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Speaker 1: This is me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely

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Speaker 1: bug bitten in my case underwear. Listening to Hunt podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators

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Speaker 1: are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download

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Speaker 1: the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store.

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Speaker 1: Nor where you stand with on X. All right, everybody,

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Speaker 1: joannest there's a note from your honest in the notes

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Speaker 1: says a note, can we please introduce all guests at

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the podcast? This is Ben Janni's for years,

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Speaker 1: for years. All that man wants Yanni. I like to

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Speaker 1: have the suspense. I don't introduce him because I like

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Speaker 1: to create a suspense because I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people just listen because they're like one of Brody's there, right, Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: I just want you to know that, uh, there's another

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Speaker 1: man sort of sitting on my shoulders that's talking to

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Speaker 1: my ear all the time as you're not introducing the guests,

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Speaker 1: and you can probably guess who that is. It's the

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Speaker 1: same man that thinks you should not heat birthing tubs

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Speaker 1: with su vied devices. Correct your father? Correct? Do you

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Speaker 1: like in movies? Do you like if if you're watching

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Speaker 1: the movie, do you want to know right when the

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Speaker 1: movie starts, what's gonna happen? No, yeah, I can tell

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Speaker 1: you who would though. It would be my kids. We've

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Speaker 1: recently started to introduce them to uh The Star Wars,

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Speaker 1: and so we watched four or five six over the

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Speaker 1: last two weeks. And they cannot take it if they

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Speaker 1: get that feeling of anticipation, just a little teeny teeny bit.

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Speaker 1: They cannot stand it that they know something is about

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Speaker 1: to happen and they don't know what it is. When

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Speaker 1: you know, after we met, you know, the after we met.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if he talks about this though. Anyways.

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Speaker 1: I was watching the Where the Red Fern Grows and

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Speaker 1: then uh Old Yeller with my kids, and before we

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Speaker 1: got into it, I told him, listen, these dogs. You know,

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Speaker 1: the dog dies in the end, right. I just want

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Speaker 1: you to know this up top, so because I knew

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Speaker 1: that'd be upsetting to him. So watching the movie, they're

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Speaker 1: just enthralled. They love those movies. They get to the

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Speaker 1: end and I'm thinking, well, now that they're sucked into

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Speaker 1: the plot, they will, you know, stick it out now

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Speaker 1: that they know because they're sold you know, engrossed in

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Speaker 1: the story, but it gets up where you kind of

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Speaker 1: smell what's gonna happen, that the dog is gonna die,

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Speaker 1: and they just they want to turn it off and

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Speaker 1: walk out of the room. That I thought for sure

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Speaker 1: they would be like, wow, what the hell, it's tough

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Speaker 1: it out, But now they're like, oh, really he's gonna

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Speaker 1: die now, Okay, click done. I don't think they want

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Speaker 1: to deal with the emotional trauma. I'll tell you right now,

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Speaker 1: I'm right there with him. Now. When when when my

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Speaker 1: kid senses something coming up on a movie he doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to watch, He plugs his ears and runs out

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Speaker 1: of the room. No, he doesn't want you to want

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Speaker 1: to hear it, see it nothing. He's like, my god,

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Speaker 1: Luke Skywalker is gonna keep his arm in my mind.

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Speaker 1: And the old yellow dog. Uh okay, Yanni introduced everybody.

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Speaker 1: Then since since you know the give us this one

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Speaker 1: goes out with Yanni's dad. Oh jeez, all right, who

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Speaker 1: all do we have here? Brody Anderson? Years ago in

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Speaker 1: old Colorado, it's maybe twenty years ago, dude, it's twenty

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Speaker 1: I got news for you, Halen from the Great State

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Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania, Brodie. Understand, all right, you know I'm dealing cards.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna pretend like John is uh right here

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Speaker 1: on my right hand side, so I'm gonna continue to

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Speaker 1: deal cards. They're Stephen Ronnella at the head of the table,

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Speaker 1: Ryan Callahan's yellow, Karin Snyder Schneider, Schneider, I am a Schneider,

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Speaker 1: you like the al right, uh Phil or lovely podcast engineer.

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Speaker 1: And then the esteemed author John MoU Allen, who we

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Speaker 1: had on I guess three years ago or so to

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Speaker 1: discuss his book The Wild Ones. Yes, nailed it was Bay.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna discuss Oh no, let's not tell him what

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Speaker 1: which book we're gonna discuss. Do like a little suspense

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Speaker 1: a little bit. It just Yanni's dad wants to know

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Speaker 1: who's there, but he doesn't want to know. Why are

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Speaker 1: we leaving out the mystery guests for now? Yeah, all right,

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Speaker 1: just to keep yann his dad at the edge and see,

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Speaker 1: just just keep him irritated so there is a little

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Speaker 1: surprise for people coming later on. I just got home

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Speaker 1: last night from Mexico. We went down for spring break.

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Speaker 1: We go every year we go to Yeah, I guess

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Speaker 1: I could say every year now because for a lot

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Speaker 1: of years we've done this. We go down to East Cape,

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Speaker 1: so southern Baja Peninsula and fish and just sit on

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Speaker 1: the beach and stuff. It was fun. But I almost

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Speaker 1: got I'm almost not here. The reason I bring this

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Speaker 1: up because you now, right, you have to show that

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Speaker 1: you haven't had COVID to get on a plane. And

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Speaker 1: they got this big testing facility set up at the

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Speaker 1: airport Baha. It's like a big tent. You get results

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Speaker 1: in thirty minutes. Uh. The tricky part is, you know

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Speaker 1: there's false positives and stuff from the thing. So it's

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Speaker 1: little unnerving. If you have a family of five, like you're,

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Speaker 1: you feel like you're rolling the damn dice. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you and you've had it, Well, that's the trouble. So

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Speaker 1: I had my my paperwork from the health department, the

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Speaker 1: county Health department, and I had my paper all I

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Speaker 1: had a official stamp on it, official signature on it,

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Speaker 1: and it said like what day you know, whatever, what

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Speaker 1: day you had it, and this and that, and it

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Speaker 1: says you can resume normal activities. In my case, you

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Speaker 1: can resume more normal activities January. Um. But Delta, who

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Speaker 1: I'm normally a fan of uh won't accept it, And

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Speaker 1: they said, or you need a letter saying that you're

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Speaker 1: cleared for travel, And I'm like, but it says right here,

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Speaker 1: I can resume normal activities in January. Nowhere can you

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Speaker 1: find point to me a website that says that spells

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Speaker 1: out that requirement that leveling isn't normal activity. I'm not

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Speaker 1: putting this on you, Brody. I just mean, like, no

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Speaker 1: one could point. So it's Sunday, I can't get hold

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Speaker 1: of me. You call, you call your doctor's office, and

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Speaker 1: it'll be like, you know, if it's an emergency, call whatever,

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Speaker 1: and in the fight's gonna leave. My whole family now

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Speaker 1: has their tests. So I go down, I go to

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Speaker 1: the tent and and you know, it's my faults. I

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Speaker 1: don't speak Spanish, so I'm not I'm not blaming anybody.

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Speaker 1: It's like, I'm not blaming anyone but myself. But it's

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Speaker 1: very hard to convey my concerns. And I'm going to

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Speaker 1: do the rapid test. And the thing is once you've

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Speaker 1: had it, like you can get these residual positives. So

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Speaker 1: I take the test and be like, I'm either going

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Speaker 1: to be in Mexico for a couple of weeks fishing, yeah,

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Speaker 1: minus my family or and thankfully it came back negative

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Speaker 1: and I was able to get on the damn plane.

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Speaker 1: So you were trying to say, like, listen, I need

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Speaker 1: a test, but here's my unique situation, and they're like,

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Speaker 1: you need a test or you don't need I was like,

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Speaker 1: what do you think? What like, what's your take on

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Speaker 1: this situation? You know, can you like barely swab my nose?

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Speaker 1: You know? And they man, they were just it was

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Speaker 1: very binary, oh for sure, but just gets hilarious because

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Speaker 1: you could suck out the language part. Put you on

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Speaker 1: any place in the planet in that situation, and I

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Speaker 1: guarantee that person is gonna be like, bro, I'm not

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Speaker 1: here to think about your situation. I'm here to swab

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Speaker 1: you or not. I want to know if it was

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Speaker 1: the family upset or were they just ready to leave

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Speaker 1: you there? Uh yeah, I don't know. It wasn't like that.

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Speaker 1: What the kids were that they get they get a

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Speaker 1: little uh, they get a little anxious about stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'll be like whenever see each other again.

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Speaker 1: They they were getting anxious, especially the oldest one. He

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Speaker 1: kind of he was tracking what was he was tracking

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Speaker 1: what was going on and was not liking what he's hearing.

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Speaker 1: He's not quite old enough to be like, listen, I

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Speaker 1: have a boarding routine, and I just need to get

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Speaker 1: into my routine. You deal with you, Yanni. Remember how

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Speaker 1: I was telling you about all about um this thing

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Speaker 1: in Germany that that I I was that I didn't

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Speaker 1: really know what I was talking about, but I had heard.

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Speaker 1: I had heard that in Germany you put your dog

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Speaker 1: in a barrel with a raccoon and they du get out.

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Speaker 1: Are you remembering this? That's right? Okay, well the guy

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Speaker 1: and I said, and I got around equating this to NAVDA,

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Speaker 1: which is the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association of

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Speaker 1: which my friend Ronnie is you know, he's always been

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Speaker 1: very involved there. Um and and the president. I remember,

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Speaker 1: I just want to sing clear my name. I remembering.

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Speaker 1: I remember being a little incredulous, little skeptical of your statement. Well, oh,

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Speaker 1: i'd heard this German thing a bunch for me. No,

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Speaker 1: not from you. I don't want to get into how

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Speaker 1: I know about it, but I know about it, and

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Speaker 1: I know what's here's listen, typically associated with drop stars. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, I don't know what that is. It's

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Speaker 1: one of those dogs. It's like a shade of a

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Speaker 1: hair of a difference between a German short haired pointer Navidad.

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Speaker 1: This is Ryan Callahan. You can come on after me

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Speaker 1: for this statement, my apology, and then you come with him.

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Speaker 1: You guys got to back up about why you put

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Speaker 1: your dog in a barrel with it, Pam. It's called

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Speaker 1: the sharpness like a barrel better a sharpness test here.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get into it like I didn't

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Speaker 1: make this up. I don't wake up one day and

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Speaker 1: make up there's such a thing to fight. I believe

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Speaker 1: it's something people would do to Why would they do

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Speaker 1: it though? That's why I'm saying. They call it like that.

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Speaker 1: He's got them these that he's blood. He got sharpness,

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Speaker 1: sharpness which is like a which is a which is

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Speaker 1: a soft term for having a lot of gird. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you don't want spirit, you want your coon dog running

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Speaker 1: away from a raccoon. It's just a way to test

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Speaker 1: like that. That dog is the high test fighter. Yeah, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I did not Ronnie. Ronnie had explained to us that

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Speaker 1: historically when they hunted farms game farms in Europe, they

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Speaker 1: wanted their upland bird dogs if they came upon a

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Speaker 1: vermin to kill it. Well, he's coming on the show

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Speaker 1: pretty soon. Can you remember that Ranny could talk about

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Speaker 1: this whole thing, because he's got me all in trump, possums, raccoons, skunks,

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Speaker 1: egg eaten things, feral cats, anyhow, he were it in.

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Speaker 1: He's fired up, very friendly. David Trehan Tryan Treyhan, President, President,

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Speaker 1: North American Versaal Hunting Dog Association, wants us to know

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Speaker 1: that this sort of thing, he said, I made what

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Speaker 1: sounded like a vague, factually incorrect reference to the sharpness

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Speaker 1: test used in some German testing systems that are unrelated

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Speaker 1: in NAVDA, And he doesn't know where I'm getting this

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Speaker 1: whole barrels with the raccoon thing anyway. So he's like,

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Speaker 1: you got that wrong, and then you got the fact

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Speaker 1: that this has something to do with NAVEDA wrong. Says

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Speaker 1: it's neither condoned by NAVDA, nor, to the best of

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Speaker 1: my knowledge, practiced by any of our members. We're concerned

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Speaker 1: that listeners who are unfamiliar with NAVDA, our goals and

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Speaker 1: our mission might come away from that discussion thinking that

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Speaker 1: has done at all, or worse, thinking that it's common

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Speaker 1: practice and that would be truly unfortunate. And he goes

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Speaker 1: on to say they have eighty five chapters, ten thousand men, birds,

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Speaker 1: US and Canada. And although some aspects of our testing

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Speaker 1: system are based loosely on those used in Germany, NAVI

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Speaker 1: does not evaluate dogs performance related the hunting mammals of

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Speaker 1: any species. Rather, we focus exclusively on upland and waterfowl hunting.

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Speaker 1: And they are dedicated to treating all animals, including dogs

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Speaker 1: and game, with respect and dignity. So remember and remember

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Speaker 1: that show Happy Days. Fonzie was he was he wasn't

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Speaker 1: able to say wrong. He'd be like, I was ru Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I was wrong, Like I was wrong. Hey,

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Speaker 1: you corrected it, but you know that was wrong. I

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Speaker 1: should still a little bit. It's not fair. I was wrong. Okayky,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell them about the moss balls. Oh boy, m okay.

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Speaker 1: So apparently if you're an aquarium enthusiast, you buy these

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Speaker 1: moss balls to drop in your aquarium tank. Um. And

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Speaker 1: this is something that's distributed through like all these national

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Speaker 1: pet store chains. And it was found that there are

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Speaker 1: some zebra muscles inside moss balls. Zebra muscles proliferate at

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Speaker 1: a high higher rate. They are are bad for native ecosystems.

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Speaker 1: Is a non native species like like transforming, like what

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Speaker 1: zebra muscles in the Great Lakes. If if, if you're

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Speaker 1: worried about wolves in Colorado, you should be worried about

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Speaker 1: zebra muscles in your neck of the woods. But there

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Speaker 1: are Great Lates zebra muscles sympathizers. Yeah, Okay, here's one scenario.

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Speaker 1: With all to respect, there are, yeah, but the Great Lakes.

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Speaker 1: So they're like an experimental aquarium anyway, It's like it's

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Speaker 1: already all made. Never mind, go ahead, I'm staying out.

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Speaker 1: I'm done. I'm done. I'm gonna talk about this rabbit fever.

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Speaker 1: Deal with this little girl. That's it. Um muscles, Right,

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Speaker 1: they filter feed. They eat zo plankton and phytoplankton. So

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Speaker 1: in systems where we see maybe just dirty water, that

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Speaker 1: can oftentimes be a shipload of food that all of

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Speaker 1: our fish, including game fish, when they're at a very

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Speaker 1: young age, they depend on that zo plankton phytoplankton to

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Speaker 1: get large enough to where they can then start being

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Speaker 1: more fun fish to catch. If you're just worried about

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Speaker 1: game species, right, um what zebra muscles can do is

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Speaker 1: they proliferate so heavily. They can clean a system so

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Speaker 1: much to where that water is crystal clear and you're like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, how pretty the lake is. Must be

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Speaker 1: must be good, must be good talking, but it can

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Speaker 1: be very very scarce on life. And um, then you

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Speaker 1: can get in all this other stuff that like the sun,

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Speaker 1: sun's rays are penetrating way deeper in the water calling

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Speaker 1: than they used to be, and then other things that

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Speaker 1: can proliferate and the oxygen can go way down in

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Speaker 1: the lake and then everything dies. Okay, vegetation, You get

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Speaker 1: aquatic vegetation in places you never had it before. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and then it's only suitable for what always lives, which

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Speaker 1: is carp um. Anyway, your aquarium moth balls, moss balls, okay,

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Speaker 1: old moss balls. Don't I would think, don't just pitch

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Speaker 1: them out in the yard. I was calling them zebra

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Speaker 1: balls on the podcast. I thought that was cute. Um,

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Speaker 1: don't pitch them out in the yard or just throw

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Speaker 1: them away. If you have purchased some of these things,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure is there a brand name? Like, what is there?

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Speaker 1: I didn't see a brand name, but these are apparently

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Speaker 1: like ubiquitous amongst uh you know, national pet store chains

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Speaker 1: and things like that. So uh, take them, throw them

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Speaker 1: all in the freezer for a good twenty four hours,

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Speaker 1: or like most people do, we'll just forget about them

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Speaker 1: for several months, and then then by the next time

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Speaker 1: you come across him, then you're cool to throw them away. Um.

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Speaker 1: Or you know, you can like soak them in bleach

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Speaker 1: um and then throw them away. But the the worst

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Speaker 1: thing you can do is like don't flush them down

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Speaker 1: the drain or throw them out in the storm drain

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Speaker 1: or something like that. One of the broody was talking

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Speaker 1: about zebra muscle sympathizers. I'll tell you who's not is

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Speaker 1: industry in general, because like filtration systems and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: Uh uh yeah, they clog them up. You're water power plants,

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. I don't know what the actual number is,

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Speaker 1: but it's like a billion dollars a year just managing

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Speaker 1: of the things, yeah, cleaning cleaning them off. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: like Montana, you know there's water, there's watercraft check stations

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Speaker 1: all over the place, uh in the summer months, and

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Speaker 1: one of the things they're looking for are zebra mussels inside. Um.

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Speaker 1: The the building area of your watercraft. And then if

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Speaker 1: you look at this stuff online, you'll always see like these,

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Speaker 1: um kind of stereotypical pictures of zebra muscles being stuck

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Speaker 1: all over old boat props and the bottoms of boats

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Speaker 1: and and uh and then like in the Great Lakes especially,

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Speaker 1: you get like on the lock systems. Uh. Just yeah,

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Speaker 1: somebody's making good money cleaning off zebra muscles. So if

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Speaker 1: you got moss balls, bleach them, bleach, bleach your balls. Uh. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is for Easter. Tu Larima story for Easter. A

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Speaker 1: guy a listener wrote in Um, he says he's got

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Speaker 1: a public service announcement, so he's apparently a Tonka truck enthusiast.

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Speaker 1: That's how this starts. Correct, He's a Tika truck enthusiast

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Speaker 1: and wakes up and checks on Craigslist and sees that

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Speaker 1: there's a kid selling a bunch of Tonka trucks. Sow

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Speaker 1: him being a Tonka enthusiast. Um, it's funny. I we

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Speaker 1: have a lot of Tika trucks, and I as a kid,

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Speaker 1: and I imagined my mother's attic being sort of this

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Speaker 1: repository of amazing vintage perfect Tonka trucks. It must just

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Speaker 1: be up there, and I got my kids pretty excited

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Speaker 1: for a trip to Grandma's. Went up There's just not

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Speaker 1: what I remember. Did you get rid of them? Are?

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Speaker 1: They just was like by a bunch of tiker trucks.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's one that's not a tiger truck. It's

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Speaker 1: got three tires. I'm not sure what happened over the

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Speaker 1: last thirty years. It's not the attic I imagined it being. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he's a time enthusiasts. So he goes to the guy.

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Speaker 1: He goes by. He goes to this kid's house by

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Speaker 1: the time of trucks, makes his purchase, and the kids

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Speaker 1: mentions like, hey, I also raise rabbits, So meat rabbits.

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Speaker 1: The guy raises the meat rabbits. So he buys a

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Speaker 1: meat rabbit and the trucks and brings the rabbit and

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Speaker 1: the trucks home. But the meat rabbit he gets to

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Speaker 1: a seven year old and the meat rabbit scratches. The

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Speaker 1: seven year old barely drew blood. Everyone goes about their business.

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Speaker 1: Now imagine this now so we know where this is going.

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Speaker 1: But but picture that he gets a rabbit rabbit scratch

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Speaker 1: as a kid twenty days goes by. Her lift notes

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Speaker 1: swell up. She gets a high fee. Her go to

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Speaker 1: the hospital in Oregon. They keep focusing on has she

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Speaker 1: been scratched by a cat? Cat scratched? Fever? Damn furs?

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Speaker 1: Time man, I got it, so keep asking about cats. Um.

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Speaker 1: They give her some antibiotics, do nothing. Lymph nodes grow

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Speaker 1: to the size of an egg. They do a surgery

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Speaker 1: on the poor girl. They remove her tonsils, They remove

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Speaker 1: her lymph nodes. They leave a three inch scar on

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Speaker 1: her neck. A month goes by, the fever returns, the

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Speaker 1: lymph nodes swell again. They go to you see Davis again,

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Speaker 1: you've been scratched by a cat again? They say, No,

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Speaker 1: I forgot to mention this in Oregon where you scratched

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Speaker 1: by a cat? No, but she was scratched by a rabbit.

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Speaker 1: You see Davis where you scratched by a cat? No,

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Speaker 1: but she was scratched by a rabbit. All of a

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Speaker 1: sudden to realize that this poor girl has had to

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Speaker 1: lurma and it was not diagnosed. So they do more surgery. Relieved,

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Speaker 1: removed two more lymph nodes. A cluster of necrotic dead

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Speaker 1: lymph nodes deep inside her neck, some dead tissue and

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Speaker 1: skin around the area put around the right by right

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Speaker 1: antibiotic savor life. They nick a nerve that controls or smiles,

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Speaker 1: and now her smiles off. It's crooked. She's got a

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Speaker 1: six inch scar below the three inch scar. The guy's

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Speaker 1: father in law goes and kills the rabbit. Later, someone

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Speaker 1: from the Center for Disease Control and Sacramento calls to

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Speaker 1: interview the family. They thought she maybe had plague, doesn't

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Speaker 1: and then expresses disappointment in the family for having killed

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Speaker 1: the rabbit, and they hung up on the person. Yeah, horrible,

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Speaker 1: guy says. With Easter coming up soon, I know people

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Speaker 1: be buying rabbits for their kids, and they should be

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Speaker 1: informed of this disease. Now, we talked about to Lorimi

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Speaker 1: extensively in the Wilderness Skills book, all the different ways

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Speaker 1: you can get it. You know, there was a guy,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if we mentioned this. Have you mentioned

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Speaker 1: this in the book? A guy that hit a desiccated rabbit,

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Speaker 1: a dead desiccated rabbit with a lawnmower and contracted a

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Speaker 1: airborne to lorimi and his lungs. Yeah, I think we

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Speaker 1: may have. And there's actually I think we mentioned that

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Speaker 1: there there has been talk of weaponizing because you can

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Speaker 1: arisolize it scary. This guy says, um, this will give you.

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Speaker 1: He says, this will give you something besides c w

359
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Speaker 1: D to talk about. Then he goes on to say,

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Speaker 1: if you have any health issues, he says, you know,

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Speaker 1: call your local trapper before seeking medical. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: they wipe out the uh the other if they went

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Speaker 1: to the kid's Yeah, I would think so. He probably

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Speaker 1: went back and he was probably selling Tonka trucks with

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Speaker 1: a rabbit the bag. Oh man, that's all that story is. Man,

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Speaker 1: watch out for tik trucks. But in your long and

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Speaker 1: illustrious cotton tail hunting career, how many have you come

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Speaker 1: across that you suspected of having to know? I don't

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Speaker 1: check them, but you know what, I used to hunt

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Speaker 1: cotton tails with a guy. They had gotten to Loremia

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Speaker 1: from cleaning cotton tails. I make a point of looking

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Speaker 1: at the liver. I've never seen what I haven't checked.

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Speaker 1: It was a bad one. This guy's name was Ken.

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Speaker 1: He was a hay farmer and he had gotten to

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Speaker 1: Loremi and his old man got to Loremia. And he's

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Speaker 1: still hunted rabbits. What's the lever supposed to look like?

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Speaker 1: Like yellow or white spots? I believe. I used to

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Speaker 1: make rabbit tempera with for ken, make rice, cook a

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Speaker 1: bunch of vegetables, make a sweet and sour sauce. Cut

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Speaker 1: the rabbit little strips. Make a little temper rabbit strips.

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Speaker 1: Put it on there. Don't sweet and sour sauce all

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00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: over it sounds good. He liked it. Yeah, something fried

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00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: with a bunch of sugar on it. Yeah, most people

384
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: are gonna dig that one. There's also that rabbit hammorrhagic disease.

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00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: It's still going around right now, which which is nasty.

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Speaker 1: But um, that's just another observation thing. You know, call

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Speaker 1: your local department and Natural Resources or fishing game and

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00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: let them. Yeah, there's a lot of good county by

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Speaker 1: county maps where you can see, like if all of

390
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 1: you've seen all kinds of dead rabbits, it will show

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00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: this new hammorrhagic thing cruising around. Yeah, we should talk

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Speaker 1: about that more extensively sometimes. All right, John Wellmi ready, Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: last time, tell about briefly recap the book we had

394
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Speaker 1: you on about last time. Last time I was here

395
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Speaker 1: talking about a book called Old Ones, which was about

396
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Speaker 1: endangered species conservation. That's the most boring way to put it, um,

397
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: and the more interesting way to put it is, it's

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00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: sort of about how America has treated and thought about

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Speaker 1: its wildlife throughout its history. So, you know, why, why

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Speaker 1: are we a country that at the beginning of one

401
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Speaker 1: century we want to kill all the bears and at

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Speaker 1: the end of another century when we want to make

403
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Speaker 1: sure that the bears don't go extinct? Um. So there

404
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: was a lot of on the ground reporting about the

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Speaker 1: kind of byzantine efforts to save the last you know,

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Speaker 1: Lang's metal mark butterfly at an industrial site in California

407
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Speaker 1: and things like that, and then a lot of history

408
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: about uh sort of you know, different eccentric characters throughout

409
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: American history have had, you know, very unique ideas and

410
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: and sometimes progressive ideas about are sort of obligations to

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Speaker 1: UH to wildlife. And in that conversation you hinted at

412
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Speaker 1: because I think you were working on this back then,

413
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: you were in this book. You're working on your book

414
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 1: that became This Is Chance. Yeah, I've been working on that.

415
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: That book, This Has Chance took me about six years

416
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: of work Um. So I've been just amassing, you know,

417
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: historical research for years and years, so it was very

418
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: much always on my mind, and I probably you know,

419
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: took any opportunity I could just start downloading the things

420
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: I was I was finding out at that point. Yeah,

421
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: when you started working on tell people what this is.

422
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: This is Chances. And then when you tell, like, explain

423
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: what you were, what you were getting at when you

424
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 1: started working on it, and and and how it kind

425
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: of became different than what you thought. Yeah, well this

426
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: is Chances, a book about the Great Alaska earthquake in

427
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 1: nine four sometimes it was the Good Friday earthquake. Um.

428
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: It happened on Good Friday evening, right as the sun

429
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: was going down. Um. And the book basically tells the

430
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: story in in pretty intimate detail. Um, just the narrative

431
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: of these first three days in the city of Anchorage.

432
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: So this was a time, this is just a few

433
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: years after Alaska statehood, when Anchorage was uh kind of

434
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: you know, beginning to feel like a real metropolis in Alaska.

435
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: I sort of saw itself as as fulfilling the promise

436
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: of of what Alaska was gonna be. And suddenly you

437
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: have this nine point two magnitude earthquake that shook the

438
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: city for four and a half minutes and you know,

439
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: just causing all kinds of destruction, but also really upending

440
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: people's you know, sense of of their of their community.

441
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: That that's the part that that's one of these that

442
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: blows my mind about the the earthquake, one of the

443
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: biggest earthquake in US history, right, Yeah, that's correct, the

444
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: second most powerful one ever measured, and the and the

445
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: most powerful one in the US. But the fact that

446
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: I felt one once, that was like it was over

447
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: before you could tell what you were feeling. But the

448
00:28:53,480 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: fact that that lasted longer than a rock song, you'd

449
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: almost like settle into it. It is kind of it's

450
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: hard to imagine. Makes four and a half minutes seemed

451
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: very long, very long. Yeah, that was definitely the first

452
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: thing that grabbed me about it, one of the first,

453
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: maybe the first thing I found about the earthquake, which

454
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: I had never heard of. You know, I grew up

455
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: on the East Coast. It's you know, happened fifteen years

456
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: before I was born, or fourteen years before I was born.

457
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: It just it just kind of went over my head

458
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: that there had been this this disaster. So one of

459
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: the first things I found was just this big report,

460
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: you know, four hundred page report um of individual people's uh,

461
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: you know, recollections of this is what was happening to

462
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: me during those four and a half minutes. And you

463
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: see a lot of like mental gymnastics of you know,

464
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: first not like you're saying, not knowing what the hell

465
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:47,959
Speaker 1: is happening, And that can go on for a minute.

466
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: You know, thirty people think it's it's the Cold War,

467
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: people think it's a nuclear attack or whatever it is

468
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: Judgment day, and then there's a kind of bargaining phase.

469
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: You know, they're coming up with different different explanations, and

470
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: some people, you know, just it seemed like they just

471
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: kind of gave up hope that that they were ever

472
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: gonna kind of make sense of this thing. You know,

473
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: there was enough time that you could kind of go

474
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: through you know, certainty and fatalism and all these kinds

475
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: of emotions and and just lock onto these these different

476
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: bizarre images, uh that as your mind's trying to to

477
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: make sense of them, trying to make some kind of

478
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: story about what's happening to you. John, I have a question, Yeah,

479
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: did anybody anyone of those reports ever say that, oh,

480
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: at minute three, I just settled in. Uh, you know,

481
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: they're they're definitely I don't think anyone put it so explicitly,

482
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: but you definitely you could. There were There were definitely

483
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: accounts where it was like, you know, I tried to

484
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: hold on to this and that didn't work. So and

485
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: they would go through four or five different things, you know,

486
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: and uh or you know, at first I was trying

487
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: to keep my car from jerking into the opposite lane,

488
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: but then the steering wheel was wrenching my wrists and

489
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: that seemed dangerous. So then I decided to you know,

490
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: hunker down here. So yeah, there was It's it's amazing,

491
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: you know. I mean if I recommend you actually just

492
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: sit with a stop watch for four and a half

493
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: minutes and see what that feels like, because you can

494
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: go crazy when the earth's not shaking, you know. Um.

495
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's the that psychological part of it, the

496
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: surreality of it and the disorientation. Um. I still can't

497
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: really get my head around, you know. When you you

498
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: mentioned growing up not knowing about that earthquake. Um, it's

499
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: still lived. You know, my brother lives an anchorage has

500
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: been there for a very long time. Now, Um, it's

501
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: still almost like, I don't want to say it's a

502
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: daily part of life, but it's it's just like it's

503
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: the earthquake. And you know, we used to go hunt

504
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: ducks in a place that used to be agricultural fields

505
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: but it fell whatever eight ft and became a marsh.

506
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: And there's still pieces of equipment and stuff sticking out

507
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: of the water. You know. It's like people just like

508
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: talk about it as as this thing, and there's still

509
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: all the trees from the areas that slumped into the ocean,

510
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: trees sticking up. Yeah. Yeah, there were a lot of

511
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: you're probably talking about Portage. There was this whole, yeah,

512
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: a whole a whole little community that just exactly just

513
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: sunk and got inundated by by the salt water. But yeah,

514
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: I think that's that's what struck me to when I

515
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: went to Anchorage. There's there's places that you know, they

516
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: just couldn't really rebuild in the way they wanted to,

517
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: you know. So the there's an earthquake park Um, which

518
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: was basically the luxury neighborhood of Anchorage at the time,

519
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: that just sloughed off this ridge onto the shore line

520
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: and now now it's a park you can hike through.

521
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: They've got little interpretive signs and things. Um. Yeah, it's

522
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: very much a part of the identity of the city.

523
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: I think. Um, it's a city that is really proud

524
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: of its history, and it doesn't have you know, as

525
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: long or you know, as crowded of a history as

526
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: some other uh you know, cities on the in America.

527
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a real touchstone for people. One of

528
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: the things I liked about the book is explains a

529
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: little bit about I know, it's like it's hard, we'll

530
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: get to what the book narrows in on, but uh, Richter,

531
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: like you you always here. You know the Richter scale.

532
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: And I remember in early college I had to take

533
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: geology one O, one or something and they explain how

534
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: that scale is exponential. So a nine is ten times

535
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: worse than a than an eight. Um. But I guess

536
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: you thought you thought I was worth putting in your

537
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: book talk about what Richter, like, the guy Richter, what

538
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: he was doing, and how this earthquake kind of played

539
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: into his work and life. Yeah, I love that you

540
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: asked about that. I mean, I know that as a writer,

541
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: you know, you probably read that. I knew exactly what

542
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: what was going on, which was, you know, there's not

543
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: a lot of science in the book. But I started

544
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: reading about Richter and I was like, I gotta get

545
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: this guy in here somehow. I was like, yeah, you're

546
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: like doing a book. You sometimes you're like, I don't

547
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: care how I'm jamming this in. Yeah, I don't care

548
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: where I put it. That was definitely it. I was like,

549
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: you know, if it's okay, I'll give him two pages. Okay,

550
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: oh you don't like that, editor, have at one page?

551
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: Al right, how about half a page? But yeah, but

552
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: I got him in there, and then you of course

553
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: zeroed right in on it. And that's the first first

554
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: thing we're gonna talk about. But yeah, Charles Richter. Um.

555
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about the guy. But he wasn't

556
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 1: He was an odd duck. Um he was he he um.

557
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: You know, I sort of uh, I sort of had

558
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: this image of him as this kind of like, uh,

559
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: someone who's exceptionally good at the science he's doing and

560
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 1: kind of exceptionally bad at every other facet of of

561
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: social existence, you know. And uh he he was in

562
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: a kind of polyamorous relationship for a while and wrote

563
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 1: a lot. You know, was seemed not so sensitive about

564
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: it and have the great greatest sensitivities about he was

565
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: dappled in nudism, I believe. Um. In any case, he

566
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: wasn't we all yeah, well when you know every time. Yeah,

567
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: he he wrote some really really bad poetry which I

568
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: had the pleasure of of reading. Um explained the polyamorous relationship. Uh,

569
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: you know, I don't actually know that I can go

570
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: too too much into death and that at the moment

571
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: rabbit hole. No, I just don't remember all the details,

572
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: remember that there there was a lot of there was

573
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: a lot of consternation from his wife that he lived with.

574
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 1: In my memory that you know, he he wasn't really

575
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 1: good at at juggling everything as far as I remember. Um.

576
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, but the thing that I the thing that

577
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: I loved was that he enters the story. This is

578
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 1: why I could justify putting him in the book there. Yeah,

579
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: when you're that he enters the story in this very

580
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: kind of representative moment where he's you know, he works

581
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: down in southern California running his lab, and he's sitting

582
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: at home about he and his wife have cocktails poured

583
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 1: and they're turning on the radio to listen to a

584
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: broadcast of a concert, and he's got this giant dude

585
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: that I'm sorry, but that just doesn't happen anymore. No, No,

586
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: it doesn't. I mean it kind of I feel like

587
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: it's kind of happened this last this last year a

588
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: little bit. We're kind of all our grandparents sitting in

589
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: our chairs side by side. You know what's on the

590
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 1: list tonight? Hunt um. But yeah, that's that's the kind

591
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: of the kind of a mood that they were setting that.

592
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: It was a really mid century, you know, elegant living room.

593
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: I've seen pictures of it and kind of this uh,

594
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, a gorgeous southern California home. And he has

595
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: um been pissing off his wife by um installing a

596
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: bunch of scientific instruments in his living room, um, right

597
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,439
Speaker 1: in the middle of the living room so that he can,

598
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: you know, measure earthquakes and stuff. And she does not

599
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: like this, although he in his telling she's she's grown

600
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: accustomed to it and is fine with it now, but

601
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: you kind of have to question that. And they're setting

602
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: them down with their their concert, and all of a sudden,

603
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: the needle starts starts jumping, measuring the great Alaska earthquake,

604
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: you know, without out a couple thousand miles away, and

605
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: uh he uh. He turns to his his his wife,

606
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: and he says, oh, that's a that's a great earthquake,

607
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: you know, and and she and she doesn't really she

608
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: doesn't respond, you know, so because because he's talking over

609
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: the concert. Um so, but I like that moment, I guess.

610
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: And the reason why I felt justified to cram it

611
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 1: into the book is because I tell that that little

612
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: anecdote just as a kind of end note to a

613
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: kind of panorama of all of the destruction and chaos

614
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: that's happening in Alaska, and then reverberating out, you know,

615
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: until it's getting smaller, you know, these actual the shaking

616
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: is getting smaller and smaller, and people registering is getting

617
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: smaller and smaller, until finally you come all the way

618
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: down the coast, uh, and you've kind of just got

619
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: this dweeb in his living room just kind of, you know,

620
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: pausing between SIPs of his cocktail, saying, oh, look at that.

621
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: You know, something's a shaking, you know, So that's somewhere exactly.

622
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: It seemed to me to reveal something, um, you know,

623
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: kind of profound about suffering. I guess something that happened

624
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: during the concert, right, remember that concert? Because why did

625
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,439
Speaker 1: so few people die? Yeah? That's a really good because

626
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: it seemed like you know, and reading i'm it plays

627
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: out when you're reading it, it plays out. Yanni wouldn't

628
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: like it because you don't really know what's gonna you know,

629
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: what's gonna happen. The daughters will be irritated, but you're

630
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: thinking that, uh, that out like thousands of dead people. Well, yeah,

631
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: like the whole luxury neighborhood ends up on the beach.

632
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: That is like like literally like someone cleared a table

633
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: and said, all the houses down off the edge of

634
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: the table. Yeah, yeah, it's um. I mean that's the

635
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: key point for me was that it took days to

636
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: realize that fewer people had died than anyone imagined. That

637
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: to me was the real drama of this. This story

638
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 1: was like calling their way back from this complete disorientation

639
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: to just figure out the most basic information about what

640
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: just had happened. Right, you know, how many of us

641
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: are dead? That seems like a pretty fundamental thing to

642
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: get your head around after something like this. But yeah,

643
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: there's a couple of different reasons. I mean, first of all,

644
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: the there there were you know, there was just just

645
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: over hundred deaths of numbers kind of up in the

646
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: air still, but UM, and a lot of these deaths

647
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: were the majority of them were actually in um Native

648
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: Alaskan villages that just had a tsunami from tsunamis resulting

649
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: tsunamis UM. You know, the entire villages were just kind

650
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: of a race by those waves. UM. And so you

651
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: had UM you know, sadly that was where a lion's

652
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: share of of the deaths were in Anchorage itself. The

653
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: story is a lot more complicated because on the one hand,

654
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: it's you know, it was Alaska's you know, greatest metropolis.

655
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: It was also not a very densely populated place, right

656
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: and there weren't a lot of tall buildings at all.

657
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: There's a lot of you know, small, single family wooden structures,

658
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: which which fared you know, not exactly well, but you

659
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: didn't have complete you know, pancaking all over the place. UM.

660
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 1: And then the other the other reason, which I found

661
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 1: most fascinating was a lot of people survived because there

662
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: was this great burst of energy um, all around the

663
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 1: city right after the shaking stopped to go find people

664
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 1: in the package. So, um, you know this search and rescue,

665
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: you know, I mean to even call it, that makes

666
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: it sound way more organized and methodical than it was.

667
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: At first. It was just this scramble to peel people out.

668
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: You know, you had people just passer by outside the J. C.

669
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: Penny Building working in teams bringing in tow trucks and

670
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: other equipment, cutting torches to get people out of cars

671
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 1: that had been buried in the rubble of the collapsing facade.

672
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: So whereas in a lot you know, a lot of disasters,

673
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the debts are people that

674
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: you know, they're not killed immediately by the disaster itself,

675
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: but you know they're they're killed by some you know,

676
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: they're they're trapped or something like that. A lot of

677
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 1: these people are being peeled out right away and taking

678
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: to get medical care. Um. So it's it's a much

679
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: more complicated story than that. But those are some of

680
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: the reasons that I that I really latched onto as

681
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: being kind of illustrated with what was happening in the city.

682
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: You know, John, I don't know, it kind of surprised

683
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: me too. I'm trying to think of out why I'm

684
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: trying to say it surprised me. It surprised me a

685
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: little bit because in a lot of ways the books

686
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: seem to have this It had almost the um libertarian ethos,

687
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 1: where it would be that all these um like structures

688
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: we put together, you know, like like organizational things and

689
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: official dumb and bureaucracy, right, so that we're all set

690
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: when ship hits the fan. But in this case, you're

691
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: going you almost make this kind of like, you know,

692
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: it almost seems like you're enthusiastic about the fact that

693
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: that stuff doesn't work, and what does work is just

694
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 1: people like doing what needs to be done. And it

695
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: kind of seems strange to see you. You know, this

696
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: is like prepay when you wrote it was pre pandemic.

697
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: You know, I wonder if you'd look at it differently

698
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: now when you see that that you know, like how

699
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 1: we've responded to the last year in terms of our

700
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: reliance on bureaucracy and government and following the guidelines in

701
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: this book being like, dude, guidelines don't work, man, at

702
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: least here, And then you know, I mean, that's that's

703
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: something that I've been I've been thinking about a lot, obviously,

704
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: and and to be honest, it's not it's not as

705
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: easy to resolve for me as it as it might seem.

706
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 1: It kind of reminds me of So there's a there's

707
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: a big portion of the book that's about sort of sociology,

708
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: sociologist who studied disasters, and and there's a great book

709
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: by Rebecca soln It called The Paradise Built in Hill.

710
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if any of you guys have read that,

711
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: but it's it's explicitly about that. It's just about this

712
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 1: field of sociology. That's that's showing what you're talking about

713
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 1: that you know, it's people banded together and do right.

714
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: And I remember I know Rebecca and she she had

715
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: started working on that book. She published a piece, uh,

716
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: sort of about that premise in Harper's I think, and

717
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: it came out the week of Hurricane Katrina. And I

718
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: remember talking with her then and and she's she's putting

719
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: forward the thesis, you know, people are are good, they

720
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: band together, and on the TV, you know you're seeing

721
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: just you know, kind of chaos and full and I

722
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: think she had the presence of mind to know that um,

723
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: you know, she's looking at it in a on a

724
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: different time scale, and that also a lot of that

725
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: media stuff is uh is incorrect when it first comes out,

726
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: and it took her years to piece together the story

727
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: the kind of true reporting the show that that her

728
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: initial insect is true. I don't know why I'm I'm

729
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: going on about her, except for just I think she's

730
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: an amazing writer. Uh. You know, my book owes a

731
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: debt to her, to her book, But in any case, UM, yeah,

732
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: I think you're right absolutely that what's happening in the

733
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: book is you have a lot of Cold war bureaucratic

734
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: structures in Anchorage and elsewhere that are set up to

735
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: handle disasters, but what they're really set up to handle

736
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: is like nuclear war, and no one set up to

737
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: handle nuclear war, you know. So, so you have UM

738
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: in the place of these um kind of official agencies

739
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: kind of unraveling or being slow to adapt to the situation,

740
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: you have endo visual people UM, including Genie Chance, who's

741
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: sort of the main character of the book, who are

742
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: who are kind of rising up and meeting the problem

743
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: in front of them. And then not only are they

744
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,919
Speaker 1: meeting the problem in front of them, but then they're

745
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: banding together in forming kind of ad hoc organizations to

746
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: solve even bigger problems. And it just keeps going like

747
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: that all weekend. And I think that is absolutely true,

748
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: and that's absolutely characteristic of what tends to happen in disasters. Um.

749
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: You see that when people have studied the responses you know,

750
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: in all kinds of different kinds of natural disasters all

751
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: around the world. Um, what we saw this year, I

752
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: think is, um, you know a lot of that, you know,

753
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,959
Speaker 1: and we can we can talk about that too, because um,

754
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: I've actually been involved with a group like that, um

755
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 1: where I live. But UM, but I think what you're

756
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: referring to is we've we've also seen, uh, you know this,

757
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: there's some elements of a disaster that only government can address.

758
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: Right those people are gonna kick in. The ordinary people

759
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: are gonna kick in right away and start digging someone

760
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,280
Speaker 1: out of rubble, or organizing search and rescue or getting

761
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: food to people, things like that. But there's also things

762
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: happening on a grand scale that only government is going

763
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: to be able to solve. And because my books only

764
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 1: dealing with those first three days, I'm not talking necessarily

765
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: about a lot of those things. I'm not talking about

766
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: rebuilding a city, making sure the water system is safe, um,

767
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: things like that. And so I think the thing about

768
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: I mean, we we kind of got to see it

769
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 1: in real time at the beginning of the pandemic or

770
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: even through the middle of the pandemic, where you had

771
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: people doing as much as they could, you know, staying

772
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 1: staying home, sewing masks, doing three D printing face shields,

773
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 1: you know, all sorts of things. But when you have

774
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: a government response that's just not kicking in on a

775
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: problem of this scale. If those people are only going

776
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: to get you so far. UM. So I could have

777
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: told a lot more of the story of how the government,

778
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: especially the military, being that there was, you know, this

779
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: huge military presence in Alaska. Um, they had a lot

780
00:45:55,360 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: to do with making things run smoothly after the quake. Uh.

781
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: But to me, for those three days, the most interesting

782
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: story to me, and and the most surprising story, was

783
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: the story of these people who were in many cases

784
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: surprising themselves and really managing to get ship done in

785
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: ways that they wouldn't have been able to predict beforehand.

786
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: Explain how did I slap that one way? Did I

787
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: defend my thesis successfully. Yeah, I think I think that

788
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: you you tackled it well. I do not view this

789
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: as an anti government manifesto. It was good though, to

790
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: see because you know, at the beginning of you can

791
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: only you can only equate a pandemic and an earthquake,

792
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: like the comparisons. You kind of run out of comparisons

793
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: pretty quickly. But right early in the pandemic, I did

794
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 1: see a lot of folks, including some people who I like, Uh,

795
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: their initial thing was I'm gonna get ready to start

796
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,399
Speaker 1: killing my neighbors when they come for my food. Right, Like,

797
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: there's there's some folks that that's where they're That's just

798
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: where they go. It's it's sad that that's where they go,

799
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: but that's where they go. And other people are like,

800
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: I wonder how I could help my neighbors, you know? Um,

801
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: And you really see in the three Days that that

802
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: you describe, you see overwhelmingly is what can I do

803
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: to help my neighbors? Not um, how can I get

804
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 1: ready to kill them all when they run out of water? Uh?

805
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 1: But talk about how how how Genie Chance enters the thing?

806
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:34,919
Speaker 1: And like you know the books called This is Chance,

807
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: which is named after which you wouldn't guess from looking

808
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: at the cover necessarily, but named after a particular person

809
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 1: who really emerges as this star player in this in

810
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 1: this drama. Why did you choose not to introduce Genie

811
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 1: Chance on the cover when when her name is so

812
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: clearly on the cover? Children I like to I like

813
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: to torment children who can't stand suspend and uh, I

814
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: need to plug their ears when scary things happened in movies. Um, yeah,

815
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: I mean Genie Chance. For me, discovering Genie Chance and

816
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: discovering the earthquake happened simultaneously. That report that I mentioned,

817
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 1: you know, just collecting individual people's accounts of those four

818
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: and a half minutes, that was something Genie did. Um. So.

819
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: Genie was a part time radio reporter, working mother and

820
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,439
Speaker 1: anchorage at the time, which was a pretty rare thing

821
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: on on its own. Um And she was just, you know,

822
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: completely tenacious person. And she ended up by sort of

823
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: a quirk of luck, but also like her own persistence,

824
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: winding up in the heart of everything, you know, immediately

825
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: after the quake, right at the police station where information

826
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: was starting to come in, the the official city response

827
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 1: was starting starting to take shape, and she had this

828
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: mobile radio unit in her car that she used to

829
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: report UM as a kind of roving reporter around Anchorage normally,

830
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 1: and so she was able to get on the radio

831
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: in once the station was up and running and relay

832
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: a lot of that information. And at first that was

833
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: a very simple job, and over the course of these

834
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: three days it becomes um a much more important job

835
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: and a much more elaborate job where she just kind of,

836
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, stumbled into being a really integral part of

837
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 1: of the whole community response and also like a voice

838
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: that was guiding a lot of people in town through it.

839
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: So even you know, saying like we need a diesel

840
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: fuel over here, or we need a doctor and here,

841
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: you know, that was her giving that information. And then

842
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: also people who couldn't were separated from their family members,

843
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,959
Speaker 1: just you know, hours of just reciting people's names and saying,

844
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: you know, your mother is looking for you. Uh, you know,

845
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: give us, we'll come here, we'll get a message back,

846
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,879
Speaker 1: and relaying those those back and forth over the air. UM.

847
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: But that report that I mentioned, uh, that was that

848
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: was all her doing. That was after the quake, she

849
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: went back and interviewed all these people to just kind

850
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: of collect in oral history like that. And I found

851
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: that report and in the very beginning, there's a little

852
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: author's note that says, you know, the author is a

853
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: our time radio reporter who was on the air for

854
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: fifty nine hours after the quake, and her family recorded

855
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: a lot of those broadcasts, and uh, you know I

856
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 1: saw that and and my my, you know, journalists spiky

857
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: scent started tingling, and I just thought, I got to

858
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: find these these tapes, um, which which I did. Ultimately

859
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: I found found a lot of hours of broadcasts from

860
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: the radio station Katie and I and that that was

861
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: kind of the backbone of this book. It allowed me

862
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: to to really tell it in a minute by minute

863
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: kind of way. Uh. You could times have mentioned how

864
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: the book focuses in a few days, but when towards

865
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: the end it doesn't, because I mean it's very much

866
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: about like the day of the quake and the immediate aftermath.

867
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: But it we don't need to go into this and

868
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: to go high level of detail because people need to

869
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: go read it and find out. But for her, um,

870
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: it never ends, you know. I mean it's like there's

871
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: these handful of people that that this becomes sort of

872
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: the defining thing in their life and then and then

873
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: shapes and and kind of in unhappy ways. Uh yeah,

874
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: that being like this pinnacle moment you never eventually I

875
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: guess you kind of stranded on the the pinnacle, you know.

876
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 1: For her, Yeah, I don't know that I put it

877
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 1: exactly that way. I mean I think that she, you know,

878
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 1: when you think about what it would have been like

879
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 1: to be like a working mother in nine four, I mean,

880
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: she was dealing with a kind of um sexism that

881
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 1: it's it's just almost funny to see it now, like

882
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 1: you you feel like it's a satire, you know, the

883
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: way people would talk to her. And so during the

884
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: quake for her to just ascend to this position of

885
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 1: of you know where she's just so obviously competent and

886
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: getting stuff done and being so valuable to the community

887
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: without question, I think that really, um it kind of

888
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: freed her to to just accept her own you know, awesomeness.

889
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: I guess, you know, like it was just sort of

890
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 1: like the last the last thing she needed to feel

891
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 1: like why am I wasting my time? You know with

892
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 1: other people's expectations. So in that way, it was a

893
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: kind of door that that opened for her, and she

894
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,720
Speaker 1: went on to have this career in the legislature and

895
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: and did a lot of really um, you know, important

896
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: work there. But yeah, there is there is a moment

897
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 1: in the book where when you kind of just fast

898
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: forward through the rest of her life and you do

899
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 1: realize that that it, you know, it was a very sad,

900
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: you know, last phase of her life for a variety

901
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: of reasons. And that was something that I just really

902
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: tried to keep and keep my eye on as I

903
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,280
Speaker 1: was going through the whole process of researching this book.

904
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,720
Speaker 1: Was it's a very weird thing to write about three

905
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: days that happened fifty plus years ago, because you're your

906
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: head so in the minute by minute drama of that time,

907
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: and then you look up from that and you say,

908
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 1: I wonder what happened to this guy? And nine times

909
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: out of tend you hit an obituary, you know, and

910
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 1: you realize that these three days were just a sliver

911
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: of time in these people's lives, and uh, And that

912
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: really shaped the whole feeling of the book for me,

913
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 1: was to to think that there's this kind of intensity

914
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: that kicks in in these moments, but a lot of

915
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: the feelings that that come up in those times, and

916
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: a lot of the possibilities that come up in those

917
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 1: times are things that kind of haunt you or or

918
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 1: carry you carry on for the rest of your life,

919
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: so that you could have someone at the you know,

920
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: top of their game, you know, like Genie, you know,

921
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: in this moment, and then you you sort of you

922
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: wanted to last. You want it to stay as of

923
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: her life, and and it, you know, it keeps going

924
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: higher for a while. But you know, eventually kind of

925
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: all our stories and in the same way, um and

926
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: somehow that just made the whole story of the quake

927
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: more poignant to me. This this idea that your life

928
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: can be disrupted, you know that violently at at any minute. Well,

929
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: you know, in the end, it's kind of what we

930
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,320
Speaker 1: all kind of get get the earth, you know, stripped

931
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: out from under us. I guess okay, tell folks, you

932
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 1: know the title subtitles, Okay, can I get? Can I get? In?

933
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 1: A one more questions? Didn't go? Man? John? What did

934
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: it put you in any sort of like a like

935
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: a different space to spend six years in three days? Yeah, yeah,

936
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: it really did. I don't even really know how to

937
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 1: how to talk about that. I mean, it was it

938
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,240
Speaker 1: was insane, Like it's just an insane thing to do

939
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: in retrospect, you know, like like I remember one night

940
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle of like we were having you know,

941
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: having dinner with the family, and we're doing that. You know,

942
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: who would you living or dead? Who would you like

943
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: to have to dinner? You know, as Gennie Chance, you know,

944
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: like question, you know, and you know it's like it's

945
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 1: not only it's not only Genie Chance. It's like it's like,

946
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: you know, the uh, the second in command at the

947
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: National Guard. Because I really wanted to know, like where

948
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 1: where were you standing when you said this? You know,

949
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: like it's not they were not normal concerns, you know. Um,

950
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think that it's Uh, it definitely made

951
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 1: me think about my own life differently in the sense

952
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: that I think anytime you have the luxury of really

953
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: trying to to zoom out and realized that you know, this,

954
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: this moment that we're in is is just going to

955
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 1: be this little narrow, um, you know, speck of a

956
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 1: much longer line, Um, it really starts to mess with

957
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: your head because I just don't think we normally have

958
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: the tools to like integrate all that information. But definitely

959
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: I feel like I mean, even the other day I

960
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 1: was I was just like standing on my on my

961
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: front lawn looking at this this maple tree, and I

962
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: was thinking like, oh, yeah, it's starting to look a

963
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: little unhealthy, like yeah, maybe maybe twenty years from now

964
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 1: it'll it'll keel over. And and also this used to

965
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: be a tree farm, so I wonder if this was

966
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: you know, this came up after they cleared all the

967
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,240
Speaker 1: furs or what, you know. Just suddenly seeing these moments

968
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 1: on a much huger time scale, Um, I think is

969
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: something that I may never stop doing, just kind of instinctually, um,

970
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 1: because I spent so much time kind of stuck in

971
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 1: you know, stuck in the past. I don't know if

972
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: that makes any sense. It's it's something I'm still trying

973
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 1: to unpack for myself. Honestly, are you doing a new

974
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: book now? I wish? Um. No. I mean, this year

975
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 1: has been just completely strange professionally, so I've been kind

976
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 1: of dabbling on a couple of things. But um, I'm

977
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: one of those people that kind of just had to

978
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: pump the brakes a little bit and deal with you know,

979
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: kids and and keeping my my family life working. So

980
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: um So, No, just in the since the new year,

981
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: I've been I've been really starting to look for what

982
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: my next project is going to be. But there were

983
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: a few months there where I was like just a

984
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 1: whole part of myself was was deactivated. You know, do

985
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,800
Speaker 1: you have to restrain yourself from turning to the kids

986
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: on like all their events, right and being like, well,

987
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: if you think about it, it's not that big of

988
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 1: a deal. Yeah, yeah, I think I think I do.

989
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: I mean I have to do that to myself too.

990
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, around the time, right right after I finished

991
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 1: this book, I did um before it had come out,

992
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: but after I was done with it, I did a

993
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: story about the um the campfire in northern California in

994
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen. Um So, I did a big magazine

995
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: story about that. And that was another similar situation where

996
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: I basically just told the story of like six hours

997
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: and was you know, had videos of multiple angles of

998
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: different things and was just you know, just like even

999
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: more compressed than three days of an earthquake, was the

1000
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 1: six hour you know, evacuation of this one this one car.

1001
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: And I definitely started like looking around at you know,

1002
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: the trees on my property and noticing which ones are

1003
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 1: gonna fall in the driveway and all that stuff. And

1004
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: I made the mistake of kind of like talking about

1005
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 1: that a little too much with my daughters. And I

1006
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: think it's you know, I really it was not good parenting,

1007
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 1: you know. I sort of loaded them up with a

1008
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: kind of awareness of peril that I don't think was

1009
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: was recommended. Um, But yeah, you gotta you gotta put

1010
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: up some walls sometimes, and I'm not necessarily very good

1011
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: at it. I made the mistake one time, um of

1012
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: explaining to my kids how the sun will burn out,

1013
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: you know. And I was telling them that the Earth

1014
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: kind of in a midlife crisis, like you know, for

1015
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 1: a billion year old planet, and the sun is gonna

1016
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 1: peter her out and maybe about that long. And they

1017
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 1: just can't comprehend the time. So in their mind is

1018
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 1: still like any moment are they look at? I told, well,

1019
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 1: you won't know until eight minutes after it happened, So

1020
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 1: but no, they feel like at any moment is just

1021
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 1: gonna go blue. Yah. Well, I remember, I'm gonna blame

1022
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: you a little bit, Steve, because I remember I think

1023
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 1: maybe I heard you on a interviewed. I think it

1024
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 1: was an I don't think it was a conversation we

1025
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 1: were having where you were talking about your son and

1026
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 1: just loving your truck and knowing that everything that you

1027
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: need to survive is in your truck and uh and

1028
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 1: uh and I feel like that's what That's what I

1029
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 1: was aiming for, you know, I was aiming for that

1030
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 1: kind of like we got this kind of vibe that

1031
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: I don't think I carry it off, and I didn't

1032
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: carry it off the same way. I gotta work on

1033
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 1: my tone or something. You know. What's messing with me

1034
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 1: on this is I A huge part of me is like,

1035
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 1: don't be in a city center, don't be in a

1036
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: in a place where the infrastructure is so built up

1037
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 1: when these disasters occur. And it's it's really boning me

1038
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 1: out that the uh, you know, the superstructure less native

1039
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: villages on the coastline were the ones that had the

1040
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: highest mortality rates. That's it was just like not it

1041
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: was lack of not the narrative you want to hear,

1042
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 1: it's not it's not yeah, well there, yeah, I mean

1043
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: there is a school of thought that the you know,

1044
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 1: if you stop thinking of people as problems during disasters

1045
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: right as as chaos that needs to be controlled or avoided,

1046
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 1: and you start seeing them as parts of the solution,

1047
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 1: then that suggests you want to be around as many

1048
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: people as possible, right because mutual aid and all that stuff,

1049
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 1: it's just you've got more to work with and uh

1050
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 1: and then again, you know, so this is I live

1051
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 1: on Bambridge Island, which is next to Seattle, so it's

1052
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: a I think it's twenty seven thousand people community, you know,

1053
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 1: and I've been, um, I've been really blown away by

1054
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 1: a lot of the things that volunteers in this community

1055
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 1: have been able to do during the pandemics. I've been

1056
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 1: working volunteering at the vaccination clinic they're running. They just

1057
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 1: did their ten thousand DOCE yesterday, which is insane for

1058
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: a community this size, and they're doing, you know, people

1059
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 1: from all over this part of the state. And I

1060
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: think that maybe there's also a sweet spot where you

1061
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 1: have a community where you know, it's small enough that

1062
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 1: people feel a part of it and feel like the

1063
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 1: problems are manageable and that they can step up and

1064
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: actually make a difference with that, but it's not quite

1065
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 1: too small where you know, you don't have that kind

1066
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 1: of critical mass of of human energy to get things done.

1067
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, I agree, I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't

1068
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 1: that people in those villages weren't weren't taking care of

1069
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 1: each other. They were. I mean, they were really heroic

1070
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, trying to get everyone, you know,

1071
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: clambering up these hill sides, keeping kids warm overnight, things

1072
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 1: like that. But they were just up against that was

1073
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 1: more geography, I think than sociology. They were just up

1074
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: against a giant wave that was that was coming on

1075
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 1: their on their coastline. So you can I'm I'm trying

1076
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 1: trying to reassure you. Go, you're doing a good job.

1077
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: You're doing a good job. Okay, I'm practicing for my kids,

1078
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: all right, John hit us with all the all the

1079
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 1: detailed information, all right. The book is called This Is Chance,

1080
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 1: The Shaking of an All American City and a voice

1081
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: that held it together. And it just came out in

1082
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 1: paperback from find people at Random House Books and you

1083
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 1: can buy it with your money. Um was a good pitch.

1084
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: Tell everybody where. I mean, you can find it anywhere

1085
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 1: you can find I want to I want to see

1086
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 1: if I want to see how you walk this delicate line.

1087
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 1: Where should people find the book, John You can buy

1088
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 1: it from from Eagle Harvard Book Company on Bambridge Island, Washington.

1089
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: Go on there, go on their website and tell Johnson

1090
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: that was very that was that was very diplomatic, and

1091
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 1: anywhere else books are sold. Yeah, all right, man, Uh,

1092
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: we'll talk to you in six years when you got

1093
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 1: another one. Thank you. Appreciate that. You gotta find something

1094
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,440
Speaker 1: that happened in one day, because then maybe he'll take

1095
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 1: you just two years to do it. Yeah, or like

1096
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: a couple of minutes. Maybe I'll just I'll do a

1097
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 1: book about this podcast. I'll just retrace, I'll interview, I'll

1098
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 1: find out what was your interior monologue is going on

1099
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: as we as we supposed all look forward to reading.

1100
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: Thanks man, Uh, come back anytime you got something you

1101
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: gotta plug you. If it's just a magazine article, cool,

1102
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: I'll do that. Thank you very much to talk to y'all.

1103
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:41,040
Speaker 1: Cal Are you hip to the whole deal about how

1104
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 1: you look like the guy from ram Jam? Nope, you're

1105
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 1: not hip to that. No, no one showed you this.

1106
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 1: I mean, who's looked into ram Jam deeper than the

1107
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: song Black? Betty right. Well, that's that's how we know

1108
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: about it. You haven't seen this, cran, do you mind?

1109
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 1: You don't know about this? Holy shit, that guy looks

1110
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 1: like you, but you don't look this like poo. This

1111
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: is no that brought up. We actually found Callahan. Callahan

1112
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:19,920
Speaker 1: is a collaborator in lyricist for The Grateful Dead named

1113
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 1: Robert Hunter, who weirdly died at seventy eight. Even though

1114
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 1: you're sitting here right now, if you show that is cal,

1115
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:43,040
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable, dude, can you can you cal? Can you

1116
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 1: fold your hands and rest your head? I have advice

1117
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 1: for men. This is my advice for men in photographs.

1118
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: Keep your hands away from your face. But for me,

1119
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 1: if you don't mind, can you rest your chin on

1120
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 1: your hands? Okay? Right here, right here? Were we need

1121
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 1: to play? Like? Yeah? Where can we putting on the

1122
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 1: other direction? Can get other direction for me real quick?

1123
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 1: And then look at me, look at me? No, no,

1124
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 1: you gotta have your yeah hold here for the for

1125
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 1: the audience out there. We are looking at a front

1126
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 1: from if you go to Rolling Stones magazine, I think

1127
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 1: it's Rolling Stone, Rolling Stones, sorry, Rolling Stones, Rolling Stones magazine.

1128
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 1: And I turned up the picture. It's a Robert Hunter,

1129
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 1: grateful dead collaborator and lyricist. A at we ain't getting

1130
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 1: richer because we can't get a picture that it's unbelievable anyhow,

1131
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 1: what gets me to thinking about wolves? Yanni? Janni's got

1132
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:08,120
Speaker 1: Does this qualify as a book? Can we do this

1133
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 1: qualify as a book report? We play a book report? Jingle? Yeah?

1134
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: What the hell? Yeah? But first before my book report,

1135
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 1: you got to introduce our guests. That's joined us. Now,

1136
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 1: that's real port and Joann, you do it that all

1137
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: the time. Go ahead, Johnny, No, I asked you to

1138
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 1: do it. Oh, bro do you do it? Wow? That

1139
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 1: just went to hell real quick because because because Brody,

1140
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 1: you're mainly you're mainly friends with our guests. Yeah, Kell

1141
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 1: knows him to. Our mystery guest is gas Bar Para

1142
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 1: Cone joining us in Colorado, gas Bar, introduce yourself. Thanks, guys, Yeah,

1143
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 1: I guess our paracone. Uh appreciate the opportunity to join

1144
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 1: you guys. Have been in the hunting team and angling

1145
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 1: space for most of my professional career and UH happy

1146
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: to join the conversation today and your your neck deep

1147
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: and wildlife politics for reasons passing all understanding. Yeah, I

1148
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 1: worked for a group called Freestone Strategies, and we're a

1149
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: full spectrum public affairs firm and a large portion of

1150
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:12,439
Speaker 1: my portfolio is involving, uh, you know, the greater realm

1151
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: of wildlife politics. Yeah, alright. I think it's important to

1152
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 1: note also that you you formerly served on Colorado's Wildlife Commission. Yeah.

1153
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 1: I was. Actually I started my tenure when it was

1154
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 1: the former Division of Wildlife. Obviously, Parks and Wildlife merged

1155
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: under the Hick and Loop administration, and I continued to

1156
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:37,680
Speaker 1: serve under the newly formed Colorado Parks and Wildlife for

1157
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 1: four years after that. So, um my, my work continued

1158
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 1: kind of in that space when I became the legislative

1159
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: director for the Department of Natural Resources under Governor Hick

1160
01:06:48,520 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 1: and Loopers. So uh like, like you indicated, I've been

1161
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:54,440
Speaker 1: necked deep in this stuff for the better part of

1162
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: a decade here in Colorado. Good you like that? That

1163
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:01,560
Speaker 1: was one of Okay, now ya, he's gonna do his

1164
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: Yanni's book report book report. Who um, who's verbiage? Who's verbiage?

1165
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 1: Crin is is Escaped about a wolf that escaped the island.

1166
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:31,720
Speaker 1: The articles huh, go ahead, Yanni real curious about that

1167
01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 1: that word. Yeah, this is Canadian broadcasting. They use the

1168
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 1: word escape. It's interesting. Well anyways, Yeah, there was a

1169
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:45,240
Speaker 1: radio colored female wolf on i'le Royale that she was

1170
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 1: brought there from Minnesota. And uh, if everybody remembers, I

1171
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:54,280
Speaker 1: can't go into too much details. I'm not gonna remember properly,

1172
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 1: but I believe there was like too many moves on

1173
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 1: i'le Royale and they brought in some wolves to take

1174
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 1: care of the wolf problem or the moose problem and

1175
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: so on and so forth. I'm guessing this is probably

1176
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 1: part of that. Yeah, hey, do you when you because

1177
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:08,520
Speaker 1: you grew up in Michigan Unity, did you grow up

1178
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 1: saying Isle Royale or we do? We would always call

1179
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 1: it Isle Royal, Isle Royal, probably Royale, I guess after

1180
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 1: maybe I maybe never said it until I was thirty

1181
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 1: years old and had long been gone from Michigan. Yeah,

1182
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:27,080
Speaker 1: you know that that you don't want to get too

1183
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:29,479
Speaker 1: much detail. But like a long time ago, that island

1184
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 1: which is out Lake Superior but sits between Michigan Peninsula Canada.

1185
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 1: It was like a Lynx Caribou eco system. And then

1186
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:41,280
Speaker 1: because it freezes now and then new stuff shows up

1187
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 1: and leaves, and moose got out there. There's like some

1188
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 1: speculation that I don't think people who know there's some

1189
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 1: some people think he says it freezes. He means the

1190
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 1: lake freezes, sorry, which is how a wildlife got out

1191
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 1: to the island and occasionally leaves the island. Yeah, so

1192
01:08:57,920 --> 01:08:59,599
Speaker 1: I had which kind of hard to believe that there's

1193
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:01,240
Speaker 1: like a boo out there at one point in time,

1194
01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 1: like not like a long I mean, in modern times,

1195
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 1: there was caribou um and then everybody, you know, everybody's

1196
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:12,559
Speaker 1: always dying off, and someone new walks out there, and

1197
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:18,680
Speaker 1: then most recently became like tons of moose um. They

1198
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:20,680
Speaker 1: don't want anybody to hunt out there, which and so

1199
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 1: they're trying to control That's actually a whole other story

1200
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:25,519
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into at some point here. Uh. And

1201
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 1: we've talked about a little bit trying to like open

1202
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:30,639
Speaker 1: up the pressure of the park Service to allow hunting

1203
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 1: to bring the moose numbers back down to a more

1204
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:35,800
Speaker 1: manageable thing. But right now, what they're trying to do

1205
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:37,479
Speaker 1: is truck wolves out there. And you think that the

1206
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:41,479
Speaker 1: wolf would be the happiest wolf on the planet. Going

1207
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:43,920
Speaker 1: back to your escape thing, I think it's it's the

1208
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:48,639
Speaker 1: notion that it was collared, captured, brought there. So the

1209
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 1: idea is that like, that's where it's supposed to be

1210
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 1: because it was biologists intentions to remain and then it escaped.

1211
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:02,920
Speaker 1: Different sort of feeling of escape because it was put

1212
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:05,880
Speaker 1: on an island surrounded by, you know, hundreds of miles

1213
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 1: of water, and you would think that there'd be no

1214
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 1: way that this wolf would ever leave that island. But

1215
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:16,120
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen came the Polar Vortex, which when I

1216
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:18,559
Speaker 1: read this, it got me thinking, how come the crazy

1217
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:22,479
Speaker 1: storm that we had like a month ago that killed

1218
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 1: probably thousands of birds in Arkansas and south and all

1219
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:28,960
Speaker 1: kinds of crazy animals in Texas, it never got a

1220
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 1: big crazy name like the Polar Vortex. M Yeah, that's

1221
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:35,840
Speaker 1: a good point. Yeah, you guys that didn't that didn't crossed.

1222
01:10:36,439 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 1: I think they should have dubbed the Great chill Off.

1223
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: You have something or another. So she leaves uh Ile

1224
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:51,720
Speaker 1: Royale or Royal, depending on what part of Michigan you're from,

1225
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:54,800
Speaker 1: and travels all around, crosses the U. S. Canada border

1226
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 1: a few times. All in all, travels thousands of kilometers

1227
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:03,960
Speaker 1: until at some point her radio collar dies and from

1228
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:06,280
Speaker 1: what the people that were watching her can tell you

1229
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 1: that she kept on cruising around and uh, last time

1230
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 1: they had her was near Thunder Bay, which is like

1231
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:19,479
Speaker 1: north west part of Lake superior Um. So yeah, a

1232
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:24,960
Speaker 1: lot lots of traveling. Pretty kind because she went back

1233
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 1: home more or less. But then it was like something

1234
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:33,080
Speaker 1: got the wires got crossed. Man, it just became a wanderer, right,

1235
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 1: but as this next story will show you, they like

1236
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 1: to wander this. Uh, next stories about two year old

1237
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:44,440
Speaker 1: wolf that was collared in bamf and uh he traveled

1238
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:50,559
Speaker 1: all the way from uh Alberta to Montana in five days,

1239
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:56,680
Speaker 1: three hundred miles. Yeah, pretty amazing. It's like you're not

1240
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 1: even stopping to eat, man, or like if you're eating,

1241
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:03,560
Speaker 1: you're eating on the oh yes, scavenging. I'd imagine. I

1242
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 1: don't imagine he like followed it, heard it. I don't know.

1243
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 1: Maybe you run into a pack of deer and get

1244
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 1: lucky and be cool to see his line of travel,

1245
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:13,760
Speaker 1: Like was he just straight line in it for Montana

1246
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:16,320
Speaker 1: or you know, yeah, because I mean that whole like

1247
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:21,799
Speaker 1: Cootney Country is not flat right country. It's mountainous, heavily timbered.

1248
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:29,519
Speaker 1: Uh and uh some big water in there too, three miles. Yeah,

1249
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 1: the hunt, the wolf was killed by a hunter legally

1250
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:35,680
Speaker 1: here in Montana, and uh, that got a lot of

1251
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 1: people's attention. But what a chief scientists for a nonprofit

1252
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:44,880
Speaker 1: called Yellowstone to Yukon says, what you should focus on

1253
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:48,679
Speaker 1: is how cool it is that that wolf was able

1254
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 1: to do that. And then it shows this amazing like

1255
01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:57,639
Speaker 1: corridor and connectivity for wildlife that it can still happen.

1256
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:00,639
Speaker 1: And if a wolf can do that, then ley bears

1257
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:04,559
Speaker 1: can connect between uh, you know, the wilderness of Canada

1258
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:08,040
Speaker 1: and the Yellowstone ecosystem as well, which is really neat

1259
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 1: and it's a hard thing to figure out unless you

1260
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:13,600
Speaker 1: have a dead wolf in this circumstances. That's the thing

1261
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 1: I always think about this is how many animals are

1262
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:19,200
Speaker 1: actually running around with the collar. Like when we were

1263
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:21,320
Speaker 1: caribou hunting this year and I took my boy cariboo hunt,

1264
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 1: we saw hundreds of caribou go by. Okay, I saw

1265
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:28,920
Speaker 1: one with a collar. And that's an intensely studied herd

1266
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 1: where they it's that they have a ton of collars

1267
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 1: and now have people that in the winter full time

1268
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 1: track them. So you watch hundreds of things and one

1269
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 1: goes by the collar in an area where it's like

1270
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 1: they're doing a collaring study. Um, how many things go

1271
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:46,720
Speaker 1: unnoticed because no one has a collar on. But then

1272
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 1: every week there's some crazy story about something wearing a

1273
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:52,640
Speaker 1: collar doing well, you know, like the same journey. So

1274
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 1: all the all the unsung. There's a lot of unsung

1275
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 1: heroes out there. Man, what's going on we don't know about.

1276
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:01,599
Speaker 1: But there's that aree tutors that theory that the collar

1277
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:05,599
Speaker 1: scrambles their brain exactly. There's this lady in Wyoming, her

1278
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:11,559
Speaker 1: dog brought outside of Wyoming, her her dog brought her

1279
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:16,120
Speaker 1: a recently deceased blackfooted ferret. Right, this is like the

1280
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:20,360
Speaker 1: rediscovery of the of living black footed fair That's that's that,

1281
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:22,640
Speaker 1: I mean a while ago. Oh yeah, this this was

1282
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 1: a while ago. But it's like that discovery served a

1283
01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 1: huge purpose that just kind of came back to light recently. Um,

1284
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:36,479
Speaker 1: and it it was because of a dead faret that

1285
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:39,920
Speaker 1: a dog picked up problem. It's like, it's just funny

1286
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 1: how things work. You gotta start with something dad Sometimes Yeah,

1287
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 1: and they cannot and that's like the problem. That's like

1288
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:53,200
Speaker 1: the real Bigfoot problem, right, no dead ones. We got

1289
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:56,120
Speaker 1: a collar one, then we'll know. You put a collar

1290
01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:57,800
Speaker 1: on one of those suns of bitches, all of sudd

1291
01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:00,280
Speaker 1: he's gonna wind up. You know, You're gonna call him

1292
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:02,880
Speaker 1: up wherever, like in Washington where they all live, and

1293
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 1: he's gonna wind up dead on a road in Connecticut

1294
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:08,000
Speaker 1: with that breaking collar around his neck the back of

1295
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:10,840
Speaker 1: a van. He'll just be like, I don't know, dude,

1296
01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 1: they put that collar around me. That has went for it.

1297
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:18,200
Speaker 1: They started walking. But wolves moving and us moving wolves

1298
01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:21,679
Speaker 1: around is why we've got gas bar on. Jeez, that's good, Brodie,

1299
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:26,840
Speaker 1: see that? Yannie, Oh, Yanni. Um, here's a question for

1300
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:31,040
Speaker 1: you about your book report. I've always been familiar with

1301
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:34,200
Speaker 1: the group the Yellowstone to Yukon or is it Yukon

1302
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:38,480
Speaker 1: to Yellowstone Yellowstone Yukon, Which is this, you know, maintaining

1303
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: this travel trying to imagine that you're maintaining a wildlife

1304
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:46,599
Speaker 1: travel corridor. They would connect the greater Yellowstone ecosystem with

1305
01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 1: the you know, the Canadian wilderness and then the vast

1306
01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:56,160
Speaker 1: boreal forest. Uh. But the wolf didn't make it to Yellowstone,

1307
01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 1: And isn't a big problem with the Yellowstone to Yukon

1308
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:04,640
Speaker 1: core or how do you connect sort of the glacier ecosystem,

1309
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:11,960
Speaker 1: like the connectivity between the Glacier Flathead ecosystem, Northern Continental

1310
01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:15,800
Speaker 1: Divide ecosystem and Yellowstone. Like, now, if some guy had

1311
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:18,000
Speaker 1: shot him down by Yellowstone, then I think he'd be like, oh,

1312
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:22,719
Speaker 1: the corridor works. But he had it was hundreds of miles.

1313
01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:27,320
Speaker 1: He didn't make it to Yellowstone. He made it like halfway.

1314
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:30,479
Speaker 1: It's probably at least three dred miles to go, you know. Yeah,

1315
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:34,839
Speaker 1: he still had to cross I ninety, which is proving

1316
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:40,680
Speaker 1: not as a difficult right, Like, yeah, it's a barrier. Um,

1317
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:44,400
Speaker 1: A couple of wildlife overpasses on would would do some

1318
01:16:44,479 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 1: serious wonders. But you know that wolf sniffing distance from

1319
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:54,600
Speaker 1: running all the way down the bitarets um, and you know,

1320
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 1: not having too much of a gap between a cross

1321
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:03,000
Speaker 1: and I fifteen into the y E can see it. Yeah,

1322
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 1: then the wolves made across Interstate eighty from Wyoming into Colorado. Yeh,

1323
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 1: they did the impossible already. Yeah, alright, Brody Jimny bears

1324
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:15,599
Speaker 1: have done that too, right, let's not go there yet.

1325
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:19,200
Speaker 1: You have run run the bitter yeah down, no, no, no,

1326
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:22,960
Speaker 1: I have gone from southern Wyoming into Colorado. Oh by

1327
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 1: government helicopter. Well and catapult, Oh yeah, government catapult that

1328
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:33,320
Speaker 1: we don't know making fun, but we do know about

1329
01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:46,679
Speaker 1: the wolf. Okay, Brody and Yanni run this whole program here.

1330
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 1: Um so last year, gas Bar, when did that go through?

1331
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 1: This year? November? So there there is a ballot initiative

1332
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 1: that passed in Colorado to reintroduce wolves. Not not really

1333
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 1: though you already messed up. I don't think that that's true.

1334
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:08,200
Speaker 1: What's not true about it? I thought it was like,

1335
01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:11,800
Speaker 1: it's not that level of specificity. Well I can let

1336
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:15,439
Speaker 1: gas Bar, you know, talk about it. But anyway, we'll

1337
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 1: clear that out. But at the same time, there is

1338
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:22,880
Speaker 1: a pat now a breeding pack of wolves established in Colorado,

1339
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:25,559
Speaker 1: which is caught. You know, it was too late for

1340
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:29,919
Speaker 1: that to have any impact on the measure that passed.

1341
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 1: But we've got these two things happening concurrently, and we're

1342
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:38,920
Speaker 1: past the point of like the reintroduction is happening. But

1343
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:42,479
Speaker 1: gas Bar, do you want to explain to Steve what

1344
01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:47,799
Speaker 1: what happened? Look? Yeah, like, uh, Okay, the initiation, what

1345
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:52,479
Speaker 1: was the damn initiative proposition? There you go, look at this.

1346
01:18:52,520 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 1: Now he's got the number. Yeah, so you know you're

1347
01:18:56,560 --> 01:19:00,519
Speaker 1: you're both right here. Um. Following this continuous trend of

1348
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 1: ballot box biology that we've seen throughout the West, Uh,

1349
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:10,320
Speaker 1: Colorado voters narrowly past Proposition one fourteen that requires the

1350
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:18,320
Speaker 1: state to reintroduce the northern gray wolf into Colorado. Uh.

1351
01:19:18,360 --> 01:19:21,639
Speaker 1: Well yeah, there's some caveats to this though, of course. UM.

1352
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,960
Speaker 1: You know, it isn't as simple as to say, you know,

1353
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 1: we we passed the proposition, Now we go buy a

1354
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:30,200
Speaker 1: bunch of wolves and drop them off in the state. Um.

1355
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 1: This gets a little bit complicated on it on account

1356
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:35,680
Speaker 1: of a couple of different timing things that happened. Uh,

1357
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:39,719
Speaker 1: most predominantly the ruling that came out of Secretary Bernhardt

1358
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 1: last year delisting the wolf in the lower forty eight.

1359
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:45,679
Speaker 1: That happened also concurrently, of course, while the ballot major

1360
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:48,960
Speaker 1: was in place. So there's a really unique convergence of

1361
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:51,800
Speaker 1: events that um is unfolding for the first time, and

1362
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:54,240
Speaker 1: not a lot of precedents on on how to navigate this.

1363
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:55,800
Speaker 1: And we can get into that in detail if you

1364
01:19:55,800 --> 01:20:00,520
Speaker 1: guys would like, But effectively, what Proposition one fourteen acquired

1365
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:05,120
Speaker 1: UM was for the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission to

1366
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:07,840
Speaker 1: create a plan to reintroduce the wolves, and what they

1367
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:13,599
Speaker 1: need to consider is, uh, the details for restoration, including

1368
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:19,479
Speaker 1: specific selection of donor population, the place, manner and schedule

1369
01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:24,280
Speaker 1: of reintroduction, actions necessary or beneficial from maintaining a self

1370
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:29,679
Speaker 1: sustaining population, and details for management, including distribution of state

1371
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:34,200
Speaker 1: funds to compensate for livestock losses. So, uh, you know,

1372
01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:37,479
Speaker 1: the Commission has some lateral and how they go about

1373
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:41,920
Speaker 1: developing this management plan. They recently just approved about a

1374
01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:46,000
Speaker 1: month ago a broad scope outline that puts some booke

1375
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:50,760
Speaker 1: ins on the process, and that requires the formation of

1376
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:53,160
Speaker 1: three things, the first of which is the hiring of

1377
01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 1: a third party facilitator, the second of which is the

1378
01:20:56,439 --> 01:20:59,360
Speaker 1: creation of a working group, which is kind of the

1379
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:02,360
Speaker 1: social amen of all of this, and then a scientific

1380
01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:06,600
Speaker 1: technical group, all of which will advise the Commission and

1381
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:10,160
Speaker 1: the development of that final plan. Hey, gas bar can

1382
01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:13,960
Speaker 1: before we get too deep into the that policy stuff,

1383
01:21:15,080 --> 01:21:17,800
Speaker 1: do you want to talk about kind of the the

1384
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:21,479
Speaker 1: wrenches that we're getting thrown into the process. Like just

1385
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:27,559
Speaker 1: recently in regards to what Polus government Polis said as

1386
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:31,200
Speaker 1: well as how it was going to be, there was

1387
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:34,200
Speaker 1: some speculation that hunters and anglers were going to fund

1388
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 1: this thing and like that. These are the reasons why

1389
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:41,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people were upset. Yeah, I think that's

1390
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:45,719
Speaker 1: exactly right, Um, and I share that sense of frustration. Um.

1391
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:51,280
Speaker 1: The language in the ballot was relatively arbitrary, associated with

1392
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:55,680
Speaker 1: who was responsible from a fiduciary and financial perspective, UH,

1393
01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 1: to pay for the implementation of prop One fourteen and

1394
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:04,160
Speaker 1: why it does allow for um donations and contributions from

1395
01:22:04,200 --> 01:22:08,000
Speaker 1: third parties as well as the opportunity for an appropriation

1396
01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:11,840
Speaker 1: for from the General Assembly to the Division to pay

1397
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:15,320
Speaker 1: for all of this. Absent any of that action, the

1398
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:17,799
Speaker 1: plan has to be implemented on the backs of dollars

1399
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:21,080
Speaker 1: generated through the sale of hunting and fishing licenses. And

1400
01:22:21,280 --> 01:22:23,840
Speaker 1: you know that's a frustration dust, not only because I

1401
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:26,360
Speaker 1: think it flies in the face of this general underlying

1402
01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:31,439
Speaker 1: sentiment of Pittman, Robertson and Dingle Johnson. Um. You know

1403
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:34,080
Speaker 1: it's worth noting, of course, the sportsmen of a long

1404
01:22:34,200 --> 01:22:39,160
Speaker 1: history of being willing to underwrite wildlife and conservation programs,

1405
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:41,800
Speaker 1: so long as as those revenues go back to the

1406
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:45,479
Speaker 1: perpetuation of the sport. That doesn't seem to be the

1407
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:49,760
Speaker 1: case in this instance. And so um. Last year, during

1408
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:53,559
Speaker 1: the legislative session, shortly after the passage of Prop One fourteen,

1409
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:56,760
Speaker 1: we went to a couple of members um in the

1410
01:22:56,800 --> 01:22:59,640
Speaker 1: Colorado General Assembly and had asked them to draft and

1411
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:05,840
Speaker 1: pass legislation that would have required the General Assembly, via

1412
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:09,320
Speaker 1: taxpayer dollars, to come up with the revenue sources for

1413
01:23:09,360 --> 01:23:13,880
Speaker 1: the implementation of Proper one fourteen. Unfortunately, COVID does what

1414
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:16,160
Speaker 1: COVID does and gotten the way of it and destroyed

1415
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:19,559
Speaker 1: the whole process. Um. So here we are again this year,

1416
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:23,280
Speaker 1: back at the legislature with a similar bill requesting that

1417
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:26,280
Speaker 1: no general or I'm sorry, that no sportsman dollars be

1418
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:31,120
Speaker 1: made available for the implementation or the restoration of wolves.

1419
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 1: Want to be clear, though, you know, this is not

1420
01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:38,360
Speaker 1: an effort to effectively relitigate or overturn Proposition one fourteen.

1421
01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:41,080
Speaker 1: It is is merely a way to identify an alternative

1422
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:44,240
Speaker 1: revenue source. Let me let me hear with a couple

1423
01:23:44,240 --> 01:23:46,120
Speaker 1: of questions here, just so I can understand this better.

1424
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:54,040
Speaker 1: Why did the arrival of wolves walking in on their

1425
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:59,280
Speaker 1: own four ft into the state, Why did that not

1426
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:02,479
Speaker 1: sort of gait and undo this whole conversation, Like, if

1427
01:24:02,479 --> 01:24:06,280
Speaker 1: the goal was to reintroduce wolves, why would you not

1428
01:24:06,360 --> 01:24:13,040
Speaker 1: be just ecstatic that it happened? You know, I'll say naturally.

1429
01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 1: I mean it happened on the back of the Yellowstone reintroduction,

1430
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:20,240
Speaker 1: but that was a long time ago. It's accepted now

1431
01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:24,840
Speaker 1: you had a natural reintroduction. Why why why is that

1432
01:24:24,880 --> 01:24:28,200
Speaker 1: not just viewed as a victory and that it puts

1433
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:33,160
Speaker 1: to end the conversation. I think from our perspective, it

1434
01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:36,000
Speaker 1: is kind of viewed as a victory. Um. You know

1435
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:41,839
Speaker 1: that discovery occurred after Proposition one fourteen was on the ballot.

1436
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:46,400
Speaker 1: What simultaneously happened, as I mentioned, was Secretary Bernhardt issued

1437
01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:49,400
Speaker 1: a rule delisting the wolves in the lower forty. And

1438
01:24:49,479 --> 01:24:54,160
Speaker 1: so where we stand now is the Commission has got

1439
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:57,519
Speaker 1: this obligation by the people of Colorado to move forward

1440
01:24:57,560 --> 01:25:02,000
Speaker 1: with a plan. Um, because we are in a scenario

1441
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:05,200
Speaker 1: where the wolf is not listed. Uh. And back to

1442
01:25:05,240 --> 01:25:07,880
Speaker 1: the point that you had raised, Brody, the Governor had

1443
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:10,840
Speaker 1: made a request of the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission

1444
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:15,200
Speaker 1: to expedite the timeline for the reintroduction effort of Prop.

1445
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:18,040
Speaker 1: One fourteen. The reason in the thinking behind that, I

1446
01:25:18,080 --> 01:25:22,160
Speaker 1: can assume is that I don't think there's anybody who

1447
01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:24,160
Speaker 1: is of the opinion that the wolf is not likely

1448
01:25:24,200 --> 01:25:27,000
Speaker 1: to find itself back on the list in the near future.

1449
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:30,360
Speaker 1: And so there's this narrow window of opportunity where you

1450
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:33,519
Speaker 1: aren't subject to the endangered species laws and rules that

1451
01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:40,280
Speaker 1: governed reintroduction like took place in in Idaho and Wyoming, UM,

1452
01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:45,120
Speaker 1: And so you know, hypothetically there's nothing legally that would

1453
01:25:45,160 --> 01:25:48,400
Speaker 1: preclude them from just going and purchasing wolves and dropping

1454
01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:53,920
Speaker 1: them on the landscape. UM. Fortunately, the Commission, I think

1455
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:57,479
Speaker 1: so good wisdom and pursuing what they're calling it a

1456
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,880
Speaker 1: preliminary tin J, which is a section of the the

1457
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:04,840
Speaker 1: s A. But it effectively, UM would establish a plan

1458
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:07,599
Speaker 1: that in the occasion the wolves were to get relisted again,

1459
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:10,640
Speaker 1: it would give some give the state some flexibility on

1460
01:26:10,680 --> 01:26:16,360
Speaker 1: the management prescriptions, particularly with respect to lethal take. So yeah,

1461
01:26:16,439 --> 01:26:19,439
Speaker 1: you know, there's a question as to you know, what

1462
01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:23,639
Speaker 1: a determination from US Fish and Wildlife Service UM would mean,

1463
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:30,160
Speaker 1: because these reintroduced populations traditionally have been UM non essential

1464
01:26:30,680 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 1: separate populations. But now that we have an established population

1465
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:37,639
Speaker 1: in the state, there's a question as to what does

1466
01:26:37,640 --> 01:26:41,080
Speaker 1: that mean UM for a reintroduction effort, and we're an

1467
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:45,200
Speaker 1: uncharted territory here, it's relatively unclear what US Fish and

1468
01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:49,360
Speaker 1: Wildlife Service might say about that. Is So you guys

1469
01:26:49,400 --> 01:26:52,719
Speaker 1: think that the Biden administration is going to turn around

1470
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:55,960
Speaker 1: and UH is going to turn around and and re

1471
01:26:57,360 --> 01:27:02,759
Speaker 1: like relist wolves. They did include it on their Rural

1472
01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:06,240
Speaker 1: review UM coming out of this every year and incoming

1473
01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:09,439
Speaker 1: administration has the opportunity to take a look at the

1474
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:12,439
Speaker 1: rules that were issued under a previous administration, and they

1475
01:27:12,479 --> 01:27:15,599
Speaker 1: do have the authority to overturn those. I think what's

1476
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:19,879
Speaker 1: more likely to happen is that a judicial determination will

1477
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:23,800
Speaker 1: result in them going back on the list. Man. As

1478
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:27,680
Speaker 1: far as the it's not just as far as like

1479
01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:30,200
Speaker 1: the FEDS to use the broad term, but like the

1480
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:35,160
Speaker 1: s A in regards to reintroduction, right, it's not just

1481
01:27:35,240 --> 01:27:37,800
Speaker 1: the presence of wolves in the state, but it's the

1482
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:41,360
Speaker 1: health of that population. Right. So isn't there a lingering

1483
01:27:41,439 --> 01:27:47,080
Speaker 1: question of like we're gonna do some uh uh some

1484
01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:53,240
Speaker 1: some damn studies this spring and and see if we

1485
01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:56,640
Speaker 1: can't howl up a bunch of wolf puppies in the

1486
01:27:56,680 --> 01:28:01,479
Speaker 1: Stata why or in the state of Colorado. Yeah, I

1487
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:05,439
Speaker 1: think those are still slightly separate discussions though, right, because

1488
01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:10,880
Speaker 1: the statutory mandate that came from the voters, uh is

1489
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:15,400
Speaker 1: a question that's disconnected from the evaluation of es A. Right,

1490
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:20,120
Speaker 1: there's not necessarily a scenario where a Fish and Wildlife

1491
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:23,840
Speaker 1: or a FED decision in this case, would have the

1492
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:28,320
Speaker 1: effect of circumventing the responsibility that the Parks and Wildlife

1493
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:30,920
Speaker 1: Commission is tasked with right now, So I think they,

1494
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:35,639
Speaker 1: you know, exist independently, and how they come together and

1495
01:28:35,960 --> 01:28:41,280
Speaker 1: ultimately approving a reintroduction effort is the question. And it's

1496
01:28:41,320 --> 01:28:44,880
Speaker 1: anyone's guess how those two will be evaluated, uh, concurrently

1497
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:52,320
Speaker 1: by the FEDS. Gasbar just recently correct me if I'm wrong. Um,

1498
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:55,640
Speaker 1: we found out that it's not going to be a

1499
01:28:55,680 --> 01:28:58,639
Speaker 1: situation where they just start cutting wolves loose this year,

1500
01:28:58,680 --> 01:29:03,200
Speaker 1: that they that, like Governor polls suggested, like, they have

1501
01:29:03,400 --> 01:29:06,760
Speaker 1: to follow the planning and procedure process that was outlined

1502
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:11,160
Speaker 1: in the initiative. Yeah. The thinking is that this will

1503
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:14,360
Speaker 1: occur over a three year timeline, and there's a there's

1504
01:29:14,400 --> 01:29:16,879
Speaker 1: a huge social element to this, as you might imagine,

1505
01:29:17,040 --> 01:29:22,000
Speaker 1: just given the politics that surround reintroduction efforts, particularly with

1506
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:25,840
Speaker 1: respect to wolves, of course. But um, yeah, so the

1507
01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:29,360
Speaker 1: Science and Technical Committee presumably will dedicate a lot of

1508
01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:33,959
Speaker 1: time to identifying what is suitable habitat how the interplay

1509
01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:36,680
Speaker 1: between the existing wolf population in the state and this

1510
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:43,800
Speaker 1: wholly separate introduced population might exist. Um. And you know

1511
01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:47,200
Speaker 1: collectively that that social element and the science and technical

1512
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:52,519
Speaker 1: element um will help script the ultimate management plan. And

1513
01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:55,400
Speaker 1: the thinking is that that will be that will take

1514
01:29:55,400 --> 01:29:59,720
Speaker 1: place over roughly a three year timeline. UM. The statue,

1515
01:30:00,640 --> 01:30:02,960
Speaker 1: the language, and the proposition says that they need to

1516
01:30:03,000 --> 01:30:05,720
Speaker 1: take the steps necessary to introduce wolves by the end

1517
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 1: of That doesn't necessarily imply that wolves need to be

1518
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:12,799
Speaker 1: on the ground at that date, but that the process

1519
01:30:12,840 --> 01:30:16,200
Speaker 1: for the reintroduction needs to be concluded and the effort

1520
01:30:16,240 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 1: needs to commence quickly thereafter. You know, I'm gonna get

1521
01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:25,519
Speaker 1: to a rumor I heard as beyond rumor, but um

1522
01:30:25,720 --> 01:30:31,040
Speaker 1: an idea about different strains. Um, well, some people call

1523
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:35,240
Speaker 1: subspecies of wolves. But before I said that, I'll point

1524
01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:42,840
Speaker 1: out the historically wolves existed in a continuous band. Um.

1525
01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:45,760
Speaker 1: You know there there there weren't gaps and populations, right,

1526
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:50,080
Speaker 1: So you had these large, you know, these large gray

1527
01:30:50,120 --> 01:30:52,679
Speaker 1: wolves in the north, and then you had what we've

1528
01:30:52,680 --> 01:30:55,720
Speaker 1: come to call the you know, much smaller Mexican gray

1529
01:30:55,760 --> 01:30:59,880
Speaker 1: wolf from the south, and and you had these variations,

1530
01:31:00,520 --> 01:31:03,960
Speaker 1: but there weren't hard edges between the populations. Isn't there

1531
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:07,679
Speaker 1: some issue in Colorado where it seems that the people

1532
01:31:07,720 --> 01:31:12,240
Speaker 1: that are really driving for the reintroduction would have been

1533
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:16,719
Speaker 1: angling towards having it be Mexican gray wolves in the south,

1534
01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:18,800
Speaker 1: but the ones that showed up on their own, are

1535
01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:23,920
Speaker 1: you know, a larger, different northern animal. Is there is

1536
01:31:23,920 --> 01:31:26,559
Speaker 1: there some friction there on that because I know the

1537
01:31:26,560 --> 01:31:29,200
Speaker 1: proposition doesn't get into that. But wasn't that the intention

1538
01:31:30,040 --> 01:31:33,439
Speaker 1: would be there would be Mexican gray wolves. There's been

1539
01:31:33,439 --> 01:31:38,320
Speaker 1: a lot of discussion around that. Um. It's interesting because

1540
01:31:38,760 --> 01:31:42,400
Speaker 1: the all of Colorado is in the historic range of

1541
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:45,559
Speaker 1: the northern gray wolf. That is not true for for

1542
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:49,200
Speaker 1: the Mexican wolf. And so I think from a um

1543
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:53,200
Speaker 1: you know, e s a standard perspective, the recovery of

1544
01:31:53,240 --> 01:31:55,599
Speaker 1: the northern gray wolves is a is a more likely

1545
01:31:55,680 --> 01:31:59,080
Speaker 1: scenario in Colorado. But you know, there has there has

1546
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:01,400
Speaker 1: been a lot of conversation and about you know, what

1547
01:32:01,439 --> 01:32:03,240
Speaker 1: it might mean in the occasion that they were to

1548
01:32:03,360 --> 01:32:07,400
Speaker 1: cross pollenate. Um. You know, if if northern gray wolves

1549
01:32:07,439 --> 01:32:09,439
Speaker 1: were to migrate to the southern part of the state,

1550
01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:15,200
Speaker 1: would there be conflict between the Mexican wolf population, and

1551
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:17,479
Speaker 1: so you know, there have been even comments from some

1552
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:20,439
Speaker 1: of the members of the Commission seeking to shift this

1553
01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:23,679
Speaker 1: thinking from the Northern gray wolf to to the Mexican wolf.

1554
01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:27,679
Speaker 1: As it stands currently, I think it's more likely that

1555
01:32:28,320 --> 01:32:32,559
Speaker 1: the pursuit for reintroduction will likely fall with the Northern

1556
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:37,400
Speaker 1: gray And there there's another level of conflict, right because

1557
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:43,320
Speaker 1: the Mexican wolf is listed and the recovery efforts are

1558
01:32:43,400 --> 01:32:48,200
Speaker 1: like there there's a legal conundrum there, right, It's like, well, no,

1559
01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:52,160
Speaker 1: you're legally bound by the s A to recover this

1560
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:55,640
Speaker 1: wolf in these areas. And like how it's written and

1561
01:32:55,680 --> 01:32:58,040
Speaker 1: what happens when gene pools start getting mad, Well, that's

1562
01:32:58,080 --> 01:32:59,920
Speaker 1: what I understanding, Like all the all the hassle they

1563
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:03,360
Speaker 1: put in over the years, um, And you know, I

1564
01:33:03,360 --> 01:33:06,160
Speaker 1: don't it doesn't bother me all all the work we

1565
01:33:06,240 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 1: put in over the years to identify range, get source

1566
01:33:09,200 --> 01:33:13,120
Speaker 1: population animals, and re established the Mexican wolf two, then

1567
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:16,519
Speaker 1: it ain't It's not far from the San Juan Mountains

1568
01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:19,000
Speaker 1: to you know, so it seems like it's it seems

1569
01:33:19,040 --> 01:33:21,479
Speaker 1: like you'd probably you know, I guess some people might

1570
01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:22,920
Speaker 1: point out and be like, they don't really care about

1571
01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:25,200
Speaker 1: those level of details. If it's wolves as wolves, and

1572
01:33:25,200 --> 01:33:28,000
Speaker 1: then you gotta stop calling them Mexican wolves, right. You

1573
01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:32,320
Speaker 1: need the old high school dance biological chaperones out there?

1574
01:33:32,800 --> 01:33:40,800
Speaker 1: Whoa you too? If you if you had uh here,

1575
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:42,920
Speaker 1: I'll save my crystal. I'd like to say my crystal

1576
01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:45,840
Speaker 1: ball question for later. Go ahead, Brodie. Oh, I mean,

1577
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:48,679
Speaker 1: I think we've we've hit it pretty good as far

1578
01:33:48,720 --> 01:33:52,360
Speaker 1: as what's going on. I mean, why did you Colorado

1579
01:33:52,439 --> 01:33:56,440
Speaker 1: people decided to put this up to I'm a registered

1580
01:33:56,479 --> 01:34:01,920
Speaker 1: Montana voter jack um, But yeah, I spent a lot

1581
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:04,080
Speaker 1: of time there, and I was happy to live in

1582
01:34:04,080 --> 01:34:07,080
Speaker 1: a state where I didn't have to compete with wolves

1583
01:34:07,720 --> 01:34:10,280
Speaker 1: to kill an elk, you know, But then up here

1584
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:14,280
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, there's plenty of elk getting killed.

1585
01:34:14,320 --> 01:34:16,320
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I'm gonna get crucified for saying

1586
01:34:16,360 --> 01:34:19,240
Speaker 1: that that. Here. Here, here, Here's how I always explain

1587
01:34:19,280 --> 01:34:28,920
Speaker 1: to people. Um Alaska has wolves across nineties some of

1588
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:33,160
Speaker 1: their historic range. They have grizzlies across the entirety of

1589
01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:36,200
Speaker 1: the historic range. Why does everybody want to go honey

1590
01:34:36,200 --> 01:34:38,439
Speaker 1: in Alaska? I don't know. I always tell people you

1591
01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:40,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't like and you would like this. Wolves a load

1592
01:34:40,840 --> 01:34:43,080
Speaker 1: of plays things with teeth everything. There's wolves everywhere, so

1593
01:34:43,120 --> 01:34:45,120
Speaker 1: there must not be any animals there. But I do

1594
01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:49,240
Speaker 1: have the wolf. But everybody wants to go there and hunt.

1595
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:52,160
Speaker 1: So it's like it is a hard thing for people

1596
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:54,240
Speaker 1: to explain it. You'd be like, wolves will be the

1597
01:34:54,320 --> 01:34:56,880
Speaker 1: end of hunting in Colorado and and for a while,

1598
01:34:57,360 --> 01:35:00,439
Speaker 1: it'll see if they come on hard because because it

1599
01:35:00,840 --> 01:35:03,000
Speaker 1: there's a learning curve. There's a learning curve on the elk,

1600
01:35:03,080 --> 01:35:04,880
Speaker 1: like when when they brought him into the when they

1601
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:09,200
Speaker 1: brought him into the Greater Yellowstone area, I mean you

1602
01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:13,080
Speaker 1: saw two thirds drop offs and elk populations. I mean,

1603
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:16,160
Speaker 1: they they do not understand, like hey look at that

1604
01:35:16,200 --> 01:35:19,640
Speaker 1: dog and and all of a sudden, Yeah, So my

1605
01:35:19,640 --> 01:35:23,120
Speaker 1: my concerns in Colorado are they have. There are these

1606
01:35:23,280 --> 01:35:27,040
Speaker 1: large elk herds that right now they can't figure out

1607
01:35:27,120 --> 01:35:29,800
Speaker 1: what the hell is going on, Like the kaff recruitment

1608
01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:33,920
Speaker 1: is very poor, and these elk herds are their numbers

1609
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:37,879
Speaker 1: are going down, and those elk herds are in areas

1610
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:40,920
Speaker 1: where wolves are gonna end up. For sure it is

1611
01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:45,240
Speaker 1: gonna Yeah, it will. It's like, no more things piss

1612
01:35:45,280 --> 01:35:46,960
Speaker 1: out of them. But I don't. I think it's it'll

1613
01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:50,080
Speaker 1: knock the piss out of them, but it won't be

1614
01:35:50,080 --> 01:35:55,880
Speaker 1: the end. No, no, Yanni, you moved. Yeah, I we've

1615
01:35:55,920 --> 01:35:59,320
Speaker 1: got top are we are furnace is getting fixed. Finally

1616
01:35:59,320 --> 01:36:00,960
Speaker 1: we've been out of Hea for like two weeks and

1617
01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:03,400
Speaker 1: the dudes coming over. So he's gonna be in the

1618
01:36:03,439 --> 01:36:06,479
Speaker 1: basement where I was at. Congratulations. And what else do

1619
01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:11,920
Speaker 1: we need to point out? Though? About your Yellowstone? Uh?

1620
01:36:12,240 --> 01:36:16,200
Speaker 1: You know Northern heard of Yellowstone that dropped by two thirds. Uh,

1621
01:36:16,240 --> 01:36:19,040
Speaker 1: there was other factors, they think now there was like

1622
01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:24,800
Speaker 1: a perfect storm of habitat a super high, unhealthy population

1623
01:36:25,280 --> 01:36:29,040
Speaker 1: and then the wolves coming in that produced that precipitous drop.

1624
01:36:29,439 --> 01:36:32,120
Speaker 1: And then it's you can't just say because the wolves

1625
01:36:32,120 --> 01:36:34,200
Speaker 1: showed up that that's what did it. It was there

1626
01:36:34,479 --> 01:36:37,280
Speaker 1: was some coincidence there. Well, there's it's never one thing.

1627
01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:40,519
Speaker 1: But when you throw one more thing on top of

1628
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:43,200
Speaker 1: those herds that are hurting in Colorado, I mean, the

1629
01:36:43,560 --> 01:36:47,000
Speaker 1: end results not gonna be good. I wouldn't imagine. Well,

1630
01:36:47,040 --> 01:36:49,479
Speaker 1: and you honestly touched on an interesting point there, right.

1631
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:51,759
Speaker 1: A lot of the proponents of this have been using

1632
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:56,400
Speaker 1: this trophic cascade as the baseline for why this makes sense.

1633
01:36:57,080 --> 01:37:01,519
Speaker 1: And you know, I think by all accounts, some of

1634
01:37:01,560 --> 01:37:06,000
Speaker 1: the trophic cascade argument has been overblown. Um. You know

1635
01:37:06,200 --> 01:37:12,120
Speaker 1: we've learned since the introductions. Can you explain trophic cascade? Please? Yeah,

1636
01:37:12,160 --> 01:37:16,200
Speaker 1: the trophis cascade is effectively this idea, and as far

1637
01:37:16,240 --> 01:37:20,240
Speaker 1: as I understand it, um, it originated out of this

1638
01:37:20,240 --> 01:37:24,080
Speaker 1: this concept that predators and the relationship that they have

1639
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:29,920
Speaker 1: with prey can improve the ecological conditions of a select environment. Um.

1640
01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:32,519
Speaker 1: It was reading the other day a study about some

1641
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:34,320
Speaker 1: of the early thinking about this, and they were talking

1642
01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:39,400
Speaker 1: about the relationship between spiders who scared grasshoppers improving grass

1643
01:37:39,439 --> 01:37:43,240
Speaker 1: conditions in a unique area. And of course, you know

1644
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:48,759
Speaker 1: when wolves were introduced into Yellowstone that that scientific theory

1645
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:52,599
Speaker 1: was quickly overlaid and a lot of the ecological improvement

1646
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:55,880
Speaker 1: in the Yellowstone area has been attributable alone to the

1647
01:37:55,920 --> 01:38:00,320
Speaker 1: reintroduction of wolves. There's been a subsequent series of these

1648
01:38:00,360 --> 01:38:03,440
Speaker 1: that have indicated that well, yeah, they certainly have contributed

1649
01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:08,120
Speaker 1: to a degree of the improvement. Um, it seems a

1650
01:38:08,320 --> 01:38:13,120
Speaker 1: bit overstated to claim that a soul species is accountable

1651
01:38:13,160 --> 01:38:16,160
Speaker 1: for all of the improvement that we have seen. Um

1652
01:38:16,560 --> 01:38:18,920
Speaker 1: at our Net, who's the chief scientist for t RCP,

1653
01:38:20,200 --> 01:38:23,120
Speaker 1: was explaining to me that, you know, wolves very seldomly

1654
01:38:23,240 --> 01:38:27,280
Speaker 1: changed their eating behabits, habits or their their food preference um,

1655
01:38:27,360 --> 01:38:31,160
Speaker 1: specifically with relation to aspen and willows, which a lot

1656
01:38:31,200 --> 01:38:34,120
Speaker 1: of the trophic cascade argument has been based on on

1657
01:38:34,200 --> 01:38:38,920
Speaker 1: account of wolves being present. And so you know, undeniably

1658
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:43,320
Speaker 1: there there could be circumstances where wolves dispersing um wildlife

1659
01:38:43,320 --> 01:38:47,559
Speaker 1: populations to other areas and disrupting the concentration that we

1660
01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:51,080
Speaker 1: see in winter grounds might be beneficial to the health.

1661
01:38:51,160 --> 01:38:53,240
Speaker 1: The other piece too, that the proponents have been talking

1662
01:38:53,280 --> 01:38:56,639
Speaker 1: about is the potential benefit of the introduction of wolves

1663
01:38:56,680 --> 01:38:59,200
Speaker 1: to the c w D problem that we have in Colorado.

1664
01:38:59,840 --> 01:39:03,040
Speaker 1: And again, um, you know, very likely maybe the case

1665
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:06,160
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's relatively fair to say that

1666
01:39:06,240 --> 01:39:11,200
Speaker 1: the wolves have this innate sense of ability to to

1667
01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:16,559
Speaker 1: peel off the weaker prey in a population. Um, as

1668
01:39:16,600 --> 01:39:18,439
Speaker 1: far as I'm aware, and I need to state that

1669
01:39:18,479 --> 01:39:21,639
Speaker 1: I'm not a biologist, but it seems a little bit

1670
01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:24,080
Speaker 1: far fetched to me as well to think that, you know,

1671
01:39:24,120 --> 01:39:27,240
Speaker 1: the introduction of wolves in Colorado would result in in

1672
01:39:27,280 --> 01:39:30,519
Speaker 1: the stop of the spread or wholesale turnaround in the

1673
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:34,200
Speaker 1: c w D conditions that we have. So yeah, could

1674
01:39:34,439 --> 01:39:37,280
Speaker 1: could there be some benefits? Sure, Um, I just don't

1675
01:39:37,320 --> 01:39:43,120
Speaker 1: find those to be the baseline, uh scientific explanation for

1676
01:39:43,160 --> 01:39:46,320
Speaker 1: the reintroduction that others have claimed. Oh that the scene

1677
01:39:46,320 --> 01:39:48,679
Speaker 1: that d thing is a joke, man, We've talked about

1678
01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:50,959
Speaker 1: that before too. Is like the animals are the animals

1679
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:57,599
Speaker 1: are infected for sometimes years before their symptomatic It's such

1680
01:39:57,640 --> 01:39:59,280
Speaker 1: a joke. And then the thing that they you know,

1681
01:39:59,320 --> 01:40:01,760
Speaker 1: and I'm about an have wolf person, but let's let's

1682
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:03,400
Speaker 1: let's at least talk with a little bit of like,

1683
01:40:04,280 --> 01:40:07,240
Speaker 1: you know, have it be slightly reality tinged when we

1684
01:40:07,240 --> 01:40:09,479
Speaker 1: talk about it. This idea that they you know, this

1685
01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:13,800
Speaker 1: this Farley Moat oversimplification that came from the movie Um,

1686
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:15,800
Speaker 1: you know the never cry wolf thing that they like

1687
01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:21,760
Speaker 1: trimm disease from the herd. They prey on calves and

1688
01:40:21,840 --> 01:40:25,800
Speaker 1: pregnant females of pregnant females, your most valuable animal. It's like,

1689
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:29,679
Speaker 1: I understand, like it's fine to like wolves, but why

1690
01:40:29,680 --> 01:40:32,800
Speaker 1: can't we just can't just like them as what they

1691
01:40:32,800 --> 01:40:36,280
Speaker 1: are and not act like there's like these magical creatures. Well,

1692
01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:39,559
Speaker 1: the trophic cascade argument is does have a very strong

1693
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:45,080
Speaker 1: correlation to systems in which people have been removed. So

1694
01:40:45,320 --> 01:40:48,960
Speaker 1: this that's not a joke, right. It's like, if you

1695
01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:52,920
Speaker 1: can the trophic cascade argument in in a vacuum in

1696
01:40:52,960 --> 01:40:57,479
Speaker 1: which human beings don't exist, works great. You apply that

1697
01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:03,400
Speaker 1: onto a system that's highly highly managed for wildlife over

1698
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:10,320
Speaker 1: human use interaction, like a national park. Um, you can

1699
01:41:10,320 --> 01:41:13,360
Speaker 1: see it like applied there and see how yep, these

1700
01:41:13,439 --> 01:41:16,479
Speaker 1: dots can connect. But it doesn't do us all that

1701
01:41:16,600 --> 01:41:22,599
Speaker 1: much good in working situations where you know, human beings

1702
01:41:22,640 --> 01:41:25,280
Speaker 1: are active on the landscape. Yeah, it's like that that

1703
01:41:25,640 --> 01:41:29,639
Speaker 1: quote we talked about before describing Yellowstone is blank um

1704
01:41:30,080 --> 01:41:34,720
Speaker 1: square miles of paradise surrounded by reality. Brody kind of

1705
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:36,720
Speaker 1: hit on an interesting point. Where Brody talked about not

1706
01:41:36,760 --> 01:41:39,040
Speaker 1: wanting to compete with wolves, and I think it's funny

1707
01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:46,160
Speaker 1: that how it's funny how much people tiptoe around that. Sure,

1708
01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:48,160
Speaker 1: I mean, but I don't think there's anything wrong with

1709
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:51,880
Speaker 1: saying that, UM. I don't think there's anything wrong was

1710
01:41:51,920 --> 01:41:57,560
Speaker 1: saying that that I value um having a resource to

1711
01:41:57,600 --> 01:42:01,240
Speaker 1: be available to people, at least the knowledge I'm saying, like, yes,

1712
01:42:01,360 --> 01:42:04,360
Speaker 1: I think that I like having elk, and like I'm

1713
01:42:04,400 --> 01:42:08,160
Speaker 1: fine having elk and deer on the landscape because people

1714
01:42:08,200 --> 01:42:12,760
Speaker 1: want them and we have like regulated legal hunting for them,

1715
01:42:12,800 --> 01:42:15,560
Speaker 1: and so I'm fine having to be that we acknowledge that.

1716
01:42:15,680 --> 01:42:18,800
Speaker 1: But people act like it's like it's it's a taboo perspective.

1717
01:42:20,200 --> 01:42:22,240
Speaker 1: I like eating milk, And I think that there's a

1718
01:42:22,240 --> 01:42:25,120
Speaker 1: lot of people in the wolf reintroduction world that don't

1719
01:42:25,160 --> 01:42:28,439
Speaker 1: mind that are in the back of their head. They'll

1720
01:42:28,439 --> 01:42:29,760
Speaker 1: never admit it. In the back of the head. They

1721
01:42:29,800 --> 01:42:31,360
Speaker 1: do kind of like to stick it to hunters a

1722
01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:33,320
Speaker 1: little bit like this is one guy like that one

1723
01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:36,000
Speaker 1: of the chief marketing officers, like the CMO of the

1724
01:42:36,080 --> 01:42:39,240
Speaker 1: wolf world, even what he called he talks about the

1725
01:42:39,240 --> 01:42:43,479
Speaker 1: recreational big game killing industry. Like that's his viewpoint on hunting.

1726
01:42:44,240 --> 01:42:45,640
Speaker 1: And I think he's like he used to hunt, but

1727
01:42:45,680 --> 01:42:49,000
Speaker 1: then he quit. Um, and that's like how he typifies

1728
01:42:49,040 --> 01:42:51,479
Speaker 1: the hunting world to say, like, oh, the only people

1729
01:42:51,479 --> 01:42:53,240
Speaker 1: that that don't want a bunch of wolves is the

1730
01:42:53,240 --> 01:42:57,320
Speaker 1: recreational big game killing industry. Um, as though it's like

1731
01:42:57,400 --> 01:43:00,479
Speaker 1: naughty to go hunting. But I can say this because

1732
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:04,880
Speaker 1: at one point I did hunt so peasant or something.

1733
01:43:07,360 --> 01:43:10,760
Speaker 1: Oh I don't know, man, tell me why, Like, give

1734
01:43:10,760 --> 01:43:12,800
Speaker 1: me your perspective on it, Like can you talk like

1735
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:15,240
Speaker 1: as a person or you gotta stay all official gas bar?

1736
01:43:16,280 --> 01:43:19,439
Speaker 1: Oh no, hit me, what's your question? Sell me? I'm

1737
01:43:19,439 --> 01:43:22,000
Speaker 1: not liking wolves in Colorado unless you don't even care

1738
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:25,560
Speaker 1: to sell me on that. Yeah. I think the discussion

1739
01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:28,600
Speaker 1: we're having here really is whether or not a reintroduction

1740
01:43:28,680 --> 01:43:32,400
Speaker 1: is appropriate. Right. Look, I mean wolves are coming down, Um,

1741
01:43:32,439 --> 01:43:35,080
Speaker 1: they've migrated in. It's not going to be long before

1742
01:43:35,120 --> 01:43:38,400
Speaker 1: we have an established pack in Colorado and they're going

1743
01:43:38,439 --> 01:43:42,120
Speaker 1: to coexist. I think that question is a foregone conclusion

1744
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:46,439
Speaker 1: at this point. Um. You know I'm sympathetic to what

1745
01:43:46,479 --> 01:43:48,280
Speaker 1: you said. Look, you know I'm a big game hunter.

1746
01:43:48,360 --> 01:43:51,120
Speaker 1: I spend a month in the field during archery season,

1747
01:43:51,320 --> 01:43:53,920
Speaker 1: chasing elk every year, and it's my passion and it's

1748
01:43:53,920 --> 01:43:55,320
Speaker 1: what I like to do. And I would be lying

1749
01:43:55,360 --> 01:43:58,800
Speaker 1: if I said anything other than I'm worried about the

1750
01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:02,200
Speaker 1: impact it will have on the big game populations. But

1751
01:44:02,320 --> 01:44:04,200
Speaker 1: I don't think you can evaluate all of this in

1752
01:44:04,280 --> 01:44:07,880
Speaker 1: a vacuum either, right, Brody touched on it. We've got

1753
01:44:08,360 --> 01:44:11,960
Speaker 1: I live in northwest Colorado and we've got tremendous problems

1754
01:44:12,000 --> 01:44:14,160
Speaker 1: with both our deer and our elk herd up there.

1755
01:44:14,200 --> 01:44:18,400
Speaker 1: At the moment um, you know, it's accountable to changes

1756
01:44:18,479 --> 01:44:24,200
Speaker 1: in habitat loss um. Drought conditions were incredibly severe last year,

1757
01:44:24,479 --> 01:44:27,519
Speaker 1: our caffe recruitments somewhere in like the low thirty percent

1758
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:31,640
Speaker 1: at the moment the expanding outdoor recreation is having devastating

1759
01:44:31,720 --> 01:44:34,240
Speaker 1: impacts on that piece as well, And so to layer

1760
01:44:34,320 --> 01:44:37,880
Speaker 1: one additional UM component that will add strain to the

1761
01:44:37,960 --> 01:44:40,479
Speaker 1: herd seems to me like we're getting pretty close to

1762
01:44:40,520 --> 01:44:44,680
Speaker 1: the to the tipping point. And UM, I I come

1763
01:44:44,720 --> 01:44:46,680
Speaker 1: from the vantage point that we need to take a

1764
01:44:46,720 --> 01:44:50,759
Speaker 1: holistic perspective of all of this. UM. Wildlife management doesn't

1765
01:44:50,800 --> 01:44:54,960
Speaker 1: exist in a vacuum, and Uh, you know, my experience

1766
01:44:54,960 --> 01:44:58,200
Speaker 1: has been that the proponents of the wolf reintroduction are

1767
01:44:58,240 --> 01:45:02,240
Speaker 1: interested in exclusively that peace. Um, I don't think they

1768
01:45:02,280 --> 01:45:05,799
Speaker 1: have given honest assessment to the impacts across the board.

1769
01:45:06,479 --> 01:45:09,600
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm relatively agnostic as to whether or

1770
01:45:09,680 --> 01:45:12,800
Speaker 1: not there's a population of wolves in the state. I

1771
01:45:12,840 --> 01:45:15,720
Speaker 1: would prefer that they come in naturally and that the

1772
01:45:15,760 --> 01:45:21,799
Speaker 1: state maintains management authority. Um. You know, call me a skeptic,

1773
01:45:21,920 --> 01:45:25,840
Speaker 1: but I am skeptical of of the reintroduction process. I mean,

1774
01:45:25,840 --> 01:45:29,240
Speaker 1: when you look through the timeline of the listing and

1775
01:45:29,360 --> 01:45:32,960
Speaker 1: d listing decisions that occurred with the introduced populations in

1776
01:45:33,000 --> 01:45:36,040
Speaker 1: Idaho and Wyoming, in some cases they were taken off

1777
01:45:36,040 --> 01:45:39,200
Speaker 1: and put back on the list, um, you know, upwards

1778
01:45:39,200 --> 01:45:43,480
Speaker 1: of six different times. And we have far far exceeded

1779
01:45:43,760 --> 01:45:46,519
Speaker 1: the recovery objectives in all of those cases. So it's

1780
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, to think that the plan that we come

1781
01:45:49,160 --> 01:45:51,559
Speaker 1: up with as a state is going to have some

1782
01:45:51,640 --> 01:45:56,320
Speaker 1: long lasting effect and won't be uh, you know, affected

1783
01:45:56,360 --> 01:45:59,400
Speaker 1: by the long history of litigation efforts that we've seen.

1784
01:45:59,479 --> 01:46:02,720
Speaker 1: I think is is a foolish perspective and so yeah,

1785
01:46:02,960 --> 01:46:06,200
Speaker 1: I'm skeptical of the reintroduction effort on that account. You know.

1786
01:46:06,280 --> 01:46:09,880
Speaker 1: By way of example, um, I think there was like

1787
01:46:10,280 --> 01:46:14,680
Speaker 1: thirty one wolves that were introduced in total um in Idaho.

1788
01:46:14,960 --> 01:46:19,679
Speaker 1: That was like the state didn't get uh the ability

1789
01:46:19,760 --> 01:46:23,280
Speaker 1: to hunt them until two thousand and nine. Their their

1790
01:46:23,360 --> 01:46:27,240
Speaker 1: recovery objective, if I remember correctly, was tin wolves or

1791
01:46:27,640 --> 01:46:30,360
Speaker 1: tin populate or tin packs are tin packs or a

1792
01:46:30,439 --> 01:46:34,040
Speaker 1: hundred plus wolves, And by two thousand and nine, when

1793
01:46:34,040 --> 01:46:37,520
Speaker 1: the state finally got the management prescription and the ability

1794
01:46:37,600 --> 01:46:40,720
Speaker 1: to harvest them via hunter, there was something like eight

1795
01:46:40,760 --> 01:46:45,599
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty wolves and so um. Yeah, to think

1796
01:46:45,680 --> 01:46:48,840
Speaker 1: that once our recovery objective in the state is achieved

1797
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:52,400
Speaker 1: in the state, at that point will is assume full

1798
01:46:52,479 --> 01:46:55,960
Speaker 1: management authority and we will be able to keep the

1799
01:46:56,040 --> 01:46:59,880
Speaker 1: population in check. From an eco ecosystem perspective, I just

1800
01:47:00,720 --> 01:47:03,120
Speaker 1: I don't have much faith in that outcome. No, dude,

1801
01:47:03,160 --> 01:47:05,559
Speaker 1: they'll they'll dick you. They'll they'll dick you around so

1802
01:47:05,600 --> 01:47:07,880
Speaker 1: bad you'll never see the end of it. It's like

1803
01:47:08,439 --> 01:47:11,840
Speaker 1: they it's kind of the playbook. And you know, I

1804
01:47:11,840 --> 01:47:13,800
Speaker 1: would play dirty too if I was trying to get

1805
01:47:13,840 --> 01:47:17,760
Speaker 1: what I wanted around wildlife. But they'll it's a playbook

1806
01:47:17,760 --> 01:47:19,640
Speaker 1: that they're like, oh no, no no, no, no, it's just

1807
01:47:19,680 --> 01:47:21,640
Speaker 1: gonna go like this. Then we'll hand it over to

1808
01:47:21,640 --> 01:47:24,360
Speaker 1: the state and it'll be like this number and there

1809
01:47:24,360 --> 01:47:28,479
Speaker 1: won't be these kind of restrictions, and then you get it,

1810
01:47:28,479 --> 01:47:31,479
Speaker 1: it goes way longer, and then they will legally block

1811
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:34,880
Speaker 1: you in the courts from ever getting what the concessions

1812
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:38,760
Speaker 1: that were supposed to be made in terms of the reintroduction. Yeah,

1813
01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:43,240
Speaker 1: and you're talking about an initiative that what was it,

1814
01:47:43,360 --> 01:47:46,559
Speaker 1: gas bar, Like fifty four out of sixty four counties

1815
01:47:46,680 --> 01:47:52,799
Speaker 1: voted against. Uh, yeah, so it passed in only twelve

1816
01:47:52,840 --> 01:47:56,679
Speaker 1: of the sixty four counties statewide. And you know, remember

1817
01:47:56,720 --> 01:47:59,840
Speaker 1: that the the initiatives said that introduction could only occur

1818
01:48:00,160 --> 01:48:03,200
Speaker 1: west of the Continental Divide, so you know, effectively the

1819
01:48:03,240 --> 01:48:07,040
Speaker 1: western half of the state and only four of the

1820
01:48:07,040 --> 01:48:11,080
Speaker 1: counties west of the Continental Divide supported it. Um. But

1821
01:48:11,160 --> 01:48:13,880
Speaker 1: you know, look, Boulder County supported it with a margin

1822
01:48:13,960 --> 01:48:16,600
Speaker 1: of sixty to thirty two, and Boulder Counties kind of

1823
01:48:16,600 --> 01:48:20,280
Speaker 1: our our our liberal hot spot in the state, whereas

1824
01:48:20,320 --> 01:48:24,080
Speaker 1: Rio Blanco County, UM, a location that's very likely to

1825
01:48:24,200 --> 01:48:29,200
Speaker 1: be picked as a reintroduction location, denied it. To twelve,

1826
01:48:29,600 --> 01:48:32,200
Speaker 1: the average no voting counties in the area that would

1827
01:48:32,200 --> 01:48:35,639
Speaker 1: be affected was sixty. This is a trend that we've

1828
01:48:35,640 --> 01:48:38,920
Speaker 1: seen in all of the ballot majors, you know, dating

1829
01:48:38,960 --> 01:48:43,240
Speaker 1: back to to the the constitutional ban on trapping as

1830
01:48:43,240 --> 01:48:46,200
Speaker 1: well as the uh, the bear hunting restrictions that we

1831
01:48:46,200 --> 01:48:49,559
Speaker 1: saw in the state. And so yeah, yeah, it's very

1832
01:48:49,640 --> 01:48:55,080
Speaker 1: much an urban rural divide. Huh. All right, So that

1833
01:48:55,080 --> 01:48:58,080
Speaker 1: that was time for the crystal ball question. Do you

1834
01:48:58,160 --> 01:49:01,960
Speaker 1: think that, I don't know why you wouldn't think this,

1835
01:49:02,640 --> 01:49:05,280
Speaker 1: but do you think that whatever, three years whatever, they

1836
01:49:05,320 --> 01:49:13,080
Speaker 1: will be opening up crates and cutting loose new wolves

1837
01:49:13,520 --> 01:49:17,240
Speaker 1: or do you think that somehow the existing population that's

1838
01:49:17,280 --> 01:49:22,080
Speaker 1: got there on its own, would you know, it would

1839
01:49:22,600 --> 01:49:27,400
Speaker 1: develop expand become healthy and self sustaining and they would

1840
01:49:27,479 --> 01:49:30,040
Speaker 1: somehow magically be like, oh, never mind, We're just gonna

1841
01:49:30,040 --> 01:49:31,960
Speaker 1: stick with what we got. Or do you think that

1842
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:35,639
Speaker 1: this is like happening, man, this is going to go down.

1843
01:49:36,439 --> 01:49:38,160
Speaker 1: I think the latter part of what you said is

1844
01:49:38,160 --> 01:49:42,040
Speaker 1: going to be true. Under either circumstance. The population that's

1845
01:49:42,080 --> 01:49:45,360
Speaker 1: here is going to continue to breed. I do think

1846
01:49:45,400 --> 01:49:48,840
Speaker 1: that the Parks and Wildlife Commission will develop a plan

1847
01:49:49,720 --> 01:49:53,559
Speaker 1: for reintroduction of wolves. They are pursuing what's called this

1848
01:49:53,600 --> 01:49:57,639
Speaker 1: preliminary ten j uh. It's never been done. Colorado will

1849
01:49:57,680 --> 01:50:00,760
Speaker 1: be the first state that has actively, from a state

1850
01:50:00,760 --> 01:50:04,800
Speaker 1: initiated perspective pursuit of reintroduction of of a wolf population

1851
01:50:05,760 --> 01:50:08,640
Speaker 1: um on the assumption that the wolf goes back on

1852
01:50:08,680 --> 01:50:10,840
Speaker 1: the list in the next three years. And I think

1853
01:50:10,880 --> 01:50:14,560
Speaker 1: that's a high likelihood. I think there are serious questions

1854
01:50:14,600 --> 01:50:17,920
Speaker 1: that remain as to whether or not US Fish and

1855
01:50:17,920 --> 01:50:22,800
Speaker 1: Wildlife Service will ultimately approve a reintroduction plan in light

1856
01:50:22,880 --> 01:50:27,439
Speaker 1: of the existing wolf population in the state. Man, the

1857
01:50:27,479 --> 01:50:32,479
Speaker 1: wolves are almost screwing themselves. The wolves that we're going

1858
01:50:32,520 --> 01:50:35,880
Speaker 1: to get dropped off probably the wolves that we're going

1859
01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:39,000
Speaker 1: to get dropped off into the happy hunting grounds. They're like, man,

1860
01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:42,400
Speaker 1: we're probably piste about the wolves that walked down there.

1861
01:50:43,080 --> 01:50:46,120
Speaker 1: But the wolves walked down they're gonna be tough. They're

1862
01:50:46,160 --> 01:50:52,000
Speaker 1: forged by fire man m hm. Disney. But you know,

1863
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:54,519
Speaker 1: the gas bar brought up a good point to me,

1864
01:50:55,000 --> 01:50:59,160
Speaker 1: which is like it's all over, but the crime right

1865
01:50:59,200 --> 01:51:04,479
Speaker 1: there commings. So hunters should they just need to accept it, right,

1866
01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:07,240
Speaker 1: Like you've got to like accept it and kind of

1867
01:51:07,280 --> 01:51:10,960
Speaker 1: be part of the process. At this man, the worst

1868
01:51:10,960 --> 01:51:14,680
Speaker 1: thing you can do is the smoke pack of day philosophy.

1869
01:51:15,080 --> 01:51:22,600
Speaker 1: You know, tell you what, be a part of the

1870
01:51:22,640 --> 01:51:27,320
Speaker 1: conversation in a meaningful way. Yeah, there will be a

1871
01:51:27,360 --> 01:51:29,400
Speaker 1: lot of people that will get like, you know, there's

1872
01:51:29,400 --> 01:51:32,679
Speaker 1: some people that that it's to say, it's the crowd

1873
01:51:32,720 --> 01:51:35,439
Speaker 1: that quit waterfowl hunting when they had to stop using lead.

1874
01:51:36,560 --> 01:51:43,240
Speaker 1: There will be people. There will be people that that, uh,

1875
01:51:43,479 --> 01:51:46,680
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of gur and we'll like up

1876
01:51:46,680 --> 01:51:49,920
Speaker 1: it over. I'll be like I quit hunting by God

1877
01:51:50,000 --> 01:51:52,439
Speaker 1: when the wolves. And then there'll be people who are

1878
01:51:52,439 --> 01:51:54,680
Speaker 1: just who get after it and figure stuff out and

1879
01:51:54,680 --> 01:51:58,960
Speaker 1: they'll keep doing well. But I'm telling you, man, it'll

1880
01:51:59,000 --> 01:52:03,120
Speaker 1: be yeah, a shock to the system. Right. They eat

1881
01:52:03,800 --> 01:52:07,240
Speaker 1: seven pounds of meat a day, so just get a

1882
01:52:07,280 --> 01:52:11,320
Speaker 1: calculator out right, it's just a reality what hey, what

1883
01:52:11,600 --> 01:52:15,400
Speaker 1: is the uh? Is there an initial number that they've

1884
01:52:15,400 --> 01:52:18,679
Speaker 1: got a goal for? Well? No, and you know this

1885
01:52:18,760 --> 01:52:20,760
Speaker 1: is really where the meat and the potatoes if this

1886
01:52:20,800 --> 01:52:24,360
Speaker 1: plan comes together, and why sportsmen need to continuously engage

1887
01:52:24,400 --> 01:52:28,200
Speaker 1: themselves in this process, right, because there are questions about

1888
01:52:29,080 --> 01:52:33,960
Speaker 1: how many wolves will constitute a recovery objective where they

1889
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:38,679
Speaker 1: will be reintroduced um. You know, all of these questions

1890
01:52:38,680 --> 01:52:41,760
Speaker 1: are going to be crafted um by the Commission over

1891
01:52:41,800 --> 01:52:44,599
Speaker 1: the course of the next three years. And my hope

1892
01:52:44,640 --> 01:52:47,320
Speaker 1: is that we as a sportsman community can engage in

1893
01:52:47,360 --> 01:52:49,719
Speaker 1: this rather than just throwing our suckers in the dirt

1894
01:52:49,800 --> 01:52:51,880
Speaker 1: and being upset about the fact that we lost at

1895
01:52:51,920 --> 01:52:55,400
Speaker 1: the ballot, and engage in the process to develop what

1896
01:52:55,520 --> 01:52:58,639
Speaker 1: could be the most thoughtful and well thought out planned.

1897
01:52:58,720 --> 01:53:02,400
Speaker 1: But we broke this discussion last year and the legislation

1898
01:53:02,479 --> 01:53:05,680
Speaker 1: we were trying to craft, and I've heard numbers as

1899
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:08,760
Speaker 1: high as two hundred and fifty UM. I think from

1900
01:53:08,760 --> 01:53:12,160
Speaker 1: our perspective, we're looking at a closer a number closer

1901
01:53:12,200 --> 01:53:16,280
Speaker 1: to around fifty UM. The precedents in other states, of course,

1902
01:53:16,439 --> 01:53:21,679
Speaker 1: was ten packs or a hundred wolves. UM. Now when

1903
01:53:21,680 --> 01:53:25,920
Speaker 1: you over the lay the landscapes of Idaho in Montana

1904
01:53:26,320 --> 01:53:29,200
Speaker 1: versus you know, the western half of Colorado, I think

1905
01:53:29,200 --> 01:53:33,519
Speaker 1: it lends itself to a lower number. Something I got

1906
01:53:33,520 --> 01:53:36,400
Speaker 1: way more habitat here man, Yeah, exactly. And so but

1907
01:53:36,439 --> 01:53:38,479
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter because they'll say, here's the thing. It

1908
01:53:38,479 --> 01:53:41,080
Speaker 1: doesn't matter because they'll you'll agree on let's say you

1909
01:53:41,080 --> 01:53:44,960
Speaker 1: agree on a hundred hunter hunters, good number, everybody can

1910
01:53:45,000 --> 01:53:48,719
Speaker 1: live with a hundred. And then you'll get to hundred

1911
01:53:49,080 --> 01:53:52,360
Speaker 1: fifty two and someone will be like, Okay, we're gonna

1912
01:53:52,400 --> 01:53:55,400
Speaker 1: deal list and go to state management. And then you'll

1913
01:53:55,479 --> 01:53:59,519
Speaker 1: fight lawsuits for twenty years and then it just doesn't matter.

1914
01:54:00,360 --> 01:54:03,280
Speaker 1: That's the word. Yeah, it does not matter. It will

1915
01:54:03,320 --> 01:54:07,080
Speaker 1: never You'll never get it undone. It'll just be. It'll

1916
01:54:07,080 --> 01:54:09,880
Speaker 1: become like a thing that gets litigated to the point

1917
01:54:09,960 --> 01:54:13,640
Speaker 1: where it'll just it'll find its number. I mean, it

1918
01:54:13,640 --> 01:54:16,599
Speaker 1: took forever here, and it's so tenuous here. The history

1919
01:54:16,640 --> 01:54:19,960
Speaker 1: has indicated that. And unfortunately, whatever plan we come up

1920
01:54:19,960 --> 01:54:25,000
Speaker 1: with won't supersede. Uh. You know, federal statutes under es

1921
01:54:25,120 --> 01:54:28,519
Speaker 1: a right and so our our plan will continuously play

1922
01:54:28,600 --> 01:54:32,480
Speaker 1: second fiddle to the ongoing national es a discussion around

1923
01:54:32,560 --> 01:54:37,240
Speaker 1: listing and delisting. And it's an unfortunate reality because, as

1924
01:54:37,280 --> 01:54:40,360
Speaker 1: you mentioned, Steve, they're on their way here. We're gonna

1925
01:54:40,440 --> 01:54:44,800
Speaker 1: have a population of wolves in Colorado in the next

1926
01:54:44,840 --> 01:54:48,240
Speaker 1: couple of years before any of this is implemented. You

1927
01:54:48,240 --> 01:54:51,440
Speaker 1: know what cracks me about the like the winey ass,

1928
01:54:52,240 --> 01:54:56,480
Speaker 1: the wolf protection crowd is that you know, like you

1929
01:54:56,520 --> 01:55:00,920
Speaker 1: look at Wisconsin right where they hit recovery objective, you

1930
01:55:00,960 --> 01:55:04,280
Speaker 1: know eons ago they get way over recovery objective. But

1931
01:55:04,320 --> 01:55:05,920
Speaker 1: then they have a hunt and they set a quota

1932
01:55:06,000 --> 01:55:08,480
Speaker 1: and they go over to quota and everybody's all up

1933
01:55:08,520 --> 01:55:11,080
Speaker 1: stem like home, when did you people start caring about quotas?

1934
01:55:12,320 --> 01:55:14,720
Speaker 1: You never cared about the recovery objective number? That like

1935
01:55:14,880 --> 01:55:18,200
Speaker 1: became like a completely like you never cared about surpassing that.

1936
01:55:18,240 --> 01:55:19,440
Speaker 1: But all of a sudden they go over a hunt

1937
01:55:19,520 --> 01:55:21,880
Speaker 1: quote and everybody acts like they're married to these numbers.

1938
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:24,720
Speaker 1: So you don't care about the numbers? Yeah, like what

1939
01:55:24,880 --> 01:55:29,120
Speaker 1: just unfolded? It was it Wisconsin where they but I'm like,

1940
01:55:29,320 --> 01:55:32,280
Speaker 1: they went way over. But you guys have we've been

1941
01:55:32,360 --> 01:55:37,280
Speaker 1: over the quota that you liked for twenty years, right,

1942
01:55:37,760 --> 01:55:40,400
Speaker 1: and like, so don't act like all of a sudden,

1943
01:55:40,400 --> 01:55:42,320
Speaker 1: like you really care about all the numbers being right

1944
01:55:42,320 --> 01:55:44,000
Speaker 1: becase you don't give a about they only care about

1945
01:55:44,000 --> 01:55:47,520
Speaker 1: certain numbers. It's it's indefensible too, because you also have

1946
01:55:47,600 --> 01:55:50,720
Speaker 1: to be like, you know, you guys really screwed up

1947
01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:55,840
Speaker 1: because all the other times wildlife science, wildlife management, Uh,

1948
01:55:56,040 --> 01:56:01,200
Speaker 1: deals in perfect scenarios, there are normal mistakes when it's

1949
01:56:01,240 --> 01:56:04,440
Speaker 1: done right, you know, when you're dealing with wild animals

1950
01:56:04,720 --> 01:56:09,800
Speaker 1: and social science at the same time. Kills me. Which

1951
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:13,400
Speaker 1: is why all these discussions need to take place within

1952
01:56:14,200 --> 01:56:17,520
Speaker 1: the state game and phish agencies. Right, We've seen an

1953
01:56:17,520 --> 01:56:20,480
Speaker 1: onslaught of legislation all throughout the Rocky Mountain West this

1954
01:56:20,560 --> 01:56:23,160
Speaker 1: year trying to address specific pieces not just you know,

1955
01:56:23,320 --> 01:56:26,040
Speaker 1: well outside of the scope of wolf free introduction, but

1956
01:56:26,160 --> 01:56:29,839
Speaker 1: trying to to manage hunting and angling as a sport

1957
01:56:30,000 --> 01:56:34,560
Speaker 1: wildlife populations in general through through legislation. And I just

1958
01:56:34,640 --> 01:56:38,240
Speaker 1: do not find it to be a proper venue for

1959
01:56:38,320 --> 01:56:41,760
Speaker 1: wildlife management discussions that you know, those discussions need to

1960
01:56:41,760 --> 01:56:45,919
Speaker 1: be led by wildlife professionals, founded on the best available

1961
01:56:45,920 --> 01:56:49,000
Speaker 1: science at the time. Sure, a social element needs to

1962
01:56:49,000 --> 01:56:51,320
Speaker 1: be incorporated in it. And I don't mean to undermine

1963
01:56:51,440 --> 01:56:56,280
Speaker 1: or or discredit the importance of that, but uh, it's

1964
01:56:56,280 --> 01:56:59,760
Speaker 1: been my experience that the legislature has not always yielded

1965
01:56:59,760 --> 01:57:03,560
Speaker 1: the the best wildlife management strategies or policies. Oh, it's

1966
01:57:03,600 --> 01:57:06,680
Speaker 1: the same thing. The State of Montana is just like

1967
01:57:07,240 --> 01:57:09,400
Speaker 1: makes you want to throw up right now. It's like

1968
01:57:09,560 --> 01:57:18,480
Speaker 1: very clear that wildlife is a vehicle for vendetta, Like

1969
01:57:18,520 --> 01:57:20,040
Speaker 1: you're telling me you can look me in the eye

1970
01:57:20,080 --> 01:57:23,720
Speaker 1: and say that this legislation is for animals somehow or

1971
01:57:23,800 --> 01:57:28,440
Speaker 1: is this for who you're talking to, Like it's it's

1972
01:57:28,440 --> 01:57:31,800
Speaker 1: a people thing, not an animal thing. And you know, look,

1973
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:35,120
Speaker 1: there there are some scenarios where it's been beneficial to write,

1974
01:57:35,160 --> 01:57:39,880
Speaker 1: particularly on funding. We've seen it be advantageous in Pennsylvania

1975
01:57:39,920 --> 01:57:42,000
Speaker 1: and some of the Eastern states on Sunday hunting and

1976
01:57:42,040 --> 01:57:44,880
Speaker 1: blue laws. And so I don't mean to demonize it

1977
01:57:44,920 --> 01:57:48,320
Speaker 1: across the board, um, because there have been occasions where

1978
01:57:48,320 --> 01:57:53,360
Speaker 1: it's been beneficially, but those are like those are those

1979
01:57:53,400 --> 01:57:58,720
Speaker 1: are social that's like social legislation, it's not like wildlife management.

1980
01:58:00,520 --> 01:58:04,640
Speaker 1: That's good point. Uh, this is a tangent to this.

1981
01:58:04,760 --> 01:58:07,520
Speaker 1: But I was looking at, you know, lawsuits to undo

1982
01:58:07,600 --> 01:58:10,320
Speaker 1: the Bernhardt's deal liisting. I'm gonna wind up missing that

1983
01:58:10,360 --> 01:58:12,600
Speaker 1: guy enough and and and more than a handful of ways,

1984
01:58:12,920 --> 01:58:18,560
Speaker 1: but lawsuits looking to undo the the delisting. Now that

1985
01:58:18,600 --> 01:58:22,080
Speaker 1: we've hit recovery objectives and how you always see humane

1986
01:58:22,120 --> 01:58:24,760
Speaker 1: society pop up. It's funny that because they do the

1987
01:58:24,840 --> 01:58:28,320
Speaker 1: nice stuff for dogs. People never realize that it's one

1988
01:58:28,320 --> 01:58:31,960
Speaker 1: of the most powerful anti hunting, anti anti trapping groups

1989
01:58:31,960 --> 01:58:33,800
Speaker 1: out there, like far and away there. Day I was

1990
01:58:33,800 --> 01:58:36,640
Speaker 1: at Murdocks, like Murdock's Ranch supply, you know what, you're

1991
01:58:36,680 --> 01:58:37,760
Speaker 1: like doing the thing and they ask you if you

1992
01:58:37,800 --> 01:58:41,520
Speaker 1: want to donate something. At Murdocks, they ask if you

1993
01:58:41,560 --> 01:58:44,920
Speaker 1: want to donate the Humane Society. Man we're driving, which

1994
01:58:44,920 --> 01:58:46,520
Speaker 1: is like a weird like you're talking to like a

1995
01:58:46,600 --> 01:58:48,840
Speaker 1: ranch community, whether they want to donate to the leading

1996
01:58:48,880 --> 01:58:52,760
Speaker 1: animal rights like the leading animal rights organization of the country.

1997
01:58:53,160 --> 01:58:55,120
Speaker 1: I thought, like, I think, like someone that kind of

1998
01:58:55,240 --> 01:58:57,600
Speaker 1: slipped by someone, we're not about bringing it up with

1999
01:58:57,640 --> 01:59:00,080
Speaker 1: the cashier. We're driving south to town and there's of

2000
01:59:00,120 --> 01:59:05,320
Speaker 1: those anti trapping billboards out that way, and my kids

2001
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:07,920
Speaker 1: are like, what what is that. I'm like, you know,

2002
01:59:08,320 --> 01:59:15,000
Speaker 1: some people don't like it. Yeah, they masquerade as dog helpers. Hey, Steve,

2003
01:59:15,160 --> 01:59:21,240
Speaker 1: I did bring it up at Murdochs. And you know,

2004
01:59:21,760 --> 01:59:24,800
Speaker 1: it's interesting because she said, yeah, it's like a very

2005
01:59:24,920 --> 01:59:29,320
Speaker 1: hot topic because everybody in there is like, what this

2006
01:59:29,400 --> 01:59:33,760
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense, and um, it's like the local

2007
01:59:34,920 --> 01:59:37,520
Speaker 1: Humane Society, which is like a different thing than the

2008
01:59:37,720 --> 01:59:41,960
Speaker 1: H S U S. Is that right? Yeah, like they're

2009
01:59:41,960 --> 01:59:48,040
Speaker 1: not connected. I think I think that there is a connection. Man.

2010
01:59:50,160 --> 01:59:52,280
Speaker 1: Well no, because I don't think that the owners of

2011
01:59:52,360 --> 01:59:55,480
Speaker 1: Murdocks and all the employees there would allow that. You

2012
01:59:55,560 --> 02:00:01,200
Speaker 1: need to get your little producer cap on it, colonel

2013
02:00:01,360 --> 02:00:07,120
Speaker 1: sniff it out. Alright, gas Bar, Um, you were born

2014
02:00:07,160 --> 02:00:10,440
Speaker 1: in the US? I was Yeah, were you? I'm asking?

2015
02:00:10,480 --> 02:00:14,040
Speaker 1: Were you? Yeah? Yeah, gas Bar, Para Cone. I just

2016
02:00:14,080 --> 02:00:18,400
Speaker 1: feel like, uh, you know, I don't know Silian namesake?

2017
02:00:18,640 --> 02:00:22,760
Speaker 1: Is it Sicilian? Yeah? That's my people. I know, I

2018
02:00:22,840 --> 02:00:27,360
Speaker 1: know we're good people. Um, we're your are you were

2019
02:00:27,360 --> 02:00:30,000
Speaker 1: your were your folks from Sicily? Are you guys been

2020
02:00:30,040 --> 02:00:32,400
Speaker 1: in the US for a long time? Yeah, third generation

2021
02:00:33,120 --> 02:00:35,800
Speaker 1: American and it's a little throwback name. Man, gas Bar,

2022
02:00:35,880 --> 02:00:40,600
Speaker 1: you're the only gas Bar I know. Well, easy to remember,

2023
02:00:41,400 --> 02:00:44,200
Speaker 1: I said of my grandfather. I am as well. Okay,

2024
02:00:44,760 --> 02:00:46,800
Speaker 1: thanks for coming out and explain this wolf deal man.

2025
02:00:46,840 --> 02:00:48,280
Speaker 1: You'll have to come back a whole bunch and keep

2026
02:00:48,320 --> 02:00:51,040
Speaker 1: us up to speed on it. Be happy to thanks

2027
02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:55,600
Speaker 1: for the time, guys. I'm not totally happy. I mean,

2028
02:00:55,640 --> 02:00:58,480
Speaker 1: you did a great job. I just like, I just man,

2029
02:00:58,840 --> 02:01:03,480
Speaker 1: stuff kind of you got some lingering questions. No, no questions,

2030
02:01:03,600 --> 02:01:06,240
Speaker 1: I just just something about it. I don't like it.

2031
02:01:07,080 --> 02:01:08,400
Speaker 1: I don't like I wish they would have done it.

2032
02:01:08,400 --> 02:01:11,400
Speaker 1: I wish they would have done it like this around

2033
02:01:11,440 --> 02:01:13,800
Speaker 1: as everybody what their opinion about it is. You know

2034
02:01:13,840 --> 02:01:17,800
Speaker 1: what's interesting that, uh, you guys can pull off culling

2035
02:01:17,840 --> 02:01:21,000
Speaker 1: all those geese out of the parks in Denver and

2036
02:01:21,080 --> 02:01:26,760
Speaker 1: feeding them to the food shelters. Uh huh without putting

2037
02:01:26,760 --> 02:01:31,120
Speaker 1: that up for a public vote. Yeah, there's a bit

2038
02:01:31,160 --> 02:01:34,440
Speaker 1: of duplicity in some of the rags on the books.

2039
02:01:34,560 --> 02:01:38,800
Speaker 1: I would be denying if I said otherwise. Yeah, the voting,

2040
02:01:38,880 --> 02:01:41,520
Speaker 1: the voting on this stuff. I know this will never happen.

2041
02:01:41,520 --> 02:01:44,560
Speaker 1: I mean, just to be ridiculous, to demonstrate ridiculousness. Will

2042
02:01:44,600 --> 02:01:46,520
Speaker 1: it be like some day they'll be like, we're gonna

2043
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:47,960
Speaker 1: have a vote, and we're gonna ask you everyone in

2044
02:01:48,000 --> 02:01:51,200
Speaker 1: the state. Should the pheasant limit be two or three?

2045
02:01:52,000 --> 02:01:55,960
Speaker 1: That's the way it's going. I mean, well, and you know,

2046
02:01:56,800 --> 02:02:01,000
Speaker 1: we have allocation questions before the legislature here. Now there's

2047
02:02:01,000 --> 02:02:05,040
Speaker 1: a bill out there trying to limit the nonresident tags available.

2048
02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:09,400
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, again, we periodically as a wildlife

2049
02:02:09,400 --> 02:02:12,040
Speaker 1: Commission have gone back and taken a look at season

2050
02:02:12,080 --> 02:02:16,200
Speaker 1: structures and and license allocation distribution between residents and nonresidents,

2051
02:02:16,200 --> 02:02:19,520
Speaker 1: and you know, those take a couple of years there

2052
02:02:19,600 --> 02:02:22,600
Speaker 1: among the more contentious conversations that occur in the state.

2053
02:02:23,200 --> 02:02:26,360
Speaker 1: And you know, here we have kind of just a blanket,

2054
02:02:26,480 --> 02:02:30,680
Speaker 1: one size fits all approach um that would uh set

2055
02:02:30,680 --> 02:02:36,160
Speaker 1: in statute, uh that distribution requirement, and it's drawn uh

2056
02:02:36,520 --> 02:02:39,640
Speaker 1: confrontation on on every side of the discussion, right, which

2057
02:02:39,680 --> 02:02:43,320
Speaker 1: I think just underscores that the venue is not suitable

2058
02:02:43,360 --> 02:02:47,560
Speaker 1: for those type of conversations. That we got one for

2059
02:02:48,120 --> 02:02:51,760
Speaker 1: extending wolf season here in Montana, right, And it's like

2060
02:02:51,800 --> 02:02:55,760
Speaker 1: you talked to a public a vote. Well, no, this

2061
02:02:55,840 --> 02:03:02,360
Speaker 1: was some legislation, and it's just just funny, right because

2062
02:03:02,360 --> 02:03:06,640
Speaker 1: they're like, uh, these folks who introduced this legislation, they

2063
02:03:06,680 --> 02:03:12,040
Speaker 1: don't understand how bad hunters are at killing wolves, and

2064
02:03:12,440 --> 02:03:15,880
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, we can, we can make wolf hunting

2065
02:03:15,920 --> 02:03:20,600
Speaker 1: season year round. The people who kill wolves are trappers,

2066
02:03:20,960 --> 02:03:22,600
Speaker 1: but they only want to do it when furs good.

2067
02:03:23,520 --> 02:03:27,200
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, the the biological basis is not there,

2068
02:03:27,200 --> 02:03:31,640
Speaker 1: it's the social basis that is the point. Right. Well,

2069
02:03:31,680 --> 02:03:34,560
Speaker 1: and like when they opened up Idaho's wolf harvest for

2070
02:03:34,600 --> 02:03:36,360
Speaker 1: the first time. You know, I think they gave out

2071
02:03:36,360 --> 02:03:38,440
Speaker 1: something like your listeners may tell me I'm way off

2072
02:03:38,480 --> 02:03:41,720
Speaker 1: on this number, but you know it was several thousand tags, right,

2073
02:03:42,320 --> 02:03:44,600
Speaker 1: and they ended up killing like a hundred and thirty

2074
02:03:44,680 --> 02:03:46,920
Speaker 1: or a hundred and forty of them, which was like

2075
02:03:47,000 --> 02:03:51,480
Speaker 1: the best hunting season I think Idaho had right right,

2076
02:03:51,520 --> 02:03:54,560
Speaker 1: Like when she dropped off the table after that once

2077
02:03:54,600 --> 02:03:57,400
Speaker 1: the wolves were like, oh, getting shot at now, trying

2078
02:03:57,400 --> 02:03:59,880
Speaker 1: to move off the road. But with just under a

2079
02:04:00,040 --> 02:04:02,920
Speaker 1: thousand wolves on the landscape, you would expect that hunter

2080
02:04:03,000 --> 02:04:06,880
Speaker 1: harvest uh percentage to be a bit higher than that. Yeah,

2081
02:04:07,040 --> 02:04:10,040
Speaker 1: it's a testament to the difficulty of the hunter harvest

2082
02:04:10,040 --> 02:04:14,120
Speaker 1: approach and management. All right, man, thanks a lot, Thank you.

2083
02:04:14,560 --> 02:04:17,120
Speaker 1: I'm back looking at this picture of Cal. Now, my god,

2084
02:04:21,080 --> 02:04:26,440
Speaker 1: take it easy, buddy, I appreciate it. To wrap up, Cal,

2085
02:04:26,720 --> 02:04:32,040
Speaker 1: plug your deal. Oh so, I guess the day after

2086
02:04:33,280 --> 02:04:39,120
Speaker 1: this podcast will be the Louisiana episode of Cal in

2087
02:04:39,160 --> 02:04:41,880
Speaker 1: the Field. Cal's we can reviewed my my podcast, but

2088
02:04:42,400 --> 02:04:45,920
Speaker 1: something you can see visually on our meat eat or

2089
02:04:46,000 --> 02:04:52,320
Speaker 1: YouTube channel. So the first episode was Trapping Live Trapping

2090
02:04:52,320 --> 02:04:54,560
Speaker 1: grizzly bears with Idaho Fishing game. If you want to

2091
02:04:54,560 --> 02:04:59,120
Speaker 1: see some if you want to see some amazing grizzly

2092
02:04:59,640 --> 02:05:06,800
Speaker 1: bear footage that it's good. It is good, big grizzly

2093
02:05:07,080 --> 02:05:09,120
Speaker 1: in a trap and they work it up and process

2094
02:05:09,200 --> 02:05:14,560
Speaker 1: it and and eventually let it go. And yeah, it's

2095
02:05:14,560 --> 02:05:18,200
Speaker 1: like that. It's incredible good example, like the internal frustrations

2096
02:05:18,480 --> 02:05:21,160
Speaker 1: of being out on something like that. There's just like

2097
02:05:21,200 --> 02:05:25,480
Speaker 1: an overwhelming amount of cool stuff happening and an endless

2098
02:05:25,520 --> 02:05:28,080
Speaker 1: amount of things we could talk about, and it's like,

2099
02:05:28,160 --> 02:05:31,800
Speaker 1: but here's like the most concise version that we could

2100
02:05:32,000 --> 02:05:34,840
Speaker 1: get out to you. That was episode number one, which

2101
02:05:34,880 --> 02:05:38,080
Speaker 1: is tearing it up on YouTube. Are been sitting there?

2102
02:05:38,720 --> 02:05:44,000
Speaker 1: And episode two is Idaho Fisheries. We're talking about getting

2103
02:05:44,040 --> 02:05:47,040
Speaker 1: rewarded for catching rainbow trout, which is is a goofy

2104
02:05:47,080 --> 02:05:51,520
Speaker 1: deal but like bonny hunting rainbows. Hunting rainbows yea yeah,

2105
02:05:51,600 --> 02:05:54,240
Speaker 1: on the South Fork of the Snakes. Another fun one.

2106
02:05:54,400 --> 02:06:01,080
Speaker 1: And then Louisiana, Uh, we do all or we fish

2107
02:06:01,280 --> 02:06:04,160
Speaker 1: for this really cool species called Atlantic triple tale, which

2108
02:06:04,200 --> 02:06:07,240
Speaker 1: is a giant perch and super tasty fish, and you

2109
02:06:07,320 --> 02:06:11,080
Speaker 1: learn about the citizens science going on with a fish

2110
02:06:11,120 --> 02:06:12,800
Speaker 1: that people have been catching in the Gulf of Mexico

2111
02:06:12,920 --> 02:06:19,840
Speaker 1: forever but only got on regulations on gold fisheries regulations

2112
02:06:19,840 --> 02:06:22,440
Speaker 1: within like the last five years. That really surprised me

2113
02:06:22,480 --> 02:06:27,960
Speaker 1: because it's such a highly esteemed eating fish, yes, and

2114
02:06:28,240 --> 02:06:31,240
Speaker 1: such a prized sport fish, but people who like to

2115
02:06:31,280 --> 02:06:33,120
Speaker 1: catch it. It surprised me there's just one of those

2116
02:06:33,120 --> 02:06:36,680
Speaker 1: fish like oh yeah, they're always there, yeah, never never

2117
02:06:36,720 --> 02:06:40,040
Speaker 1: mind those things. I think it's because there's no like

2118
02:06:40,200 --> 02:06:46,400
Speaker 1: specific commercial task, like they only show up as bycatch

2119
02:06:46,560 --> 02:06:49,480
Speaker 1: right bycatch, some folks target them, but you really got

2120
02:06:49,480 --> 02:06:53,200
Speaker 1: to target them with with hooking line, so you know,

2121
02:06:53,240 --> 02:06:55,360
Speaker 1: it's like is it worth people's time to go after

2122
02:06:55,440 --> 02:06:58,000
Speaker 1: him in a in a market sense. And I think

2123
02:06:58,000 --> 02:07:00,400
Speaker 1: it's just kind of an interesting thing that even now,

2124
02:07:01,000 --> 02:07:05,040
Speaker 1: it's like there's so much life in the ocean that

2125
02:07:05,960 --> 02:07:08,960
Speaker 1: we're still getting around to like properly identifying, doing some

2126
02:07:09,040 --> 02:07:11,000
Speaker 1: real I mean, I talked to the one person who's

2127
02:07:11,040 --> 02:07:15,880
Speaker 1: really researched Triple Tale. It's got Jim Frank's He's awesome. Um,

2128
02:07:16,200 --> 02:07:18,200
Speaker 1: there's two fish in this world that I want to

2129
02:07:18,200 --> 02:07:20,560
Speaker 1: catch that I've never caught in Triple Tales. One of

2130
02:07:20,600 --> 02:07:23,040
Speaker 1: them the other one I came. I never it's like

2131
02:07:23,080 --> 02:07:25,040
Speaker 1: a weird mental problem. I can't remember, but I always

2132
02:07:25,080 --> 02:07:26,600
Speaker 1: have to ask Ghanni, Ny, what was the other fish?

2133
02:07:26,640 --> 02:07:31,440
Speaker 1: I want to catch real bad? Oh, there's three fish

2134
02:07:31,480 --> 02:07:33,360
Speaker 1: I want to catch real bad. You're gonna have to

2135
02:07:33,360 --> 02:07:35,880
Speaker 1: give me just a little bit of a hint. It

2136
02:07:35,880 --> 02:07:40,040
Speaker 1: looks like a little shark, but it's not kobia. Yeah

2137
02:07:40,280 --> 02:07:43,320
Speaker 1: they're good man, a triple tail and a kobia and

2138
02:07:43,320 --> 02:07:46,920
Speaker 1: then a she fish. Oh yeah, I'm must fish want

2139
02:07:46,920 --> 02:07:53,480
Speaker 1: to be too? Yeah yeah, and then we yeah, go

2140
02:07:53,600 --> 02:07:57,320
Speaker 1: all over Louisiana, hunt hogs, hunt gallon yule, which is

2141
02:07:57,560 --> 02:08:01,480
Speaker 1: uh a marsh hand and just look at the effects

2142
02:08:01,480 --> 02:08:07,960
Speaker 1: of salt water intrusion and and erosion in Louisiana. And yeah,

2143
02:08:07,960 --> 02:08:13,880
Speaker 1: super wild, fun trip to Louisiana. So when you're shooting

2144
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:15,800
Speaker 1: at the pig, it looks sounds like you're raiding a

2145
02:08:16,200 --> 02:08:20,560
Speaker 1: m you're raiding a target, Like you're raiding a target

2146
02:08:21,200 --> 02:08:24,080
Speaker 1: out of them, like pretty tight work with a shotgun

2147
02:08:24,320 --> 02:08:30,280
Speaker 1: and thick brush. Oh yeah, you know. The idea is

2148
02:08:30,360 --> 02:08:37,160
Speaker 1: to go in without any judgment and experience things the

2149
02:08:37,200 --> 02:08:41,840
Speaker 1: way people experience them in their places. And yeah, I

2150
02:08:41,920 --> 02:08:44,800
Speaker 1: felt a little down. It's a little odd being like

2151
02:08:45,280 --> 02:08:50,040
Speaker 1: so loaded shotgun bow, the boat boats under underpower, which

2152
02:08:50,080 --> 02:08:54,720
Speaker 1: is storm in there and you're just gonna plow me

2153
02:08:54,800 --> 02:08:58,560
Speaker 1: into a bunch of bushes. And that's how we're hunting hogs.

2154
02:08:58,600 --> 02:09:03,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, it looks like it's like that. It's like

2155
02:09:03,040 --> 02:09:07,200
Speaker 1: apocalypse now when the tiger comes. Yeah, just like firing

2156
02:09:07,240 --> 02:09:08,920
Speaker 1: into some grass. I mean you can see what you

2157
02:09:08,920 --> 02:09:09,960
Speaker 1: were doing. I'm not trying to make it like it

2158
02:09:10,000 --> 02:09:12,560
Speaker 1: was unsafe, but it's just it's it's a it's a

2159
02:09:12,560 --> 02:09:18,240
Speaker 1: good clip. Uh but yeah, you know, trying to take

2160
02:09:18,280 --> 02:09:22,240
Speaker 1: a look at some different conservation issues. See how folks

2161
02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, are exploring their spaces as they change over

2162
02:09:27,040 --> 02:09:30,320
Speaker 1: time and different parts of the world. And it's been

2163
02:09:30,840 --> 02:09:35,320
Speaker 1: super fun and and always very interesting. So good work

2164
02:09:35,360 --> 02:09:38,280
Speaker 1: everybody check it out now. How I feel like if

2165
02:09:38,280 --> 02:09:41,120
Speaker 1: you wanted to find it, like how people actually find stuff,

2166
02:09:41,200 --> 02:09:46,560
Speaker 1: you'd go cal in the field into your YouTube search engine.

2167
02:09:47,160 --> 02:09:51,120
Speaker 1: Would be real easy, call in the field, yep. Start with.

2168
02:09:51,600 --> 02:09:53,120
Speaker 1: A smart thing to do would be go to YouTube

2169
02:09:53,120 --> 02:09:56,080
Speaker 1: search meat meat eater and hit that subscribe button. Who

2170
02:09:56,120 --> 02:10:04,680
Speaker 1: fill out Phil, Thanks, thank you all right, buddy. Thanks

2171
02:10:04,720 --> 02:10:06,720
Speaker 1: tuning in. We got man, do you a lot of

2172
02:10:06,760 --> 02:10:09,240
Speaker 1: tid landing things we didn't talk about but we'll talk

2173
02:10:09,280 --> 02:10:12,480
Speaker 1: about him later, including yeah, I'm gonna do it like

2174
02:10:12,480 --> 02:10:16,120
Speaker 1: how they do it in real shows man, like when

2175
02:10:16,120 --> 02:10:18,960
Speaker 1: you do a teaser next week on I don't know

2176
02:10:18,960 --> 02:10:24,200
Speaker 1: about it'll be next week, but including um, same sex

2177
02:10:24,320 --> 02:10:31,880
Speaker 1: relationships and critters. I was waiting for Korean's like musical outra.

2178
02:10:33,160 --> 02:10:50,160
Speaker 1: Thanks everybody,