WEBVTT - Coroner to the Stars, The Dr. Thomas Noguchi Story 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:21.360 Mother Knows Dad starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk Hi. Everyone. 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:24.520 Welcome to Mother Knows Death. One of the advantages to 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.120 this job and having this position on this podcast is 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.880 that we get advanced copies of people's books. And we 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:35.800 recently received a copy of a book by an author 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:40.040 named doctor Ann Sue Chen who came out with well, 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:42.120 she didn't come out with it yet. It's coming out 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:43.199 on when's it coming out? 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:44.720 April twenty second. 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:46.920 April twenty second, So it's in the works, but we 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.000 had a copy of it. We're able to read it, 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.880 and it is titled La Coroner, Thomas Negucci and Death 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.279 in Hollywood. And you guys will love this because we 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.800 think the juiciest subjects on this show are the celebrity deaths, 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:01.760 and there's a lot of them in this book. 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.319 Yeah. So I actually read this book in about two days, 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.200 and I thought it was a pretty easy read and 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:11.240 definitely kept my attention the entire time. Just briefly, it 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.560 goes over the career of doctor Thomas Negucci, who is 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:18.240 the chief coroner in La County. Between nineteen sixty seven 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.600 and nineteen eighty two. He had a brief suspension in 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.000 nineteen sixty nine, which we'll talk about a little bit 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:26.480 in this episode and goes into more detail in the book. 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.920 But crazy enough, he is still alive at ninety years 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:34.840 old and he inspired the TV show Quincy's That's really cool. Yeah, 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.319 So we're going to start off talking about the deaths 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.880 of Marilyn Monroe and getting another one such as Bobby Kennedy, 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:42.800 Sharon Tate, and Natalie Wood. 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.000 Let's talk about this for a second, because I just 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.760 think by by proxy, like you, if you work in 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.360 Los Angeles and you're either a cop, a firefighter, an 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:00.440 EMS person, or you're a coroner, you're going to see 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:05.000 the most celebrities of any other offices in the entire country, 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.960 just because most of the celebrities are either working in 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.960 Los Angeles or living in Los Angeles. And what happens is, 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:16.200 especially when it comes to coroners and where your autopsy 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.680 is done. If you die, it's done by jurisdiction. So 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.720 Marilyn Monroe, she had died in Los Angeles and the 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.400 jurisdiction is the Los Angeles Coroner's Office, So there are 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.160 going to be the ones that do the autopsy. And 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.680 that's almost across the country. Is where you die is 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.800 where you have the autopsy. It doesn't necessarily matter where 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.840 you're from, it's where you die. So even actors that 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.360 are visiting Hollywood that die would still get the autopsy 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.520 done at the LA Coroner's office, which is why we 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:51.680 hear that they're involved in so many celebrity deaths. So 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.840 let's start off first by talking about Marilyn Monroe. So 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.560 we did a celebrity death dissection in the gross room 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.640 probably five years ago. She was one of the first 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:09.760 ones I've ever did in the groceryroom. So Nogucci, he's 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:14.360 a what was he like a a junior pathologist at 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.960 the time. He was just newly working there at the 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:22.600 Medical Examiner's office there in Los Angeles, and he went 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:26.160 to work as usual that Monday, it was August fifth, 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.560 nineteen sixty two, and on his desk he found a 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.520 message from the Chief Medical Examiner. So the chief medical 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:34.840 Examiner is kind of the boss that overlooks all of 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.440 the other medical examiners underneath of them, and it said, 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:43.360 quote doctor Kurfey wants doctor Nagochi to do the autopsy 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:47.000 on Marilyn Monroe, which I kind of think is kind 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:51.160 of interesting that the chief medical examiner would not be 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.720 the one that was like, I'm putting my name on 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.520 this because this is going to be a big frickin' deal. 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.440 Well, do you think that's maybe why he didn't, because 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:01.520 he knew this was going to be such a problem 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:03.480 and he didn't want to be associated with it. 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.800 Yeah, I'm sure, I think so. There's two different things 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.760 that I could think of. It's either that or maybe 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.240 Nogucci at that time had such a good reputation for 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:18.080 being meticulous and being able to determine cause of death 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:21.719 that maybe he felt he felt that he would be 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:25.320 the best to do it. Although I'm sure I'm sure 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.720 it's the former. Like you understand, I just think it's 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:33.280 a little unusual. Most high profile cases, the chief will 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:35.599 be like, Okay, I'll be the one that steps in 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:41.800 on this. So Marilyn was so anybody that listens to 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.320 the show probably knows the deal, and we don't have 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:48.640 to get super into all of the details, but there 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.680 were some suspicious findings immediately with just how the whole 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:56.200 thing went down. She was found dead, She was naked, 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:00.000 which is unusual, She was in a weird unnatural position 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.760 with her right hand gripping the telephone receiver as if 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:07.400 somebody was intentionally trying to set her up to look 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.599 that way. And there were bottles containing sleeping pills on 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:15.800 the bedside, so that was unusual. And then there was 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:19.799 also do you remember there was like some unusual things 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:23.720 with the way the housekeeper acted to Apparently the housekeeper 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:28.480 had called her psychiatrist before calling police, and like a 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:32.120 whole entire hour before calling police. And then when the 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:36.560 police showed up, the housekeeper, who was also considered to 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:40.000 be Marilyn Monroe's friend, had had a load of wash running, 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.599 which is unusual. Like if you're a housekeeper living with 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:45.839 a person taking care of them, in friends with a person, 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.160 why on earth would you think about doing a load 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:50.560 of wash while this person's laying dead and the police 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:52.920 are there investigating their death. It's just bizarre. 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.720 I could she have thrown it in before she found 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:57.320 her No. 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:01.359 I think that they determined that whatever time of the 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.120 cycle it was, that it was done after they determined 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.599 that she had died. So there was just like a 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.479 little bit of weirdness around there. So I mean, and 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.200 it's Marilyn Monroe and and and there's a million things. 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:18.000 So he gets the body to the medical examiner's office 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.360 and he does the autopsy, and he said that nothing 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:27.599 really looked abnormal about her organs. Whenever you find someone dead. 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.320 Who's she was, how old was she? 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:30.840 She was young? 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:32.640 She was young. 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.839 She was young. Yeah, look that up exactly, because she 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:37.880 was either in her late twenties or early thirties, but 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:40.599 she was very young. You find somebody dead that has 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:45.720 now Marilyn Monroe has a history of previous suicide attempts, 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:50.600 a history of taking these medications. So whenever you see that, 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.160 you see the pills at the bedside, you're thinking, okay, 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:56.520 it's possible that she did take her own life. So 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:00.280 he does the autopsy, and of course he's thinking as 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:02.360 well when he does it. But then when he gets 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.400 to her stomach, he finds nothing in her stomach, which 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.839 means that she didn't swallow a whole bunch of pills 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.200 and then die. That didn't happen because he didn't find 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:16.080 any undigested pills in her upper gi track like that. 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.000 And that's something that you would see when somebody was 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:21.840 having an act of desperation and just taking a lot 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.320 of pills at one time, so he thought that that 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.040 was a little weird and did question it. But he 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:33.280 sent all of this stuff to get tested for toxicology, 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:37.480 which would include samples of her liver, blood and things 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:41.280 like that, and the toxicology came back and there was 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:45.880 this head toxicologist and he had said that the levels 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:52.360 of pentobarbital and chlorohydrate were fatal and they decided based 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.640 on that that she died of a drug overdose and 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:02.040 her manner of death was suicide. Now, the thing that 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.440 doctor Nagochi had brought up in the future was that 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.960 he was, like we said, he was a junior pathologist. 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.840 He didn't have any experience or say in much because 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.200 he didn't want to question this chief toxicologist that had 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.720 all this experience over him. But he was kind of 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.080 thinking it was a little weird that they didn't run 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:26.800 the toxicology on the actual stomach contents as well as 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:29.760 other organs that he had asked them to do, and 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:31.960 they kind of blew them off to do like a 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:36.560 more thorough autopsy just to cross off any concern that 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.720 there might be. So that was one of the things 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:44.719 that started being concerning to people as far as them 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:50.480 just automatically saying that she died of suicide. And sometimes 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:54.760 when you determine, because when anybody overdoses on any kind 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:58.120 of drugs, whether it's legal drugs or prescription drugs, you 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.800 always have to take into consideration some of the circumstances 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:06.000 that will determine if the manner of death was an accident, 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:10.120 or if the manner of death was suicide, or if 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.560 the manner of death was homicide, which we'll get into 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.280 a minute with that because that sounds a little weird, 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:20.320 but with suicide you will check. So she did have 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.840 a history of previous suicide attempts, which is very strong, 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:27.679 but there was no suicide note and there were no 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.200 undigestive pills in her stomach, So that has to make 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:32.520 you think like, Okay, this didn't seem like an acute 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:36.040 thing that she that she killed herself, so let's look 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:40.000 at other things that could be done. So the next 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.080 thing you're going to look at is okay, okay, well 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.200 was this an accident? Did she maybe take too many 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:50.680 of these medications together by accident? And now those questions 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.040 are really out the window because they didn't check the 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.640 stomach contents, so they don't even know if the pills 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:58.160 were digested or if those things were in her system 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:02.680 for a little bit longer. And the reason that I 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:06.960 bring up homicide in this case is because, in my 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:11.800 personal opinion, so we do know that there's been all 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.280 of these theories going on for the past however many 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:18.600 years that Marilyn was killed by the Kennedys, that there 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:20.600 was something associated with the Kennedys. 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.920 Well, you really can't ignore the connection to them, and they're, 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.839 you know, infamous curse that everybody no. 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:32.240 I yeah, and I'm not. But but based upon what 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:35.600 I see, I honestly would say that her manner of 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:39.120 death should be homicide, but not because of the Kennedy's involvement, 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.720 but because of It's kind of like a Michael Jackson 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:48.320 case in which Marilyn Monroe had inappropriate relationships with her 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:53.640 doctors getting VIP treatment medications she shouldn't be on. She 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:57.840 had a strong family history of psychological disease, personal family 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.880 history of psychological disease, and then it was like she 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.480 had a personal physician and a psychiatrist that were not 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.040 in great communication with each other about what medications they 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:11.359 were giving her, and she was over over over medicated, 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.640 and that is my opinion as to how she died. 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.640 She just had way too many drugs in her system. 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:22.480 And I personally don't believe that she intended to kill 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.200 herself based upon the way the whole scene was set up. 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.520 I think once now, listen, this is why I think 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:32.320 a shady like if that if the housekeeper called the 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.600 psychiatrist first and they were on the phone and talking 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.920 for over an hour before they called police, I actually 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:43.240 think it's possible that the psychiatrist had like a meltdown 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:45.400 because she was dead, and then all of a sudden 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.320 was like, oh my God, like this is going to 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.760 be on me. And then somehow the housekeeper was told 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.120 to like make it seem like she looked like she 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:57.880 killed herself. Honestly, I believe that. Now anybody could argue 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.000 with me and say whatever, but that's what I think 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.320 think that's really what I think happened based upon everything 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.280 that I've read so far about it. So I guess, 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:12.640 getting back to the book that you read, what happened 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:16.520 with that, Like after he had done this autopsy on Marilyn, 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.680 how was he held in the media and how what 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:22.400 did people think of him after that? 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.840 Well, in the book. It seems like, you know, he 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:29.679 was getting pretty good recognition for the work he did 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:32.800 in the autopsy, except for the botch toxicology like you 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.080 were talking about, because even though he was adamant that 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.480 he had ordered those tests on all of her organs 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.160 and you know, the higher ups just didn't complete them, 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.800 it ultimately reflected poorly on him, which also brings back 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.800 the point earlier where you were saying, like, why wouldn't 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.280 the chief coroner do it? He had to have predicted 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.600 in some capacity this was going to be controversial. 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.520 Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I really to just wrap 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.320 up Marilyn Monroe. I really believe that if if she 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.760 had died in two tenty twenty five, the manner of 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:08.200 death certainly wouldn't have been ruled suicide, and honestly, her 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.480 treating physicians would possibly be facing charges and the manner 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.840 death might be rolled homicide, similar to what happened with 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:19.000 Michael Jackson, Because I mean, and listen, like, we could 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:22.720 go over so many different celebrity deaths that don't involve 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.800 Nogochi that are the same exact situation where the treating 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.400 physicians are responsible for these people's deaths. 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:33.800 I mean, if you want to think at about the 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.240 sixties too, sorry to cut you off. I just like, 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.160 I think this part of pop culture when we talk 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.760 about the sixties that we were always focusing on is 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.000 like the casual pill popping element. And I think that 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:49.240 maybe you're suggesting this too, that like the doctors are 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.160 just not being held responsible for this because it was 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.840 just so common to go and get pills, and you know, 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:56.920 it's this like joke and all these shows we watched, 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.680 like Madmen and Palm Royale and everything, that these women 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.080 are just so casually popping pills, and that seemed like 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:06.559 the culture she was participating in too, So it doesn't 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:08.880 seem like anybody being held responsible. 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:12.360 Yeah, and I can't imagine, Like I just think she 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.360 had a level of fame that was that was unlike 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:19.960 any other and attention, and it's just if you're walking 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:25.320 into a situation like that already mentally unstable, it's just terrible. 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.760 And then you know you've heard this from even from 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.760 Dorothy with Wizard of Oz and everything, how she had 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.200 to take pills to lose weight, and there was just 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.520 a lot of pressure on You need to be alert, 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:38.120 you need to be peppy, but then you need to 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:39.560 go home and you need to go to sleep, and 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:41.880 you need to take these pills. You know, you're taking 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.520 essentially speed to stay thin, and then they want you 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:46.400 to go to sleep and come to work the next day. 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:48.680 And it's just like pills to stay awake, pills to 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:50.840 go to sleep, pills for your anxiety, this, that, and 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:54.520 the other. And they didn't have They were saying that 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:58.480 there's a possibility that she had bipolar disease or something 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.119 like that, and they didn't really have any great drugs 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.640 back then that they have now to be able to 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.880 treat those types of things. And when you give patients, 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.400 especially who should be on antipsychotics, you give them other 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.880 kinds of medications that could just exacerbate their symptoms. So 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:16.440 they were just she would come up with one thing 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.840 and they'd mask it with another. And when you look 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.120 at the levels of medication that were not only in 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.480 her body that but were prescribed to her at the 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.120 same time, how could a regular person ever know that 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:28.080 they were supposed to take that much or not. Like 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:33.120 it's just it's a sad situation. But I think what 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.560 we could learn about the autopsy is like and we 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.440 were just talking about this with the Gene Hackman autopsy, 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.800 for example, and when I was saying a couple episodes back, 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.040 how I thought that they did such a thorough job 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:48.800 because you don't want anyone like me or even just 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.120 anybody going in there and picking apart your report and 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.200 being like, did you check this? What about this? What 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.240 about this? Because it leaves holes open and then it 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.479 makes people question your results. 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.320 Well, I thought this was interesting too, when you were 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.880 talking about on last week's episode about Jim Morrison and 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.480 how they didn't do toxicology or anything on him, because 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.200 we clearly had it in nineteen sixty two when her 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:16.920 death occurred, So why wasn't this done almost ten years later? Exactly? 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.920 So okay, So another which and there's a lot of 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.680 like intermingling with all of these celebrities, which is also 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:32.960 super unusual. So one of the next high profile celebrity 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:37.800 deaths he did was on Bobby Kennedy, right, And and 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:42.800 that one I think because he got heat from the 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:47.400 Marilyn Monroe autopsy not being the best thing. Ever, when 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:50.160 he did the body Bobby Kennedy one, I think he 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:54.360 learned his lesson a little bit from the Marilyn Monroe autopsy, 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:58.640 and he did a thorough six hour autopsy on him, 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.800 which many fragns it people have said has was like 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:03.040 a perfect autopsy. 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.840 Right, Wait, so how like how long would a normal 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:08.040 autopsy because I don't know that in my mind it 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:12.000 would take all day. So why is six hours so long? 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.119 It? Six hours, in my opinion, is a very long 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:20.119 time for an autopsy. They could be very very fast. 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.120 They could be as as fast as an hour if 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:25.840 you could figure out how the person died. But when 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.359 if you want to take the organs out and you 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.560 really want to go through and document every single inch 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:33.960 of their body from their head to their toe and 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.679 look at every organ and document it and photograph it 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.920 and measure it, it could take a long time. And 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.800 six and a half hours is like if we did 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.200 autopsies at children's hospital, they would take that long because 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:52.560 you're you're looking at a terrible situation for parents. Plus 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.640 you're looking to see if they have any underlying congenital 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.000 issues that may affect if the parents want to have 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:00.520 another baby, and things like that. You have to be 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:05.440 way more meticulous with a child autopsy. But six and 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:07.719 a half hours for an adult is a lot. So 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.159 when I hear that, I'm like, Okay, this guy was 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.040 not messing around when he did this autopsy. He was 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.240 just like, they're not going to find anything wrong with this, 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:21.120 And it seems like it seems like they didn't. Right 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:23.680 like they Most people thought that he did a really 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.480 good job with this. Yeah, And I also in the 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.679 book it kind of gets into how he started the 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.160 autopsy at the feet, and a lot of people thought 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.120 this was unusual. So I wanted your perspective on this. 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.240 I well, when you're talking about doing the autopsy, it's 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:43.119 especially with defeat, you would there would be rare cases 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.160 where you would actually ever cut a person open down there. 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.520 So you're talking about the external exam starting, and I 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:52.480 don't have a problem with that if that was just 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.840 what he wanted to do, to go up versus go down, 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.639 because there's different things you're looking for on the external exam. 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.840 Number one is is this person who they who they're 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.320 supposed to be. Does it look like their age, does 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.919 it match their driver's license, does you know all of 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.960 that kind of stuff. Then you're looking for general changes 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.399 associated with death, so you would think about, uh, like 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.800 rigor mortis and libra mortis and and different things like that, 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.720 any medical kind of intervention that they might have looked 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.560 like they had our medical condition that you know, are 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:29.560 they jaundice or things like that that might clue you 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:31.640 into why they died. And then you're going to look 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.280 for signs of any kind of trauma that might be 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:39.639 associated with either a medical intervention or if somebody hurt it, 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.480 hurt them or hurt themselves. So, especially when you're talking 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:48.320 about an autopsy of someone of Bobby Kennedy's stature and 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:53.600 then our status, and also you just don't want to 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:56.760 You definitely don't want to screw anything up with that 0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:59.360 because not only that it was a homicide, it took 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.480 place on it was live on TV, right, they have 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:06.879 video of it. There's going to be someone that's going 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:08.840 to get convicted of this. If they get caught, they 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.080 want to make sure that they're doing a thorough job. 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:18.080 So from his autopsy, he determined, which is really interesting, 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.399 that the fatal shot was to the back of Bobby 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:25.280 Kennedy's head behind his right ear, and they he said 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.960 that it was no more than seventy five millimeters away, 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:33.000 which is pretty close to have the gun to the head. Now, 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:37.359 the problem is is that none of the witnesses reported 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:41.159 seeing the guy Saransern, who was actually convicted of this 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:45.360 crime that close to his head. And there's multiple theories, 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.240 and most people would agree at this point that they 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:50.920 believed that there were two different gunmen just because there 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:54.280 were way too many bullets found at this scene that 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:59.560 wouldn't even fit in one gun. So I'm curious when 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:01.879 those were get released of any more of that. But 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.959 there is a person in prison serving time for this 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:09.679 who definitely did shoot him, but they believe they believe 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.840 conspiracy theorists. I guess I would say believe that he 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.720 was not the person that actually fired the fatal shot 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:23.280 that killed him. And it's just really interesting because Nagoshi 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:28.800 also didn't really say He pointed out himself in his 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.399 memoir that he never officially ruled that he thought that 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:34.040 Saram was the fatal shot. 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:36.960 Yeah, he definitely had doubts about that based on the 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:38.280 evidence he was reviewing. 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:41.640 Yeah, And one other interesting thing I want to bring 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:46.000 out about Bobby Kennedy's autopsy is that he was visiting California. 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:51.280 He was not from California, and the autopsy automatically because 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:55.000 of jurisdiction, goes to that medical examiner's office. But Bobby 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.360 Kennedy's family wanted him to get flown back to Washington, 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:01.120 d C. To have his autopsy done, which I think 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:06.320 is interesting because with JFK a similar thing happened where 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:09.399 he was supposed to get his autopsy done in Dallas 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:11.840 because that was the jurisdiction of where he died, and 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:14.560 they insisted on flying him back to Washington, D C. 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:19.000 And that's when he had that botched autopsy done, which 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:23.280 is again leaving all of these conspiracy theories wide open. 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:26.600 So it's interesting to me that his family would want 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.560 to do that again, almost to not have the person 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.240 that was supposed to be doing it. But ultimately, when 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:35.560 a medical examiner has jurisdiction over a body, they could 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:38.280 really just be like no, like we're the law, we're 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:40.800 in charge, and we're doing it. So they were very 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.320 stern about it, and that's how negoti ended up doing 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:46.400 Bobby Kennedy's autopsy. 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.440 Well, why would you even risk moving the body when 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:51.439 it's such a high profile person. 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:54.680 Well, I mean the moving of the body is I mean, 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:57.640 the moving of the body is not necessarily the problem. 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:01.639 It's just like, why why would you have it done 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:05.720 somewhere else by someone that's not listen. I could say 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:10.400 this with every single situation of again, this VIP treatment. 0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:14.159