WEBVTT - Building the Conversation 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.440 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to Woke, a f daily 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:19.120 with Meet your Girl Danielle Moody. Recording from the Brooklyn Bunker. Folks, 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:22.880 I'm excited about today's Woke Wednesday conversation with our in 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.680 house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. Last week, if you remember, 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:32.720 we were engaging in conversation around couples therapy and how 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:37.479 we as a society have lost the ability to have conversation. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:42.120 It's not modeled, right. We often talk about diplomacy as 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:45.840 we refer to our actions abroad, but we're not talking 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:50.800 about how the two parties, Democrats and Republicans come to 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:54.120 the table. But we're also not talking about how we 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:59.520 have uncomfortable conversations ones that you know, we may not 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.680 come to an agreement at the end, but it gets 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:06.440 us somewhere. It has us understand each other better. And 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.160 at a time when our country is becoming increasingly polarized 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:14.360 by the millisecond, it's really important for us to start 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:18.160 to figure out, well, what do we do next? If 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.680 you have the Republican Party, for instance, that has decided 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:26.760 through the RNC that a coup attempt is normal political 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.679 discourse and so they're not going to pay attention to 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.840 anything moving forward if that's their thing. And then you 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.600 have democrats believing that what they can offer is just 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.399 you know, sympathy, empathy. Let me try and be your 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:44.479 best friend from across the aisle. Let me flatter you 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.960 with talking about what an honorable person you are. And 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.520 if that doesn't work, then what will? And I think 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:57.640 oftentimes we actually place too much responsibility on our representatives, 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:02.560 on celebrities, on people that are bigger than we are, 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:05.320 because we think that they should be better. But the 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.400 fact is, have you seen anybody over the course of 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:11.880 the last two years, four years, five years for that matter, 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:17.520 showcasing modeling for the world how we engage in difficult conversation. No, 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.680 what we are seeing is just if white people are uncomfortable, 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.720 then we need to shut down every bit of conversation 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.839 that has to do with America's real origination story, right, 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:34.519 real origin story. That if white people are uncomfortable with 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:38.080 trans children playing on sports teams, then we need to 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.800 eliminate trans kids from being able to play on sports teams. 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.760 That instead of us figuring out how we get to 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:51.360 some place of mutual respect, mutual understanding, that we have 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:55.840 just decided to just give up. And what's really important 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:59.440 right now, I think in this conversation that Jonathan and 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.519 I have to sided to engage in, frankly, is modeling 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:09.040 what isn't being taught right and how we come to 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:11.000 the table. And I'm not saying that this is going 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:15.480 to work with people who don't believe in reason, right 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:20.560 who don't want to have reasonable conversation, or really that 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.680 you don't want to engage in in conversation with them. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:26.480 But at the end of the day, if we're going 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:30.600 to coexist in society, then we are going to have 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.400 to find a way to get through to one another. 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.000 It isn't your you know, the rabbit of right wing 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:41.440 isn't going to be able to lock up silence every 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.480 single person in this country that is a dissenter. I 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:46.480 know that that is what they would like to do, 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.080 and that is their you know, neo nazi, fascist, you 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:56.760 know fantasy, But that's not going to happen. On my side, 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.560 the progressive side, I'm coming to the realization that we're 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.880 never going to eradicate white supremacy, that it is too 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.680 embedded in the fabric and the function of this society 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:12.280 that we need to instead of having conversations about eradication, right, 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.600 that there needs to be more conversation around education and 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.360 what it means to protect ourselves. And I don't mean 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:23.839 just the talk that black parents and brown parents need 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:27.080 to have with their young children in order to make 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.559 sure that they stay safe in school and stay safe 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:32.360 on the streets, and stay safe while they're driving from 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:36.640 white predators, whether they have a badge or not. That 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:41.080 there needs to be more than that, right, And so 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:49.760 we are living in really precarious, frustrating, aggressive, polarizing, exhausting times. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.760 Giving up isn't an option, right, So then what do 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:58.640 we do? So my conversation today coming up next with Jonathan, 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:03.360 we're going to attle right how you have conversations. He's 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:07.080 going to offer one tactic right that you all can 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:10.760 practice this week, this weekend, whether it be with family members, 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:16.560 your significant others, children, your boss, your colleagues, and figuring 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:21.960 out how we move past stalemate situations or the desire 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:27.040 to just be right right and get to a better place. 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:31.520 And I can offer this. You know, before I was divorced, 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:37.280 my ex wife and I also went through couples therapy 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:41.279 and this was years prior to the divorce taking place, 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:46.040 and I found it helpful. I found the techniques helpful 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:50.720 not only in hearing her, but also being able to 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:55.360 apply those couple therapy tactics in terms of mirroring what 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.000 people are saying. Am I getting this right? Allowing people 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:04.040 to speak for uninterrupted, really listening, not listening for a retort, 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:07.080 but listening so that then you can mirror back and 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.479 reflect back what you think you heard the person say, 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:13.760 and then allow them the ability to be able to say, no, 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.600 that actually isn't what I said. What I said was X, 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:22.479 and then again going back, Okay, I'm absorbing that is 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.920 this is what I heard you say? Is this correct? Yes? Okay? 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.359 And then you move from there and you build the 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.719 conversation from there. And I found it very helpful to 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.280 use not only in my personal life outside of the 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.360 confines of my marriage, but also in my professional life, 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:41.920 because at the end of the day, what is it 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:46.679 that people really want? What do humans want? We want 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.400 to know that we are heard, We want to know 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.000 that we are seen, We want to know that we 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:57.479 are valued. Right, those are like the three basics that 0:06:57.560 --> 0:06:59.800 if you can get to that place, like when we 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:06.880 talk about equity, when we talk about creating space at 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:12.000 the table for other people's voices. It is because people 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:17.400 of color, black people, Latin X people, Asian, the Pacific 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:26.320 Islanders folks, API folks, we have been invisibilized right from 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:31.920 the American story. We have been invisibilized from the narrative, 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:37.680 and that is mirrored back to us in the content 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:42.160 that we consume on a myriad of platforms. Also coming 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.080 down from Hollywood, who is the leading part, who is 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:49.240 the leading man, quote unquote, who's the leading woman, quote unquote, 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:53.520 who is labeled the sexiest person alive, the most beautiful? 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:58.120 We have started to see bits and pieces of progress, 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.760 right like we saw in our politics with the election 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.760 of Obama, but then the regression and the backlash that 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.800 we're experiencing now. To hearken back to Jim Crow years, 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:12.400 it's the same thing that we see in a in 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:17.480 an aesthetic way. Years ago, we were having a conversation 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:21.920 around the Oscars thanks to April Rain tweeting out hashtag 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:26.320 oscar so White for the Academy to have some self 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:30.320 examination as to what it is that they are awarding, 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:35.959 right like, who is judging, who is doing the judging, 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.400 what does the criteria look like, and then come to 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:43.199 find out that, of course a majority of the form press, 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.920 the Foreign Association are white men above the age of 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.480 sixty years old. So you think that they're going to 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:54.359 be looking at black and brown content creators, directors, producers, 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:58.839 artists and saying that they value that. No, they're fucking 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:05.320 not so there. Sometimes it is necessary for us to 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:09.880 do a call out right, to call attention to how 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:16.280 discrimination works, right, how invisibilizing groups of people work, how 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.160 gaslighting works. But then there are other times when we 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.640 want to do a call in where we want to 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.240 bring people to the table to be able to have 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:32.640 to raise consciousness, to also raise vibrational levels right, so 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.280 that we can get to a place where I don't 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.000 want to just assume the worst out of you. But 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:42.880 I also need you, whether you are a voting member 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:47.840 of the Academy, whether you are a jobs recruiter or 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.640 a college recruiter, I need you to be a lot 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.560 more intentional. I need you to create rubrics and to 0:09:54.720 --> 0:10:00.360 create a more expanded idea of what acceptance right looks 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:05.040 like and recognize that there is value in diversity, not 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:09.160 just for the quote unquote aesthetic of rainbowing things up 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:13.360 right on its face, but not creating the scaffolding and 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:20.000 the culture that will support diverse people and voices and perspectives. 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.800 Because again, what is it that people want, regardless of 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:30.920 their race, ethnicity, religion, orientation, gender identity, and beyond. They 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:32.960 want to be seen, they want to be heard, and 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:37.800 they want to be valued. Right, So can we agree 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.000 to those three things, and then can we then have 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:46.600 open debate and conversation about the ways in which we 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:52.680 have set up a society that disallows those diverse voices 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:58.000 to have the same effect, weight, and engagement in our 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:03.000 mainstream discourse, regardless of what the topics are. So I 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:07.520 feel that in you, in these conversations that Jonathan and 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.400 I are having now and are hoping to model for 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:14.800 all of you, that instead of just marinating in the misery, 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.680 instead of just ticking off the latest headlines of things 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.760 that are wrong, that what we are beginning to realize 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:23.640 is that at the core of what is wrong is 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:27.800 our lack of communication with one another. And then when 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:32.120 they are added in forces that are at play that 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:38.040 are working purposefully to keep everyone isolated, angry, and operating 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:43.240 on one hundred and above right, that there is monetary 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:47.640 value in that, right, that people are making money off 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.320 of your rage, making money off of your pain and 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.400 your grief. Right, those are real conversations to be had 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:59.800 because you know, Jonathan will say in our interview that 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:04.800 the algorithm is the algorithms that we are all confined within, 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.840 whether you're using Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or what 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:12.240 have you. The algorithms are set up so that the 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:16.520 anger you become, right, the more that you're seeing content 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:21.880 that subscribes to that emotion. That that's what keeps people 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.320 on the devices, on the platforms and readily engaged. And 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:32.240 there is no desire to offer proof to something else. Right, 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:37.760 So I think that, folks, it's really truly important for 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:42.880 us to recognize that we are trapped in a cycle 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:49.240 of trauma, right, that living in America these days, the 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:55.719 past half a decade has been incredibly fucking traumatizing, and 0:12:55.840 --> 0:13:02.040 that there is no pressure that is being released. It 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:06.280 is just continuing to circulate and grow and grow and 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:12.680 grow and metastasize. And so if our leaders, right, if 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:19.120 our representatives are not going to model good behavior, are 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:25.040 not going to model appropriate discourse, discourse that moves us through, 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:29.840 not around issues right, not pretending that everything is is 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:34.000 willy nilly and perfect, but that actually seeks to expand 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:38.120 our understanding and move us through. If that's not being modeled, 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:40.800 then we need to figure out what else it is 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.880 that we are going to do. Because things are not 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.760 going to get better by us pretending that they are better. 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:50.160 They're not going to get better by us banning our 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:55.080 way to neutrality. So what else is there? And I 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.960 think that these are going to be increasingly important conversations 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.120 that Jonathan and I are going to be having, and 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.439 we will bring other people in to the conversation to 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:10.959 see how these tactics can actually work in the political sphere, 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:16.800 and hopefully we can begin in this small way to 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:22.240 start to offer solutions rather than just teasing out more 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:26.280 of the problems. So that's something that I am excited 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.240 about and I'm looking forward to. And after you listen 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.320 to this week's Woke Wednesday interview with Jonathan, do tell 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.240 me in the comments section about whether or not you 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.880 think that these tactics will or will not work if 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.320 you're open to trying them, and then sharing whether you 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.040 DM me or tweet at both Jonathan and I or 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:51.200 sharing the comment section again with others about trying some 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.000 of these things out and seeing how they land, and 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.720 again giving ourselves some grace and those around us to 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:02.240 understanding this is not a a quick fix, right. This 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:06.960 actually requires a lot more work and intentionality on all 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.480 of our parts. And I think that that is an 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.960 important space for us to be in and to consider 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:17.040 to be in, because if we don't start taking these issues, 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:20.360 these problems that we're facing, bit by bit, if we're 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:25.440 not making them bite size, then we're going to choke, right, 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:31.520 and it's just going to feel like too much. So, folks, 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:37.200 coming up next is my conversation with our friend woke 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:44.240 Wednesday guest doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know that whenever 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.480 we have the opportunity to talk with our in house 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:50.600 doctor every single week, doctor Jonathan Metzel, we are always 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:55.360 very excited and appreciative of your time. You know, last week, Jonathan, 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.800 I was really I left our conversation feeling really good, 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.200 which has not been the case when we are always 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:07.040 going down the rabbit hole of you know, really emotionally 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:12.560 charged topics like gun violence, like COVID, and so I 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.720 wanted to pick up on where we left off last week, 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.880 when we're talking about conversation and the art of conversation 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.040 and how the point is like, if we're let's say 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.080 we're talking about foreign affairs in the United States, we 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.520 are talking about diplomacy, Where does diplomacy come from? It 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:33.440 comes from conversation? Last week at the end of at 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.720 the end of last week, you had the Republican the 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:41.480 Republican Party issue a proclamation through the RNC that said 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:48.320 that January sixth, according to them, was normal political discourse. Right. 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:52.200 So if that is what we are dealing with, right, 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:57.840 a party that believes that breaking into the Capitol building, 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.960 harming people violence is normal political discourse, how do we 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.639 get back? How do we even engage Jonathan in a 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.760 way where we are going to talk to one another 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.000 when this is what they are identifying as the norm. 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:16.919 What I liked about our conversation last week was that 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.920 we used couple's therapy as a metaphor, which I think 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:21.920 is a useful metaphor because a lot of times in 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.720 couples therapy, what you learn is instead of somebody says 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:27.840 something that you don't agree with, and instead of saying 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.440 I don't agree with that you say, let me hear, 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:33.879 let me hear what I let let me try to 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.919 articulate what I hear you saying, or you know that 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.720 you're not talking somebody out of something they're saying. Instead, 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:42.719 you're trying to say, let me see if I can 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.280 understand why you feel that way, Let me see if 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:47.400 I can articulate that. Tell me if I get this right. 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:53.040 And that's kind of the basis of conflict negotiation related 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.919 conversation a lot of times is the idea that you 0:17:55.920 --> 0:18:00.560 can basically acknowledge somebody else's point of view, even if 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:02.800 it's something you completely don't agree with. At least the 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.080 starter is like, yeah, you know, tell me more, Tell 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.000 me more about why you don't trust modern medicine. Tell 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.000 me why you think something I mean, think of someone you. 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.520 Tell me why you think ivermectin might be helpful, like 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.520 something we just you know, wouldn't maybe not agree with automatically, 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:20.360 but but instead we get into this point where we're 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.240 doing exactly a thing you're not supposed to do in 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:26.240 couples therapy, which is you talk you try to talk 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.680 somebody out of, try to talk somebody out of a 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.000 position that they feel really deeply about and when you 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:35.120 think about like the frameworks in which American political discourse happens, 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.480 or just everyday discourse, how many places are there where 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:40.960 you can even have that kind of conversation, which is 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.760 really hard conversation. The whole the whole world is set 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.160 up to not have that conversation. So Twitter now has 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.480 a down button where you can just block out conversations 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:57.720 that you find disagreeable. Schools on many sides are trying 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:06.560 to eliminate content they find um, you know, um um displeasure, yeah, 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:11.639 and so um and so um you know. So in 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.760 a way, we're losing the skill set to do that, right, 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:16.919 I mean so in a way. Part of the issue 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.800 is how can you recreate just the structure of the 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.080 framework of those conversations and where is it that that 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.080 kind of conversation is even possible right now? And the 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.720 other hand, there is there are huge financial interests in 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:31.800 making it seem like we're so different that we could 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.119 never talk to each other. So the algorithms on Twitter 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:39.320 that monetize hate and disagreement and discord, for example, don't 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.640 want us to be saying, oh, I can see like 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:43.800 oh I'm a democrat, but I can see how Republicans 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.159 have some good points or gosh, maybe we were you know, 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.040 maybe let's think about the mask mandates or the lockdowns. 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:51.520 You know, maybe there was a better way to do 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:53.879 that or something like that. Let's have a conversation about that. 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:56.560 But when but when the all the money and the 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.240 power is going towards the extremes, it's hard to do that. 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.440 So you really have to almost check your your responses, right, 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.840 because there are things that we just automatically when politics 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:11.679 becomes identity, we just have an automatic peptic response to 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.200 like this is our tribe and that's their tribe and 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.600 stuff like that. So I think step one, you know, 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.720 thinking of the famous psychiatric joke is the light bulb 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.879 has to want to change, or you know, something like that. 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.240 And I don't know if we're there yet, but I 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.719 would say step one is to reimagine the structures in 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.920 which we can even have conversations, because there's no room 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.680 to understand different points of view, and to be honest, 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.400 a lot of points that we don't agree with. I mean, 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:41.880 the other issue is disagreeing with somebody a different point 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.640 of view is not automatically fatal. But that's the way 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.760 it feels right now, given the high stakes of politics 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:49.159 and the ways people are pushed, So how do you 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.040 work back from that? But I think that's that's number one, 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:55.320 is actually thinking about that framework of how can we 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.600 have that conversation where we can say and then I 0:20:57.640 --> 0:20:59.639 just think for me for myself, like, think of all 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.600 the times I've not had that response about masks, about vaccines, 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:06.679 about everything else. Like, so we end up getting pushed 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:12.080 into defending very very extreme positions in response to these provocations. 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:14.240 But that's you know, the descantises of the world, that's 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:16.560 what they want, like, they want us to seem so polarized. 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:18.440 And so I guess the point I'm trying to make 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.959 is we need a strategy for polarization itself that actually 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:25.160 sees ending polarization as the end goal. But it's hard 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.200 because we're in a winner take all, zero sum political 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:31.160 system where the stakes of even trying to compromise or 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.199 are really high. You've said a couple of things that 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:36.960 I that I want to unpack, and so what So 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:42.240 one the first thing is, Jennathan, let's talk about couples therapy, right, 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:44.920 and the premise of couples therapy because what I think 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:49.760 that what I think is important here is that the 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:54.520 premise of couples therapy isn't for one side to win, right. 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:57.880 The goal of couples therapy is not two people deciding 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:00.240 that they're going to go in and then one of 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:03.040 them is going to leave and they're going to be right, 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:06.560 what is the goal of couples like, tell us what 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:11.360 is the goal of that type of mirroring in terms of, Oh, 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:13.760 I see what you're you know what I hear you 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:17.200 trying to say? Because these are like, these are important 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:21.000 tools that unless you go to couples therapy, you're actually 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:24.120 not being taught in any type of way to have 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:28.320 constructive conversations, right. And but the funny thing is is 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:32.760 that conversation is the foundation of every relationship, right, whether 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:36.919 it is romantic or platonic, intimate, you know, levels of 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.920 intimacy or not. It's a foundation of everything. And so 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:44.400 what is the goal when you're entering and you're learning 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:49.800 that type of mirroring and constructive conversation. Well, it's interesting 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:53.040 I'm a spokespersoner for this, like as a single American, right, 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.879 But I will say that I in my training, I 0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:59.359 learned a lot of useful principles that hopefully we'll be 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:01.880 useful for somebody else or maybe me at some other 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:04.320 point in my life. But I would say that I 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:06.400 think one of the base, one of the most important 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:11.240 concepts is that when people feel discounted, they escalate. And 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:15.240 I think that's the main thing. Is when somebody feels dismissed, 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:19.400 they escalate, and then it pushes them into more extreme positions. 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:23.960 And so the trick is to hear somebody else right, 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:26.800 even if you don't agree with what they're saying, you 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:31.639 gain so much by acknowledging their perspective because in a 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:33.680 way it lets them then say, okay, well I agree 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:35.480 with this, I don't agree with this. Where think of 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:38.000 all the times that we say, man, that's dumb or 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.000 I disagree or whatever. It's hard because in the heat 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:42.159 of the moment, as we know, it's super hard. But 0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:46.639 the main concept is instead of automatic dismissal, which pushes 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:52.560 into these polarization moments. I was saying before, my favorite 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:56.000 exercise from this, which I think is also a useful 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:59.679 political political political size is two people sit down at 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:04.280 the end of a day. One person speaks about discomfort. 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:07.720 Oh my god, let's not have any discomfort, um, but whatever, 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:09.880 something that's on their minds, something that's bothered them. They 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:13.800 speak for five minutes the other person and it can 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:15.720 be very critical and can be whatever the other person 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:18.280 instead of trying to you can never try to talk 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:20.400 to that person out of it. The other person says, 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:23.480 let me hear let me let me repeat for three 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:26.320 minutes what I hear what I think you said. Let 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:29.120 me here's my understanding of what I think you said. 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:30.720 Tell me if I got this right. I hear you 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:33.159 saying blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And then 0:24:33.200 --> 0:24:36.160 you try to only sly genuinely, because almost having their 0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:39.240 perspective come out of your mouth is a kind of 0:24:39.240 --> 0:24:41.800 empathy building exercise. And then the person can then respond 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:45.160 and say, Okay, there's this, there's this. Then the other 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:47.040 person does the exact same thing, and then you think 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:50.280 about ways to kind of resolve it. So that's kind 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:53.960 of standard conflict resolution is let me, let me, let 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:56.000 me tell you what I think I hear you saying. 0:24:56.280 --> 0:24:58.760 In a way. No, it's hard when when when the 0:24:58.960 --> 0:25:03.320 when the goal is provocation, I mean, you know, the 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:05.600 when the goals provocation, the goal is to not have 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:09.360 those kind of conversations, is to have people have automatic 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:12.480 knee jerk responses. I mean, there's no one better at 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:16.240 circumventing this process than Trump. I mean, if you I 0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:18.520 was thinking about it this morning, like Trump saw a 0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:21.760 guy on TV talking about a critique of critical race theory, 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:25.800 and in his like lizard brain, he realized, Oh, here's 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:28.479 the wedge issue that we're going to fight this fight on. 0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:33.360 So Trump called the anti CRT guy to wherever his dungeon, 0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:36.879 and um, and that's what, that's what, that's what started 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:39.040 this whole thing. And so he kind of has a 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:41.200 nose for picking out the thing that makes the other 0:25:41.240 --> 0:25:45.400 person the most defensive. Um. And so in a way, 0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:47.719 the issues that were being fed on a plate are 0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:51.160