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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four seventy of the Therapy

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Speaker 1: for podcast. We'll get right into our conversation afterword from

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Speaker 1: our sponsors. Quick question, how many people do you check

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Speaker 1: on every single day who have no idea you exist?

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Speaker 1: Not your friends, not your family. I'm talking about the

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Speaker 1: five accounts you go to before you even get out

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Speaker 1: of bed, The influencer whose stories you watch before your

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Speaker 1: coffee is done. The celebrity you genuinely fight somebody for online.

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Speaker 1: My guest today studies exactly that. Doctor Maya Miguel Hoskin

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Speaker 1: is a professor at Loyola Marymount University and a Forbes

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Speaker 1: contributor whose work sits at the intersection of mental health,

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Speaker 1: social media, and identity. And she's here to talk about

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Speaker 1: parasocial relationships, the one sided bonds we build with influencers, celebrities,

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Speaker 1: and yes, even Ai. We get into why these relationships

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Speaker 1: had friend from black women, specifically what happened when owner

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Speaker 1: and founder of the global luxury fashion brand Haneita small

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Speaker 1: business got dragged online by people who swore they were

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Speaker 1: ride or Die. Why doctor Hoskin has to take a

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Speaker 1: five month break from the news to protect your own

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Speaker 1: nervous system and the moment in her own research career

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Speaker 1: when AI showed up as a relationship people are having,

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Speaker 1: not just a tool people are using. This conversation might

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Speaker 1: make you check your screen time. Press play and let's

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Speaker 1: get into it. Thank you so much for joining me today,

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Speaker 1: doctor Hoskin.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very excited to chat with you. This is

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Speaker 1: a conversation I have been wanting to have for a

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Speaker 1: very long time, so I'm really glad that we found you.

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Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about your work and

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Speaker 1: your background in terms of framing around parasocial relationships.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Well. I'm an assistant professor Ya Lamarra Mount University

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Speaker 2: in Law, Angelus, and I'm in the counseling program, so

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Speaker 2: students who are getting their master's degrees to become mental

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Speaker 2: health therapists school counselors at Whole Deal. And I'm also

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Speaker 2: a contributor for Forbes Women, And a lot of my

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Speaker 2: editorial writing in my research centers around the intersections of

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Speaker 2: mental health, popular culture, social media, and women and relationships

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Speaker 2: right and relationship dynamics. And with a lot of the researching,

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Speaker 2: like I said, editorial writing again, this topic of social

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Speaker 2: media continues to come up and how it intersects and

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Speaker 2: how we shape our own identity and how we look

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Speaker 2: at other people and how then we build relationships with

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Speaker 2: one another.

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Speaker 1: So does it feel like it's particularly important to be

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Speaker 1: paying attention to parasocial relationships right now?

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Speaker 2: I think so, especially since social media has just taken off, right,

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Speaker 2: and I think a lot of individuals are going to

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Speaker 2: social media and looking to various types of influence, whether

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Speaker 2: it be fitness influencers or mental health experts, or even

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Speaker 2: finance influencers or celebrities as their source for information which

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Speaker 2: could be a good thing, right, which could be a

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Speaker 2: beneficial thing. Absolutely, it makes that information more accessible. But

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Speaker 2: I think it's as many benefits as parasocial relationships have.

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Speaker 2: I think it's important to look at where are some

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Speaker 2: of the areas It can get a little bit more

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Speaker 2: dicey with those types of relationships.

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Speaker 1: So before we go too far into the conversation, I

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Speaker 1: think it's important for us to give like a definition

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Speaker 1: of what we're talking about when we are saying parasocial relationships,

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Speaker 1: So what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Essentially simply put their one sided relationships? Right, when we

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Speaker 2: follow that lifestyle influencer or that fitness influencer who was

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Speaker 2: in all be all right, maybe we want to think

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Speaker 2: about what are we going to wear this summer? What's

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Speaker 2: a good way to tighten up our triceps?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: We know we go right to them, right, Or we

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Speaker 2: have those five people who we go to on Instagram

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Speaker 2: or on TikTok and we jock down note right, and

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Speaker 2: we're fiercely loyal to them. But what makes them parasocial

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Speaker 2: is they're often one sided because we're following them, we're liking,

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Speaker 2: we're commenting, and they don't know we're alive, which is okay,

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Speaker 2: But that's what the nature of parasocial relationships are. They're

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Speaker 2: often with a celebrity, a politician even or an influencer.

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Speaker 2: That's one sided. So we are giving, we're giving, and

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Speaker 2: we get some step in return, right, We get that education,

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Speaker 2: we get that empowerment in those pieces, but often they're

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Speaker 2: not following us back or liking our comments back, our

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Speaker 2: posts back. So that's us of what parasocial relationships are

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Speaker 2: in a nutshell.

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Speaker 1: And you know it sounds like you've done a lot

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Speaker 1: of work and research in this area. So what is

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Speaker 1: the impact on our mental health when we do have

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Speaker 1: these one sided relationships with people, typically on social media?

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say parasocial relationships aren't inherently in and

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Speaker 2: of themselves bad. Right, We as humans, all of us,

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Speaker 2: we crave connection, We crave community, belonging, safety, identity, representation, right,

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Speaker 2: And so in a lot of ways, parasocial relationships tell

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Speaker 2: us less about the influencer or the celebrity or the

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Speaker 2: politician and more about ourselves and what we need and

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Speaker 2: what we're seeking, right. And so within that they can

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Speaker 2: provide encouragement and empowerment, they can provide information and education

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Speaker 2: around certain topics, right, And so those are all of

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Speaker 2: the benefits that we get that we walk away from

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Speaker 2: engaging in parasocial relationships. Also again creating that connection that community,

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Speaker 2: increasing our self esteem things like that, even normalizing vulnerability,

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Speaker 2: increasing the likelihood of help seeking behavior. Right, So these

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Speaker 2: are all things that we can walk away with from

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Speaker 2: engaging in parasocial relationships. That said, as I said before,

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Speaker 2: they get a little tricky in terms of mental health.

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Speaker 2: We're putting our all into these individuals, right, We're putting

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Speaker 2: our trust implicitly. Right for the most part, or in

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Speaker 2: many cases, let's talk about what's going on right now.

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Speaker 2: Some of us know about the recent controversy over mental

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Speaker 2: health experts saying they have certain credentials and they're being

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Speaker 2: controversy around is this real? Are they telling the truth? Right?

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Speaker 2: And now their expertise and or credibility is put into question,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of folks are feeling betrayed. They're like, listen,

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Speaker 2: I trusted you, or I even paid my money to you,

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Speaker 2: right because I found you on social media, and now

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Speaker 2: I come to find out that you might not be

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Speaker 2: who you say you are. Right. And so if a

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Speaker 2: person was more apt to seek help to become vulnerable

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Speaker 2: based off of creating a relationship, for example, with an

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Speaker 2: influencer in that situation that could make them completely withdrawal

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Speaker 2: and turn within right. And so that's one piece of it,

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Speaker 2: because you're implicitly putting your trust in this person and

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Speaker 2: there's really no checks and balance systems in a lot

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Speaker 2: of cases if that trust is being placed in the

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Speaker 2: right direction. Another piece of it is for black women

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Speaker 2: in particular, we can get into the strong black woman's troupe. Right.

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Speaker 2: We're often positioned and given the role of the supporter,

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Speaker 2: the healer, the nurturer, the one who you're going to

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Speaker 2: support your celebrity person ride or die, no matter what,

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Speaker 2: right the hell you're going to die for Beyonce, You're

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Speaker 2: going to die for it doesn't matter what's going on, right,

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Speaker 2: And I had to say that you shouldn't feel that way.

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Speaker 2: But what ends up happening is it perpetuates and creates

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Speaker 2: a normalization of us taking on this role of pouring

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Speaker 2: poor and pouring into people and supporting people who aren't

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Speaker 2: necessarily reciprocating the same. I was just talking to someone

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Speaker 2: about when Kanye West was having when he was first

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Speaker 2: having some of his public manic episodes, and you know,

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Speaker 2: issue of mental health was coming up and bipolar two

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Speaker 2: disorder and so on and so forth. And I remember

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Speaker 2: several think pieces saying Kanye West seeds a black woman

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Speaker 2: and this is strange. No, he does not need a

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Speaker 2: black one. He needs a good therapist and psychiatrist. And

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Speaker 2: it gets the word sit down and chill out for

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Speaker 2: a little bit, right, But a black woman is not

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Speaker 2: the answer, right. A black woman's support in love is

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Speaker 2: not always the answer, and sometimes it is. But when

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Speaker 2: that expectation and role is placed on us and we

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Speaker 2: didn't internalize that, that can add on to that way

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Speaker 2: when we feel like we have to be the ride

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Speaker 2: or die. Right. So those are just some of the

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Speaker 2: mental health aspects, our implications of parasocial relationships.

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Speaker 1: So, doctor Haskin, I'm curious to hear more about like

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Speaker 1: the history of this, because in the research and definitely

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Speaker 1: not as extensive as what I'm sure you've done, it

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Speaker 1: feels like the idea of parasocial relationships really started with

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Speaker 1: TV and movie characters, right, Like you feel fiercely attached

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Speaker 1: to like from Insecure, right, So it feels like parasocial

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Speaker 1: relationships kind of have a history in entertainment in some ways,

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Speaker 1: and they have now transferred to social media. But the difference,

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Speaker 1: it feels like, is that the characters were characters, right,

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Speaker 1: Like there was no interaction beyond you maybe watching your

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Speaker 1: favorite movie thousands of times, right, and it has transitioned

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Speaker 1: to these platforms where these are actual, real people, And

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Speaker 1: so what's the difference. It feels like there's a different

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Speaker 1: flavor to what we're talking about with characters versus like

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Speaker 1: real people who are influencers and people with large platforms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when we're watching Haves and have nots, I don't know, right,

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Speaker 2: Real Housewives, I don't know whatever. Even though Real Housewives

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Speaker 2: is supposed to be reality, it's still on TV, right,

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Speaker 2: So I think when we watch film and television, there's

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Speaker 2: a sense in the background subconsciously we know this is

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Speaker 2: not real, or even if it's reality, it could very

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Speaker 2: well not be all the way real. Right. With social media,

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Speaker 2: these are real people. And in a lot of cases,

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Speaker 2: especially when we talk about some life style influencers, they

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Speaker 2: present as they're showing all aspects of their life from

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Speaker 2: the moment they wake up their morning routine, when they're

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Speaker 2: picking up their kiddos when they're packing lunch, when they're

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Speaker 2: going on date night, get ready with me, their nighttime routine,

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Speaker 2: when they're going to work out. It's like constant, right,

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Speaker 2: And these images are accessible twenty or seven. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: you can watch the same movie and over and over again,

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Speaker 2: but you know what to expect, right, And it's kind

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Speaker 2: of like over and over and over. With an influencer

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Speaker 2: or even a celebrity who documents a large portion of

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Speaker 2: their life on social media, it's always something new, right,

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Speaker 2: It's always tantalizing the census. It's building our adrenaline, right,

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Speaker 2: and it's creating that connection right if they open up.

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Speaker 2: I remember I was just with my mother in law.

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Speaker 2: We were driving down the freeway and she was on

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Speaker 2: Instagram and someone I guess on Instagram was or maybe

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Speaker 2: it was TikTok, I'm not sure, but they were crying

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Speaker 2: because they didn't pass the bar exam. And she said this,

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Speaker 2: so idd a baby boomer, Why would this person record

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Speaker 2: themselves while they are crying over not passing the bar exam. Well,

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Speaker 2: I don't know why they did it, but advantage to

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Speaker 2: them is, you know, likes engagement all these pieces. But

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Speaker 2: on the other end right on their followers and they

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Speaker 2: feel connected. Right, Oh my gosh, this person being vulnerable

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Speaker 2: with me. They just had this huge disappointment they didn't

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Speaker 2: pass the bar exam. Oh my gosh. Or I didn't

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Speaker 2: pass the bar exam either. Wow. Now I feel heavily

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Speaker 2: connected to this person, and that is everywhere all throughout

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Speaker 2: social media. So that increases the potential for this like

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Speaker 2: heavier attachment in these relationships to become stronger, and for

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Speaker 2: people's loyalty and connection with these individuals to feel more

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Speaker 2: fierce and more severe because they're constantly accessible, the emotions

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Speaker 2: are higher, the content or the images are present as

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Speaker 2: realer or more rooted in reality, and in a lot

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Speaker 2: of cases, they're positioned in a way so that people

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Speaker 2: do feel like they can relate to them, Right, that's

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Speaker 2: the whole name of the game. And so it's increasing

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Speaker 2: kind of the prevalence of these connections, and it's creating

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Speaker 2: more in depth connections when they are created, I think.

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Speaker 1: But still one sided, right, It's still.

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Speaker 2: One sided, nonetheless, absolutely, Even if your favorite influencer happens

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Speaker 2: to follow you back, right, it's still very much one side.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't mean you're going to go to dinner with

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Speaker 2: them tomorrow night, right, so it's still this one sided relationship.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, mm hmm. So I want to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about like black women who have some of these

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Speaker 1: large platforms.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So you already mentioned kind of Beyonce and Rihanna and celebrities,

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Speaker 1: you know, the barbs who kind of have these fandoms

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Speaker 1: around celebrities. But I think even people who are not

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Speaker 1: necessarily like celebrities in those traditional senses. We see even

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Speaker 1: some of the reality TV stars like Landria from Love

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Speaker 1: Island or Sierra from Summer House, right, like all of

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Speaker 1: these conversations that often come about as they have appeared

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Speaker 1: on these shows, but then we get wrapped up in

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Speaker 1: their storylines, and then when they move out of these Orlandry,

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Speaker 1: you're like, once she's off the Island, or once Erra

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Speaker 1: has left the house, then like they get back onto

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Speaker 1: their social media and realize, oh my gosh, like all

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Speaker 1: of this stuff has unfolded. And they both made comments

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Speaker 1: about feeling like they had a certain responsibility as black

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Speaker 1: women with these kinds of platforms. Can you talk about

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Speaker 1: like the responsibility of the pressure that sometimes exists when

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Speaker 1: you are a black women who amassed is this kind

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Speaker 1: of a platform.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, So that almost speaks to where I was

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Speaker 2: saying in terms of the roles and responsibilities that are

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Speaker 2: passed off or delegated to black women, but flipped right,

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Speaker 2: so not as the fan or me right, but the

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Speaker 2: influencer right. And so that is where they might be

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Speaker 2: scrutinized even more, where there might be a higher expectation

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Speaker 2: for them to utilize their platforms in certain ways. There

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Speaker 2: have been certain and I know certain influencers in the

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Speaker 2: makeup space and the wellness space who have gotten a

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Speaker 2: lot of flack from their followers from not speaking out

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Speaker 2: during Black Lives Matter, that type of thing. And one

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Speaker 2: of the individuals shot back, like, I have my beliefs,

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Speaker 2: I support in the ways that I support, but I

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Speaker 2: choose to have that support be private and not document that.

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Speaker 2: And why are you all not expecting the same out

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Speaker 2: of other influencers in that same way? And so I

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Speaker 2: do think that when it comes to black women influencers,

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Speaker 2: there is more of this pressure of Okay, now, what

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Speaker 2: are they going to say to that? How are they

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Speaker 2: going to respond to this? This law just got passed.

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Speaker 2: Now what are their response going to be? You know,

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Speaker 2: this president just got elected. Now what are they going

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Speaker 2: to say? And then if they don't say anything, then

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Speaker 2: there's this automatic defensiveness in this line of questioning and

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Speaker 2: then even assuming where they might stand in certain areas,

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Speaker 2: especially when it comes to politics and what's going on.

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Speaker 2: And I think this is also exacerbate. We already have

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Speaker 2: that again with these responsibilities that are put on black women.

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Speaker 2: But I think because we live in such sensitive times

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Speaker 2: right now, and such tumultuous and divisive times right now,

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Speaker 2: folks rightly or wrongly, are looking for answers, They're looking

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Speaker 2: for support. They're looking for folks I feel like we'll

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Speaker 2: fight for them, and that who will advocate for them?

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Speaker 2: And who better to advocate for them than their favorite

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Speaker 2: influencer who they've been following for the last five six

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Speaker 2: years and who have supported through thick and thin. Right

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Speaker 2: so now they feel like I've invested in you, So

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Speaker 2: now I want you to support what I support. Right now,

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Speaker 2: I want you to respond in this way to this

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Speaker 2: issue that might disenfranchise or further marginalize people who look

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Speaker 2: like you and me. And so in some ways, it

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Speaker 2: is an unfair expectation because a person can believe and

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Speaker 2: feel however they choose, and they can demonstrate those beliefs

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Speaker 2: in those feelings however they choose. But there also is

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Speaker 2: some validity to it because folks feel like they've invested right,

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Speaker 2: they've invested in these people. But I do think sometimes

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Speaker 2: it can get overboard, right, and there is an inequitable right,

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Speaker 2: there's an inequitable expectation level for black women influencers in particular.

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Speaker 1: It feels like we saw an example of this what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about earlier this year with the designer Anifa

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Speaker 1: from the Panifa. Yeah, so I'd love to hear your

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Speaker 1: thoughts on that because it does feel like, you know,

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Speaker 1: black women I think were largely like supporters of this brand,

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Speaker 1: but then you know, there were some customer service issues.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like and like you call it, supply demand,

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Speaker 1: like the stock was not held up and then people

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Speaker 1: were upset that they didn't get emails and those kinds

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Speaker 1: of things, And it does feel like that became this

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Speaker 1: like public dragging, so to speak, of this black women

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Speaker 1: who many people felt like they had supported. So it

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Speaker 1: sounds like a lot of what you're talking about played

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Speaker 1: out in that situation.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely. I love Hanifa. I bought many pieces from her.

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Speaker 2: So I love the brand. I love the brands so

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Speaker 2: and it was unfortunate for me because we often see

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Speaker 2: other brands that have different issues, you know, with productivity, quality,

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Speaker 2: their turnaround, how quickly you'll get your items after you

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Speaker 2: place the order and Mum's word. Folks will buy stuff

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Speaker 2: from Shechans just an example, and it might take two

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Speaker 2: months to get Fashion Nova. It might take them five

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Speaker 2: months to get right. I mean they might complain internally,

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Speaker 2: they might create a Reddit thread, but not drag the

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Speaker 2: company like they do Hanifa. And so I think there's

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Speaker 2: this piece again where we kind of lose our ability

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Speaker 2: to have grace and it's almost kind of this dehumanization piece, right,

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Speaker 2: And I think that comes with the strong black woman

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Speaker 2: trope of no, you're just supposed to produce, produce, produce, produce,

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Speaker 2: and that's it. There is no space for there was

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Speaker 2: a glitch. There is no space for our large shipment

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Speaker 2: didn't come in when you expected that it would, right,

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Speaker 2: there is no space for that within that In that

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Speaker 2: specific situation, I felt like some humanity was lost, and

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of folks forgot. You know, this

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Speaker 2: is still a small business, This is not I don't know, Gucci, Right,

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Speaker 2: this is not some large mega conglomerate with thousands of

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Speaker 2: employees and staffers and warehouses all over the country, right,

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Speaker 2: This is still a small business trying to maintain and

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Speaker 2: trying to do the best by their customers as possible.

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Speaker 2: And so I do think that there was a piece

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Speaker 2: where there might not have been as much grace given as.

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Speaker 1: What could have been m Yeah, and I think in

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Speaker 1: the fallout of that, we saw lots of other entrepreneurs

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Speaker 1: kind of come online talking about their own struggles with

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Speaker 1: building their businesses and being afraid of being the next one, right, like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm afraid to make mistakes in my

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Speaker 1: business because you know, maybe something like this could happen.

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Speaker 1: Could you talk about like the ways that these parasocial

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Speaker 1: relationships become internalized. I think both for the person who's

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Speaker 1: on the receiving side of the pair of social relationship

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Speaker 1: and the fans, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: Right well, on the receiving side, I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: we see it. I just went to an event a

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks ago, and I mean, I'm telling you,

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Speaker 2: they put on the rich, they had huge gift back,

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Speaker 2: and it was largely content creators and influencers, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think of myself as either. So I was like,

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Speaker 2: what am I here? But I was very honored and

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Speaker 2: very flattered to be there. And I mean there were

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Speaker 2: gift bags before you got there, they were mailed to you.

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Speaker 2: There were gift bags given to you when you got there,

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Speaker 2: I mean a five course amazing meal. They even sit

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Speaker 2: car service to pick you up and take you to

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Speaker 2: the event, right. And so I see a lot of

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Speaker 2: cases where influencers and brands and small businesses see the

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Speaker 2: value of their supporters and their followers, right, and they're

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Speaker 2: really like, we need to make an investment, just like

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Speaker 2: we would invest in a commercial scratch that we need

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Speaker 2: to put those funds in this area. But within that,

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Speaker 2: because they see that power, and because they see that

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Speaker 2: their fan base or their supporters are huge and instrumental

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Speaker 2: to their brand, whatever that brand may be, then there's

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Speaker 2: another pressure, right of what do I say about this?

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Speaker 2: How do I handle that? What do I think my

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Speaker 2: fans want to see more of? And constantly kind of pushing, pushing, pushing.

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Speaker 2: I could never be an influencer or a content creator.

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Speaker 2: I see my best friend has a small business and

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Speaker 2: I see all that she does with her team, just

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Speaker 2: on the social media and the reels, the stories. I'm

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Speaker 2: just like, and it's taken two three hours to make

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Speaker 2: one reel, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is insanity, right,

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Speaker 2: this is hard work, hard work. You see the influencers

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Speaker 2: who apologize I'm so sorry you all, I didn't post yesterday,

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Speaker 2: you know, feel like they have to apologize just for

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Speaker 2: one day of taking the self care day, or because

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Speaker 2: they've gotten sick or something like that. And so you

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Speaker 2: definitely see the internalized pressure within that. On the flip side,

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Speaker 2: with supporters, yeah, again, I think that internalized pressure comes into,

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Speaker 2: especially like I said, with black women in particular, feeling

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Speaker 2: like they have to support that person no matter what right,

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Speaker 2: no matter if that person is right or wrong, if

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Speaker 2: they mess up or not. So on the flip side,

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Speaker 2: even with a Hanipa fallout, there were a lot of

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Speaker 2: loyal folks that are like, listen, I don't care what

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Speaker 2: y'all say. I'm a writer, die for Hanifa, And yeah,

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Speaker 2: my order was, you know, too much late. But these

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Speaker 2: are my people and I've supported them over the years

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to continue to support them. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's also that on the flip side, that internalized pressure,

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Speaker 2: and even so not with Hanifa, but in other cases

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Speaker 2: where a person feels the need to support a person

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Speaker 2: to their own detriment, right when they're getting into arguments

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Speaker 2: with other people on social media about that person. In

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Speaker 2: a way, that's anxiety producing, right because they feel like

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Speaker 2: now they have have to defend that person, that they

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Speaker 2: have some type of moral obligation to that person. That's

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Speaker 2: when we see it kind of going that internalization again,

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Speaker 2: like I said, getting a little tricky and then implicating

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Speaker 2: and impacting mental health in that way.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, you know, it

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Speaker 1: does very much feel like this double edged sword, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean because all of the marketing will tell you that,

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Speaker 1: you know, the things that drive sales are like relatability,

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Speaker 1: you know, allowing your customers and your community to kind

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Speaker 1: of feel like they know you, right, so really leaning

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Speaker 1: into the parasocial news of these relationships. But as you

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Speaker 1: talked about, like there's also a lot that comes with that, right,

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Speaker 1: and I think they can be very lucrative, right, Like

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Speaker 1: when people feel like you are their bff, like they're

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Speaker 1: more likely to buy whatever lipstick shade you shared or

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Speaker 1: people are likely to lead into that. So there is

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Speaker 1: a reason I think people will want to author this

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Speaker 1: kind of relationship with their audience. But like you've mentioned,

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Speaker 1: there's also this other piece. So what is the line, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: is there a way to kind of navigate this where

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Speaker 1: you're aware of like, Okay, I don't want to go

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Speaker 1: too far with this, but I also like this is

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Speaker 1: kind of my business, right, Like how do you navigate that?

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, you definitely want to take those pieces into consideration,

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Speaker 2: those variables of Okay, this is what my supporters want

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Speaker 2: to see, This is what they need to see, This

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Speaker 2: is what benefits them, right, because inevitably you are providing

430
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 2: a service, Right, whether you are a clothing brand or

431
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: you're a lifestyle influencer, you're providing some type of service

432
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 2: where people are walking away with something. Right. However, it

433
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 2: goes back to your previous question when you see that

434
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: it's impacting your mental health or compromising your character or

435
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 2: who you are, Right, when you are now making decisions

436
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 2: in a way that you find an ethical, are going

437
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,959
Speaker 2: in a direction that you wouldn't normally go in with

438
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: regard to your character and what you believe in in

439
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 2: your belief system. That is when I think the line

440
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 2: needs to be drawn of, Like, you know, I know

441
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 2: they might want to see this, but I'm not willing

442
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 2: to do that, right. I know that this might make

443
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 2: me go viral, but I'm not willing to do that.

444
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: That's just a line I'm not willing to cross. And

445
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 2: I think that is sometimes you can get murky for

446
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: a lot of folks, especially as social media has become

447
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: increasingly more pervasive and individuals on social media are now

448
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 2: wanting to see more and more and more outrageous, controversial

449
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: things to kind of quench their thirst. But I think

450
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: drawing that line of when you see that you are

451
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: acting in ways that are uncharacteristic of who you truly

452
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 2: are that is right, or it's causing you significant distress

453
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 2: outside of the normal entrepreneurial influencer type stress, I think

454
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: that's where the line should be drawn. And likewise, for

455
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: supporters and followers, I think the same can be true.

456
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 2: Number one, Well, I know for Apple iPhone, I'm not

457
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 2: sure for Android users. But you have the ability to

458
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: see how many hours you're on social media or you're

459
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: on your phone, or you're on your Internet, and you

460
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 2: can get a full on report, and I encourage people

461
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: to look at that report to utilize that feature because

462
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,719
Speaker 2: if you see that you are on social media. You know,

463
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: everyone has a different number, but I would say more

464
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 2: than like four to six hours a day, and that's

465
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 2: even a lot. You might want to consider bringing that back, right,

466
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 2: because we know that social media addiction is real, right,

467
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 2: influencer or not. So that is definitely when you constantly

468
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 2: find yourself scrolling. You know, I know we've all gone

469
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 2: out to dinner and we'll look over at the table

470
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 2: next to us and everyone's on their phone, right, No

471
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: one's talking, they're just eating it on their phone, scrolling. Right.

472
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 2: When we get to that space, it might be time

473
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 2: to kind of reconsider our overall social media usergs, because

474
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: that's at the root of this. That is really it's

475
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 2: parasocial relationships are kind of a symptom of the root cause.

476
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: The root cause is our heavy engagement and our addiction

477
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 2: to social media. So let's be clear about that. So

478
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: we bring that back then, I think that then indirectly

479
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: helps us address the symptom. But then once we do

480
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 2: get on social media to address that again, if we're

481
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: arguing with folks and comments. If we're having negative emotional

482
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 2: reactions to things, if we're getting visibly upset with the

483
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: influencers that we're following because they didn't do or they

484
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: didn't say what we wanted them to say, instead of

485
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 2: just saying, eh, I don't like that they didn't do that,

486
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 2: or I don't like that they did do that unfollowed. Right,

487
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 2: if we're having like this visceral response, that is when

488
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: we need to draw the line. Right, we need to

489
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: keep in mind that social media should be used for

490
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: entertainment purposes point blank into story. So, as a mother

491
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: of three, you know, I have a eight year old,

492
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 2: a three year old, and a one year old, So

493
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 2: I follow tons of life style and influencers who have

494
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 2: kids as well, and sometimes they'll post things that I

495
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: can connect with about being a mom, about being a partner,

496
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 2: about being you know, a full time working mother in

497
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: all those pieces, and sometimes you know, certain posts will

498
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: make me cheer up, and because that connection is so

499
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: real to what they're talking about. But at the same time,

500
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 2: make no mistakes about it, I'm not going to argue

501
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: over them. I'm not going to fight over them. Right,

502
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: if they say something that is vastly opposed to my

503
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 2: core beliefs. I have no problem in following them I

504
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: have before, right, So, because at the end of the day,

505
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 2: although there is some connection and I do enjoy watching

506
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 2: their content, in the back of my head, I still

507
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: acknowledge this is for entertainment purposes only, right, And even

508
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 2: when I'm getting information, whether it be fitness or nutrition,

509
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: I'm also doing the research outside of what they're telling

510
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: me to verify what they're saying is actually true and

511
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: what I need to be following. Right. So, I think

512
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: keeping our feet firmly rooted and grounded in reality is

513
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 2: really key, and if we find ourselves not doing so again,

514
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: that's where we need to draw the line.

515
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: You know, you started off this conversation really talking about

516
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: like the importance of connection and like how they drives

517
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: so much of our social media usage. And you mentioned

518
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: the word connection several times, right, And I also see

519
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: and I think there is some validity to the ways

520
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: that we feel connected to other people online. And I

521
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: think we often get such a strong dose of like

522
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: a dopabine hit, and like it really lights up all

523
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: those parts of our brain that make us feel connected

524
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: that it often makes us feel as though, Oh, I

525
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: don't actually need to do anything with people in real

526
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: life because I've gotten all of these needs met online,

527
00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: which I think you know that can be some of

528
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: your connection. But I do worry that it has gone

529
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: too far that we've gotten so much of this from

530
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: online that we are not actually paying attention to in

531
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: real life connections.

532
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, there are some influencers ironically who looked at

533
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: the impact of this, and researchers as well who look

534
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: at the impact of this on white males, right, and

535
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: especially white males and gen z who have kind of

536
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 2: just gone inward and just stay on social media and

537
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: on video games, and that is their central spaces of

538
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 2: socialization and connection with other people and the mental health

539
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 2: implications of that. And also, and this has really emerged

540
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: in terms of looking at politics and how information around

541
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: politics is shared in various communities, and also how resentment

542
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 2: and anger about certain socio cultural, socio political things that

543
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: are going on in our world are kind of shared

544
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: in these echo chambers, right, And so there's definitely a

545
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: larger conversation to be had, even outside of just white

546
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: males in particular, of what's happening to us, right, we're

547
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: getting programmed where all we know how to do is comment,

548
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 2: but we don't know how to actually communicate.

549
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: Right.

550
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: We're raising children in future generations who do not know

551
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: how to communicate with their professors or their teachers in

552
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: professional ways because they're so used to being on social media.

553
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: Kids aren't going outside and playing. We live in a

554
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 2: neighborhood where kids actually play, and whenever someone comes and

555
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 2: visit us, they say, wow, kids in your neighborhood are

556
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 2: actually in the street playing. You rarely see that, right,

557
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: because either kids are on play dates, they're in some

558
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 2: type of sports or extracurricular activity, or been on social

559
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: media a lot of times, right, and they're interacting with

560
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: their peers in those ways, predominantly social media. They're not

561
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 2: outside playing, So we lose some of that. And I

562
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: feel like there's a lot of research to this point,

563
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 2: but I feel like the pandemic played a huge role

564
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: in assisting or increasing the likelihood that we all kind

565
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: of just move. We go in right, we turn inward,

566
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: and we look at social media for those connections and

567
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: those relationships, and we've actually lost a piece of that.

568
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: So in some respects, yes, it's amazing for connection in

569
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: those areas. But again, it goes back to those boundaries,

570
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 2: right or where do you draw the line? If you

571
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: find that your only source of communication and connection and

572
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 2: community is online, then that might be a sign of Okay,

573
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: maybe I need to move it over here in this

574
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: direction and actually reach out and to other groups, right,

575
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: whether it be a walking group, whether it be Bible study,

576
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: what have you, to create outside connection, because I do

577
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: feel like that definitely is a potential and I think

578
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: a lot of people are kind of dealing with implications

579
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: of that right now, especially children and younger folks.

580
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: You mentioned that a lot of the research has been

581
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: done on white males. I mean a lot of research

582
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: is done on white males, but in this situation in

583
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: picular or not right right, And you've talked about like

584
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: the strong black women trope, So I imagine that is

585
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: one way that you would have met like if this

586
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: research was done on black women, this would maybe be

587
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: a part of what you'd be interested in finding or

588
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: be curious about what you would find as it relates

589
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: to this trope, other other things that you think we

590
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: might find or you'd be curious about if we were

591
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: looking at black women as a group, and our relationship

592
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 1: to like influencers and our behavior online.

593
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: I'm actually currently working on a study right now that

594
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: looks at black women within the current social political climate,

595
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: within the context of social media and AI, and even

596
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 2: looking at gifts and memes and how gifts and memes

597
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: are portray black women, right, how that then shapes how

598
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: we look at ourselves, so not only how other people

599
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 2: look at us, but how we look at ourselves and

600
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: how we show up to the world, right And then

601
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 2: how that all ties into our current social political climate

602
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: and what's going on in politics right now, and the

603
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 2: value that we ultimately place on ourselves and how we

604
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: treat ourselves and how we care for ourselves and like

605
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 2: I said, the type of grace that we show ourselves

606
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: and how we should show up in the world. I

607
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: think it largely comes down to identity. I think there's

608
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 2: a lot of confusion around identity. On one hand, you

609
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 2: had Felicia Rashad as Claire Huxtable, but then a little

610
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: few years later you also had Little Cam and Foxy Brown, right,

611
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: And those are two polar opposites, but you understood both

612
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: were entertainment, but they both kind of counteracted and balanced

613
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 2: one another right right now, I don't think black women

614
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: have the balance. I think that we're largely seeing one

615
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: protot type, right or monolith of what black women look

616
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: like on the large scale. Right on the large scale,

617
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: and mainstream media and mainstream television and mainstream film the

618
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: posts that actually go viral on social media more than others, right.

619
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: And so I think there's a lot to be said

620
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: about how that is impacting how women are identifying themselves

621
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: and shaping themselves and ultimately how they view themselves, because,

622
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 2: like I said earlier, representation does matter, and I don't

623
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 2: know that we have as much robust representation on social media,

624
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: even like when I said, even when it comes down

625
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 2: to memes and gifts as let's say white women. Right.

626
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: So you mentioned that even you know, when you're looking

627
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: at like the parenting influences online and like people other

628
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 1: moms that you follow, you're taking the information but also

629
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: then going to researcher for yourself, vetting kind of the information.

630
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: And I think that that is a very wise strategy. Right.

631
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: Can you talk more about like media literacy is basically

632
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: what you're talking about. Can you talk more about like

633
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: some of those stretsies that we can employ to make

634
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: sure that we are getting credible information from maybe some

635
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 1: of our favorite online implementers.

636
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, so again remembering that things are entertainment. Yes,

637
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: definitely going back and doing the research on your own

638
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: and also being kind with yourself with that. You might

639
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: not have to research every little thing you come in

640
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 2: contact with. Some things are just very straightforward and they

641
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,720
Speaker 2: just are what they are and it's kind of common sense.

642
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 2: So also having some grace with yourself and being smart

643
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 2: about that as well. Going back to the boundary piece, right,

644
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: if this is doing anything to your mental health, that

645
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 2: is not serving you. Right, So, if your level of

646
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 2: engagement on social media or with an influencer or a

647
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 2: celebrity or even politically is affecting you in a way

648
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: that does not serve you, take a step back. Just

649
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 2: last summer, with everything that was going on politically, I

650
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 2: had to take a step back. I did not go

651
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 2: on social media, and I didn't watch news. And I

652
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 2: am someone who is an avid news watcher, Like, literally

653
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: all day long I watched the news, but I stopped

654
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 2: for about four months, maybe five, because it was just

655
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: too much. It was just too much for me and

656
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,959
Speaker 2: it impacted my writing impacked my research at the time,

657
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 2: but I needed to take that time away because I

658
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: was just my nervous system was completely disregulated. And so

659
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: I would say that's huge. When you find that your

660
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 2: nervous system is shot right, you're experiencing disregulation, it is

661
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 2: time to take a step back, listening to yourself, listening

662
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 2: to your body, listening to your nervous system, and having

663
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 2: balance right, And so that kind of feeds into some

664
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: of these other pieces, having balance outside of social media,

665
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 2: having activities and hobbies and interests outside of social media

666
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: that anchor you and that bring you joy and that

667
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: bring you peace. Instead of picking up we know we

668
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: love to scroll on social media right before going to bed.

669
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 2: That's probably not the best idea. We know research tells

670
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 2: us you sh not watch TV or beyond social media

671
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 2: at least thirty minutes before going to bed anyway, right,

672
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: But if you want to do something to kind of unwine,

673
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 2: you know, right before bed or before that thirty minutes

674
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,839
Speaker 2: be prior to bed, pick up a book right, Pick

675
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 2: up a book if you're not in a book's journal, right,

676
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 2: find something to do, meditate right, pray right, but find

677
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: something that will anchor you, that will ground you, that

678
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 2: will calm your nervous system before going to bed. That

679
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: does not have anything to do with social media. So

680
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: I think a large part of this is about establishing boundaries,

681
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: establishing boundaries between yourself and social media and really being

682
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 2: clear in your mind that this is for entertainment, This

683
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: is only to enrich my life. This is only to

684
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: add to my life and to serve me, not to

685
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: cause me stress, not to cause me strength. But social

686
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: media and influencers and celebrities alike, So I think those

687
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: are the main pieces to keep in mind when navigating

688
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: social media and interact with our faiths when it comes

689
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 2: to influencers and celebrities, and.

690
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: Like more from our conversation after the break, I really

691
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: appreciate what you have to say about like giving ourselves

692
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: grace and being patient with ourselves because just I think

693
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: about the ways that we are talking about, like our

694
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: relationship to social media, it is largely something that should

695
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: be considered similar to a substance, right, like all of

696
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: the addictive kinds of things. And you know all the

697
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: people who are like on payroll and social media companies

698
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: whose full job is to make sure that you stay

699
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: on there. The longest, Right, I think even as you're

700
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: mentioning this, I think it can be really hard to

701
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: like do some of these things, like not look at

702
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: it right before bed. Like we really are in a

703
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: choke hold in a lot of ways in our relationship

704
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: to social media.

705
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, there are psychologists, that is, who study this, who

706
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 2: study how do we get PEP people coming back?

707
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: Right?

708
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 2: What algorithms do we push? What algorithms to certain segments

709
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: of users? Do we push that they want to see? Right?

710
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: And that's their job to keep us locked in and

711
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: to keep that addiction going. And yes, social media addiction

712
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 2: is very real, whether it be gaming, whether it be

713
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 2: Instagram and so forth, whether it be YouTube, that's all

714
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: social media. Right. I teach and Addictions and Counseling course frequently.

715
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: In fact, I'm going to be teaching one in the fall,

716
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 2: and we talk for two weeks about social media addiction,

717
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 2: just because I feel like in some cases it's something

718
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 2: that my students can relate to more than let's say,

719
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: an addiction to an opioid, right, even though that is

720
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: very real and necessary topic, but social media is also

721
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 2: just as real and also just as necessary to talk

722
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 2: about because it is real and we're seeing it among

723
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: younger and younger and younger and younger folks. My one

724
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 2: year old will be too soon, but she's like fighting

725
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: me for my phone because there's something about all those

726
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 2: images and those colors, and because she's seen her older

727
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,479
Speaker 2: sister on her iPad and things like that. We see

728
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 2: kids they just zone out and they become zombies when

729
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: they're on social media. There's a lot of research telling

730
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: number one to limit kids social media should begin with.

731
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 2: But if they are going to watch social media, making

732
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 2: sure that the reels and the videos that they're watching

733
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 2: are over three minutes long. So there are these implications

734
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 2: where we see these pieces and you know in social

735
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 2: media where people are becoming addicted in that addiction and

736
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 2: that crutch is developing at earlier and earlier stages to

737
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 2: the point where they don't know how to communicate or

738
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: they're not comfortable creating connection outside of social media, like

739
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: what we were talking about before.

740
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: So I'm curious to hear more because I am sure

741
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: of the ways that you and I both were in

742
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: our counselor training programs, like the things we talked about.

743
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 1: Some of that is still in TEG but we definitely

744
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: didn't not have conversations about social media addiction when I

745
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: was becoming a therapist. So I'm curious to hear what

746
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: other kinds of like technology infuse kinds of conversations are

747
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: we talking about, like trainees and new therapists to be

748
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: that maybe didn't exist like five to ten years ago.

749
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:23,439
Speaker 2: AI, Chat, GPT, CLOUDE, whatever. AI is huge, huge, and

750
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 2: not just from I mean from a writing perspective, but

751
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: more so from a thinking perspective, where individuals are losing

752
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 2: their ability to analytically and critically think without the assistance

753
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 2: of AI. I know people who it's hard for them

754
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 2: to construct text messages if there's a conflict without the

755
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: use of AI, and so we talk a lot about that.

756
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 2: So when we talk about social media, AI is typically

757
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 2: the conversation that we have the following week. It's kind

758
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: of in that sane unit of content that we cover

759
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: in class an addiction, because the use of AI can

760
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 2: create an addiction in and of itself right again, where

761
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,720
Speaker 2: you feel like you cannot communicate or you cannot think

762
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 2: without this resource or this assistance, and then it gets

763
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: to a point where it becomes increasingly hard for you

764
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: to do so because now your brain has become so

765
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 2: used to picking up the phone or opening up your

766
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 2: laptop and going on chat, GBT or claude to help

767
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: you think through a problem, just the everyday problem, or

768
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 2: how you're going to deal with something with your boss,

769
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 2: or how you're going to write a letter, or how

770
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 2: you're gonna even write, like I said, a text message.

771
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: What are you going to say in an interview? It

772
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: was interesting we were interviewing prospective students not too long ago,

773
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 2: well this might have been a year ago. We could

774
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: tell that the person we were interviewing was utilizing AI

775
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 2: to help them throughout the interview, so we kind of

776
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: threw curveball and they were just completely just lost. They

777
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 2: were unable to recover from that. And I think this

778
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 2: just really speaks to the pervasiveness of AI, and there's

779
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, I guess beneficial things to

780
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 2: AI if used responsibly, but like with social media, responsibility

781
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: is a sloppery slope for folks sometimes and can become detrimental.

782
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 2: What do you think?

783
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: This is something I am also just enormously fascinated with

784
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: because it just feels like there are just so many

785
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: like dark rabbit holes to go down with this AI

786
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: situation and how it impacts our mental health. But you know,

787
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: like I'm thinking about like the example you just gave us, right,

788
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: Like somebody who's preparing for like a counseling program like

789
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: grad school interview. Historically, that would likely be something you

790
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 1: would google, right and like get some tips, maybe some

791
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 1: testimonies from previous students, and like you would use that

792
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: to inform the way you show up for your own interview. Right,

793
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: But it feels like there's something that feels like so

794
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: sticky about AI that is, like you didn't just use

795
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: it to like help you prepare, Like you're actively using

796
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: it as a part of the interview. Like do you

797
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: have any ideas about why you think that is? Like,

798
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 1: cause in my mind it feels like, oh, you could

799
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: have just googled that and you would have gotten like

800
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: some blog posts to read, like you could have prepared

801
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: yourself to show up. But this feels very different, like

802
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: the relationship people have with AI versus just like googling something.

803
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 1: Do you have any ideas about what that might be?

804
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: So the first thing I think is the difference is,

805
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: let's say I have a job interview. I wist certainly

806
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: will google and research the heck out of whatever, so

807
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 2: I can be better prepared, right, And I'm gonna make notes,

808
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna rehearse, and I'm going to do all

809
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 2: the things that we should do when we're preparing for

810
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 2: an interview that we really care about. The distinction is

811
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 2: I'm not then utilizing a continuous resource to help me

812
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 2: think through things throughout the interview process. So I've created

813
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 2: these notes, I've kind of used them to help me,

814
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: and then we're done. So any questions are out of

815
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 2: the ordinary or that might deviate from that research that

816
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: I've done, Now I can pivot. I can shift, and

817
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 2: I can critically think, and I can access my knowledge.

818
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: I can access my skills and my expertise to answer

819
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: those questions hopefully right. The difference with AI is if

820
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: a person has the ability and they're on a zoom

821
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 2: meeting or interview, they could potentially hurry up and ask

822
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: a question on the spot, So it takes that responsibility

823
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: off of them of being able to pivot. We know

824
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 2: the brain is a muscle, right, and so if we

825
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,240
Speaker 2: don't use it, we lose it. So then we start

826
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 2: to rely on this resource when we need to pivot

827
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 2: and think on our feet and think it critically at

828
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 2: the drop of a hat, because now we've relyed during

829
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: an interview on this resource to help us. Also, I

830
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: think the distinction is and I actually just wrote an

831
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: article and Forbes about this on Forbes and Medium about

832
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 2: the relationships that individuals are creating with AI. So again

833
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 2: not just becoming dependent in terms of you know, help

834
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 2: me figure out, you know, how to navigate this conflict

835
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 2: with my husband, but you are my husband, right, and

836
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 2: that is actually a thing. So they utilize this resource

837
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 2: so much that they feel like this is another person.

838
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: They forget that this is basically a computer, this is

839
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 2: not a human being, and they create a relationship and

840
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 2: they call this person their partner. There are documented cases

841
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 2: of this. Now we can also argue that there might

842
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 2: be some other mental health implications for individuals who blurd

843
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 2: align that dramatically. But so that's an extreme situation. But

844
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 2: there are similar situations where they might not call this

845
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 2: person their boyfriend, their girlfriend, their partner, but they go

846
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 2: to them in the same way, right, They utilize them

847
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 2: and rely on them just in the same way. And

848
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 2: that's very different from doing a Google Go search.

849
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, some more to come clearly on that conversation.

850
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 2: Is rapidly evolving, and as time goes on, yea, I

851
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 2: will be able to do more and we'll just see

852
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 2: how we as if people respond and you know, yeah, right,

853
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 2: it's crazy.

854
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: So as we read dog askin what do you think

855
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: parasocial relationships can tell us about our relationships in real life?

856
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 2: Oh, some of them need work. I think some of

857
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: them do. Yeah, some of them do. I think we

858
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 2: need to go back to the basics and go back

859
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,879
Speaker 2: to you know, I'm an eighties baby, so go back

860
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 2: to the eighties. There is this phone called a tin can.

861
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: All my mom friends like, oh, so in so that

862
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 2: a tin can? You know, so a tin can is

863
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: like a landline, and so who would have thought that

864
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 2: this idea would be making money when real life it's

865
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: been around since right, So it's crazy, but it's this

866
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 2: new thing and everyone, oh, let me get a tank

867
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 2: an line's coming in June. What's your phone number? You know,

868
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: all this for the kids, but it's some of that, right,

869
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 2: this idea of just getting back to the basics, taking

870
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 2: it back, going back pre pandemic, because our relationships are suffering, right,

871
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 2: Teaching kids positive conflict resolution with one another. A friend

872
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 2: of mine got our oldest daughter a book on and

873
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 2: she's a book on how to work out conflict with

874
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: your friends, and we started reading it because now she

875
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: and her little girlfriends are having little fights and little things,

876
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 2: you know, right, But that's what this is about, right, Like,

877
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 2: how do you talk it out? How do you go

878
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 2: up to someone and make friends? Again, these basic cardinal

879
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 2: skills that we were all taught as kids. How do

880
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: you say hi, my name is? Can I play with you? Like,

881
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,439
Speaker 2: back to the basics, right, because we've lost that, we've

882
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 2: lost that. So again, there are benefits. They can help

883
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,439
Speaker 2: individuals who might have challenges in the area of being

884
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: a little bit more outgoing or extroverted and you know,

885
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 2: so social media may help them in those ways build

886
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 2: their self esteem, build their self confidence, help them develop

887
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 2: talking points so that they do fel a little bit

888
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,879
Speaker 2: more comfortable going out, you know, developing and creating those

889
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: connections in those relationships. So it could definitely work out

890
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 2: in a positive way in that way. However, as we

891
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 2: said earlier, if not careful, right, and if we don't

892
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: have boundaries in place, it is a slippery slope where

893
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 2: you know, we can lose sight of those connections and

894
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 2: those relationships and our ability to connect and even our

895
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 2: desire to want to connect with people because now we

896
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 2: feel like we are connecting with influencers or AI or

897
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 2: whatever else, but in this case per social relationships with

898
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: influencers or celebrities. Yeah, so both ways. But again I

899
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: think that there is some overall work that we need

900
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 2: to do a little bit.

901
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not going to ask. And this has been

902
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 1: so great to chat with you. Where can we stay

903
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: connected with you and read the new pieces that you

904
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: have come, you know, follow the research that you said

905
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: you're doing. What's your website as well as any social

906
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: media channels you'd like to show?

907
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 2: You know what the best way to find me is

908
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 2: Forbes Women, Forbes Women, And like I said, I know,

909
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: to just go to Forbes, go to Leadership, and then

910
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 2: Forbes Women. But if you even just google Maya Hoskin Forbes,

911
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 2: all my stuff comes up. And like I said, I'm

912
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: far from an influenceror a creator, and so I need

913
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 2: to do better. I need to create a website. Can

914
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 2: you believe that I'm so so much in a dark age?

915
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 2: I don't have a website, So doctor Joy, you have

916
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 2: put that at the friend of mine to do list.

917
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 2: I'm going to create a website. Yeah crazy, but definitely Forbes.

918
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 2: That would be the best place to find me. Yes,

919
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 2: and you can contact me. You know, we've comments on

920
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 2: my on my articles and everything perfect.

921
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: We'll make sure to include links to some of your

922
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: pieces from Forbes in our show notes. Thank you so

923
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: much for shening some time with us today. I appreciate it.

924
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, doctor Joy. It's been a blast. Thanks.

925
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: I'm so glad doctor Hoskin was able to join me

926
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: for this incredible conversation. To learn more about her and

927
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: her work, be sure to visit the show notes at

928
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session four seventy, and

929
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: don't forget to text this episode the two of your

930
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 1: girls right now and tell them to check it out.

931
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail

932
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: with your questions or suggestions for the podcast. If you

933
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: have thoughts about topics we should discuss.

934
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 2: Drop us a.

935
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 1: Message at memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls

936
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: and let us know what's on your mind. We just

937
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for

938
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: a therapist in your area. Visit our therapist directory at

939
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to

940
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and

941
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 1: come on over and join us in our Patreon community

942
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content, and much more.

943
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot Therapy for blackgirls

944
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Alice Ellis, Inde Chubu,

945
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 1: and Bria Moseley. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford.

946
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.

947
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,439
Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all

948
00:52:58,600 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: real soon.

949
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 2: Take good here,