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Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: This week on the podcast What Can I Say, Secretary

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Speaker 1: of Defense Ash Carter under Barack Obama was in the

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Speaker 1: studio for over an hour and we talked about everything

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Speaker 1: from Iran to North Korea, to China to Russia, to

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Speaker 1: the procurement process, to what we do right with the

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Speaker 1: military and what we get wrong and what we areas

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Speaker 1: we really need to improve. This was a tour to

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Speaker 1: force conversation from somebody who is not only brilliant. He's

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Speaker 1: a Rhodes scholar, a PhD in in physics UM, but

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Speaker 1: a historian who focuses on military history in the medieval times,

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Speaker 1: and that has colored how he looks at at the world,

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Speaker 1: how he looks at the role of government. I could

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Speaker 1: talk about him for hours, but instead I'm just gonna say,

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Speaker 1: with no further ado, my conversation with former Secretary of

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Speaker 1: Defense Ash Carter. This is Masters in Business with Barry

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Speaker 1: Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. My extra special guest this week

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Speaker 1: is Ash Carter. He is the former Secretary of Defense

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Speaker 1: under President Barack Obama. He is the five time winner

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Speaker 1: of the Department of Defense Distinguished Public Service Medal that

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Speaker 1: is the highest award to a civilian from the Pentagon.

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Speaker 1: He is a Rhodes Scholar with a PhD in theoretical

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Speaker 1: physics from Oxford, the author of almost a dozen books,

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Speaker 1: most recently Inside the Five Sided Box Lessons from a

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Speaker 1: Lifetime of leadership in the Pentagon. Ash Carter, Welcome to Bloomberg,

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Speaker 1: to be with you, Mary. So let's um. Let's start

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Speaker 1: with your rather unusual academic career. You're a double major

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Speaker 1: physics and medieval history. How do you end up with that?

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Speaker 1: As a double major? Turned out to be useful. More

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Speaker 1: on that in a moment, But at the time it

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Speaker 1: was just a right brain left brain thing. I I

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Speaker 1: I was fascinated by history, and particularly by medieval history,

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Speaker 1: because if you think about it, the Middle Ages was

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Speaker 1: a thousand years long. So if you call yourself an evilist,

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Speaker 1: you've just gotten yourself a whole millennium of territory. And

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Speaker 1: I like the languages Latin, Greek, French, German UH to speak.

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Speaker 1: And it was the time when the church UH developed,

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Speaker 1: when the university developed, when the English common law developed,

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Speaker 1: when the nation state developed, So a lot of things

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Speaker 1: we lived with today and I found later in life

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Speaker 1: as I started working in the Pentagon in one and

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Speaker 1: all the way until I left and in nineteen that

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Speaker 1: that was useful training physics, history, useful training for the

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Speaker 1: didn't of course. The joke is that I had the

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Speaker 1: perfect of My job was the perfect combination of medieval

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Speaker 1: thinking and physics thinking. Physics was totally other side of

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Speaker 1: the brain thing. It's clean, logical, uh, And I liked that.

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Speaker 1: And then I had to make a choice for further

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Speaker 1: training in the beginning of my career, and that was

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Speaker 1: that was for physics. And then I got into the

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Speaker 1: whole defense business by by accident. Um. But how did

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Speaker 1: that come about? Well, it was part It was remember

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Speaker 1: the people who taught me physics, and where the seniors

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Speaker 1: in the field that I was starting out in, which

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Speaker 1: was elementary particle physics and big accelerators at Fermi Lab

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Speaker 1: and Brookhaven outside of New York here and so forth.

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Speaker 1: I worked at those big laboratories. Those guys were all

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Speaker 1: the Manhattan Project generation, and they had in their veins

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Speaker 1: the idea first of all that when you that that

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Speaker 1: you you should have relationship with the government, that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that you They always did what you wanted to do,

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Speaker 1: but it was natural to try to help out your country. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And second that with respect to technology and disruptive technology,

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Speaker 1: which the nuclear weapons certainly was that the people who

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Speaker 1: built it had some responsibility too into essentially control the

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Speaker 1: technology so that we got the good out of it,

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Speaker 1: which was ending the war with Japan, winning the war

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Speaker 1: with Japan, and keeping the piece for fifty years with

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union without blowing ourselves up. So they they

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Speaker 1: taught me that we had something some responsibility. So one day,

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Speaker 1: two of those seniors said to me, a guy who

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Speaker 1: was involved in satellite reconnaissance, another guy who designed the

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Speaker 1: first thermonuclear weapon said to me, Ashal, wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: let me let me interrupt you right here, because you

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Speaker 1: can't just mention that and go by. You referred to

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Speaker 1: the Manhattan Project. Are you talking about people like Edward Teller?

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Speaker 1: And I traveled once with to Europe with Edward Teller.

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Speaker 1: The too. Particularly the particular people I was speaking of

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Speaker 1: was Richard Garwin with Edward Teller, but it was really

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Speaker 1: Garwin's design designed the I said, the first thermonuclear bomb,

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Speaker 1: that is one that that combined fishing and fusion, and

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Speaker 1: it blew up an island in the Pacific Ocean. It

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Speaker 1: was very successful and much more powerful than the original

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Speaker 1: thousand times more powerful UM. And the other guy was

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Speaker 1: the person who was very instrumental in putting the first

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Speaker 1: UM essentially cell phone type cameras, digital cameras onto our

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Speaker 1: spy satellites, be our old spy satellites in the old

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Speaker 1: days would take pictures on film, big roles of film,

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Speaker 1: and then when the film was all exposed, they would

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Speaker 1: separate it from the satellite, put a little rocket on it.

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Speaker 1: The rocket would slow it down, it would fall down

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Speaker 1: to Earth. Deploy a parachute and we'd fly an airplane

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Speaker 1: next to the parachute with a hook on it, and

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Speaker 1: the hook would grab the parachute reel in the film.

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Speaker 1: We'd fly it to what in those days, the CIA

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Speaker 1: did all of that interpretation right outside of washing Anacostia washing,

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Speaker 1: and they'd fly it, they develop it, and they'd count

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Speaker 1: how many Russian missiles and so forth. So that was

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Speaker 1: the guy who was instrumental in turning that film system

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Speaker 1: into a digital system. So they were the two, that's

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Speaker 1: the two specific people rich pretty pretty big technologies. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and those happened to be the two who said to me,

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Speaker 1: once you go to Washington for just one year turned

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Speaker 1: out to be thirty seven, just one year and work

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Speaker 1: on a problem that was a big deal at that time, Barry,

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Speaker 1: which was a Cold War problem of where what to

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Speaker 1: do with the m X missile. I recall that that

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Speaker 1: was under Reagan trying to figure out how we could

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Speaker 1: hide and shuttle all these missiles underground to hide them

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Speaker 1: from Russian satellite couldn't target them, right, So I think

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Speaker 1: the original plan, and I don't remember how much of

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Speaker 1: this is from your book, and how much of this

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Speaker 1: is male memory, that undred silos when a shuttle five

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Speaker 1: hundred missiles around, pretty impossible plan. It was certainly very

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Speaker 1: unpopular because it would have paved over a big part

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Speaker 1: of the Great Basin area of the southwestern United States.

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Speaker 1: It was actually the Carter administration's plan. Reagan looked at

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Speaker 1: it and said that looks said, it looked like a

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Speaker 1: Rube Goldberg thing, right, So that was to him a

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Speaker 1: pretty ugly baby, this idea of of digging all these

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Speaker 1: holes and then hiding missiles in him so he began

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Speaker 1: this is all under um the concept of being able

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Speaker 1: to survive a first strike in order to make sure

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Speaker 1: our mutual is your destruction was in place exactly, because

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Speaker 1: if we took the m X missile and we put

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Speaker 1: them out where the Soviets could hit them, then in

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Speaker 1: a crisis, they'd say, well, our only way of surviving

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Speaker 1: is to go for and that would be incentive for

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Speaker 1: them to go first. And we seeing them thinking that way,

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Speaker 1: I would say, well, we better get we better launched

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Speaker 1: these before they destroy them. So one or the other

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Speaker 1: of us is gonna start a war under those circumstances.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to avoid that that situation. So anyway, that

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Speaker 1: was the projects all in the past now and that

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Speaker 1: was effectively your first book. Yes, yes, after I did this,

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Speaker 1: I wrote it which is essentially a technical book on

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Speaker 1: that subject. Um. But uh, two things happened to me there, Barry,

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Speaker 1: which I think is important to anybody who's choosing a

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Speaker 1: career or at a crossroads in their career. Um. I

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Speaker 1: found that in these Washington conversations I had something to

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Speaker 1: offer that nobody else in the room had. Namely, I

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Speaker 1: understood how it all worked technically, and the decisions were

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Speaker 1: very consequential. So for a young person to be able

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Speaker 1: to make a contribution, to feel like they're able to

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Speaker 1: make actually a contribution, not just watch, but make a contribution,

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Speaker 1: and that the issues they're dealing with really matter. That's

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Speaker 1: a that's a wonderful you know. It's a hugely inspiring creation.

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Speaker 1: And so that's what got me caught the bug of

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Speaker 1: of of defense. And I've been devoted to you know,

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Speaker 1: defending our country and making a better world for our

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Speaker 1: children ever since. But it could have gone a different way,

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Speaker 1: but for those two people who who inspire me. It's

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Speaker 1: a good lesson to all of us, to to you.

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Speaker 1: And now I teach people at a university. That's my

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Speaker 1: way of continuing to contribute. But you give them a

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Speaker 1: little nudge, and UH, in the direction of public purpose

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Speaker 1: and public spirits a good thing. Let's talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about UH, the Iraq War, and you go into

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Speaker 1: quite a bit of detail in the new book inside

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Speaker 1: the Five Sided Box Lessons from a lifetime of leadership

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Speaker 1: in the Pentagon. What made the Iraq War such a

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Speaker 1: uni nique fight relative to previous US military history. Well,

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Speaker 1: from a managerial point of view, which the point of

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Speaker 1: view that the book takes, UH, it was a cantra

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Speaker 1: insurgency war rather than a war of one country with

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Speaker 1: another asymmetrical warfare is that we had. Yes. So the

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Speaker 1: first thing is we had to learn that by by

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Speaker 1: the way, I should back up a little bit Bari

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Speaker 1: and say, of course, and the invasion of Iraq in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and three didn't turn out very well. History

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Speaker 1: says I have to say I didn't have the wisdom

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Speaker 1: to oppose that at the time. I believe many people

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Speaker 1: did not. I I'm I count myself among them, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not proud of that, but I can't say I

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Speaker 1: had better wisdom than anyone else. Anyway, we found ourselves

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Speaker 1: in in Iraq. And of course when I became first

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Speaker 1: the number three in the department, and the number two,

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Speaker 1: then the number one, all during all that time we

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Speaker 1: were still fighting in Iraq. And here's what we got

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Speaker 1: out of it. That um was in a way useful

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Speaker 1: to today's very different strategic situation. Uh. We learned to

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Speaker 1: stop working in the old Cold War moode, which was

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Speaker 1: that is was very superpower superpower versus super power. Moreover,

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union was this slow, lumbering, very predictable thing,

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Speaker 1: and so you could have many year programs where you

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Speaker 1: slowly built the perfect thing. When you're at war and

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Speaker 1: people are getting killed or or kids are coming back

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Speaker 1: with no legs, and my wife and I are at

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Speaker 1: the hospitals every weekend talk, you know, meeting with them

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Speaker 1: and talking talking to them there, then you're working day

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Speaker 1: by day. That's a very different pace and it's much

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Speaker 1: better suited to today's competitive world because now as we

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Speaker 1: turned back to Chi Russia as we much do we have,

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Speaker 1: if we did that and tried to compete with them

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Speaker 1: today in the old mood, that wouldn't work because people

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Speaker 1: are moving faster today, technologies moving factor. So I again,

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Speaker 1: nobody likes to be in a war for that long.

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Speaker 1: Nobody likes to be dealing with issues like uh amputations

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Speaker 1: and prostheses pts, all the things we had to learn.

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Speaker 1: But we also learned something about agility in the course

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Speaker 1: of Iraq and then of course Afghanistan as well. And

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Speaker 1: I was all in when I was in the defense department.

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Speaker 1: I know some people don't agree with those wars, and

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Speaker 1: we can talk about that later, but when you're there

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Speaker 1: and you're responsible for them, UH, that was my highest priority.

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Speaker 1: Every day I went to bed thinking about him. I

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Speaker 1: woke up thinking about him either there's no choice. So

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Speaker 1: let's let's talk a little bit about some of the

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Speaker 1: adaptations that some took place fast and took place slow. Um.

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Speaker 1: One of the things you write about ore are the

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Speaker 1: I E d S And two really interesting issues come

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Speaker 1: up in that. The first is the concept of drones

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Speaker 1: versus blimps. That some people on the ground wanted drones,

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Speaker 1: which really are good at flying in circles for short

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Speaker 1: periods of time, but you wanted full There aren't a

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Speaker 1: lot of roads in Iraq. You wanted full coverage of

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Speaker 1: where insurgents are bringing I E d S that could

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Speaker 1: hurt troops. How did that process go from let's get

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Speaker 1: these expensive drones that will take two years to get

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Speaker 1: into place to no, No, we could hang blimps. It

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Speaker 1: will take us a really short period of time and

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Speaker 1: have eyes in the sky on everything. And it began

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Speaker 1: one morning when Bob Gates was secretary. He was the

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Speaker 1: number one. I was the number three at that time,

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Speaker 1: and on the and we were having a video teleconference,

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Speaker 1: secure video teleconference with Cobble, and up on the screen

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Speaker 1: was Stan McCrystal, who is our commander there. And Stan

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Speaker 1: says to Bob that he needs he has only fifteen

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Speaker 1: percent of the drone coverage he needs. And Bob Gates

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Speaker 1: looks at me with that. I was his top supply

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Speaker 1: weapons buyer, and he said with that, what are you

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Speaker 1: going to do about that? Ash look? And I thought

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Speaker 1: to myself, how on earth am I going to get

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Speaker 1: seven times a number of drones in a very short,

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Speaker 1: very short period of time. So I get on the

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Speaker 1: phone and I talked to stands intelligence head at that time,

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Speaker 1: who was General Mike Flynn. This is prey before those

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Speaker 1: whole issues with his politics right right and uh, And

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Speaker 1: he had a good reputation, he did, and I enjoyed

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Speaker 1: working with I don't know what happened later I I

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Speaker 1: lost touch with him. But anyway, when I began, I said, jeez,

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Speaker 1: what do you what do you need all that coverage

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Speaker 1: for that drone coverage? And it turned out that it

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Speaker 1: wasn't to get the kind of film that only a

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Speaker 1: drone could get. Only a drone can fly down a

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Speaker 1: long highway. Um, but they wanted persistent coverage over one

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Speaker 1: base or one town. That's what they really needed. Satellites

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Speaker 1: are going by, satellites zipping by, and their overall Australia

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Speaker 1: when you really need them, drones you can do, but

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Speaker 1: you have to They're much more expensive, and you have

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Speaker 1: to fly them around in circles, and you need to

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Speaker 1: pilot even if they were back in California as it

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Speaker 1: turns out. But yeah, a well trained pilot and a

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Speaker 1: crew and somebody to make all the decisions very different weight.

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Speaker 1: We came up with the idea of just putting a

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Speaker 1: balloon up, and you put a helium filled balloon over

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Speaker 1: the base. It's got a camera on it and the

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Speaker 1: feed goes right down to the captain who is commanding

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Speaker 1: that little outpost. And the reassurance that those guys had

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Speaker 1: that when they went out on patrol they knew this

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Speaker 1: is full video infrared exactly. Why couldn't just the kind

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Speaker 1: of cameras that are on the the helicopters that fly

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Speaker 1: on looking looking at car accident and traffic patterns that guy, So,

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Speaker 1: why couldn't those just get shot out of the sky.

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Speaker 1: It's they tried. And here's first of all, the pressure

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Speaker 1: of the helium inside is not very much. It's not

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Speaker 1: gonna pop, and so every once in a while you

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Speaker 1: winch it down and sell up the holes. That's it's

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Speaker 1: it's but the enemy, the bad guys would when it

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Speaker 1: went up, not knowing that, take pot shots at it.

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Speaker 1: We began to put UM microphones on that could I Yes, triangulate,

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Speaker 1: and so if you took a shot at one of

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Speaker 1: our balloons, a mortar shell fell on you a few

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Speaker 1: seconds later. So the other I D question I have

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Speaker 1: is in the beginning of the war, and you mentioned

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Speaker 1: in your Troops coming home, lots of the humvees were

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Speaker 1: really very lightly armored. And maybe this is my memory,

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Speaker 1: but the recollection of how long it took to get

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Speaker 1: the humvees up armored and protect seemed like it took

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Speaker 1: a long time. And then later on the anti I E. D.

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Speaker 1: There's all sorts of interesting technologies to detonate these things

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Speaker 1: from a distance. Why did that seem to take so long?

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Speaker 1: Is the process to UM identify what you want, order

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Speaker 1: it and get it delivered? Is it really that long?

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Speaker 1: Part of it was the bureaucracy was still working on

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Speaker 1: that Cold War lumbering enemy mode where we'll deliver the

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Speaker 1: perfect thing in five years. Even in the middle of

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Speaker 1: a hot wall. You'd be amazed. I would call people

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Speaker 1: up when I was in the so called acquisitions are

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Speaker 1: And I would say, do you realize that on your

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Speaker 1: desk is a contract that you're supposed to sign or audit,

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Speaker 1: and that is I need that tomorrow. And it would

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Speaker 1: be in the stack of this bureaucrat stack of papers.

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Speaker 1: And as soon as they became aware that this was

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Speaker 1: a matter of life or death for literally, yeah, they'd

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Speaker 1: pull it out of the stack. But you'd be amazed

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Speaker 1: at how much of that I had to do every

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Speaker 1: single day, even when I was Secretary of Defense, to

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Speaker 1: push the system. But but we we did. At let's

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Speaker 1: take the M wrap which is the vehicle you're talking about. Um.

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Speaker 1: When M wraps first started to be fielded, there was

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Speaker 1: another attitude which was, hey, look, this war is going

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Speaker 1: to be over in a while. I only buy something

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Speaker 1: that's going to be good for you know, the army.

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Speaker 1: You'll be around for a long time. We need to

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Speaker 1: be thinking about what we're gonna want in twenty and

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Speaker 1: thirty years and and and I that's not hot war

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Speaker 1: thinking that's that's exactly right. There was a lot of that,

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Speaker 1: conscious and unconscious. And you mentioned the two different types

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Speaker 1: of dogs in the book. You mentioned there are bomb

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Speaker 1: sniffer dogs, and then they're attack dogs. It seemed that

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Speaker 1: there weren't enough breeders to get enough dogs quickly, and

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Speaker 1: you guys went out and said, let's go global and

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Speaker 1: find these dogs that you guys could get very very quickly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it turns out that the guy who was usually biding

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Speaker 1: fighter aircraft and aircraft carriers and satellites and so were,

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Speaker 1: namely me and drones and balloons and so forth, ended

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Speaker 1: up learning how to buy dogs. And I learned a lot.

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Speaker 1: And you're right, in fact, there's more than one kind

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Speaker 1: of sniffer dog. There are some sniffer dogs on leash

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Speaker 1: and off leash, and some that work better and confined areas,

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Speaker 1: and some that are comfortable with open areas. And different

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Speaker 1: breeds have different predilections, and so you learned that, and

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Speaker 1: then you had to source them, as you said, And

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Speaker 1: the United States has kennels, but there weren't enough kennels

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Speaker 1: to supply, so we did globally source dogs. Thousands of

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Speaker 1: dogs with great, great, great and became and this was

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Speaker 1: a good side of outside of this, but became really

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Speaker 1: good friends of the troops. They loved them, as people

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Speaker 1: tend too, were able to take them back home with

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Speaker 1: them at the individually not enough, but many sad The

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Speaker 1: sad cases were when the dog died, which happened um,

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Speaker 1: but especially if dogs were wounded or even if they

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Speaker 1: were in the vicinity of an i e. Ed. It

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Speaker 1: was impossible to use them anymore. That they become very

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Speaker 1: nervous at that point and all their training would go

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Speaker 1: out the windows. Either have to sadly put them to

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Speaker 1: sleep or or take them and try to find a

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Speaker 1: home for them in the United States. Well, they they

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Speaker 1: certainly served quite well. And and I think there's a

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Speaker 1: long history of Canaan corpse in the military, isn't there? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean they're their newses. I went to dark are

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Speaker 1: high tech research arm looking for better news? Is electronic

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Speaker 1: newses than the dogs knows and the people who know

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Speaker 1: about electronics knows is say, don't they're not years and

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Speaker 1: years years away. You got a ward a fight now,

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Speaker 1: just gotten by yourself a dog. Amazing. You describe working

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Speaker 1: in d C as quote being a Christian in the colosseum.

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Speaker 1: You never know when they're going to release the lions,

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Speaker 1: and have you torn apart for the amusement of onlookers.

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Speaker 1: How accurate is that description? And and how frustrating is

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Speaker 1: it to work in a town like d C. Well,

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Speaker 1: I got used to it after a while. I was

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Speaker 1: there for thirty seven years on and off and associated

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Speaker 1: with the department uninterruptedly since. So they never really released

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Speaker 1: the lions that you didn't know. I went through four

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Speaker 1: Senate confirmations, which was really what I was talking about

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Speaker 1: in that particular passage. And that's a time of great

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Speaker 1: vulnerability in Washington, because anybody who doesn't like you can

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Speaker 1: take a shot at you that or try to persuade

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Speaker 1: some senator to put a hold on you. Came up

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Speaker 1: unanimously for a Secretary of Defense. That's not many people.

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Speaker 1: That's actually I think there were two or three votes,

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Speaker 1: not personal about me, but uh, nobody voted against you.

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Speaker 1: Either they abstained or they voted for you. Not a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in d C get that sort of

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Speaker 1: love from the U. S. Senate. No, but there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I tried to earn it the old fashioned way. I

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Speaker 1: kept my nose clean, and all those years I never

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Speaker 1: had was investigated or or or anything. I never that's

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Speaker 1: the normal course these days. That seems to be a

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Speaker 1: little unusual, but typically people working in the defense department

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Speaker 1: tend to put their head down to their job and

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Speaker 1: keep their nose yes, and conduct is really important. The

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Speaker 1: in the profession of arms, honor and trust matter a lot.

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Speaker 1: And if you can't trust people in small things, how

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Speaker 1: can you trust them in big things like war. So

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Speaker 1: for us it was a big deal. And when you're

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Speaker 1: at the top up, you have to show example, and

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Speaker 1: so it was. I always watched over my conduct and

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Speaker 1: comportment and tried to make an example. Me give me.

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Speaker 1: Let me give you a particular instance of that I

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Speaker 1: described in the book uh barry Um. When I and

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Speaker 1: many many many times, was in the Iraq and Afghanistan

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Speaker 1: and it's hot as hundred twenty degrees. If I was

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Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense, you'd see the sea foreign leaders. You

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Speaker 1: talk especially to our commanders and what we're doing, and

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Speaker 1: and give them the direction that they needed. And then

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Speaker 1: I'd meet with hundreds and hundreds of troops and you'd

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Speaker 1: shake their hands and so forth. And I'd wear my

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Speaker 1: suit out in the desert degrees, sweating like a wheel

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Speaker 1: of cheese out there, and my staff would say, hey, sir,

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Speaker 1: you know you can take your jacket off and the

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Speaker 1: troops would say, hey, it's just us, Secretary, you can relax.

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Speaker 1: And I always kept my suit on. And here's why,

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Speaker 1: because every time I shook one of those soldiers hands,

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Speaker 1: we had a photographer take a picture. That picture would

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Speaker 1: be sent home to mom. Mom would frame it and

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Speaker 1: put it by her bedside or on the mantel. And

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Speaker 1: I wanted to look the part. I wanted to look

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Speaker 1: like you still, well, I do have my suit on,

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Speaker 1: my flag and I wear and I would wear the

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Speaker 1: same thing out there because I thought it was important

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Speaker 1: that their mother understand that I was the coursie. She

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Speaker 1: didn't know me, she doesn't know the secret. She didn't care.

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Speaker 1: She cares about her son, but I don't want to

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Speaker 1: look like the guy who deserves to be sending her

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Speaker 1: son to war. That was important to me, And that's

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Speaker 1: a small example of how you behavior. Comportment, conduct matter

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Speaker 1: a lot. I think they matter not only in the

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Speaker 1: largest organization in the world, de Pentagon, but in any

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Speaker 1: kind of organization. And I obviously um uh dismayed uh

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Speaker 1: times these days about conduct, I see um and I

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Speaker 1: held people to a higher standard, and I fired people

415
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Speaker 1: for things that you see today. We fired people for Lyne,

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Speaker 1: for having sex with subordinates. All of these things were

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Speaker 1: unfortunately happened um, but there was no doubt I was

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Speaker 1: harsh on people, but they were even harsher on subordinates.

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Speaker 1: Our rules are very strict about that, and um our

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Speaker 1: ethos is one of their conduct. Uh is a sign

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Speaker 1: of character, and character is an increasing an aspect of leadership.

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Speaker 1: And you can't give somebody leadership over troops if they

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Speaker 1: don't have conduct and enough character. So let me ask you,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw two curve balls at you. The first

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Speaker 1: is we ask our troops to go in harm's way

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Speaker 1: and we make extraordinary demands of them and they come

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Speaker 1: back home. Not directly under the Pentagon, but under the

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Speaker 1: v A. They haven't been getting really terrific treatment. We

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Speaker 1: have a number of veterans in my office and I've

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Speaker 1: heard some pretty horrifying tales. What's going on in the

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Speaker 1: v A and what can we do to give our

432
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: veterans the sort of care they deserve. Well, the v

433
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: A is a very very complicated bureaucracy. It's separate from

434
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: the defense, and in most countries they would be managed together,

435
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: but they're managed separately. That's interesting. Yeah, and it would

436
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: be part of the defense budget. But it's not part

437
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: of the defense budget in this country. But it's a

438
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 1: separate cabinet department. Should it be should it be part

439
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: of the Pentagon and the defense budget. It may be

440
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: that if we could start over again, that would have

441
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: been a better way to manage things. But now I

442
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: think mushing to organizations. Remember we tried that in the

443
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: Department of Homeland Security and did it well. It took

444
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: ten years or so began before it began to show

445
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 1: any results. Um. But any rate, so the v A

446
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: has a difficult job of taking care of what is

447
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: largely a geriatric medical population. Whereas our medical system which

448
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 1: is huge in the defense departments, the largest in the country.

449
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: And so you run the largest medical center in the

450
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: medical care system in the country if you have the

451
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: Secretary Defense. Um, but it's it's has a lot of

452
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 1: pediatric work, right because our young people have children, so

453
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: they're completely different populations. Um. What we were doing a

454
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 1: bad job of I discovered when i UH started to

455
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 1: run the place was the transition from a soldier to

456
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: a veteran, which is a very challenging transition. It is

457
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 1: because remember some of these people have never done anything

458
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: else but be in the military. Some of them are

459
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: kids that came out of high school, went in for

460
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: a few years. They've never had a civilian job. I

461
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: discovered that our separation program, what we did with soldiers

462
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: and sailor's aerband and marines before they left service, was

463
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: essentially to teach them how to get on welfare. Really yes,

464
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: And of course that was revolted by that it's not

465
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: good for them and it's not good for the public

466
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: that's paying for these things. So we designed a new

467
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: transition program that that had three tracks. One was to

468
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: get a job track if you never had to get

469
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: a job. Let's tell you how to make a resume.

470
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: Let's tell you how to get on some of these

471
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: social media where you can describe what you're good at.

472
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: Let's tell you how you can describe your in civilian terms,

473
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: the skills you've got as a military person. Second track

474
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: was entrepreneurship, like how do you run a McDonald's franchise?

475
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: And the third was continue in education if you want

476
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: to get on the g I bills some further education.

477
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: So we turned it from a uh, your life in

478
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: the future is one of pendency upon the v A

479
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: and getting benefits to you too. You've got a life ahead,

480
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: let us help you prepare. And of course they're still

481
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: qualified to get the benefits, they still just still preserve them.

482
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: But to just to teach them right away to get

483
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: that it's all about social safety net when they get out,

484
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: that's no way to treat someone. I will tell you

485
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: from my personal experience, the veterans who work in my

486
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: office are our secret weapons Logistics Trading CFO. It's amazing.

487
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: And every time we look to hire somebody, we try

488
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: and say, is this person that a veteran can feel that? Verry,

489
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: you know that's new and I always really, well, it is.

490
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: It's only in the last ten years because I started

491
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: working on veterans and commitment when I was the under

492
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: secretary the number three job back in two thousand and nine,

493
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: and employers would say, okay, Ash, we promised to hire

494
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: five thousand veterans a big company, and they'd put it

495
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: on their TV ads and everything, and they acted as

496
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: though they were doing us a favor. By now most

497
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: employers have the attitude you just described. We'll train the smart, honorable. Yeah. Absolutely,

498
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: And go back even further to the Vietnam era. And

499
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: if I don't know, and I don't know what I

500
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: would have done as secretary, I couldn't have stood to

501
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: see our people treated that way. I mean, now you

502
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: go to the airport and they're boarded first on the

503
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: plane and all, you know, and that kind of thing.

504
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: Some of that is making up for the mistakes of

505
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 1: the Vietnam Era. Yeah, one of the the most moving

506
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: things you can do as a current Secretary of Defense

507
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: is to talk to Vietnam era veterans. And a line

508
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: that not only I use, but others including the President used,

509
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: uh uh was just in case nobody said this to

510
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: you when you came home the first time, welcome home

511
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: and you their tears in the eyes. I could imagine

512
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: some of these guys because of the way they were treated.

513
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: That would have broken my heart at the time. Fortunately,

514
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: I live in need live in that year. I live

515
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: in near where most people have any attitude that you do,

516
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: which is these guys deserve a good job. I think

517
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: we learn a little bit from our our societal mistakes

518
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: in the past that that war was problematic. But then

519
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: you know people who were um and that was not

520
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: a voluntary army. That was a people were drafted. They

521
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: should not have been treated the way they they were

522
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: when they came back, But that was a very different time.

523
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: Let me throw the other curve ball at you, which

524
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: is what you just brought up some of the issues

525
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: we're hearing about people dealing with within the military, within

526
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: the um Department of State, just generally within the government,

527
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: moving away from the concept of honor and responsibility and truthfulness.

528
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: What does this say about us as a country? How

529
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: have we gotten so far off track? Well? I I

530
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: think that in part it is a reflection of the

531
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: attitude that some Americans have had that the government is

532
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: a thing apart from them. And I've obviously been in

533
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: an out of government my whole life. I don't have

534
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: that feeling. But I can well imagine if I were

535
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: someone who've been outside of the government, that that that

536
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: idea that that's a thing apart gaining ground in my mind.

537
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: But to me, the government is just us. It is

538
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: the way we do things that we have that have

539
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: to be done that can't be done by individuals or

540
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: by companies. Who's going to build the roads, who's going

541
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: to educate people, who's going to fight for us and

542
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: win against enemies unless we do it all together. Now,

543
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: I learned that by association with the Defense Department, which

544
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: which most Americans really understand. Okay, that's a part of

545
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: the government I really, I really get. But the other parts,

546
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: the regulatory parts and all that. There came to be

547
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: an attitude that we took all the good for granted

548
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: and we picked at what was bad. And there's plenty

549
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: of things that are bad, and I think the government

550
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: ought to be uh as high quality as it can be.

551
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: But there was a little bit of that in our society.

552
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: And then some of the people who are in government

553
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: today seem to be looking at it as something to

554
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: a pillage at last, rather than a sacred trust. That's

555
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: hard for me to relate to, let alone condone um,

556
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: but I think it's enabled in part by people taking

557
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: for granted what the government does for them, and also

558
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: by government not living up to public expectations. So both

559
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: sides of the equation need to change their attitude, because

560
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 1: we do need a competent government. It's a competitive world,

561
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: it's a dangerous world, and um, we need things, uh

562
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: that only government can do. Quite quite interesting. So let's

563
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: talk about some of the interesting things you go over

564
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: in the book. Um, I'm fascinated by the future of warfare.

565
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: Is it just gonna be drones and robots? What sort

566
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 1: of battles are we going to be fighting? And how

567
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: is the world going to look different from a military

568
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: perspective than it does today. So let's take a few

569
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: of the pieces. Um. I ran the F thirty five

570
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: Joint Strike fighter program, started the new B twenty one

571
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: stealth bomber, and I think those are once you get

572
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: them under managerial control, important things. But Barry, they're the

573
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: last man fighter and man bomber will ever build last

574
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,959
Speaker 1: man A That's what I believe. I think that's the last.

575
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: What about ships? And we're gonna still have man take

576
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 1: the aircraft carry? Now, aircraft carriers are getting harder and

577
00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: harder to defend against countries like China and Russia. And

578
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 1: people ask me, is the aircraft carrier going to go away?

579
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: And I say no, because an aircraft carry is good

580
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: for a different kind of circumstance. An aircraft carry is

581
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: still good with the with respect to Afghanistan. The counter

582
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: isis campaign environments in which nobody's going to sink the

583
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: ship they provide America a floating air base, and that's

584
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: an important thing. But I don't think we'll be trying

585
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: to use them against China and Russia decades from now. Soldiers.

586
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: You just said, are robots gonna be soldiers? I think

587
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: what will happen first is that in an infantry squad

588
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 1: there'll be one or two robots that carry Oh, all

589
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: the batteries get way down soldiers today they have so

590
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 1: much electronics and they have spare batteries for everything that

591
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: carry the electronics. And also that if they're let's say,

592
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: clearing a house, is the first thing through the door

593
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: of the house. You see a little of that already

594
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: because what what disarms? And I e ed now a

595
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: little screaded small, But I worked. I worked on them

596
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: because we had people walking out in suits with a

597
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: pair of wire cutters, very dangerous thing to be doing,

598
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: and so why not have a little robot to so

599
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: you see now, I think that they'll be inch by

600
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: inch more and more of that taking away. Some of

601
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: them were mechanical and more dangerous jobs. But they'll still

602
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: be a squad commander, I think, making the decisions about

603
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: fire and maneuver and when to do things and when

604
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: not to do things. One thing that's not going to

605
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: go away. We're talking about things that are going to

606
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: go away, and they're not going to go away are

607
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons. And let's think about that a little bit,

608
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: because that is something that because of the wars in

609
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: Iraq and Afghanistan and the fact that many people, not

610
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: myself among them, but many people recognized too late that

611
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: China and Russia we're not turning out the way everybody

612
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: had hoped in the nine nineties. We hope they were

613
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: going to turn out okay. They didn't turn out okay.

614
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: And for both those reasons, we uh stopped improving or

615
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: really just keeping up our own nuclear arsenal. And in

616
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 1: the meantime, they kept building, kept building, kept building. These

617
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: things aren't going anywhere. I don't think we need new types.

618
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: I don't. Nuclear weapons are just brutally simple a bomb

619
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: on a rocket, right, Um, But I think we need

620
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: them to defend ourselves. And basically the only way you

621
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: can defend yourself against nuclear weapons is through deterrence, and um,

622
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: we haven't built any for twenty five years. I think

623
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: I am a strong supporter of recapitalizing our nuclear weapons arsenal,

624
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: and anybody who thinks that's going to start at arms race.

625
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: I would say, well, you don't have twenty five years

626
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: of history on your side, because we haven't done anything

627
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 1: for the last twenty five years, and they've been racing anyway,

628
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,959
Speaker 1: so we still be the cause of them. So let's

629
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 1: stick with nukes and talk about Korea. You were involved

630
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: as a very junior person back in with the first

631
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: round of Korea trying to get a nuclear weapon. Why

632
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: this is hindsight bias, obviously, but why don't we just

633
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: stop them back then, years ago before they had the

634
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 1: chance to retaliate. Well, it's interesting, I want I spent

635
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: about half the year as an assistant secretary of Defense,

636
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: meaning where is that in the hierarchy, that's like the

637
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 1: third layer down? Okay, working on UH strike plan against

638
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: the North Korean reactor, which is all. They had the

639
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: reactor at a place called Young Beyond, and it had

640
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: the fuel rods that had plutonium in them, and the

641
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: they had finished their fuelling cycle, and the North Koreans

642
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: could if they wanted to take those fuel rods out,

643
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: extract the plutonium, and they had enough in there to

644
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: make one bomb. We thought that it was a cause

645
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: of war, and so I built that plan to destroy

646
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: that reactor, which I was at the time barrier. And

647
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: this is just the pride of the artist, I guess

648
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: proud of because it would have destroyed and operating nuclear

649
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: reactor without creating a radioactive plume um but mopefully, I

650
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,479
Speaker 1: was pretty certain. I was pretty certain. Now. Of course,

651
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 1: I didn't want to do that because the certain result

652
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 1: of that would be the North Korean Army streaming over

653
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: the d m Z and a war beginning, which I

654
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: was confident we would win. But a soul would change

655
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: hands twice and it's an ugly baby, uh as a

656
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: war to contemplate. But I thought that was going to happen.

657
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: And Clinton was really yes, and he was threatening that

658
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 1: to who's the grandfather of the current guy, Kim jongun

659
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: that you see meeting with President Trump. His grandfather Kim

660
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 1: Il sung was running the place then, and Kim Il

661
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: sung rather unexpectedly said, Okay, I'll give up this reactor

662
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: at Young Beyond if you build me some real Western

663
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: reactor that can are power plants and that don't have

664
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: all the proliferation problems. Did we do that? And we

665
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: signed that agreement and it stayed in force for five

666
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: six years. The North Koreans under his son slowly began

667
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: cheating and the whole thing kind of began to fall

668
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: apart later in the night, when we bought ourselves out

669
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: of five six years. Then we had talks again in

670
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: the late nineties. I was part of them. Then, Uh,

671
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: let's see, Condi, Rice and and Colin Pale had some

672
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 1: more in two thousand and six. So I've seen various

673
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: cycles of this and what about the current cycle, Well,

674
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: that's not, unfortunately going anywhere. I don't object to talking

675
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: to the North Koreans. As I said, We've done it

676
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: in the in the past. Um, no president that I

677
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: worked for, going back to Reagan, would meet with the

678
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: North Korean leader unless until there was an agreement. Explain why,

679
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: because they knew that. To the North Koreans, that was

680
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,240
Speaker 1: a huge gift a meeting with the American president because

681
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: in North Korean propaganda that they can tell there are

682
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 1: people everything's okay in our system, which is a disaster

683
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: for the North Korean people, is actually successful because I

684
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: got to meet with the American president. You look at us,

685
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: where the equivalent of a superpas So when you're dealing

686
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: with a potential enemy. You don't in Ash Carter's book,

687
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 1: you don't give away anything for free. So I wouldn't

688
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: give away a meeting with the President United States for

689
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: free without some exchange. Now, yeah, now we gave Now

690
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: we've given it away. We also stopped or curtailed our

691
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: exercises in South Korea, which is a very dangerous move. Remember,

692
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: the exercises are how we keep us and our South

693
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: Korean partners sharp. To make it the North Koreans absolutely

694
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: clear that if they start a war, they will be

695
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 1: destroyed and that will be the end of the regime.

696
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: And that's what those exercises demonstrate. To To not keep

697
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: up that proficiency and not keep demonstrating it risks of

698
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: war on the Korean Peninsula, which as I said, would

699
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: be a war we would win, but would not look

700
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: like anything are people have seen since the last Creating war.

701
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: I mean, the intensity of the violence is unbelievable in

702
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: that war. Although some people have argued that the North

703
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: Korean troops once they're over the border might not be

704
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: as aggressive a enemy as some people have suggested, similar

705
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: to the Iraqi National Guard. Well, it's interesting, Um, you

706
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 1: don't have much evidence on your side. If you have

707
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: that view, well, here's some evidence that goes but it

708
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: all goes the other way. North Korean agents military agents

709
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: captured in South Korea who have been preparing sabotage and

710
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: other things that they intend to do in the course

711
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: of the war like that, um very few of they're

712
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: all so brainwashed that they do not turn compliant. They

713
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: don't come down into this well lit, wealthy society and

714
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: change their views, even though all of their propaganda and

715
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: all of their media and so forth have told them

716
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: that it's a poor and backward place. So if you

717
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,720
Speaker 1: think about it, Barry there in their third or fourth

718
00:43:54,880 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: generation of Stalinism. No other society had that many generation.

719
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: What that means is that your parents don't tell you

720
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 1: stories of how things used to be different. Your grandparents

721
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: don't tell you stories. There's nowhere if your memory is,

722
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: that memory is gone, that there's a different kind of world.

723
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: So I I think the evidence suggests these people are

724
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: brainwashed deeply enough that they'll fight really hard before they

725
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: get tempted by all the good ease down in South Korea.

726
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: Let's talk about another nuclear program. I ran We've had

727
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 1: a couple of interesting military actions by other countries, namely

728
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 1: Israel blew up a reactor. I don't know how many

729
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: decades ago that was, and then the whole centrifuge hack

730
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: UH set them back quite a bit. How close is

731
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: I ran to building a nuclear weapon? And what should

732
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 1: we be doing about that? We had a treaty, this

733
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 1: president UH decided to overturn it. Where are we with

734
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: I ran in there? Well? Obviously the treaty was controversial

735
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 1: in the United States has has rejected it. In the meantime, however,

736
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: it bought us some time because while they were abiding

737
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: by it, and while it was in force, the Iranians

738
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: were obliged to destroy a bunch of centrifuges, send a

739
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: bunch of plutonium to Russia, I mean uranium enriched uranium

740
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: to Russia, and destroy a reactor. And they did all

741
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: that before we backed out of the treaty. So we

742
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 1: got some goodies so to speak, um in exchange for

743
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: US releasing frozen funds that were that's right, that from

744
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: the late Ages, which turned out not to be as

745
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: much as the Iranians wanted. So maybe in time they

746
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: would have left there. Anyway, what's done is done at

747
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: the time that that agreement was negotiated, I was Secretary

748
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: of Defense, and as I I tell a story in

749
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 1: the book which is indicative of how we looked at

750
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: things in the Pentagon. The morning after UH that agreement

751
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: was concluded by Secretary of State Kerry, I sat down

752
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: as I always did with the Chairman of the Joint

753
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: Jesus stabbed a little round table in the Secretary of

754
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: Defense always been there since since George Marshall's day, and

755
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: I would sit there with Marty or later with Joe

756
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: Dunford every morning that we were both in town, and

757
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: also the vice Chairman and the Deputy Secretary Defense, and

758
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: we'd say, Okay, what do we know? What do you

759
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: what do you need today? And the Marty said to me,

760
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: as Secretary, the A proposed this Iranian agreement, what are

761
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: your instructions to the Department? And I said, change nothing. Really,

762
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: I said, it changes nothing. We have a strike plan

763
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: that will destroy the Iranian nuclear program by force if

764
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: we have to. We're gonna keep sixty five troops in

765
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 1: the Gulf a deterrent against Iran, also carrying out the

766
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: Worgans dices um will continue. We have to continue to

767
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: counter Iranian malign influence everywhere else, which is lots of

768
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: places uh, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, and so forth. So I said,

769
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 1: don't change anything. What this does is take off our

770
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: plate a headache that we would otherwise have, which is

771
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: somewhere down the road we would have to face an

772
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: Iran that had nuclear weapons. Uh. And that is why

773
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 1: I thought I didn't object to the agreement. I supported

774
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: the agreement because as Secretary Defense, it took a headache

775
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: off my plate. But I had lots of Iran headaches

776
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 1: on my plate, and I said to Marty, let's keep

777
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: working on all the other headaches that Iran is. This

778
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: is not could never be a grand bargain. So let's

779
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about I Ran and Iraq. I

780
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: thought the best argument against invading Iraq and oh three

781
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: was the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Ends

782
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 1: We may not be fans of Saddam Hussein or Iraq,

783
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: but they were the regional counterbalance too. Iran am I

784
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: oversimplifying that or is that I'm not? That was our

785
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: That was our actually conscious view during the Iran I

786
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: Rock war, which is a pox upon both albus let

787
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 1: them fight each other into the ground, and that seemed

788
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: like a good outcome, And looking back now, you're at

789
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: what the Middle East has become. A a country that

790
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: kept order within its borders, that was not capable of

791
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: major aggression against its its neighbor, which Irraq was. You'd

792
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: otherwise leave alone as long as it wasn't doing anything

793
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: to US America. What we thought might become a threat

794
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: to US was the whole weapon of mass destruction thing.

795
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: But we knew that was nonsense from day one. The

796
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 1: whole Chainey separate department of anytime someone says, yeah, yeah,

797
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 1: they N S A and C I A. Those guys

798
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: don't know what they're doing. We're gonna set up a

799
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: little division in the basement of the White House. You know,

800
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: that's just a nonsensical approach. You can't say that, but

801
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,720
Speaker 1: I can say that. Okay, I not only I wouldn't

802
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: I say that, but because I didn't see that at

803
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 1: the time, I'm just being honest. I'd like to say

804
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,280
Speaker 1: I was apprecient, um, but I actually bought what Colan

805
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: pal said. I thought that I, in my experience in government,

806
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: with that much smoke, there had to be sot fire

807
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: uh somewhere, And so I was disappointed and of course

808
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: it didn't turn out very well because we did uh

809
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: take away the government of Iraq and what was left

810
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: was no government at all, and we've been dealing with

811
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 1: the consequences of that. So let's do a compare and contrast,

812
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: because the fascinating thing about Iraq is the George H. W.

813
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: Bush invasion. In is that no one? So he famously said,

814
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: We're gonna chase Iraq out of Kuwait, but we're not

815
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: going to talk. We're not going to keep going to Baghdad.

816
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: As some people have suggested, Hey keep them going and

817
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: let's just topple on the theory. I assumed that I

818
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: ran as a problem. Let's let Iraq be there as

819
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: a counterweight. Why, first of all, am I right in

820
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 1: saying the senior Bush's approach was the right decision? Was

821
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: the right approach at the time. So what was the

822
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: thinking in OH three let's keep going and take bag

823
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: Dad out as opposed to because we clearly won the

824
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: war in the first six weeks. It was over like

825
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: that because its intention in OH three was specifically to

826
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 1: topple Saddam. Remember the intention of the war was to

827
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: recapture Kuwait, Okay, and then when when that was done,

828
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: President Bush said another. Now there were some and Dick

829
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: Cheney was his Secretary Defense. And I was on the

830
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 1: advisory board to Dick Cheney at that time, and I

831
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: knew him at that time, and he wanted to go

832
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: all the way to bag guttons and let's finish this

833
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 1: off once and for all. The President overruled him, and

834
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: that was controversial at that time. Now fast forward a

835
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: little bit more than a decade, Dick Cheney is now

836
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 1: Vice President UH with some unfinished business, with some unfinished business,

837
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: and so in retrospect, it seems that that was an

838
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: ingredient of the decision to UH to invade and all

839
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 1: this stuff about weapons of mass destruction and so forth,

840
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: which I think was the ordinary citizens reason for supporting

841
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: the OH three invasion. We turned out not to be

842
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 1: a reason at all. So let's roll back to nine

843
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: eleven and the two thousand one attack, which came from

844
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, not Iraq. You have a really

845
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: interesting role, not only in the creation of homeland security,

846
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: but post not eleven. Where were you on September eleventh,

847
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: two thousand and one. I landed in Washington. I must

848
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: have taken off on a aircraft from Boston at eight o'clock,

849
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: just like some of their planes. The town must have

850
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 1: been in that same line waiting to take off. I

851
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 1: landed a National airport and I looked out the windows

852
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 1: we taxied and there was a huge cloud of smoke

853
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 1: over the Pentagon Cla Okay, a place I'd worked getting

854
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,360
Speaker 1: out of for years and years. This huge plumes and

855
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:27,280
Speaker 1: you know what else was in it? Was striking about

856
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,720
Speaker 1: that Barry, guess what else was in there besides smoke? Paper?

857
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: It was a huge you hit it office building, so

858
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: you get is a big plume of of paper and

859
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: I so I thought, well that's odd, but I didn't

860
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: know what the reason. Then I walk up the ramp,

861
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: look at the TV screen in the terminal and I

862
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: see two towers, and then I know exactly And not

863
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: only did I know what was going on, but I

864
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 1: did it right away, and I knew it has been

865
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: laden well. He tried to hit the towers pretty so

866
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: i'd know that. Remember for most Americans, this is like

867
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 1: the Martians had land. You know, Osama who and where

868
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: you come from? Wild earth? Is he doing this? I

869
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: knew right away? Um, and so I, and I began

870
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: to try to help as best I could. One of

871
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: the issues was Tom Ridge became the Highland Security Secretary,

872
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: and I tried to help there get our government better organized.

873
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 1: So what was your role with the establishment of the

874
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: Department of one Land Security? You were? You were? I

875
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: I offered an alternative to that. I was not in

876
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: favor of setting up a formal department. I I thought

877
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: that the Office of Home Land Security UH could be improved.

878
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 1: But when you create a Department of Homeland Security, in

879
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 1: people's mind that brought together all our makes sense. Well

880
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't because if you still have the problem that

881
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: DHS doesn't include the Defense Department, it doesn't include the

882
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:05,240
Speaker 1: colligence community, it doesn't include law enforcement. So the issue

883
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 1: still remains, how do you bring everybody together so instead

884
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 1: of terrorists. So it it creates what looks like a

885
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: little bit of bureaucratic tidiness, but it doesn't get to

886
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: the core issue. So instead of having a coordinated response

887
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 1: from all these different resources, it's just one more bureaucracy

888
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: that tries to pace together some organizations that haven't worked

889
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: together in the past, and they spend all this time

890
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: on themselves, not only not on the enemy. So I

891
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 1: thought I wouldn't have done it, but we did do it,

892
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,800
Speaker 1: and then I tried to help it make it uh

893
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 1: work and for the Defense Department to begin to play

894
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: a stronger role in counter terrorism, you've got to decide.

895
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: We thought we needed to decide, is terrorism crime, a

896
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,439
Speaker 1: disaster or an attack. Have it's a cry, you send

897
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: the FBI, the disaster you send FEMA, And if it's

898
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: an attack, you send the Department of Defense. But in

899
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 1: the real world, they're all three and the president. If

900
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: you think about the president, If I'm Secretary Defense as

901
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,839
Speaker 1: I was, and there's John Kerry as Secretary of State,

902
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 1: and there's these other cabinet members, there are only two

903
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: people who sit atop us, the President the Vice president.

904
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 1: Only two people outrank us. Carry can't make me do anything,

905
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 1: and I can't make Carry do anything. Only the president

906
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: can make us work together. Well, the president is a

907
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 1: busy guy and he can't watch after everything. So inter

908
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 1: agency work is inherently difficult for a president because he's

909
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: got a knock together the heads of cabinet members who

910
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: all have their own proud traditions and laws, and committees

911
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: of Congress and all this stuff, and he's a and

912
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: he's a busy guy. So I thought there was a

913
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 1: better way of doing counter terrorism inter agency out of

914
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 1: the White House. But the President decided to create a department,

915
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 1: and off he went to do it. But I did.

916
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: I opposed that at the time. I also opposed the

917
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: creation of a Director of National Intelligence for the same reason.

918
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 1: Just created another guy on top of six. And if

919
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: the problem is you've got a bunch of people who

920
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 1: you can't get rid of any of them, you can't

921
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 1: put any of them on top of each other. Really,

922
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 1: because law enforcement really is different from the military. Um,

923
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: you've got to get them to work together. So the

924
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: managerial question I always looked at it as a manager.

925
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 1: The managerial question is cooperation, not consolidation. And so you,

926
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: in your managerial mind, you say, how do I get

927
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: different things that I cannot mush together? And it's not

928
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 1: the right approach to push them together to work together.

929
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: That's a different managed social approach. Let me throw the

930
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: question back at you, how do you get the head

931
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: of the FBI, the head of the n s A,

932
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: the head of the c i A, the head of

933
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: the Apartment of Defense Intelligence groups. How do you get

934
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: these disparate groups, all from very different institutions to co

935
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: operate for a common purpose. There's a model, which is

936
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: the National Security Council. It's been in effects since Eisenhower's days,

937
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: as has worked better and worse than in different times.

938
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: But it's now got kind of well, I can't speak

939
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: to right now, um, but uh, it did for a

940
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 1: number of years and really very very efficiently in the

941
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 1: first Bush administration work to get all of the people

942
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: involved in foreign affairs, whether it's economic foreign affairs or

943
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: military foreign affairs, are diplomatic foreign affairs working together every

944
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: day and you know there are meetings at junior levels,

945
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: their cabinet member meetings, and they try to work everything out.

946
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: And then only when they have met and tried does

947
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 1: the president is his precious time used, because remember he's

948
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: the only one who can tell everybody what to do.

949
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 1: But there it needs to. The National Security councils be

950
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: basically intended to put decisions in management form that are

951
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: ready for the President to make a decision that the

952
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: people at the table can't make because that would involve

953
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: bossing one another around, which they can't do. That's a

954
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: that's a functional system. And when Tom Ridge came in

955
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: as Homeland Security Director, he was setting up something that

956
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: was a replica of that. I think if they'd stuck

957
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: with it longer, what can you stick around a bit?

958
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: I have a few more questions for you. We have

959
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: been speaking with Ash Carter, former Secretary of Defense and

960
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: author of a new book, Inside the Five Sided Box,

961
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: Lessons from a lifetime of leadership in the Pentagon. If

962
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: you enjoy this conversation, well be sure and come back

963
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: for the podcast Astras, where we keep the tape rolling

964
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: and continue discussing all things defense related. You can find

965
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: that at iTunes, Google podcast, Stitcher, Spotify, wherever finer podcasts

966
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: are found. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right

967
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 1: to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net.

968
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: Give us a review on Apple iTunes. You can check

969
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 1: out my weekly column on Bloomberg dot com. Follow me

970
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: on Twitter at rit Halts. I'm Barry Hults. You're listening

971
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 1: to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast, Ayesh,

972
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing this. I don't spend

973
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: a lot of time with the former defense secretaries, and

974
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: I have a million questions. I am fascinated by the

975
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: Department of Defense. And if I was born either ten

976
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: years earlier or ten years later, I absolutely would have

977
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 1: joined the military. I was in that. I was in

978
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: that zone at the tail end when I graduated high school.

979
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 1: It was it was still however from v No. No,

980
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 1: the draft was long over, UM, but there was still

981
00:59:56,040 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: hangover from Vietnam, and it my father would have killed

982
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: me if had I done that. UM. I always fancied

983
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: myself a fighter pilot, which, as you described great is

984
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:15,919
Speaker 1: it's a UM. This is now manned aircraft is now

985
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: going to be an antique. It's not like even even today,

986
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:24,479
Speaker 1: you know you're fighting missiles. It's not a dog fight

987
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 1: like it have mixed today, and that mixing will get

988
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 1: even more and more unmanned over time. I think. I

989
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 1: think that's right. There are a couple of questions I

990
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 1: wanted to get to both about the book and some

991
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: of the more interesting things some of the more shocking

992
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 1: things within the book. I love the discussion about the

993
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:46,920
Speaker 1: Joint Strike Fighter, where you're negotiating was is this some

994
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 1: north Rop Lockied Lockied Martin, not Northrop Grumman, which is

995
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 1: what I grew up with. UM. Next town over as

996
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: a kid, um Grumman was in Bethpage and were building

997
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 1: F fourteens there in the middle of negotiations. Uh, it's

998
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: already you come in as Secretary of Defense, it's already

999
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: way over budget, way delayed. And in negotiations, the representative

1000
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 1: from Lockheed asked, well, how many of these you know

1001
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: you're talking about budgets and what have you. How many

1002
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 1: of these planes can you afford? And your answer is

1003
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 1: how about none? And you get up and walk out

1004
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: of the room. Tell us about that negotiation, and first

1005
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 1: of all, why was the Drke's Joint Strike fighter so

1006
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 1: far behind? How important was this as a piece of

1007
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 1: military hardware? And how was this resolved under your leadership?

1008
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 1: That was a tough moment. Uh. In that media room.

1009
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: That was a Saturday, and people knew if I called

1010
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 1: meetings on Saturday, it was because I was pissed. Fight Uh.

1011
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:52,680
Speaker 1: And I did have the CEO of this company, and

1012
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 1: I want to say I have as a successor and

1013
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 1: very good relations with lockeed Martin, and they do a

1014
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 1: lot of good work for us. But business is business

1015
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 1: us And what I was telling him was that if

1016
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 1: this management of this program doesn't improve it's going to

1017
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 1: go down the toilet. It's going down the reputational toilet.

1018
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 1: It's a joke in the media. What's the most bloated

1019
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: thing government? Everybody can say, Joint Strike f you are,

1020
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: and there are toilet seats and people associated with well,

1021
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: and you can't ask for seven or billion dollars for

1022
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: the taxpayer for defense if you're running things like that.

1023
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 1: So I was the weapons buyer at that time, and

1024
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I can't defend this kind of thing,

1025
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: and you're going to drag down the whole program with

1026
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: this kind of management. That's the point I was making

1027
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 1: to him. What did we do with the Joint strike

1028
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: freighter to get it back on track? There are a

1029
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: number of things, but one thing I described in the

1030
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 1: book because it is kind of an executive guide to

1031
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 1: run the place, and contracting is critical. And what I

1032
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 1: did was shift the air early aircraft building contract. One

1033
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 1: of the steps I took to an incentive contract it

1034
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: rather rather than a contract where whatever he spent we

1035
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: gave him. That was the old old That was the

1036
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: old method. And you can imagine where that I mean

1037
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: human nature being as you can see where that leads

1038
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 1: and that's okay. If you're doing an experimental, more developmental

1039
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 1: type thing, you don't really know where it's going to go.

1040
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 1: And it's unfair to make the guy give you a price.

1041
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: Once he's building aircraft and he's been doing it for

1042
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 1: a couple of years, couple of what he's up against, well,

1043
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 1: in this particular model, UH, for a couple of years.

1044
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 1: And I and we I said, let's write a contract

1045
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 1: like this, will agree on a target price seems like

1046
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 1: and that you think and I think, is about what

1047
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: it will cost to build that plane. And we'll put

1048
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 1: a little profit in not a little profit, but a

1049
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 1: reasonable profit in there. For you, every dollar you overrun

1050
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 1: of that, I'm gonna make you pay fifty cents and

1051
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: the tax barrel bay fifty cents, except if it runs

1052
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 1: up to twenty cents on the dollar. After that you

1053
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 1: have to pay for it all. On the other hand,

1054
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 1: if you if you deliver it cheaper then the target

1055
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 1: you get to keep fifty cents. I get fifty cents back. Yes,

1056
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 1: that puts the right economic incentives on the contractor. And

1057
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 1: with that and some other managerial moves, we made the

1058
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 1: costs of the joint stock strike fighters stopped rising and

1059
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: eventually turned over. And now we have a joint strike fighter,

1060
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 1: which I have to tell you that I said earlier

1061
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 1: in this conversation that I think it's the last man

1062
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:43,919
Speaker 1: fighter will ever build. But we do need it now

1063
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 1: because we need fighter aircraft and it's the aircraft of

1064
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 1: the future for our air Force, our Navy, and our

1065
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 1: Marine corps. So without it we would be in trouble.

1066
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 1: On top of which, there are a lot of foreign

1067
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 1: customers for it, and we sell it and it's actually

1068
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 1: good for our economy and for our defense industry. We

1069
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 1: look at the old teens and fifteen. These are decades

1070
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: old planes, right, yes, and they got improved, you know,

1071
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 1: gradually over time, and we sold many of them abroad

1072
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: and they were very useful in Iraq, in Afghanistan and

1073
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 1: so forth, and also in deterring more formidable enemies than

1074
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:26,880
Speaker 1: than the enemies we found uh there, So we needed

1075
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 1: the joint Strike writer. But this is an example of

1076
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 1: how uh, whether it's aircraft carriers, fighter aircraft dogs for

1077
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 1: I E. D s we talk about a services. Do

1078
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 1: you know that half of the contract spend of the

1079
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 1: Department of Defense is not for aircraft and satellites. Not

1080
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: for things. It's for services, mowing the lawn at a base,

1081
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:53,680
Speaker 1: doing high tech R and D, all these things, and

1082
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 1: you have to you have to learn how to be

1083
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 1: a good buyer. They're also so uh as the person

1084
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 1: who ran the acquisition corps, I needed to train them

1085
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 1: to be excellent an acquisition and then I had to

1086
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 1: back them up because when companies trying to push them around,

1087
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 1: or not companies, it was it was always the what

1088
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 1: the lobbyists of the companies tried to push them around,

1089
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 1: or members of Congress of their staffs tried to push

1090
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 1: them around. You need to stick up for them if

1091
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 1: they're doing the right thing. And when you do that,

1092
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 1: that makes everybody in the acquisition corps performed to their

1093
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:35,000
Speaker 1: highest potential. And it was real important to me to

1094
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,560
Speaker 1: set that example that the boss backs you up when

1095
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 1: you do the right thing. And anywhere in the penning

1096
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:43,160
Speaker 1: on and I would say anywhere in leadership, in any department.

1097
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 1: You have to set expectations, but then when people meet

1098
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 1: those expectations and they run into trouble, you need to

1099
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: back them up. That means if you've asked them to

1100
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: do risky stuff and something fails and it doesn't work out,

1101
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 1: you say, fine, you took a risk, and I told

1102
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:03,120
Speaker 1: you to take the risk. It's too often we let

1103
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 1: people take risk in public life and then if it

1104
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 1: doesn't work out, well, we we throw them under the bus.

1105
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: Caught him loose. Yeah, well that's fine. It works once

1106
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:15,920
Speaker 1: and then nobody else wants after that. You don't get

1107
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 1: anything out of them. So you mentioned high tech. Um

1108
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 1: my view of and I think a lot of people's

1109
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: view of the rise of technology in the American economy,

1110
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 1: much of that traces back to DARPA and NASA, and

1111
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 1: whether we're talking semiconductors or software or geosynchronous satellites and GPS,

1112
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 1: all these things traced back to what we did in

1113
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 1: the fifties, sixties, seventies. Are we still engaging in that

1114
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 1: sort of deep research? I know, DARPA still exists, they

1115
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 1: still run all sorts of interesting contest. Self driving cars

1116
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 1: is another example. Are we as cutting edge in the

1117
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: technology world in defense as we once were? And if not,

1118
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 1: what should we be doing that? Well, there are two

1119
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 1: sides to it. We're still a big dog verry. We

1120
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: spend more on R and D than Apple, Microsoft and

1121
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 1: Google combined. So We still do a lot, including a

1122
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 1: lot of frontier stuff. But let's be realistic. When I

1123
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 1: started my career, everything of consequence in the world of technology,

1124
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 1: and you name things g I remember the birth of

1125
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: GPS um by the way, the Defense Department, the Air

1126
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 1: Force supposed, oh no, we didn't want to do it,

1127
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 1: and had to be overturned by the civilian leadership. And

1128
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 1: that it was President Reagan who all by himself decided

1129
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 1: that everybody should be able to use GPS. But still

1130
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:48,679
Speaker 1: it wasn't as granular and detailed as the military grade

1131
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 1: GPS at least. Yeah, that's true, that's true. But but

1132
01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:54,920
Speaker 1: the general point is that everything that mattered and that

1133
01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:58,640
Speaker 1: happened of consequence came out of government, came out of

1134
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 1: the United States, mostly came out of the military within

1135
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 1: the United States. That was then. Now it's a much

1136
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 1: bigger mix. A lot of the technology of consequence to

1137
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 1: the future comes out of the commercial world, and the

1138
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 1: commercial world is inherently global. What does that mean for

1139
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 1: us as the Defense Department? Managerially, it's a very different thing.

1140
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 1: You have to do not only the management within your

1141
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 1: own house if you're an R and D, but I

1142
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,400
Speaker 1: had to build I called him bridges to the tech world,

1143
01:09:28,320 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 1: so that we could stay connected with them and draw

1144
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:35,439
Speaker 1: the best of what they were doing into us, rather

1145
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 1: than having the flow only be the other direction. And now,

1146
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 1: how do you do that when you have Edward Snowden

1147
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 1: and you have a generation of technologists that is kind

1148
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 1: of suspicious of government or thinks government is inferior, and

1149
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 1: they're sort of uh or I had to try to

1150
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,840
Speaker 1: restore that relationship of trust, which was the one that

1151
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 1: launched my career, that went back to the Manhattan Project.

1152
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:05,320
Speaker 1: But all that would all that had been gone, and

1153
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: and Jim Comey, who was my colleague in the FBI,

1154
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 1: was picking fights with Tim Cook, who was the CEO

1155
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:13,960
Speaker 1: of Apple, and I'm in the middle of all of this.

1156
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:17,760
Speaker 1: And I tried, and I think I had some success

1157
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 1: in drawing the tech community, but you had to kind

1158
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 1: of meet him fifty fifties. So, for example, I'd try

1159
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:25,880
Speaker 1: to get people to come in and serve in what

1160
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:30,680
Speaker 1: I called the Defense Digital Service, which is it was

1161
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:33,639
Speaker 1: a a way that you could a tech person could

1162
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 1: come in and just work for one year or on

1163
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 1: one project, and I enough to join the military. They'd

1164
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:42,720
Speaker 1: have to join the civil service, and they just they

1165
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 1: could commit, and I'd go and I'd try to recruit them,

1166
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 1: and they'd have orange hair in their noses, and I'd say,

1167
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:51,640
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna ask you to do anything different. You

1168
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:55,680
Speaker 1: can wear your hoodie coming to the Pentagon. And I

1169
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:58,519
Speaker 1: promise you when you do that, first of all, your

1170
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:06,160
Speaker 1: respect for the Pentagon will be very strong. And second,

1171
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:11,000
Speaker 1: this will be what you'll tell your children about. You'll

1172
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 1: be proudest of this, prouder of this than working somewhere

1173
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:16,840
Speaker 1: where you're selling advertising or whatever, as interesting as that

1174
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: may maybe. And they would come and I wouldn't make

1175
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:23,439
Speaker 1: them change clothes, and they'd be walking around the halls

1176
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 1: along with all of our people who are buttoned down

1177
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:29,799
Speaker 1: and a suit like me, or wearing a uniform um

1178
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 1: and they and it was true. By the time they left,

1179
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,720
Speaker 1: they tell me, this is the most meaningful thing I've

1180
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 1: ever done. And I'm so proud of it. I'm so

1181
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 1: proud of the people that I was with and could

1182
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:43,800
Speaker 1: be part of, could be part of. But if you

1183
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 1: didn't build that bridge at the beginning, and you didn't say, look,

1184
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:49,759
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to agree to disagree about Edward student,

1185
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:52,519
Speaker 1: you may think he's a hero. I think he's a trader.

1186
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 1: But let's agree to disagree about that. But I want

1187
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 1: you to come in and give us a try. And

1188
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:00,600
Speaker 1: then they would come in, they'd give it a try, successful,

1189
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 1: and they'd go back out to Silicon Valley or out

1190
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 1: to Boston or down to Austin, back to the tech hubs,

1191
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:09,640
Speaker 1: and they'd take the word that the government ain't so

1192
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 1: bad after after all, and it does need our help,

1193
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:16,920
Speaker 1: and it deserves our help. So that's interesting you you

1194
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier um I ran in North Korea. Let's talk

1195
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 1: about two other countries you mentioned in the book, uh

1196
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:28,839
Speaker 1: inside the Five Sided Box. Let's talk about China and Russia.

1197
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:36,519
Speaker 1: China seems to be very good at hacking corporate computer

1198
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 1: systems and taking pretty much what they want, including military manufacturers,

1199
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 1: and capturing plans for jets and drones and everything else.

1200
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:53,080
Speaker 1: How dangerous a adversary is China, Well there, I think

1201
01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:56,080
Speaker 1: they're quite dangerous, and I have thought that for quite

1202
01:12:56,120 --> 01:13:00,719
Speaker 1: some time. I came earlier than most people to the view,

1203
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:04,120
Speaker 1: even even though I worked with the Chinese quite closely

1204
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 1: in the nineties, and after two thousand, knew everybody in

1205
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:10,520
Speaker 1: the p l A had good relations with with them.

1206
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 1: It was clear to me that China wasn't going to

1207
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 1: turn out the way everybody had hoped in the nineteen nineties. Yes,

1208
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:21,719
Speaker 1: that would be different. They'd be Chinese, but they wouldn't

1209
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:26,720
Speaker 1: challenge the world order. They wouldn't become an economic competitor.

1210
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: I mean, they wouldn't become a military competitor, and they

1211
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 1: would be become an economic power, but kind of one

1212
01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:36,120
Speaker 1: like US, a free trade type economic uh, and be

1213
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:39,360
Speaker 1: like Canada and Mexico and Europe, and that kind of

1214
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:45,280
Speaker 1: it was well in the nine nineties, you may have

1215
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:49,639
Speaker 1: still held onto that hope. I thought by two thousand,

1216
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:54,040
Speaker 1: when my conversations, as I watched johnsa Men become Hujent

1217
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:57,719
Speaker 1: Tao become Season Pining, and I've known all three of them,

1218
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:01,760
Speaker 1: it became clearer and clearer that they were going down

1219
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:07,920
Speaker 1: under a path quite deliberately, of state is um rather

1220
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:14,559
Speaker 1: than free trade and capitalism, repression rather than an open society,

1221
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 1: and um one that was going to use every advantage

1222
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 1: a dictatorship could have to advantage themselves, including the one

1223
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: you started with, which is using their spy agencies to

1224
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 1: steal information. The Chinese had copied us for a long time,

1225
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 1: or we used to be flattered by that um and

1226
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:35,400
Speaker 1: and then at a certain point they get good enough

1227
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 1: at copying you that it stops being flattering and becomes

1228
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:40,400
Speaker 1: threatening to you. And we we passed that point quite

1229
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:43,960
Speaker 1: some time ago. So let me ask a question here.

1230
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:48,720
Speaker 1: I still look at China as more of an economic

1231
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:52,719
Speaker 1: threat than a and and more of a potential military threat.

1232
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 1: At what point does that balance shift? At what point

1233
01:14:55,920 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: do they become a legitimate military threat at with aims

1234
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:05,719
Speaker 1: of global domination versus letting their economy, which is quite

1235
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 1: an industrial engine, drive the development of the count I

1236
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 1: think they're convinced and determined to be militarily superior, but

1237
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 1: that's not going to happen for a long time. We

1238
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:20,800
Speaker 1: have comprehensive military power that is going to be to

1239
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 1: take a long time for the Chinese to overcome. And

1240
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:25,320
Speaker 1: think about this, We spend a lot more every year

1241
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:29,840
Speaker 1: than they do for starters multiple Secondly, yes, Secondly, we

1242
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:32,720
Speaker 1: have been doing that for decades, which means we have

1243
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:38,599
Speaker 1: this accumulated capital stock that is much larger than their's. Third,

1244
01:15:39,520 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 1: we have an experienced military. Our people have basically been

1245
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:46,960
Speaker 1: at war for the last fifteen years. Our officer courts

1246
01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:51,680
Speaker 1: extremely proficient. And last we have all the friends and

1247
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:56,000
Speaker 1: allies and they have none. Basically they've been buying friends

1248
01:15:56,080 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 1: with that belt and road approach. You know, I'm not

1249
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:03,840
Speaker 1: I think the Belton Road, like them, overtaking us militarily

1250
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 1: is exaggerated. Also, it's what yeah Belton Road. Remember this

1251
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 1: is the country that builds cities with no people in them,

1252
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:15,000
Speaker 1: and so they're perfectly capable of having initiatives with nothing

1253
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:17,400
Speaker 1: going on underneath. What they did with Belton Road was

1254
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:19,679
Speaker 1: gathered together a lot of stuff they were doing. Anyway,

1255
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:25,320
Speaker 1: most of the countries that they they Belton Road with

1256
01:16:25,479 --> 01:16:29,679
Speaker 1: South America. Yeah, well, go to Africa and ask how

1257
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 1: that which where the Chinese came first? And the Chinese

1258
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:35,000
Speaker 1: have worn't out there. It takes about three years and

1259
01:16:35,040 --> 01:16:38,120
Speaker 1: they were out there welcome. Yes, because that's when people

1260
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:42,040
Speaker 1: realize that it's all about China and they're not grants

1261
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:48,160
Speaker 1: their loans, their loans on predatory terms, and the Chinese

1262
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 1: bringing all their own workers and then start taking your

1263
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 1: precious metals out of your country. They bring in their

1264
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:57,519
Speaker 1: own work. And that's the Belton Road. So it's sours

1265
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:00,559
Speaker 1: on people real fast because it's so explode a native,

1266
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:03,439
Speaker 1: you know. And that's where China and we, I think,

1267
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 1: really differ in fundamentally, and that is this if our

1268
01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:12,760
Speaker 1: at our best and usually and certainly our institutions go

1269
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 1: back to the Enlightenment, and it was about the rights

1270
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 1: of man and the dignity of man. Today we'd say, people, um,

1271
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:27,479
Speaker 1: for China, it's all about being Chinese. So our ideology, Yes,

1272
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:29,840
Speaker 1: we're American and we stick up for Americans, and maybe

1273
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:33,760
Speaker 1: we're narrow minded sometime, but at the heart, our political

1274
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 1: values are universal. At their heart, Chinese political values are

1275
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:44,680
Speaker 1: about being China. Pretty soon that dawns on everybody around them.

1276
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 1: Remember also that China is only half of Asia. So

1277
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: I want to have a China policy, but always telling

1278
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:53,760
Speaker 1: people we don't have a China policy, we have an

1279
01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:56,559
Speaker 1: Asia policy, and I want to win the other half.

1280
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:58,479
Speaker 1: I want to trade with it. I wanted to be

1281
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:01,640
Speaker 1: friendly with me. I it to work with me militarily,

1282
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:05,240
Speaker 1: and that is both a good in itself and the

1283
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 1: hedge against China. So we we can't lose those. We

1284
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:14,040
Speaker 1: really had to keep our focus and the Secretary Defense

1285
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:17,760
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time meeting with my counterparts

1286
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:24,120
Speaker 1: from Vietnam, from Laos, from Cambodia, Indonesia, Malaysia, as well

1287
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:27,400
Speaker 1: as the traditional friends like Japan and it's Korean, Australian,

1288
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:31,439
Speaker 1: so forth, to make sure that we had friends there

1289
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:33,559
Speaker 1: and that the Chinese saw that we had friends. So

1290
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:37,839
Speaker 1: let's talk about one other country in Asia, which is Russia.

1291
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:42,960
Speaker 1: Not economically the powerhouse that China is, but they seem

1292
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:49,160
Speaker 1: to be very good at sowing descent and sowing disinformation.

1293
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:54,519
Speaker 1: Their brand of um warfare or pre warfare is kind

1294
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:58,560
Speaker 1: of unique, their involvement in various uh, when you're in

1295
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:01,400
Speaker 1: open society, you have to acknowledge that they're going to

1296
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:06,200
Speaker 1: attempt to disrupt our elections and everything else. How does

1297
01:19:06,479 --> 01:19:10,559
Speaker 1: the former secretary of Defense look at the former Soviet

1298
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:13,840
Speaker 1: Union that's now Russia. Well, when your trend lines are

1299
01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:17,400
Speaker 1: all down like Russia's and rather than up like China's,

1300
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:20,880
Speaker 1: you only have one tool, and that is to be

1301
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:25,160
Speaker 1: a spoiler. And the Russians have perfected being a spoiler.

1302
01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 1: So they have NATO, which has unity, and so they

1303
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:33,280
Speaker 1: try to to so discord. They had the United States,

1304
01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:35,719
Speaker 1: which is doing fine and powerful and won the Cold

1305
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:38,000
Speaker 1: War and they resent and so their way of trying

1306
01:19:38,040 --> 01:19:40,479
Speaker 1: to get back at US is to try to so

1307
01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:44,679
Speaker 1: discord within the United States. That's all they have. And

1308
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:48,320
Speaker 1: when dealing with Putin over the years, by the way

1309
01:19:48,360 --> 01:19:52,040
Speaker 1: I first met Vladimir Putin, he was a note taker

1310
01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:55,800
Speaker 1: meetings between Clinton and Yelson. He sat in the back,

1311
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:57,679
Speaker 1: this guy, and we knew who he was, c Ia

1312
01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:03,400
Speaker 1: knew he was. He's back there taking his and my

1313
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:07,400
Speaker 1: view of him has been if it were only that

1314
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:12,920
Speaker 1: we disagreed about Syria and van and NATO expansion and

1315
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:16,519
Speaker 1: so forth, those are normal geopolitical issues, and there with

1316
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:18,800
Speaker 1: a foreign leader, you go in and you agree where

1317
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 1: you can, and you agree to disagree where you can't,

1318
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:24,320
Speaker 1: and you go on. The problem with him is as

1319
01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:26,280
Speaker 1: you work down the list, you find he has an

1320
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:28,880
Speaker 1: item on his list that you can't build a bridge to,

1321
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 1: and that's screwing us, and that's on his to do list.

1322
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:37,240
Speaker 1: It's very hard to negotiate on and say, well, let's

1323
01:20:37,240 --> 01:20:40,600
Speaker 1: talk about screwing us and maybe we can meet halfway.

1324
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:42,839
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not going to do that. I expect

1325
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,280
Speaker 1: we're going to find out that Russia was much more

1326
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:49,639
Speaker 1: involved in Brexit than anybody previously imagined. Yeah, that's actually

1327
01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:54,240
Speaker 1: a new documentary out called A Great Hack Netflix documentary

1328
01:20:54,280 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 1: which describes exactly that. Very deeply involved in trying so

1329
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 1: that now. Of course for them, it was there. They're

1330
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:08,040
Speaker 1: they're uh, throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing right

1331
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:12,240
Speaker 1: stick there. They're fomenting all kinds of discord, and every

1332
01:21:12,280 --> 01:21:13,960
Speaker 1: once in a while one of these goes, one of

1333
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:17,400
Speaker 1: these long shots goes the distance and doesn't just stir

1334
01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:19,320
Speaker 1: up a cloud of dust. But there's a cowboy at

1335
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:21,679
Speaker 1: the end of it. And in the case of Brexit,

1336
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:24,880
Speaker 1: they scored um. But I don't think going into it

1337
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:26,599
Speaker 1: that they knew they were going to win that one.

1338
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:32,120
Speaker 1: They were, uh, that's what week countries do. And and

1339
01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:35,320
Speaker 1: Russia basically has nuclear weapons and being a spoiler, and

1340
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 1: that's all it's got. I have a million questions for you,

1341
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:39,679
Speaker 1: but I know I only have you for a short

1342
01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:42,280
Speaker 1: period of time. Let me ask you some of my

1343
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:45,120
Speaker 1: favorite questions I ask all my guests sort of our

1344
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:48,560
Speaker 1: speed rounds, and then we'll get you over to television

1345
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:52,240
Speaker 1: and have you continue the conversation. What was the first

1346
01:21:52,240 --> 01:21:55,960
Speaker 1: car you ever owned? Year making model? It was a

1347
01:21:56,080 --> 01:22:00,360
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight empower. And the reason and I know

1348
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:03,280
Speaker 1: intimately about that car was I worked for five years

1349
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:05,880
Speaker 1: at gas station on North broad Street in Philadelphia. Was

1350
01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:07,880
Speaker 1: my second job. The first job was at a car wash,

1351
01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:10,680
Speaker 1: and I got fired from it. Uh, and then I

1352
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:12,160
Speaker 1: walked up the street and got a job at a

1353
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:15,160
Speaker 1: Gulf station there and and therefore I could take that

1354
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:18,080
Speaker 1: car apart and put it back together again, something I

1355
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:20,960
Speaker 1: could never do with a car today. Well, it's all

1356
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:25,320
Speaker 1: chips and computers. It's you have to replace. You just replace, uh,

1357
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:27,800
Speaker 1: chunks of it. You know, there are no turning and

1358
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:31,040
Speaker 1: ranches and stuff. Tell us about your early mentors who

1359
01:22:31,080 --> 01:22:34,200
Speaker 1: influenced your career, whether it was academically an m I. T.

1360
01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:40,160
Speaker 1: And Harvard or UM professionally in the Pentagon two years.

1361
01:22:40,360 --> 01:22:44,360
Speaker 1: The people who got me from being a physicist to

1362
01:22:44,479 --> 01:22:49,320
Speaker 1: being a public servant were those guys from the UM

1363
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:53,400
Speaker 1: generation of the Manhattan Project that I referred to earlier,

1364
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:57,520
Speaker 1: who believed that they had UM done something of consequence,

1365
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:01,960
Speaker 1: namely the nuclear weapon. But with no college came responsibility.

1366
01:23:02,160 --> 01:23:06,240
Speaker 1: Then later in my in the time where I slowly

1367
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:09,200
Speaker 1: kind of worked my way up from junior ranks in

1368
01:23:09,240 --> 01:23:13,400
Speaker 1: the Defense Establishment to becoming the Secretary of Defense. Um,

1369
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:19,559
Speaker 1: there were people uh like Jim Slessinger, was Richard Nixon,

1370
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:26,320
Speaker 1: same great great guy, Brent Scotcroft, national security advisor and

1371
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:31,960
Speaker 1: four star general previous yes three start Actually okay, he

1372
01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:37,080
Speaker 1: deserved one. Um Bill Perry, who was Secretary of Defense,

1373
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:41,760
Speaker 1: Admiral Inn. This is a guy who There was a

1374
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:44,479
Speaker 1: Perry long ago who was a no. This is a

1375
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:47,799
Speaker 1: guy who was a scientist like it turns out, but

1376
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:51,559
Speaker 1: not all three of those were um Bob Gates. These

1377
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:58,120
Speaker 1: were people who were uh capable, and they always stuck up,

1378
01:23:58,200 --> 01:24:01,799
Speaker 1: stuck up for a junior person. And I got myself

1379
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:04,559
Speaker 1: into a few tight jams where I thought I was

1380
01:24:04,640 --> 01:24:06,639
Speaker 1: doing the right thing. One of them was with respect

1381
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:11,200
Speaker 1: to President Reagan star Wars, which I I said wasn't

1382
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:14,000
Speaker 1: going to work, was my technical judgment. Well, that flew

1383
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:19,240
Speaker 1: in the face of a president's desire, and I learned

1384
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:21,800
Speaker 1: what it was like to tell the truth in the

1385
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,800
Speaker 1: real world, where presidents don't like when you trap all

1386
01:24:24,880 --> 01:24:29,120
Speaker 1: over there initiatives. But those people that I just named

1387
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:32,320
Speaker 1: stuck up for me at that time and therefore stuck

1388
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:35,320
Speaker 1: up for the truth, and that made me feel that

1389
01:24:35,360 --> 01:24:39,280
Speaker 1: there was dignity and honor as well as purpose in

1390
01:24:39,320 --> 01:24:42,800
Speaker 1: public life. And I tried to carry that forward with me.

1391
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:44,320
Speaker 1: And I don't think I would have stuck with it

1392
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:46,960
Speaker 1: if I hadn't been able to look up at my

1393
01:24:47,160 --> 01:24:49,840
Speaker 1: at people who it turns out, became my predecessors and

1394
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:53,200
Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense and say that is not only a

1395
01:24:53,280 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 1: capable and patriotic person, but an admirable and honorable person.

1396
01:24:58,240 --> 01:25:00,400
Speaker 1: Quite quite interesting. Let's let's talk ab out some of

1397
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:03,120
Speaker 1: your favorite books. What do you enjoy reading. You're a

1398
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:06,280
Speaker 1: bit of a it's funny berry. I am uh, and

1399
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:12,200
Speaker 1: I'm all nonfiction because I love to learn about something

1400
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:16,120
Speaker 1: I've never seen, never done, never will do. That's why

1401
01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:18,240
Speaker 1: I wrote the book I did about the Pentagon, because

1402
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:19,920
Speaker 1: if you've never been in the Pentagon and you want

1403
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:21,880
Speaker 1: to know how all the parts were, it paints quite

1404
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:25,000
Speaker 1: a vivid picture. It's an executive guide or a citizens

1405
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:27,639
Speaker 1: guide to the Pentagon. Side about me, it's about the

1406
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:29,800
Speaker 1: the Pentagon. I like reading books like that. That's why

1407
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:31,920
Speaker 1: I wrote a book like that. I read, and this

1408
01:25:32,040 --> 01:25:36,640
Speaker 1: may surprise you, textbooks. Okay, it may sound boring, but

1409
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:39,759
Speaker 1: here's why a text if you want to learn something.

1410
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:45,200
Speaker 1: A textbook is about is designed. It's written to teach you.

1411
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:48,920
Speaker 1: So from a good textbook you can learn a lot

1412
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:53,599
Speaker 1: about a subject you don't know. And um, second, if

1413
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:56,280
Speaker 1: you don't like if if something doesn't come through to

1414
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:59,120
Speaker 1: you in the first textbook, get another textbook. I always

1415
01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:02,120
Speaker 1: get three or four the same. I like mathematics, I

1416
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:05,479
Speaker 1: like physics, but about like history and language and so

1417
01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:08,640
Speaker 1: forth too, because then you can say, well, I'm gonna this.

1418
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:12,320
Speaker 1: I didn't get this guy's explanation of a certain subject,

1419
01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:14,519
Speaker 1: so I'll go to the corresponding chapter and the other

1420
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:17,480
Speaker 1: one and read that, and they've got a better explanation,

1421
01:26:17,520 --> 01:26:20,240
Speaker 1: and you go back and forth. I like doing that.

1422
01:26:20,439 --> 01:26:24,360
Speaker 1: And it may sound like an odd recommendation to people,

1423
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:29,080
Speaker 1: but if you like to learn, try textbooks. Okay, there's

1424
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:31,080
Speaker 1: there's two books I have to ask you about on

1425
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:33,720
Speaker 1: the off chance you might have read them based on

1426
01:26:34,160 --> 01:26:38,280
Speaker 1: our previous discussion. One is a book on the history

1427
01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:41,760
Speaker 1: of the medieval era with the title A World Lit

1428
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 1: Only by Fire. I have I had not read it,

1429
01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:48,160
Speaker 1: but I've I've read. I guess it's kind of fascinating

1430
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:52,320
Speaker 1: because that thousand year period is shocking for the lack

1431
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 1: of technological advancement. Before and after Tons it was it

1432
01:26:57,920 --> 01:27:00,880
Speaker 1: was dark and every it wasn't cold, truly dark. But

1433
01:27:01,160 --> 01:27:06,000
Speaker 1: if you look at human material progress, not allow for

1434
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:08,639
Speaker 1: the wet. For Western culture, there was a thousand years

1435
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:12,840
Speaker 1: when say, Islam was going great and yes, and they

1436
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:16,200
Speaker 1: were doing mathematics, and they were doing all sorts of

1437
01:27:16,200 --> 01:27:20,040
Speaker 1: things with trade and pottery and glass, and we were

1438
01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:22,240
Speaker 1: doing nothing. Ever in the Western world. The the other

1439
01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:24,920
Speaker 1: book that you immediately made me think of when you

1440
01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:30,200
Speaker 1: were describing how people often don't appreciate and understand what

1441
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:33,839
Speaker 1: the government is doing is the most recent Michael Lewis

1442
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:37,320
Speaker 1: book called The Fifth Risk, which is about all these

1443
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:40,879
Speaker 1: scientists and all these managers that are doing the government's

1444
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:44,280
Speaker 1: work that is effectively essential and most of us are

1445
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:48,599
Speaker 1: oblivious to it. Well, that's in a sense the theme

1446
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:53,040
Speaker 1: of that book is the theme of my life of

1447
01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:57,920
Speaker 1: getting into national defense as a technologist, and there are

1448
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:00,439
Speaker 1: lots of other skills as well. I'm a strong believer

1449
01:28:01,280 --> 01:28:06,880
Speaker 1: that um uh, the best government is one that people

1450
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:10,360
Speaker 1: come into and go out of. Now we're criticized for that,

1451
01:28:10,680 --> 01:28:14,200
Speaker 1: for the reving for the yeah, and every administration, things

1452
01:28:14,320 --> 01:28:17,719
Speaker 1: change And here's how it looks to me about political

1453
01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:25,240
Speaker 1: appointees and government. About half of them are really good. Uh,

1454
01:28:25,280 --> 01:28:27,320
Speaker 1: a quarter of them have no idea what they're doing

1455
01:28:27,439 --> 01:28:30,479
Speaker 1: at first, but they learn fast and they're patriotic and

1456
01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:32,679
Speaker 1: they do well. And a quarter of them are hopeless

1457
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:34,880
Speaker 1: and never get any better. That's pretty much the way

1458
01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:38,280
Speaker 1: it is. But they bring in a freshness every time

1459
01:28:38,439 --> 01:28:40,439
Speaker 1: they come that I think is healthy for our government.

1460
01:28:40,439 --> 01:28:43,120
Speaker 1: And so compared to the British, who are horrified, for example,

1461
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:45,920
Speaker 1: to see all their counterparts chart change every time for

1462
01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:50,400
Speaker 1: presidential administration change, it's pretty helpful. But in a time,

1463
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:53,120
Speaker 1: particularly in the military, where we're very we're never going

1464
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:56,240
Speaker 1: to return to the draft. We will continue to get

1465
01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:58,479
Speaker 1: people to register for the draft because it's a little

1466
01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:02,800
Speaker 1: reminder that they owe something to their country. But I

1467
01:29:02,840 --> 01:29:07,200
Speaker 1: don't want there are four million kids who turn eighteen

1468
01:29:07,240 --> 01:29:10,720
Speaker 1: every year. I don't need four million. I need a

1469
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:13,479
Speaker 1: quarter of a million. And moreover, many of them are

1470
01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:16,920
Speaker 1: not physically or mentally fit to be in our military today,

1471
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:18,880
Speaker 1: so there'll never be a citizen army. So there needs

1472
01:29:18,880 --> 01:29:23,719
Speaker 1: to be some way of linking the people and government,

1473
01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:26,800
Speaker 1: and one way is for those who have something to

1474
01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:32,840
Speaker 1: contribute to to to UM, find some way of being

1475
01:29:32,920 --> 01:29:36,240
Speaker 1: supportive UH. And there are lots of ways of of

1476
01:29:36,280 --> 01:29:40,360
Speaker 1: doing that. So I I think that's important for citizens

1477
01:29:40,400 --> 01:29:43,240
Speaker 1: that don't don't believe yourself made. Even if you're a

1478
01:29:43,280 --> 01:29:46,600
Speaker 1: successful person, none of us is self made. Tell us

1479
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:49,240
Speaker 1: about a time you failed and what you learned from

1480
01:29:49,280 --> 01:29:58,400
Speaker 1: the experience. UM. I early early on in my UH

1481
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:02,040
Speaker 1: time in to speak the big leagues, the number three,

1482
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:07,040
Speaker 1: number two, number one, UH, I had to work very

1483
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:10,120
Speaker 1: hard at dealing with the press and the Congress and

1484
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:14,639
Speaker 1: just getting good at that. UM. And first of all,

1485
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:16,920
Speaker 1: you have to start from the right place that I did,

1486
01:30:17,040 --> 01:30:20,880
Speaker 1: which is you can't start from a position of disdain. UH.

1487
01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:24,080
Speaker 1: Congress for example, you know, most of these guys are

1488
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:27,720
Speaker 1: working so hard. There's so they're they are trying to

1489
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:30,880
Speaker 1: understand a much wider range of issues than even the

1490
01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:33,559
Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense. They have to vote on all these

1491
01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:37,240
Speaker 1: other issues. And so you have to start with a

1492
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:40,280
Speaker 1: attitude that they're very they're that they're very stretched, and

1493
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:43,759
Speaker 1: they're they're trying. UM. But what I had to do, Barry,

1494
01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 1: and I described this in the book is practice. I

1495
01:30:47,200 --> 01:30:50,400
Speaker 1: would sit down before a hearing, or before I went

1496
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:53,040
Speaker 1: out and made an announcement or did a press conference,

1497
01:30:53,360 --> 01:30:55,479
Speaker 1: I would got in practice and I at my staff

1498
01:30:55,520 --> 01:30:57,439
Speaker 1: and I'd get Joe Doneford. It was a chairman with me,

1499
01:30:57,560 --> 01:31:00,680
Speaker 1: so he could learn to in the same roy and

1500
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:03,160
Speaker 1: I'd say, asked me all the hard questions, asked me

1501
01:31:03,240 --> 01:31:06,679
Speaker 1: the things that I might not have thought of. UM,

1502
01:31:06,720 --> 01:31:09,120
Speaker 1: because when you're when you're going real fast. And I

1503
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:11,040
Speaker 1: was going real fast, because there's a lot I wanted

1504
01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:15,000
Speaker 1: to do and I had two years as the top guy, UM,

1505
01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:17,400
Speaker 1: and I had had all those years to think about

1506
01:31:17,880 --> 01:31:20,479
Speaker 1: what I would like to see see Donna. I was

1507
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:25,799
Speaker 1: going fast, UM, and I wanted them to catch the

1508
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:28,240
Speaker 1: soft spots in my arguments. And the place was where

1509
01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:31,479
Speaker 1: I was skipping over over things. So I wasn't too

1510
01:31:31,479 --> 01:31:34,840
Speaker 1: proud to practice. But Chuck Hagel, who came before me,

1511
01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:38,519
Speaker 1: who was a very very great guy, he didn't practice

1512
01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:42,200
Speaker 1: for his confirmation hearing, and that was a rough confinmations

1513
01:31:42,200 --> 01:31:45,360
Speaker 1: of very rough confirmation. And I asked him to practice.

1514
01:31:45,400 --> 01:31:48,720
Speaker 1: I said, I wasn't too proud to practice, and he said,

1515
01:31:48,720 --> 01:31:50,280
Speaker 1: I've been a member of the Senate for a long time.

1516
01:31:50,320 --> 01:31:52,800
Speaker 1: I know how to handle it. I think in retrospect

1517
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:54,679
Speaker 1: he would have done well, done a little bit better

1518
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:58,040
Speaker 1: if he had he had practiced um. But that was

1519
01:31:58,080 --> 01:32:01,120
Speaker 1: something I wasn't good at, and I describe in the

1520
01:32:01,160 --> 01:32:03,439
Speaker 1: book holl if you're that kind of person, or you

1521
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:07,280
Speaker 1: think you might be, don't be too proud. Um. What

1522
01:32:07,320 --> 01:32:12,080
Speaker 1: are you most optimistic about the penticon and the military

1523
01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:16,240
Speaker 1: procumin process going forward? And what are you most pessimistic

1524
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:23,080
Speaker 1: about about his procurement process? I think that if the

1525
01:32:23,479 --> 01:32:28,559
Speaker 1: it continues, the kind have good management at the top,

1526
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:31,559
Speaker 1: and I can't speak for that, of course I tried

1527
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:36,040
Speaker 1: to set that example, but I don't know. Um Uh.

1528
01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:38,799
Speaker 1: I think we can continue to be the finest fighting

1529
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:42,200
Speaker 1: force the world has overknown technologically as well as in

1530
01:32:42,280 --> 01:32:45,400
Speaker 1: the kind of people we attract, and generally speaking, I'm

1531
01:32:45,439 --> 01:32:49,560
Speaker 1: optimistic about that for our military overall, it's a learning organization.

1532
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:54,200
Speaker 1: It's very constructive organization. It's been at the top technologically

1533
01:32:54,200 --> 01:32:56,720
Speaker 1: in terms of human talent, and if it continues to

1534
01:32:56,840 --> 01:32:59,880
Speaker 1: draw from the civilian world the very best trade craft

1535
01:33:00,280 --> 01:33:02,000
Speaker 1: from them about how to be good and how to

1536
01:33:02,040 --> 01:33:04,200
Speaker 1: compete and how to be the best, I think I'm

1537
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 1: I'm confident we can be the best. I also think

1538
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:13,719
Speaker 1: that it's a great molder of of citizens. Our veterans

1539
01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:18,160
Speaker 1: are wonderful people. They're they're morally correct, they know how

1540
01:33:18,200 --> 01:33:23,400
Speaker 1: to behave themselves and conduct themselves. Uh, They're disciplined and determined,

1541
01:33:23,479 --> 01:33:29,120
Speaker 1: and they understand that we all live here and uh

1542
01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:32,320
Speaker 1: that the government is one of the ways, but not

1543
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:38,200
Speaker 1: the only way, that we keep our society and civilization going.

1544
01:33:38,320 --> 01:33:41,320
Speaker 1: They have that imbued in them. They know that they're

1545
01:33:41,360 --> 01:33:44,520
Speaker 1: not self made, that they're part of a wider society,

1546
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:48,920
Speaker 1: all those good values. So I'm pretty optimistic. And our

1547
01:33:48,960 --> 01:33:52,080
Speaker 1: final question, what do you know about the world of

1548
01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:57,679
Speaker 1: politics and diplomacy and the Pentagon today that you wish

1549
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:04,040
Speaker 1: you knew when you were getting started. I didn't always.

1550
01:34:04,400 --> 01:34:06,400
Speaker 1: I think I took a lot for granted in the

1551
01:34:06,400 --> 01:34:08,080
Speaker 1: course of my life when I talked about the gym

1552
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:10,679
Speaker 1: Slassingers and the Prince car across from the Bill Perry's

1553
01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:13,360
Speaker 1: and the pop Games, and I'm being I could always

1554
01:34:13,439 --> 01:34:17,920
Speaker 1: look northward right up to the President and there was

1555
01:34:19,320 --> 01:34:22,920
Speaker 1: uh a good order and discipline for the most part

1556
01:34:23,040 --> 01:34:26,200
Speaker 1: in the government. And these were admirable people. They made

1557
01:34:26,240 --> 01:34:29,360
Speaker 1: mistakes there for sure, and I didn't agree with everything

1558
01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:32,519
Speaker 1: they did. But starting with President Reagan and the first

1559
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:35,000
Speaker 1: president I worked under, I could look up and I say,

1560
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:39,720
Speaker 1: the President United States is is someone whom I can

1561
01:34:39,760 --> 01:34:42,840
Speaker 1: work for and kind of emulate what he stands for.

1562
01:34:43,680 --> 01:34:45,479
Speaker 1: There's a part of our country and it's not just

1563
01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:53,760
Speaker 1: the president, but it's that um Ah. I I now

1564
01:34:53,920 --> 01:35:01,720
Speaker 1: understand how lucky I was to have those people above me,

1565
01:35:02,000 --> 01:35:05,000
Speaker 1: and maybe I took that for granted. I mean, I'm

1566
01:35:05,000 --> 01:35:07,719
Speaker 1: a believer in what we've been doing in the world

1567
01:35:08,960 --> 01:35:11,920
Speaker 1: all these decades. I now realized that you you really

1568
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:14,880
Speaker 1: have to keep proving that to the public and make

1569
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:20,400
Speaker 1: them understand that this is a necessity and you can't

1570
01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:23,000
Speaker 1: take anything for granted. So I I would take a

1571
01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:25,840
Speaker 1: lot less for granted now than I thought I could

1572
01:35:25,920 --> 01:35:28,080
Speaker 1: when I started my career. But I had around me

1573
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:32,519
Speaker 1: people like those um and you tend to do that

1574
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:37,200
Speaker 1: quite quite fascinating. We have been speaking with Ash Carter,

1575
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:40,880
Speaker 1: former Secretary of Defense and author of a new book,

1576
01:35:41,040 --> 01:35:44,479
Speaker 1: Inside the Five Sided Box, Lessons from a Lifetime of

1577
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:48,360
Speaker 1: Leadership in the Pentagon. If you enjoy this conversation, we'll

1578
01:35:48,439 --> 01:35:50,160
Speaker 1: be sure to look up an intro down an Inch

1579
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:53,120
Speaker 1: on Apple iTunes, and you can see any of the

1580
01:35:53,200 --> 01:35:56,639
Speaker 1: previous three hundred or so such conversations we've had over

1581
01:35:56,640 --> 01:36:00,720
Speaker 1: the past five years. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions.

1582
01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:04,599
Speaker 1: Write to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net.

1583
01:36:05,000 --> 01:36:08,360
Speaker 1: Please give us a review on Apple iTunes. I would

1584
01:36:08,360 --> 01:36:10,439
Speaker 1: be remiss if I did not thank the crack staff

1585
01:36:10,479 --> 01:36:14,679
Speaker 1: that helps put these conversations together each week. Michael Boyle

1586
01:36:14,920 --> 01:36:18,919
Speaker 1: is my producer. Carolin O'Brien is my audio engineer ATKA.

1587
01:36:19,000 --> 01:36:22,680
Speaker 1: Val Bern is my project manager. Michael Batnick is my

1588
01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:26,679
Speaker 1: head of research. I'm Barry Retults. You're listening to Masters

1589
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:28,880
Speaker 1: in Business on Bloomberg Radio.