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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for a classic episode

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Speaker 1: of the show. This one originally aired March twelve, and

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Speaker 1: this one was the first in a two part series

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Speaker 1: we did about whether or not invertebrates like insects and

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Speaker 1: worms and creatures like that, can feel emotions. I thought

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Speaker 1: this was a cool question. Yeah, this one will really

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Speaker 1: change the way you think about all the creepy crawleys

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Speaker 1: in the world around you. All right, let's go ahead

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Speaker 1: and dive into part one, Welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: Your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb

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Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick. And today is going to be

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Speaker 1: the first and a couple of episodes that we wanted

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Speaker 1: to do on the subject of invertebrate emotions. And strangely enough,

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Speaker 1: I got interested in this subject the other day after

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Speaker 1: I was reading a poem, not a scientific paper. I

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Speaker 1: was reading a poem by the American modernist poet Marianne Moore,

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Speaker 1: who I like a lot. She she writes a lot

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Speaker 1: about like fish and you know, marine organisms. She lived

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Speaker 1: from eight seven to nineteen seventy two. And uh, if

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Speaker 1: it's okay with you, Robert, I wanted to start off

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Speaker 1: this episode just by reading this poem that I encountered

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Speaker 1: the other day. Okay. It is called the paper Nautilus

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Speaker 1: for authorities whose hopes are shaped by mercenaries, writers, entrapped

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Speaker 1: by tea time fame, and by commuters comforts. Not for these,

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Speaker 1: the paper Nautilus constructs her thin glass shell, giving her

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Speaker 1: perishable souvenir of hope, a dull white outside and smooth

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Speaker 1: edged inner surface. Glossy is the sea. The watchful maker

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Speaker 1: of it guards it day and night. She scarcely eats

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Speaker 1: until her eggs are hatched, buried eight fold in her

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Speaker 1: eight arms, for she is in a sense that devil fish.

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Speaker 1: Her glass ram's horn cradled freight is hid but not crushed,

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Speaker 1: as hercules bitten by a crab loyal to the hydra,

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Speaker 1: was hindered to succeed. The intensively watched eggs coming from

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Speaker 1: the shell free it when they are freed, leaving its

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Speaker 1: wasp nest flaws of white on white and close laid

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Speaker 1: ionic kite enfolds, like the lines in the mane of

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Speaker 1: a Parthenon horse, around which the arms had wound themselves,

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Speaker 1: as if they knew Love is the only fortress strong

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Speaker 1: enough to trust to. Oh that's nice. I like that

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Speaker 1: last part especially me too. I mean, I love the

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Speaker 1: way it moves from um this, uh this direct, almost

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Speaker 1: clinical description of the actual biology of the paper nautilus

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Speaker 1: and how it builds its shell and all that, and

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Speaker 1: goes from that to these classical illusions, and then ultimately

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Speaker 1: ends on this powerfully emotional note that kind of gives

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Speaker 1: me a shiver. Uh So. The late American poet Anthony Hate,

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Speaker 1: writing about More, said that one of the things he

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Speaker 1: liked most about our poems was that they had quote

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Speaker 1: a capacity for pure praise that has absolutely biblical awe

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Speaker 1: in it. And I think you kind of see that here.

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Speaker 1: I like that quality a lot too. It captures in

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Speaker 1: language some of the overwhelming, almost religious kind of power

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Speaker 1: I feel when looking at some animals, especially animals that

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Speaker 1: live in the ocean. But also the poem really just

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Speaker 1: has a very worthy subject. The paper nautilus, also known

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Speaker 1: as the argonaut, is a remarkable species and the shell

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Speaker 1: that has talked about in the poem the egg case

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Speaker 1: is a genuinely gorgeous wonder of evolution. Yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: quite a remarkable critter. So the argonaut. Uh, first of

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Speaker 1: let's just talk about the name. This is of course

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Speaker 1: a reference to Greek mythology, and we we recently talked

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Speaker 1: about this on our other show Invention, right, the myth

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Speaker 1: of Jason and the Argonauts. Right, Yeah, because they argonaut

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Speaker 1: just means sailors of the Argo, the Argo being the

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Speaker 1: ship built by Argus and the ship upon which Jason

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Speaker 1: sails in his quest to find the Golden fleece, which

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Speaker 1: itself was a sacred pelt of a winged ram. But

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Speaker 1: the argonaut we're talking about here is again the paper nautilus,

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Speaker 1: a member of the genus Argonata. So their octopods cephalopods,

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Speaker 1: and there as many as fifty three species that have

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Speaker 1: been described. They have this delicate calcite shell, hence the nickname.

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Speaker 1: And these shells were once thought to be pilfered like

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Speaker 1: the shells of a hermit crab. There was a question

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Speaker 1: of where did they acquire these things? Well, they must

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Speaker 1: have they must have stolen them. Uh, they must be

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Speaker 1: using them, right, and they wouldn't be the only octopus

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Speaker 1: that finds a shell or some kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: a coconut or something and picks it up and uses

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Speaker 1: it right uh and and this was also Another contributing

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Speaker 1: factor to this interpretation is the fact that the the

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Speaker 1: argonaut is not physically attached to the shell, like when

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Speaker 1: a specimen is examined. The creature can be removed from

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Speaker 1: the shell with ease, though it typically expires if that

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Speaker 1: is done to it. So, um, we've known about them.

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Speaker 1: For these creatures for thousands of years. They pop up

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Speaker 1: an art from three thousand b C, according to Mark

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Speaker 1: Carnal writing for The Guardian, But we did not know

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Speaker 1: how they made their egg shells until the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 1: So this is what happens. The female, and only the

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Speaker 1: female secretes the shells via specialized arms and the resulting

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Speaker 1: shell it's essentially a flotation device that resembles the shell

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Speaker 1: of extinct ammonites. They lay their eggs inside of these shells.

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Speaker 1: They retreat inside. Sometimes you'll you'll you'll find the detached

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Speaker 1: reproductive arm of a male a hectocotalis, and then she'll

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Speaker 1: use she'll use the shell though to control her buoyancy

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Speaker 1: in the water. There's so many interesting things going on here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, number one is just the implied history of

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Speaker 1: mating that at some point a male octopus came along

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Speaker 1: and made it by what tearing off one of its

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Speaker 1: own arms and giving it to her. Yeah, basically it

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Speaker 1: is like a detachable sexual organ, uh that then she keeps.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, the other thing about this shell that's so

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Speaker 1: fascinating is when we think of shells, we think of

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Speaker 1: just pure defense. We think of the hard shelter that

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Speaker 1: has grown out of the animal that the animal may

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Speaker 1: retreat into. Right, But they're in the common name the

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Speaker 1: paper nautilus. It implies that the shell is very delicate. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is not a defensive structure, at least not in

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Speaker 1: the same way that a true shell is. I mean

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Speaker 1: it is you can't argue that it is protective for

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Speaker 1: the young that reside within it, because it is a

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Speaker 1: very slim barrier between them and the open ocean, and

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Speaker 1: you know, keeps them close to the female. But mainly

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Speaker 1: it is the means by which this particular type of

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Speaker 1: octopod returned to the open sea as its skin had

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Speaker 1: largely evolved for sea floor life and left the open

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Speaker 1: waters to the squid. Okay, so the octopus is generally

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Speaker 1: going to be found uh, I don't know, along the

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Speaker 1: bottom or maybe hiding along along a reef or something

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Speaker 1: like that. But this one just takes out to the

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Speaker 1: open waters with a flotation device of its own, making

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Speaker 1: like one way. And this is you know, an elaborate

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Speaker 1: and probably a little poetiquet to think of it. But

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Speaker 1: you can think of the squid as the angel, and

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Speaker 1: the octopus is the fallen angels, has lost its wings.

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Speaker 1: But this particular octopod has I guess Miltonian aspirations and

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Speaker 1: or or is or is you know, lined up with

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Speaker 1: the thinking of data lists and icarus, and it is

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Speaker 1: building its own shell that will that in this case,

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Speaker 1: will will allow it to ascend up in the water

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Speaker 1: towards the surface. Now there's another thing I want to

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Speaker 1: throw in as a when you get into the sexual

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Speaker 1: dimorphism here, the females are up to six hundred times

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Speaker 1: the weight of the males. Uh. And again the males

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Speaker 1: do not engage in this kind of shell construction and growth.

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Speaker 1: But a great deal of mystery remains about how the

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Speaker 1: argonaut lives its life and and indeed how they even evolved.

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Speaker 1: Uh Neil Monks and Sea phil Palmer authors at the

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Speaker 1: two thousand two Mathonian book Ammonites. They have suggested that

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Speaker 1: these ancient octopuses might have depended on the discarded shells

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Speaker 1: of ammonites in prehistoric times and use their abilities to

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Speaker 1: mend the shells. So the idea might be that originally

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Speaker 1: they stole shells from a now extinct animal and then

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Speaker 1: use these uh uh these abilities to to patch them

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Speaker 1: up and make them fit, to customize them a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but still largely depend on the stolen shell. Interesting. I

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Speaker 1: mean there is a physical similarity. If you haven't seen

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Speaker 1: ammonite shells, that they tend to be spiral shaped. There

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Speaker 1: at some point in the past. I talked about our

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Speaker 1: recent trip to Lime Regis in uh in the UK,

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Speaker 1: where on the beach you can find fossils of ammonites

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Speaker 1: from you know, hundreds of millions of years ago, and

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Speaker 1: there are these colossal serial killer spirals etched into the rocks.

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Speaker 1: It's very very cool. But yeah, at some point the

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Speaker 1: ammonites disappeared, so they they went extinct in the Cretaceous

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Speaker 1: Paleogene extinction event. And so what do you do if

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Speaker 1: you depend upon that shell. So the idea here is

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Speaker 1: that the ancient paper nautilus is we then had to

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Speaker 1: use their mending skills to just create a shell of

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Speaker 1: their own in order to do the same sort of

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Speaker 1: things that they did previously. So what they what they

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Speaker 1: once used to repair, they had to create from scratch. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's that's at least one one theory that's out there.

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Speaker 1: It's also highly possible that we're just talking about covergent

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Speaker 1: evolution here and the paper nautilus is eggshell just happens

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Speaker 1: to resemble that of an ammonite. Sure, but it really

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Speaker 1: does look similar. But then again, you can see other

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Speaker 1: signs of similar types of possible convergent evolution. I mean

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Speaker 1: the nautilus, not the paper nautilus, but the animal just

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Speaker 1: normally called the nautilus is like the marine mollusk that

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Speaker 1: has a shell that sort of resembles an ammonite shell. Also, yeah,

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Speaker 1: absolutely still a fascinating creature and also definitely a creature

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Speaker 1: worthy of poetic consideration. Speaking and speaking of poetry, they

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Speaker 1: also show up in in other works of literature, including

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Speaker 1: twenty thousand Leagues under the Sea by Jules Verne uh

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a set action in it where they are, uh,

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Speaker 1: they're they're aboard the nautilus, the submarine, and they are

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Speaker 1: they've come up to the surface and they observe these creatures.

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Speaker 1: They observed the paper nautilus, the argonaut in action. So

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Speaker 1: here's a quote from the book. Quote. Now, it was

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Speaker 1: a school of argonauts then voyaging on the surface of

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Speaker 1: the ocean. We could count several hundred of them. They

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Speaker 1: belong to that species of argonaut, covered with protuberances and

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Speaker 1: exclusive to the seas near India. These graceful mollusks were

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Speaker 1: swimming backwards by means of their locomotive tubes, sucking water

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Speaker 1: into these tubes and then expelling it. Six of their

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Speaker 1: eight tentacles were long, thin and floated on the water,

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Speaker 1: while the other two were rounded into palms and spread

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Speaker 1: to the wind like light sails. I could see perfectly.

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Speaker 1: They're undulating spiral shaped shells, which Cuvier aptly compared to

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Speaker 1: an elegant cockle boat. It's an actual boat. Indeed, it

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Speaker 1: transports the animal that secretes it without the animal sticking

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Speaker 1: to it. The argonaut is free to leave its shell,

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Speaker 1: I told seal, But it never does not, unlike Captain

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Speaker 1: Nemo Conseil, replied sage Lee, which is why he should

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Speaker 1: have christened it his ship the Argonaut. Oh that's good,

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Speaker 1: it's a shell of his own design. Yeah. So now

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Speaker 1: they're also referring in this passage to this um this

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Speaker 1: myth or this outdated idea that they could use their

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Speaker 1: arms as sails and sail across the top of the water,

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Speaker 1: and that the shell is like actually a boat, and

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Speaker 1: it really in some sense as it is, because it

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Speaker 1: aids the creature in it's in its buoyancy. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's just a fun little literary usage of the argonaut,

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Speaker 1: and it also alludes to that fact that yes, it

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Speaker 1: can it can technically leave the shell, because it doesn't

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Speaker 1: actually grow that the shell. It kind of makes it.

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Speaker 1: But if if you were to remove the species from

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Speaker 1: its shell, it typically dies. This is such a cool animal.

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Speaker 1: And I like the idea that Jules Verne was like

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Speaker 1: halfway through writing twenty Leagues and he discovered this animal,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, I should have gone back and

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Speaker 1: named it the Argonaut from the beginning, but that'd take

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Speaker 1: too much revision. I'll just plow ahead and I'll have

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Speaker 1: a character acknowledge like it really would have been better

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Speaker 1: if it was called this other thing. But anyway, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to come back to the ending of the poem

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Speaker 1: by Marianne Moore. This powerful ending is what got me

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Speaker 1: really thinking about the subject for today's episode and the

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Speaker 1: next one. This idea of this eight armed cephalopod clutching

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Speaker 1: at its egg case, as if each of its arms

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Speaker 1: knew that love is the only fortress strong enough to

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Speaker 1: trust too. Does the paper nautilus feel love? Do the

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Speaker 1: coiled arms of the argonauts simply clutch or do they embrace?

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Speaker 1: Do they hug with all the emotional impact you know,

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Speaker 1: the baggage that comes with that. I think most everyone

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Speaker 1: would probably. I think the gut response that people are

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Speaker 1: generally gonna have is no, You're gonna think no, a

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Speaker 1: a paper nautilus is not going to be capable of

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Speaker 1: of love. Love is what humans do. And you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe specific animals that we live closely with that we

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Speaker 1: anthropomorphizes enough into, but not the not the octopi, not

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Speaker 1: the not the the world of invertebrates. Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's I mean, people would I think you'd encounter a

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Speaker 1: lot of divergent opinion about that. On one hand, you

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Speaker 1: can say, yeah, I mean, of course you're gonna have

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Speaker 1: a problem of if you believe that an octopus can love,

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Speaker 1: I mean, how could you prove that? Uh? And so,

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Speaker 1: And we'll address questions like that as we move on.

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Speaker 1: But more broadly, I guess, can you can you imagine

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Speaker 1: invertebrates in general feeling anything analogous to the kind of plain,

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Speaker 1: familiar emotions that we name in poems. You know, does

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Speaker 1: a does a crab feel feared? Does a bumblebee feel hate? Uh?

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Speaker 1: Does a snail feel discussed or jealousy or joy? Or

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Speaker 1: you know? Is it as you're sort of suggesting folly

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Speaker 1: to meaningfully apply these words outside of humans, and maybe

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Speaker 1: they're more closely related vertebrate relatives. Well. But then the

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Speaker 1: other side to look at it, and this is something

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Speaker 1: we'll continue to discuss as well, is that you bring

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Speaker 1: up poetry, and poetry is very much a part of

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Speaker 1: the and I love poetry, but it is part of

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Speaker 1: the cult of human emotion indefinitely places things like love

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Speaker 1: on a golden pedestal. And and so there's kind of

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Speaker 1: a push and pull here when we look to the

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Speaker 1: world of animals. We have to be willing to throw

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Speaker 1: our emotions off of that golden pedestal and and look

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Speaker 1: at what they really are from uh, you know, psychological

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Speaker 1: and even biological standpoint. And at the same time we

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Speaker 1: have to be able to look to the animal world

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Speaker 1: and be willing to attribute these, uh these knockdown emotions

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Speaker 1: to them as well. Well, yeah, I mean that that's

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Speaker 1: the other side of it. I mean, some people I

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Speaker 1: think would say you're being stingy if you say that

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Speaker 1: that an argonaut can't love. But then I think there

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Speaker 1: are also people who would say, like, you're really, you know,

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Speaker 1: degrading my feeling of my relationships and and my love

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Speaker 1: if you say that an octopus can do the same thing. Right,

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Speaker 1: So it gets it gets complicated, and there's plenty of

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Speaker 1: room to be piste off on both sides. So hopefully

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Speaker 1: we'll piss everyone off as we proceed here. Well, maybe

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Speaker 1: we should take a break and then when we come

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Speaker 1: back we can try to address the thorny, difficult question

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Speaker 1: of what our emotions. Alright, we're back, So to proceed here,

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Speaker 1: we're going to have to take a quick stab an

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Speaker 1: exceedingly huge and complicated question which is what our emotions.

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Speaker 1: Obviously this is something we can't answer adequately in a

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Speaker 1: subsection of one episode, but we'll do our best to

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Speaker 1: try to hint at the broad picture of what this

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Speaker 1: question entails. Yeah, it can be so tricky to even

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Speaker 1: contemplate this because because one of the big things is

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Speaker 1: that emotions are the tumultuous see that we're constantly immersed

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Speaker 1: in and where we feel cast about in, you know.

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Speaker 1: And this is again this gets into poetry as well, Right,

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Speaker 1: how many poems are about you know, the mailstorm of emotion,

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Speaker 1: you know, and and and how we just feel like

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Speaker 1: we're just a victim to them. Well, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: we we often think of emotions as being something that's

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Speaker 1: inside us, but it's almost more apt to think of

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Speaker 1: us as being inside them. Like we can't see the

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Speaker 1: whole thing, We don't have perspective. We're it's more like

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Speaker 1: a c on which we are floating. I think that's

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Speaker 1: a great metaphor. And yet at the same time we

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Speaker 1: are the sea, you know, Like we often fall into this, uh,

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Speaker 1: into this model that I think is largely what you

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Speaker 1: see in the work of some of the you know,

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Speaker 1: the classic philosophers of logic and emotion, and then like

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Speaker 1: logic is the domain of you know, logic and reason

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Speaker 1: on one hand, and then they're the enemies of passion

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Speaker 1: that uh, that that tear us apart, the Apollo and

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Speaker 1: Dionysus model exactly. Yeah, and so it's easy to fall

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Speaker 1: back on that. It's just baked into so much of

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Speaker 1: our culture. Yeah, And and just in general, emotion is

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Speaker 1: just something we're too close to. I sometimes feel I

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Speaker 1: feel that emotion is like a cantalope, you know, like

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Speaker 1: when you buy a cantalope. When you cut, you don't

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Speaker 1: know what it's gonna be. You cut into it, though,

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Speaker 1: and when it's great, there's nothing else like it. It's amazing,

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Speaker 1: And when it's bad, it's just the worst. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I feel this way about candleop I feel

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Speaker 1: this way about tomatoes. Yeah, tom tomato. My favorite food

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Speaker 1: in the world is a really good ripe summer tomato.

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Speaker 1: And there's nothing worse than a meli offseason tomato. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the tomato is also a great example of human emotion.

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Speaker 1: And I think a lot of our meditative and monastic

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Speaker 1: traditions are ultimately aimed at fostering as much as possible,

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Speaker 1: a dependable honeydew melon mental state, something where you know,

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Speaker 1: you cut into it and it's not gonna be just

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Speaker 1: it's not gonna knock your socks off, but it's also

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Speaker 1: not going to discuss you. It's going to be a nice, pleasant,

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Speaker 1: dependable experience right there in the middle, calming the seas,

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Speaker 1: eliminating the highs and lows, creating equanimity. So this is

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Speaker 1: this is where we are. You know, we're feeling creatures

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Speaker 1: for better or worse. But we've always tried to figure

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Speaker 1: out emotions. We've tried to figure it out for for ages.

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Speaker 1: The greatest thinkers, philosophers, artists, scientist sages, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: religious leaders throughout history have contemplated their nature and formulated

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Speaker 1: various theories. And we could easily do a multi part

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Speaker 1: series on the question of human emotions. But the short

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Speaker 1: view is that we have basically three ways of considering them.

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Speaker 1: First of all, there's the idea of emotions as feelings.

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Speaker 1: The way they feel is what they are, so it's

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Speaker 1: a subjective state. And in that sense, the only emotion

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Speaker 1: you can ever really know is your own, like you

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Speaker 1: cannot share in anybody else's. You can think you do,

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Speaker 1: but you can't know for sure. I mean, does somebody

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Speaker 1: else's sadness feel like yours does? To somebody else's happiness

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Speaker 1: feel like yours does? It's it's you. You are trapped

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Speaker 1: with your subjectivity here, right, And then when you get

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Speaker 1: into theory of mind, I mean, I mean, that's a

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Speaker 1: whole issue there and itself, like, to what what degree

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Speaker 1: do we attribute the same level of emotional investment to others?

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Speaker 1: And in what cases are we attributing too much emotion

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Speaker 1: to this individual and less emotion to this individual based

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Speaker 1: on a whole host of reasons. Well so, but if

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Speaker 1: emotion is just subjectivity, it seems hopeless that you could

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Speaker 1: ever try to study it in animals. Right, If it's

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Speaker 1: just a subjective experience, we have no access to it whatsoever. Right,

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Speaker 1: And and that would be the danger, right if it

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Speaker 1: was just perpetually tied up in the other human concepts

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Speaker 1: of say, like consciousness and u uh in theory of mind, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: But then we have these other two categories. First of all,

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Speaker 1: emotions as evaluations. Emotions are evaluations of the primary circumstances

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Speaker 1: that we're dealing with. So, you know, a huge tie

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Speaker 1: to the environmental stimuli, situational stimuli all around us. So

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Speaker 1: emotions are ways of reacting to the world that their

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Speaker 1: internal states that signal a certain response to what you're

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Speaker 1: seeing or dealing with. Right, you go through a haunted

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Speaker 1: attraction around Halloween and you you feel something like fear

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Speaker 1: or that sort of related safe feeling of fear, whatever,

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Speaker 1: however you want to categorize it. Uh, that is a

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Speaker 1: product of the environment you thrust yourself into, all right,

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Speaker 1: And if these are internal states that are products of

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Speaker 1: evaluating an environment, you could then start to look at

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Speaker 1: patterns about what the what the features of those internal

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Speaker 1: states are, what do they do to the brain, what

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Speaker 1: do they cause? How do they cause you to react?

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Speaker 1: And I guess that would bring us to the next

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Speaker 1: way of looking at it. Right, Yes, emotions as motivations.

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Speaker 1: Emotions as primarily motivating states. So basically this would be

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Speaker 1: a situation of where I am angry and therefore I

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Speaker 1: strike out at somebody. It causes you to act in

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Speaker 1: a certain way. So there's a lot more to it

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Speaker 1: than this, but these are those sort of the three

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Speaker 1: basic pillars that are often discussed. So seemingly, you know

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Speaker 1: we can strike because we are angry. We're angry because

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Speaker 1: we strike, and then we also just feel angry, and

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Speaker 1: it all becomes this kind of cat's cradle of um

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Speaker 1: of physiology, behavior, and situational context. Another way to think

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Speaker 1: of emotions is this UH. This is a definition that

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Speaker 1: is often used conscious mental reactions that we subjectively experience,

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Speaker 1: and these strong feelings are typically directed towards a specific

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Speaker 1: object or person, resulting in or caused by UH or

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Speaker 1: certainly accompanied by physiological and aavioral change. However, as we'll

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Speaker 1: discussing these episodes, throwing consciousness into it rather complicates things

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Speaker 1: when we look to other animals, because while emotions are

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Speaker 1: certainly tied up in the human conscious experience, is consciousness

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Speaker 1: really required to have emotion? I think there is an

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Speaker 1: extremely strong argument that it is not. Well, you can

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Speaker 1: certainly imagine, say a robot that models emotional states without

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Speaker 1: being conscious, right, right, And so you don't know if

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Speaker 1: that's the case for any other animals. You don't know

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Speaker 1: to what extent they're subjectively feeling emotions like you and

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Speaker 1: I do, or like you presumably do. The robot could

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Speaker 1: still act angry, and it would still do all the

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Speaker 1: things that an angry person would do, or a robot

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Speaker 1: could act sad and still have all the reactions a

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Speaker 1: sad person would have. Like if again, if you're coming

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Speaker 1: back to emotions as evaluations, you could consider a screensaver

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Speaker 1: on a This is a very simple model of it,

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Speaker 1: but a screensaver on a computer s marine is a

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Speaker 1: response to um to what's going on in the world,

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Speaker 1: Like nobody's using the keyboard right now, somebody's away from

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Speaker 1: the machine, so a relaxed date comes into place. There

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Speaker 1: is a paper we're gonna look at later in the episode. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll come back to it in a bit, but it's

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Speaker 1: by a Clint J. Perry and Luigi Baccia Donna that

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Speaker 1: tried to put together all all of these disparate ways

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Speaker 1: of looking at emotion into a single definition that could

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Speaker 1: be used for objective research purposes, and it comes out

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Speaker 1: with something that will really make your heart burn. Is

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Speaker 1: just you know, full of feeling. Quote. Emotions are transient

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Speaker 1: central states comprising subjective, cognitive, behavioral, and physiological phenomena that

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Speaker 1: are triggered by appraisal of certain types of environmental stimuli.

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Speaker 1: On one hand, I think that's great because it really

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Speaker 1: does capture all the things you'd be looking for if

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Speaker 1: you're trying to study emotions in a scientific way. On

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Speaker 1: the other hand, that just sounds hilarious. I think that's

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Speaker 1: that's sentence is a great It is a great example

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Speaker 1: of why you need those three categories, because if you

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Speaker 1: run it all together there it just sounds it's a

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Speaker 1: little overwhelming. But if you break it down into three definite,

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Speaker 1: definite categories of consideration, I feel like it. It makes

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Speaker 1: a lot more sense, at least to me. Yeah, well,

427
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: we'll come back to another pretty similar way of breaking

428
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 1: it down when we actually look at the study. But

429
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 1: first I wanted to come back to the eight armed

430
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: world where we started, So we started off talking about

431
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 1: the paper Nautilus, the also known as the argonaut, this

432
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: great octopus that that builds a fortress of love. I

433
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 1: think the octopus world is a great place to start

434
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 1: if we're looking for what would be the clearest, easiest

435
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: examples to find of something that really, at least intuitively

436
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 1: looks like emotions in the invertebrate world. Because of course

437
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: it's it's long been a debate about whether thoughts and

438
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 1: emotions can be said to exist in animals other than humans.

439
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of scientists would take issue with

440
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 1: saying that there are emotions in any non human animals

441
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: because they would say, well, if we use human terms

442
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: like happy and sad, that's just anthropomorphic projection. There's no

443
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 1: way to prove it, and so forth. But I really

444
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: think intuitively most people are comfortable with the idea that

445
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: some analogs to human emotions exist in other animals with

446
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: complex brains, like mammals and birds. Yeah. I mean again,

447
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: I think part of the whole exercise is is casting

448
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: emotions down from that golden pedestal, casting away the poetry

449
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: and and thinking again about what they actually are. And

450
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: certainly it's I imagine that a duck is not It

451
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: never finds itself feeling sad about being sad or something,

452
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 1: so you know, conscious as the human model, but something

453
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: like sadness that we feel, you, you can certainly imagine

454
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: it in a duck or a cat or or any

455
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: of these. Certainly, these these higher organisms that come to mind.

456
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really easy to see things that at

457
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 1: least really intuitively look like emotions, whether we're interpreting them

458
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: right or not. In social animals like dogs, it's really

459
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: hard for me not to look at my dog and

460
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: think my dog is happy right now, or my dog

461
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: is angry or something right. I mean, with all the

462
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: complexities to come with with with making those kind of

463
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: statements about an animal, because again we can know, we

464
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: can never deny the power of anthropomorphism exactly. But one

465
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: of the first places I wanted to go here with

466
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: invertebrates is that I think what I just said about

467
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: my dog, this powerful intuitive sense of my you know,

468
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 1: day to day experience with a canine, that this animal

469
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: does feel emotions that are in some way similar to

470
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: the emotions I feel. If you wanted to look for

471
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: this pattern of intuition outside of our relationships with mammals,

472
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: I think the octopus is a great place to start.

473
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: So a couple of years ago, one of the books

474
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 1: that I recommended in our summer reading episode was a

475
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: book by an author named Si Montgomery called The Soul

476
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: of an Octopus, which is sort of a cross between

477
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: a zoology book about the octopus and a memoir about

478
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: the author's personal experiences with octopus minds and the people

479
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: who study and care for octopuses. And that book really

480
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: it still sticks with me today, and one of the

481
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: main reasons is that she presents in it all of

482
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: these anecdotes that look like genuinely powerful emotional connections and

483
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: interactions between humans and cephalopods. It reflects this steady, unshakable

484
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: sensation that many people who work with octopuses get, which is,

485
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 1: on one hand they see this strange alien kind of intelligence,

486
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: but on the other hand, they see a very familiar

487
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: human kind of intelligence and even emotion at work. Of course,

488
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: again with all the caveats that these impressions, you know,

489
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: they could be anthropomorphic projection. I think it's at least

490
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,479
Speaker 1: worth looking at the types of encounters that lead to

491
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: this sort of thinking, whether the thinking is correct or not. Yeah, yeah,

492
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: I agree that the octopus is a great example to

493
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: look to because it checks off so many opposite boxes.

494
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: You know, it is it is a It is a solid,

495
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: very creature that that lives in in a different environment

496
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: than we do, that has a totally different structure to

497
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: its body. It's it's like an alien compared to us.

498
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: Distributed intelligence. Also, I mean, the intelligence of an octopus

499
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: is not just central in its head, it's it's it

500
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: appears to be able to think with its arms in

501
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 1: ways that you know, if we can do something like that,

502
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: it's in a much more limited sense. So to cite

503
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: a couple of the many anecdotes and examples that appear

504
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: in the book, the first one is that at one

505
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: point she's sharing a story from a biologist named Scott Doud.

506
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: So Doubt is working in an aquarium where one of

507
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: his jobs is taking care of a dwarf Caribbean octopus

508
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 1: who lives in one of the small display tanks. And

509
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 1: one morning Doubt comes in to find this octopuss tank

510
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: overflowing onto the floor, and the octopus itself seems to

511
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: have vanished. It's not anywhere to be seen, and eventually

512
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: he finds it. He finds that it has managed to

513
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: squeeze itself into the tiny pipe that recirculates water in

514
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: the tank. This pipe is only about half an inch wide.

515
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: So obviously there's a problem because the water can't recirculate

516
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: because the octopus is clogging the pipe, and you need

517
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: to get the octopus out of the pipe. So what

518
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: do you do? I have no idea what you'd even

519
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: begin to do to get something out of an aperture

520
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: that's small without harming it. But Dowd in this moment.

521
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: He remembers having seen a National geographic special about fisherman

522
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: in Greece who were catching octopuses by setting out in

523
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: flora pots in the ocean as traps, and the octopuses

524
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: would squeeze themselves into these pots, which seemed like perfect

525
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: dens for them, only to then get hauled up to

526
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: the surface by the fisherman. But how do you get

527
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: the octopus out of the pot without breaking the pot? Well,

528
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: there was a very simple solution. These octopuses were saltwater creatures,

529
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: and the fishermen would pour fresh water into the pots.

530
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: So the octopus is obviously being you know, evolved for

531
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: saltwater environment. They don't like this at all, and they

532
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: would immediately slither out of the pot and be captured.

533
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: All right, That that makes sense. So of course Dowd

534
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: didn't want to kill and eat the dwarf octopus in

535
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: the tank, but he figured that the same process might

536
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: work to get it out of the pipe, and it did. Uh.

537
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: He flushed it with fresh water and the octopus came out.

538
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: Now years later, he tried the same trick to subdue

539
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: a misbehaving female giant Pacific octopus that he's working with

540
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,959
Speaker 1: and a lot of the emotional connections that people have

541
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: with octopuses in this book are with these giant Pacific octopuses.

542
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: They've they've got a lot of personality. But the story

543
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: goes that Dowd would you know, he was dealing with

544
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: this octopus. He would lift the top of the tank

545
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: up to feed it, and and she would put her

546
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: arms out and attach herself to his hands, and he

547
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: would be unable to get her to let go. And

548
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: if he managed to peel one of the creature's arms

549
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: off of him, she would just instantly wrapped two or more,

550
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: you know, around the same hand. Again, So like, how

551
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: do you get this pus off of you? Well, he

552
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: remembered his earlier experience with the tiny octopus in the

553
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: fresh water, so he got the idea to repel the

554
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: larger octopus the same way. He filled up a picture

555
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: in the sink and he poured it over the octopus

556
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: clinging to his hand, and again, at first it worked.

557
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: The octopus let go of him and recoiled sharply, and

558
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: Dowd said, for a moment he was proud of himself

559
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: for having rediscovered this useful trick and outsmarted this crafty creature.

560
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: But then to read the next section from Montgomery's book,

561
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: But the octopus was incensed. Quote she got scarlet red

562
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: and really thorny. It was a heated moment. What I

563
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: didn't notice, he said, was she was blowing herself up.

564
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: She siphoned up a massive load of water and gushed

565
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: a major surge of salt water onto my face. As

566
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: he stood there, dripping, Scott noticed the octopus had the

567
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: same look on her face as I must have had

568
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: on mine when I thought I had outwitted her. Now,

569
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: which part of the octopus is the face? Now Here? Here?

570
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: You may be onto something. I don't know. How do

571
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: you find the octopus is face? I mean it's got eyes,

572
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: but they're not really front facing, are they? I mean

573
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: we can easily, I mean again, our anthropomorphic powers are

574
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: such that we can easily devise one. I believe there

575
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: was a wasn't there recently an issue with the masters

576
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: of emoticons. They made an octopus emoticon that rearranged the

577
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: anatomy to make it look more face like, and I

578
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: believe a biologist corrected them on this. Oh wait a minute, though,

579
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: I know that you find an octopus face sometimes when

580
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: you look into your environment, because when you see the

581
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: forked coat hook on the door, you see the boxer octopus. Yes,

582
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: but I see a cartoon octopus. And cartoons are human

583
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: and have faces. Cartoon animals are generally animals that have

584
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: been made human. Okay, I guess you're right about that.

585
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: But coming back to the story about about Scott doubt

586
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: in the octopus, that there is something about this kind

587
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: of apparent anger and reciprocal vengeance that feels very much

588
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: like an analog of complex human emotion. Again, maybe you know,

589
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: we're maybe we're just overreading into a single anecdote, but

590
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: the book is full of anecdotes like this where people

591
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: really feel like they're having these emotionally charged interactions with

592
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: these eight armed critters. Yeah, Like a defensive display is

593
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: essentially what we're talking about here, um and and like

594
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: that does have an emotional resonance. Like if you see

595
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: a cat with a defensive display, a horse, a dog, etcetera,

596
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: Like you know what they're about, that there's a message

597
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: they are sending. Then there is a presumed emotional state

598
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: behind it. And you know, we we we get it.

599
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: We don't even have to be able to put it

600
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: into words to to know what that state is. Yeah,

601
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: and the really interesting part is not that it was

602
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: a defensive display when something was about to happen that

603
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: the octopus didn't like. It happened after, like he poured

604
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: the fresh water on it, then it went back in

605
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: its tank. Then it puffed up and got red and

606
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: shot him back, Like isn't that much more interesting than

607
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: if he'd been coming at it with something it didn't want.

608
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: But there's another part of the book I wanted to

609
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: talk about real quick that speaks of how persuasive the

610
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: octopus's behavior was in convincing the people who worked with

611
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: them that they had character, personality, and something like an

612
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: inner life quote. The students were supposed to refer to

613
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: their animals by numbers in their research papers, but they

614
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: ended up calling them by name jet Stream, Martha, Gertrude, Henry, Bob.

615
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: Some were so friendly. A researcher named Alexa said they

616
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: would lift their arms out of the water like a

617
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: dog jumps up to greet you, or like a child

618
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: who wants to be lifted up and hugged. And then

619
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: there's a there's one more story from Alexa in there.

620
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: Uh where she says quote and then there was Windy.

621
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: Alexe used her as part of her thesis presentation. It

622
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: was a formal event that was videotaped, for which Alexa

623
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: wore a nice suit. As soon as the camera started rolling,

624
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: Wendy drenched the student with salt water. The octopus scurried

625
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: to the bottom of the tank, hid in the sand,

626
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: and refused to come out. Alexas convinced the whole debacle

627
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: occurred because the octopus realized in advance what was going

628
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: to happen and resolve to prevent it. It's crafty. Now.

629
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: On the other hand, I think we need to recognize

630
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: that the subjective impressions of people who work directly with

631
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: animals are probably going to be prone to all kinds

632
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: of biases. I mean, even people who work with robots

633
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: tend to attribute lots of essentially human qualities of mind

634
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: to those robots. They name the robots. They think of

635
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: the robots as having personalities and intentions apart from their

636
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: explicit programming. You know, I often think Johnny the room

637
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: Baz is being mischievous. He's chasing me around the house,

638
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: around the kitchen right now. Uh, And yeah, we're not

639
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: tempted to actually think those impressions are telling it telling

640
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: us anything real about the emotions of robots. But I mean,

641
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: to whatever extent it would be useful in dealing with

642
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: robot or or more realistically, an animal. Uh, than we

643
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: see the usefulness of that anthropomorphism um like the you know,

644
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: the classic example being like, if you're dealing with an

645
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 1: animal that could be dangerous when it's uh, when it's

646
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 1: in a defensive mood, you know, uh, like it's it's

647
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: it's not so much about like the detail of the

648
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,959
Speaker 1: emotion that you were you were imagining in its head,

649
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: but but it's more about the degree to which it

650
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: matches up with how it may act and then allowing

651
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: you to respond appropriately or or to not respond at all.

652
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: Like this this animal is mad, this animal is aggressive.

653
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: I should not get close to it right now, but

654
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's one thing for a scientist to,

655
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: you know, to have to avoid intentionally inserting their anthropomorphic

656
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: feelings into a study. Uh, you know, but our but again,

657
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: our theory of mind powers are useful in our relationships

658
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: with animals. And I think you can you can, you

659
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: can you can state that they would be useful in

660
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: interactions with animals, even in a study, provided that you

661
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: could still separate those feelings from the data. Sure, I

662
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: mean I would say that they would be useful insofar

663
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 1: as they accurately predict outcomes, right, which sometimes they can.

664
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: So again, I think it's it's important for us to

665
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: be able to to take human emotions off of the

666
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: pedestal uh and and think more about what they are,

667
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: and and and stating that, Okay, um, you know, the

668
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: mind of an animal, the mind of an octopus or whatever,

669
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, their mind is a vessel that cannot hold

670
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 1: the shape of our own emotional states. But our experience

671
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: plus theory of mind allows us to have this instantaneous,

672
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: uh you know, almost translingual understanding of the basic properties

673
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: of the other's emotional state. Yeah. I mean, I guess

674
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: anytime we're trying to study emotional states, whether that's in

675
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: animals or really even in other people, I mean, you

676
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: have to accept the subjective disconnect, that you're not necessarily

677
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: talking about the same things in terms of subjective feelings,

678
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: but that once you get into these subjective criteria that

679
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 1: we alluded to earlier. And I guess what we're coming

680
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: back to now, know, um, you can start to look

681
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: for behavioral and cognitive analogies. Another way of thinking about it,

682
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: to go back to my earlier metaphor of the cat's

683
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: cradle of you know, of getting some yarn and weaving

684
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: it between your your fingers and creating a pattern. Right. Uh,

685
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: you know, criss crossing array of string cast between the

686
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: fingers of two hands. Ultimately, fewer or more fingers are

687
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 1: not going to make it any less a cat's cradle. Right.

688
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: So if if you know, if five fingers are the

689
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: shape of human cognitive complexity, there's a certain emotional um

690
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: web that we can weave and that we're trapped in

691
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: most of the time. But you know, animals say they

692
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: just have the have three fingers to cast that web with.

693
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: I mean they're still casting the web. And then we

694
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 1: might easily conceive what would it be like to to

695
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: cast a cat's cradle if you had seven fingers on

696
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: each hand? Uh? It would it would be more complex,

697
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: It might be difficult for us to imagine what that

698
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: would be like cognitively, emotionally, or what have you, but

699
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: it would still be something that is relatable to that experience. Well,

700
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: maybe we should take another break and then when we

701
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: come back, we can discuss relating the human experience of

702
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: emotions to analogous uh behaviors and cognition and animals. Alright,

703
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: we're back. We've been talking about emotion. We've been talking

704
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: about emotion in animals and what exactly we would be

705
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: looking for in trying to find that emotion, especially emotion

706
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: in invertebrates. Because people are generally, I think, more comfortable

707
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 1: with the idea that we see something strongly analogous to

708
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: human emotions and other animals like say, you know, mammals

709
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: with complex brains, social mammals and stuff, right like not

710
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: Not only is everyone I think pretty on board with

711
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: the idea to say dogs have emotions, or even cats

712
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: have emotions, it would be it would almost be socially

713
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: dangerous to suggest otherwise. Are you saying you want to

714
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: suggest otherwise? No, you're afraid no, No, I think, especially

715
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: again going back to the idea of taking the human

716
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: poetic idea of emotion and bringing it down to a

717
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: more realistic level, stripping the poetry away from it, I

718
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 1: think without a doubt dogs and cats and and other

719
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: organisms we might even sometimes not not wish to think

720
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: about having emotions such as pigs and cows. Um. Uh,

721
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: you know, they definitely have emotional states. Uh. So yeah,

722
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: I would not be the one to suggest that dogs

723
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: don't have emotions. And I pity the person who does

724
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: make that suggestion because they will be attacked on the street. Well,

725
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: let's see if we can start some street fights about

726
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 1: crowd ads. Okay, so for the next for the rest

727
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: of this episode, and then for most of the next episode. Also,

728
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: I think we're going to be looking mainly at this

729
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: one paper. It was a good paper I found published

730
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: in seventeen in the Journal of Experimental Biology by Clint J.

731
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: Perry and Luigi Battia Donna called studying Emotion in Invertebrates

732
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: What has been done, what can be measured, and what

733
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: they can provide? Uh. And so these two researchers, I

734
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: believe are both at Queen Mary University of London, And

735
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: this is not a single study but large review of

736
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: existing research on invertebrate emotions. There actually aren't that many

737
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: studies on invertebrate emotions. It's a fairly recent field, but

738
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: what is out there is at least in my mind,

739
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 1: very interesting. Now. The authors point out that Invertebrates have

740
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: long played a role in the history of neuroscience. It

741
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 1: was researching invertebrates in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries

742
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: that taught us what neurons were and how they were structured. Uh.

743
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: Insects are often believed to lack the structural neural complexity

744
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: necessary to generate complex states like emotions. That people think

745
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 1: their brains are just too simple, you know, when you've

746
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: got a brain that structurally simple, with you know, such

747
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: a few number of neurons, they just couldn't have a

748
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: complex state like a persistent emotional state. Uh. And their

749
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,919
Speaker 1: behavior is often characterized as in terms of simple sense

750
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: or emotor response. So a snail or a spider might

751
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: have an automatic response that causes it to retreat from

752
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: a hot match, but the animal isn't feeling anything that

753
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: could reasonably be called called, you know, anger or fear

754
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: persistent emotional state. That that's often the view. But the

755
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: authors think this old view is due for revision due

756
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: to this growing body of research showing various invertebrates, not

757
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 1: just octopuses like we were just talking about, being capable

758
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: of mental phenomena previously considered unthinkable, including all kinds of

759
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 1: stuff concept learning, numerical cognition, cultural transmission, and so forth.

760
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: So in order to study emotion and animals, we need

761
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: to land on a definition that that makes emotions susceptible

762
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: to external detection. And that's where that definition that I

763
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier in the episode comes in again. It is quote,

764
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 1: emotions are transient central states comprising subjective, cognitive, behavioral, and

765
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 1: physio ugical phenomena that are triggered by appraisal of certain

766
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: types of environmental stimuli. So something in the environment causes

767
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: it the animals. Appraisal of that thing in the environment

768
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: triggers an internal state. And these internal states have subjective, cognitive, behavioral,

769
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 1: and physiological effects. And when you break it down like that, uh,

770
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: I feel like you have a model then that you

771
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 1: can you can you can certainly, you know, informally attribute

772
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,959
Speaker 1: to a wide variety of organisms, but more to the point,

773
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: you can you can potentially test for it exactly. And

774
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: well you can definitely test for like three of the

775
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: four effects. You can't test for subjective states. We don't eat.

776
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: That goes back to the three examples we had are earlier.

777
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,959
Speaker 1: That feeling is what it feels like yeah, you can't

778
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: do that, but the other three you can. So, emotions

779
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: are thought to have cognitive effects. Emotions affect how you

780
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 1: think and how you perceive. They have behavioral effects. Emotions

781
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: affect what you do with your body, and they have

782
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: physiological effects. Emotions affect unconscious or involuntary reactions within the body.

783
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: So just for example, to use fear, there is of

784
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 1: course the subjective experience of fear, and we can only

785
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: know this in the first person. You just assume by

786
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: analogy that everybody else feels a similar subjective experience when

787
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: they're afraid. But external observers, you know, could document cognitive

788
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: changes during fear, such as increased awareness of sensory stimulized

789
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: signaling danger. Maybe, for example, when an animal is feeling fear,

790
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: it is more likely to notice movement in its peripheral vision.

791
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: In this state, you could notice behavioral changes such as

792
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: threat displays or retreat behaviors. You could notice physiological changes

793
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,839
Speaker 1: such as increased heart rate or the release of fight

794
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: or flight hormones like epinefrin or epernefer and and all that.

795
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: You can notice dilated pupils, relaxation of the bladder, etcetera. Yeah,

796
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: I mean, we to to go back to episodes that

797
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: we've we've done on human fear and like the nature

798
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: of fear. Uh, it's uh, it really changed. It kind

799
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: of changes who you are. It always makes me think

800
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: of the Hunter S. Thompson quote that you're a whole

801
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: different person when you're scared. Uh. You know, we think

802
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: we know how we're going to behave in in a

803
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: situation of real fear, but we can't always be sure

804
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: unless we have sort of you know, performed enough exercises

805
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: and fear if you will, and even then there there

806
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: may be unknowns well. Of course, so fear, like other emotions,

807
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: has cognitive and behavioral effects, in some cases very strong ones.

808
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: What is who you are, It is your how you

809
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: think and how you act. Yeah, I mean there are

810
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: studying again these are human studies, but you know, there

811
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: are studies that have looked at how fear and uncertainty

812
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 1: affect our politics. You know, something is you know, generally

813
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: we think of it's very very complex and nuanced and

814
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: based in ideas and very stable. Yeah, it's just based

815
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: on what we believe in a kind of permanent or

816
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: semi permanent way. But no, I mean people's political opinions

817
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: appear to fluctuate based on their their emotional states day

818
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 1: to day, moment to moment. Yeah, which of course should

819
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: not come as a surprise if you're you know, aware

820
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 1: of the degree to which emotions are manipulated by politicians.

821
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: But but but yeah, like you, you add you change

822
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: the emotional state, you change how the animal behaves and

823
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: perceives the world. Right, So I think in the time

824
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: we have left to in today's episode, we've got time

825
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 1: to look at the first one of these, the cognitive

826
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 1: tests for invertebrate emotions, and we'll have to save the

827
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: other types of tests for the next episode. But to

828
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: look at the cognitive tests, one of the things that

829
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 1: you can do to study emotions in uh in humans

830
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: of course, but also in other animals is something known

831
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: as a judgment bias test. So imagine what is meant

832
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 1: by a test phrase. Here's a test phrase. The doctor

833
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,439
Speaker 1: examined little Emily's growth. Alright, well, that that just brings

834
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: to mind that the clear image of little Emily, and

835
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: like a Norman Norman Rockwell painting, be exam being examined

836
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 1: by the doctor, and the doctor finding this grotesque mass

837
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: on the back of her neck. Well, it turns out

838
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 1: so this is an ambiguous phrase. People interpret it different ways,

839
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: and at least in some studies, people with some conditions

840
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 1: negative emotional conditions like depression or generalized anxiety were more

841
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: likely on average to read this ambiguous statement as being like,

842
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: what you're talking about about some kind of disease growth,

843
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 1: People with without anxiety or depression, or people who had

844
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 1: formerly had these conditions and are now considered cured or

845
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: in remission were more likely to interpret it as measuring

846
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: normal growth in childhood. He as in he measured her height. Yeah.

847
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: So um so, first of all, I have to say,

848
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: so so the way that I answered it in the show,

849
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 1: here's also the way I responded to the text when

850
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: I read it for me to so, and it is

851
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: it is is entirely possible that that it comes from

852
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 1: me having just a generally anxious a depressed state. However,

853
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: I do have questions about to what degree this test

854
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: phrase is weighted, because if you simply add and development

855
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: to the end of this test phrase, granted, it makes

856
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: it more specific and it's less ambiguous, but then but

857
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: there also means there's no question if you say the

858
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: doctor examined a little Emily's growth and development, you're not

859
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: going to say, oh, he he was the doctor was

860
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: looking at not only the weird thing on her neck,

861
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: but also how she's developing. I don't know. Oh, I

862
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: feel like that would just make it not ambiguous anymore. Yeah,

863
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: it's true, but I also just it just feels it

864
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: feels manipulative that that phrase to me. So I was

865
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: looking around a little bit about this to see if

866
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: anybody else had any problems with this. Uh. And it

867
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 1: does seem as if the depressional link negative interpretation bias

868
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: findings are not without at least some criticism. Uh. Claire

869
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: Lawson and Colin McLeod bring it up in Depression in

870
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: the Interpretation of Ambiguity, and they pointed out that we

871
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,439
Speaker 1: could be talking about more about like a depressional link

872
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: response by us reflecting an elevated ten to see for

873
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 1: depressives to admit or endorse negatively toned response options. So

874
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: so under this model, it's possible that depression maybe just

875
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: is affecting more like what you're likely to say to

876
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: other people rather than what you're actually likely to represent internally. Yeah,

877
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: and I guess in this we're getting into the complexity

878
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: of of language and social interaction on it, you know. Um. Also,

879
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: others have argued that interpretation biases and depression might be

880
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: limited to interpretations for the self. So unless you are

881
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: little Emily uh there, perhaps wouldn't be that much of

882
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: an impact here. Um. You know. So it's in a way,

883
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: it's kind of like self deprecating humor, you know, like

884
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: it's it's it's more about how you're feeling, and it's

885
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: about the the stuff in the world that's directly affecting you,

886
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 1: which makes sense because these emotional states are largely going

887
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: to be connected to you or things of value to you,

888
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: not some random little girl in a an example phrase, Well,

889
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to put too much on that one

890
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: example phrase. Maybe that's not a great example. Well it's

891
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: it's probably the better. I found a couple of phrases

892
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: as well that we're used in other studies, but that

893
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: one was still the best and one that's frequently cited.

894
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: Um elsewhere. I found a two thousand seven study published

895
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 1: in Cognition and Emotion from Bison and Sears, and they

896
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: found no negative interpretive bias in their studies. But that's

897
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: not to say that an emotional state won't just generally

898
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,439
Speaker 1: influence how information or stimuli is received. A loving touch

899
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: may startle you and spin you around in a defensive stance,

900
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: if you are primed for a hostile physical encounter. Well, yeah,

901
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 1: I mean there there could be very salient criticisms that

902
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: I'm not aware of. I thought I understood like that,

903
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 1: it's pretty well documented within humans and animals that. Yeah, that, like,

904
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: negative mood does tend to bias perception. So when you

905
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 1: encounter something ambiguous, if you're feeling angry or sad, you're

906
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 1: more likely to interpret the ambiguous thing in a pessimistic way. Yeah,

907
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: and I think that that is definitely the case. I guess. Well,

908
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: the main thing I wanted to drive home is I

909
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: didn't want anybody to engage in this sort of exercise

910
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,240
Speaker 1: with us here and have the same knee jerk reaction

911
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: that we did and then immediately assume that it means

912
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: that they have an anxiety problem or or in a

913
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,240
Speaker 1: depressive state. Well, I mean, even if you did react

914
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: that way, and even if the test is generally valid,

915
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: it would just be like one answer, you'd have to

916
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 1: like do an average of a bunch of different things

917
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: to figure out what's you know, more likely the case? Right, Yes,

918
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 1: but you know we're humans and we tend to jump

919
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: to conclusions and engage in I guess, um, what is

920
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: the the X Men personality test that we've a factor

921
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: that we've discussed in the show before X Man. I

922
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: don't remember this, well, the name is eluding me at

923
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: the moment, but you know, when you you engage like

924
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: the fortune cookie scenario or the um the astrological chart

925
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: scenario where the future is read and it's just a

926
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: little piece of paper telling you something random, but you

927
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 1: immediately identify things about yourself in that safe release the

928
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: horror effects, yes, the Barnum effect also, know, yes, yeah,

929
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 1: a little something for everybody. Well, I think we we

930
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: can certainly log possible criticisms of the judgment bias effect

931
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: and keep them as an asterisk over what we're about

932
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: to read, which you know it may in some ways

933
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: be undercut by any weakness in the inherent paradigm. But

934
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 1: in some existing research on animals, we people have tried

935
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 1: to use judgment bias tests to see if there is

936
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: cognitive evidence of emotions and animals, and you can do

937
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: this in some animals, Like if you take rats and

938
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: you train them to distinguish between two different tones, say

939
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 1: a high pitch tone and a low pitch tone, and

940
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: then in the enclosure with the rats is a lever

941
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 1: that they can press. So if they press the lever

942
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: when they hear the high pitch tone, they get a

943
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: food pellet reward, but if they press the lever when

944
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: they hear the low pitch tone, they get an unpleasant

945
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: blast of white noise. So they learn and they get

946
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,240
Speaker 1: good at telling the difference. When the high pitch tone plays,

947
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 1: they are quick to press the lever and get the

948
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: food reward. When the low pitch tone plays, they hang back.

949
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: They either take a long time to press the lever

950
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,280
Speaker 1: or they don't press it at all. And it turns

951
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: out you can manipulate something like the rats mood or

952
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: emotional state you know asterisk with all the caveats that

953
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: are implied there to bias their judgments about new ambiguous stimuli.

954
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: So what happens when you play a tone in between

955
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: the two tones that the rats have been trained on.

956
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: The studies show that, say, if you tilt the rats

957
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 1: housing up at an angle, or if you wet the

958
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: rats betting or introduce an unfamiliar rat to the group.

959
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: When the ambiguous tone plays, the rats will be much

960
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: more avoidant of the lever in response to this this

961
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: ambiguous stimuli than rats in a control condition with normal

962
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: stable housing conditions, which are more likely to interpret the

963
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: ambiguous tone optimistically and run and press the lever. So

964
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: what this looks like again? And of course you know

965
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: we could be overreading into it, but it looks like

966
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: if you put rats in something like a bad emotion

967
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: tional state by making them uncomfortable and uneasy, they're going

968
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 1: to interpret unfamiliar information in a pessimistic way, whereas quote

969
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: happy rats are more likely to interpret unfamiliar information in

970
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: an optimistic way. So it's an emotional state based on

971
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: experience that is preparing the rat to deal with um,

972
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:25,439
Speaker 1: with with incoming stimuli or or incoming environmental situations. Yeah,

973
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,720
Speaker 1: I mean it looks like a quote bad mood puts

974
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: the animal in a kind of defensive posture where it's

975
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,720
Speaker 1: less likely to explore an experiment and it's less likely

976
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: to to take a risk. It's more just kind of

977
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: hunkered down, right, Yeah, So it's you know, it's like

978
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: um and again, I think this helps to demystify the

979
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: human experience of some of these emotions, even though these

980
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: emotions get arguably more complex when you bring in human

981
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 1: language and so forth. But if every time in the

982
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: past that I've gone to a specific fast food restaurant

983
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: I have I've gotten ill, then in the future when

984
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: I go back, I'm going to be on guard against

985
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 1: incoming illness. Of course. Yeah, I mean that's like classical

986
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: conditioning one totally. So I mean, really, that's that's what

987
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 1: we're talking about here, um, you know, And I do

988
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 1: think it does serve to demystify something like fear, but really,

989
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: any of the emotions, even the law you know, the

990
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: loftier emotions like uh like you know, like love uh

991
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: that you know, we need to to to take bring

992
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: them to bring them down a few steps anyway, so

993
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: that we can attribute these things to animals as well. Yeah. Now, obviously,

994
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,359
Speaker 1: I think, as you and I have discussed before, it's

995
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: more difficult to study some emotions than others, so you'll

996
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: find more studies on on invertebrates. We're about to get

997
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: into an invertebrate example, on things like aversion and anxiety

998
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: and fear than you will in invertebrate love, though there

999
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: are some with invertebrate positive emotions that I think are

1000
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: very interesting. We'll get to one and just it's generally

1001
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 1: easier to take an animal out of its natural habitat

1002
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: and study it by making it feel anxious us and afraid,

1003
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,359
Speaker 1: as opposed to making it feel at home. I mean, really,

1004
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: that's one of one of the problems and some of

1005
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 1: these studies that have been conducted with um specifically, I

1006
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: guess I'm thinking of rats and addiction, right, Like, are

1007
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: you are you testing for the response to these substances

1008
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: under you know, ideal sort of ambiguous circumstances or is

1009
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 1: it within the world of a rat prison that you've

1010
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 1: created in a room somewhere, yeah, or is it unnatural

1011
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: within the rat prison? But the results are useful to

1012
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: us anyway, because the rats and the rat prison are

1013
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: kind of analogous to the way humans live. Now, Yeah,

1014
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 1: it's like I said, it's it gets complicated. But anyway

1015
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: to to move to invertebrates with the idea of the

1016
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: judgment bias test. At least three studies so far have

1017
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: shown possible evidence of the judgment bias effect in bees, bees.

1018
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:53,720
Speaker 1: You know, this is there's another example of an animal

1019
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: that we generally don't We don't attribute a lot of

1020
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: personality to or certainly emotional states. But uh, they are,

1021
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 1: they're complicated organisms. They're they're they're fascinating creatures. Yes, well,

1022
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: let's take a look and see what we think. So

1023
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: the authors here site two studies Bates and at All

1024
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven and Schloons at All in two

1025
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: thousand seventeen that studied this effect, the judgment bias effect

1026
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: in honey bees or APIs malifera. So bees were trained

1027
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,800
Speaker 1: on two different kinds of chemical odors that they sensed

1028
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: with their antennae, which were associated with two different sugar

1029
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: solutions that they could extend their probosis to taste. So

1030
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: when odor A was sensed, that was associated with a

1031
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: sweet sugar solution, and when odor B was sensed, that

1032
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 1: was associated with a bitter quinine solution, which the bees

1033
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: did not like tasting. So if you train them on

1034
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: this right, once they smell odor A, they're going to

1035
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: be like, oh, boy, sugars coming, and that you know,

1036
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,399
Speaker 1: that's the condition response. When they smell odor B, they're

1037
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 1: going to be like, oh, that's the bitter quinine. I

1038
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: don't want any of it. They get conditioned like this,

1039
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 1: and then the manipulation came when the researchers would go

1040
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: and shake the bees housing vigorously for sixty seconds. And

1041
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: this was supposed to simulate a natural attack on the

1042
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: colony by a predator such as a honey badger. And

1043
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 1: to quote here, After the shaking manipulation, bees were tested

1044
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:17,439
Speaker 1: with ambiguous odor mixtures intermediate between the two mixtures used

1045
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: for training. In both studies, honey bees subjected to the

1046
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: shaking were less likely to respond to the ambiguous odor

1047
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: mixture closest in ratio to the oder mixture associated with

1048
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: quinine during training, suggesting that shaking induces a negative cognitive

1049
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: bias to ambiguous odor cues. So when the odor was

1050
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: somewhere between the other two odors chemically, especially when it

1051
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: was closer to the bad odor, the bees that had

1052
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: been shaken were more likely to say I don't want

1053
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: any of that. Again, this looks like a pessimistic bias. Yeah, clearly,

1054
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: it seems like a clear case. Uh. Now, The authors

1055
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: do offer an important caveat here they say quote. However,

1056
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 1: it has been argued that shaking may cause bees to

1057
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:05,919
Speaker 1: become better discriminators. Shaking increased hemolymph concentrations of octopamine, which

1058
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: can modulate sensory function. And hemo lymph again is like

1059
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: insect blood that of blood. They have hemal lymph this

1060
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: other circulatory fluid, and so it increased this uh, this

1061
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 1: thing called octopamine, which is similar I believe to nora

1062
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 1: adrenaline in mammals and humans. Uh So, remember that the

1063
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 1: shaking really seemed to make a difference when the odor

1064
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 1: was ambiguous but closer to the odor associated with the

1065
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 1: bitter food. So maybe shaken bees are just better at

1066
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: sensing that closeness to the bad outcome because of non

1067
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: emotional physiological reasons. That's also possible. But this isn't the

1068
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: only test of judgment bias effect in bees. Period all

1069
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: In sixteen also studied the same thing, but in the

1070
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: opposite direction, optimistic bias created by pleasure or happiness, or

1071
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: at least what you might call an analog of pleasure

1072
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: or happiness in bumble bees. So again there was a

1073
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: similar are type of setup. They would train bumble bees

1074
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: to respond to two possible visual cues. There would be

1075
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: a green card on the left that has a cup

1076
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: of sugar water solution underneath it. This is the reward queue.

1077
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: And then a blue card on the right that has

1078
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: a cup of regular water underneath it, and this is

1079
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: the control que. Trained bumble bees would learn to go

1080
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: straight to the green card on the left when it

1081
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: was present to get the sugar they you know, they

1082
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 1: don't bother with the blue card on the right. Now,

1083
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 1: what happens when you put a bluish greenish card in

1084
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 1: the middle of the two positions. Well, the study showed

1085
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 1: that if you give the bees a little bit of

1086
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 1: sugar reward before the test, they approached the ambiguous new

1087
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 1: stimulus the blue green card in the middle position faster

1088
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: than if you don't give them any sugar. And so

1089
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 1: the authors hearsay quote. Control experiments showed that after consumption

1090
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: of the small unexpected reward, bees did not increase their

1091
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 1: flight speed and we're not more likely to explore novel stimuli,

1092
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 1: suggest thing that the small reward did not simply increase

1093
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 1: the bees general activity or exploration, but was indeed due

1094
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 1: to changes in their decision making processes under ambiguity, thus

1095
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: resembling optimism in humans. Uh So again, there could be

1096
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 1: something wrong here that we're that we're missing, but at

1097
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: least it on the surface, it looks like the bees

1098
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: are just expecting better outcomes with ambiguous possibilities when they've

1099
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: had a little bit of sugary treats. Right. So, I

1100
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 1: think one of the big takeoffs from this is that

1101
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 1: it is going you have to think of emotion is

1102
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 1: being tied to how we navigate the world, and we

1103
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: are not the only organism that has to navigate a

1104
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 1: world of of changing circumstances and and because clearly the

1105
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 1: bee has to do that as well, and it has

1106
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 1: similar abilities that result or our and ore and or

1107
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: are caused by emotional states. Yeah, but I think we've

1108
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 1: got to call it for this first episode, and we

1109
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 1: can come back and explore some more research along these

1110
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 1: lines next time and the knee time. If you want

1111
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

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1116
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1120
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: the show huge thanks as always to our excellent audio

1121
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get

1122
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or

1123
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,160
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1125
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