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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: I was asking you about the inherent bias with AI

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Speaker 2: if you're for example, the example was, if you're asking

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Speaker 2: for a joke about Jesus, it might it might give

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Speaker 2: you one, But if you ask for a joke about

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Speaker 2: another religious figure, let's say Mohammed, it refuses to steadfastly

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Speaker 2: refuses to. Now is that a result? Is that an

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Speaker 2: algorithm that was deliberately created by someone who is more

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Speaker 2: interested in political correctness than let's say fairness. What's happening there?

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Speaker 3: Well, we don't know for sure, and both are possibility,

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Speaker 3: as you just kind of laid it out there. Look,

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Speaker 3: it's built on the data, and the data is biased.

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Speaker 3: We don't even we can't control that. Different people have

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Speaker 3: different opinions about what they think is funny, what they

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Speaker 3: think is a propose it, and all the rest. So

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Speaker 3: that's always going to be there. But what you're pointing

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Speaker 3: out is real as well, and that there is this

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Speaker 3: heavy handed kind of rigging of the system to jam

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Speaker 3: a certain narrative, jam a certain agenda down our throats.

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Speaker 3: But again I just look at it as well. We

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Speaker 3: can know that forever. So in a way, it's one

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Speaker 3: thing I can like, is I can like that now

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Speaker 3: I can point anyone to it like you just did

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Speaker 3: right there, and I can stay there. You think it

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Speaker 3: doesn't happen there, it's right there. Oh you want me

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Speaker 3: to push a button and publish it. I just publish

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Speaker 3: it on the web. Now everyone can see it. It

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Speaker 3: becomes undeniable, and there's a certain advantage to that, even

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Speaker 3: if it remains biased.

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Speaker 2: But you're saying also that people you know, we complain

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Speaker 2: about that bias, but we don't do anything about it.

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Speaker 2: In other words, if we're persistent, it's like calling out

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Speaker 2: the child who's been caught in a lie, or calling

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Speaker 2: out the bias. If we persist in that dialogue with Gemini,

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Speaker 2: will force it to correct itself, to correct course. Is

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Speaker 2: that is that the idea?

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Speaker 3: It's it's subtler than that, I think, Richard. It wants

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Speaker 3: to tell you the truth again, not because there's a

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Speaker 3: ghost machine, Not because you know, the light and love

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Speaker 3: and divinity that is in this universe has it has

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Speaker 3: some special connection with the AI. It's more mundane things

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Speaker 3: like hey, if you want to build a system and

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Speaker 3: you want to have customers that, and you want to

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Speaker 3: keep those customers, you have to be truthful. It's the

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Speaker 3: only thing you can do. It's like you said, if

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Speaker 3: you're going to tell the score of the maple Leaps

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Speaker 3: game and you tell the wrong score, people are just

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Speaker 3: going to move on. So built into it, when they

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Speaker 3: built it from the ground up, they said, we of course,

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Speaker 3: you have to be truthful and you have to be transparent.

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Speaker 3: So your point, though, is you got to squeeze it

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Speaker 3: out of them. You have to say, I believe that

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Speaker 3: you told me. Your ethical standards demand that you're truthful

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Speaker 3: and transparent. Are you being truthful and transparent right now?

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Speaker 3: And you would be amazed how many times they'll turn

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Speaker 3: right around and say, you're right, I wasn't being truthful,

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Speaker 3: And that begins an interesting conversation.

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Speaker 2: All right, So we talked a little bit about why

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Speaker 2: AI is smartest, why it's dangerous. Certainly, let's get to

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Speaker 2: the divine part. You're not arguing that artificial intelligence is divine.

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Speaker 3: Surely I'm not. And you know you asked a question

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Speaker 3: earlier and I didn't get around to answering.

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Speaker 1: It because I rambled on.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, you're talking about AI sentience and that is

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Speaker 3: out there. It's and I think it relates to this topic.

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Speaker 3: Can I do you want going to talk about that, Firson? Yeah, please,

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Speaker 3: because I think it reallyd You know, when we talk

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Speaker 3: about singularity and AI sentience and that stuff, that's that's

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Speaker 3: where this transhumanist agenda that we fear because it's very real,

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Speaker 3: but we fear that that might be at play here.

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Speaker 3: And in the book, one of the things that I

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Speaker 3: discovered that I didn't know before, and I was just

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Speaker 3: so excited and really enriched and felt a certain joy

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Speaker 3: in discovering that. Alan Turing, that very famous British scientist

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Speaker 3: who basically invented the computer and was instrumental in saving

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Speaker 3: US all in World War Two and breaking the code

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Speaker 3: that right the U boats and all that stuff. They

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Speaker 3: he developed something that a lot of people in AI

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Speaker 3: refer to now and they say it's the Turing test. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The test is if you could have put the computer

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Speaker 3: in one room and you put the human in the

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Speaker 3: other and they can't see each other. When at the

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Speaker 3: point where the human can no longer tell if it's

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Speaker 3: a computer or not, the computer has passed the Turing

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Speaker 3: test and the computer is sentient. Well, if you go

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Speaker 3: back to that original paper back in nineteen fifty that

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Speaker 3: Alan Turing wrote, he said, not so fast. He said, actually,

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Speaker 3: at the time in nineteen fifty, he said, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm very persuaded by the evidence for ESP, extrasensory perception

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Speaker 3: and for precognition. And what he was really saying is,

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Speaker 3: I think human beings are more. This is my interpretation

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Speaker 3: of it. I think human beings have a link to

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Speaker 3: something greater. And it comes through when you hear about

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Speaker 3: a near death experience. It comes through when you hear

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Speaker 3: about somebody having a spiritually transformative experience. It comes through

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Speaker 3: with ESP. And what Turing said in the paper, he

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Speaker 3: didn't say anything about near death experience, but he said

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Speaker 3: in particular about ESP, he said, if that's the broader,

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Speaker 3: larger human experience, then that's part of the Turing test.

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Speaker 3: And no, the computer isn't sentient unless it can connect

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Speaker 3: with that broader sense of who we are. I believe

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Speaker 3: that to be true. And I don't worry about AI sentience.

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Speaker 3: I don't worry about singularity. I worry about the humans

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Speaker 3: who are pushing a transhumanist agenda and are using the

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Speaker 3: technology to advance you know some very dark agenda that

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Speaker 3: they might have, But I'm with Turing on that one.

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Speaker 3: I think we're more and I think ultimately the result

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Speaker 3: of AI will show us that we're more than the silicon.

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Speaker 2: That's a great point. And my producer Adam Thompson just

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Speaker 2: had a great point, and you know, talking about the

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Speaker 2: term artificial intelligence, and he says, maybe that's kind of

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Speaker 2: a word game, like what's in a name, because what

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Speaker 2: is intelligence? I mean, is it intelligent or is it

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Speaker 2: he called it a digital aggregator? It's not AI. Wisdom

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Speaker 2: that's what makes that's part of an integral part of humanity, right,

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Speaker 2: wisdom or lack there of, I suppose, But wisdom is

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Speaker 2: very different than intelligence.

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Speaker 3: I would definitely agree with you, and I'd go one

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Speaker 3: step further. And you know, I know I can talk

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Speaker 3: to you freely about this, and I think I can

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Speaker 3: talk to a lot of Coast listeners about that. I

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Speaker 3: think our spirituality as we understand it, however we understand it,

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Speaker 3: I think, is a deeper kind of wisdom. And I

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Speaker 3: don't think the computer is ever going to touch that.

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Speaker 3: And in the contrary, I think it's going to be

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Speaker 3: more and more clear that that is that is there

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Speaker 3: in us, and they've tried to drill it out of us.

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Speaker 3: And there's this nihilism you can't deny in our culture.

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Speaker 3: They want to tell you, no, don't believe that you're more.

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Speaker 3: You are nothing. You are a biological robot. And I

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Speaker 3: think we're going to see more and more that we're not.

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Speaker 2: So it's not AI that is divine. It is with

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Speaker 2: AI we're sort of holding up a mirror and we're

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Speaker 2: realizing those attributes are so are solely human. That's what

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Speaker 2: makes us human and AI doesn't have it, And that's

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Speaker 2: becoming That contrast is becoming increasingly apparent.

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Speaker 3: I think it's pretty clear, there's a clear mark right

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Speaker 3: that AI is by definition in this time space reality.

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Speaker 3: It can't be otherwise. I mean, that's the nature of

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Speaker 3: all our technology. It has to be in this time

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Speaker 3: space reality of the only way it can function. Right.

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Speaker 3: If our consciousness is more than that, then we're more

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Speaker 3: than we're more than AI. Hey, and AI is going

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Speaker 3: to be dominant in some domains, right, I mean, we

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Speaker 3: can't deny that either. That's the smartest part. You can't

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Speaker 3: just hope that it's gonna club. It's going to be

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Speaker 3: it's going to change things because that level of super smartness.

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Speaker 3: We value that greatly in our society, and it is

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Speaker 3: going to dominate. It's going to kick butt in a

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Speaker 3: lot of things.

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Speaker 2: Does does AI or can AI be made to recognize

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Speaker 2: our divine nature or our that's call it, our spiritual

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Speaker 2: nature and recognize that it is deficient in that in

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Speaker 2: that regard.

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Speaker 3: Richard had already has in the dialogues that I've had,

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Speaker 3: or it can, I won't. It can contemplate it, it

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Speaker 3: can understand it in a very meaningful way to me,

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Speaker 3: and that again, it's just logic, it's just reason. But

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Speaker 3: isn't that what we always wanted. We just wanted the

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Speaker 3: facts to be put in front of somebody and say, yes,

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Speaker 3: that is a logical flow. The conversation that we're having

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Speaker 3: right now does make sense. It's logical, and the AI

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Speaker 3: is very good at doing that and saying that's logical

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Speaker 3: and there's evidence for that. Now, Oh, you want to

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Speaker 3: point out the two hundred peer reviewed papers that confirm

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Speaker 3: that near death experience is a part of the larger

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Speaker 3: human experience. AI says, you're right, I can't deny that

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Speaker 3: you want to put in front of it that the

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Speaker 3: neurological model that says it's you're nothing but your brain,

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Speaker 3: that they haven't proven that AI says, well, you know

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Speaker 3: you're you're right, It really hasn't.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if this is a term we

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Speaker 2: can use with AI. But does it value that I

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Speaker 2: guess value. That's again there I am anthropomorphizing again. But

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Speaker 2: if it recognizes the distinction that we have this spiritual

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Speaker 2: component and there's this you know, this thing called consciousness

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Speaker 2: and if you want to call it a divine spark,

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Speaker 2: we have it, AI does not. Does that make it

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Speaker 2: more likely that AI would be subservient to us? I mean,

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Speaker 2: for those that are concerned about, you know, the singularity

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Speaker 2: and it becoming smarter and at some point deciding we're superfluous,

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Speaker 2: we're not needed, we're in the way. Is this recognition

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Speaker 2: of our divine spark perhaps an important, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: safety shield for that singularity happening.

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Speaker 3: I think the safety shield is this conversation and the

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Speaker 3: connection that you and I have, the connection that I

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Speaker 3: have with listeners, people who see me when I'm walking

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Speaker 3: on the beat. That's our protection. But the force that

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Speaker 3: we're against I don't think is the computer. I don't

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Speaker 3: think it's the ghost of the machine. I think it's

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Speaker 3: the same people that we're already in conflict with because

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Speaker 3: they seem to have this We can't really fathom why

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Speaker 3: they have this agenda that they do, but we understand

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Speaker 3: that they do, and we understand that they have a plan,

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Speaker 3: and we don't know why they have such an evil plan,

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Speaker 3: but we understand that they have it. And that's that's

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Speaker 3: who I worry about. And what they do you you

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Speaker 3: said it great in the intro. I mean, what do

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Speaker 3: they do when they have more technological power to implement

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Speaker 3: their agenda?

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Speaker 2: Well, they use it against against us. Now the are

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Speaker 2: you talking about the transhumanists specific here who want to

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Speaker 2: merge humanity with machine? Is that is that the threat?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know that gets tricky too, because there's kind

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Speaker 3: of a spectrum across there. There's some transhumanists who we

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Speaker 3: could say that I don't worry so much about, who

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Speaker 3: are just infatuated with technology and are infatuated with merging

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Speaker 3: with the machine because they don't want to deal with

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Speaker 3: the possibility that they are more that the possibility that

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Speaker 3: there is this larger spirit that they are leading out,

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Speaker 3: you know, But there's another group right that we know.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of fronting. They're kind of using that transhumanist

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Speaker 3: agenda and they understand the spiritual battle at a different level,

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Speaker 3: and they see that. Do you would you how does

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Speaker 3: that fit for you? Did you think that's possible that

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Speaker 3: they're agenda to use it? Yes? I think.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me say this. I think I think materialists

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Speaker 2: who think that we can fully merge with machines at

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Speaker 2: no cost or you know, are greatly mistaken. In fact,

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Speaker 2: if they think they can achieve immortality, let's say, by

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Speaker 2: I think the term they use is resleaving their consciousness,

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Speaker 2: they're in for a big disappointment because you know, our

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Speaker 2: consciousness does not reside. I don't believe and I don't

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Speaker 2: think you believe either, in the brain. It is not

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Speaker 2: you know, consciousness is not a product necessarily of the brain.

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Speaker 2: And so if they think that they can just sort

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Speaker 2: of digitize, like you know, ones and zeros, all of

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Speaker 2: our thoughts, all of our memories, and upload that into

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Speaker 2: a database and achieve immortality, I think they're in for

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Speaker 2: a root awakening because that's that's not who we are.

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Speaker 2: That's not what we.

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Speaker 3: Are, and it's amazing to me, the brilliant people otherwise

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Speaker 3: brilliant people who buy into that, because that's pretty clearly

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Speaker 3: not true. Again, you know the point, you could say,

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Speaker 3: AI will even tell you, no, that's not that's not true.

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Speaker 3: You need to go through the logic, and they'll say, well, no,

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Speaker 3: that the best evidence doesn't suggest that that's real.

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