1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio. 5 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 6 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: my name is Noah. 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 3: super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fago. Most importantly, you 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. One of the memes 11 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 3: we were talking about before we started to roll today 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 3: was the old don't tase me bro meme. A lot 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 3: of people when they hear the question about whether or 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 3: not you've ever endured the pain of being tased, hearing 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 3: that question and may conjure images of Jackass style pranks. 16 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 3: But tragically, for many, many more people, this conversation will 17 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 3: immediately bring to mind over one thousand deaths at the 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,639 Speaker 3: hands of taser wielding law enforcement officers. 19 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 2: Doesn't it also kind of remind you that there were 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 2: two potential presidential elect candidates that were in skull and bones, 21 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 2: and somebody wanted to know about it and ended up 22 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: getting taste. Sorry, don't mean to derail. That's what reminds me. 23 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 3: Of sure, or the larger deeper conversation about non lethal 24 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 3: versus less than lethal, or the larger deeper conversation about 25 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 3: corruption in law enforcement. Alternatives to firearms. Look, tasers are 26 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 3: sold everywhere and affordable to the public. We'll get to 27 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 3: a lot of deep water here, but before we before 28 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 3: we really dive in, We've got to tell you, folks, 29 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 3: we recently listened to Lava for Good's new hit podcast 30 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 3: Absolute Season one. Taser Incorporated explores much much more than 31 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 3: the headlines regarding the story of tasers, especially the story 32 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 3: of tasers as told by the companies that manufacture tasers, 33 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 3: and we are always looking for primary sources. Today, we 34 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 3: are thrilled to be joined with the creator of the show, 35 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 3: the one and only Nick Bredini. Nick, thank you so 36 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 3: much for sharing some time with us today. 37 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,839 Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you, guys, I'm a huge fan. It's great 38 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 4: to be here. 39 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: Well, you know, we've collectively spent a lot of time 40 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: with your podcast, with other work you've done and writing 41 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: you've done, and we are filled with questions for you, 42 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: and it's tough to know really where to start, but 43 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: I think maybe a good place would be, well, we 44 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: want to know about you too, but I think I 45 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: think this question will get to who you are too. 46 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 2: Please tell us who was Stanley Harlan, what happened to him, 47 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 2: and what about his story inspired you, as a student 48 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: at the University of Missouri to create a documentary about him. 49 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. 50 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 3: Really take us back in time here, because this is 51 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 3: your origin story. This is the part of what launched 52 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 3: you into a decade plus investigation. So if you could 53 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 3: set the scene, You're a journalism student at University of 54 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 3: Missouri and you receive an assignment right just given to you, 55 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 3: and all they tell you at first is a man 56 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 3: has died while in the custody of law enforcement. 57 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 4: Yeah. So, I mean one of the unique things about 58 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 4: going to school at the University of Missouri, where I 59 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 4: also sort of happened to play basketball as sort of 60 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 4: like my fun fact about me is that I was 61 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 4: the worst player on a high major Division one basketball 62 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 4: team where I got dunked on and practice a bunch 63 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 4: of times. But it was nice to be cool for 64 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 4: a few years there. You still get the all the 65 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 4: part works that come with the starters, you know, in 66 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 4: terms of popularity. So that was fun. But I had 67 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 4: spent most all my life thinking about wanting to work 68 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 4: in basketball or sports to some degree, and had kind 69 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 4: of this plan where I was going to go, you know, 70 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 4: off to law school and be an agent, or I 71 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 4: was going to work for some NBA team. I really 72 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 4: grew up in sports, and when I went to Missouri, 73 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 4: the best degree you could get was a journalism degree. 74 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 4: And naturally, everybody who goes to the broadcast school then 75 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 4: the television news school is interested in sports, right They 76 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 4: all want to be the next analyst for ESPN, et cetera, 77 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 4: et cetera. And one of the unique things that happened 78 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 4: to me and why the journalism school at Missouri is 79 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 4: so great, is that you actually have to work as 80 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 4: a reporter for real local affiliates. If you're in the 81 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 4: magazine school, you have to work for a real magazine. 82 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 4: If you're in the newspaper, we have a you know, Columbia, 83 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 4: Missouri has its own you know, city newspaper that's staffed 84 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 4: by student reporters and their editors are prof Basically that's 85 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 4: true of the NBC affiliate as well. The local NBC 86 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 4: affiliate is staffed by professors who are the you know, 87 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 4: news directors and news managers, but the reporters are students, 88 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 4: and I, because I was playing basketball, had to basically 89 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 4: push off a lot of my advanced level classes that conflicted, 90 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 4: you know, with my schedule until I was done playing basketball. 91 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 4: So I got this like fifth year student experience where 92 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 4: I was hanging out basically doing nothing but partying and 93 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 4: going to the news room basically. And you've dunked a 94 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 4: few times. I do, but in my best days, with 95 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 4: enough of a running start, I could definitely dunk just 96 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 4: a little bit, just enough in warm ups to show 97 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 4: off a little lot of things. Yeah. But so I 98 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 4: just was working one of these overnight shifts where you 99 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 4: work the morning newscast basically, and you're staffed to say, okay, 100 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 4: you're the general assignment reporter, you may go cover you know, 101 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 4: one one one freezing ass morning. I was standing outside 102 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 4: assault depot because there of fear that there would be 103 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 4: assault shortage, you know, as the winter was coming, right, 104 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 4: you just do kind of whatever the producers decide this 105 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 4: show is going to need for that newscast, and breaking 106 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 4: news is a huge part of that of course. Right. 107 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 4: So I'm standing there in the newsroom not sure what 108 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 4: my assignment's going to be sometime around you know, close 109 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 4: to midnight, I want to say it was. And then 110 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 4: the police scanner right goes off with reports about an 111 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 4: incident at a town just sort of outside of Columbia, 112 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 4: about thirty miles north, just a smaller town called Moberly, 113 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 4: about this young man who's been taken to a hospital, 114 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 4: right because there's been an incident where he suffered some 115 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 4: sort of cardiac episode after being tasered by cops. And 116 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 4: then not long after that scanner, we get a phone 117 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 4: call from Stanley Harlan's mom, directed to the newsroom, and 118 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 4: she's screaming and crying, the police killed my son. The 119 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 4: police killed my son. And she's, as you can imagine 120 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 4: any parents, just absolutely, you know, completely losing her in 121 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 4: a way that I'll never forget the rawness of that, 122 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 4: you know that she was just screaming about how the 123 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 4: cops killed her son. And so as the reporter, what 124 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 4: you do, You hop in the car and you you know, 125 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 4: you race out there, You go right out there. So 126 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 4: I drove, you know, thirty miles eash north in the 127 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 4: middle of the night out to this town and arrived 128 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 4: on the scene and was being roped off, and you know, investigators, 129 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 4: State State police were on the scene because they were 130 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 4: there to investigate. And the thing that just struck me 131 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 4: right away was the family wasn't there. They had obviously 132 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 4: gone to the hospital at that point to identify the body, 133 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 4: do the things that come with you know, and in 134 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 4: custody death. But I was talking to neighbors who watched 135 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 4: this scene play out right in front of Stanley's house. 136 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 4: He had been followed by police home. They basically were 137 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 4: they were. The police were trying to say it was 138 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 4: a duy stop that was later sort of contested. But 139 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 4: he is gotten out of his car and Stanley, the 140 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 4: tragedy of it is, is on the phone with his 141 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,119 Speaker 4: mom as he's getting pulled out of the car because 142 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 4: he wants her to come outside to make sure nothing 143 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 4: bad happens to him right in front of his house. 144 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 4: And so the officer that taser Stanley doesn't realize the 145 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 4: officer who pulled him over has allowed him to do this, 146 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 4: comes tries to take the phone out of his hand. 147 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 4: Stanley pulls away right because he thinks he's allowed to 148 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 4: be on the phone calling his mom, and very very 149 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 4: quickly after that, he puts his hands in the air 150 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 4: and says, you know, one of the officers, one of 151 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 4: the sergeants or the commanding officers on the scene, says, 152 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 4: just haser and he puts his hands in the air 153 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 4: and says, taser me. Why you're gonna taser me? And 154 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 4: they shot him in the chest with a taser for 155 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 4: thirty seconds, and he died right in front of his mom. 156 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 4: And one of the haunting sort of images of the 157 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 4: film I made is you could see his mother come 158 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 4: across the dash cam screen. It's sort of in her 159 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 4: pink robe as the incident happens a bit off screen. 160 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 4: But that phone call and then talking to those neighbors, 161 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 4: I think it was seven of them who said they 162 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 4: did not there was no violence here. He put his 163 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 4: hands in the air and said, why are you going 164 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 4: to taser me? And then they shot him, and then 165 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 4: you know, within minutes he was dead. And that became 166 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 4: for me as someone who was already leaning toward a 167 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 4: life outside of television news. I think I had kind 168 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 4: of I had been involved in acting as a kid. 169 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 4: I had a real fascination with long form. I wanted 170 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 4: to be a writer. I wanted to be a lot 171 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 4: of things. I did not want to be a local 172 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 4: TV news reporter. And so as that story progressed throughout 173 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 4: that fifth year of school that I had, I was 174 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 4: thinking about doing a big investigation into what really happened 175 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 4: to Stanley Harlan, and that investigation we ended up doing 176 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 4: several you know pieces for the TV station over the 177 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 4: course of the next you know year that I would 178 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 4: still in school. And then my mentor basically said, you 179 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 4: want to get into film, you want to do this 180 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 4: sort of thing. I think you have a documentary you 181 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 4: know right here, and that basically advice, that terrible advice, 182 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 4: sent me on the path to making a you know 183 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 4: film that took about four years to make that transformed 184 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 4: from being a story about a small town that was 185 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 4: grappling with police violence because there had been a history 186 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 4: sort of with that department of them going too far 187 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 4: until then they had finally now killed somebody. That spiraled 188 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 4: into the film that I ended up making, which was 189 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 4: this film about the one company that made tasers at 190 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 4: the time. You know, they're so much bigger than this now, 191 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 4: but at the time, this was the story of this company, 192 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 4: the only company who really made tasers for police, Axon. 193 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 3: Well, now, axon, Yeah, the critically acclaimed documentary Killing Them Safely, 194 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 3: and folks, this is not a plug nick to embarrass you, 195 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 3: to put you on the spy here, but this is 196 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 3: this is a pretty brutal and unrelenting piece of journalism 197 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 3: and documentary work. This also informs so many questions because again, 198 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 3: what we see is from that initial call, like you said, 199 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: in the middle of the night and the horrific things 200 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 3: happening to Stanley Harlan and his family. You keep finding 201 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 3: more and more disturbing stuff as you're digging in. So 202 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: maybe for this, now that we have the origin story, 203 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 3: maybe for people who are unfamiliar in the audience tonight, 204 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: could you explain what a taser is, how a taser works, 205 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 3: how did they become so common? 206 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, So why this became a film about this company 207 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 4: was because I had heard of a taser. I had 208 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 4: seen the Hangover. I had watched you know, Galfanakis gets 209 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 4: shoot in the face and laughed like everybody else because 210 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 4: it's genuinely incredibly funny. It's a moment in a movie, right, 211 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 4: But the familiarity with it. What struck me was the 212 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 4: taser is basically shaped like a gun. It looks very 213 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 4: similar to what you would expect from a handgun. It 214 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 4: fires two probes, at least this model of the taser. 215 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 4: They're a bit more advanced now, but this model of 216 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 4: the taser became that made the company so successful. Basically 217 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 4: fire two probes kind of looked a little bit like 218 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 4: fish hooks attached to copper wires. And the idea is 219 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 4: that it delivers electric current inside of your body that 220 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 4: is at a threshold that is essentially affecting the nervous system, 221 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 4: so you are unable to control your muscles. That's what 222 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 4: I call it, muscular incopacitation, neuromuscular incapacitation. But the current 223 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 4: is safe enough to not affect your heart or electric 224 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 4: you to you right, People say that a lot. That's 225 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 4: not what happens when people die. The current is not 226 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 4: strong enough to electric cue someone. And the thing that 227 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 4: struck me though, was I had heard of a taser 228 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 4: and understood just the basics of how they worked. But 229 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 4: why I became so interested in the company was this, 230 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 4: adamans this no gray area, black and white. These weapons 231 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 4: cannot kill, not in a circumstance other than you shoot 232 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 4: somebody off of a ledge and they fall and they die. 233 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 4: Sure they can. Everybody knows you could fall off a 234 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 4: high ledge and be killed. But the electric current itself, 235 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 4: in no way, ever, under any circumstance, no doubt about it, 236 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 4: is not capable electrically, scientifically, not capable of killing someone. 237 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 5: I think, even to like, you know, someone that's uninitiated 238 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 5: in these kind of things, that just seems like a 239 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 5: really absurd claim, exactly me. And there's so many variations 240 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 5: and intervening circumstances and health conditions. I mean, it just 241 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 5: seems on its surface to be way outlandish to be 242 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 5: able to unequivocally say this with out any question. 243 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 4: Yes. And what drove me to the company was this 244 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 4: conflict of They were also the ones who wrote these 245 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 4: training programs and conducted this training for police officers. So 246 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 4: you have the one company with a monopoly on the 247 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 4: weapon telling tens of thousands, at that point, hundreds of 248 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 4: thousands of police officers across the country. These weapons, under 249 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 4: no circumstances other than lighting someone on fire accidentally because 250 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 4: they spark someone covered in gasoline, or some shooting someone 251 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 4: off of a ledge and they fall down. These weapons 252 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 4: do not kill in any circumstance. 253 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 3: That Nick, what's that one quote that the CEO Rick 254 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 3: says at multiple points they say, if the taser is harmful, 255 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 3: it's really the person using correct taser. 256 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 4: It was. It was essentially the quote you're thinking of. 257 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 4: Is a really important moment in the company's history. In 258 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 4: early two thousand and four, CBS News did a kind 259 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 4: of big investigation into tasers and into the companies. The 260 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 4: first deaths really started to pile up, and basically, you know, 261 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 4: White Andrews, the reporter is saying to Rick Smith, you're saying, 262 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 4: this is a coincidence that these people would have died anyway, 263 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 4: and he says, in every single case, these people would 264 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 4: have died anyway. And the implication being right, some other 265 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 4: drugs what became very controversial. I'm sure we'll talk about 266 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 4: excited delirium, some other condition. At the exact moment of 267 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 4: this tasering, right was responsible for somebody else's death. And 268 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 4: even as a twenty three year old with not a 269 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 4: lot of like worldly knowledge yet like making my way 270 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 4: in the world as a reporter, just felt like, okay, 271 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 4: the company with a monopoly on the weapon, doing all 272 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 4: of the training and telling these cops that it can 273 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 4: never kill doesn't seem like a promise or a claim 274 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 4: that is going to be able to hold up under scrutiny. 275 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 4: And I went to the company kind of half expecting 276 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 4: there was some misunderstanding that like, Okay, I get, maybe 277 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 4: these are like really safe and actually this isn't supposed 278 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 4: to have but maybe Stanley Harlan is like one of 279 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 4: these rare freak occurrences where like you can't shoot someone 280 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 4: in the chest with electricity for thirty seconds and not 281 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 4: expects there's a chance they could die. And that's not 282 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 4: how my one day that was supposed to be multiple days, 283 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 4: but the one day that I spent at the company 284 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 4: that I've ever been allowed to be inside, that one 285 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 4: day I was allowed to be inside really changed everything 286 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 4: because we couldn't get it, felt like we couldn't come 287 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 4: to some sort of common understanding of just like the 288 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 4: sky is blue right right, like. 289 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 3: A lot of the conversations feel the way we learn 290 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 3: about them in absolute and the way that we learn 291 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 3: about them and killing them safely. You're doing your due 292 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 3: diligence as a reporter, and you're asking your refrain to question. 293 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 3: Sometimes you're saying like okay, again, could I get a 294 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 3: direct answer and the person you're speaking with I believe 295 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 3: Tuttle Yes? At that Why, Yes, Steve Tuttle is doing 296 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 3: kind of a matrix dodge or some parkour for every 297 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 3: direct question you're asking, and at times contradicting his previous statements. 298 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. The thing you learn about corporate spin and why 299 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 4: this is a film really about the way in which 300 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 4: the film is about a lot of corporate rhetoric is 301 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 4: because companies are really good, I think, especially in controversial 302 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 4: industries at the sound bite. They know how to package 303 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 4: their messaging and their rhetoric into very concise talking points. 304 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 4: But if you just kind of unravel a story and 305 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 4: you ask to hear the story, which documentary film allows 306 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 4: you to do, right, I like writing magazine journalism and 307 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 4: doing profile journalism. Now I love this pot test we made, right. 308 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 4: These are long form stories and you ask someone to 309 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 4: tell you their story, and if you sit there long 310 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 4: enough to hear a story, you can't put that messaging 311 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 4: you know, so tightly into these neat talking points because 312 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 4: as you follow up, you're digging your own rabbit hole 313 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 4: that you can't escape from. Right, Because the narrative you've 314 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 4: created the mythology you've created doesn't actually match with the 315 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 4: reality that's right in front of your face, which is 316 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 4: sort of where the absurdity of the film in particular, 317 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 4: right that it's a lot of it structured around this 318 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 4: messaging it comes into play because it just becomes so 319 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 4: bizarre because we know what's real, and yet we're being 320 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 4: handheld and walked through this like, you know, incredibly elliptical 321 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 4: and bizarre, sort of like you know, dreamscape of the 322 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 4: story of just like who are you and how did 323 00:18:59,119 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 4: you get here? 324 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 5: Hey, let's take a quick pause right here here a 325 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 5: work more sponsor, and then come back with more from 326 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 5: Nick and we're back. Let's jump right back into this conversation. 327 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 2: I want to talk about the way Taser was born, 328 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: because at least of the way you discuss it in 329 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 2: the podcast and the way I've seen you write about it, 330 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 2: it seems to have been born from a pretty noble goal, 331 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 2: and then when that goal is is it has to 332 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: be changed and altered a little bit because of commerce, 333 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 2: because of the needs of you know, building a company 334 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 2: and paying off loans and all these things that just 335 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 2: the capitalist system kind of does to everything and every 336 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 2: idea that comes around to it, it has to change, 337 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: and then there has to be a belief in it, 338 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: Like we're talking about almost a supreme belief in the reality. 339 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 5: Of it, a philosophical kind of shift a little bit, right, 340 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 5: because I mean, initially, wasn't it meant to be a 341 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 5: non lethal form of self defense, you know, to cut 342 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 5: down on gun violence? Yeah? 343 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about how how 344 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 2: it became a thing? Like, really, why Taser International became 345 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 2: a thing? 346 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, that's a great question. One of the things 347 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 4: that I really emphasized about Rick Smith. He's the He 348 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 4: and his brother co foundered the company, but Rick is 349 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 4: the visionary. Tom his older brother kind of just like 350 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 4: you know, came along for the ride because it was 351 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 4: a family business. They used their dad's seed money. They 352 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,479 Speaker 4: used their dad's money from a from a startup that 353 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 4: he'd invested in that did ended up doing quite well 354 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 4: to fund the original idea, which was we are going 355 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 4: to make a star Trek phaser. Because to high school acquaintances, 356 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 4: there's a lot of controversy because Rick had previously called 357 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 4: them his friends and then he fact checked it and 358 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 4: it's like they you know, maybe known each other a 359 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 4: little bit, you know, they were the guys. These guys 360 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 4: he calls his friends, end up being much older than 361 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 4: he was, and so they never really went to high 362 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 4: school together. But the story goes that Rick is basically 363 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 4: in business school and he has already graduated from Harvard. 364 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 4: He's an incredibly smart, accomplished young person from kind of 365 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 4: a one percenter suburb, right, who can be anything he 366 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 4: wants to be. Really, he's got that kind of he's 367 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 4: like made in a lab to be either like a 368 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 4: politician or like a successful businessman or you know, whatever. 369 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 4: He wants, whatever his heart desires, and he wants to 370 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 4: be like his dad. He wants to be entrepreneurial, he 371 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 4: wants something of his own. And so he's in business 372 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 4: school when these two acquaintances are killed in a road 373 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 4: rage shooting. And it's that shooting that Rick always cites 374 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 4: as the sort of catalyst for him understanding gun violence 375 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 4: and thinking about how many people are actually killed by guns. 376 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 4: And this is back in nineteen ninety one, So this is, 377 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 4: you know, thirty forty years ago now where the idea 378 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 4: of of having a weapon to defend yourself, right that 379 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 4: isn't a gun is like kind of this violent crime 380 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 4: era of America where people are like seriously considering, can 381 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 4: we do better than guns? Now, what I always say 382 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 4: is that, like, it's an incredibly naive concept because a 383 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 4: lot of people buy guns because they like guns. It's 384 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 4: not just to defend themselves, right, American gun culture is 385 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 4: bigger than just I need a revolver to protect myself 386 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 4: from a road rage shooting. 387 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 5: It's like phasing out car culture, you know, yeah, right right, 388 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 5: something that people are enthusiasts about, right, collectors, et cetera. 389 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 3: It's tied to identity for many people. 390 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, But he has this twenty three year old, you know, 391 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 4: like moment of inspiration where he thinks, I'm going to 392 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 4: take my dad's money. I love star Trek, I want 393 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 4: to basically make He does some research and he finds 394 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 4: there was this guy named Jack Kover who would a 395 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 4: originally invented the taser, which. 396 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: Was shout out to Taser Tron. 397 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 4: To shout out to Taser Tron, a kind of failed 398 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 4: company that had tried previously to bring tasers to market 399 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 4: as a self defense weapon. Is kind of a big 400 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 4: bulky weapon shaped like a flashlight. The key sort of 401 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 4: red tape. There is that it used gunpowder to fire 402 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 4: those probes, and so it was regulated like a firearm, 403 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 4: and a lot of people, basically a lot of average 404 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 4: citizens needed to go through a similar process to buying 405 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 4: a firearm if they wanted one. They were just too 406 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 4: expensive and too clunky and too sort of ahead of 407 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 4: its time to compete seriously in a self defense market. 408 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 4: But Rick has an idea to work with Kover to 409 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 4: license that technology from him to create a taser that 410 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 4: uses compressed nitrogen to fire, thinking they'll avoid all the 411 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 4: sort of ATF regulation that comes if they do that, 412 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,479 Speaker 4: and they're just like, the two guys, it's like this 413 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 4: great story about they're in Rick's you know, parents camper, 414 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,719 Speaker 4: and they're like they're tweaking this thing in this just like, 415 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 4: you know, great entrepreneurial origin story. We're gonna change the 416 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 4: world in this you know, desert camper that we're in together, 417 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 4: and it's just an absolute disaster, right Like, Rick tells 418 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 4: this great story that's in our podcast. Not to spoil it, 419 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 4: but it's one of my favorites where they hire out 420 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 4: a call center and they do a promo on the 421 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 4: local news and Phoenix back in nineteen ninety four, when 422 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 4: they're going to launch the company, and they are basically 423 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 4: expecting a flood of calls to come in ordering this 424 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 4: taser when people see it demonstrate it live on TV, 425 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 4: and like nobody calls. The only call, he says, he 426 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 4: gets is from his mom the entire night, and she's like, 427 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 4: how's it going, Ricky? 428 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 2: You know? 429 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 4: And this is just like this incredibly human moment of 430 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 4: a young entrepreneur with this grandiose idea where at the 431 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 4: very first meeting, the very first board meeting of his 432 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 4: company with his parents and his brother, says, we're gonna 433 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 4: make the bullet obsolete, right, that's the real ambition, and 434 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 4: like they are right from the start. Pardon my French, 435 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 4: but like it's that bad. And so they spend years 436 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 4: trying to figure out how to save this idea, and 437 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 4: that ultimately leads to police because the idea of a 438 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 4: taser is a natural fit in policing, and they the 439 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 4: real key moment in the company's history is realizing the 440 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 4: original taser that Jackober had developed and then Rick Smith 441 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 4: tried to perfect just wasn't strong enough for police to 442 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 4: take seriously. And Rick makes a fateful choice between sort 443 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 4: of the company going under or building a taser that 444 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 4: is strong enough to basically take law enforcement by storm, 445 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 4: and he chooses the stronger taser. They engineer this weapon, 446 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 4: and that's about you know, that's roughly nineteen ninety nine, 447 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 4: and they just within five years the company had gone 448 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 4: from near bankruptcy to being worth about one point nine 449 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 4: billion dollars. 450 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 3: And I would say at this point, as well, I 451 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 3: love the way we're exploring the SNICK. I would say 452 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 3: one thing that stands out to me here is that 453 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 3: Rick Smith. Yes, ambitious, yes, quite intelligent, and as we'll find, 454 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 3: quite litigious. But Rick Smith is above all a storyteller 455 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 3: as well. And he is you know, anybody familiar with 456 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,719 Speaker 3: a C suite or upper management, A lot of it 457 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 3: is kind of storytelling, no offense. 458 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 5: Smith making, creating the more of something. 459 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 3: The storytelling here seems to be a shift not just 460 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 3: in goal, but a shift in narrative. Right, what is 461 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 3: the story I tell to law enforcement? Let me find 462 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 3: a story that will be championed by police and elios alike. 463 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 5: Well, I was going to say too, I mean, before 464 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 5: that that kind of crossover moment that you're getting to, 465 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 5: all the ad campaigns around these devices were like for 466 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 5: taking hiking, you know, like this sport model with like 467 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 5: a with with a included fanny pack, you know exactly. 468 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 5: This is all on their website on the accident, there's 469 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 5: a timeline there and it shows a lot of ads 470 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 5: and it's kind of comical. 471 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 4: They thought that their mom was going to be one 472 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 4: of their best marketers because they imagined like tupperware parties 473 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 4: of like women telling stories about each other. 474 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 5: Right. 475 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 4: Because this, this is ultimately why I think techno optimism 476 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 4: can be really dangerous, is because you have a really 477 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 4: bright person who's capable of a lot. Like I said, 478 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 4: he could have been anything he wanted, but he doesn't 479 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 4: have any of the context of violent crime when he 480 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 4: jumps into this business. In his world, these two guys 481 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 4: from the rich suburb that he's from are gunned down, 482 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 4: and God, that should not happen in our gated community, essentially, right, 483 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 4: And I'm sure I have not looked at this specifically 484 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 4: because I didn't want to make that much of a 485 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 4: point of it, But there was probably a shooting in 486 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 4: North Phoenix the same weekend that happens all the time 487 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 4: to some disenfranchised community in some place that he has 488 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 4: no right connection to and in his thinking is he's 489 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 4: literally said, I was going to go to Arizona and 490 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 4: scratch and claw and dig, and I thought there would 491 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 4: be gold in those hills. And he's talked about the 492 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 4: riches that should bestow a benevolence creator of a device 493 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 4: like the taser. Right, this is a money making operation, 494 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 4: is a business opportunity, but you're talking about public safety. 495 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 4: You're talking about violence that impacts communities and ways he 496 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 4: had no understanding of. And so of course they failed 497 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 4: early on because trying to just say, well, the reason 498 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 4: we haven't solved gun violence is because governments are too 499 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 4: corrupt and politicians are too stupid, and nobody has really 500 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 4: thought about this in my genius Harvard way. Yet we'll 501 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 4: just give everybody Captain Kirk's phaser and then nobody will 502 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 4: shoot each other anymore. It's like it's a little more 503 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 4: complicated than that, my man. You know, you can't just write, 504 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 4: like just decide one day to solve gun violence. 505 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 3: Especially the police that are going to end up being 506 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 3: your largest customers and the politicians that are that are 507 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 3: going to end up being your some of your largest benefactors. 508 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 3: If you're telling that story, you're kind of dunking on 509 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 3: those guys. 510 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 4: You know what I mean, Yeah, it was one hundred percent. 511 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 4: It was the idea that technology. The theme of this 512 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 4: story of fifteen years of covering it is that we 513 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 4: have such an instinct to treat the entrepreneur, to treat 514 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 4: the business person, to treat technology as the hero, right, 515 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 4: the idea for as much as we love science fiction 516 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 4: as a culture and as many you know, I robots 517 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 4: and AI movies as we can come up with, we 518 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 4: don't don't take seriously enough the repercussions that can come 519 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 4: when you just basically do the Silicon Valley thing of 520 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 4: move fast and break things like they moved fast and 521 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 4: broke things modeled after Silicon Valley innovation, and that they 522 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 4: broke cannot be repaired. 523 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 5: You're talking about the stuff, you know, as they it's 524 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 5: rolled out with such a kind of lack of foresight 525 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 5: that it's staggering. And this is a similar situation, if 526 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 5: not the exact same. You're totally right. 527 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about that business pivot from a self 528 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: defense mechanism to a police weapon, something that can be 529 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 2: on the side of you know, in the in the 530 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 2: vision there at Taser international of every police officer that 531 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 2: walks the planet, that shift, and then the need to 532 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: make it more powerful to take down you know, larger 533 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: guys in order to just impress you know, officers like 534 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 2: law enforcement officers who can then watch a demonstration and 535 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: then say, oh wow, yeah, that would take down on somebody. 536 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 2: For sure, it took down our biggest guy, that shift. 537 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 2: And then the need to sell to more and more 538 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: and more and more police departments because you're selling these individually, 539 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 2: you know, as packages to police departments. The need to 540 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 2: do that to make it more powerful. It feels like 541 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: that is where maybe the actual problem arises because of 542 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: the strength of the actual current that's going through there. 543 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: But then also the concept that this is to be 544 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 2: used to take down someone that a police officer is pursuing, right, 545 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 2: someone that a suspect that an officer believes needs to 546 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 2: be taken down. That an officer would have used perhaps 547 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 2: a side arm like a forty five or a nine 548 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: millimeter to incapacitate that person. Now I can shock them. 549 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 2: How in your exploration, how has the usage of a 550 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 2: taser by police officers change or did it change or 551 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 2: was it always the same, or just how are they 552 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 2: used in the field. 553 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 4: This is the most genius thing that they did this case. 554 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 4: They took the marketing and rhetoric of the original idea 555 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 4: of an alternative to guns, and that is the public 556 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 4: facing city council pitch idea, Right, hey, this is going 557 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 4: to reduce police shootings because what we have is an 558 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 4: electric weapon that can stop somebody. They didn't say it 559 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 4: was effective as a gun, it's not like they said that, 560 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 4: but the idea would be, you can prevent shootings now 561 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 4: because we can control violent and dangerous people with this taser. 562 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 4: But the marketing to police, the sort of way in 563 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 4: which this weapon took off. There was no outside advertising 564 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 4: to police. This was what they called the Master Instructor program, 565 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 4: where they basically hired off do cops who in their 566 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 4: capacity as law enforcement officers, would take the company written 567 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 4: training material, take the device, and Rick himself and some 568 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 4: of the marketing people were brilliant at going on their 569 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 4: own grassroots campaign. They would go department to department in 570 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 4: the early days, and they would show these cops. They 571 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 4: would walk in and say, bring us your toughest guy, 572 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 4: bring us the stud bring us whoever, and all the 573 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 4: cops would watch as their friend who was the badass 574 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 4: right would just fall and scream. And I tried for 575 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 4: years to find videos of anybody who could sit there 576 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 4: and take it without yelling and screaming as loud as 577 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 4: they can. And this grassroots marketing demonstration for cops directly 578 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 4: was how cops believed the taser would be used, because 579 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 4: the pitch was this weapon runs the gamut of use 580 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 4: of force. You no longer have to put your hands 581 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 4: on people who don't want to sign the back of 582 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 4: a speeding ticket for you because they're arguing with you, 583 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 4: they're not being compliant. Just taser them, get them in 584 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 4: a handcuffs, and deal with it later. But it's like, 585 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 4: it's it's it was. It's genuinely hilarious to watch all 586 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 4: of these cops lose their sh as there being, you know, 587 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 4: tasered in these controlled settings where everything is designed. Many shocks, 588 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 4: many of these demonstrative shocks were for less than a second. 589 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 4: They would later call these human studies. They would later 590 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 4: call these proof of the taser safety. But you're talking 591 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 4: about cops who were basically shocked for a second or less, 592 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 4: many of them, and they would go down and everybody 593 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 4: would laugh and The idea of the impression you would 594 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 4: get was maybe that hurt for that second, but everybody's fine. Now, 595 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 4: we're all laughing about it. And when I go off 596 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 4: into the field, when I go use this weapon on 597 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 4: real people out there, the same thing is going to happen. 598 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 4: If they're going to give me attitude and not going 599 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 4: to comply with my orders, I met taser them, teach 600 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 4: them a and they'll be fine at the end of 601 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 4: the day, and I'll get the result. I want now 602 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 4: to the politicians, to the city councils who this was 603 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 4: pitched to, the idea was, you need to spend all 604 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 4: this money. You need to spend money on a weapon 605 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 4: that's twice as expensive in a lot of instances as 606 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 4: this as their actual guns, right because it's going to 607 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 4: reduce the deadly force or the real violence that an 608 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 4: officer faces. And what happened was it disonned the cops 609 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 4: who would actually use them, so they felt comfortable using 610 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 4: them in all manners of situations, to the point that 611 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 4: criminologists would later claim the phrase lazy cops syndrome to 612 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 4: describe the sort of epidemic of cops who were willing 613 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,879 Speaker 4: to just tazer somebody for whatever reason they saw fit 614 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 4: and because the weapon did have risks that the cops 615 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 4: were not aware of based on their training, then people 616 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 4: like Bryce Masters, like Stanley Harlan, these people then were 617 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 4: put into situations where they were hurt or killed in 618 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 4: situations where they never really should have had their lives 619 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 4: put at risk, you know. 620 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 5: I mean, I've been seeing I think this is a 621 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 5: positive thing, a real uptick in these lazy cop kind 622 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 5: of videos circulating, you know, on on streaming sites, on 623 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,479 Speaker 5: you know, TikTok on Instagram and stuff, Folks taking cops 624 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,760 Speaker 5: to task with their dash cams and kind of refusing 625 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 5: to comply and things like that. And I think for 626 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 5: refusing to comply in a positive way where cops are overstepping, 627 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 5: you know, what they're supposed to be able to do, 628 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 5: and how quickly that taser comes out is staggering as 629 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 5: a threat, as a you know, a way of forcing 630 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 5: you know, compliance in situations where they're already overstepping. I 631 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 5: also want to add, I maybe this is obvious to everybody, 632 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 5: but I did not think about this until this conversation. 633 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 5: But you can get tasers on Amazon like tons of 634 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 5: different like rhinestone, be dazzled ones. Not that that's neither 635 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 5: here nor there necessarily for the cop discussion, but maybe, yeah, 636 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 5: could you maybe respond to a little bit about these 637 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 5: lazy cop videos that are kind of making the rounds 638 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,720 Speaker 5: and I'm just seeing more and more of and getting 639 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 5: more and more kind of freaked out about the quickness 640 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 5: with which they reached for the taser. 641 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, there is a real difference between the civilian 642 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 4: taser and the cop taser. That's important to note because 643 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 4: civilian tasers, the whole point was that they actually didn't 644 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 4: work that well. And that's why, you know, if you're 645 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,919 Speaker 4: trying to kind of think about defense weaponrylike they never 646 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 4: really took off that much with civilians because the marketing 647 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 4: didn't click. And also in practicality, they're not necessarily the 648 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 4: best weapons for like if you're truly being attacked, you know, 649 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 4: in this situation, and that was true of police too. 650 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 4: The weapons are most effective in these static situations of 651 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 4: non compliance. If you're in a real fight in you're 652 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 4: a cop and you pull your taser out, especially these 653 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 4: older models where there was one shot deal and you miss, 654 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 4: you're in big trouble, right, Like, that's that's where things 655 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 4: do escalate. And one of the most fascinating things that 656 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 4: happened in the in the you know, long decade two 657 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 4: decade long story of the taser is that the company 658 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 4: eventually did sort of very surreptitiously reduce the charge of 659 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 4: modern of the newer models of tasers, which started leading 660 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 4: to more police shootings because cops were pulling tasers in 661 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 4: situations where there was a fight and the taser wouldn't work, 662 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 4: and then that would escalate to an actual shooting. And 663 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 4: that's why they're not necessarily great civilian self defense weapons. 664 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 4: When you're in a fight, you want to know you're 665 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 4: going to win, right, And that's that's why, like some 666 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 4: people are more comfortable just taking their chances with Mason 667 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,280 Speaker 4: running away than you know, trying to fire a taser 668 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 4: and miss. But the lazy cop syndrome things directly tied 669 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 4: to the fact that the weapons are most effective and 670 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 4: get the results you want, the lower the level of 671 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 4: use of worce fine argue with you guys, and you 672 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 4: two you guys are pulling me over and I'm just 673 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 4: you know, kind of not wanting to, you know, like 674 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 4: do what you say or whatever it is you taser me, 675 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 4: I'm like standing still usually, but if you pull me 676 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 4: out of the car and I'm ready to fight and 677 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 4: I'm coming at you and you try to taser me 678 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,879 Speaker 4: and you miss, the next thought in a cops mind 679 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 4: is this guy can get my gun. And if we're 680 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 4: in a situation where this guy can get my gun, 681 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 4: that's that skin that is dangerous for cops. And so 682 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 4: it became just the way they were used because the 683 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 4: emphasis in training was about don't put your hands on 684 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 4: people anymore, don't do the verbal judo skills that you've learned, 685 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 4: don't waste your time taser these guys. Now, that's evolved 686 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 4: quite a bit in twenty years because we saw departments 687 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 4: have to change their policies when bad started to happen. 688 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 4: That's the sad thing is that bad things had to 689 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 4: happen in order for the weapons to be given the 690 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 4: wait in the seriousness of which they're capable of. 691 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 2: And before we move on, let's take a word from 692 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 2: our sponsor and we'll be right back. And where you're back. 693 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 3: Let's go back to the hypothetical situation you just set 694 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 3: up here. Nick you're pulled over by three, I don't 695 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 3: think we would be very great cops, guys, but you're 696 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 3: pulled over by the three of us. Slide Yeah, we're 697 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 3: for some reason in the same car. This sounds like 698 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 3: a scenario or a safety study that Taser International as 699 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 3: it was being called back then, would not have approved. 700 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 3: One of the astonishing things we see over and over 701 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 3: again is that the story that Taser tells already, right, 702 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 3: telling a couple of different stories to a couple of 703 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 3: different audiences. But they're also kind of telling stories to 704 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 3: any governmental agency that would have conducted some sort of 705 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,760 Speaker 3: review or at least like a four point thirty pm 706 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 3: on a Friday check in. So can you tell us 707 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 3: a little bit more about why there were not real 708 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 3: reviews by governmental agencies or how this company managed to 709 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 3: conduct its own test, its own quote unquote studies on 710 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 3: its own products. What happened there. 711 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 4: It's really one of the fascinating things to me about 712 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 4: the way that, especially our American system works, because we 713 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 4: do want to encourage, we want we want capital, we 714 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,320 Speaker 4: want business to take risks. We want them to feel 715 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,280 Speaker 4: like the market doesn't have so many barriers to entry, 716 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,759 Speaker 4: whether that's regulatory or whether that's competition, that you can 717 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 4: go you know, pursue a bold idea. But the regulatory 718 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 4: system in the United States, if you're not talking about 719 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 4: finance and you're not talking about you know, like pharmaceutical 720 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 4: basically in healthcare, is basically the product liability bar, which 721 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 4: means that like a company invents a thing or sells 722 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 4: a product, makes a claim and then if something really 723 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 4: bad happens, the company gets sued. But what that inherently 724 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 4: means is that companies, basically right get to do stuff 725 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 4: until there's harm or until there's damage, and then there's 726 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 4: repercussions and then maybe they have to change. And the 727 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 4: taser what fascinated me about it with so many people 728 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 4: would make the comparison to the FDA and say, this 729 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 4: is a weapon, but it's not really a medical device, 730 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 4: so it's not under this FDA scrutiny. Not that the 731 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 4: FDA is perfect, but we describe how like when you 732 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,280 Speaker 4: introduce a new drug, it's typically a ten year process 733 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 4: from concept to market. Right for a new drug with 734 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 4: the taser, what they did was they faced this choice. 735 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 4: Rick Smith's dad is going to lose all his money 736 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 4: if he doesn't figure out a working taser, and so 737 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 4: rather than fold, they increased the power to get the 738 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 4: effectiveness they needed. They ran around using literature from the 739 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 4: old versions of tasers that were less powerful, and said 740 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 4: this is completely safe. And there was nobody to look 741 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 4: at them and go, like, prove that, how do you 742 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 4: prove that? He did one study on one pig on 743 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,439 Speaker 4: an experimental device that didn't cause the pig to have, 744 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,720 Speaker 4: you know, heart trouble. They did a study on five 745 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 4: dogs on the production model of the more powerful taser 746 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 4: that were all five seconds or less, one hundred and 747 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,880 Speaker 4: fifty two shocks for five seconds or less. And then 748 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 4: they did these demonstrates on cops themselves when they were 749 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,800 Speaker 4: doing their little road show, basically a lot of shocks 750 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 4: for less than a second, and said this was the proof. 751 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 4: And because there was no third party or regulatory authority, 752 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 4: you had the one company who had an entirely obviously 753 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 4: vested interest, I mean, the family fortune was at stake, 754 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 4: making one weapon and running around telling now again what 755 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 4: was very quickly tens of thousands of cops. By two 756 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 4: thousand and four, we're talking about over one hundred thousand 757 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 4: police officers, so more than ten percent of the police 758 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 4: officers in the United States within five years are carrying 759 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 4: these weapons right telling them this cannot kill, and nobody, genuinely, 760 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 4: nobody is there to say, like, prove that in the literature, 761 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,360 Speaker 4: prove that in the science. And one of the most 762 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 4: interesting people I've met in my life covering this, who 763 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,880 Speaker 4: is not actually in the podcast, but I'm hopefully going 764 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,839 Speaker 4: to do maybe a bonus episode or about this guy, 765 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 4: is that is a cop named Andrew Dennis, who happened 766 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,760 Speaker 4: to be a trauma surgeon for the area departments when 767 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 4: when Swatt needed somebody, you know, because if somebody got 768 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,400 Speaker 4: shot or something. He's a Cook County Chicago trauma surgeon 769 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 4: and he was sitting in his taser training he was like, 770 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 4: this seems like both Frankly, the science doesn't seem good. 771 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 5: You can spook somebody to death if they have a 772 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:23,879 Speaker 5: heart condition, you know, I mean, truly, it's just it's 773 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:25,800 Speaker 5: mind blowing to make this rhetoric. 774 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 3: No offense to you know, no offense to people in 775 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 3: the audience tonight who are not surgeons but or trauma surgeons. 776 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,879 Speaker 3: But spoiler alert, they're a little more up to date 777 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:42,479 Speaker 3: on medical information. So it makes sense that this guy 778 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 3: would be sitting there and increasingly feel like he is 779 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,319 Speaker 3: getting built where his colleagues are getting kind of swindled. 780 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, he's able to see the because they present a 781 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,759 Speaker 4: lot of the literature in the training and they show that, 782 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 4: you know, they have this thick stack they would call 783 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 4: the research compendium, which was hundreds of pages of you know, 784 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 4: at a certain point, then thousands of pages. That just 785 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,439 Speaker 4: looks like a great prop because it looks like it's 786 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 4: all of this proof that the weapon is safe. And 787 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,799 Speaker 4: they show some of the slides and some of the 788 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 4: science of how they came to this weapon, and he's like, nah, 789 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 4: that's that's not that doesn't seem right. And he did 790 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,879 Speaker 4: his own studies, and he was one of the very 791 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 4: first to do his own independent research. He got money 792 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 4: at a lab in Chicago to do some research to 793 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 4: show no, this electric current can affect you know, a 794 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 4: human heart. But that was years after. By the time 795 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,200 Speaker 4: he's doing those studies, this is the most popular weapon 796 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 4: in police buy a long shot. It's not even close. 797 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 4: And so to unwind the understanding for police that actually 798 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 4: there is some risk. It was so entrenched in their 799 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,640 Speaker 4: minds at that degree that I'm sure we'll talk about him, 800 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,319 Speaker 4: but that's masters is a Kansas City police officer who 801 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,360 Speaker 4: is so convinced the taser cannot affect the heart that 802 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,320 Speaker 4: when his seventeen year old son is taseredd as a 803 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 4: cardiac arrest and the surgeon at that hospital tells him 804 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 4: the taser caused the cardiac arrest. This is in twenty fourteen, 805 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,440 Speaker 4: he still doesn't believe the surgeon who's telling him that 806 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 4: because his training has been so effective that that weapon 807 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,959 Speaker 4: cannot do what it actually did to his kid. 808 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, his son was tased for a long time. And 809 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 2: to me, that length of time, like you're saying, Nick, 810 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 2: is really the issue. How long do you hold down 811 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,839 Speaker 2: that trigger after those nodes have gone into somebody, right, 812 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,759 Speaker 2: especially somebody who's just being non compliant or someone who 813 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,439 Speaker 2: is just standing there when you hit them. 814 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:46,239 Speaker 4: M hm. 815 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 3: And folks, we're going to pause here for a moment. 816 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 3: This interview segment ended up being a two parter. There's 817 00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 3: so much more we want to get to. In meantime, 818 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 3: you can tell that Nick Berdini has indeed spent more 819 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:10,120 Speaker 3: than a decade and a half investigating this story. We 820 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 3: can't wait for you to hear absolute season one Taser International, 821 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,400 Speaker 3: and we can't wait to hear your thoughts about it, 822 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 3: so please contact us. You can find us on email, 823 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 3: You can call us on a telephone. You can find 824 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:24,760 Speaker 3: us on the internet correct. 825 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,440 Speaker 5: You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff, where 826 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 5: we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where 827 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 5: it gets crazy, on x FKA, Twitter, and on YouTube 828 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 5: with video kind of galore for you to just dive 829 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,240 Speaker 5: right into. On Instagram and TikTok. However, we're Conspiracy Stuff Show. 830 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,160 Speaker 2: If you want to give us a call, our number 831 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 2: is one eight three three STDWYTK. When you call in, 832 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,280 Speaker 2: it's a voicemail system. You've got three minutes. Give yourself 833 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 2: a cool nickname and let us know if we can 834 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,360 Speaker 2: use your name and message on the air at some 835 00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,440 Speaker 2: point within the message. If you'd like to send us 836 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,280 Speaker 2: words or not send us an email. 837 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence 838 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,840 Speaker 3: we receive, and it doesn't have to be just words, 839 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,560 Speaker 3: anything you'd like. 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