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Speaker 1: You know, the language is kind of saucy so a

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Speaker 1: lot of times, so it's a section with you, I know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I chose it a little spicy.

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Speaker 1: You're like my target reader. You're the person I wanted

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Speaker 1: to like create this book for, like powerful round black

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Speaker 1: women who are like just doing the thing and then

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Speaker 1: you know, being complex and crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I felt that. I felt like you were speaking

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Speaker 2: to me. All right, well let me kick off the show.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Brown Ambition. I am so excited to be joined

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Speaker 2: by the Clarence Haynes. He is the author of Brown

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Speaker 2: Ambition's official book club selection for August and September. Y'all,

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Speaker 2: I am so excited for y'all to read his book.

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Speaker 2: And it's called Ghosts of Gwendola Montgomery. I have fifty

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Speaker 2: eleven copies. This is the that I've been Gail King reading.

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Speaker 2: You know when Gail always comes out with the book

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Speaker 2: and it's got like seventy eleven little sticky notes in it.

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Speaker 2: That's my note taking copy. I also have one on display.

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Speaker 2: I told Clarence I made an altar to his book,

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Speaker 2: which is very on brand. We're going to get into

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Speaker 2: the book. It's all going to make sense. But Clarence,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. I'm over

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Speaker 1: the moon. And thank you for your hospitality and the

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Speaker 1: altar and the coordination of all things. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: You're going to feel right at home. My dog's about

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Speaker 2: to start barking. I can feel her rumbling, so you

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Speaker 2: know it's all family here. Well, you're in New York, right,

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Speaker 2: We're both in New York, is that right.

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Speaker 1: I'm in a in Brooklyn and Clinton Hill. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in the Bronx.

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Speaker 2: You have a voice for podcasting and radio before.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah. I can't say have done much voiceover work.

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Speaker 1: Have been in the performing arts. I've sung a bit

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Speaker 1: and okay, people have been so nice. People have been

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Speaker 1: asking me if I did the audio book, and it

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Speaker 1: would have been far too stressful, and people really here

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Speaker 1: for folks who are into audiobooks. Brittany Bradford and Andre Santana,

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Speaker 1: the two narrators, they did an amazing job.

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Speaker 2: They did such a good job. I listened and I

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Speaker 2: listened to the book on audio. Because we're a working mom,

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Speaker 2: we don't have our hands free lots of times, and

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Speaker 2: narrators can make or break the audio book, and had

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Speaker 2: they not been so good, I probably would have had

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Speaker 2: to like put down the kids are gotten a babysitter

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Speaker 2: or something to read the hard copy. But they were phenomenal.

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Speaker 1: The phenomenal They've already Audiophile Magazine. They already won an

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Speaker 1: award really yeah, for like outstanding narration. I forget the

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Speaker 1: exact language they're they're they're getting. I'm pretty sure like

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Speaker 1: end of year list they're going to be they're going

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Speaker 1: to be recognized because everyone their mama is just like wow.

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Speaker 2: So and it's just a book that you made that

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Speaker 2: is now like lifting up careers and winning awards for

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Speaker 2: the girls who have not had a chance to pick

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Speaker 2: up the book yet, could you give us a quick

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Speaker 2: synopsis of what this book is about and what they

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Speaker 2: can expect.

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Speaker 1: Sure. So, the book, as people know it, is called

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Speaker 1: The Ghosts of Gwendolen Montgomery. It is about a high

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Speaker 1: powered New York publicist who has a secret, mystical past.

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Speaker 1: The title character her name is Gwendolen Montgomery. However, one

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Speaker 1: thing I can reveal her identity is constructed and so

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Speaker 1: as the story infurls, we begin to get more and

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Speaker 1: more intel about who she really is. She's basically coordinating

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Speaker 1: this really big fashion event at the Brooklyn Museum that

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Speaker 1: goes horribly wrong, and then that takes the story. The

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Speaker 1: story begins the boss arster role in terms of us

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Speaker 1: figuring out who is this character. She's also has a

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Speaker 1: mysterious connection to an Afro latinae queer psychic who runs

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Speaker 1: a botanica in the South Bronx. His name is Fonsie.

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Speaker 2: I'm Susie.

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Speaker 1: He's in a bit of a mess. He's having a

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Speaker 1: love triangle between his ex, his toxic ex boyfriend Raphael,

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Speaker 1: and this mysterious ghost with which she's having.

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Speaker 2: Why are you giving everything away?

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Speaker 1: And the big the big issue is he also comes

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Speaker 1: with a warning for us that ghosts are about to

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Speaker 1: invade the human world. And so there's there's also, again

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Speaker 1: I use a word mysterious, a mysterious connection between him

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Speaker 1: and Gwenda Montgomery. So that's that's it in a nutshell.

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Speaker 1: It's a way of I'm paying homage to New York City,

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Speaker 1: to my roots. My family here from Panama and I

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Speaker 1: grew up in the Bronx. I've pretty much lived in

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Speaker 1: New York most of my life, and so I wanted

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Speaker 1: to do something that would pay tribute to my home city,

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Speaker 1: to the culture that I grew up with, and then

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Speaker 1: also that honored my love of speculative fiction, of fantasy, supernatural,

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Speaker 1: sci fi. That's my jam. That's that's always what I

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Speaker 1: want to infuse in my writing.

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Speaker 2: So, yes, it's very paranormal. It's kind of I mean, sexy, ghostbustery, insecure,

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Speaker 2: kind of mixed like these are the things on my

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Speaker 2: mood board as I was, kind of it's very visually stimulating,

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Speaker 2: the words, the colors of the book, and yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: it's it's a world like it's a modern New York.

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Speaker 2: It definitely like I could I feel like I walk

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Speaker 2: alongside a Gwendolen. You know, if I'm going into the city,

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Speaker 2: we all probably know a woman like Gwendolen. We probably

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Speaker 2: won't wish we were her friends, but we've probably just

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Speaker 2: low key stand her on the internet and just like

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Speaker 2: like all her pains. But she is a baddie and

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Speaker 2: she is quite mysterious. But yeah, so okay, the characters.

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Speaker 2: One of my first questions was who inspired Gwendolen first

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Speaker 2: and foremost, because I do want to give her her shine,

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Speaker 2: although Phonsie does his damn best to try to steal

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Speaker 2: her spotlight because he's so adorable. But start with Gwendolen.

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Speaker 2: Where'd the inspiration for her come from? And what did

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Speaker 2: you want her to represent?

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Speaker 1: Sure? So I wanted you. I wanted Gwendolyn to represent

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Speaker 1: women like you. You know, as I said, I grew

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Speaker 1: up in New York and I was surrounded by these

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Speaker 1: array of black and brown women and I always just

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Speaker 1: an image that stayed with me for years has been

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Speaker 1: there's an image of Shirley Chisholm riding the subway with

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Speaker 1: her second husband and he's in a suit and she's

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Speaker 1: in her she's doing her Shirley chism. Look she has

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Speaker 1: her dress, you know, the glasses, the wig. I can't

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Speaker 1: I can't remember. She has a purse. I believe the

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Speaker 1: picture ran in the Daily News, and you know they

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Speaker 1: were writing subway and you see the graffiti, and you

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Speaker 1: know the subway looked like the subway at that time.

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Speaker 1: But there was just this powerful, cogmopolitan black woman and

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that's like for me as a kid,

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Speaker 1: was like, that's the promise of who I could be

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Speaker 1: one day and so that's never left me though, that

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Speaker 1: that type of feeling, and so I just knew. I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, I want to do something that. You know,

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Speaker 1: these these glam women who I've I've grown up with

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Speaker 1: or worked with in publishing. I've worked for many years

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Speaker 1: as a as a book editor for different houses, both

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Speaker 1: in house and as a freelancer. I wanted something that

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Speaker 1: would represent them. And so Gwendolyn is meant to capture

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Speaker 1: epitomize that in terms of her style, the way she

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Speaker 1: walks through the world, her need for things to be immaculate,

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Speaker 1: just exactly as you said, Mandy, like her badass and

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Speaker 1: this that you just see her walking by and you're

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Speaker 1: like like that girl. Wow. And and then and you know,

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Speaker 1: because of my love for speculative fiction, I had to

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Speaker 1: subvert it. There's going to be waysed in just like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: but there's a reason why she's into this. There's a

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Speaker 1: reason why she's obsessed about these things. It's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: just like, oh, wouldn't it be fun to just have

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Speaker 1: a glamorous woman, But there there's there's some real, uh,

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Speaker 1: childhood stuff that's really been informing her obsession with these things.

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Speaker 1: And so and then Gwenda because her character is holding

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Speaker 1: back a lot of stuff. In the big thing of

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Speaker 1: the book, we also see she's dating this new guy, James,

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Speaker 1: who's really into her, and for some reason, she's feeling

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Speaker 1: like she has hold she has to hold back because

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Speaker 1: she's holding so much back. Her character is a bit

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Speaker 1: of a cipher you you know, she's she's more uh

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Speaker 1: identifying with her work and the things around her and

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Speaker 1: their little clues as to who she really is wearing.

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Speaker 1: Versus Fonsie, who he's just who he is is the page.

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Speaker 1: He's just like like figuring things out. He's just overtly emotional.

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Speaker 1: He's just in the mix. What he's figuring out is

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Speaker 1: what he's figuring out. We are privy to it right away.

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Speaker 1: And so there's a big contrast between the two characters

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Speaker 1: and their journey.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, and it's not immediately clear that they are connected.

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Speaker 2: I mean I kind of anticipated that they would be connected,

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Speaker 2: but I thought they're great foils for one another because

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Speaker 2: they're so like on different ends of the spectrum in

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Speaker 2: terms of the way that they're in the world. I Mean,

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Speaker 2: Phonsie's very so is it too much to say Fansie

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Speaker 2: is a dream walker? Is that the expression?

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Speaker 1: You be sure?

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Speaker 2: Dream trippers?

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Speaker 1: It's been so long since I.

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Speaker 2: Come on now and he drove with the lingo that

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Speaker 2: was one of us. So he's but in his dreams

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Speaker 2: he can visit or not always in his dreams, but

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Speaker 2: he is able to commune with the dead. That is

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Speaker 2: one of his powers, and he kind of low key

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Speaker 2: is doing that in the back room of the shop

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Speaker 2: that he owns. It's a botanica. Did you grow up

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Speaker 2: near a Botanica? Are there still botanicas around?

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Speaker 1: There are many botanica's, okay and so, and they vary now.

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Speaker 1: Some botanicas are still pretty There is one I was

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Speaker 1: at in the Bronx not that long ago, pretty traditional,

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Speaker 1: pretty old school. Another one in Brooklyn, and then there

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Speaker 1: was one in Lower East Side, Manhattan that I've visited

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Speaker 1: for the first time. I'm not even sure if they

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Speaker 1: would coin themselves botanica more like sort of like a

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Speaker 1: new age holistic fusion type space, but I would call

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Speaker 1: call it a botanica. And yeah, they're still around. People

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Speaker 1: are still doing their thing. I you know, wanted to

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Speaker 1: the book. In terms of the spiritual practices that are presented,

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Speaker 1: They're inspired obviously by like the real world and things

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Speaker 1: that really exist, but then the rules for this particular

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Speaker 1: book are its own thing, and so for instance, and

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Speaker 1: then I just wanted to play with the concept of

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Speaker 1: a botanica and anyway, so for Phonsie, his approach is

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Speaker 1: it's much more eclectic, much more holistic, much more kind

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Speaker 1: of new agey and less old school, which would fit

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Speaker 1: into his character. And I also just kind of think

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Speaker 1: that's the reality, if we're honest with ourselves, that's the

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Speaker 1: reality of how we navigate the world. We do hold

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Speaker 1: on to traditions, but it's I would argue, it's almost

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Speaker 1: impossible to live in the modern world and not not

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Speaker 1: fuse those traditions with other things, newer things.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it just seems like it's ripe for gentrification.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't have like a coffee shop in

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Speaker 2: the front with like twelve dollars.

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Speaker 1: Fonzie would be like this, how do I feel about this?

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Speaker 1: Whereas his his associated Robin, they wouldn't have it. They'd

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Speaker 1: be like, oh no, this is oh hell, you know.

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Speaker 1: So so yeah.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about the Lord because it's fun. I'm

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Speaker 2: not actually afro Latina. I have chose my last name.

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Speaker 2: But that's because my husband is Dominican and he grew

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Speaker 2: up in a very like Catholic kind of household. And

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Speaker 2: there's you know, we got our we got so many

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Speaker 2: Mary's and so much Jesus and you know, the big

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Speaker 2: portrait of Jesus over the bed at his parents' house

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Speaker 2: and all that that kind of paraphernalia around. Not too

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Speaker 2: much on spiritual stuff. I'm pretty sure his mom would

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Speaker 2: be not so down with that. But I love it

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Speaker 2: because it gives me more color and more like I

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Speaker 2: feel like it gave much more depth for me to

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Speaker 2: my understanding of like Afro Latina Afro LATINX LATINX culture.

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Speaker 2: So I'd love for you to, you know, tell me

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Speaker 2: a little bit about the spiritual side of it. And

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Speaker 2: did you grow up with that? Was someone teaching you

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Speaker 2: this or were you always kind of like maybe my husband,

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Speaker 2: you know, taught that's not we don't mess with that, So.

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Speaker 1: It was I had sort of interesting you asked that,

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Speaker 1: because I consider myself at this point like to be

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Speaker 1: pretty spiritually eclectic. And how I grew up. I grew

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Speaker 1: up with you know, my mother was in many ways

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Speaker 1: traditionally Christian, if memory serves me correctly, it was part

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Speaker 1: of different Protestant denominations, but she also incorporated. She would

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Speaker 1: go to we would go to the Botanica. She would

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Speaker 1: take me to the Botanica. I would wake up and

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Speaker 1: sometimes she would splash what's called Florida water on my head,

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Speaker 1: on my pillow. Oh yeah, I would. There are the

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Speaker 1: things you were supposed to do to help ward off

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Speaker 1: like evil spirits or if someone wanted to like put

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Speaker 1: something on you. So I grew up. She she actively

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Speaker 1: believed in that as well. I think some of it,

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Speaker 1: you know, my mother had there were some emotional health issues,

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Speaker 1: so I definitely think some of it was was due

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Speaker 1: more from paranoia, But certainly in terms of me just

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Speaker 1: being exposed to some of these traditions, it was there.

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Speaker 1: And so what for the book. I knew a lot

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Speaker 1: of this stuff, and just as someone who is the

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Speaker 1: child of the diaspora, and in terms of my studies

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Speaker 1: in college and my work professionally, I you know, aware

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Speaker 1: of certain belief systems that are derived from West Africa,

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Speaker 1: and so all that to say, I relied on that

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Speaker 1: in terms of the world building for this particular book,

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Speaker 1: I did do additional research, and I even over wrote.

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Speaker 1: At one point my publisher, Shan Troutman, she was like,

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Speaker 1: this is too much.

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Speaker 2: Relate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't watch all of this here.

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Speaker 2: Because I felt like, I We're trying to show our work.

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Speaker 2: We is smart, like.

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Speaker 1: I'm honoring the culture and you know, not being someone

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Speaker 1: who's just taking this stuff lightly. And then after a

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Speaker 1: while we was like, oh, she's right, this is too much.

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Speaker 1: And so that was my process. But again, I also

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Speaker 1: it was a sort of a weird thing in the

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Speaker 1: sense of like, for instance, in terms of your husband's

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Speaker 1: uh leaves still like that's reference the connection between Catholicism

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Speaker 1: and the Saints and their rishas. That's brief, yeah, which

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of people don't realize.

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Speaker 2: You know that Maria means, well, it's not the same

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Speaker 2: as saint, but that's there. There are these des that

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Speaker 2: are looked up to.

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Speaker 1: When people were brought over from the Translantic slave trade

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Speaker 1: to the what would be the America's they found it

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Speaker 1: the Saints. They were useful then to sort of syncretize,

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Speaker 1: to take on you could still maintain your your belief

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Speaker 1: system through the guise of saints, because it would be

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Speaker 1: too dangerous to say I'm worshiping these African deities. But

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Speaker 1: you know, because of the uh, you know, you know

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Speaker 1: so many saints that you can the equivalent to your

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Speaker 1: to Euresha, and so a lot of people don't realize that.

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Speaker 1: And then, you know, part of my process was like, well,

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Speaker 1: how to sort of make reference to that, but that's

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Speaker 1: not technically what the book is about, and so it

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Speaker 1: just had to be referenced and honored, but then keep

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Speaker 1: things moving. And then also the mystical order that finds

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Speaker 1: you belongs to. They're called guardians. I'm saying it in

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Speaker 1: English because my Spanish is so bad. I always think

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Speaker 1: coming and mispronounce everything. Uh, I use Spanish in the

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Speaker 1: book in terms of the title of the group. They

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Speaker 1: have their own system. Like this system is not based

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Speaker 1: on like any real world you know, uh, spiritual group

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Speaker 1: that that that's like fantasy world building type stuff. So

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Speaker 1: it's this, it's this interesting like fusion of sensibilities. And

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Speaker 1: that's my big thing is fusion. Fusion, you can mix

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Speaker 1: it up. You know. The book is deals clearly with

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Speaker 1: real world spiritual traditions, and then some things are completely fantastic.

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Speaker 1: The book is a bit urban fantasy is a bit horror,

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Speaker 1: is a bit romance, is a bit mystery thriller.

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Speaker 2: It actually is more horror than I thought. I shouldn't

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Speaker 2: known when it got sexy earlier, because like horror movies

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Speaker 2: always have sexy stuff. But I was actually listening to

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Speaker 2: it at night. I forget why I couldn't sleep one night,

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Speaker 2: and so I was kind of like cluttering around the

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Speaker 2: kitchen and I had the audio book on and I

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Speaker 2: had I caught myself getting nervous, like getting spooked because

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Speaker 2: I'm like three quarters of the way through, a lot

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Speaker 2: of spooky shit is going down, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: let me press plaus on this until the morning. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: this book is stressing me out, but in a good way.

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Speaker 2: I think it was. It's yeah, it is. I mean

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Speaker 2: it's not over the top, I will say, because I'm

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Speaker 2: not an over the top girl, Like I don't like

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Speaker 2: a lot of like over the top gore and you

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Speaker 2: know that like Quentin Tarantino shit, like a lot of

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Speaker 2: violence in that way. But it's I think it's unsettling

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Speaker 2: because it feels like, oh, this could happen. How many

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Speaker 2: of us know someone who's passed away that has some

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Speaker 2: unfinished business, and we would not want them to come

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Speaker 2: back and find us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the whole, the whole concept, and thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for bringing that up. The whole concept how

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Speaker 1: ghosts are configured in this particular story is that ghosts

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Speaker 1: exist in this place called elentemerio, which is this limbo

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Speaker 1: for for when you're not really ready to fully let

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Speaker 1: go and die and join the ancestors. And the reason

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Speaker 1: why they're stuck is because they they have unfinished business

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Speaker 1: in the real world, because they're they're still you know,

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Speaker 1: they they they don't feel like what was really impacting

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Speaker 1: their life, their soul was resolved, and they're not at peace,

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Speaker 1: and so they're they're they're stuck, and that's it's from

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Speaker 1: this place where Fonsie can communicate with them. And a

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Speaker 1: big theme of the book overall is how the past

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Speaker 1: impacts how we live uh today, how it gets in

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Speaker 1: a way of us being our fully actualized selves, how

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Speaker 1: it can impact how we you desire intimacy, And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm much more interested in sort of the psychological dimension

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Speaker 1: of horror and the supernatural than just being shocking or

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Speaker 1: grotesque for the sake of being shocking or grotesque. That's

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Speaker 1: not as interesting to me as like getting into like

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Speaker 1: the psyche of everything and being like, well, what would

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Speaker 1: be the motivation for these characters and figures and how

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Speaker 1: does that connect to how we live?

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Speaker 2: So yeah, and I mean obviously you've said already that

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Speaker 2: Gwendolen is not who she's presenting herself to be, and

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Speaker 2: that she in a lot of ways she's putting on

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Speaker 2: this persona every day that she has cultivated. You know,

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Speaker 2: she used to study when she was growing up in Panama.

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Speaker 2: She grew up in a shelter, right or not a shelter?

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Speaker 2: What am I trying to say? Where do you put

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Speaker 2: children without families? Orphanage?

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Speaker 1: Sorry?

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Speaker 2: What are the words spoiler?

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Speaker 1: Should we say spoiler? Or the people?

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Speaker 2: You don't gave half the plot away?

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Speaker 1: Why?

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Speaker 2: Is all right? I'll stop there? But she yeah, right,

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Speaker 2: so she in her childhood, she's like, this is we do?

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Speaker 2: We do get a chance to look back, which I

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Speaker 2: appreciate because I want, I like getting back to find

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Speaker 2: net where people come As a mom of small children myself,

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Speaker 2: don't we love a mother wound that it becomes so

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Speaker 2: bad that it almost destroys all of humanity? Gay for moms?

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Speaker 2: But sure, let's go there because you didn't talk about

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Speaker 2: the psychological component and childhood trauma and and how you

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Speaker 2: know innocence as children we can be I don't know

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Speaker 2: if tainted is the right word, but I'm sure it's

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Speaker 2: universally experienced in some way. Everyone has some influences that

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Speaker 2: from caretakers. Potentially a lot of people do caretakers who

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Speaker 2: are meant to, you know, surround us with love and

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Speaker 2: give us protection and all of that. But in Phonsie

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Speaker 2: and Gwendolen's case, we find out that they weren't always

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Speaker 2: protected by their caretaker, in this case their mother figure.

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Speaker 2: And I would love you to talk about that and

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Speaker 2: how that theme is important to the book or why

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Speaker 2: it was important for you to bring that into the book.

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Speaker 1: They're both had childhoods that in many ways were less

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Speaker 1: than ideal. There's a Phonsie's mom who we know as

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Speaker 1: Madina in the book. We get to know her through

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Speaker 1: prologue and flashbacks. She is a character who you begin

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Speaker 1: to realize, oh was powerful, but also was never able

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Speaker 1: to be recognized for her power properly recognized in the

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Speaker 1: way that she wanted to be for her power, for

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Speaker 1: what she could do, and thus felt like her circumstances

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Speaker 1: were very limited, and there was a bitterness that just

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Speaker 1: began to creep into her soul, and that impacted then

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Speaker 1: how she saw herself, how she viewed her place in

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Speaker 1: the world, and perhaps most importantly for the book, how

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Speaker 1: she treated her son and then someone else who comes

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Speaker 1: into their household. And I wanted to I just think

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Speaker 1: we don't as a culture. We don't sit enough with

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Speaker 1: the ways in which we've been hurt during our formative years.

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Speaker 1: Peter Gabriel has a song digging in the dirt, finding

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Speaker 1: places we've been hurt, and I just don't think we

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Speaker 1: do that enough because it's so painful. It just brings

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Speaker 1: up stuff that we'd rather tell ourselves we can move past.

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Speaker 1: But what I would argue is that we end up

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Speaker 1: the decisions we make as adults, we end up doing

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Speaker 1: things that are still connected to the past. We're still

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Speaker 1: figuring out whatever it was we needed to figure out

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Speaker 1: where we're We're still acting as if we could fix

399
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Speaker 1: what went down before by what we do today. And

400
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Speaker 1: I would argue if we were to really people to

401
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Speaker 1: really sit and have a true reckoning with the ship

402
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: they've they've endured, they'd be like, oh, oh, that's what happened.

403
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Speaker 1: Oh I don't need to do X, Y and Z

404
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: any more. That's gone, that's over, and you need to

405
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: grieve and mourn and find support, you know that to

406
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Speaker 1: be a therapist or family or or I know, some

407
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: people's church, whatever. But you have to go through a

408
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Speaker 1: process and then I think you can really see who

409
00:23:54,920 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: you're supposed to to be and little bit more actualized life.

410
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Speaker 1: And so my way of exploring that, I knew what

411
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Speaker 1: the story was going to be, but then I had

412
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Speaker 1: to figure out like how to construct this, you know,

413
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Speaker 1: this speculative fiction, this urban fantasy, hard thing that would

414
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Speaker 1: explore those ideas without like going off the boards, while

415
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Speaker 1: still you know, being the story that it needed to be.

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Speaker 2: So I think that, I mean, I one hundred percent agree.

417
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Speaker 2: I've been talking so much lately about I mean, I've

418
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 2: joked with that in the past. I'm like, it's no

419
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 2: wonder we addicted to our phones and sex and food

420
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: and the internet and TikTok and all this stuff because

421
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 2: we're avoiding feelings. You know, It's like this is really hard.

422
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Speaker 2: I need an escape and we're all just like running

423
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Speaker 2: from them, but they are just I think that's one

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Speaker 2: of the ghosts that we don't like. Isn't necessarily a

425
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Speaker 2: character in the book, But for me, the ghost of

426
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Speaker 2: the trauma and the ghost of pain is very much there.

427
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Speaker 2: And I think one of the tragedy for me of

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Speaker 2: Gwendolen and why I look at Gwendolen and with like

429
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Speaker 2: heaviness because she is obviously a really accomplished and driven character,

430
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: but she also I look forward to getting to know

431
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 2: more about her. I kind of feel like there might

432
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 2: be more books coming, but I don't know, because we

433
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: kind of meet her when she's in full sprint, has

434
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: sprinted away from so much of her childhood, and you

435
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 2: run away from it, and you're you're thinking, like, I'm

436
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 2: in control now, and this is my way of controlling it.

437
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: And even if you know the people who were the

438
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: cause of that pain have passed on or we've cut

439
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 2: them out of our life in some way, it's not

440
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 2: always enough, Like it's not usually enough and so needing

441
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: to but yeah, it can be hard as hell to

442
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 2: like pause your life and grapple with it. I mean,

443
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: Gwendolen had a whole had a whole ghost apocalypse, and finally,

444
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 2: and it's.

445
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: It's complicated, right, because there are things that Gwendolen is

446
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: I would argue she's doing right, like the fact that

447
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: she was able to to sublimate her need for like

448
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: I need to feel beautiful, I need to feel safe,

449
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: I need to feel powerful, and to subblemate that into

450
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: like a really powerful career, into like this this this

451
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 1: uh way of living that in many ways, it's just

452
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: like wow, I I give her all the props, you know,

453
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: But then there are ways in which and when you

454
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 1: find out like who you know Uh she really is

455
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: and and what to where Arisia she's connected to you

456
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: and how her her power works. Once you realize all

457
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: of that, then it begins to be like, oh, but

458
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: this isn't this isn't really fully who she is. So

459
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: how is she dealing with not embracing all these other

460
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: things about herself? And then even just on a purely

461
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: practical level, I would argue she's still she doesn't even

462
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 1: realize some of the decisions she's making are being impacted

463
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: by the past. There's no reason it's revealed that at

464
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: some at one point she leaves New York and she

465
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: decides to come back. There's no reason for her to

466
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: come back. She could have gone anywhere else in the

467
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: United States, tried to leave America, but yet she chose

468
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: to come back to a place where so much of

469
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: what she went through as a teenager particularly was unresolved.

470
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: And I say that's because she knows she's still fit.

471
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: Anything ab out it's still calling her. So it's I

472
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: think these things are so complex, and we do the

473
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: best that we can. It's often a mixed bad. I

474
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: often feel like people do figure out ways in which

475
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: to thrive on some level, but then there's often something

476
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: that's still impacting us living our best life, which I

477
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: think I imagine you must deal with a lot in terms

478
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: of your work and your clients and the stories that

479
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: you hear.

480
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think we're all carrying also we're carrying

481
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: a lot of doubt. But we're also carrying some of

482
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: that doubt is like shame as well like and I

483
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: do think shame comes into the book as well. Gwendolen's

484
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 2: got some shame from, you know, some of the activities

485
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: she was exposed to as a kid and maybe felt

486
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: like she took some part in. And if there's unresolved

487
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: shame around something that happened to women like, whether it's

488
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: you know, in their personal lives or in their careers

489
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: or typically the women that I work with through my

490
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 2: career coaching, it's like a lot of shame around where

491
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 2: they wish they had, wish they were, or the version

492
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: of themselves that they want to be, and they're sort

493
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: of like using that like an anti saint. They create

494
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: an altar for this version of themselves that they think

495
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 2: should exist, and they're like always comparing themselves to that,

496
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: and it's really damaging and it's very limiting in a way.

497
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: I'm obviously not a psychologist, but a lot of the

498
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: work I do, it ain't about resumes and cover letters.

499
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: It's about before you, like, what could be holding you

500
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: back from you know, feeling good about your career or

501
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: feeling good about you know, where you're at in life.

502
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: Is this idea that you're not already where you need

503
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 2: to be and that you you know, you can't accept

504
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 2: and love exactly where you are right now. It's really

505
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: hard and I'm not I'm not immune to that either,

506
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: but it's really really hard. And when you don't, when

507
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: you're not able to do that and accept where you are,

508
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: you may feel like you're achieving things and move into

509
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: the world, but it actually can be holding you back

510
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways because you're not fully open,

511
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: Like you're not fully open and you don't fully love

512
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 2: and appreciate and accept everything about yourself. And that's toward

513
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: the end of the book there is there's a line

514
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 2: where Gwendolen is asking herself. She's like, is this what

515
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: it feels like to come out?

516
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think, you know. I think it's funny you

517
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: say that because I've I've dealt with that as well.

518
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: I think I'm doing, you know, well in my my career.

519
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: But I do sometimes have this feeling of like, oh,

520
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: should I have certain things? Should I have focused on

521
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: this earlier? Should I focus on this earlier? What did

522
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: I What was I doing before? What was I searching for?

523
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: What got in the way? And I do think there

524
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: I do think, you know, in retrospect, I'm like, oh, okay,

525
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: there are certain ways in which I could have given

526
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: myself more agency in terms of handling X, Y and Z.

527
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: But simultaneously, I would say, in terms of certain experiences

528
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: I've had, it's what worked for me, you know, at

529
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: the time, and trying not to be so hard on myself. Particularly.

530
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: I tell people, you know, I'm a very hard worker

531
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: now and like a seven days a week work type

532
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: of guy. And people like, oh, Clarence, are is that

533
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: okay for you? I'm like, no, No, I used to

534
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: be on the streets all the time, club all the time.

535
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: I had my fun.

536
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: I'm the thing. It's time for me now, and I'm like, okay,

537
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: so this is my this is my journey, you know

538
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: where I definitely got to party and play uh for

539
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: for a while, and then like okay, and now it's time. Now,

540
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: it's time to be serious and focus.

541
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 2: Put on that newsboy cap, get to work. Well, talk

542
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: to me. You do get into like the scene, the

543
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 2: dating scene, like modern queer dating scene in New York City?

544
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: Why was that important for you to incorporate into the book?

545
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: That was important to incorporate into the book because I

546
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: think I probably I needed to like just get some

547
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: of my experiences on the page.

548
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: Hold on, via fam We're going to be right back

549
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: right before Clarence spills some of that tea about the

550
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 2: dating scene in NYC. Stay tuned more with Clarence Haynes,

551
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: the author of the Ghost of Gwenda La Montgomery Brown

552
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: Ambition's August September book club pick. Go cop your copy

553
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: right now. Go to bookshop dot org check our show

554
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: notes for a length to purchase your copy, and we'll

555
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: be right back with more Brown Ambitions soon.

556
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: You know. I think that the New York UH dating scene,

557
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: and it's certainly changed over the years. It's it's it

558
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: looks very different now than what it was before the

559
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: time of apps and and you know social media and

560
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: how that impacts how dudes date each other. But I

561
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: just think there's often a certain level of uh callousness,

562
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: and I think how to balance, you know, in terms

563
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: of being part of the gay queer seeing your need

564
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: to explore ones need to explore and connect and be

565
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: expressed and sort of I call it gay orb and

566
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: schmortgagh board at one at one point and indulge in

567
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: that because because one can, and and I do think

568
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: it's important to experience pleasure. But I think at the

569
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: same time, then we also have to remember we're human beings.

570
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: We have feelings. As much as we'd like to think.

571
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: I think a lot of men think that can just

572
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: compartment compartmentalize sex and intimacy, and I don't think that's

573
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: the case your you're everything is connected, and so after

574
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: a while we do have to to sit with like, oh, well,

575
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with other human beings and if we're just

576
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: seeing each other as just nothing but bodies, what does

577
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: that do to you? To you after a time, I

578
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: think then you have to sort of step back and

579
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: see how is this really working? Is this really what

580
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: I want? And in Fonsi's case, Fonzi is just yearning

581
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: to just for care and intimacy.

582
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: And a haircut.

583
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, just some old foolsland just to be with his man,

584
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: and doesn't feel like he has the voice to really

585
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: stand in that. And I think that's a I think

586
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: that's a common thing. Can speak from personal experience, that's

587
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: a that's a thing in New York where how do

588
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: you decide, no, this is the type of experience I want.

589
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: Even if you're surrounded by other dudes who just want

590
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 1: to like hit it, quit it, go onto the next

591
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: or you know, have they're they're uh, sort of more

592
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: impersonal multive intimacy.

593
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, one of my closest friends is a black

594
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 2: queer man. And oh my god, if you think, ladies,

595
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 2: you think we got a bad dealing with these straight dudes.

596
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: I'm just talking about the stories he would tell me. Yikes.

597
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a it's a it's sometimes it's it's

598
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: sometimes like no, like you just something like no, we're

599
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: not gonna We're not going to do this. Like, let's

600
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 1: take a moment and talk about let's analyze the language

601
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: you're using here, what you're like like literally, yeah, I've

602
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: had days experiences where I've had to say like, no,

603
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: that's not acceptable. This is what you And I'm like okay,

604
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: and this is another grown human being and they sort

605
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: of get quiet and they sort of are like, oh,

606
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, I guess what he's saying is true.

607
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, wow, no one's ever told me

608
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: that before.

609
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really it's really interesting. I think I just

610
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 1: think it's I think it's fascinating, and I think it's

611
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: really weird. You know, the New York uh dating, gay dating,

612
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 1: sexyed It's really I just think a lot of people

613
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: just need to stop and take a moment. Like again, like,

614
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to to enjoy,

615
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: but I think there's a way that where a lot

616
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: of people aren't recognizing our humanity and that that experience

617
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: that then leads to just pain and you know a

618
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: lot of hurt feelings and a lot of emotional isolation.

619
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, so's it's been. It's been interesting to

620
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 1: observe to me as a writer or like to sometimes

621
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: be part of the scene, but then also having to observe.

622
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: So I'm somewhat removed. It's an interesting feeling.

623
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: So well, are you currently dating? Are you single? Pringle?

624
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 2: You booed up? So yeah, that's yeah, working through some stuff. Well,

625
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 2: can we talk about your career for a sec switch

626
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 2: a little year? So I think you know, the number

627
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: of people who say they want to write a novel

628
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 2: is probably a gajillion times bigger than the Library of Congress.

629
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 2: Not everybody actually write, sits down and does it. And

630
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: you've actually you've been in the publishing world. You've been

631
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: editing for years and years, but you've also written. So

632
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: can you talk a little bit about your journey on

633
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 2: that career path and how you sort of made it

634
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: work for yourself?

635
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: Sure, So I started, I actually started as an in

636
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: house associate editor at Random House before was Pengrian for

637
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: the merger before it became Penguin Random House.

638
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: Tony Morrison's All Stomping Grounds Tony Marson.

639
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: So Tony Marson is not just a literary hero of

640
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: mine in terms of her actual writing, in terms of

641
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: her career arc like Tony Marson, I started off as

642
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: a Random House editor.

643
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: Her book writer, or not her book, but a book

644
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: about her Tony at Random.

645
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: And so I, you know, for years, I just thought

646
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: like I took a break at one point and then

647
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: went into I modeled for a bit and went to

648
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: the performing arts world. I always freelance as an editor

649
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: for the book of my career, and so I thought

650
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: that would be my thing. And then increasingly I was like, well,

651
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: I think I actually have something to say, and I wrote.

652
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: I was asked to write a short nonfiction book about

653
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: the history of Jim Crow Laws in America for middle

654
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: grade and high high school readers. And then I think

655
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: where things really took off was when I was asked

656
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 1: to be co writer for Omar's young adult apple futurist

657
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: series Nubia.

658
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: And so those are so different. So you wrote a

659
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 2: Jim Crow textbook for.

660
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: Very It wasn't there was very like small, like like

661
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: thin Jim Crow a book and then yeah, and then.

662
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: Okay, hopefully not too small. I'm great about Mike. I'm

663
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: gonna be the way I'm going to be reading my

664
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: son's textbooks. Like that's not good enough.

665
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: Well, it was very The Jim Crow book was very

666
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: much like this is like we're it's like sort of

667
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: taking a topic and a very narrow focus, so it's

668
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: easily digestible.

669
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: That was I understand, gotcha, And so how do you

670
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: go from that to fantasy?

671
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 1: My my real passion was it's always been speculative fiction,

672
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: and so what.

673
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: Does that mean speculative fiction?

674
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: Speculative fiction means anything where there's that involves a fantastic

675
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: So anything that is like sci fi, fantasy, horror, para

676
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: normal stuff. Speculative fiction is a huge umbrella term to

677
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: encompass all of those genres. And that's always been I

678
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: think that's always been my jam. Even when I was

679
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: in House at Random House the imprint, I worked for

680
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: Harlem Moon and we just our particular division, we weren't

681
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: able to I wasn't able to like acquire books that

682
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: were sci fi, fantasy, speculative fiction oriented. But that's always

683
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: been my love. And yeah, so once opportunity came to

684
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: to work with Omar and it's just known like, oh,

685
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: that's his jam, he'll he'll be a good fit, you know,

686
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: for this particular type of book. Then that was really

687
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: what launched me then into being becoming known as a

688
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: writer in addition to being an editor. And it was

689
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: it was something that was just very fradual. It's a

690
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: little bit different from me in the sense of the

691
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: opportunities that have come my way happened almost more organically

692
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: because I was known in the industry already, so it's

693
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 1: I didn't have to like do sort of like an

694
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: outside agent. Entry is taking me around, introducing me to

695
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 1: different publishing houses for the deal. Like people just kind

696
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: of knew no, oh yeah, we know Clarence, Yes, he'd

697
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: be good for that. Can we can we just ask

698
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: him just get a concept?

699
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 2: Did that make your journey into like your first well,

700
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 2: first you had the other owner Ibspream, but when it

701
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 2: came to shopping around ghost of Gwendola Montgomery, which is

702
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: very different. I mean that's your byline. You know, you're

703
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 2: you're well not byline, but you know what I mean,

704
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: your name on the book. Do you feel like that

705
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 2: made it a little bit easier. Did you feel like

706
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: you were you know, a bit was it more stressful,

707
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 2: like pitching.

708
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: Your own easier? And so? And you should also know

709
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: I didn't technically shop shop it around. I came up

710
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: the idea with Krashan and so we oh, fun, okay, yeah,

711
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: yeah yeah.

712
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 2: So you and k Shan knew each other before all this,

713
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: and you're like, so I have an idea. Okay, that's nice.

714
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: Freelance editing work for Legacy Lit. And so they wanted

715
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: to start doing fiction. And Kashan was looking at Mexican

716
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: gothic Sylvia Marina Garcia, and she was like, some of

717
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: you know, some of this, some sci fi fantasy stuff.

718
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: This is out there for me. But I get this,

719
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: I like party wanted and I was like, I could

720
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: do that.

721
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: You're like taking down notes.

722
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: I have an idea. So yeah, so it wasn't even

723
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: a really a shopping around process. My journey's not typical

724
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: outside of because even most people how they enter Park publishing,

725
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: it's they worked their way up from editorial assistance this

726
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: as an editor to associate bad lad blah, and I

727
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: came in. I actually was working in educational publishing at

728
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: a nonprofit and then someone my future boss. She could

729
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: see just sort of like how the skills that I

730
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,959
Speaker 1: already had would be applicable to the publishing publishing world

731
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: and was fine hiring me. So it's been a My

732
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 1: journey is not typical, though I do feel comfortable saying

733
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: for anyone who's interested in the publishing world and making

734
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: your way, it's really really, really about relationships and really

735
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: having solid professional relationships, being someone who's seen as reliable.

736
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,760
Speaker 1: You don't have to be perfect. I think most people

737
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,919
Speaker 1: will allow for you know, we're all human, but really

738
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: really just carving a path for yourself where you're just

739
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 1: known for doing quality work and for being someone that

740
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 1: people really enjoy working with and a lot of doors

741
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: open as a result.

742
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: So just don't be an asshole. I've been trying to.

743
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: Tell you, but it's weird, but it's hard lot.

744
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 2: I mean, be an asshole if you have to be,

745
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 2: if someone's trying to play you, yes, sometimes you have

746
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: to be there. But you got to have some good relationships.

747
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 2: For me, especially in the publishing world, I bet you

748
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: work with some authors or do you get to be

749
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: more anonymous?

750
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: You know, I get to I will say, fortunately, knock

751
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: on Wood, knock on Wood. The most of the authors

752
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 1: I've worked with have been a joy. I've been very fortunate.

753
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: I've had a couple and it's been weir and not

754
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: even say probably the two that were most difficult, it

755
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: had a lot more to do with you know, it's

756
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: interesting we're talking about like psychological uh pain and trauma.

757
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: I think it's just like what they were working on

758
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,439
Speaker 1: brought up like hard stuff for them and they didn't

759
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: know how to handle it in the process.

760
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not Oh, I feel that.

761
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so there's one one author he was there

762
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: working into the wee. I was trying to get the

763
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: thing together, and he said he was having a breakdown, and.

764
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 2: I was like, oh yeah, oh my god.

765
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: It's it's it's challenging in that way. And then sometimes

766
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's just helping writers, you know, I guess

767
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: be professional is just really uh, helping them understand the

768
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 1: parameters of the business and what's appropriate protocol. One writer

769
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: once started to call me General Haynes. Really I'm like me,

770
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: but it was I was still talking like okay, no, no, no,

771
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: this is not you cannot do that.

772
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 2: I mean your voice does I mean, if you wanted

773
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 2: to cause play as like Denzel from the Titans to

774
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 2: do that.

775
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,439
Speaker 1: I saw myself in an interview recently that I think

776
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: went well. I just was I told Kashan, I was like, oh,

777
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: but I just looked a little serious. She's like, no, no,

778
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: you look professional. I was like, it was just weird

779
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: for me to I don't I see myself much more.

780
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: Was like, and it's weird for me to see myself.

781
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: Like, well, we all can we contain multitudes? Can't be

782
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 2: at all? I mean you are in this new era.

783
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 2: I mean you are, I know you. You and Cibo

784
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 2: did a talk. Where was it was that the James

785
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 2: ballwood Stromberg? Oh the strong? Okay, no big deal. How

786
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 2: has that been for you? Do you think? And career wise?

787
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 2: Does anything change now that you have a published novel?

788
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 2: You still editing around the clock.

789
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 1: I am editing around the clock. So today, Mandy, I

790
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: have to get some very late pages to one of

791
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,919
Speaker 1: my authors, a mystery through the author I've I've done

792
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: a lot of editing work with I'm very relate. And

793
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: then I literally will probably spend all the rest of

794
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: the day just returning emails and texts, just because what

795
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: the challenge has been I have a wonderful I've been

796
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: having a wonderful publishing experience, and that I have the

797
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: full support of my publisher and my imprint and the house.

798
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 1: And so where the a lot of the work has

799
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: come in is just the outside world because I'm centering

800
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: it's a book that's centering a black woman, a glamorous,

801
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: powerful black woman, and it's it's expecuative fiction. There's a

802
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: lot of like what is this? You know, the orders

803
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,280
Speaker 1: weren't as big as if I was, you know, doing

804
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 1: sort of more eurocentric uh work. And so the work

805
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,879
Speaker 1: now has just been just really getting the word out

806
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: there and so making lots and lots of tour stops,

807
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: doing lots of events, doing lots of discussions, and I

808
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 1: adore it and I'm loving it. And then so the

809
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: big change, to answer your question, has been how to

810
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: balance all of this with then my other work. So

811
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: that that's been the that's been the that's been the big.

812
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 2: It's a good problem to have.

813
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 1: It is it is, and I'm not I'm not complaining.

814
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 2: I think the it's you can complain it's a problem,

815
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 2: but it's also like it's it's as someone who is

816
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 2: preparing mentally for the book launch that for the book

817
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 2: that I need to finish, it'll happen. I want to

818
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:44,839
Speaker 2: have this problem, but I also have to anticipate that

819
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 2: because it's like, you know, it's like you said, you

820
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 2: look at the book cover. You know there's no hiding

821
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 2: who this book is about. You know, I thought that.

822
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 2: I mean, the cover are beautiful, by the way, wonderful.

823
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: That is all Krashan and designer uh Danielle and art

824
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: Extraordinaiyu Natasha cunning Here. I had very little. I just

825
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: gave the idea and like a general and then they

826
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 1: just they just took it. And I said, I'm going

827
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: to get out of the way, y'all because the target

828
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: you need to do what you think.

829
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 2: Looks inspired a whole altar. Well, I wish we had

830
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 2: more time. I want to keep talking to you. Well,

831
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,399
Speaker 2: now we're friends, so the trapped you, you're my friend,

832
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 2: not to come busy you, but.

833
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 1: You're gonna you're gonna have them the same same things

834
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: are going to come up. What I would say is

835
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: it's good. I think now I kind of know, like okay,

836
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: there just takes a certain level of intention in terms

837
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 1: of and I think you're you're better. I know you're

838
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: better at this than I am in terms of like

839
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: how to configure the day, what how to schedule things,

840
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: how to sort of have everything be in their place.

841
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: I I I wasn't uh quite as prepared as I

842
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: should have been. And so I'm getting a lot better

843
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: with with figuring all of that out.

844
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 2: So I mean, you got to learn as you go.

845
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: And by the time the next how many more novels

846
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 2: do you think is this going to be? I know

847
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 2: it's giving series, but how many do you think?

848
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: I can't say come on now, I.

849
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 2: Don't want to give it away, but you know, you know,

850
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 2: I just.

851
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 1: Come on.

852
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 2: I love a little a little twisty twist at the end.

853
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 2: Come on dot dot Okay, fine, Clarenceines, thank you so

854
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 2: much for joining Brown Edition b A fam Go pick

855
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 2: up your copies. Publishers won't be publishing these books if

856
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: we don't go buy them. But not just out of

857
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: a sense of you know, I have to do this

858
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: or I should do this. Do it out of a

859
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,919
Speaker 2: sense of this is a damn good book, and it's

860
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 2: a very it's a it's a page turner, it is

861
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 2: a finish in a weekend and then talk about it

862
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 2: for the next two months of your life. Kind of book.

863
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 2: Congratulate Clarence. Thank you so much for sharing with Brown Ambition.

864
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me Mandy. This is

865
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: an absolute delight.

866
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you awesome all right, and nowhere can

867
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 2: be a fan. Find you on the internet streets.

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00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: I am on Clarence A. I am on Instagram at

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00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: Clarence A. Haynes, so just my name without any period spaces.

870
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 1: I'm particularly very responsive on and staff, but then I'm

871
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: also on threads and Facebook and Blue Sky. But yeah,

872
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 1: just just look for me and if and I do

873
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: respond to messages, it just sometimes will take me a

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00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: couple of days because of my schedule.

875
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 2: But thank but do send him a shout. We need

876
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 2: all the support and leave reviews. Don't even DM if

877
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: you're going to DM him, stop it. Go to Amazon

878
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 2: and leave a review, Go to good Reads and leave

879
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 2: a review. We need it, all right. Thank you, Clarence.

880
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 2: Congratulations on the book, and good luck on many many

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00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: more months of promoting it. To come mhmm and be

882
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 2: a fan. Until next time. Take care, Bye,