? We play a book report? Jingle? Yeah? 1:05:12.000 --> 1:05:16.400 What the hell? Yeah? But first before my book report, 1:05:16.480 --> 1:05:19.640 you got to introduce our guests. That's joined us. Now, 1:05:19.920 --> 1:05:21.400 that's real port and Joann, you do it that all 1:05:21.400 --> 1:05:24.720 the time. Go ahead, Johnny, No, I asked you to 1:05:24.800 --> 1:05:28.920 do it. Oh, bro do you do it? Wow? That 1:05:29.080 --> 1:05:33.080 just went to hell real quick because because because Brody, 1:05:33.120 --> 1:05:35.720 you're mainly you're mainly friends with our guests. Yeah, Kell 1:05:35.880 --> 1:05:39.680 knows him to. Our mystery guest is gas Bar Para 1:05:39.760 --> 1:05:45.160 Cone joining us in Colorado, gas Bar, introduce yourself. Thanks, guys, Yeah, 1:05:45.200 --> 1:05:48.600 I guess our paracone. Uh appreciate the opportunity to join 1:05:48.680 --> 1:05:51.480 you guys. Have been in the hunting team and angling 1:05:51.520 --> 1:05:54.880 space for most of my professional career and UH happy 1:05:54.920 --> 1:05:57.840 to join the conversation today and your your neck deep 1:05:57.840 --> 1:06:02.640 and wildlife politics for reasons passing all understanding. Yeah, I 1:06:03.160 --> 1:06:05.760 worked for a group called Freestone Strategies, and we're a 1:06:05.760 --> 1:06:08.960 full spectrum public affairs firm and a large portion of 1:06:09.000 --> 1:06:12.439 my portfolio is involving, uh, you know, the greater realm 1:06:12.480 --> 1:06:16.720 of wildlife politics. Yeah, alright. I think it's important to 1:06:17.000 --> 1:06:23.840 note also that you you formerly served on Colorado's Wildlife Commission. Yeah. 1:06:23.880 --> 1:06:27.560 I was. Actually I started my tenure when it was 1:06:27.640 --> 1:06:31.560 the former Division of Wildlife. Obviously, Parks and Wildlife merged 1:06:31.640 --> 1:06:34.080 under the Hick and Loop administration, and I continued to 1:06:34.120 --> 1:06:37.680 serve under the newly formed Colorado Parks and Wildlife for 1:06:37.720 --> 1:06:42.200 four years after that. So, um my, my work continued 1:06:42.280 --> 1:06:44.680 kind of in that space when I became the legislative 1:06:44.720 --> 1:06:48.520 director for the Department of Natural Resources under Governor Hick 1:06:48.520 --> 1:06:52.240 and Loopers. So uh like, like you indicated, I've been 1:06:52.280 --> 1:06:54.440 necked deep in this stuff for the better part of 1:06:54.440 --> 1:06:59.280 a decade here in Colorado. Good you like that? That 1:06:59.440 --> 1:07:01.560 was one of Okay, now ya, he's gonna do his 1:07:01.880 --> 1:07:17.440 Yanni's book report book report. Who um, who's verbiage? Who's verbiage? 1:07:17.480 --> 1:07:25.560 Crin is is Escaped about a wolf that escaped the island. 1:07:27.200 --> 1:07:31.720 The articles huh, go ahead, Yanni real curious about that 1:07:31.720 --> 1:07:36.280 that word. Yeah, this is Canadian broadcasting. They use the 1:07:36.320 --> 1:07:40.800 word escape. It's interesting. Well anyways, Yeah, there was a 1:07:41.000 --> 1:07:45.240 radio colored female wolf on i'le Royale that she was 1:07:45.320 --> 1:07:51.840 brought there from Minnesota. And uh, if everybody remembers, I 1:07:51.880 --> 1:07:54.280 can't go into too much details. I'm not gonna remember properly, 1:07:54.320 --> 1:07:56.560 but I believe there was like too many moves on 1:07:56.560 --> 1:07:59.640 i'le Royale and they brought in some wolves to take 1:07:59.680 --> 1:08:02.520 care of the wolf problem or the moose problem and 1:08:02.560 --> 1:08:04.600 so on and so forth. I'm guessing this is probably 1:08:04.640 --> 1:08:06.880 part of that. Yeah, hey, do you when you because 1:08:06.920 --> 1:08:08.520 you grew up in Michigan Unity, did you grow up 1:08:08.560 --> 1:08:11.520 saying Isle Royale or we do? We would always call 1:08:11.560 --> 1:08:17.479 it Isle Royal, Isle Royal, probably Royale, I guess after 1:08:18.520 --> 1:08:21.439 maybe I maybe never said it until I was thirty 1:08:21.479 --> 1:08:25.280 years old and had long been gone from Michigan. Yeah, 1:08:25.880 --> 1:08:27.080 you know that that you don't want to get too 1:08:27.160 --> 1:08:29.479 much detail. But like a long time ago, that island 1:08:29.479 --> 1:08:33.040 which is out Lake Superior but sits between Michigan Peninsula Canada. 1:08:33.680 --> 1:08:38.880 It was like a Lynx Caribou eco system. And then 1:08:39.040 --> 1:08:41.280 because it freezes now and then new stuff shows up 1:08:41.280 --> 1:08:45.240 and leaves, and moose got out there. There's like some 1:08:45.280 --> 1:08:48.040 speculation that I don't think people who know there's some 1:08:48.040 --> 1:08:50.280 some people think he says it freezes. He means the 1:08:50.360 --> 1:08:54.160 lake freezes, sorry, which is how a wildlife got out 1:08:54.240 --> 1:08:57.880 to the island and occasionally leaves the island. Yeah, so 1:08:57.920 --> 1:08:59.599 I had which kind of hard to believe that there's 1:08:59.640 --> 1:09:01.240 like a boo out there at one point in time, 1:09:01.360 --> 1:09:04.479 like not like a long I mean, in modern times, 1:09:04.479 --> 1:09:09.120 there was caribou um and then everybody, you know, everybody's 1:09:09.120 --> 1:09:12.559 always dying off, and someone new walks out there, and 1:09:12.560 --> 1:09:18.680 then most recently became like tons of moose um. They 1:09:18.680 --> 1:09:20.680 don't want anybody to hunt out there, which and so 1:09:20.720 --> 1:09:23.160 they're trying to control That's actually a whole other story 1:09:23.160 --> 1:09:25.519 we're gonna get into at some point here. Uh. And 1:09:25.520 --> 1:09:28.000 we've talked about a little bit trying to like open 1:09:28.120 --> 1:09:30.639 up the pressure of the park Service to allow hunting 1:09:30.640 --> 1:09:34.000 to bring the moose numbers back down to a more 1:09:34.040 --> 1:09:35.800 manageable thing. But right now, what they're trying to do 1:09:35.840 --> 1:09:37.479 is truck wolves out there. And you think that the 1:09:37.520 --> 1:09:41.479 wolf would be the happiest wolf on the planet. Going 1:09:41.520 --> 1:09:43.920 back to your escape thing, I think it's it's the 1:09:43.960 --> 1:09:48.639 notion that it was collared, captured, brought there. So the 1:09:48.680 --> 1:09:51.559 idea is that like, that's where it's supposed to be 1:09:51.560 --> 1:09:57.599 because it was biologists intentions to remain and then it escaped. 1:09:58.200 --> 1:10:02.920 Different sort of feeling of escape because it was put 1:10:02.920 --> 1:10:05.880 on an island surrounded by, you know, hundreds of miles 1:10:05.880 --> 1:10:09.000 of water, and you would think that there'd be no 1:10:09.040 --> 1:10:11.280 way that this wolf would ever leave that island. But 1:10:12.040 --> 1:10:16.120 in twenty nineteen came the Polar Vortex, which when I 1:10:16.120 --> 1:10:18.559 read this, it got me thinking, how come the crazy 1:10:18.600 --> 1:10:22.479 storm that we had like a month ago that killed 1:10:22.560 --> 1:10:26.000 probably thousands of birds in Arkansas and south and all 1:10:26.120 --> 1:10:28.960 kinds of crazy animals in Texas, it never got a 1:10:28.960 --> 1:10:33.680 big crazy name like the Polar Vortex. M Yeah, that's 1:10:33.680 --> 1:10:35.840 a good point. Yeah, you guys that didn't that didn't crossed. 1:10:36.439 --> 1:10:42.320 I think they should have dubbed the Great chill Off. 1:10:42.400 --> 1:10:47.320 You have something or another. So she leaves uh Ile 1:10:47.439 --> 1:10:51.720 Royale or Royal, depending on what part of Michigan you're from, 1:10:51.760 --> 1:10:54.800 and travels all around, crosses the U. S. Canada border 1:10:54.840 --> 1:10:58.120 a few times. All in all, travels thousands of kilometers 1:10:59.160 --> 1:11:03.960 until at some point her radio collar dies and from 1:11:04.000 --> 1:11:06.280 what the people that were watching her can tell you 1:11:06.320 --> 1:11:10.800 that she kept on cruising around and uh, last time 1:11:10.840 --> 1:11:14.559 they had her was near Thunder Bay, which is like 1:11:14.760 --> 1:11:19.479 north west part of Lake superior Um. So yeah, a 1:11:19.520 --> 1:11:24.960 lot lots of traveling. Pretty kind because she went back 1:11:24.960 --> 1:11:28.240 home more or less. But then it was like something 1:11:28.320 --> 1:11:33.080 got the wires got crossed. Man, it just became a wanderer, right, 1:11:33.240 --> 1:11:35.920 but as this next story will show you, they like 1:11:36.040 --> 1:11:40.080 to wander this. Uh, next stories about two year old 1:11:40.280 --> 1:11:44.440 wolf that was collared in bamf and uh he traveled 1:11:44.560 --> 1:11:50.559 all the way from uh Alberta to Montana in five days, 1:11:50.800 --> 1:11:56.680 three hundred miles. Yeah, pretty amazing. It's like you're not 1:11:56.720 --> 1:11:59.160 even stopping to eat, man, or like if you're eating, 1:11:59.160 --> 1:12:03.560 you're eating on the oh yes, scavenging. I'd imagine. I 1:12:03.600 --> 1:12:06.439 don't imagine he like followed it, heard it. I don't know. 1:12:06.479 --> 1:12:08.160 Maybe you run into a pack of deer and get 1:12:08.200 --> 1:12:10.639 lucky and be cool to see his line of travel, 1:12:10.760 --> 1:12:13.760 Like was he just straight line in it for Montana 1:12:13.920 --> 1:12:16.320 or you know, yeah, because I mean that whole like 1:12:16.400 --> 1:12:21.799 Cootney Country is not flat right country. It's mountainous, heavily timbered. 1:12:22.520 --> 1:12:29.519 Uh and uh some big water in there too, three miles. Yeah, 1:12:29.560 --> 1:12:32.519 the hunt, the wolf was killed by a hunter legally 1:12:32.560 --> 1:12:35.680 here in Montana, and uh, that got a lot of 1:12:35.680 --> 1:12:41.240 people's attention. But what a chief scientists for a nonprofit 1:12:41.280 --> 1:12:44.880 called Yellowstone to Yukon says, what you should focus on 1:12:45.000 --> 1:12:48.679 is how cool it is that that wolf was able 1:12:48.720 --> 1:12:53.040 to do that. And then it shows this amazing like 1:12:53.439 --> 1:12:57.639 corridor and connectivity for wildlife that it can still happen. 1:12:58.080 --> 1:13:00.639 And if a wolf can do that, then ley bears 1:13:01.000 --> 1:13:04.559 can connect between uh, you know, the wilderness of Canada 1:13:04.680 --> 1:13:08.040 and the Yellowstone ecosystem as well, which is really neat 1:13:08.720 --> 1:13:10.479 and it's a hard thing to figure out unless you 1:13:10.520 --> 1:13:13.600 have a dead wolf in this circumstances. That's the thing 1:13:13.640 --> 1:13:17.360 I always think about this is how many animals are 1:13:17.400 --> 1:13:19.200 actually running around with the collar. Like when we were 1:13:19.240 --> 1:13:21.320 caribou hunting this year and I took my boy cariboo hunt, 1:13:21.439 --> 1:13:25.320 we saw hundreds of caribou go by. Okay, I saw 1:13:25.479 --> 1:13:28.920 one with a collar. And that's an intensely studied herd 1:13:29.080 --> 1:13:31.080 where they it's that they have a ton of collars 1:13:31.080 --> 1:13:33.439 and now have people that in the winter full time 1:13:33.439 --> 1:13:35.920 track them. So you watch hundreds of things and one 1:13:35.960 --> 1:13:38.080 goes by the collar in an area where it's like 1:13:38.080 --> 1:13:43.840 they're doing a collaring study. Um, how many things go 1:13:43.920 --> 1:13:46.720 unnoticed because no one has a collar on. But then 1:13:46.760 --> 1:13:48.960 every week there's some crazy story about something wearing a 1:13:49.000 --> 1:13:52.640 collar doing well, you know, like the same journey. So 1:13:52.680 --> 1:13:55.240 all the all the unsung. There's a lot of unsung 1:13:55.320 --> 1:13:58.000 heroes out there. Man, what's going on we don't know about. 1:13:59.360 --> 1:14:01.599 But there's that aree tutors that theory that the collar 1:14:01.720 --> 1:14:05.599 scrambles their brain exactly. There's this lady in Wyoming, her 1:14:05.680 --> 1:14:11.559 dog brought outside of Wyoming, her her dog brought her 1:14:12.560 --> 1:14:16.120 a recently deceased blackfooted ferret. Right, this is like the 1:14:16.160 --> 1:14:20.360 rediscovery of the of living black footed fair That's that's that, 1:14:20.560 --> 1:14:22.640 I mean a while ago. Oh yeah, this this was 1:14:22.680 --> 1:14:27.400 a while ago. But it's like that discovery served a 1:14:27.479 --> 1:14:32.200 huge purpose that just kind of came back to light recently. Um, 1:14:32.360 --> 1:14:36.479 and it it was because of a dead faret that 1:14:36.520 --> 1:14:39.920 a dog picked up problem. It's like, it's just funny 1:14:39.960 --> 1:14:43.120 how things work. You gotta start with something dad Sometimes Yeah, 1:14:43.200 --> 1:14:45.840 and they cannot and that's like the problem. That's like 1:14:45.920 --> 1:14:53.200 the real Bigfoot problem, right, no dead ones. We got 1:14:53.240 --> 1:14:56.120 a collar one, then we'll know. You put a collar 1:14:56.200 --> 1:14:57.800 on one of those suns of bitches, all of sudd 1:14:57.800 --> 1:15:00.280 he's gonna wind up. You know, You're gonna call him 1:15:00.400 --> 1:15:02.880 up wherever, like in Washington where they all live, and 1:15:02.920 --> 1:15:05.240 he's gonna wind up dead on a road in Connecticut 1:15:06.000 --> 1:15:08.000 with that breaking collar around his neck the back of 1:15:08.040 --> 1:15:10.840 a van. He'll just be like, I don't know, dude, 1:15:11.120 --> 1:15:13.400 they put that collar around me. That has went for it. 1:15:13.560 --> 1:15:18.200 They started walking. But wolves moving and us moving wolves 1:15:18.240 --> 1:15:21.679 around is why we've got gas bar on. Jeez, that's good, Brodie, 1:15:22.040 --> 1:15:26.840 see that? Yannie, Oh, Yanni. Um, here's a question for 1:15:26.920 --> 1:15:31.040 you about your book report. I've always been familiar with 1:15:31.080 --> 1:15:34.200 the group the Yellowstone to Yukon or is it Yukon 1:15:34.240 --> 1:15:38.480 to Yellowstone Yellowstone Yukon, Which is this, you know, maintaining 1:15:38.520 --> 1:15:42.400 this travel trying to imagine that you're maintaining a wildlife 1:15:42.400 --> 1:15:46.599 travel corridor. They would connect the greater Yellowstone ecosystem with 1:15:47.040 --> 1:15:50.920 the you know, the Canadian wilderness and then the vast 1:15:51.040 --> 1:15:56.160 boreal forest. Uh. But the wolf didn't make it to Yellowstone, 1:15:56.640 --> 1:15:59.479 And isn't a big problem with the Yellowstone to Yukon 1:15:59.640 --> 1:16:04.640 core or how do you connect sort of the glacier ecosystem, 1:16:04.680 --> 1:16:11.960 like the connectivity between the Glacier Flathead ecosystem, Northern Continental 1:16:11.960 --> 1:16:15.800 Divide ecosystem and Yellowstone. Like, now, if some guy had 1:16:15.840 --> 1:16:18.000 shot him down by Yellowstone, then I think he'd be like, oh, 1:16:18.000 --> 1:16:22.719 the corridor works. But he had it was hundreds of miles. 1:16:24.080 --> 1:16:27.320 He didn't make it to Yellowstone. He made it like halfway. 1:16:27.320 --> 1:16:30.479 It's probably at least three dred miles to go, you know. Yeah, 1:16:30.479 --> 1:16:34.839 he still had to cross I ninety, which is proving 1:16:34.920 --> 1:16:40.680 not as a difficult right, Like, yeah, it's a barrier. Um, 1:16:40.840 --> 1:16:44.400 A couple of wildlife overpasses on would would do some 1:16:44.479 --> 1:16:49.200 serious wonders. But you know that wolf sniffing distance from 1:16:49.560 --> 1:16:54.600 running all the way down the bitarets um, and you know, 1:16:54.720 --> 1:16:59.200 not having too much of a gap between a cross 1:16:59.200 --> 1:17:03.000 and I fifteen into the y E can see it. Yeah, 1:17:03.280 --> 1:17:07.960 then the wolves made across Interstate eighty from Wyoming into Colorado. Yeh, 1:17:08.000 --> 1:17:12.479 they did the impossible already. Yeah, alright, Brody Jimny bears 1:17:12.479 --> 1:17:15.599 have done that too, right, let's not go there yet. 1:17:15.680 --> 1:17:19.200 You have run run the bitter yeah down, no, no, no, 1:17:19.240 --> 1:17:22.960 I have gone from southern Wyoming into Colorado. Oh by 1:17:23.160 --> 1:17:30.920 government helicopter. Well and catapult, Oh yeah, government catapult that 1:17:30.960 --> 1:17:33.320 we don't know making fun, but we do know about 1:17:33.360 --> 1:17:46.679 the wolf. Okay, Brody and Yanni run this whole program here. 1:17:47.439 --> 1:17:52.280 Um so last year, gas Bar, when did that go through? 1:17:52.479 --> 1:17:57.800 This year? November? So there there is a ballot initiative 1:17:57.880 --> 1:18:02.360 that passed in Colorado to reintroduce wolves. Not not really 1:18:02.360 --> 1:18:05.439 though you already messed up. I don't think that that's true. 1:18:06.240 --> 1:18:08.200 What's not true about it? I thought it was like, 1:18:08.240 --> 1:18:11.800 it's not that level of specificity. Well I can let 1:18:11.840 --> 1:18:15.439 gas Bar, you know, talk about it. But anyway, we'll 1:18:15.439 --> 1:18:18.920 clear that out. But at the same time, there is 1:18:19.040 --> 1:18:22.880 a pat now a breeding pack of wolves established in Colorado, 1:18:22.920 --> 1:18:25.559 which is caught. You know, it was too late for 1:18:25.600 --> 1:18:29.919 that to have any impact on the measure that passed. 1:18:29.960 --> 1:18:34.000 But we've got these two things happening concurrently, and we're 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:38.920 past the point of like the reintroduction is happening. But 1:18:38.960 --> 1:18:42.479 gas Bar, do you want to explain to Steve what 1:18:42.479 --> 1:18:47.799 what happened? Look? Yeah, like, uh, Okay, the initiation, what 1:18:48.080 --> 1:18:52.479 was the damn initiative proposition? There you go, look at this. 1:18:52.520 --> 1:18:56.519 Now he's got the number. Yeah, so you know you're 1:18:56.560 --> 1:19:00.519 you're both right here. Um. Following this continuous trend of 1:19:00.800 --> 1:19:04.320 ballot box biology that we've seen throughout the West, Uh, 1:19:04.360 --> 1:19:10.320 Colorado voters narrowly past Proposition one fourteen that requires the 1:19:10.400 --> 1:19:18.320 state to reintroduce the northern gray wolf into Colorado. Uh. 1:19:18.360 --> 1:19:21.639 Well yeah, there's some caveats to this though, of course. UM. 1:19:21.760 --> 1:19:24.960 You know, it isn't as simple as to say, you know, 1:19:25.040 --> 1:19:27.320 we we passed the proposition, Now we go buy a 1:19:27.360 --> 1:19:30.200 bunch of wolves and drop them off in the state. Um. 1:19:30.760 --> 1:19:33.080 This gets a little bit complicated on it on account 1:19:33.080 --> 1:19:35.680 of a couple of different timing things that happened. Uh, 1:19:35.800 --> 1:19:39.719 most predominantly the ruling that came out of Secretary Bernhardt 1:19:39.800 --> 1:19:42.280 last year delisting the wolf in the lower forty eight. 1:19:42.400 --> 1:19:45.679 That happened also concurrently, of course, while the ballot major 1:19:45.760 --> 1:19:48.960 was in place. So there's a really unique convergence of 1:19:49.000 --> 1:19:51.800 events that um is unfolding for the first time, and 1:19:51.880 --> 1:19:54.240 not a lot of precedents on on how to navigate this. 1:19:54.280 --> 1:19:55.800 And we can get into that in detail if you 1:19:55.800 --> 1:20:00.520 guys would like, But effectively, what Proposition one fourteen acquired 1:20:00.760 --> 1:20:05.120 UM was for the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission to 1:20:05.200 --> 1:20:07.840 create a plan to reintroduce the wolves, and what they 1:20:07.880 --> 1:20:13.599 need to consider is, uh, the details for restoration, including 1:20:13.880 --> 1:20:19.479 specific selection of donor population, the place, manner and schedule 1:20:19.479 --> 1:20:24.280 of reintroduction, actions necessary or beneficial from maintaining a self 1:20:24.320 --> 1:20:29.679 sustaining population, and details for management, including distribution of state 1:20:29.720 --> 1:20:34.200 funds to compensate for livestock losses. So, uh, you know, 1:20:34.439 --> 1:20:37.479 the Commission has some lateral and how they go about 1:20:37.600 --> 1:20:41.920 developing this management plan. They recently just approved about a 1:20:41.960 --> 1:20:46.000 month ago a broad scope outline that puts some booke 1:20:46.040 --> 1:20:50.760 ins on the process, and that requires the formation of 1:20:51.080 --> 1:20:53.160 three things, the first of which is the hiring of 1:20:53.200 --> 1:20:56.360 a third party facilitator, the second of which is the 1:20:56.439 --> 1:20:59.360 creation of a working group, which is kind of the 1:20:59.400 --> 1:21:02.360 social amen of all of this, and then a scientific 1:21:02.479 --> 1:21:06.600 technical group, all of which will advise the Commission and 1:21:06.640 --> 1:21:10.160 the development of that final plan. Hey, gas bar can 1:21:10.200 --> 1:21:13.960 before we get too deep into the that policy stuff, 1:21:15.080 --> 1:21:17.800 do you want to talk about kind of the the 1:21:17.800 --> 1:21:21.479 wrenches that we're getting thrown into the process. Like just 1:21:21.640 --> 1:21:27.559 recently in regards to what Polus government Polis said as 1:21:27.640 --> 1:21:31.200 well as how it was going to be, there was 1:21:31.240 --> 1:21:34.200 some speculation that hunters and anglers were going to fund 1:21:34.240 --> 1:21:37.840 this thing and like that. These are the reasons why 1:21:37.880 --> 1:21:41.000 a lot of people were upset. Yeah, I think that's 1:21:41.000 --> 1:21:45.719 exactly right, Um, and I share that sense of frustration. Um. 1:21:45.880 --> 1:21:51.280 The language in the ballot was relatively arbitrary, associated with 1:21:51.320 --> 1:21:55.680 who was responsible from a fiduciary and financial perspective, UH, 1:21:55.880 --> 1:21:59.320 to pay for the implementation of prop One fourteen and 1:21:59.760 --> 1:22:04.160 why it does allow for um donations and contributions from 1:22:04.200 --> 1:22:08.000 third parties as well as the opportunity for an appropriation 1:22:08.120 --> 1:22:11.840 for from the General Assembly to the Division to pay 1:22:11.880 --> 1:22:15.320 for all of this. Absent any of that action, the 1:22:15.400 --> 1:22:17.799 plan has to be implemented on the backs of dollars 1:22:17.880 --> 1:22:21.080 generated through the sale of hunting and fishing licenses. And 1:22:21.280 --> 1:22:23.840 you know that's a frustration dust, not only because I 1:22:23.880 --> 1:22:26.360 think it flies in the face of this general underlying 1:22:26.400 --> 1:22:31.439 sentiment of Pittman, Robertson and Dingle Johnson. Um. You know 1:22:31.760 --> 1:22:34.080 it's worth noting, of course, the sportsmen of a long 1:22:34.200 --> 1:22:39.160 history of being willing to underwrite wildlife and conservation programs, 1:22:39.160 --> 1:22:41.800 so long as as those revenues go back to the 1:22:41.840 --> 1:22:45.479 perpetuation of the sport. That doesn't seem to be the 1:22:45.560 --> 1:22:49.760 case in this instance. And so um. Last year, during 1:22:49.800 --> 1:22:53.559 the legislative session, shortly after the passage of Prop One fourteen, 1:22:53.920 --> 1:22:56.760 we went to a couple of members um in the 1:22:56.800 --> 1:22:59.640 Colorado General Assembly and had asked them to draft and 1:22:59.680 --> 1:23:05.840 pass legislation that would have required the General Assembly, via 1:23:05.920 --> 1:23:09.320 taxpayer dollars, to come up with the revenue sources for 1:23:09.360 --> 1:23:13.880 the implementation of Proper one fourteen. Unfortunately, COVID does what 1:23:13.960 --> 1:23:16.160 COVID does and gotten the way of it and destroyed 1:23:16.200 --> 1:23:19.559 the whole process. Um. So here we are again this year, 1:23:19.640 --> 1:23:23.280 back at the legislature with a similar bill requesting that 1:23:23.520 --> 1:23:26.280 no general or I'm sorry, that no sportsman dollars be 1:23:26.360 --> 1:23:31.120 made available for the implementation or the restoration of wolves. 1:23:31.560 --> 1:23:33.200 Want to be clear, though, you know, this is not 1:23:33.280 --> 1:23:38.360 an effort to effectively relitigate or overturn Proposition one fourteen. 1:23:38.439 --> 1:23:41.080 It is is merely a way to identify an alternative 1:23:41.120 --> 1:23:44.240 revenue source. Let me let me hear with a couple 1:23:44.240 --> 1:23:46.120 of questions here, just so I can understand this better. 1:23:48.200 --> 1:23:54.040 Why did the arrival of wolves walking in on their 1:23:54.080 --> 1:23:59.280 own four ft into the state, Why did that not 1:23:59.520 --> 1:24:02.479 sort of gait and undo this whole conversation, Like, if 1:24:02.479 --> 1:24:06.280 the goal was to reintroduce wolves, why would you not 1:24:06.360 --> 1:24:13.040 be just ecstatic that it happened? You know, I'll say naturally. 1:24:13.080 --> 1:24:16.360 I mean it happened on the back of the Yellowstone reintroduction, 1:24:16.400 --> 1:24:20.240 but that was a long time ago. It's accepted now 1:24:21.120 --> 1:24:24.840 you had a natural reintroduction. Why why why is that 1:24:24.880 --> 1:24:28.200 not just viewed as a victory and that it puts 1:24:28.200 --> 1:24:33.160 to end the conversation. I think from our perspective, it 1:24:33.200 --> 1:24:36.000 is kind of viewed as a victory. Um. You know 1:24:36.880 --> 1:24:41.839 that discovery occurred after Proposition one fourteen was on the ballot. 1:24:42.520 --> 1:24:46.400 What simultaneously happened, as I mentioned, was Secretary Bernhardt issued 1:24:46.439 --> 1:24:49.400 a rule delisting the wolves in the lower forty. And 1:24:49.479 --> 1:24:54.160 so where we stand now is the Commission has got 1:24:54.200 --> 1:24:57.519 this obligation by the people of Colorado to move forward 1:24:57.560 --> 1:25:02.000 with a plan. Um, because we are in a scenario 1:25:02.120 --> 1:25:05.200 where the wolf is not listed. Uh. And back to 1:25:05.240 --> 1:25:07.880 the point that you had raised, Brody, the Governor had 1:25:07.920 --> 1:25:10.840 made a request of the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission 1:25:10.920 --> 1:25:15.200 to expedite the timeline for the reintroduction effort of Prop. 1:25:15.320 --> 1:25:18.040 One fourteen. The reason in the thinking behind that, I 1:25:18.080 --> 1:25:22.160 can assume is that I don't think there's anybody who 1:25:22.240 --> 1:25:24.160 is of the opinion that the wolf is not likely 1:25:24.200 --> 1:25:27.000 to find itself back on the list in the near future. 1:25:27.040 --> 1:25:30.360 And so there's this narrow window of opportunity where you 1:25:30.400 --> 1:25:33.519 aren't subject to the endangered species laws and rules that 1:25:33.600 --> 1:25:40.280 governed reintroduction like took place in in Idaho and Wyoming, UM, 1:25:40.320 --> 1:25:45.120 And so you know, hypothetically there's nothing legally that would 1:25:45.160 --> 1:25:48.400 preclude them from just going and purchasing wolves and dropping 1:25:48.439 --> 1:25:53.920 them on the landscape. UM. Fortunately, the Commission, I think 1:25:53.960 --> 1:25:57.479 so good wisdom and pursuing what they're calling it a 1:25:57.560 --> 1:26:00.880 preliminary tin J, which is a section of the the 1:26:01.080 --> 1:26:04.840 s A. But it effectively, UM would establish a plan 1:26:04.960 --> 1:26:07.599 that in the occasion the wolves were to get relisted again, 1:26:07.800 --> 1:26:10.640 it would give some give the state some flexibility on 1:26:10.680 --> 1:26:16.360 the management prescriptions, particularly with respect to lethal take. So yeah, 1:26:16.439 --> 1:26:19.439 you know, there's a question as to you know, what 1:26:19.560 --> 1:26:23.639 a determination from US Fish and Wildlife Service UM would mean, 1:26:23.960 --> 1:26:30.160 because these reintroduced populations traditionally have been UM non essential 1:26:30.680 --> 1:26:34.960 separate populations. But now that we have an established population 1:26:35.040 --> 1:26:37.639 in the state, there's a question as to what does 1:26:37.640 --> 1:26:41.080 that mean UM for a reintroduction effort, and we're an 1:26:41.120 --> 1:26:45.200 uncharted territory here, it's relatively unclear what US Fish and 1:26:45.439 --> 1:26:49.360 Wildlife Service might say about that. Is So you guys 1:26:49.400 --> 1:26:52.719 think that the Biden administration is going to turn around 1:26:52.960 --> 1:26:55.960 and UH is going to turn around and and re 1:26:57.360 --> 1:27:02.759 like relist wolves. They did include it on their Rural 1:27:02.800 --> 1:27:06.240 review UM coming out of this every year and incoming 1:27:06.280 --> 1:27:09.439 administration has the opportunity to take a look at the 1:27:09.520 --> 1:27:12.439 rules that were issued under a previous administration, and they 1:27:12.479 --> 1:27:15.599 do have the authority to overturn those. I think what's 1:27:15.600 --> 1:27:19.879 more likely to happen is that a judicial determination will 1:27:20.000 --> 1:27:23.800 result in them going back on the list. Man. As 1:27:23.880 --> 1:27:27.680 far as the it's not just as far as like 1:27:28.120 --> 1:27:30.200 the FEDS to use the broad term, but like the 1:27:30.560 --> 1:27:35.160 s A in regards to reintroduction, right, it's not just 1:27:35.240 --> 1:27:37.800 the presence of wolves in the state, but it's the 1:27:37.840 --> 1:27:41.360 health of that population. Right. So isn't there a lingering 1:27:41.439 --> 1:27:47.080 question of like we're gonna do some uh uh some 1:27:47.080 --> 1:27:53.240 some damn studies this spring and and see if we 1:27:53.280 --> 1:27:56.640 can't howl up a bunch of wolf puppies in the 1:27:56.680 --> 1:28:01.479 Stata why or in the state of Colorado. Yeah, I 1:28:01.520 --> 1:28:05.439 think those are still slightly separate discussions though, right, because 1:28:05.880 --> 1:28:10.880 the statutory mandate that came from the voters, uh is 1:28:10.920 --> 1:28:15.400 a question that's disconnected from the evaluation of es A. Right, 1:28:16.280 --> 1:28:20.120 there's not necessarily a scenario where a Fish and Wildlife 1:28:20.160 --> 1:28:23.840 or a FED decision in this case, would have the 1:28:23.880 --> 1:28:28.320 effect of circumventing the responsibility that the Parks and Wildlife 1:28:28.320 --> 1:28:30.920 Commission is tasked with right now, So I think they, 1:28:31.720 --> 1:28:35.639 you know, exist independently, and how they come together and 1:28:35.960 --> 1:28:41.280 ultimately approving a reintroduction effort is the question. And it's 1:28:41.320 --> 1:28:44.880 anyone's guess how those two will be evaluated, uh, concurrently 1:28:45.000 --> 1:28:52.320 by the FEDS. Gasbar just recently correct me if I'm wrong. Um, 1:28:52.439 --> 1:28:55.640 we found out that it's not going to be a 1:28:55.680 --> 1:28:58.639 situation where they just start cutting wolves loose this year, 1:28:58.680 --> 1:29:03.200 that they that, like Governor polls suggested, like, they have 1:29:03.400 --> 1:29:06.760 to follow the planning and procedure process that was outlined 1:29:06.800 --> 1:29:11.160 in the initiative. Yeah. The thinking is that this will 1:29:11.160 --> 1:29:14.360 occur over a three year timeline, and there's a there's 1:29:14.400 --> 1:29:16.879 a huge social element to this, as you might imagine, 1:29:17.040 --> 1:29:22.000 just given the politics that surround reintroduction efforts, particularly with 1:29:22.080 --> 1:29:25.840 respect to wolves, of course. But um, yeah, so the 1:29:25.880 --> 1:29:29.360 Science and Technical Committee presumably will dedicate a lot of 1:29:29.400 --> 1:29:33.959 time to identifying what is suitable habitat how the interplay 1:29:34.040 --> 1:29:36.680 between the existing wolf population in the state and this 1:29:37.000 --> 1:29:43.800 wholly separate introduced population might exist. Um. And you know 1:29:44.120 --> 1:29:47.200 collectively that that social element and the science and technical 1:29:47.200 --> 1:29:52.519 element um will help script the ultimate management plan. And 1:29:52.920 --> 1:29:55.400 the thinking is that that will be that will take 1:29:55.400 --> 1:29:59.720 place over roughly a three year timeline. UM. The statue, 1:30:00.640 --> 1:30:02.960 the language, and the proposition says that they need to 1:30:03.000 --> 1:30:05.720 take the steps necessary to introduce wolves by the end 1:30:05.720 --> 1:30:09.920 of That doesn't necessarily imply that wolves need to be 1:30:09.960 --> 1:30:12.799 on the ground at that date, but that the process 1:30:12.840 --> 1:30:16.200 for the reintroduction needs to be concluded and the effort 1:30:16.240 --> 1:30:21.360 needs to commence quickly thereafter. You know, I'm gonna get 1:30:21.360 --> 1:30:25.519 to a rumor I heard as beyond rumor, but um 1:30:25.720 --> 1:30:31.040 an idea about different strains. Um, well, some people call 1:30:31.120 --> 1:30:35.240 subspecies of wolves. But before I said that, I'll point 1:30:35.280 --> 1:30:42.840 out the historically wolves existed in a continuous band. Um. 1:30:42.920 --> 1:30:45.760 You know there there there weren't gaps and populations, right, 1:30:45.840 --> 1:30:50.080 So you had these large, you know, these large gray 1:30:50.120 --> 1:30:52.679 wolves in the north, and then you had what we've 1:30:52.680 --> 1:30:55.720 come to call the you know, much smaller Mexican gray 1:30:55.760 --> 1:30:59.880 wolf from the south, and and you had these variations, 1:31:00.520 --> 1:31:03.960 but there weren't hard edges between the populations. Isn't there 1:31:04.000 --> 1:31:07.679 some issue in Colorado where it seems that the people 1:31:07.720 --> 1:31:12.240 that are really driving for the reintroduction would have been 1:31:12.640 --> 1:31:16.719 angling towards having it be Mexican gray wolves in the south, 1:31:16.960 --> 1:31:18.800 but the ones that showed up on their own, are 1:31:19.840 --> 1:31:23.920 you know, a larger, different northern animal. Is there is 1:31:23.920 --> 1:31:26.559 there some friction there on that because I know the 1:31:26.560 --> 1:31:29.200 proposition doesn't get into that. But wasn't that the intention 1:31:30.040 --> 1:31:33.439 would be there would be Mexican gray wolves. There's been 1:31:33.439 --> 1:31:38.320 a lot of discussion around that. Um. It's interesting because 1:31:38.760 --> 1:31:42.400 the all of Colorado is in the historic range of 1:31:42.439 --> 1:31:45.559 the northern gray wolf. That is not true for for 1:31:45.600 --> 1:31:49.200 the Mexican wolf. And so I think from a um 1:31:49.360 --> 1:31:53.200 you know, e s a standard perspective, the recovery of 1:31:53.240 --> 1:31:55.599 the northern gray wolves is a is a more likely 1:31:55.680 --> 1:31:59.080 scenario in Colorado. But you know, there has there has 1:31:59.120 --> 1:32:01.400 been a lot of conversation and about you know, what 1:32:01.439 --> 1:32:03.240 it might mean in the occasion that they were to 1:32:03.360 --> 1:32:07.400 cross pollenate. Um. You know, if if northern gray wolves 1:32:07.439 --> 1:32:09.439 were to migrate to the southern part of the state, 1:32:09.920 --> 1:32:15.200 would there be conflict between the Mexican wolf population, and 1:32:15.280 --> 1:32:17.479 so you know, there have been even comments from some 1:32:17.560 --> 1:32:20.439 of the members of the Commission seeking to shift this 1:32:20.640 --> 1:32:23.679 thinking from the Northern gray wolf to to the Mexican wolf. 1:32:24.840 --> 1:32:27.679 As it stands currently, I think it's more likely that 1:32:28.320 --> 1:32:32.559 the pursuit for reintroduction will likely fall with the Northern 1:32:32.600 --> 1:32:37.400 gray And there there's another level of conflict, right because 1:32:37.400 --> 1:32:43.320 the Mexican wolf is listed and the recovery efforts are 1:32:43.400 --> 1:32:48.200 like there there's a legal conundrum there, right, It's like, well, no, 1:32:48.280 --> 1:32:52.160 you're legally bound by the s A to recover this 1:32:52.240 --> 1:32:55.640 wolf in these areas. And like how it's written and 1:32:55.680 --> 1:32:58.040 what happens when gene pools start getting mad, Well, that's 1:32:58.080 --> 1:32:59.920 what I understanding, Like all the all the hassle they 1:33:00.000 --> 1:33:03.360 put in over the years, um, And you know, I 1:33:03.360 --> 1:33:06.160 don't it doesn't bother me all all the work we 1:33:06.240 --> 1:33:09.160 put in over the years to identify range, get source 1:33:09.200 --> 1:33:13.120 population animals, and re established the Mexican wolf two, then 1:33:14.040 --> 1:33:16.519 it ain't It's not far from the San Juan Mountains 1:33:16.600 --> 1:33:19.000 to you know, so it seems like it's it seems 1:33:19.040 --> 1:33:21.479 like you'd probably you know, I guess some people might 1:33:21.479 --> 1:33:22.920 point out and be like, they don't really care about 1:33:22.920 --> 1:33:25.200 those level of details. If it's wolves as wolves, and 1:33:25.200 --> 1:33:28.000 then you gotta stop calling them Mexican wolves, right. You 1:33:28.040 --> 1:33:32.320 need the old high school dance biological chaperones out there? 1:33:32.800 --> 1:33:40.800 Whoa you too? If you if you had uh here, 1:33:41.040 --> 1:33:42.920 I'll save my crystal. I'd like to say my crystal 1:33:42.920 --> 1:33:45.840 ball question for later. Go ahead, Brodie. Oh, I mean, 1:33:45.920 --> 1:33:48.679 I think we've we've hit it pretty good as far 1:33:48.720 --> 1:33:52.360 as what's going on. I mean, why did you Colorado 1:33:52.439 --> 1:33:56.440 people decided to put this up to I'm a registered 1:33:56.479 --> 1:34:01.920 Montana voter jack um, But yeah, I spent a lot 1:34:01.960 --> 1:34:04.080 of time there, and I was happy to live in 1:34:04.080 --> 1:34:07.080 a state where I didn't have to compete with wolves 1:34:07.720 --> 1:34:10.280 to kill an elk, you know, But then up here 1:34:10.360 --> 1:34:14.280 it's like, you know, there's plenty of elk getting killed. 1:34:14.320 --> 1:34:16.320 I know, I know, I'm gonna get crucified for saying 1:34:16.360 --> 1:34:19.240 that that. Here. Here, here, Here's how I always explain 1:34:19.280 --> 1:34:28.920 to people. Um Alaska has wolves across nineties some of 1:34:29.000 --> 1:34:33.160 their historic range. They have grizzlies across the entirety of 1:34:33.160 --> 1:34:36.200 the historic range. Why does everybody want to go honey 1:34:36.200 --> 1:34:38.439 in Alaska? I don't know. I always tell people you 1:34:38.479 --> 1:34:40.760 wouldn't like and you would like this. Wolves a load 1:34:40.840 --> 1:34:43.080 of plays things with teeth everything. There's wolves everywhere, so 1:34:43.120 --> 1:34:45.120 there must not be any animals there. But I do 1:34:45.200 --> 1:34:49.240 have the wolf. But everybody wants to go there and hunt. 1:34:49.920 --> 1:34:52.160 So it's like it is a hard thing for people 1:34:52.200 --> 1:34:54.240 to explain it. You'd be like, wolves will be the 1:34:54.320 --> 1:34:56.880 end of hunting in Colorado and and for a while, 1:34:57.360 --> 1:35:00.439 it'll see if they come on hard because because it 1:35:00.840 --> 1:35:03.000 there's a learning curve. There's a learning curve on the elk, 1:35:03.080 --> 1:35:04.880 like when when they brought him into the when they 1:35:04.920 --> 1:35:09.200 brought him into the Greater Yellowstone area, I mean you 1:35:09.240 --> 1:35:13.080 saw two thirds drop offs and elk populations. I mean, 1:35:13.120 --> 1:35:16.160 they they do not understand, like hey look at that 1:35:16.200 --> 1:35:19.640 dog and and all of a sudden, Yeah, So my 1:35:19.640 --> 1:35:23.120 my concerns in Colorado are they have. There are these 1:35:23.280 --> 1:35:27.040 large elk herds that right now they can't figure out 1:35:27.120 --> 1:35:29.800 what the hell is going on, Like the kaff recruitment 1:35:29.880 --> 1:35:33.920 is very poor, and these elk herds are their numbers 1:35:33.920 --> 1:35:37.879 are going down, and those elk herds are in areas 1:35:37.880 --> 1:35:40.920 where wolves are gonna end up. For sure it is 1:35:41.000 --> 1:35:45.240 gonna Yeah, it will. It's like, no more things piss 1:35:45.280 --> 1:35:46.960 out of them. But I don't. I think it's it'll 1:35:47.040 --> 1:35:50.080 knock the piss out of them, but it won't be 1:35:50.080 --> 1:35:55.880 the end. No, no, Yanni, you moved. Yeah, I we've 1:35:55.920 --> 1:35:59.320 got top are we are furnace is getting fixed. Finally 1:35:59.320 --> 1:36:00.960 we've been out of Hea for like two weeks and 1:36:01.000 --> 1:36:03.400 the dudes coming over. So he's gonna be in the 1:36:03.439 --> 1:36:06.479 basement where I was at. Congratulations. And what else do 1:36:06.560 --> 1:36:11.920 we need to point out? Though? About your Yellowstone? Uh? 1:36:12.240 --> 1:36:16.200 You know Northern heard of Yellowstone that dropped by two thirds. Uh, 1:36:16.240 --> 1:36:19.040 there was other factors, they think now there was like 1:36:19.040 --> 1:36:24.800 a perfect storm of habitat a super high, unhealthy population 1:36:25.280 --> 1:36:29.040 and then the wolves coming in that produced that precipitous drop. 1:36:29.439 --> 1:36:32.120 And then it's you can't just say because the wolves 1:36:32.120 --> 1:36:34.200 showed up that that's what did it. It was there 1:36:34.479 --> 1:36:37.280 was some coincidence there. Well, there's it's never one thing. 1:36:37.400 --> 1:36:40.519 But when you throw one more thing on top of 1:36:40.560 --> 1:36:43.200 those herds that are hurting in Colorado, I mean, the 1:36:43.560 --> 1:36:47.000 end results not gonna be good. I wouldn't imagine. Well, 1:36:47.040 --> 1:36:49.479 and you honestly touched on an interesting point there, right. 1:36:49.720 --> 1:36:51.759 A lot of the proponents of this have been using 1:36:51.800 --> 1:36:56.400 this trophic cascade as the baseline for why this makes sense. 1:36:57.080 --> 1:37:01.519 And you know, I think by all accounts, some of 1:37:01.560 --> 1:37:06.000 the trophic cascade argument has been overblown. Um. You know 1:37:06.200 --> 1:37:12.120 we've learned since the introductions. Can you explain trophic cascade? Please? Yeah, 1:37:12.160 --> 1:37:16.200 the trophis cascade is effectively this idea, and as far 1:37:16.240 --> 1:37:20.240 as I understand it, um, it originated out of this 1:37:20.240 --> 1:37:24.080 this concept that predators and the relationship that they have 1:37:24.240 --> 1:37:29.920 with prey can improve the ecological conditions of a select environment. Um. 1:37:30.800 --> 1:37:32.519 It was reading the other day a study about some 1:37:32.560 --> 1:37:34.320 of the early thinking about this, and they were talking 1:37:34.360 --> 1:37:39.400 about the relationship between spiders who scared grasshoppers improving grass 1:37:39.439 --> 1:37:43.240 conditions in a unique area. And of course, you know 1:37:43.760 --> 1:37:48.759 when wolves were introduced into Yellowstone that that scientific theory 1:37:48.880 --> 1:37:52.599 was quickly overlaid and a lot of the ecological improvement 1:37:52.600 --> 1:37:55.880 in the Yellowstone area has been attributable alone to the 1:37:55.920 --> 1:38:00.320 reintroduction of wolves. There's been a subsequent series of these 1:38:00.360 --> 1:38:03.440 that have indicated that well, yeah, they certainly have contributed 1:38:03.479 --> 1:38:08.120 to a degree of the improvement. Um, it seems a 1:38:08.320 --> 1:38:13.120 bit overstated to claim that a soul species is accountable 1:38:13.160 --> 1:38:16.160 for all of the improvement that we have seen. Um 1:38:16.560 --> 1:38:18.920 at our Net, who's the chief scientist for t RCP, 1:38:20.200 --> 1:38:23.120 was explaining to me that, you know, wolves very seldomly 1:38:23.240 --> 1:38:27.280 changed their eating behabits, habits or their their food preference um, 1:38:27.360 --> 1:38:31.160 specifically with relation to aspen and willows, which a lot 1:38:31.200 --> 1:38:34.120 of the trophic cascade argument has been based on on 1:38:34.200 --> 1:38:38.920 account of wolves being present. And so you know, undeniably 1:38:39.000 --> 1:38:43.320 there there could be circumstances where wolves dispersing um wildlife 1:38:43.320 --> 1:38:47.559 populations to other areas and disrupting the concentration that we 1:38:47.600 --> 1:38:51.080 see in winter grounds might be beneficial to the health. 1:38:51.160 --> 1:38:53.240 The other piece too, that the proponents have been talking 1:38:53.280 --> 1:38:56.639 about is the potential benefit of the introduction of wolves 1:38:56.680 --> 1:38:59.200 to the c w D problem that we have in Colorado. 1:38:59.840 --> 1:39:03.040 And again, um, you know, very likely maybe the case 1:39:03.400 --> 1:39:06.160 you know, I think it's relatively fair to say that 1:39:06.240 --> 1:39:11.200 the wolves have this innate sense of ability to to 1:39:11.280 --> 1:39:16.559 peel off the weaker prey in a population. Um, as 1:39:16.600 --> 1:39:18.439 far as I'm aware, and I need to state that 1:39:18.479 --> 1:39:21.639 I'm not a biologist, but it seems a little bit 1:39:21.680 --> 1:39:24.080 far fetched to me as well to think that, you know, 1:39:24.120 --> 1:39:27.240 the introduction of wolves in Colorado would result in in 1:39:27.280 --> 1:39:30.519 the stop of the spread or wholesale turnaround in the 1:39:30.560 --> 1:39:34.200 c w D conditions that we have. So yeah, could 1:39:34.439 --> 1:39:37.280 could there be some benefits? Sure, Um, I just don't 1:39:37.320 --> 1:39:43.120 find those to be the baseline, uh scientific explanation for 1:39:43.160 --> 1:39:46.320 the reintroduction that others have claimed. Oh that the scene 1:39:46.320 --> 1:39:48.679 that d thing is a joke, man, We've talked about 1:39:48.680 --> 1:39:50.959 that before too. Is like the animals are the animals 1:39:50.960 --> 1:39:57.599 are infected for sometimes years before their symptomatic It's such 1:39:57.640 --> 1:39:59.280 a joke. And then the thing that they you know, 1:39:59.320 --> 1:40:01.760 and I'm about an have wolf person, but let's let's 1:40:01.800 --> 1:40:03.400 let's at least talk with a little bit of like, 1:40:04.280 --> 1:40:07.240 you know, have it be slightly reality tinged when we 1:40:07.240 --> 1:40:09.479 talk about it. This idea that they you know, this 1:40:09.640 --> 1:40:13.800 this Farley Moat oversimplification that came from the movie Um, 1:40:13.840 --> 1:40:15.800 you know the never cry wolf thing that they like 1:40:15.960 --> 1:40:21.760 trimm disease from the herd. They prey on calves and 1:40:21.840 --> 1:40:25.800 pregnant females of pregnant females, your most valuable animal. It's like, 1:40:26.000 --> 1:40:29.679 I understand, like it's fine to like wolves, but why 1:40:29.680 --> 1:40:32.800 can't we just can't just like them as what they 1:40:32.800 --> 1:40:36.280 are and not act like there's like these magical creatures. Well, 1:40:36.320 --> 1:40:39.559 the trophic cascade argument is does have a very strong 1:40:39.640 --> 1:40:45.080 correlation to systems in which people have been removed. So 1:40:45.320 --> 1:40:48.960 this that's not a joke, right. It's like, if you 1:40:49.000 --> 1:40:52.920 can the trophic cascade argument in in a vacuum in 1:40:52.960 --> 1:40:57.479 which human beings don't exist, works great. You apply that 1:40:57.600 --> 1:41:03.400 onto a system that's highly highly managed for wildlife over 1:41:04.720 --> 1:41:10.320 human use interaction, like a national park. Um, you can 1:41:10.320 --> 1:41:13.360 see it like applied there and see how yep, these 1:41:13.439 --> 1:41:16.479 dots can connect. But it doesn't do us all that 1:41:16.600 --> 1:41:22.599 much good in working situations where you know, human beings 1:41:22.640 --> 1:41:25.280 are active on the landscape. Yeah, it's like that that 1:41:25.640 --> 1:41:29.639 quote we talked about before describing Yellowstone is blank um 1:41:30.080 --> 1:41:34.720 square miles of paradise surrounded by reality. Brody kind of 1:41:34.760 --> 1:41:36.720 hit on an interesting point. Where Brody talked about not 1:41:36.760 --> 1:41:39.040 wanting to compete with wolves, and I think it's funny 1:41:39.080 --> 1:41:46.160 that how it's funny how much people tiptoe around that. Sure, 1:41:46.479 --> 1:41:48.160 I mean, but I don't think there's anything wrong with 1:41:48.320 --> 1:41:51.880 saying that, UM. I don't think there's anything wrong was 1:41:51.920 --> 1:41:57.560 saying that that I value um having a resource to 1:41:57.600 --> 1:42:01.240 be available to people, at least the knowledge I'm saying, like, yes, 1:42:01.360 --> 1:42:04.360 I think that I like having elk, and like I'm 1:42:04.400 --> 1:42:08.160 fine having elk and deer on the landscape because people 1:42:08.200 --> 1:42:12.760 want them and we have like regulated legal hunting for them, 1:42:12.800 --> 1:42:15.560 and so I'm fine having to be that we acknowledge that. 1:42:15.680 --> 1:42:18.800 But people act like it's like it's it's a taboo perspective. 1:42:20.200 --> 1:42:22.240 I like eating milk, And I think that there's a 1:42:22.240 --> 1:42:25.120 lot of people in the wolf reintroduction world that don't 1:42:25.160 --> 1:42:28.439 mind that are in the back of their head. They'll 1:42:28.439 --> 1:42:29.760 never admit it. In the back of the head. They 1:42:29.800 --> 1:42:31.360 do kind of like to stick it to hunters a 1:42:31.400 --> 1:42:33.320 little bit like this is one guy like that one 1:42:33.360 --> 1:42:36.000 of the chief marketing officers, like the CMO of the 1:42:36.080 --> 1:42:39.240 wolf world, even what he called he talks about the 1:42:39.240 --> 1:42:43.479 recreational big game killing industry. Like that's his viewpoint on hunting. 1:42:44.240 --> 1:42:45.640 And I think he's like he used to hunt, but 1:42:45.680 --> 1:42:49.000 then he quit. Um, and that's like how he typifies 1:42:49.040 --> 1:42:51.479 the hunting world to say, like, oh, the only people 1:42:51.479 --> 1:42:53.240 that that don't want a bunch of wolves is the 1:42:53.240 --> 1:42:57.320 recreational big game killing industry. Um, as though it's like 1:42:57.400 --> 1:43:00.479 naughty to go hunting. But I can say this because 1:43:00.520 --> 1:43:04.880 at one point I did hunt so peasant or something. 1:43:07.360 --> 1:43:10.760 Oh I don't know, man, tell me why, Like, give 1:43:10.760 --> 1:43:12.800 me your perspective on it, Like can you talk like 1:43:12.960 --> 1:43:15.240 as a person or you gotta stay all official gas bar? 1:43:16.280 --> 1:43:19.439 Oh no, hit me, what's your question? Sell me? I'm 1:43:19.439 --> 1:43:22.000 not liking wolves in Colorado unless you don't even care 1:43:22.040 --> 1:43:25.560 to sell me on that. Yeah. I think the discussion 1:43:25.600 --> 1:43:28.600 we're having here really is whether or not a reintroduction 1:43:28.680 --> 1:43:32.400 is appropriate. Right. Look, I mean wolves are coming down, Um, 1:43:32.439 --> 1:43:35.080 they've migrated in. It's not going to be long before 1:43:35.120 --> 1:43:38.400 we have an established pack in Colorado and they're going 1:43:38.439 --> 1:43:42.120 to coexist. I think that question is a foregone conclusion 1:43:42.200 --> 1:43:46.439 at this point. Um. You know I'm sympathetic to what 1:43:46.479 --> 1:43:48.280 you said. Look, you know I'm a big game hunter. 1:43:48.360 --> 1:43:51.120 I spend a month in the field during archery season, 1:43:51.320 --> 1:43:53.920 chasing elk every year, and it's my passion and it's 1:43:53.920 --> 1:43:55.320 what I like to do. And I would be lying 1:43:55.360 --> 1:43:58.800 if I said anything other than I'm worried about the 1:43:58.800 --> 1:44:02.200 impact it will have on the big game populations. But 1:44:02.320 --> 1:44:04.200 I don't think you can evaluate all of this in 1:44:04.280 --> 1:44:07.880 a vacuum either, right, Brody touched on it. We've got 1:44:08.360 --> 1:44:11.960 I live in northwest Colorado and we've got tremendous problems 1:44:12.000 --> 1:44:14.160 with both our deer and our elk herd up there. 1:44:14.200 --> 1:44:18.400 At the moment um, you know, it's accountable to changes 1:44:18.479 --> 1:44:24.200 in habitat loss um. Drought conditions were incredibly severe last year, 1:44:24.479 --> 1:44:27.519 our caffe recruitments somewhere in like the low thirty percent 1:44:27.600 --> 1:44:31.640 at the moment the expanding outdoor recreation is having devastating 1:44:31.720 --> 1:44:34.240 impacts on that piece as well, And so to layer 1:44:34.320 --> 1:44:37.880 one additional UM component that will add strain to the 1:44:37.960 --> 1:44:40.479 herd seems to me like we're getting pretty close to 1:44:40.520 --> 1:44:44.680 the to the tipping point. And UM, I I come 1:44:44.720 --> 1:44:46.680 from the vantage point that we need to take a 1:44:46.720 --> 1:44:50.759 holistic perspective of all of this. UM. Wildlife management doesn't 1:44:50.800 --> 1:44:54.960 exist in a vacuum, and Uh, you know, my experience 1:44:54.960 --> 1:44:58.200 has been that the proponents of the wolf reintroduction are 1:44:58.240 --> 1:45:02.240 interested in exclusively that peace. Um, I don't think they 1:45:02.280 --> 1:45:05.799 have given honest assessment to the impacts across the board. 1:45:06.479 --> 1:45:09.600 And you know, I'm relatively agnostic as to whether or 1:45:09.680 --> 1:45:12.800 not there's a population of wolves in the state. I 1:45:12.840 --> 1:45:15.720 would prefer that they come in naturally and that the 1:45:15.760 --> 1:45:21.799 state maintains management authority. Um. You know, call me a skeptic, 1:45:21.920 --> 1:45:25.840 but I am skeptical of of the reintroduction process. I mean, 1:45:25.840 --> 1:45:29.240 when you look through the timeline of the listing and 1:45:29.360 --> 1:45:32.960 d listing decisions that occurred with the introduced populations in 1:45:33.000 --> 1:45:36.040 Idaho and Wyoming, in some cases they were taken off 1:45:36.040 --> 1:45:39.200 and put back on the list, um, you know, upwards 1:45:39.200 --> 1:45:43.480 of six different times. And we have far far exceeded 1:45:43.760 --> 1:45:46.519 the recovery objectives in all of those cases. So it's 1:45:46.600 --> 1:45:49.080 you know, to think that the plan that we come 1:45:49.160 --> 1:45:51.559 up with as a state is going to have some 1:45:51.640 --> 1:45:56.320 long lasting effect and won't be uh, you know, affected 1:45:56.360 --> 1:45:59.400 by the long history of litigation efforts that we've seen. 1:45:59.479 --> 1:46:02.720 I think is is a foolish perspective and so yeah, 1:46:02.960 --> 1:46:06.200 I'm skeptical of the reintroduction effort on that account. You know. 1:46:06.280 --> 1:46:09.880 By way of example, um, I think there was like 1:46:10.280 --> 1:46:14.680 thirty one wolves that were introduced in total um in Idaho. 1:46:14.960 --> 1:46:19.679 That was like the state didn't get uh the ability 1:46:19.760 --> 1:46:23.280 to hunt them until two thousand and nine. Their their 1:46:23.360 --> 1:46:27.240 recovery objective, if I remember correctly, was tin wolves or 1:46:27.640 --> 1:46:30.360 tin populate or tin packs are tin packs or a 1:46:30.439 --> 1:46:34.040 hundred plus wolves, And by two thousand and nine, when 1:46:34.040 --> 1:46:37.520 the state finally got the management prescription and the ability 1:46:37.600 --> 1:46:40.720 to harvest them via hunter, there was something like eight 1:46:40.760 --> 1:46:45.599 hundred and fifty wolves and so um. Yeah, to think 1:46:45.680 --> 1:46:48.840 that once our recovery objective in the state is achieved 1:46:48.880 --> 1:46:52.400 in the state, at that point will is assume full 1:46:52.479 --> 1:46:55.960 management authority and we will be able to keep the 1:46:56.040 --> 1:46:59.880 population in check. From an eco ecosystem perspective, I just 1:47:00.720 --> 1:47:03.120 I don't have much faith in that outcome. No, dude, 1:47:03.160 --> 1:47:05.559 they'll they'll dick you. They'll they'll dick you around so 1:47:05.600 --> 1:47:07.880 bad you'll never see the end of it. It's like 1:47:08.439 --> 1:47:11.840 they it's kind of the playbook. And you know, I 1:47:11.840 --> 1:47:13.800 would play dirty too if I was trying to get 1:47:13.840 --> 1:47:17.760 what I wanted around wildlife. But they'll it's a playbook 1:47:17.760 --> 1:47:19.640 that they're like, oh no, no no, no, no, it's just 1:47:19.680 --> 1:47:21.640 gonna go like this. Then we'll hand it over to 1:47:21.640 --> 1:47:24.360 the state and it'll be like this number and there 1:47:24.360 --> 1:47:28.479 won't be these kind of restrictions, and then you get it, 1:47:28.479 --> 1:47:31.479 it goes way longer, and then they will legally block 1:47:31.560 --> 1:47:34.880 you in the courts from ever getting what the concessions 1:47:34.880 --> 1:47:38.760 that were supposed to be made in terms of the reintroduction. Yeah, 1:47:38.760 --> 1:47:43.240 and you're talking about an initiative that what was it, 1:47:43.360 --> 1:47:46.559 gas bar, Like fifty four out of sixty four counties 1:47:46.680 --> 1:47:52.799 voted against. Uh, yeah, so it passed in only twelve 1:47:52.840 --> 1:47:56.679 of the sixty four counties statewide. And you know, remember 1:47:56.720 --> 1:47:59.840 that the the initiatives said that introduction could only occur 1:48:00.160 --> 1:48:03.200 west of the Continental Divide, so you know, effectively the 1:48:03.240 --> 1:48:07.040 western half of the state and only four of the 1:48:07.040 --> 1:48:11.080 counties west of the Continental Divide supported it. Um. But 1:48:11.160 --> 1:48:13.880 you know, look, Boulder County supported it with a margin 1:48:13.960 --> 1:48:16.600 of sixty to thirty two, and Boulder Counties kind of 1:48:16.600 --> 1:48:20.280 our our our liberal hot spot in the state, whereas 1:48:20.320 --> 1:48:24.080 Rio Blanco County, UM, a location that's very likely to 1:48:24.200 --> 1:48:29.200 be picked as a reintroduction location, denied it. To twelve, 1:48:29.600 --> 1:48:32.200 the average no voting counties in the area that would 1:48:32.200 --> 1:48:35.639 be affected was sixty. This is a trend that we've 1:48:35.640 --> 1:48:38.920 seen in all of the ballot majors, you know, dating 1:48:38.960 --> 1:48:43.240 back to to the the constitutional ban on trapping as 1:48:43.240 --> 1:48:46.200 well as the uh, the bear hunting restrictions that we 1:48:46.200 --> 1:48:49.559 saw in the state. And so yeah, yeah, it's very 1:48:49.640 --> 1:48:55.080 much an urban rural divide. Huh. All right, So that 1:48:55.080 --> 1:48:58.080 that was time for the crystal ball question. Do you 1:48:58.160 --> 1:49:01.960 think that, I don't know why you wouldn't think this, 1:49:02.640 --> 1:49:05.280 but do you think that whatever, three years whatever, they 1:49:05.320 --> 1:49:13.080 will be opening up crates and cutting loose new wolves 1:49:13.520 --> 1:49:17.240 or do you think that somehow the existing population that's 1:49:17.280 --> 1:49:22.080 got there on its own, would you know, it would 1:49:22.600 --> 1:49:27.400 develop expand become healthy and self sustaining and they would 1:49:27.479 --> 1:49:30.040 somehow magically be like, oh, never mind, We're just gonna 1:49:30.040 --> 1:49:31.960 stick with what we got. Or do you think that 1:49:32.000 --> 1:49:35.639 this is like happening, man, this is going to go down. 1:49:36.439 --> 1:49:38.160 I think the latter part of what you said is 1:49:38.160 --> 1:49:42.040 going to be true. Under either circumstance. The population that's 1:49:42.080 --> 1:49:45.360 here is going to continue to breed. I do think 1:49:45.400 --> 1:49:48.840 that the Parks and Wildlife Commission will develop a plan 1:49:49.720 --> 1:49:53.559 for reintroduction of wolves. They are pursuing what's called this 1:49:53.600 --> 1:49:57.639 preliminary ten j uh. It's never been done. Colorado will 1:49:57.680 --> 1:50:00.760 be the first state that has actively, from a state 1:50:00.760 --> 1:50:04.800 initiated perspective pursuit of reintroduction of of a wolf population 1:50:05.760 --> 1:50:08.640 um on the assumption that the wolf goes back on 1:50:08.680 --> 1:50:10.840 the list in the next three years. And I think 1:50:10.880 --> 1:50:14.560 that's a high likelihood. I think there are serious questions 1:50:14.600 --> 1:50:17.920 that remain as to whether or not US Fish and 1:50:17.920 --> 1:50:22.800 Wildlife Service will ultimately approve a reintroduction plan in light 1:50:22.880 --> 1:50:27.439 of the existing wolf population in the state. Man, the 1:50:27.479 --> 1:50:32.479 wolves are almost screwing themselves. The wolves that we're going 1:50:32.520 --> 1:50:35.880 to get dropped off probably the wolves that we're going 1:50:35.920 --> 1:50:39.000 to get dropped off into the happy hunting grounds. They're like, man, 1:50:39.200 --> 1:50:42.400 we're probably piste about the wolves that walked down there. 1:50:43.080 --> 1:50:46.120 But the wolves walked down they're gonna be tough. They're 1:50:46.160 --> 1:50:52.000 forged by fire man m hm. Disney. But you know, 1:50:52.080 --> 1:50:54.519 the gas bar brought up a good point to me, 1:50:55.000 --> 1:50:59.160 which is like it's all over, but the crime right 1:50:59.200 --> 1:51:04.479 there commings. So hunters should they just need to accept it, right, 1:51:04.520 --> 1:51:07.240 Like you've got to like accept it and kind of 1:51:07.280 --> 1:51:10.960 be part of the process. At this man, the worst 1:51:10.960 --> 1:51:14.680 thing you can do is the smoke pack of day philosophy. 1:51:15.080 --> 1:51:22.600 You know, tell you what, be a part of the 1:51:22.640 --> 1:51:27.320 conversation in a meaningful way. Yeah, there will be a 1:51:27.360 --> 1:51:29.400 lot of people that will get like, you know, there's 1:51:29.400 --> 1:51:32.679 some people that that it's to say, it's the crowd 1:51:32.720 --> 1:51:35.439 that quit waterfowl hunting when they had to stop using lead. 1:51:36.560 --> 1:51:43.240 There will be people. There will be people that that, uh, 1:51:43.479 --> 1:51:46.680 don't have a lot of gur and we'll like up 1:51:46.680 --> 1:51:49.920 it over. I'll be like I quit hunting by God 1:51:50.000 --> 1:51:52.439 when the wolves. And then there'll be people who are 1:51:52.439 --> 1:51:54.680 just who get after it and figure stuff out and 1:51:54.680 --> 1:51:58.960 they'll keep doing well. But I'm telling you, man, it'll 1:51:59.000 --> 1:52:03.120 be yeah, a shock to the system. Right. They eat 1:52:03.800 --> 1:52:07.240 seven pounds of meat a day, so just get a 1:52:07.280 --> 1:52:11.320 calculator out right, it's just a reality what hey, what 1:52:11.600 --> 1:52:15.400 is the uh? Is there an initial number that they've 1:52:15.400 --> 1:52:18.679 got a goal for? Well? No, and you know this 1:52:18.760 --> 1:52:20.760 is really where the meat and the potatoes if this 1:52:20.800 --> 1:52:24.360 plan comes together, and why sportsmen need to continuously engage 1:52:24.400 --> 1:52:28.200 themselves in this process, right, because there are questions about 1:52:29.080 --> 1:52:33.960 how many wolves will constitute a recovery objective where they 1:52:34.000 --> 1:52:38.679 will be reintroduced um. You know, all of these questions 1:52:38.680 --> 1:52:41.760 are going to be crafted um by the Commission over 1:52:41.800 --> 1:52:44.599 the course of the next three years. And my hope 1:52:44.640 --> 1:52:47.320 is that we as a sportsman community can engage in 1:52:47.360 --> 1:52:49.719 this rather than just throwing our suckers in the dirt 1:52:49.800 --> 1:52:51.880 and being upset about the fact that we lost at 1:52:51.920 --> 1:52:55.400 the ballot, and engage in the process to develop what 1:52:55.520 --> 1:52:58.639 could be the most thoughtful and well thought out planned. 1:52:58.720 --> 1:53:02.400 But we broke this discussion last year and the legislation 1:53:02.479 --> 1:53:05.680 we were trying to craft, and I've heard numbers as 1:53:05.720 --> 1:53:08.760 high as two hundred and fifty UM. I think from 1:53:08.760 --> 1:53:12.160 our perspective, we're looking at a closer a number closer 1:53:12.200 --> 1:53:16.280 to around fifty UM. The precedents in other states, of course, 1:53:16.439 --> 1:53:21.679 was ten packs or a hundred wolves. UM. Now when 1:53:21.680 --> 1:53:25.920 you over the lay the landscapes of Idaho in Montana 1:53:26.320 --> 1:53:29.200 versus you know, the western half of Colorado, I think 1:53:29.200 --> 1:53:33.519 it lends itself to a lower number. Something I got 1:53:33.520 --> 1:53:36.400 way more habitat here man, Yeah, exactly. And so but 1:53:36.439 --> 1:53:38.479 it doesn't matter because they'll say, here's the thing. It 1:53:38.479 --> 1:53:41.080 doesn't matter because they'll you'll agree on let's say you 1:53:41.080 --> 1:53:44.960 agree on a hundred hunter hunters, good number, everybody can 1:53:45.000 --> 1:53:48.719 live with a hundred. And then you'll get to hundred 1:53:49.080 --> 1:53:52.360 fifty two and someone will be like, Okay, we're gonna 1:53:52.400 --> 1:53:55.400 deal list and go to state management. And then you'll 1:53:55.479 --> 1:53:59.519 fight lawsuits for twenty years and then it just doesn't matter. 1:54:00.360 --> 1:54:03.280 That's the word. Yeah, it does not matter. It will 1:54:03.320 --> 1:54:07.080 never You'll never get it undone. It'll just be. It'll 1:54:07.080 --> 1:54:09.880 become like a thing that gets litigated to the point 1:54:09.960 --> 1:54:13.640 where it'll just it'll find its number. I mean, it 1:54:13.640 --> 1:54:16.599 took forever here, and it's so tenuous here. The history 1:54:16.640 --> 1:54:19.960 has indicated that. And unfortunately, whatever plan we come up 1:54:19.960 --> 1:54:25.000 with won't supersede. Uh. You know, federal statutes under es 1:54:25.120 --> 1:54:28.519 a right and so our our plan will continuously play 1:54:28.600 --> 1:54:32.480 second fiddle to the ongoing national es a discussion around 1:54:32.560 --> 1:54:37.240 listing and delisting. And it's an unfortunate reality because, as 1:54:37.280 --> 1:54:40.360 you mentioned, Steve, they're on their way here. We're gonna 1:54:40.440 --> 1:54:44.800 have a population of wolves in Colorado in the next 1:54:44.840 --> 1:54:48.240 couple of years before any of this is implemented. You 1:54:48.240 --> 1:54:51.440 know what cracks me about the like the winey ass, 1:54:52.240 --> 1:54:56.480 the wolf protection crowd is that you know, like you 1:54:56.520 --> 1:55:00.920 look at Wisconsin right where they hit recovery objective, you 1:55:00.960 --> 1:55:04.280 know eons ago they get way over recovery objective. But 1:55:04.320 --> 1:55:05.920 then they have a hunt and they set a quota 1:55:06.000 --> 1:55:08.480 and they go over to quota and everybody's all up 1:55:08.520 --> 1:55:11.080 stem like home, when did you people start caring about quotas? 1:55:12.320 --> 1:55:14.720 You never cared about the recovery objective number? That like 1:55:14.880 --> 1:55:18.200 became like a completely like you never cared about surpassing that. 1:55:18.240 --> 1:55:19.440 But all of a sudden they go over a hunt 1:55:19.520 --> 1:55:21.880 quote and everybody acts like they're married to these numbers. 1:55:21.880 --> 1:55:24.720 So you don't care about the numbers? Yeah, like what 1:55:24.880 --> 1:55:29.120 just unfolded? It was it Wisconsin where they but I'm like, 1:55:29.320 --> 1:55:32.280 they went way over. But you guys have we've been 1:55:32.360 --> 1:55:37.280 over the quota that you liked for twenty years, right, 1:55:37.760 --> 1:55:40.400 and like, so don't act like all of a sudden, 1:55:40.400 --> 1:55:42.320 like you really care about all the numbers being right 1:55:42.320 --> 1:55:44.000 becase you don't give a about they only care about 1:55:44.000 --> 1:55:47.520 certain numbers. It's it's indefensible too, because you also have 1:55:47.600 --> 1:55:50.720 to be like, you know, you guys really screwed up 1:55:50.760 --> 1:55:55.840 because all the other times wildlife science, wildlife management, Uh, 1:55:56.040 --> 1:56:01.200 deals in perfect scenarios, there are normal mistakes when it's 1:56:01.240 --> 1:56:04.440 done right, you know, when you're dealing with wild animals 1:56:04.720 --> 1:56:09.800 and social science at the same time. Kills me. Which 1:56:09.880 --> 1:56:13.400 is why all these discussions need to take place within 1:56:14.200 --> 1:56:17.520 the state game and phish agencies. Right, We've seen an 1:56:17.520 --> 1:56:20.480 onslaught of legislation all throughout the Rocky Mountain West this 1:56:20.560 --> 1:56:23.160 year trying to address specific pieces not just you know, 1:56:23.320 --> 1:56:26.040 well outside of the scope of wolf free introduction, but 1:56:26.160 --> 1:56:29.839 trying to to manage hunting and angling as a sport 1:56:30.000 --> 1:56:34.560 wildlife populations in general through through legislation. And I just 1:56:34.640 --> 1:56:38.240 do not find it to be a proper venue for 1:56:38.320 --> 1:56:41.760 wildlife management discussions that you know, those discussions need to 1:56:41.760 --> 1:56:45.919 be led by wildlife professionals, founded on the best available 1:56:45.920 --> 1:56:49.000 science at the time. Sure, a social element needs to 1:56:49.000 --> 1:56:51.320 be incorporated in it. And I don't mean to undermine 1:56:51.440 --> 1:56:56.280 or or discredit the importance of that, but uh, it's 1:56:56.280 --> 1:56:59.760 been my experience that the legislature has not always yielded 1:56:59.760 --> 1:57:03.560 the the best wildlife management strategies or policies. Oh, it's 1:57:03.600 --> 1:57:06.680 the same thing. The State of Montana is just like 1:57:07.240 --> 1:57:09.400 makes you want to throw up right now. It's like 1:57:09.560 --> 1:57:18.480 very clear that wildlife is a vehicle for vendetta, Like 1:57:18.520 --> 1:57:20.040 you're telling me you can look me in the eye 1:57:20.080 --> 1:57:23.720 and say that this legislation is for animals somehow or 1:57:23.800 --> 1:57:28.440 is this for who you're talking to, Like it's it's 1:57:28.440 --> 1:57:31.800 a people thing, not an animal thing. And you know, look, 1:57:31.800 --> 1:57:35.120 there there are some scenarios where it's been beneficial to write, 1:57:35.160 --> 1:57:39.880 particularly on funding. We've seen it be advantageous in Pennsylvania 1:57:39.920 --> 1:57:42.000 and some of the Eastern states on Sunday hunting and 1:57:42.040 --> 1:57:44.880 blue laws. And so I don't mean to demonize it 1:57:44.920 --> 1:57:48.320 across the board, um, because there have been occasions where 1:57:48.320 --> 1:57:53.360 it's been beneficially, but those are like those are those 1:57:53.400 --> 1:57:58.720 are social that's like social legislation, it's not like wildlife management. 1:58:00.520 --> 1:58:04.640 That's good point. Uh, this is a tangent to this. 1:58:04.760 --> 1:58:07.520 But I was looking at, you know, lawsuits to undo 1:58:07.600 --> 1:58:10.320 the Bernhardt's deal liisting. I'm gonna wind up missing that 1:58:10.360 --> 1:58:12.600 guy enough and and and more than a handful of ways, 1:58:12.920 --> 1:58:18.560 but lawsuits looking to undo the the delisting. Now that 1:58:18.600 --> 1:58:22.080 we've hit recovery objectives and how you always see humane 1:58:22.120 --> 1:58:24.760 society pop up. It's funny that because they do the 1:58:24.840 --> 1:58:28.320 nice stuff for dogs. People never realize that it's one 1:58:28.320 --> 1:58:31.960 of the most powerful anti hunting, anti anti trapping groups 1:58:31.960 --> 1:58:33.800 out there, like far and away there. Day I was 1:58:33.800 --> 1:58:36.640 at Murdocks, like Murdock's Ranch supply, you know what, you're 1:58:36.680 --> 1:58:37.760 like doing the thing and they ask you if you 1:58:37.800 --> 1:58:41.520 want to donate something. At Murdocks, they ask if you 1:58:41.560 --> 1:58:44.920 want to donate the Humane Society. Man we're driving, which 1:58:44.920 --> 1:58:46.520 is like a weird like you're talking to like a 1:58:46.600 --> 1:58:48.840 ranch community, whether they want to donate to the leading 1:58:48.880 --> 1:58:52.760 animal rights like the leading animal rights organization of the country. 1:58:53.160 --> 1:58:55.120 I thought, like, I think, like someone that kind of 1:58:55.240 --> 1:58:57.600 slipped by someone, we're not about bringing it up with 1:58:57.640 --> 1:59:00.080 the cashier. We're driving south to town and there's of 1:59:00.120 --> 1:59:05.320 those anti trapping billboards out that way, and my kids 1:59:05.320 --> 1:59:07.920 are like, what what is that. I'm like, you know, 1:59:08.320 --> 1:59:15.000 some people don't like it. Yeah, they masquerade as dog helpers. Hey, Steve, 1:59:15.160 --> 1:59:21.240 I did bring it up at Murdochs. And you know, 1:59:21.760 --> 1:59:24.800 it's interesting because she said, yeah, it's like a very 1:59:24.920 --> 1:59:29.320 hot topic because everybody in there is like, what this 1:59:29.400 --> 1:59:33.760 doesn't make any sense, and um, it's like the local 1:59:34.920 --> 1:59:37.520 Humane Society, which is like a different thing than the 1:59:37.720 --> 1:59:41.960 H S U S. Is that right? Yeah, like they're 1:59:41.960 --> 1:59:48.040 not connected. I think I think that there is a connection. Man. 1:59:50.160 --> 1:59:52.280 Well no, because I don't think that the owners of 1:59:52.360 --> 1:59:55.480 Murdocks and all the employees there would allow that. You 1:59:55.560 --> 2:00:01.200 need to get your little producer cap on it, colonel 2:00:01.360 --> 2:00:07.120 sniff it out. Alright, gas Bar, Um, you were born 2:00:07.160 --> 2:00:10.440 in the US? I was Yeah, were you? I'm asking? 2:00:10.480 --> 2:00:14.040 Were you? Yeah? Yeah, gas Bar, Para Cone. I just 2:00:14.080 --> 2:00:18.400 feel like, uh, you know, I don't know Silian namesake? 2:00:18.640 --> 2:00:22.760 Is it Sicilian? Yeah? That's my people. I know, I 2:00:22.840 --> 2:00:27.360 know we're good people. Um, we're your are you were 2:00:27.360 --> 2:00:30.000 your were your folks from Sicily? Are you guys been 2:00:30.040 --> 2:00:32.400 in the US for a long time? Yeah, third generation 2:00:33.120 --> 2:00:35.800 American and it's a little throwback name. Man, gas Bar, 2:00:35.880 --> 2:00:40.600 you're the only gas Bar I know. Well, easy to remember, 2:00:41.400 --> 2:00:44.200 I said of my grandfather. I am as well. Okay, 2:00:44.760 --> 2:00:46.800 thanks for coming out and explain this wolf deal man. 2:00:46.840 --> 2:00:48.280 You'll have to come back a whole bunch and keep 2:00:48.320 --> 2:00:51.040 us up to speed on it. Be happy to thanks 2:00:51.080 --> 2:00:55.600 for the time, guys. I'm not totally happy. I mean, 2:00:55.640 --> 2:00:58.480 you did a great job. I just like, I just man, 2:00:58.840 --> 2:01:03.480 stuff kind of you got some lingering questions. No, no questions, 2:01:03.600 --> 2:01:06.240 I just just something about it. I don't like it. 2:01:07.080 --> 2:01:08.400 I don't like I wish they would have done it. 2:01:08.400 --> 2:01:11.400 I wish they would have done it like this around 2:01:11.440 --> 2:01:13.800 as everybody what their opinion about it is. You know 2:01:13.840 --> 2:01:17.800 what's interesting that, uh, you guys can pull off culling 2:01:17.840 --> 2:01:21.000 all those geese out of the parks in Denver and 2:01:21.080 --> 2:01:26.760 feeding them to the food shelters. Uh huh without putting 2:01:26.760 --> 2:01:31.120 that up for a public vote. Yeah, there's a bit 2:01:31.160 --> 2:01:34.440 of duplicity in some of the rags on the books. 2:01:34.560 --> 2:01:38.800 I would be denying if I said otherwise. Yeah, the voting, 2:01:38.880 --> 2:01:41.520 the voting on this stuff. I know this will never happen. 2:01:41.520 --> 2:01:44.560 I mean, just to be ridiculous, to demonstrate ridiculousness. Will 2:01:44.600 --> 2:01:46.520 it be like some day they'll be like, we're gonna 2:01:46.560 --> 2:01:47.960 have a vote, and we're gonna ask you everyone in 2:01:48.000 --> 2:01:51.200 the state. Should the pheasant limit be two or three? 2:01:52.000 --> 2:01:55.960 That's the way it's going. I mean, well, and you know, 2:01:56.800 --> 2:02:01.000 we have allocation questions before the legislature here. Now there's 2:02:01.000 --> 2:02:05.040 a bill out there trying to limit the nonresident tags available. 2:02:05.720 --> 2:02:09.400 And uh, you know, again, we periodically as a wildlife 2:02:09.400 --> 2:02:12.040 Commission have gone back and taken a look at season 2:02:12.080 --> 2:02:16.200 structures and and license allocation distribution between residents and nonresidents, 2:02:16.200 --> 2:02:19.520 and you know, those take a couple of years there 2:02:19.600 --> 2:02:22.600 among the more contentious conversations that occur in the state. 2:02:23.200 --> 2:02:26.360 And you know, here we have kind of just a blanket, 2:02:26.480 --> 2:02:30.680 one size fits all approach um that would uh set 2:02:30.680 --> 2:02:36.160 in statute, uh that distribution requirement, and it's drawn uh 2:02:36.520 --> 2:02:39.640 confrontation on on every side of the discussion, right, which 2:02:39.680 --> 2:02:43.320 I think just underscores that the venue is not suitable 2:02:43.360 --> 2:02:47.560 for those type of conversations. That we got one for 2:02:48.120 --> 2:02:51.760 extending wolf season here in Montana, right, And it's like 2:02:51.800 --> 2:02:55.760 you talked to a public a vote. Well, no, this 2:02:55.840 --> 2:03:02.360 was some legislation, and it's just just funny, right because 2:03:02.360 --> 2:03:06.640 they're like, uh, these folks who introduced this legislation, they 2:03:06.680 --> 2:03:12.040 don't understand how bad hunters are at killing wolves, and 2:03:12.440 --> 2:03:15.880 it's like, yeah, we can, we can make wolf hunting 2:03:15.920 --> 2:03:20.600 season year round. The people who kill wolves are trappers, 2:03:20.960 --> 2:03:22.600 but they only want to do it when furs good. 2:03:23.520 --> 2:03:27.200 It's like, you know, the the biological basis is not there, 2:03:27.200 --> 2:03:31.640 it's the social basis that is the point. Right. Well, 2:03:31.680 --> 2:03:34.560 and like when they opened up Idaho's wolf harvest for 2:03:34.600 --> 2:03:36.360 the first time. You know, I think they gave out 2:03:36.360 --> 2:03:38.440 something like your listeners may tell me I'm way off 2:03:38.480 --> 2:03:41.720 on this number, but you know it was several thousand tags, right, 2:03:42.320 --> 2:03:44.600 and they ended up killing like a hundred and thirty 2:03:44.680 --> 2:03:46.920 or a hundred and forty of them, which was like 2:03:47.000 --> 2:03:51.480 the best hunting season I think Idaho had right right, 2:03:51.520 --> 2:03:54.560 Like when she dropped off the table after that once 2:03:54.600 --> 2:03:57.400 the wolves were like, oh, getting shot at now, trying 2:03:57.400 --> 2:03:59.880 to move off the road. But with just under a 2:04:00.040 --> 2:04:02.920 thousand wolves on the landscape, you would expect that hunter 2:04:03.000 --> 2:04:06.880 harvest uh percentage to be a bit higher than that. Yeah, 2:04:07.040 --> 2:04:10.040 it's a testament to the difficulty of the hunter harvest 2:04:10.040 --> 2:04:14.120 approach and management. All right, man, thanks a lot, Thank you. 2:04:14.560 --> 2:04:17.120 I'm back looking at this picture of Cal. Now, my god, 2:04:21.080 --> 2:04:26.440 take it easy, buddy, I appreciate it. To wrap up, Cal, 2:04:26.720 --> 2:04:32.040 plug your deal. Oh so, I guess the day after 2:04:33.280 --> 2:04:39.120 this podcast will be the Louisiana episode of Cal in 2:04:39.160 --> 2:04:41.880 the Field. Cal's we can reviewed my my podcast, but 2:04:42.400 --> 2:04:45.920 something you can see visually on our meat eat or 2:04:46.000 --> 2:04:52.320 YouTube channel. So the first episode was Trapping Live Trapping 2:04:52.320 --> 2:04:54.560 grizzly bears with Idaho Fishing game. If you want to 2:04:54.560 --> 2:04:59.120 see some if you want to see some amazing grizzly 2:04:59.640 --> 2:05:06.800 bear footage that it's good. It is good, big grizzly 2:05:07.080 --> 2:05:09.120 in a trap and they work it up and process 2:05:09.200 --> 2:05:14.560 it and and eventually let it go. And yeah, it's 2:05:14.560 --> 2:05:18.200 like that. It's incredible good example, like the internal frustrations 2:05:18.480 --> 2:05:21.160 of being out on something like that. There's just like 2:05:21.200 --> 2:05:25.480 an overwhelming amount of cool stuff happening and an endless 2:05:25.520 --> 2:05:28.080 amount of things we could talk about, and it's like, 2:05:28.160 --> 2:05:31.800 but here's like the most concise version that we could 2:05:32.000 --> 2:05:34.840 get out to you. That was episode number one, which 2:05:34.880 --> 2:05:38.080 is tearing it up on YouTube. Are been sitting there? 2:05:38.720 --> 2:05:44.000 And episode two is Idaho Fisheries. We're talking about getting 2:05:44.040 --> 2:05:47.040 rewarded for catching rainbow trout, which is is a goofy 2:05:47.080 --> 2:05:51.520 deal but like bonny hunting rainbows. Hunting rainbows yea yeah, 2:05:51.600 --> 2:05:54.240 on the South Fork of the Snakes. Another fun one. 2:05:54.400 --> 2:06:01.080 And then Louisiana, Uh, we do all or we fish 2:06:01.280 --> 2:06:04.160 for this really cool species called Atlantic triple tale, which 2:06:04.200 --> 2:06:07.240 is a giant perch and super tasty fish, and you 2:06:07.320 --> 2:06:11.080 learn about the citizens science going on with a fish 2:06:11.120 --> 2:06:12.800 that people have been catching in the Gulf of Mexico 2:06:12.920 --> 2:06:19.840 forever but only got on regulations on gold fisheries regulations 2:06:19.840 --> 2:06:22.440 within like the last five years. That really surprised me 2:06:22.480 --> 2:06:27.960 because it's such a highly esteemed eating fish, yes, and 2:06:28.240 --> 2:06:31.240 such a prized sport fish, but people who like to 2:06:31.280 --> 2:06:33.120 catch it. It surprised me there's just one of those 2:06:33.120 --> 2:06:36.680 fish like oh yeah, they're always there, yeah, never never 2:06:36.720 --> 2:06:40.040 mind those things. I think it's because there's no like 2:06:40.200 --> 2:06:46.400 specific commercial task, like they only show up as bycatch 2:06:46.560 --> 2:06:49.480 right bycatch, some folks target them, but you really got 2:06:49.480 --> 2:06:53.200 to target them with with hooking line, so you know, 2:06:53.240 --> 2:06:55.360 it's like is it worth people's time to go after 2:06:55.440 --> 2:06:58.000 him in a in a market sense. And I think 2:06:58.000 --> 2:07:00.400 it's just kind of an interesting thing that even now, 2:07:01.000 --> 2:07:05.040 it's like there's so much life in the ocean that 2:07:05.960 --> 2:07:08.960 we're still getting around to like properly identifying, doing some 2:07:09.040 --> 2:07:11.000 real I mean, I talked to the one person who's 2:07:11.040 --> 2:07:15.880 really researched Triple Tale. It's got Jim Frank's He's awesome. Um, 2:07:16.200 --> 2:07:18.200 there's two fish in this world that I want to 2:07:18.200 --> 2:07:20.560 catch that I've never caught in Triple Tales. One of 2:07:20.600 --> 2:07:23.040 them the other one I came. I never it's like 2:07:23.080 --> 2:07:25.040 a weird mental problem. I can't remember, but I always 2:07:25.080 --> 2:07:26.600 have to ask Ghanni, Ny, what was the other fish? 2:07:26.640 --> 2:07:31.440 I want to catch real bad? Oh, there's three fish 2:07:31.480 --> 2:07:33.360 I want to catch real bad. You're gonna have to 2:07:33.360 --> 2:07:35.880 give me just a little bit of a hint. It 2:07:35.880 --> 2:07:40.040 looks like a little shark, but it's not kobia. Yeah 2:07:40.280 --> 2:07:43.320 they're good man, a triple tail and a kobia and 2:07:43.320 --> 2:07:46.920 then a she fish. Oh yeah, I'm must fish want 2:07:46.920 --> 2:07:53.480 to be too? Yeah yeah, and then we yeah, go 2:07:53.600 --> 2:07:57.320 all over Louisiana, hunt hogs, hunt gallon yule, which is 2:07:57.560 --> 2:08:01.480 uh a marsh hand and just look at the effects 2:08:01.480 --> 2:08:07.960 of salt water intrusion and and erosion in Louisiana. And yeah, 2:08:07.960 --> 2:08:13.880 super wild, fun trip to Louisiana. So when you're shooting 2:08:13.920 --> 2:08:15.800 at the pig, it looks sounds like you're raiding a 2:08:16.200 --> 2:08:20.560 m you're raiding a target, Like you're raiding a target 2:08:21.200 --> 2:08:24.080 out of them, like pretty tight work with a shotgun 2:08:24.320 --> 2:08:30.280 and thick brush. Oh yeah, you know. The idea is 2:08:30.360 --> 2:08:37.160 to go in without any judgment and experience things the 2:08:37.200 --> 2:08:41.840 way people experience them in their places. And yeah, I 2:08:41.920 --> 2:08:44.800 felt a little down. It's a little odd being like 2:08:45.280 --> 2:08:50.040 so loaded shotgun bow, the boat boats under underpower, which 2:08:50.080 --> 2:08:54.720 is storm in there and you're just gonna plow me 2:08:54.800 --> 2:08:58.560 into a bunch of bushes. And that's how we're hunting hogs. 2:08:58.600 --> 2:09:03.000 But yeah, it looks like it's like that. It's like 2:09:03.040 --> 2:09:07.200 apocalypse now when the tiger comes. Yeah, just like firing 2:09:07.240 --> 2:09:08.920 into some grass. I mean you can see what you 2:09:08.920 --> 2:09:09.960 were doing. I'm not trying to make it like it 2:09:10.000 --> 2:09:12.560 was unsafe, but it's just it's it's a it's a 2:09:12.560 --> 2:09:18.240 good clip. Uh but yeah, you know, trying to take 2:09:18.280 --> 2:09:22.240 a look at some different conservation issues. See how folks 2:09:22.680 --> 2:09:27.000 you know, are exploring their spaces as they change over 2:09:27.040 --> 2:09:30.320 time and different parts of the world. And it's been 2:09:30.840 --> 2:09:35.320 super fun and and always very interesting. So good work 2:09:35.360 --> 2:09:38.280 everybody check it out now. How I feel like if 2:09:38.280 --> 2:09:41.120 you wanted to find it, like how people actually find stuff, 2:09:41.200 --> 2:09:46.560 you'd go cal in the field into your YouTube search engine. 2:09:47.160 --> 2:09:51.120 Would be real easy, call in the field, yep. Start with. 2:09:51.600 --> 2:09:53.120 A smart thing to do would be go to YouTube 2:09:53.120 --> 2:09:56.080 search meat meat eater and hit that subscribe button. Who 2:09:56.120 --> 2:10:04.680 fill out Phil, Thanks, thank you all right, buddy. Thanks 2:10:04.720 --> 2:10:06.720 tuning in. We got man, do you a lot of 2:10:06.760 --> 2:10:09.240 tid landing things we didn't talk about but we'll talk 2:10:09.280 --> 2:10:12.480 about him later, including yeah, I'm gonna do it like 2:10:12.480 --> 2:10:16.120 how they do it in real shows man, like when 2:10:16.120 --> 2:10:18.960 you do a teaser next week on I don't know 2:10:18.960 --> 2:10:24.200 about it'll be next week, but including um, same sex 2:10:24.320 --> 2:10:31.880 relationships and critters. I was waiting for Korean's like musical outra. 2:10:33.160 --> 2:10:50.160 Thanks everybody,