1 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to Woke, a f daily 2 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: with Meet your Girl Danielle Moody. Recording from the Brooklyn Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: I'm excited about today's Woke Wednesday conversation with our in 4 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. Last week, if you remember, 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: we were engaging in conversation around couples therapy and how 6 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: we as a society have lost the ability to have conversation. 7 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: It's not modeled, right. We often talk about diplomacy as 8 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: we refer to our actions abroad, but we're not talking 9 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: about how the two parties, Democrats and Republicans come to 10 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: the table. But we're also not talking about how we 11 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: have uncomfortable conversations ones that you know, we may not 12 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: come to an agreement at the end, but it gets 13 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: us somewhere. It has us understand each other better. And 14 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: at a time when our country is becoming increasingly polarized 15 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: by the millisecond, it's really important for us to start 16 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: to figure out, well, what do we do next? If 17 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: you have the Republican Party, for instance, that has decided 18 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: through the RNC that a coup attempt is normal political 19 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: discourse and so they're not going to pay attention to 20 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: anything moving forward if that's their thing. And then you 21 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: have democrats believing that what they can offer is just 22 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: you know, sympathy, empathy. Let me try and be your 23 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: best friend from across the aisle. Let me flatter you 24 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: with talking about what an honorable person you are. And 25 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: if that doesn't work, then what will? And I think 26 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: oftentimes we actually place too much responsibility on our representatives, 27 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: on celebrities, on people that are bigger than we are, 28 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: because we think that they should be better. But the 29 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: fact is, have you seen anybody over the course of 30 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: the last two years, four years, five years for that matter, 31 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: showcasing modeling for the world how we engage in difficult conversation. No, 32 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: what we are seeing is just if white people are uncomfortable, 33 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: then we need to shut down every bit of conversation 34 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,839 Speaker 1: that has to do with America's real origination story, right, 35 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: real origin story. That if white people are uncomfortable with 36 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: trans children playing on sports teams, then we need to 37 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: eliminate trans kids from being able to play on sports teams. 38 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: That instead of us figuring out how we get to 39 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: some place of mutual respect, mutual understanding, that we have 40 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: just decided to just give up. And what's really important 41 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: right now, I think in this conversation that Jonathan and 42 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: I have to sided to engage in, frankly, is modeling 43 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: what isn't being taught right and how we come to 44 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: the table. And I'm not saying that this is going 45 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: to work with people who don't believe in reason, right 46 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: who don't want to have reasonable conversation, or really that 47 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: you don't want to engage in in conversation with them. 48 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, if we're going 49 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: to coexist in society, then we are going to have 50 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: to find a way to get through to one another. 51 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: It isn't your you know, the rabbit of right wing 52 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: isn't going to be able to lock up silence every 53 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: single person in this country that is a dissenter. I 54 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: know that that is what they would like to do, 55 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: and that is their you know, neo nazi, fascist, you 56 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: know fantasy, But that's not going to happen. On my side, 57 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: the progressive side, I'm coming to the realization that we're 58 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: never going to eradicate white supremacy, that it is too 59 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: embedded in the fabric and the function of this society 60 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: that we need to instead of having conversations about eradication, right, 61 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: that there needs to be more conversation around education and 62 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: what it means to protect ourselves. And I don't mean 63 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: just the talk that black parents and brown parents need 64 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: to have with their young children in order to make 65 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 1: sure that they stay safe in school and stay safe 66 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: on the streets, and stay safe while they're driving from 67 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: white predators, whether they have a badge or not. That 68 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: there needs to be more than that, right, And so 69 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: we are living in really precarious, frustrating, aggressive, polarizing, exhausting times. 70 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: Giving up isn't an option, right, So then what do 71 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: we do? So my conversation today coming up next with Jonathan, 72 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: we're going to attle right how you have conversations. He's 73 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: going to offer one tactic right that you all can 74 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: practice this week, this weekend, whether it be with family members, 75 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: your significant others, children, your boss, your colleagues, and figuring 76 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: out how we move past stalemate situations or the desire 77 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: to just be right right and get to a better place. 78 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: And I can offer this. You know, before I was divorced, 79 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: my ex wife and I also went through couples therapy 80 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: and this was years prior to the divorce taking place, 81 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: and I found it helpful. I found the techniques helpful 82 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: not only in hearing her, but also being able to 83 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: apply those couple therapy tactics in terms of mirroring what 84 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: people are saying. Am I getting this right? Allowing people 85 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: to speak for uninterrupted, really listening, not listening for a retort, 86 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: but listening so that then you can mirror back and 87 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: reflect back what you think you heard the person say, 88 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: and then allow them the ability to be able to say, no, 89 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: that actually isn't what I said. What I said was X, 90 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: and then again going back, Okay, I'm absorbing that is 91 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: this is what I heard you say? Is this correct? Yes? Okay? 92 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: And then you move from there and you build the 93 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: conversation from there. And I found it very helpful to 94 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: use not only in my personal life outside of the 95 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: confines of my marriage, but also in my professional life, 96 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, what is it 97 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:46,679 Speaker 1: that people really want? What do humans want? We want 98 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: to know that we are heard, We want to know 99 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: that we are seen, We want to know that we 100 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: are valued. Right, those are like the three basics that 101 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: if you can get to that place, like when we 102 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: talk about equity, when we talk about creating space at 103 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: the table for other people's voices. It is because people 104 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: of color, black people, Latin X people, Asian, the Pacific 105 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: Islanders folks, API folks, we have been invisibilized right from 106 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: the American story. We have been invisibilized from the narrative, 107 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: and that is mirrored back to us in the content 108 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: that we consume on a myriad of platforms. Also coming 109 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: down from Hollywood, who is the leading part, who is 110 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: the leading man, quote unquote, who's the leading woman, quote unquote, 111 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: who is labeled the sexiest person alive, the most beautiful? 112 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: We have started to see bits and pieces of progress, 113 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: right like we saw in our politics with the election 114 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: of Obama, but then the regression and the backlash that 115 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: we're experiencing now. To hearken back to Jim Crow years, 116 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: it's the same thing that we see in a in 117 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: an aesthetic way. Years ago, we were having a conversation 118 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: around the Oscars thanks to April Rain tweeting out hashtag 119 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: oscar so White for the Academy to have some self 120 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: examination as to what it is that they are awarding, 121 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: right like, who is judging, who is doing the judging, 122 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: what does the criteria look like, and then come to 123 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: find out that, of course a majority of the form press, 124 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: the Foreign Association are white men above the age of 125 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: sixty years old. So you think that they're going to 126 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:54,359 Speaker 1: be looking at black and brown content creators, directors, producers, 127 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: artists and saying that they value that. No, they're fucking 128 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: not so there. Sometimes it is necessary for us to 129 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: do a call out right, to call attention to how 130 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: discrimination works, right, how invisibilizing groups of people work, how 131 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: gaslighting works. But then there are other times when we 132 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: want to do a call in where we want to 133 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: bring people to the table to be able to have 134 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: to raise consciousness, to also raise vibrational levels right, so 135 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: that we can get to a place where I don't 136 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: want to just assume the worst out of you. But 137 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: I also need you, whether you are a voting member 138 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: of the Academy, whether you are a jobs recruiter or 139 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: a college recruiter, I need you to be a lot 140 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: more intentional. I need you to create rubrics and to 141 00:09:54,720 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: create a more expanded idea of what acceptance right looks 142 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: like and recognize that there is value in diversity, not 143 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: just for the quote unquote aesthetic of rainbowing things up 144 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: right on its face, but not creating the scaffolding and 145 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: the culture that will support diverse people and voices and perspectives. 146 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: Because again, what is it that people want, regardless of 147 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: their race, ethnicity, religion, orientation, gender identity, and beyond. They 148 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: want to be seen, they want to be heard, and 149 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: they want to be valued. Right, So can we agree 150 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: to those three things, and then can we then have 151 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: open debate and conversation about the ways in which we 152 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: have set up a society that disallows those diverse voices 153 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: to have the same effect, weight, and engagement in our 154 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: mainstream discourse, regardless of what the topics are. So I 155 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: feel that in you, in these conversations that Jonathan and 156 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: I are having now and are hoping to model for 157 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: all of you, that instead of just marinating in the misery, 158 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: instead of just ticking off the latest headlines of things 159 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: that are wrong, that what we are beginning to realize 160 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: is that at the core of what is wrong is 161 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: our lack of communication with one another. And then when 162 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: they are added in forces that are at play that 163 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: are working purposefully to keep everyone isolated, angry, and operating 164 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: on one hundred and above right, that there is monetary 165 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: value in that, right, that people are making money off 166 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: of your rage, making money off of your pain and 167 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: your grief. Right, those are real conversations to be had 168 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: because you know, Jonathan will say in our interview that 169 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: the algorithm is the algorithms that we are all confined within, 170 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: whether you're using Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or what 171 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: have you. The algorithms are set up so that the 172 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: anger you become, right, the more that you're seeing content 173 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: that subscribes to that emotion. That that's what keeps people 174 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: on the devices, on the platforms and readily engaged. And 175 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: there is no desire to offer proof to something else. Right, 176 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: So I think that, folks, it's really truly important for 177 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: us to recognize that we are trapped in a cycle 178 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: of trauma, right, that living in America these days, the 179 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 1: past half a decade has been incredibly fucking traumatizing, and 180 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: that there is no pressure that is being released. It 181 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: is just continuing to circulate and grow and grow and 182 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: grow and metastasize. And so if our leaders, right, if 183 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: our representatives are not going to model good behavior, are 184 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: not going to model appropriate discourse, discourse that moves us through, 185 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: not around issues right, not pretending that everything is is 186 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: willy nilly and perfect, but that actually seeks to expand 187 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: our understanding and move us through. If that's not being modeled, 188 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: then we need to figure out what else it is 189 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: that we are going to do. Because things are not 190 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: going to get better by us pretending that they are better. 191 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: They're not going to get better by us banning our 192 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: way to neutrality. So what else is there? And I 193 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: think that these are going to be increasingly important conversations 194 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: that Jonathan and I are going to be having, and 195 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: we will bring other people in to the conversation to 196 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: see how these tactics can actually work in the political sphere, 197 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: and hopefully we can begin in this small way to 198 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: start to offer solutions rather than just teasing out more 199 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: of the problems. So that's something that I am excited 200 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: about and I'm looking forward to. And after you listen 201 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: to this week's Woke Wednesday interview with Jonathan, do tell 202 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: me in the comments section about whether or not you 203 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: think that these tactics will or will not work if 204 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: you're open to trying them, and then sharing whether you 205 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: DM me or tweet at both Jonathan and I or 206 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: sharing the comment section again with others about trying some 207 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: of these things out and seeing how they land, and 208 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: again giving ourselves some grace and those around us to 209 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: understanding this is not a a quick fix, right. This 210 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: actually requires a lot more work and intentionality on all 211 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: of our parts. And I think that that is an 212 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: important space for us to be in and to consider 213 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: to be in, because if we don't start taking these issues, 214 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: these problems that we're facing, bit by bit, if we're 215 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: not making them bite size, then we're going to choke, right, 216 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: and it's just going to feel like too much. So, folks, 217 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: coming up next is my conversation with our friend woke 218 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: Wednesday guest doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know that whenever 219 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: we have the opportunity to talk with our in house 220 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: doctor every single week, doctor Jonathan Metzel, we are always 221 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: very excited and appreciative of your time. You know, last week, Jonathan, 222 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: I was really I left our conversation feeling really good, 223 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: which has not been the case when we are always 224 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: going down the rabbit hole of you know, really emotionally 225 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: charged topics like gun violence, like COVID, and so I 226 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: wanted to pick up on where we left off last week, 227 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: when we're talking about conversation and the art of conversation 228 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: and how the point is like, if we're let's say 229 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: we're talking about foreign affairs in the United States, we 230 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: are talking about diplomacy, Where does diplomacy come from? It 231 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: comes from conversation? Last week at the end of at 232 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: the end of last week, you had the Republican the 233 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: Republican Party issue a proclamation through the RNC that said 234 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: that January sixth, according to them, was normal political discourse. Right. 235 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: So if that is what we are dealing with, right, 236 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: a party that believes that breaking into the Capitol building, 237 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: harming people violence is normal political discourse, how do we 238 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: get back? How do we even engage Jonathan in a 239 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: way where we are going to talk to one another 240 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: when this is what they are identifying as the norm. 241 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: What I liked about our conversation last week was that 242 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: we used couple's therapy as a metaphor, which I think 243 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: is a useful metaphor because a lot of times in 244 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: couples therapy, what you learn is instead of somebody says 245 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: something that you don't agree with, and instead of saying 246 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: I don't agree with that you say, let me hear, 247 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: let me hear what I let let me try to 248 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: articulate what I hear you saying, or you know that 249 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: you're not talking somebody out of something they're saying. Instead, 250 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,719 Speaker 1: you're trying to say, let me see if I can 251 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: understand why you feel that way, Let me see if 252 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 1: I can articulate that. Tell me if I get this right. 253 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: And that's kind of the basis of conflict negotiation related 254 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: conversation a lot of times is the idea that you 255 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: can basically acknowledge somebody else's point of view, even if 256 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: it's something you completely don't agree with. At least the 257 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: starter is like, yeah, you know, tell me more, Tell 258 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: me more about why you don't trust modern medicine. Tell 259 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: me why you think something I mean, think of someone you. 260 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: Tell me why you think ivermectin might be helpful, like 261 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: something we just you know, wouldn't maybe not agree with automatically, 262 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: but but instead we get into this point where we're 263 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: doing exactly a thing you're not supposed to do in 264 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: couples therapy, which is you talk you try to talk 265 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: somebody out of, try to talk somebody out of a 266 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: position that they feel really deeply about and when you 267 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: think about like the frameworks in which American political discourse happens, 268 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: or just everyday discourse, how many places are there where 269 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: you can even have that kind of conversation, which is 270 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: really hard conversation. The whole the whole world is set 271 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: up to not have that conversation. So Twitter now has 272 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: a down button where you can just block out conversations 273 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: that you find disagreeable. Schools on many sides are trying 274 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: to eliminate content they find um, you know, um um displeasure, yeah, 275 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: and so um and so um you know. So in 276 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: a way, we're losing the skill set to do that, right, 277 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: I mean so in a way. Part of the issue 278 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: is how can you recreate just the structure of the 279 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: framework of those conversations and where is it that that 280 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: kind of conversation is even possible right now? And the 281 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: other hand, there is there are huge financial interests in 282 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: making it seem like we're so different that we could 283 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: never talk to each other. So the algorithms on Twitter 284 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: that monetize hate and disagreement and discord, for example, don't 285 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: want us to be saying, oh, I can see like 286 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: oh I'm a democrat, but I can see how Republicans 287 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: have some good points or gosh, maybe we were you know, 288 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: maybe let's think about the mask mandates or the lockdowns. 289 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: You know, maybe there was a better way to do 290 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: that or something like that. Let's have a conversation about that. 291 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: But when but when the all the money and the 292 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: power is going towards the extremes, it's hard to do that. 293 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: So you really have to almost check your your responses, right, 294 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: because there are things that we just automatically when politics 295 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: becomes identity, we just have an automatic peptic response to 296 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: like this is our tribe and that's their tribe and 297 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: stuff like that. So I think step one, you know, 298 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: thinking of the famous psychiatric joke is the light bulb 299 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: has to want to change, or you know, something like that. 300 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: And I don't know if we're there yet, but I 301 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,719 Speaker 1: would say step one is to reimagine the structures in 302 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: which we can even have conversations, because there's no room 303 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: to understand different points of view, and to be honest, 304 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: a lot of points that we don't agree with. I mean, 305 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: the other issue is disagreeing with somebody a different point 306 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: of view is not automatically fatal. But that's the way 307 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: it feels right now, given the high stakes of politics 308 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: and the ways people are pushed, So how do you 309 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: work back from that? But I think that's that's number one, 310 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: is actually thinking about that framework of how can we 311 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: have that conversation where we can say and then I 312 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: just think for me for myself, like, think of all 313 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: the times I've not had that response about masks, about vaccines, 314 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: about everything else. Like, so we end up getting pushed 315 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: into defending very very extreme positions in response to these provocations. 316 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: But that's you know, the descantises of the world, that's 317 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: what they want, like, they want us to seem so polarized. 318 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: And so I guess the point I'm trying to make 319 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,959 Speaker 1: is we need a strategy for polarization itself that actually 320 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: sees ending polarization as the end goal. But it's hard 321 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: because we're in a winner take all, zero sum political 322 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: system where the stakes of even trying to compromise or 323 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 1: are really high. You've said a couple of things that 324 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: I that I want to unpack, and so what So 325 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: one the first thing is, Jennathan, let's talk about couples therapy, right, 326 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: and the premise of couples therapy because what I think 327 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: that what I think is important here is that the 328 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: premise of couples therapy isn't for one side to win, right. 329 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: The goal of couples therapy is not two people deciding 330 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: that they're going to go in and then one of 331 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: them is going to leave and they're going to be right, 332 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: what is the goal of couples like, tell us what 333 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 1: is the goal of that type of mirroring in terms of, Oh, 334 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: I see what you're you know what I hear you 335 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: trying to say? Because these are like, these are important 336 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: tools that unless you go to couples therapy, you're actually 337 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: not being taught in any type of way to have 338 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: constructive conversations, right. And but the funny thing is is 339 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: that conversation is the foundation of every relationship, right, whether 340 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: it is romantic or platonic, intimate, you know, levels of 341 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: intimacy or not. It's a foundation of everything. And so 342 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: what is the goal when you're entering and you're learning 343 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: that type of mirroring and constructive conversation. Well, it's interesting 344 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: I'm a spokespersoner for this, like as a single American, right, 345 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: But I will say that I in my training, I 346 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: learned a lot of useful principles that hopefully we'll be 347 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: useful for somebody else or maybe me at some other 348 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: point in my life. But I would say that I 349 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: think one of the base, one of the most important 350 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: concepts is that when people feel discounted, they escalate. And 351 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: I think that's the main thing. Is when somebody feels dismissed, 352 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: they escalate, and then it pushes them into more extreme positions. 353 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: And so the trick is to hear somebody else right, 354 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: even if you don't agree with what they're saying, you 355 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: gain so much by acknowledging their perspective because in a 356 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: way it lets them then say, okay, well I agree 357 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: with this, I don't agree with this. Where think of 358 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: all the times that we say, man, that's dumb or 359 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: I disagree or whatever. It's hard because in the heat 360 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: of the moment, as we know, it's super hard. But 361 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: the main concept is instead of automatic dismissal, which pushes 362 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: into these polarization moments. I was saying before, my favorite 363 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: exercise from this, which I think is also a useful 364 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: political political political size is two people sit down at 365 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: the end of a day. One person speaks about discomfort. 366 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: Oh my god, let's not have any discomfort, um, but whatever, 367 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: something that's on their minds, something that's bothered them. They 368 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: speak for five minutes the other person and it can 369 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: be very critical and can be whatever the other person 370 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: instead of trying to you can never try to talk 371 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: to that person out of it. The other person says, 372 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: let me hear let me let me repeat for three 373 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: minutes what I hear what I think you said. Let 374 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: me here's my understanding of what I think you said. 375 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: Tell me if I got this right. I hear you 376 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: saying blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And then 377 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: you try to only sly genuinely, because almost having their 378 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: perspective come out of your mouth is a kind of 379 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: empathy building exercise. And then the person can then respond 380 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: and say, Okay, there's this, there's this. Then the other 381 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: person does the exact same thing, and then you think 382 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: about ways to kind of resolve it. So that's kind 383 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: of standard conflict resolution is let me, let me, let 384 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: me tell you what I think I hear you saying. 385 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: In a way. No, it's hard when when when the 386 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: when the goal is provocation, I mean, you know, the 387 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: when the goals provocation, the goal is to not have 388 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: those kind of conversations, is to have people have automatic 389 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: knee jerk responses. I mean, there's no one better at 390 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: circumventing this process than Trump. I mean, if you I 391 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: was thinking about it this morning, like Trump saw a 392 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: guy on TV talking about a critique of critical race theory, 393 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: and in his like lizard brain, he realized, Oh, here's 394 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,479 Speaker 1: the wedge issue that we're going to fight this fight on. 395 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: So Trump called the anti CRT guy to wherever his dungeon, 396 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: and um, and that's what, that's what, that's what started 397 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: this whole thing. And so he kind of has a 398 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: nose for picking out the thing that makes the other 399 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: person the most defensive. Um. And so in a way, 400 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,719 Speaker 1: the issues that were being fed on a plate are 401 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: the ones that are that are the ones that are 402 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: that are not make it the hardest to have those conversations. 403 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: But I still think the skill set is the same 404 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: in a way. You know, I still think that the 405 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: skill set the minute they say we're against CRT and 406 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: our fight is what we're defending CRT, we're already on 407 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: their terrain in a way, and even and vice versa. Also, 408 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: so again I just think we're on terrain where these 409 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: kind of conversations are really difficult. But I can say, 410 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: I mean, I would invite all of our listeners across 411 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: the country and across the globe to try that out 412 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: for a week and just see how it leads to 413 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: different endpoints, and believe it or not, it actually works 414 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: in many cases, you know. So one of the things 415 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: that I want to ask you too, So you say, right, 416 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: you open up and you say, like, people want to 417 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: be heard, right, They want to feel like what they 418 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: are saying matters. No one wants to be invisibilized, right, 419 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: and yet Jonathan, and they want to have their feelings 420 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: centered in some type of way. Let me offer like 421 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 1: my calculus here, which is that all that we've ever 422 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: centered in this country is white people's feelings and white 423 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: people's needs. Right, And so it is mirrored back to 424 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: you via Hollywood, It's mirrored back to you via cable news. 425 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: You know, it's mirrored back to you in terms of, oh, 426 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: we have to go and talk to the blue collar voter, 427 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: or let's understand the Trump voter. Nobody ever wanted to 428 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: I don't think that anybody has ever wanted to understand 429 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: a democratic voter or ever wanted to understand a black 430 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: voter or a lat To next voter. But we create 431 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: these dynamics to have these town halls. We look for 432 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: reasons to say why white people are aggrieved, to point 433 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: to anything other than racism, right when we know that 434 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: that's actually the reason. And so my question is if 435 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: the if we know those things to be true, then 436 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: how is it that we have dialogue with people who 437 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: I believe their narrative is already centered? Right, their story 438 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: is all ready told over and over again. So how 439 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: do you come to a place where one person, right, 440 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: black and brown people and folks from other marginalized communities 441 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 1: have never had their story, their narrative anything ever centered. 442 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: And that's the moment that we're in right now, why 443 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: we're seeing so much pushback. And yet you have this 444 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: group over here that's just like, oh well, what about 445 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: me and like and my white tears? How do you like? 446 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: And I say, I'm being flippant, but you you get 447 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like, everybody wants to be heard, but 448 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: there's one group that has always historically been centered and heard. 449 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: How do you move past that? Is? What is your advice? 450 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: I should say in or the steps in how we 451 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: would begin to move to move through that. I don't 452 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: want to say move past it, but actually attempt to 453 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: move through that. Well, let me let me ask a 454 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: question first, which is, when I was talking about the 455 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: couple's therapy stuff, did you assume that I was talking 456 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: about sensitive white people. No, but that's where I wanted 457 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: to go. Yeah, because I actually think so. I think 458 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: there are two ways to answer that question. One is, 459 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: I actually think it's a it's a good political strategy. 460 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: Right if they provoke on critical race theory and we 461 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: fight back defending critical race theory, all of a sudden, 462 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: we're on their ground. And so from a political standpoint, 463 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: even if you don't, I just think that from as 464 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: a strategic standpoint to it. It's also we get into 465 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: these fights where we're just discounting what people are saying 466 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: and we're always playing defense. And so I think in 467 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: part what I'm trying to say is not just about 468 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: interpersonal dams. It's also like thinking about a political way 469 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: to fight back that is in part about imagine you're 470 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: not trying to defeat the other side, you're trying to 471 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: sell them a used car or something like that, which 472 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: right now is very valuable. You would kind of try 473 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: to understand what motivates them and then articulate back what 474 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: motivates them in ways that makes them feel less defensive 475 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,959 Speaker 1: and things like that, and we don't we don't do 476 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: that politically very often. I would say, Now, of course, 477 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: this whole conversation is about inequity, and certainly I feel 478 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: like the people who have the most to learn. I'm 479 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: not actually talking about protecting the feelings of white Americans, 480 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: although I think there are a lot of people. I mean, 481 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,239 Speaker 1: my own book, Dying of Whiteness was critical of like 482 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: the empathy approach of let's just touch people's feelings. That's 483 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: not what I'm saying, But I will say that if 484 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: if this is a skill that like mainstream white America 485 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: could learn, this would also be a great a great moment. 486 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: Like I just wrote a book. I just wrote the 487 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: forward for this great book, Viral Underclass that's going to 488 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: come out next year, that talked about inequity during the pandemic. 489 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: And one of the points I was making during the 490 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: pen during that was when when COVID first hit um, 491 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: it was really clear that that the pandemic was exacerbating 492 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: pre existing in equity, and the people who were the 493 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: most at risk were the people who were the most 494 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: at risk the week before the pandemic hit. Also, and 495 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: as we as we recognize that black and Hispanic people 496 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: were dying from COVID UM, what if the answer of 497 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: white America would have been, we are dying. Americans are dying, 498 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: and we need to tell us what we can do 499 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: to help better so that we are all safer. Something 500 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: like that, like something that was an inclusive narrative, tell 501 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: us what we can do to make this better so 502 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: that we can all be safer. If Trump would have 503 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: even I mean it's unimaginable mouth those words, he would 504 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: still leave president, you know, and not to do all 505 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: these kind of things. So in other words, like polarization 506 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: feels natural, but it's such the wrong response. Imagine if 507 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: if at that time it would have been, like, man, 508 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: I'm acknowledging that, you know, in the first two months 509 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: of covid people who are who can't social distance and 510 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: can't um can't do other things like they So I 511 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: just I just think that the role of empathy and 512 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: political discourse like that would actually be much more effective 513 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: in a particular way. So that's kind of a long 514 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: and rambling point except to say that I think it's 515 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: just a I mean, part of this exercise is to 516 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: recognize just how acutely we go right into the polarizing narrative. 517 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: But I do think ultimately this is a skill White 518 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: America needs to learn. So tell me. You said folks 519 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: should go home and try this this this week. What 520 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: are some of the things. What are some of the 521 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: redirects that we can offer that folks can practice in 522 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: conversation with their loved ones, their bosses, whomever. That would help. 523 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: That would not be about getting to a right or wrong, 524 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: but getting into more conversations. So what are some of 525 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: those phrases? Well, one thing would be like, let me 526 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: let me tell you what I think I hear you saying, 527 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: and tell me if I'm getting this wrong. Something like that, 528 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: like I'm taking seriously what you're saying. Let me let 529 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: me just tell you what I hear you saying, and 530 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: you can tell me if I'm getting this right or not. 531 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: What I hear you saying is and then be honest, 532 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: like I hear you saying that you think vaccines are 533 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: ineffective and they haven't been effectively tested, and we should 534 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: have more testing to keep the country safe, but not 535 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: rush out there in mandate a vaccine for everybody, but instead, 536 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: you know, something like I'm just giving an example I 537 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: agree with, but but you know you don't have to 538 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: use like mandate or anti vax or something like that. 539 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: But I think that I think for me, the most 540 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: useful one is let me let me tell you what 541 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: I I think I hear you saying, and tell me 542 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: if I'm if I'm getting this wrong, and then let 543 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: the person respond after you articulate that. To me, that's better. 544 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: I mean there are ways. They're kind of like very 545 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: ineffective ways of doing this, Like I've heard people who 546 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: aren't good at it say stuff like thank you for 547 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: sharing that, and like, you know, you want to hit 548 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: that person in the half of a frying pan because 549 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: that's like you condescending a hole. Um. But I think 550 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: if you, if you can, just if you can start 551 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: with let me let me tell you what I think 552 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: I hear you saying, and tell me if I if 553 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: I if I'm getting that wrong. What you're doing is 554 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: number one, you're taking it seriously enough to think about 555 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: it and articulate it, and then you're also giving that 556 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 1: other person editorial leeway to correct you. And so those 557 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: are two important moves to try to de escalate. And 558 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 1: again it doesn't I mean sometimes you just disagree about things, sure, 559 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: but I mean this is that is a really you know, 560 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: it is a helpful tool. It is a It is 561 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: a helpful way to just try it out and see 562 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: if you if you continue to hit a wall or 563 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: if it if it opens up a different avenue for 564 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: there to be more conversation, more understanding. And I think 565 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: that if folks were to attempt to try that again 566 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: with your family, your friends, your boss, you know, your 567 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: colleague that you may be having a difficult time with, 568 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: I think that you may find that you you get 569 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: to a more agreeable or amenable place. I won't say agreeable, 570 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: but you may get to a more amenable place. I mean, 571 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: you can try it on social media also, you know, 572 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: it's um like think about the places that are the 573 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: most polarized. Um, you know, it's fun. Like I put 574 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: up some snark this morning. It was really gratifying to 575 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 1: get like five hundred people who retweeted and liked my snark. 576 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,720 Speaker 1: Like we live on it, We live in a snark. 577 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: We were living on snark and shade fumes right now 578 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: when we agree when we try it, but I mean 579 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: try it on social media also, like um, instead of 580 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: doing their stupid disagree button that just started today. UM, 581 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: Like try that. Tried that with disagreeable opinions and see 582 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: where you know. I think there's a there's a new 583 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: framework for new algorithms that I think we're just not considering. 584 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,240 Speaker 1: And I think we're in a really bad place because 585 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: we're so radically, we're so radically losing the ability to 586 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: talk to each other and it's getting to a point 587 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: of ridiculousness. I mean, I was saying this morning, like 588 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: when you're when you're trying to ban things that make 589 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: people uncomfortable, like what Florida is doing right now in 590 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: the schools, like you actually lose the ability to talk 591 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: about discomfort. And I was just thinking, like I went 592 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: to medical school, Like part of the goal as a 593 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 1: doctor is you walk into the rooms of all different 594 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: kinds of patients and you were talking about all different 595 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: kinds of really complex life issues. And if you can't 596 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: talk about discomfort, about a diagnosis, about a treatment, about 597 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, social class or race, or anything like that, 598 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: you really you're going to be a really shitty doctor. 599 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: And that's true for a lot of different things. And 600 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: so in a way, what they're trying to do is 601 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: like ratchet it up by by making it hard to 602 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: talk about discomfort. And I think in a way we 603 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: need to embrace, like what are the ways to talk 604 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: about discomfort in a way that is enabling and not canceling. 605 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: I think that's really where we should be going. Jonathan, 606 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: as always, this is a very enlightening conversation and I 607 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 1: love these and I look forward to continuing more. And Folks, 608 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 1: if you do try out some of the tactics that 609 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: Jonathan has offered up today, let me know in the 610 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: comment section or on social media. You can get at 611 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: the both of us and find us on Twitter and 612 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: let us know if and how it is working for you. 613 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: Jonathan as always, appreciate you, thank you, and I one 614 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: last thing I want to say about this is, you know, 615 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: they're the divisions, like right now, the divisions are like 616 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: Republican or Democrat. But as things fracture, then it's like 617 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: dividing among us right in a way. And so these 618 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 1: things kind of fractured down so fighting back against divisiveness 619 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: and discord and polarization is going to become a skill 620 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: that's going to become even more important as the stakes 621 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: get higher. So I think it's super important that we 622 00:37:55,080 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: have these conversations. Fantastic, thank you, so as I'm going 623 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 1: to be doing, dear friends at the end of each 624 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: and every show, just allowing us some space and some 625 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: time to reflect. There is a group that I follow, 626 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 1: and I've discussed them before on here called the NAP 627 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: Ministry that was begun by visual artist and um and 628 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:32,320 Speaker 1: minister right in many ways, uh Tricia Hershey, black woman 629 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: who has realized the radical nature of black people reclaiming 630 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 1: rest right and moving outside of this grind culture and 631 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,879 Speaker 1: right now on her instagram, uh, the NAP Ministry um 632 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 1: and and she is a person that has done, you know, 633 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: years of research in this field, and you know, in 634 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: seminary on her Instagram she lays out for new people 635 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: that are following her now about her own rest practice 636 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: and why it is important and that within this space 637 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: that we allow ourselves to nap, that we open up 638 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: our dream portal. They were actually able to create and 639 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: just imagine and rest rest our minds, rest our bodies right, 640 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: and that while she has created this ministry based on 641 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: her research, that she did not create this platform as 642 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: a space to debate. And she offered something that I 643 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: thought was really important, particularly for me, right, a person 644 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: that uses social media as a way. Initially it was 645 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: supposed to be about an exchange of ideas. It wasn't 646 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: supposed to be an echo chamber. And she said that 647 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: she created the Now ministry based on her research and 648 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: what she has understood over the last twenty years, and 649 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: that if you don't agree with her, that's fine, go 650 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: out go create your own create your own ministry, create 651 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: your own podcast and blog, you know, and build your flock. 652 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,359 Speaker 1: But like I'm not here to debate with you, and 653 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: like you, you know, you believe that because I am 654 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: a black woman, that you have readily access to me, 655 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: and that I should show up right to whatever verbal 656 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: duel that you want to have at any given time 657 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: because you're hiding behind a screen. And you know, I 658 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: think that it is really important for us to remember 659 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: that we have choices when it comes to how and 660 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: when and if we choose to engage with people, and 661 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: that opting out of argument is not running away it's 662 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,720 Speaker 1: saying that I'd rather use my energy and my resources 663 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,720 Speaker 1: and my vibration for something else. Why am I going 664 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:04,760 Speaker 1: to waste hours on Twitter or on Instagram going back 665 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: and forth with what could potentially be a bot and 666 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: wasting so much energy and expending so much rage and 667 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,879 Speaker 1: just spinning, spinning, spinning, when frankly I could just opt out, 668 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: and I said, you know, it really got me thinking 669 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 1: about our very argumentative culture. Now you know me, you 670 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: come and watch me hopefully on Instagram Live every Wednesday 671 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,800 Speaker 1: at three thirty pm Eastern when I do Woke Wednesday 672 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: on Instagram, and it is an opportunity for me to 673 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: get out my rage and frustration for thirty minutes and 674 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: a space for you all collectively to build community and 675 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: to have conversation in real time with like minded people. 676 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: And I think that that's important. But then there are 677 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: times when I get on Twitter where people want to 678 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 1: tell me that I'm not woke and you know, I 679 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 1: should shut up and this, that and the other thing. 680 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: And I have moved from the place of feeling like 681 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: I needed to respond to every single naysayer, whether it's 682 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: somebody who puts a comment on a piece that I've 683 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: written at Zora Magazine and they're just like, you're writing 684 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: is trash. Well, sure, I could go in and decide 685 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: to waste and expend energy that I could be using 686 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: to create, or I could be using to rest and 687 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: go back and forth with you, But why go write 688 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: your own piece, Go do your own analysis, create your 689 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: own following right, her message on the NAP ministry reminded 690 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: me that it is within my power and within my 691 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: purview to opt in or opt out of whatever does 692 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: not serve me. And I think that we all need 693 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: those reminders, particularly now. You do not have to respond 694 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:03,760 Speaker 1: to that text, return that call, return that tweet, respond 695 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,280 Speaker 1: to that comment that is going to lead to nowhere. 696 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: You can instead choose to opt out and that is 697 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: your power and just say no, which is a complete sentence. 698 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 1: So that's a little bit of zen and reset and 699 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,240 Speaker 1: rest today. We don't have to engage. It is our choice. 700 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 1: So remember that as always, dear friends, Power to the 701 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 1: people and to all the people. Power, get woke and 702 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: stay woke as fuck.