1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Also media. Happy New Year, everybody. Welcome to Behind the Bastards. 2 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: I'll be leading this episode. I am your executive producer, 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: Sophie Lickterman. I'm gonna ask Robert some of your questions. Robert, 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: how you doing, buddy. 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 2: I'm doing. You know. It's that fun time of the 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: year where the holidays are over. We still don't quite 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: have to work. But also I can feel it coming 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: the real world, having to get back into the real world, 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: you know, So that part's not great, the like looming 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 2: knowledge that the stuff that you were like, ah, the 11 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,319 Speaker 2: world's over, news is over. I don't have to pay 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 2: attention to anything for the next period of time. Well, 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 2: that period of time has come to an end and 14 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: it's time to re engage with reality. I'm at that 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: part of the year, so, you know, mixed. 16 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, what was a highlight for you over your semi 17 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: time off. 18 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: I don't know, not really any particular highlight. I just 19 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 2: didn't do much. 20 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: Excuse me. We had a party, thank you, and your 21 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: highlight was it starting fire with the lightsaber torch I 22 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: got you. 23 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, you got me a lightsaber torch that I started 24 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 2: a fire with. That was fun. 25 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: It looked really good. 26 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 2: Got me some nice liquor that was fun. 27 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: I did you did? You looked very cool that night. Yeah, 28 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: Robert got me. Every year Robert gets me some kind 29 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 1: of really cool weapon. At the beginning of twenty twenty five, 30 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: he got me a bowie knife after I had surgery. 31 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: Everybody else set flowers, not my business partner. Robert got 32 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: me a really cool axe. 33 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 2: One. 34 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: You're shetty what you called Sophie. This is your perse knife, 35 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: which was one of my favorite things you've ever said 36 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: to me. 37 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: And this year everyone needs a perse knife. 38 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: You got me this thing. Yeah. 39 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a it's a Moroccan like a ceremonial dagger, 40 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: so you know you're supposed to it's like a it's 41 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: a I think it's like one hundred years old, post 42 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: to beaut and weddings and kind of fancy events like that. 43 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: I can do. I could stand and do some rehab 44 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 2: on the blade for you, because it's kind of dull 45 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: at the moment, but yeah, you could. You could cut. 46 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: You could cut like a I got like a goat's 47 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 2: throat with that if you had to, if you're being 48 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: attacked by a goat and had to defend yourself with 49 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 2: a knife. You know it would work for that. It's 50 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: pretty cool. 51 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: You also one year for my birthday, got me this 52 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: uh like horseshoe knife that's like for like that looks 53 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: like a horseshoe, but it's for like a cheeseboard. I 54 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: got caught all the time. 55 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: And I yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that knife. 56 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: Robert's a great gift giver everybody. 57 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: Anyways, it's easy if you're just getting knives. 58 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, nobody gives me a knife the 59 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: way you give me a knife, you know what I mean? 60 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: Thank you. 61 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: We got four hundred and eighty one comments on the 62 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: thread asking for for questions for this Q and A as 63 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: of time of recording, which is New Year's Day. Everyone, 64 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask as many as many as we have 65 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: time for you. 66 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: Ready, let's let's do it. Let me let me get 67 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 2: a slug of my mountain dew. Baja Blast. 68 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: Shut the fuck up, that's what you're drinking? 69 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 2: Yeah? Maybe good? Yeah you're free Baja Blast. 70 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: Do I need to drink that? Because I I've got 71 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: a I've got a sweat? 72 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: Is that what you say? 73 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: I don't even know if that's how you say it. 74 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: It's bad swepes. 75 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that seems that sounds right. I know what you're 76 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 2: talking about. 77 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: That's a good ginger. Wait, uh do I need to 78 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: drink that. 79 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:28,839 Speaker 2: I wouldn't recommend it. 80 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: It's not good fair enough unless you want to sponsor 81 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: this mountain. 82 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: Dew then yeah, sure, then it's great. 83 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: Then we'll say whatever you want. Anyways. Uh, what are 84 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: your tips and tricks for identifying false information while doing 85 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: your research? 86 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: Well, hmm, that's tough because there's such like a wide 87 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: variety of false information right, and and and some there's 88 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: not really any basic tips that can help. I call 89 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: this like good natured disinformation or good natured bad information. 90 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: And it's no one's trying to propagandize you, no one's 91 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: trying to like fuck with you. It's just a false 92 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: version of reality has spread because somebody got a story 93 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: wrong and started telling it, and other people have been 94 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: like retelling it and adding into it. And if there's 95 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: not like an agenda, that's kind of hard. You just 96 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: have to actually dig into like what the work historians 97 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: have done. I would say, as a general rule, if 98 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 2: something sounds too good to be true, like if it's 99 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 2: exactly what you want to believe about a really complicated 100 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 2: and difficult situation, you should take a second look at it. 101 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 2: And if it just sounds like too cool and wacky 102 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: and like something in a movie, like a lot of 103 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 2: times that is true. A lot of times history is 104 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: crazier than anything that winds up in a movie. But 105 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 2: if there's like a specific anecdote that I'm like, I 106 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: don't know, I'll just like type a description of that 107 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 2: anecdote in and then I'll put in like ask historians, 108 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: Reddit or something like that to see if and that 109 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: gets rid of the low hanging fruit. Right, if it's 110 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: common disinformation or a common just like inaccuracy that gets 111 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 2: spread around, someone who knows their shit will have talked 112 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: about it there and will have sources. Right, so you're 113 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 2: not just relying on a Reddit post. You can look back. 114 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: You can find where the myth has been busted. You 115 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 2: can also just like type in again like a brief 116 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: description of the anecdote, comma, myth, comma, you know, something 117 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: like that to see if like it has been discussed 118 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 2: in that context or if there have been a lot 119 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 2: of times, which you'll find as historians who are analyzing 120 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 2: it and who have found Okay, this these couple of 121 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: parts probably aren't true. This part might be surprisingly true, 122 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: but like, that's that's kind of how I go about 123 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 2: doing that sort of thing. If you're asking about, like 124 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: how do you tell if like pictures or videos are 125 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: AI generated, that's a separate set of like skills and 126 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 2: tactics that probably runs longer than we have in this episode. 127 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: But when I'm just like casually studying history and I 128 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 2: come across something that I'm like, I don't know about that. 129 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 2: It's also useful when you are reading a history book 130 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: when you've like, especially like if it's kind of more 131 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: in the pop history side of things, and you're really 132 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: enjoying it. That always, if it's super entertaining and I 133 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 2: find myself like unusually into it, sometimes that's just a 134 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: sign that like a really good writer got a hold 135 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 2: of some history. But it's also sometimes a sign that, 136 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 2: like someone's massaging the facts to make a better piece 137 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 2: of pop history. So I will search for the book 138 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 2: and variations of like historians analyzed response from historian and 139 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 2: see are there some professionals who have better or equivalent 140 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 2: credentials to the author who have taken issue with some 141 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 2: of the claims that they've made right. These are all 142 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 2: kind of like tactics that you can use. There's not 143 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: like a one size. 144 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: Fits all, and like how many sources are using for 145 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: different things. I feel like, never just accept one source. 146 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: You try not to accept one every now and then 147 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: you run into something where like, well, there's really one 148 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 2: book about this guy, or there's like one good book 149 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 2: about this thing, and I will at least try then 150 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 2: to like come across like, well, what's some like untrue, 151 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 2: what are some bad books? Like what's some bullshit that 152 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 2: got spread? Because then at least we're broadening it from 153 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: here's what's in that book too, and here's some stuff 154 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: that's spread that's not true or whatever, like you try to, 155 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: Like when I'm at least putting together the podcast, I 156 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: always want to be saying like, Okay, there's there's more 157 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: than is just in this one source. Like when I 158 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 2: was working on the new episodes, I started reading that 159 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: any Jacobson book. I realized that there's a number of 160 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 2: people who have some good issues with that book, including 161 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: somebody discussed in the episode. So I read two other books, 162 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: and I read that John Rubel's like you know essays 163 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: and stuff because they provided like more context and when 164 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: I looked at the stuff. Okay, there's people who have 165 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: like issues with this part of Jacobson's book, but they 166 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 2: seem to speak highly of command and Control. So why 167 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 2: don't I use, you know, for that segment of the history. 168 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: I'll focus more on what command and control or what 169 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: fifteen minutes has to say. And that way, number one, 170 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: you're just you're getting a more varied You're giving the listeners, 171 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 2: the audience something more varied and effortful. Then just here's 172 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: one book and what one guy said in one book. 173 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: And you're also hopefully avoiding some of the most obvious pitfalls. 174 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: Sure, and I mean again just to say the obvious. 175 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: Never trust the Google AI summary. 176 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 2: No, no, And you can always when you're googling. Now, 177 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 2: if you just want to avoid that, just with whatever 178 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 2: you're typing in add minus AI at the end, just 179 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: a space and then minus AI. And it doesn't mean 180 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 2: that there won't be AI generated articles or whatever in 181 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: your responses. That's basically impossible to avoid, but it cuts 182 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 2: out the AI generated summary because that alone. Sometimes it's right, 183 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: and when it's right, it's like fine, I guess, but 184 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: the downside is when it's right, you'll read that instead 185 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 2: of reading an actual source that probably will tell you more. 186 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: And it's also hard to tell when it's wrong, and 187 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 2: there's often just kernels of wrong baked into the right, 188 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 2: and you're really doing yourself more of a favor by 189 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 2: trying to find a better source. I find that just 190 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: not having that little summary there can kind of like 191 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 2: avoid you sort of casually almost acts, because sometimes it's accidental. 192 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 2: Sometimes you can't just the way your brain works, your 193 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 2: eyes work, You're going to read part. 194 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 3: Of that summary even before you scroll down, right, Yeah, 195 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: even if you are scrolling down to read a real thing, 196 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 3: you may catch something in there and not realizing it, 197 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 3: realize that you're picking up some disinformation. 198 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: So I kind of start with that, like that's my baseline. 199 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 2: I've also I'm you can do the same thing on 200 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 2: Duck duck go, I think, so I've been using that more. 201 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: I'm kind of experimenting. I'm hoping to find this next year, 202 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: like a search engine solution that I'm happier with, because 203 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: nothing that we've got right now is better than Google 204 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: was like six years ago. But I've found Duck duck 205 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: Go generally better than Google now and doing the minus 206 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: AI you know, thing gets you better like or at 207 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 2: least reduces the odds of you getting some bad information. 208 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: Sure what bastard or bastards have you not done because 209 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: the research will take too long or they're just too complicated? 210 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: Uh? I mean, I haven't done the Nixon episode yet 211 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: because there's so many books that I know I need 212 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: to get through to do it. And that's only part 213 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: of it. I had been planning to do it in 214 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four and talked about doing with the doll 215 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: Up guys. They were on board, and my dad got sick, 216 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 2: and I just haven't gotten Like it's been a while now, 217 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: I should have gotten back into it. I just kind 218 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: of haven't because it's it's such a it's such a 219 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 2: heavy lift. Sure, I haven't done now yet for the 220 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: same reason. You know, I do those heavy lifting episodes 221 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 2: periodically throughout the year. The Nuke one was a heavy lift. 222 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 2: You know, there were all a number of books involved 223 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 2: in that. Himmler was a heavy lift, a number of 224 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: books involved in that. You know, The Zizians was a 225 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: heavy lift. 226 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: Several comments on Himmler. People want more Himmler. 227 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: People always want more Himmler. That's what everyone was saying 228 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 2: when he died. So like, I'm try, I try to 229 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: do like at least every quarter, like a heavy lift effort, 230 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: you know, longer episode. But there's a lot of those, 231 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 2: So I just there's not like a particular reason other 232 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 2: than I just didn't feel confident tackling that one at 233 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 2: that time. 234 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: Sure, this next one says, what are some unexpected commonalities 235 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: between bastards other than grew up in poverty and had 236 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: abusive parents slash guardians. 237 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wouldn't even say. I mean, those are commonalities 238 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: between a number of bastards from specific time periods, but 239 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 2: they're not commonalities I think because having being poor or 240 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 2: having like a household where you know, you don't have 241 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 2: both parents around is a common thing with bastards. It 242 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 2: just was really common for kids growing up in those 243 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: time periods, Like is it should we see it as 244 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: significant that Hitler was poor and that his dad died 245 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 2: when he was young and his mom died tragically when 246 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 2: he was not a whole lot older, and it really 247 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: fucked him up where it's like, but those were really 248 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 2: normal experiences for just kids in the late eighteen hundreds, 249 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 2: and early nineteen hundred, sickness and disease were a lot 250 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: easier to you know, just wipe out portions of your family, 251 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: and poverty of that sort was a lot more common. 252 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: So I think you're kind of like a misnomer if 253 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 2: you're looking at that as like a and those are 254 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 2: common traits of monsters, because even if we're looking at 255 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 2: the Nazis, it was more common for the big Nazis 256 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 2: to have been comfortable and of like what we might 257 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: call at least like a middle class upbringing than it 258 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: was for them to be as like poor and downtrodden 259 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 2: as Hitler was. He really you know, he had a 260 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 2: very tough childhood. But I would say that's almost the 261 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 2: exception more than it is the rule. One of the 262 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 2: big rules is a kind of I mean, it's almost 263 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: like too much to say, not even like a sense 264 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 2: of megalomania, but a desperation to be somebody, to like 265 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: be someone who matters in your society is like you 266 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: see it, and like this kind of desperate need to 267 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: be attached to whatever group is in power. Right. It's 268 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 2: this yearning to be close to power that I think 269 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: often predicts a lot of like the worst people, like 270 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 2: the folks who will do anything for their career to 271 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 2: like improve the perception of their place in society. That's 272 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: like the biggest warning sign. I think that you see 273 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: that somebody's going to do some really bad shit. 274 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: Let's go to a quicker ad break and then sure 275 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: we'll back more questions back. All right, So, Robert, what 276 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: made you initially want to become a journalist? Was there 277 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: a specific journalist or publication that inspired you to take 278 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: that path? 279 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I remember as a kid during the Yugoslav 280 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: Civil War and the you know, the genocide in Bosnia 281 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: catching some news like live news footage from Sarajevo and 282 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 2: thinking that, like wow, like what a like what a 283 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: what a important, serious job. Maybe I'll do something like 284 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: that as an adult, like the you know, the reporters 285 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: on the ground that we're talking about, like what was 286 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: happening in the city. I remember thinking that, like, that's 287 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: that's like something adults do. That's a serious job for 288 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 2: serious people. And so I definitely like that's the first 289 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 2: time I can remember thinking that like something in line 290 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: with the career I wound up picking out sounded intriguing, 291 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: and then I don't know, like as a an eighteen 292 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: nineteen year old reading trans Metropolitan for the first time. 293 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 2: It's a comic book series with a journalist as a 294 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: protagonist that's set in the in the far future. It's 295 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: very good. It's one of the best illustrated graphic novel 296 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 2: series I think I've ever seen, and I really I 297 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: still revisited every couple of years. That definitely like jazzed 298 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: me up as a as an adolescent, as a young adult. 299 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: And then I was really influenced by Occupy Wall Street. 300 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 2: You know, I was there at Zuccati Park for a 301 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 2: couple of days. I saw little bits of some of 302 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: the regional ones, and I just was never happy with 303 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: the coverage that was going on, either like the mainstream 304 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: media coverage or the stuff that was really celebrated at 305 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: the time, which was like a lot of the people 306 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: who were like within the movement and kind of doing 307 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: movement coverage of what was happening. I mean, that's kind 308 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: of where Tim Poole came out of, right, So I 309 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 2: think maybe I was maybe I was just could see 310 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: that a problem was coming, but I was I was 311 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: not happy with what I was seeing, and I was 312 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 2: I was becoming as I became more, you know, in 313 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: my early twenties, more acquainted with like history and particularly 314 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: like the political history of Latin America and US interactions 315 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 2: in the Middle East. I grew like more and more 316 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: frustrated with the news. With what I still saw is 317 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: this like really important job that I thought was being 318 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 2: like kind of systemically done badly. I took when I 319 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: was in college, I took courses on the Holocaust in 320 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: remembrance that was about how the Holocaust has been covered 321 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: in like movies and fiction, but also how the Holocaust 322 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 2: was reported on at the time and afterwards. A lot 323 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 2: of that stuff, by the way, made it into the 324 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: episodes about how like the liberal media helped fascism get 325 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 2: a foothold, you know, the last time. So really, since 326 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 2: I was in kind of like twenty twenty one, I've 327 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: been I've been thinking about like the shortcomings of our 328 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: of our media and how disastrous those shortcomings are. And 329 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 2: I still kind of fundamentally believe what I did as 330 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 2: a kid, that it's like a really important job reporting 331 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 2: on conflict, especially for serious people, and there's just not 332 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: a lot of them doing it. You know, there are 333 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 2: there are some great reporters obviously much better than me 334 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 2: out there reporting on conflict. But I think the bulk 335 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: of what gets written about war and genocide and conflict 336 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 2: around the world, including you know, in the United States, 337 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 2: protests and the like, is bad. And I guess I 338 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 2: became aware of that at a pretty young age. 339 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: Just made me think about when I was in college. 340 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: I took early on in college, I got approval to 341 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: take a class. I was a freshman. Everyone else was 342 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 1: a senior in the class, but the professor for some 343 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: reason let me take it. And it was a psychology 344 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: of ethics class, and I had to do this report 345 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: that was like most of what I worked on in 346 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: that semester, and it was all about, you know, the 347 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: ethics of the insanity defense for mass shooters. And it 348 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: was right after the Aurora shooting, the movie Theater Batman shooting, 349 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of that really shaped the 350 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: way that I thought about people, which I think impacts 351 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: a lot of our work. So I don't know, it 352 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: just kind of takes like one class. I feel like 353 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: sometimes it's just one one or one assignment really to 354 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: like influence you creatively. 355 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it is, because when I think back on, 356 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 2: like my time in school, I can think, I can 357 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: I can only really remember like one teacher two teachers 358 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 2: by name that I've had in like the whole twelve years. Yeah, 359 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 2: but I remember moments kind of more than one, like 360 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: three or four. But there's a but I do. There 361 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 2: are like some moments, and really for the most part 362 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 2: they were singular moments, like three or four of them 363 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 2: that like were absolutely foundational to who I became, which 364 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 2: is always interesting to me, the degree to which like 365 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 2: both great like school is just a complete blur, like 366 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: I barely remember it, and also I can point out 367 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: like three or four moments, so I'm like, well, that 368 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: changed everything, you know. Yeah, I guess that's how it 369 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 2: is sometimes stuff with how it was for me. 370 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: There's several different questions that basically sum up to the 371 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: same question from folks that they're asking, who's the oldest 372 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: bastard in history? 373 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 2: The oldest bastard, Like I'm assuming they mean like chronologically 374 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 2: like the first bastard Literear. 375 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was asked several different times. 376 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: I mean, we certainly don't know his name right like 377 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 2: there because here's the thing, and this is because I've 378 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 2: talked a lot, you know about like something that gets 379 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 2: that anarchists bring up quite frequently, which is how you 380 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 2: had a lot of in prehistory among these hunter gatherer tribes, 381 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 2: a lot of like extremely egalitarian communities, right particularly compared 382 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 2: to like a lot of the settled cultures that followed them. 383 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 2: Right where there were was significantly more equality between men 384 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: and women, there were significantly flatter hierarchies, you know, a 385 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: lot less power being invested in single individuals. And I 386 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 2: talked about in the Manifested episode about like the that 387 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 2: ekung ritual, like the shaming of the meat, to try 388 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 2: and stop young men who are our hunters from getting 389 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 2: too big an ego because they think that hunting is 390 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 2: all that matters, because it's like the cool sexy job 391 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: to have, right, And if you're focusing on that, you're 392 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 2: ignoring how will most of our calories come from? People? 393 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 2: Like gathering nuts, and a lot of that work it's 394 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 2: done by women. And also people need clothes, people need tools, 395 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 2: all of these things that are just as important as 396 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 2: going out and killing a deer and in fact necessary 397 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 2: precursors that are a lot less sexy. So if you 398 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: let like the young hunter boys get you know, a 399 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: fucking ego about them because like, well, I'm the one 400 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 2: who brought home the meat. Then you're ignoring everyone else's contributions, 401 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: and that makes your whole community weaker, right, And it 402 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: creates the opportunity, at least that one of those young 403 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: men's going to lose their shit and bring terrible, terrible 404 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 2: suffering onto the rest of the community. 405 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: Right. 406 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 2: But I think when we talk about that, we talk 407 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 2: about all of these different sort of like rituals and 408 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 2: ceremonies and rules that different societies adopted to deal with 409 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: the problem of power to ensure that they had flatter hierarchies. 410 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: Right. 411 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: There's a tendency then to kind of forget something, which 412 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 2: is that those were not those were not part of 413 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: those societies because they were more enlightened than modern people, 414 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 2: or at least than the people that followed them. It 415 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 2: was not like, oh, we used to understand how to 416 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 2: be good as a society, right, or as human beings, 417 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 2: Like we used to have better cultures, we used to 418 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 2: be more ethical, we used to treat each other better, 419 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,479 Speaker 2: and we stopped. I think it's more accurate to say, like, well, 420 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 2: all of those different rules and practices are evidence of 421 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: the fact that there's always been a problem with power 422 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 2: in human cultures, and that individual people taking too much 423 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,479 Speaker 2: power for themselves has always been a danger, and our 424 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: ancestors recognize that and have throughout the entire history of 425 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 2: human events and some of culture developed methods of dealing 426 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 2: with it. But ultimately we have to assume all of 427 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: those methods hit points of failure, right, because those cultures 428 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 2: didn't last, right, and they didn't beat out in a 429 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 2: lot of cases the more stratified and hierarchical cultures that 430 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: followed them, and so well, I think it's really valuable 431 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 2: to look at here are solutions different cultures have proposed 432 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: the problem of power. The fact that those they had 433 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 2: to come up with so many different solutions is evidence 434 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 2: to the fact that that problem is kind of universal, right, 435 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: And that hints at a long history of bastards, of 436 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: individual assholes and codras of assholes that have sought in 437 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 2: every kind of society, including ancient hunter gatherer societies, to 438 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 2: try and take much more than their fair share from 439 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 2: everybody else. Right. And so there's certainly a long prehistory 440 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: of nameless bastards out there, and I think it behooves 441 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 2: us to remember that, both because I am one of 442 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 2: those people who says we should be looking at what 443 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: other older, different cultures developed as ways to deal with 444 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: the problem with power, without pretending that they definitely had 445 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 2: it figured out, because again, none of that stuff lasted forever. 446 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: Right right, Let's take another quick break and being back 447 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: with a couple more questions. We're back, Robert. Do you 448 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: listen to music while you write scripts for the pod? 449 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 2: Yeah? Sometimes I used to do more. I used to 450 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 2: listen to more music while I was writing. The last 451 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 2: like year or so, I haven't done it as much. 452 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 2: I don't know. 453 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: Why do you have Like they always ask NBA players like, 454 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: what's the song you listened to before game time? Do 455 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: you have a song you listened to before pod time? 456 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 2: I mean not before recording a podcast. I have like 457 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 2: different bands that I listened to while I'm writing. More 458 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 2: often than other there's a different play. One place I 459 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: used to go a lot is the white Light mixes. 460 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 2: If you just type like white light mixes in, it's 461 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 2: like a set of like hour and a half long 462 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 2: like mixes that are meant for people to like drive to. 463 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 2: I think that was the initial idea is that these 464 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 2: are great for like road trips and stuff and so 465 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: different DJs will do like an hour, hour and a 466 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: half long set that you can kind of zone out 467 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 2: to while you're driving. I found them useful over the 468 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 2: years for writing a lot. And yeah, that's that's I mean, 469 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 2: I listened to I do. I listened to a lot 470 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: of like live bluegrass shows for whatever reason. I find 471 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 2: that helps me concentrate. Last night, as I was working 472 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: on what'll be some of the first episodes of twenty 473 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 2: twenty five, I was listening to Green Sky Bluegrass at 474 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: Red Rocks. I'll listen to you my SKA street Light. Well, 475 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: I'm writing, but again, a lot of the last year, 476 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 2: I haven't really been listening to much while writing, and 477 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: I don't really know why. It comes and goes in waves. 478 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: Have you ever started an episode on someone commonly known 479 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: to be a bastard only to realize you actually agreed 480 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: with them or decided they weren't worthy of being a bastard? 481 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 2: I mean, like the Beau Brummel episodes. I started thinking like, oh, 482 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: this is the guy who like ruined men's fashion and 483 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 2: did a lot of damage to the psychees of men 484 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 2: for generations by locking people into these like because that's 485 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: how he gets portrayed a lot, as he invented the 486 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 2: suit and made men's fashion boring and made men scared 487 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 2: to express themselves through clothing. I don't actually think that's 488 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 2: a fair summary of what bo Brummele did in his life. 489 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: It certainly was not fair to his intent. I think 490 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 2: he was a much more sympathetic person than that. But 491 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 2: I also thought there's a lot of bastardery in that story, 492 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 2: because I mean, just English culture during the period of 493 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 2: time that he was alived was a fucking nightmare. So 494 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: I decided, like, well, this is still good for an episode. 495 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 2: So I have There's been a couple of like times 496 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: not really worth diving into, where I've I've heard like 497 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 2: one story about someone that sucks, like a celebrity or whatever, 498 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 2: and I've looked into like, Okay, can I get laying 499 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 2: an episode or is this just somebody did something shitty 500 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 2: once Katy Perry and. 501 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: We want Yeah, we talked about doing Katy Perry once. 502 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 2: That happened with a Katy Perry episode where I thought 503 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 2: this the whole thing with her in the Nuns. There's 504 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: controversy over this house she was buying. It's not as 505 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 2: bad as it seems. Like. I'm not saying I go 506 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 2: into bat for her as a good person, but I 507 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 2: don't think she's an interesting subject for an episode, sure, right, 508 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 2: for sure? Yeah, it's not. It's less that, like I 509 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: don't think I've ever had it like where Oh no, 510 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 2: this person's a hero, although I do find some things 511 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 2: about bo Brummle to be kind of admirable. But it's 512 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: more that, like, ah, this person just is like a 513 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 2: person who did some shitty stuff, and that's not really 514 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 2: a bastard, right, Like we're we're not declaring someone a 515 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 2: bastard just because they like had flaws and did bad 516 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: We've all done bad things. We're not all interesting to 517 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: hear about for two hours. 518 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, which bastard pastor present would be the best podcast 519 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: guest to cover a different horrible person? 520 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 2: Oh man? I mean honestly, I feel like if I, 521 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,959 Speaker 2: if he was alive, I would make fucking fifty million 522 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 2: dollars doing a podcast with l Ron Hubbard where I 523 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 2: just explained different cults to l Ron Hubbard and he 524 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 2: critiques them like he explains, ah, now this is where 525 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 2: you fucked up, this is where you rent a classic. 526 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 2: It would be the least responsible podcast of all time. 527 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: I would deserve to go to prison for making that 528 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 2: show because it would just create a new generation of 529 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 2: hypercompetent cult leaders. But it would be super interesting just 530 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 2: getting LRH on the record critiquing other cult leaders because 531 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: they're all worse than him. He was the best at that. 532 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, guys, we'll be back on Thursday to 533 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: answer more of your questions. Any final thoughts. 534 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 2: Robert, Uh, you know, in the new year, fuck it, 535 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 2: I don't know whatever it is to you, fuck it. 536 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: Cool Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. 537 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia 538 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 539 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the 540 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday 541 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash 542 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: at Behind the Bastards.