WEBVTT - Interview: Absolute, with Nick Berardini 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.680 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:09.080 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.119 learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:13.920 production of iHeart Radio. 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.920 Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:29.400 my name is Noah. 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:32.320 They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.559 super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fago. Most importantly, you 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.159 are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:44.519 they don't want you to know. One of the memes 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:48.080 we were talking about before we started to roll today 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.440 was the old don't tase me bro meme. A lot 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:54.960 of people when they hear the question about whether or 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:59.600 not you've ever endured the pain of being tased, hearing 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.520 that question and may conjure images of Jackass style pranks. 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:08.720 But tragically, for many, many more people, this conversation will 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.360 immediately bring to mind over one thousand deaths at the 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.639 hands of taser wielding law enforcement officers. 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:19.759 Doesn't it also kind of remind you that there were 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:24.319 two potential presidential elect candidates that were in skull and bones, 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:26.679 and somebody wanted to know about it and ended up 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:30.920 getting taste. Sorry, don't mean to derail. That's what reminds me. 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:37.760 Of sure, or the larger deeper conversation about non lethal 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:43.760 versus less than lethal, or the larger deeper conversation about 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:49.720 corruption in law enforcement. Alternatives to firearms. Look, tasers are 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:55.000 sold everywhere and affordable to the public. We'll get to 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.520 a lot of deep water here, but before we before 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:01.960 we really dive in, We've got to tell you, folks, 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.400 we recently listened to Lava for Good's new hit podcast 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:12.560 Absolute Season one. Taser Incorporated explores much much more than 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:17.560 the headlines regarding the story of tasers, especially the story 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.200 of tasers as told by the companies that manufacture tasers, 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:25.840 and we are always looking for primary sources. Today, we 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:28.320 are thrilled to be joined with the creator of the show, 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:32.520 the one and only Nick Bredini. Nick, thank you so 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:34.519 much for sharing some time with us today. 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:36.839 Yeah, thank you, guys, I'm a huge fan. It's great 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:37.239 to be here. 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:47.200 Well, you know, we've collectively spent a lot of time 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.160 with your podcast, with other work you've done and writing 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:54.040 you've done, and we are filled with questions for you, 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.720 and it's tough to know really where to start, but 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.840 I think maybe a good place would be, well, we 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:02.320 want to know about you too, but I think I 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.040 think this question will get to who you are too. 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.679 Please tell us who was Stanley Harlan, what happened to him, 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.919 and what about his story inspired you, as a student 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.880 at the University of Missouri to create a documentary about him. 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:15.440 Yeah. 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:18.120 Really take us back in time here, because this is 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.520 your origin story. This is the part of what launched 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.400 you into a decade plus investigation. So if you could 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.639 set the scene, You're a journalism student at University of 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:32.520 Missouri and you receive an assignment right just given to you, 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:34.840 and all they tell you at first is a man 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.680 has died while in the custody of law enforcement. 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.280 Yeah. So, I mean one of the unique things about 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:43.600 going to school at the University of Missouri, where I 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:46.480 also sort of happened to play basketball as sort of 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:50.440 like my fun fact about me is that I was 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:53.760 the worst player on a high major Division one basketball 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:55.720 team where I got dunked on and practice a bunch 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:57.800 of times. But it was nice to be cool for 0:03:57.840 --> 0:03:59.800 a few years there. You still get the all the 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.080 part works that come with the starters, you know, in 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.840 terms of popularity. So that was fun. But I had 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:08.360 spent most all my life thinking about wanting to work 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.880 in basketball or sports to some degree, and had kind 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:13.880 of this plan where I was going to go, you know, 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:15.680 off to law school and be an agent, or I 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:17.920 was going to work for some NBA team. I really 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:21.160 grew up in sports, and when I went to Missouri, 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.760 the best degree you could get was a journalism degree. 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:28.000 And naturally, everybody who goes to the broadcast school then 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:32.040 the television news school is interested in sports, right They 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.080 all want to be the next analyst for ESPN, et cetera, 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:38.479 et cetera. And one of the unique things that happened 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:40.680 to me and why the journalism school at Missouri is 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:43.479 so great, is that you actually have to work as 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.880 a reporter for real local affiliates. If you're in the 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.039 magazine school, you have to work for a real magazine. 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.920 If you're in the newspaper, we have a you know, Columbia, 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:56.800 Missouri has its own you know, city newspaper that's staffed 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:01.480 by student reporters and their editors are prof Basically that's 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.520 true of the NBC affiliate as well. The local NBC 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.599 affiliate is staffed by professors who are the you know, 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.240 news directors and news managers, but the reporters are students, 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:16.320 and I, because I was playing basketball, had to basically 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.920 push off a lot of my advanced level classes that conflicted, 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.400 you know, with my schedule until I was done playing basketball. 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.279 So I got this like fifth year student experience where 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.359 I was hanging out basically doing nothing but partying and 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.599 going to the news room basically. And you've dunked a 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:36.760 few times. I do, but in my best days, with 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.440 enough of a running start, I could definitely dunk just 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:41.520 a little bit, just enough in warm ups to show 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.320 off a little lot of things. Yeah. But so I 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.400 just was working one of these overnight shifts where you 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:51.880 work the morning newscast basically, and you're staffed to say, okay, 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.200 you're the general assignment reporter, you may go cover you know, 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.520 one one one freezing ass morning. I was standing outside 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.120 assault depot because there of fear that there would be 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.000 assault shortage, you know, as the winter was coming, right, 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.040 you just do kind of whatever the producers decide this 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.760 show is going to need for that newscast, and breaking 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:12.920 news is a huge part of that of course. Right. 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.960 So I'm standing there in the newsroom not sure what 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.240 my assignment's going to be sometime around you know, close 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.240 to midnight, I want to say it was. And then 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:25.320 the police scanner right goes off with reports about an 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:28.520 incident at a town just sort of outside of Columbia, 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.920 about thirty miles north, just a smaller town called Moberly, 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.360 about this young man who's been taken to a hospital, 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:39.440 right because there's been an incident where he suffered some 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:43.039 sort of cardiac episode after being tasered by cops. And 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:46.280 then not long after that scanner, we get a phone 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:49.560 call from Stanley Harlan's mom, directed to the newsroom, and 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.680 she's screaming and crying, the police killed my son. The 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.400 police killed my son. And she's, as you can imagine 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:59.560 any parents, just absolutely, you know, completely losing her in 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.400 a way that I'll never forget the rawness of that, 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:04.640 you know that she was just screaming about how the 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.640 cops killed her son. And so as the reporter, what 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.000 you do, You hop in the car and you you know, 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.080 you race out there, You go right out there. So 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.160 I drove, you know, thirty miles eash north in the 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:17.160 middle of the night out to this town and arrived 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.680 on the scene and was being roped off, and you know, investigators, 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:22.560 State State police were on the scene because they were 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:26.320 there to investigate. And the thing that just struck me 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:30.280 right away was the family wasn't there. They had obviously 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:34.800 gone to the hospital at that point to identify the body, 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:38.000 do the things that come with you know, and in 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:42.040 custody death. But I was talking to neighbors who watched 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:45.560 this scene play out right in front of Stanley's house. 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:49.960 He had been followed by police home. They basically were 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:51.800 they were. The police were trying to say it was 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.160 a duy stop that was later sort of contested. But 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.920 he is gotten out of his car and Stanley, the 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:01.840 tragedy of it is, is on the phone with his 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.119 mom as he's getting pulled out of the car because 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:07.840 he wants her to come outside to make sure nothing 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:10.400 bad happens to him right in front of his house. 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:15.920 And so the officer that taser Stanley doesn't realize the 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.400 officer who pulled him over has allowed him to do this, 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:21.040 comes tries to take the phone out of his hand. 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:25.200 Stanley pulls away right because he thinks he's allowed to 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.480 be on the phone calling his mom, and very very 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.040 quickly after that, he puts his hands in the air 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.200 and says, you know, one of the officers, one of 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:36.600 the sergeants or the commanding officers on the scene, says, 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.800 just haser and he puts his hands in the air 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.199 and says, taser me. Why you're gonna taser me? And 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.120 they shot him in the chest with a taser for 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:48.800 thirty seconds, and he died right in front of his mom. 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:51.280 And one of the haunting sort of images of the 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:53.640 film I made is you could see his mother come 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:55.760 across the dash cam screen. It's sort of in her 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:59.560 pink robe as the incident happens a bit off screen. 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:04.079 But that phone call and then talking to those neighbors, 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.640 I think it was seven of them who said they 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.160 did not there was no violence here. He put his 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.320 hands in the air and said, why are you going 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:15.600 to taser me? And then they shot him, and then 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:21.120 you know, within minutes he was dead. And that became 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.560 for me as someone who was already leaning toward a 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:29.160 life outside of television news. I think I had kind 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.840 of I had been involved in acting as a kid. 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.640 I had a real fascination with long form. I wanted 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:38.040 to be a writer. I wanted to be a lot 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:39.920 of things. I did not want to be a local 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:44.160 TV news reporter. And so as that story progressed throughout 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.120 that fifth year of school that I had, I was 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.960 thinking about doing a big investigation into what really happened 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:54.640 to Stanley Harlan, and that investigation we ended up doing 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:58.320 several you know pieces for the TV station over the 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.000 course of the next you know year that I would 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.680 still in school. And then my mentor basically said, you 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:05.679 want to get into film, you want to do this 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:07.720 sort of thing. I think you have a documentary you 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:12.560 know right here, and that basically advice, that terrible advice, 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.520 sent me on the path to making a you know 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.320 film that took about four years to make that transformed 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.400 from being a story about a small town that was 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.880 grappling with police violence because there had been a history 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.600 sort of with that department of them going too far 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.840 until then they had finally now killed somebody. That spiraled 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.600 into the film that I ended up making, which was 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.560 this film about the one company that made tasers at 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:40.520 the time. You know, they're so much bigger than this now, 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.400 but at the time, this was the story of this company, 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.880 the only company who really made tasers for police, Axon. 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:56.440 Well, now, axon, Yeah, the critically acclaimed documentary Killing Them Safely, 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.679 and folks, this is not a plug nick to embarrass you, 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:02.400 to put you on the spy here, but this is 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:07.160 this is a pretty brutal and unrelenting piece of journalism 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:13.679 and documentary work. This also informs so many questions because again, 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:16.800 what we see is from that initial call, like you said, 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:20.840 in the middle of the night and the horrific things 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:27.280 happening to Stanley Harlan and his family. You keep finding 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:32.640 more and more disturbing stuff as you're digging in. So 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:35.480 maybe for this, now that we have the origin story, 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:40.280 maybe for people who are unfamiliar in the audience tonight, 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:47.160 could you explain what a taser is, how a taser works, 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:48.920 how did they become so common? 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.920 Yeah, So why this became a film about this company 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:57.920 was because I had heard of a taser. I had 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.760 seen the Hangover. I had watched you know, Galfanakis gets 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.160 shoot in the face and laughed like everybody else because 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.439 it's genuinely incredibly funny. It's a moment in a movie, right, 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:12.000 But the familiarity with it. What struck me was the 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:15.720 taser is basically shaped like a gun. It looks very 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.280 similar to what you would expect from a handgun. It 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.720 fires two probes, at least this model of the taser. 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:23.760 They're a bit more advanced now, but this model of 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:27.880 the taser became that made the company so successful. Basically 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.320 fire two probes kind of looked a little bit like 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.000 fish hooks attached to copper wires. And the idea is 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.360 that it delivers electric current inside of your body that 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.400 is at a threshold that is essentially affecting the nervous system, 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.960 so you are unable to control your muscles. That's what 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:50.280 I call it, muscular incopacitation, neuromuscular incapacitation. But the current 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:53.800 is safe enough to not affect your heart or electric 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.240 you to you right, People say that a lot. That's 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:58.520 not what happens when people die. The current is not 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:02.440 strong enough to electric cue someone. And the thing that 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.000 struck me though, was I had heard of a taser 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.120 and understood just the basics of how they worked. But 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.520 why I became so interested in the company was this, 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:17.959 adamans this no gray area, black and white. These weapons 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.240 cannot kill, not in a circumstance other than you shoot 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:24.680 somebody off of a ledge and they fall and they die. 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:27.640 Sure they can. Everybody knows you could fall off a 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.040 high ledge and be killed. But the electric current itself, 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:35.480 in no way, ever, under any circumstance, no doubt about it, 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:40.680 is not capable electrically, scientifically, not capable of killing someone. 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.400 I think, even to like, you know, someone that's uninitiated 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:45.080 in these kind of things, that just seems like a 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:50.040 really absurd claim, exactly me. And there's so many variations 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.679 and intervening circumstances and health conditions. I mean, it just 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.320 seems on its surface to be way outlandish to be 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.840 able to unequivocally say this with out any question. 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.199 Yes. And what drove me to the company was this 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:09.160 conflict of They were also the ones who wrote these 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:13.960 training programs and conducted this training for police officers. So 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.120 you have the one company with a monopoly on the 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.200 weapon telling tens of thousands, at that point, hundreds of 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:23.720 thousands of police officers across the country. These weapons, under 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.440 no circumstances other than lighting someone on fire accidentally because 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.640 they spark someone covered in gasoline, or some shooting someone 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.160 off of a ledge and they fall down. These weapons 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.160 do not kill in any circumstance. 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:42.520 That Nick, what's that one quote that the CEO Rick 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:47.680 says at multiple points they say, if the taser is harmful, 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.600 it's really the person using correct taser. 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.240 It was. It was essentially the quote you're thinking of. 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.680 Is a really important moment in the company's history. In 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.320 early two thousand and four, CBS News did a kind 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.000 of big investigation into tasers and into the companies. The 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:09.680 first deaths really started to pile up, and basically, you know, 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.240 White Andrews, the reporter is saying to Rick Smith, you're saying, 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.240 this is a coincidence that these people would have died anyway, 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.840 and he says, in every single case, these people would 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:25.160 have died anyway. And the implication being right, some other 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:29.640 drugs what became very controversial. I'm sure we'll talk about 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:33.720 excited delirium, some other condition. At the exact moment of 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:38.000 this tasering, right was responsible for somebody else's death. And 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.640 even as a twenty three year old with not a 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:44.280 lot of like worldly knowledge yet like making my way 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.800 in the world as a reporter, just felt like, okay, 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.520 the company with a monopoly on the weapon, doing all 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.920 of the training and telling these cops that it can 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:56.040 never kill doesn't seem like a promise or a claim 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.120 that is going to be able to hold up under scrutiny. 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.600 And I went to the company kind of half expecting 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:08.160 there was some misunderstanding that like, Okay, I get, maybe 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:11.480 these are like really safe and actually this isn't supposed 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.040 to have but maybe Stanley Harlan is like one of 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.920 these rare freak occurrences where like you can't shoot someone 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.320 in the chest with electricity for thirty seconds and not 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.240 expects there's a chance they could die. And that's not 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.320 how my one day that was supposed to be multiple days, 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.040 but the one day that I spent at the company 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.360 that I've ever been allowed to be inside, that one 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.000 day I was allowed to be inside really changed everything 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.400 because we couldn't get it, felt like we couldn't come 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.840 to some sort of common understanding of just like the 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.840 sky is blue right right, like. 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.920 A lot of the conversations feel the way we learn 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.360 about them in absolute and the way that we learn 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.360 about them and killing them safely. You're doing your due 0:16:55.440 --> 0:17:00.880 diligence as a reporter, and you're asking your refrain to question. 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.760 Sometimes you're saying like okay, again, could I get a 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.560 direct answer and the person you're speaking with I believe 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:11.480 Tuttle Yes? At that Why, Yes, Steve Tuttle is doing 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:15.399 kind of a matrix dodge or some parkour for every 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:20.720 direct question you're asking, and at times contradicting his previous statements. 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.080 Yeah. The thing you learn about corporate spin and why 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:26.600 this is a film really about the way in which 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:30.919 the film is about a lot of corporate rhetoric is 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:35.960 because companies are really good, I think, especially in controversial 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:40.240 industries at the sound bite. They know how to package 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:45.920 their messaging and their rhetoric into very concise talking points. 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:50.159 But if you just kind of unravel a story and 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:54.040 you ask to hear the story, which documentary film allows 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:57.679 you to do, right, I like writing magazine journalism and 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.919 doing profile journalism. Now I love this pot test we made, right. 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:03.480 These are long form stories and you ask someone to 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.640 tell you their story, and if you sit there long 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:10.520 enough to hear a story, you can't put that messaging 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:15.040 you know, so tightly into these neat talking points because 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.240 as you follow up, you're digging your own rabbit hole 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.520 that you can't escape from. Right, Because the narrative you've 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:27.840 created the mythology you've created doesn't actually match with the 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:30.720 reality that's right in front of your face, which is 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.520 sort of where the absurdity of the film in particular, 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:36.760 right that it's a lot of it structured around this 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:40.159 messaging it comes into play because it just becomes so 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:45.440 bizarre because we know what's real, and yet we're being 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:50.640 handheld and walked through this like, you know, incredibly elliptical 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:56.480 and bizarre, sort of like you know, dreamscape of the 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.080 story of just like who are you and how did 0:18:59.119 --> 0:18:59.640 you get here? 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.040 Hey, let's take a quick pause right here here a 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.359 work more sponsor, and then come back with more from 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:13.520 Nick and we're back. Let's jump right back into this conversation. 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.600 I want to talk about the way Taser was born, 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:21.840 because at least of the way you discuss it in 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.720 the podcast and the way I've seen you write about it, 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:28.399 it seems to have been born from a pretty noble goal, 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:35.240 and then when that goal is is it has to 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.800 be changed and altered a little bit because of commerce, 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.880 because of the needs of you know, building a company 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.119 and paying off loans and all these things that just 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.480 the capitalist system kind of does to everything and every 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.720 idea that comes around to it, it has to change, 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.000 and then there has to be a belief in it, 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:57.320 Like we're talking about almost a supreme belief in the reality. 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.560 Of it, a philosophical kind of shift a little bit, right, 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:01.159 because I mean, initially, wasn't it meant to be a 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.280 non lethal form of self defense, you know, to cut 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:05.680 down on gun violence? Yeah? 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:07.560 Can you tell us a little bit about how how 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.320 it became a thing? Like, really, why Taser International became 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:11.720 a thing? 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.320 Yeah, Yeah, that's a great question. One of the things 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:19.840 that I really emphasized about Rick Smith. He's the He 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.399 and his brother co foundered the company, but Rick is 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.280 the visionary. Tom his older brother kind of just like 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:27.000 you know, came along for the ride because it was 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:30.840 a family business. They used their dad's seed money. They 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.479 used their dad's money from a from a startup that 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.000 he'd invested in that did ended up doing quite well 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.439 to fund the original idea, which was we are going 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:44.639 to make a star Trek phaser. Because to high school acquaintances, 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.560 there's a lot of controversy because Rick had previously called 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:50.040 them his friends and then he fact checked it and 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:53.320 it's like they you know, maybe known each other a 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:55.920 little bit, you know, they were the guys. These guys 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:58.600 he calls his friends, end up being much older than 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.480 he was, and so they never really went to high 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:05.119 school together. But the story goes that Rick is basically 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:09.399 in business school and he has already graduated from Harvard. 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:13.320 He's an incredibly smart, accomplished young person from kind of 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.679 a one percenter suburb, right, who can be anything he 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.280 wants to be. Really, he's got that kind of he's 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:21.760 like made in a lab to be either like a 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:25.600 politician or like a successful businessman or you know, whatever. 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.639 He wants, whatever his heart desires, and he wants to 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:31.679 be like his dad. He wants to be entrepreneurial, he 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.960 wants something of his own. And so he's in business 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.440 school when these two acquaintances are killed in a road 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:43.760 rage shooting. And it's that shooting that Rick always cites 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:47.280 as the sort of catalyst for him understanding gun violence 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:52.040 and thinking about how many people are actually killed by guns. 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:54.879 And this is back in nineteen ninety one, So this is, 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:59.360 you know, thirty forty years ago now where the idea 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:04.199 of of having a weapon to defend yourself, right that 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:08.920 isn't a gun is like kind of this violent crime 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:12.680 era of America where people are like seriously considering, can 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:15.560 we do better than guns? Now, what I always say 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:19.560 is that, like, it's an incredibly naive concept because a 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.800 lot of people buy guns because they like guns. It's 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.800 not just to defend themselves, right, American gun culture is 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.560 bigger than just I need a revolver to protect myself 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:31.760 from a road rage shooting. 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.600 It's like phasing out car culture, you know, yeah, right right, 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.800 something that people are enthusiasts about, right, collectors, et cetera. 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:41.720 It's tied to identity for many people. 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:45.719 Yeah, But he has this twenty three year old, you know, 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:49.680 like moment of inspiration where he thinks, I'm going to 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:53.240 take my dad's money. I love star Trek, I want 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:57.119 to basically make He does some research and he finds 0:22:57.160 --> 0:22:59.960 there was this guy named Jack Kover who would a 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:02.720 originally invented the taser, which. 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:04.000 Was shout out to Taser Tron. 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.160 To shout out to Taser Tron, a kind of failed 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:12.040 company that had tried previously to bring tasers to market 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.800 as a self defense weapon. Is kind of a big 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:18.439 bulky weapon shaped like a flashlight. The key sort of 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:21.679