Speaker 1: Quody bags with Joseph's gotten more. The worst job I
Speaker 1: ever had was working in a grocery store. I hated it.
Speaker 1: I hated every single day I went to work. And
Speaker 1: I think probably one of the reasons I hated that
Speaker 1: job so much is, first off, it was labor intensive.
Speaker 1: I was very young, so they had me on the
Speaker 1: front and bag. This is back when people actually bagged
Speaker 1: groceries and took them out to your car for you.
Speaker 1: I hated that, and I'm not a big people person,
Speaker 1: so you know, it wasn't my thing back then. And
Speaker 1: then I hated having to come in at three point
Speaker 1: thirty in the morning to unload trucks. I didn't mind
Speaker 1: so much doing the stocking. I just hated unloading the trucks.
Speaker 1: I really did. And my god, the managers horrible, horrible.
Speaker 1: But that was many decades ago, and here I am now.
Speaker 1: But you know, I want to talk about a case
Speaker 1: today that actually originates by a relationship that was formed
Speaker 1: in a Kroger supermarket. I guess love bloomed, but unfortunately
Speaker 1: it ended in homicide. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this
Speaker 1: his body backs. Did you ever have stock shells? Dave
Speaker 1: get Did you ever have one of those jobs?
Speaker 2: Joe, I am one of those people who I had
Speaker 2: an idea of what I wanted to do with my life,
Speaker 2: what career path I wanted to be on, and then
Speaker 2: found a way to begin doing it at the age
Speaker 2: of fourteen.
Speaker 3: That was to be on radio.
Speaker 2: And I actually wanted to be on the radio doing
Speaker 2: baseball games, calling them, you know, yeah on first and second,
Speaker 2: no outs, bottom of the ninth, Joseph Scott Morgan steps in.
Speaker 2: That's what I wanted to do and with yeah, because
Speaker 2: I didn't think playing ball was going to work out
Speaker 2: for me. So anyway, I did that. And I've actually
Speaker 2: I said it many times. I've actually never had a
Speaker 2: real job. I've worked in radio or in my entire life.
Speaker 1: So well, I got to tell you my goal when
Speaker 1: I was a little boy, I wanted to be an archaeologist.
Speaker 1: I always that was because I love history. I do
Speaker 1: like I love digging in the dirt, which I got
Speaker 1: to do, you know, helping helping forensic anthropologists throughout the years.
Speaker 1: They called me a professional when I go out there,
Speaker 1: cease being a death investigator and I became a shove leaner,
Speaker 1: which means that if you're working around forensic anthropologist slash archaeologist,
Speaker 1: you're there to do their scut work. And so I'd
Speaker 1: be taking the shovelfuls of soul and putting it into
Speaker 1: the sifter and.
Speaker 3: What you called it, a shovel leaner.
Speaker 1: A shovel leaner. Yeah, yeah, so okay, most of the
Speaker 1: time that's applied to people from the dot, you know,
Speaker 1: they're leaning on shovels. Yeah, I was. I was a
Speaker 1: professional shovel leaner. But yeah, not too many roads lead
Speaker 1: away from the local pigley wiggly to a career in archaeology.
Speaker 1: So unfortunately I had I had to start, I had
Speaker 1: to start out there. But it put gas in my car, right,
Speaker 1: you know, so I am grateful for it, but it
Speaker 1: was it was probably I preferred. I really did prefer
Speaker 1: working in the moork to work in the grocery store. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I really did.
Speaker 2: I respect people that have those jumps, yeah, because I
Speaker 2: know that it's like, I don't know what it's like
Speaker 2: clocking in, and I'm thankful for that. I worked hard
Speaker 2: to not clock in. I worked hard for that. But
Speaker 2: I've admired people who do that, can go in and
Speaker 2: do something like that day in and day out and
Speaker 2: find satisfaction and and build from it. And in this case,
Speaker 2: we're actually dealing with a young couple. We're talking late teens,
Speaker 2: and they meet at a Kroger and they actually are
Speaker 2: they're in this really lovey dovey stage, the kind where
Speaker 2: people are really infatuated with one another and they're just
Speaker 2: old enough where they're outside of that puppy love you
Speaker 2: get when you're fourteen and fifteen before you can drive,
Speaker 2: and you know, that's a different infatuation than it is
Speaker 2: when you're nineteen twenty years old. You're out of high
Speaker 2: school and you're in college or moving forward with your
Speaker 2: adult life. And so when you're in that infatuated state,
Speaker 2: it can kind of be sickening for those who are
Speaker 2: not in that state.
Speaker 3: Come on, you know it, just stop.
Speaker 2: That's where they were, and that's where this couple, Andrea
Speaker 2: Ilberg and her boyfriend Casey Grondin, that was where they
Speaker 2: were in their relationship. They were in that lovey dovey
Speaker 2: I can't stand to be a minute. You know, where
Speaker 2: they'd like go to sleep holding the phone kind of thing,
Speaker 2: you know, right right on their pillow.
Speaker 1: That.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So anyway, for those.
Speaker 1: Well hey, wait, hang on now, I remember falling asleep
Speaker 1: on the phone talking to Kim when we were in
Speaker 1: that dating phase, and it you know, now she just says,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll fill her elbow and she said, do
Speaker 1: you hear anything I said? Are you awake? You know
Speaker 1: it's gone from you know, that was so sweet to
Speaker 1: you know, are you listening? So yeah, you know, it changes,
Speaker 1: like you said, man, it changes over time and it
Speaker 1: goes through phases like that. But I don't think this
Speaker 1: relationship necessarily worked out the way. Maybe both individuals planned
Speaker 1: for it too. They were kind of a strange And
Speaker 1: by the way, this this actually happened a loath these
Speaker 1: many years ago, to the east of Flint, Michigan, in
Speaker 1: a town called Mayfield Township. Sounds very Mayberry like to me.
Speaker 2: You're actually talking about, like, man, what a week and
Speaker 2: a half, two weeks before Thanksgiving twenty eleve and Andrea
Speaker 2: is house sitting for her aunt and uncle. And you know,
Speaker 2: that's one of those things that you know, people do
Speaker 2: still do, I guess in certain areas, you know, And
Speaker 2: she's there and she's got her boyfriend. Hey, you come on,
Speaker 2: you know, she's like, what nineteen twenty years old and
Speaker 2: he's nineteen, and hey, come on over and let's watch
Speaker 2: a movie. You know, I got the house to myself,
Speaker 2: come on right, right, Yeah, And that was their plan,
Speaker 2: and so he's all excited about it. Casey is and
Speaker 2: he gets a message from her saying, you know, no,
Speaker 2: it's off. Don't want to do it. And it was like,
Speaker 2: because he went to the door, I think, didn't He
Speaker 2: go to the home and knocks on the door. She
Speaker 2: doesn't answer. Her car's don't answer. Yeah, it doesn't answer
Speaker 2: at all. Yeah, And he's like, I'm at the right address,
Speaker 2: you know. And then he gets a text message from
Speaker 2: her phone that says, I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 2: We're not doing this to and so he left and
Speaker 2: he was so disappointed he thought she was breaking up
Speaker 2: with him that he said he went home to his
Speaker 2: house and basically crawled in bedd and cried.
Speaker 3: For three days.
Speaker 2: Now nineteen year old man saying he went home and
Speaker 2: crawled in bed and cried for three days. Gotta be honest, Joe,
Speaker 2: that's not something I would admit to.
Speaker 1: But you know, I don't. I don't think so maybe
Speaker 1: for a couple of hours, I don't know, but not
Speaker 1: for a protracted period of time like that. Plus all
Speaker 1: that crying leaves you quite dehydrated as well. So I
Speaker 1: just I don't think. I don't I don't see myself
Speaker 1: doing that. And look, I know that you know, these events,
Speaker 1: particularly when you're young, can be absolutely soul crushing. And
Speaker 1: this is another thing. When you're that young, you are
Speaker 1: not sophisticated enough to actually read the room. That you're
Speaker 1: easily fooled. And I think a lot of it. And
Speaker 1: I guess you don't necessarily have to be young to
Speaker 1: have that happen. But when love is involved and you're vulnerable,
Speaker 1: you know, you you know, your heart is like an
Speaker 1: open target, so it can really, you know, it can
Speaker 1: really impact you to a great degree. And of course,
Speaker 1: you know, Dave, what do we always talk about? What
Speaker 1: do we always talk about? Man? And I've preached this
Speaker 1: over and over again relative to suspects, you're going to
Speaker 1: be looking at those intimate partners, you know, in any
Speaker 1: kind of case. So this young man, this young man,
Speaker 1: you know that he's let everybody know that he was
Speaker 1: involved in a relationship. And let me tell you one
Speaker 1: more thing about the grocery store. All right, everybody at
Speaker 1: the grocery store would have known that they were in
Speaker 1: a relationship. They're not like keeping the secret. Families know
Speaker 1: all of this sort of thing. But Dave, I got
Speaker 1: to tell you this. This takes a dark turn really
Speaker 1: really quickly.
Speaker 2: And well, okay, you know what she doesn't all right.
Speaker 2: I want to go back to Casey for just a minute,
Speaker 2: because he expected them to have a really nice date
Speaker 2: night and it ends up being she's not there, her
Speaker 2: car's not there at the house, and so in his mind,
Speaker 2: she's breaking up with me because he got a text
Speaker 2: an hour later, you know, and he goes and cries.
Speaker 3: Well, when nobody can get up with her. The last
Speaker 3: text from her phone was to him. He said, it
Speaker 3: wasn't a.
Speaker 2: Normal text from her, and that's kind of what sent
Speaker 2: him in the direction he went.
Speaker 3: But the thing is is that.
Speaker 2: When nobody could get up with her the next day,
Speaker 2: her dad was like, we got to find her. You know,
Speaker 2: she's not answering her phone, she's not at the house,
Speaker 2: and her car is not here either, so they began
Speaker 2: looking for her right away. It wasn't where I'm trying
Speaker 2: to think of how we go through the expression of
Speaker 2: you got to wait a couple of days, you know,
Speaker 2: before you really start looking. This was pretty quick because
Speaker 2: she was twenty years old, and she was connected, and
Speaker 2: she did have this boyfriend she was really infatuated with.
Speaker 2: So when she's not where she's supposed to be, how sitting,
Speaker 2: her car's not there, there was an immediate let's go
Speaker 2: find her. Now, my first thought would have been go
Speaker 2: to the house, the house that she's house sitting, and
Speaker 2: go look through that house. But then if her car's
Speaker 2: not there and the door is locked, are you going
Speaker 2: to go in? I don't know, because apparently that wasn't
Speaker 2: their first thought, they being those who decided to look
Speaker 2: for her. But early the next day, her car was
Speaker 2: found abandoned on a nearby road, and that's when when
Speaker 2: they realized her how her car was abandoned, Then we
Speaker 2: need to go look in the house, and that's what
Speaker 2: they did, and they went inside the house and what
Speaker 2: they found was the type of horrific thing you take
Speaker 2: to your grave, you never forget the site that that
Speaker 2: those and I don't know. That doesn't say exactly who
Speaker 2: found her, Joe, and I'm wondering, I'm guessing it had
Speaker 2: to be somebody very close to her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and immediately, you know, you would call the police.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine the horror that would run through your veins,
Speaker 1: that would make the hair on the back of your
Speaker 1: neck stand up, that would literally crush your soul to
Speaker 1: see this beautiful young woman tied to a chair in
Speaker 1: the basement of her aunt and uncle's home, having sustained
Speaker 1: an execution style gunshot wound to the back of the head.
Speaker 1: You know, I've never had anyone ask me this question. However,
Speaker 1: I will give you the answer to the question that
Speaker 1: no one has ever asked me. What would be my preference?
Speaker 1: Endoor scene, outdoor scene, endoor scene. Every time for me,
Speaker 1: it goes to this idea of containment, and you almost
Speaker 1: have an indwelling barrier that's set up to a certain
Speaker 1: degree that prevents loss of any kind of evidence. You
Speaker 1: have to think, though, with this young lady, and from
Speaker 1: what we know from this horrible homicide that took place
Speaker 1: all the way back in twenty eleven, that there would
Speaker 1: have been a significant amount of trace evidence at the scene,
Speaker 1: either adjacent to her body or throughout the house. And
Speaker 1: they've never really released how extensive her injuries were. We
Speaker 1: do know that she was, and they've termed it as
Speaker 1: being executed essentially after being tied down. Why would you,
Speaker 1: I guess this is a big question. What would be
Speaker 1: the purpose behind tying this young woman to a chair
Speaker 1: if you just wanted to end her life? What would
Speaker 1: drive a perpetrator to want to sit her down? The
Speaker 1: only thing I can really think of, and I would
Speaker 1: imagine that the police did as well, Dave, is they
Speaker 1: would view this as perhaps torture of some kind or
Speaker 1: a I don't know, an inquisition perhaps directed at her.
Speaker 1: I'm going to control you. You will remain restrained in
Speaker 1: this position. I want answers, and I want them now.
Speaker 1: And if those answers are not given in a satisfactory manner,
Speaker 1: we're going to blow your head off or we're going
Speaker 1: to do grievous harm to you. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: what this smacks of. So when you have someone, I mean,
Speaker 1: let's fink my theory. Yeah, sure, go ahead.
Speaker 3: I thought it was. He's done.
Speaker 2: The individual has done whatever they're going to do, and
Speaker 2: they have tied her to this chair to say, look,
Speaker 2: you're not going anywhere. I'm going to leave, okay, And
Speaker 2: once I get done, you can try to get yourself
Speaker 2: out and you can go. But I'm leaving now just
Speaker 2: to calm her down. And then once she's calm and
Speaker 2: realize that he's leaving, boom shot to the back of
Speaker 2: the head.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's possible. I think one of the things
Speaker 1: I'd like to know that we know that she's bound
Speaker 1: to the chair, I'd really like to know if if
Speaker 1: she was, if she was, you know, blindfolded anyway, you know, like,
Speaker 1: for instance, if there was someone that if we go
Speaker 1: with with your idea here that if there was someone
Speaker 1: that she knew that was doing this, wouldn't they want
Speaker 1: to blindfold her so that she wouldn't have any knowledge
Speaker 1: of who they were, But that would imply that they
Speaker 1: had taken her by surprise, you know, so that they
Speaker 1: couldn't be identified if they were going to let her
Speaker 1: go free, but she could still recognize voices as well.
Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, someone was driven to commit a
Speaker 1: homicide and it's not like she was being there shooting
Speaker 1: her to wound her, Dave, this is a this is
Speaker 1: a headshot, all right. So the intent there is to
Speaker 1: end her life. There's no other way to really, you know,
Speaker 1: explain that and contain down there in the basement. That
Speaker 1: also goes to another point. I think, you know, for
Speaker 1: those of us that have basements in our home, the
Speaker 1: sound quality in the basement is not the same as
Speaker 1: it is throughout the rest of the house. So if
Speaker 1: you take someone into a basement, you're kind of sequestering
Speaker 1: them to a location, you know, because people can shout
Speaker 1: and scream, because you know, many times basements are at
Speaker 1: least partially, if not totally, underground, So you're, you know,
Speaker 1: you're kind of insulated from sound escaping. And if you
Speaker 1: want to do anything down there involving torture, you can
Speaker 1: because most of the people are not going to hear
Speaker 1: it that are in a right now. If you're up
Speaker 1: on the first floor or the second floor, that sound
Speaker 1: has a real chance of traveling out. So would would
Speaker 1: they have known about this? The perpetrator that showed up
Speaker 1: to the house. And remember, if we're talking about intimates,
Speaker 1: If we're talking about intimates, this is not her domicile.
Speaker 1: This is actually the domicile of her aunt and uncle.
Speaker 1: So how did the perpetrator know that the house even
Speaker 1: had a basement in it? You see what I'm what
Speaker 1: I'm saying a kind of familiarity, you know.
Speaker 2: On my word, No, I you know what, now, I
Speaker 2: understand why this case got messed up because everything that
Speaker 2: you're talking about, Joe, the different things you have to
Speaker 2: expect in an investigation, are still question marks here because
Speaker 2: you the only thing we know for sure is twenty
Speaker 2: year old and Andrea Ilbert is dead, tied to a chair,
Speaker 2: shot in the back of the head. That's all we know.
Speaker 2: In the basement of the house, which was this somebody
Speaker 2: who was familiar like her boyfriend, somebody who was invited
Speaker 2: over there like her boyfriend, that maybe downstairs was where
Speaker 2: they were going to have a you know, I don't
Speaker 2: know their date, even though she was house sitting, so
Speaker 2: being in the basement really doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: But maybe he's there.
Speaker 2: And I mean, I'm trying to think like you're saying,
Speaker 2: because I can't make sense of it at all. I
Speaker 2: mean at all, Joe, this is really confusing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it truly is. And of course the first person
Speaker 1: that the police are going to look at is going
Speaker 1: to be this boyfriend. And you know, and once I'm
Speaker 1: sure that once he starts spilling his guts about this,
Speaker 1: and he starts talking about how he felt like he
Speaker 1: was rejected, you know first, you know, right out of
Speaker 1: right out of the gate. You know, they're looking at
Speaker 1: this guy really really hard for this. They're wanting to know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're they're wanting they're wanting to try to get as
Speaker 1: much information from him as possible, and they're going to
Speaker 1: be assessing the nature of the relationship. And just to
Speaker 1: understand this, if you're doing a history with somebody like this,
Speaker 1: you're going to take them back. You know, how did
Speaker 1: you guys first meet? Well, we know that we've established
Speaker 1: that they met at work. How long have you been
Speaker 1: seeing one another? And suddenly the question has become progressively
Speaker 1: more uncomfortable. You know, have you guys been having trouble?
Speaker 1: Have have you gotten into an argument? Did the argument
Speaker 1: is physical? Yeah? Recently recently?
Speaker 2: Yeah, last night you guys got Yeah, you were supposed
Speaker 2: to be over there watching a movie, having date night
Speaker 2: and wait a minute, the text says no.
Speaker 3: So what do you think about that, buddy?
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, And it's an out and out rejection,
Speaker 1: and so you're thinking, if this, if this kid has
Speaker 1: any kind of of anger that's built up over this,
Speaker 1: you know, what was it? We said early on Dave,
Speaker 1: this plays back into it. He goes in, and he
Speaker 1: begins to cry and cries for this long protracted period
Speaker 1: of time by his own admission. Okay, and I know,
Speaker 1: you know, you can make a light of it, but
Speaker 1: if he's wounded, he's wounded emotionally over it. And so
Speaker 1: in rejection, Amen, every every I don't know anybody that
Speaker 1: hasn't been rejected before, and particularly it's a very powerful thing.
Speaker 1: And so you know, the police see see these breadcrumbs
Speaker 1: along the way, They're also going to want to know
Speaker 1: where are you involved in a physical relationship with her?
Speaker 1: And again, you know, talking about how things become progressively
Speaker 1: more uncomfortable. Then they go out to all the peripheral people.
Speaker 1: Did you you know here at the front, at the
Speaker 1: front of the store where the cash wrests are, did
Speaker 1: you folks that worked these cash wrestlers, you ever see
Speaker 1: them get into a fight up here? Were they ever
Speaker 1: angry at one another? Did any of that happen? Are
Speaker 1: there any instances? And oh, one more thing, is it
Speaker 1: okay for people to date that work here? Can they date?
Speaker 1: You know? What's the policy about that? That sort of thing?
Speaker 1: So you have to consider every bit of this. But
Speaker 1: Dave I got to tell you when they work this case.
Speaker 1: They worked this case and the boyfriend is identified as
Speaker 1: the number one suspect in this thing. Man, he not
Speaker 1: only was he identified, he was actually arrested. Yep, dude,
Speaker 1: he was charged and convicted on.
Speaker 3: This carrogation video is rough.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, the you know, the police, the police as
Speaker 1: they're going through this process are pressing him, pressing him, pressing.
Speaker 1: And if you're young and not very worldly, uh, it
Speaker 1: always amazes me that people that want to fight with
Speaker 1: cops on the street to get into you know, these
Speaker 1: verbal verbal contests with cops. You know that you can
Speaker 1: go to there's a technique that's taught that's taught in
Speaker 1: uh and you go. You don't get it necessarily when
Speaker 1: you're going through the academy, but there's actually a course
Speaker 1: that's taught and I remember it very well.
Speaker 3: It's called verbal.
Speaker 1: Judo and it it talks about how to either de
Speaker 1: escalate a situation or how to press the buttons of
Speaker 1: an individual. It's kind of a rudimentary way, you know,
Speaker 1: to do this, and you know, cops make their living
Speaker 1: by doing this. You know, that's why attorneys say keep
Speaker 1: your mouth shut, don't say anything because you're not as
Speaker 1: you'll never be as good as the cops are. There
Speaker 1: might be a few that are out there that can
Speaker 1: go toe to toe with the police, but every time
Speaker 1: you say something, you're adding more fuel to the fire.
Speaker 1: That's why you know, every attorney that I know that's
Speaker 1: a defense attorney is going to say, keep your mouth shut,
Speaker 1: ask for your phone call, and don't agree to anything.
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, in this case, this young man not only
Speaker 1: did he buckle under the pressure, Oh Joe Dave, he
Speaker 1: was convicted and they sent away to the state prison
Speaker 1: for life.
Speaker 3: Joe for life.
Speaker 2: Kim all I could think of, and I wanted to
Speaker 2: ask you this because you know what it looked like.
Speaker 2: You know what it looks like to find somebody tied
Speaker 2: to a chair with a gunshot in the back of
Speaker 2: the head. This nineteen year old kid doesn't. Were the
Speaker 2: detectives able to sit him down in that room and say,
Speaker 2: do you think maybe when she shot you down, that
Speaker 2: you might have blacked out and maybe you did harm
Speaker 2: her and you don't remember it, but maybe it happened,
Speaker 2: and just maybe you did go in there and see
Speaker 2: something and that's caused you to forget all these horrible
Speaker 2: things that you've done because they're telling this kid you
Speaker 2: can go home. Just look, man, we just got to
Speaker 2: get this and you're going to be able to go home.
Speaker 2: And I will tell you this goes back to you
Speaker 2: said lawyers say, don't talk. Here's why this kid you
Speaker 2: said it already. Chart arrested, charged with murder at trial, convicted,
Speaker 2: sentenced to life imprison Joseph Scott Morgan and this kid
Speaker 2: they got him to admit. He wrote down that he
Speaker 2: entered the house, saw Ilber's body, assumed she committed suicide,
Speaker 2: and then moved doc gigs in the room to make
Speaker 2: it look like she hadn't harmed herself. I got to
Speaker 2: write that down, Nune.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes no sense whatsoever. And yeah, you were
Speaker 1: talking about applying pressure. You know in that narrative that
Speaker 1: you're giving there are also physical things that can be
Speaker 1: done where they're not necessarily striking you. But I'll give
Speaker 1: you for instance. Okay, let's say one of the first
Speaker 1: things that they ask you when you're in that interview
Speaker 1: room is, hey, man, you want a bottle of water.
Speaker 1: And people think that's very benign, But what they'll do
Speaker 1: and they'll give you as much water as you want, okay,
Speaker 1: And what happens when you drink water, well, particularly me
Speaker 1: at this age, I'll tell you what happens when I
Speaker 1: drink water. But at that particular time, you know in
Speaker 1: his life, you know, he's he's ten, he's confused, he
Speaker 1: knows that he's here, he's being questioned there. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, not necessarily him, but there are these
Speaker 1: instances where you're giving water. Yeah, look, and the people
Speaker 1: that are doing the interview can see that you're becoming
Speaker 1: more uncomfortable because you've got to go avoid You've got
Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom. And it's almost like a
Speaker 1: Columbo moment where they say, yeah, we're gonna let you
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom, but wait one more thing. Let's
Speaker 1: go back to this point in time. So all the
Speaker 1: while that internal pressure is building up in your bladder.
Speaker 1: That's one of the little tricks. So keep your mouth shut,
Speaker 1: don't drink any water. So, you know, you begin to
Speaker 1: think about this and think about, well, why in the
Speaker 1: world would he admit to this, Why would he Was
Speaker 1: it because the police pressured him into it, or or
Speaker 1: was it because he actually did it? So day with
Speaker 1: Kenneth Grondon who, by the way, has been convicted. Now
Speaker 1: he's he's essentially, you know, taken off to state prison
Speaker 1: where he is going he begins to serve a lifelong sentence,
Speaker 1: no possibility of parole at all. He's going in, as
Speaker 1: they say, he's going in for all day. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: two years.
Speaker 3: Into evicted by a jury. You want to add that, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's not just suggestion. It's not just the police,
Speaker 1: you know, and do the whole thing.
Speaker 2: Man and had a jury, they sat a jury, they
Speaker 2: presented the case, the evidence they had came out and
Speaker 2: this at the time I'm of the murder. He's nineteen
Speaker 2: years old. A couple of years go by and the
Speaker 2: man is convicted. Joe, He's convicted by a jury of
Speaker 2: his peers, not just a sitting judge. And that means
Speaker 2: something to me because this kid, he didn't do it.
Speaker 2: We know that ahead of time. That's why we're doing
Speaker 2: the story. But thank god, Joe that there were other
Speaker 2: people who did not believe he was guilty because he
Speaker 2: was able to appeal, and when they did look at
Speaker 2: the information, they're like, wow, this, I think we might
Speaker 2: have got this wrong. Somebody along the line got this wrong.
Speaker 2: Because he sentenced in twenty sixteen and it's twenty eighteen
Speaker 2: when everything starts to come together for him. But he's
Speaker 2: been in jail for he's been in prison, man, I mean,
Speaker 2: what's it like when you go to prison, Joe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I Ain, it's the county lock up. I'll put
Speaker 1: it to you that way.
Speaker 3: It's five foot ten.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is five foot ten. And listen. One of
Speaker 1: the reasons, and this comes into play that we know
Speaker 1: his height, Grindin's height, is the fact that a bit
Speaker 1: of the information that was used in this case to
Speaker 1: convict him was the fact that he was he being grinding,
Speaker 1: was identified that as using the victim's credit card, and
Speaker 1: also that they have him doing this. You've got these
Speaker 1: experts that have come in and they look at this thing.
Speaker 1: They say, look this, this person that you're saying is
Speaker 1: at the you know, at the ATM with herst stolen card,
Speaker 1: you know, withdrawing money. This person's like six one six two.
Speaker 1: Grind is five ten. And what they determined was that
Speaker 1: was that not only that, but also the police had
Speaker 1: violated what's referred to as Bender's rule, which just thumbnail here,
Speaker 1: which states that a suspect must be told when an
Speaker 1: attorney has been retained. So it's at that point in
Speaker 1: time that you know, all you must cease and desist
Speaker 1: with what you're doing with the suspect that they have
Speaker 1: legal counsel, they will be there too, you know, to
Speaker 1: offer assistance, and so anything that comes after that notification
Speaker 1: is inadmissible Dave. So you know, he could he could
Speaker 1: have admitted to anything. But if you break that particular rule,
Speaker 1: then all of that stuff is, any information gleaned, is
Speaker 1: going to be non admissible, and that that's what happened.
Speaker 1: And then you couple that with the videography evidence that
Speaker 1: just doesn't marry up, you know, with Grondin because he's
Speaker 1: kind of of a you know, he's kind of a
Speaker 1: stocky guy. You know, you look at him, he's you know,
Speaker 1: kind of muscled. The older photographs of him, you know,
Speaker 1: he's kind of muscled up and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: And this actually led Dave to him being released from
Speaker 1: prison and sent home and placed in house arrest. Now
Speaker 1: they haven't overturned.
Speaker 3: It, but he was not free to do what he wanted.
Speaker 1: No, huh no. But they send him home. He's out
Speaker 1: of the joint.
Speaker 2: Right thankfully, thankfully. But Joe, now it goes back to
Speaker 2: you've got physical evidence that's got to be present whenever
Speaker 2: there is a shot to the back of the head.
Speaker 2: And I want to go back to that scene because
Speaker 2: wouldn't there have been some type of physical evidence left
Speaker 2: behind by the killer And wouldn't that killer take something
Speaker 2: with him or her? Would they not leave something behind
Speaker 2: and take something with them? I mean, I cannot get
Speaker 2: past this because you're really in close proximity to somebody, yes,
Speaker 2: you know, to tie them to a chair and you know,
Speaker 2: and then shoot them in the back of the head.
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to figure out why, how is it
Speaker 2: possible that we stopped investigating and went after this one
Speaker 2: guy because he was the low hanging fruit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a low hanging fruit. And here's something
Speaker 1: that's kind of fascinating to me. You collect, and Dave,
Speaker 1: what I'm i about to tell you this type of
Speaker 1: evidence is very intimate evidence. You go to the trouble
Speaker 1: to work the scene down, and you know, you're the
Speaker 1: aunt and uncle's basement where she was house sitting and
Speaker 1: found of course executed. You collect evidence at the scene
Speaker 1: that is intimate. And the reason I say intimate. It's
Speaker 1: not in a sexual sense. It is an item that
Speaker 1: you place in your mouth that DNA evidence can easily
Speaker 1: be transferred to. There are tons of these cases out there,
Speaker 1: and that evidence is that said evidence is collected at seeing,
Speaker 1: it's taken to the police station, and it ain't never tested.
Speaker 1: I'm always amazed in these cases. You know where things
Speaker 1: can go untested. You know, you don't get me on
Speaker 1: my soapbox about rape.
Speaker 3: Kits, and you know, because of costs.
Speaker 1: I think some of its costs and some of it
Speaker 1: is And here's the downside of being quote unquote thorough.
Speaker 1: It seems there are certain detectives out there and crime
Speaker 1: scene texts that want to take everything okay, and don't
Speaker 1: think that, you know, being a death investigator, you know,
Speaker 1: robs you of your humanity or a crimising tech or
Speaker 1: a detective, because when you go out to scene and
Speaker 1: you collect everything at the scene, what are you going
Speaker 1: to do with it? Well, you don't have the budget
Speaker 1: to test everything that's there. So you look at all
Speaker 1: of the items that you've collected, what's gonna what's going
Speaker 1: to have the highest problem outcome, what's going to be
Speaker 1: the most benefit to us? And we'll retain the rest
Speaker 1: of stuff. Well, that thing that they retained that was
Speaker 1: never tested, Dave, it's a cigarette bud. And so what
Speaker 1: do we do well for those that have never smoked cigarettes,
Speaker 1: if you've got a filtered cigarette, every time you put
Speaker 1: the scene in your mouth, and you've got you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know where they call it a micro knight,
Speaker 1: the a filter or that's what they used to call
Speaker 1: it back in the sixties. Uh, well micro knight, Mike
Speaker 1: micro k not, what is it? My micro knight filter?
Speaker 1: Cancer cancer sticks, another nail and coffin. You're transferring through
Speaker 1: saliva your DNA into what amounts to almost like a sponge.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's rich. And the outer circumference of the
Speaker 1: cigarette butt as well. You're wrapping your lips around it.
Speaker 1: So if you've got saliva on your lips, that sit
Speaker 1: in just your tongue or your teeth. If you've got
Speaker 1: saliva on your lips, that's going to transfer to the
Speaker 1: outer cylinder of this thing. And it was never tested.
Speaker 1: And guess what they had this piece of evidence. They've
Speaker 1: got this kid who has been released and put into
Speaker 1: house arrest. My thought is that they've always suspected that
Speaker 1: there was at least one other person involved in this
Speaker 1: and they never followed up on it. Well, enter onto
Speaker 1: the stage our friends at AUTHORM, and Dave I got
Speaker 1: to tell I got to tell our friends the story
Speaker 1: behind me picking this case. I saw the case and
Speaker 1: it made no reference to AUTHRAM at all, and I'm thinking, Wow,
Speaker 1: this is really a wacky case. Dave and I ought
Speaker 1: to talk about this, and I made it through like
Speaker 1: the first two thirds of the article, and then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, DNA solves pops up. And you know,
Speaker 1: most of the cases that you and I talk about
Speaker 1: with authorm are cases where we've got an unknown individual
Speaker 1: and they're finally identified after see authorm has multiple utilities, Dave.
Speaker 1: It's not just a matter of trying to discover the identity,
Speaker 1: which to me is one of the most noble things
Speaker 1: that can happen. But this utility that they have, this
Speaker 1: patented methodology that David and Kristen Middleman have developed at AUTHRAM,
Speaker 1: can help solve these cases as well. So if there
Speaker 1: are peripheral actors there and they have something like a
Speaker 1: like a cigarette button, I can only imagine a DNA
Speaker 1: scientist pun intended here with salivating over this, you know,
Speaker 1: because of how rich this is going to be and
Speaker 1: what you can extract from it. And you take that
Speaker 1: data and you plug it in to this forensic genetic
Speaker 1: genealogy database. With these open so open sources that they
Speaker 1: have access to, you're going to get a hit. And
Speaker 1: they did in this case, Dave.
Speaker 2: And you know, when looking at this, Joe and you
Speaker 2: mentioned them having the cigarette. But from the beginning, you know,
Speaker 2: the only thing I can think of is that while
Speaker 2: they did consider that they were probably more than one
Speaker 2: person involved, but they get somewhat of an admission of
Speaker 2: guilt without having to test a cigarette butt. They go
Speaker 2: and get a conviction by a jury and a sentence.
Speaker 2: I can see them not testing it, spending the money
Speaker 2: to test it, because they've already got it. It's done.
Speaker 2: We got the murderer, he's in prison. But the minute
Speaker 2: he's out, the minute there's a problem. I'm a little concerned,
Speaker 2: you know that there wasn't somebody that was yelling and screaming.
Speaker 3: Hey, look we got stuff to test.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I hate that it took this long for this guy
Speaker 2: to get his name cleared. I hate that he had
Speaker 2: police sitting on him at nineteen years old, and they
Speaker 2: were not being the way they should have been. There
Speaker 2: should have been somebody there Joe that said, hey, there's
Speaker 2: a lawyer outside waiting for you to talk to you,
Speaker 2: which is exactly what happened while they were grilling him.
Speaker 2: They knew it, Yeah, they didn't tell it.
Speaker 1: Well, I got to stop you there, man, I got
Speaker 1: to stop you there because Okay, this is going to
Speaker 1: be very disheartening for you to hear. Yeah, he's tethered
Speaker 1: in his home still and guess what what, Yeah, he's
Speaker 1: still tethered in his home. And come on, and the
Speaker 1: author he's up there are going to be filing new
Speaker 1: charges against him, against him, yes, against him, in addition
Speaker 1: to the person that they believe is the purp in
Speaker 1: this case, who for some reason, I think that the
Speaker 1: local constabulary believes that there is a connection between Grondon
Speaker 1: and this other subject that we're going to talk about.
Speaker 2: About, Chadwick. Yeah, Chadwick Mobley has now pleaded guilty.
Speaker 1: He has and he pleaded nolo contendre, which means it
Speaker 1: is as good as saying I'm guilty. And by the way,
Speaker 1: they you know, the family, the family of this young
Speaker 1: woman were very found that very dissatisfying because he was
Speaker 1: never if you plead nolo, they're not going to compel you,
Speaker 1: apparently to admit to what you've done, and which is
Speaker 1: something that I think is key, particularly in our society.
Speaker 1: If you see that the evidence is so overwhelming and
Speaker 1: you plead nol, it's not the same as saying I'm guilty,
Speaker 1: because under those circumstances they can compel you to allocute,
Speaker 1: at least on some level. But he was not compelled
Speaker 1: to do that. So you've got this fellow who, by
Speaker 1: the way, has essentially been on the run for many years.
Speaker 1: If I'm not mistaken. He was actually tracked down in Montana,
Speaker 1: which is where.
Speaker 3: When they watched him for a while.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they had the info and they were having
Speaker 2: trouble getting anything from him. You know, that they could
Speaker 2: test to see if his DNA did match, and they
Speaker 2: finally did get it, but it took some time. And
Speaker 2: once they did and as soon as they questioned him,
Speaker 2: he bolted. You know, he knew, he knew what he had, well,
Speaker 2: he knew what was going on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he knew what was going on, and I can
Speaker 1: only imagine, you know, when if he's got counsel when
Speaker 1: he begins to stare down these numbers that Authorm would
Speaker 1: have generated, these astronomical numbers. Uh, they're gonna be looking
Speaker 1: He's gonna be looking right down the barrel of this thing,
Speaker 1: understanding that the chances that he's going to get off
Speaker 1: on this are slim and none. So he just rolls
Speaker 1: over and literally when there is no trial, he comes
Speaker 1: in pleads nolo to this thing, and the judge hands
Speaker 1: down a sentence on this guy, Dave of life in
Speaker 1: prison without possibility of parole.
Speaker 3: You know, this case is ugly, It really is.
Speaker 2: At this point, I feel sick to my stomach for
Speaker 2: the family of the victim here. You know, the one
Speaker 2: thing you have left after you lose a loved one
Speaker 2: is you have answers.
Speaker 3: You know you need answers. We need to know what
Speaker 3: happened and.
Speaker 2: Why there has to The why really just helps us.
Speaker 2: I think doesn't mean we agree with it or like it,
Speaker 2: but at least there was a reason. They don't have
Speaker 2: a reason. They don't have an emission, They don't have
Speaker 2: anything that allows them to go to sleep at night
Speaker 2: saying I know what happened to my loved one and.
Speaker 3: Why I don't know that.
Speaker 2: I just know that her boyfriend got locked up and
Speaker 2: now he's not locked up anymore. Another guy who actually
Speaker 2: pled no contest is now in the joint, but they're not.
Speaker 2: There is no you know, you and I don't use
Speaker 2: the term closure because I don't believe it's a real terms. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think it is, and you know, if you guys disagree,
Speaker 2: we understand. I understand that, but you know, I just
Speaker 2: don't think there is. Sometimes there's an end, but even
Speaker 2: that end is hollow.
Speaker 1: It's not achievable. It makes it you know, that term again,
Speaker 1: you know, it gives the impression that everything's going to
Speaker 1: be all right and that you will have closure, you
Speaker 1: close that chapter of your life and you move on.
Speaker 1: And that's just not it's not the way it works.
Speaker 1: It's bad. It's bad wording. And you know, look, there
Speaker 1: there's going to be a lasting, you know, impact of
Speaker 1: this case. First off, can I tell you what really
Speaker 1: disturbs me about this? Going back to Chadwick Shane Mobley
Speaker 1: that has been arrested pled NOLO and has been convicted.
Speaker 1: He was at the time, he was working as an
Speaker 1: emt in Pontiac, Michigan. So there's that proximity. I think
Speaker 1: what I'm still trying to understand is what is the connection,
Speaker 1: what is the actual connection between mobilely growed and more
Speaker 1: importantly to me, this poor young lady Andrea. I want
Speaker 1: to know how all of those kind of triangulct together
Speaker 1: and this you know, what would what would compel a
Speaker 1: person to participate in this behavior like this that brings
Speaker 1: about an end to a life. You know, he had
Speaker 1: worked as an emt up there, so he he would
Speaker 1: have had this idea of proximity to those events which occurred,
Speaker 1: you know, like I mentioned earlier in this little this
Speaker 1: little hamlet outside of Flint back over to the east.
Speaker 1: And additionally, he had taken on a job Dave of
Speaker 1: at this point in his life of being a long
Speaker 1: haul trucker, so you know, when the investigation led to him,
Speaker 1: he was going to try to dispose of anything that
Speaker 1: might tie him back in his truck and went to
Speaker 1: some efforts to try to, you know, destroy these things.
Speaker 1: But the one thing that you can't destroy is your
Speaker 1: DNA molecule that you're toting around with you. It doesn't matter,
Speaker 1: you know, how many dirty towels you have in your
Speaker 1: in your in your cab of your truck. It doesn't
Speaker 1: matter if you've got food stuffs that are left behind.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if you know you're shedding skin off
Speaker 1: of your scalp and you wipe all that stuff up.
Speaker 1: If that's even possible, that genetic code that you have
Speaker 1: within you can still be paired up and matched with
Speaker 1: that genetic code that was on that cigarette, and those
Speaker 1: two things are blended together to give you a result,
Speaker 1: or not blended together, but compared and that you know,
Speaker 1: those numbers are, as I've said before, absolutely astronomical, and
Speaker 1: they lead back to him. But again, this case is
Speaker 1: going to require a lot more because this young man,
Speaker 1: according to what I have been reading, is still going
Speaker 1: to be recharged in this case. So it would seem
Speaker 1: to me that they're going to do this for one
Speaker 1: or two reasons. They're either going to say that, well,
Speaker 1: there's other things that we know about this case that
Speaker 1: you guys don't know, or maybe it's that they just
Speaker 1: want to save face for having, you know, led to
Speaker 1: a conviction of this man and put him away. And
Speaker 1: still even though he's not in the joint, he's still limited.
Speaker 1: He's not free to move about. But listen, now, that
Speaker 1: this case, at least to this point, has been solved.
Speaker 1: We have to keep in mind that it was solved
Speaker 1: by the efforts of those authorities that felt that it
Speaker 1: was in the best interest to dig deeper and try
Speaker 1: to determine, you know, whose DNA was on on that
Speaker 1: cigarette putt and of course that leads us back to Authorn.
Speaker 1: It's important that any of you out here within the
Speaker 1: sound of my voice that are interested in helping to
Speaker 1: solve crimes, helping to solve mysteries, please do yourself a
Speaker 1: favor and go visit dnasolves dot com and they have
Speaker 1: got a myriad of cases that are out there, but
Speaker 1: this is a self funded endeavor. They need money in
Speaker 1: the pot in order to move these cases forward. And
Speaker 1: anything you choose the case, maybe it's something the story
Speaker 1: is compelling to you, or maybe it's in proximity to
Speaker 1: where you live. You choose that case, you donate to
Speaker 1: that case, and when they hit that trigger mechanism for
Speaker 1: those funds, which is roughly seven thousand to seven seventy
Speaker 1: five hundred bucks, that case will begin to move forward
Speaker 1: at that point in time, and maybe, just maybe because
Speaker 1: of your donation, someone will have answers, I'm Joseph Scott
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Packs H