Speaker 1: Mother Knows Dad starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk Hi. Everyone.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Mother Knows Death. One of the advantages to
Speaker 1: this job and having this position on this podcast is
Speaker 1: that we get advanced copies of people's books. And we
Speaker 1: recently received a copy of a book by an author
Speaker 1: named doctor Ann Sue Chen who came out with well,
Speaker 1: she didn't come out with it yet. It's coming out
Speaker 1: on when's it coming out?
Speaker 2: April twenty second.
Speaker 1: April twenty second, So it's in the works, but we
Speaker 1: had a copy of it. We're able to read it,
Speaker 1: and it is titled La Coroner, Thomas Negucci and Death
Speaker 1: in Hollywood. And you guys will love this because we
Speaker 1: think the juiciest subjects on this show are the celebrity deaths,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of them in this book.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I actually read this book in about two days,
Speaker 2: and I thought it was a pretty easy read and
Speaker 2: definitely kept my attention the entire time. Just briefly, it
Speaker 2: goes over the career of doctor Thomas Negucci, who is
Speaker 2: the chief coroner in La County. Between nineteen sixty seven
Speaker 2: and nineteen eighty two. He had a brief suspension in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, which we'll talk about a little bit
Speaker 2: in this episode and goes into more detail in the book.
Speaker 2: But crazy enough, he is still alive at ninety years
Speaker 2: old and he inspired the TV show Quincy's That's really cool. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So we're going to start off talking about the deaths
Speaker 2: of Marilyn Monroe and getting another one such as Bobby Kennedy,
Speaker 2: Sharon Tate, and Natalie Wood.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about this for a second, because I just
Speaker 1: think by by proxy, like you, if you work in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles and you're either a cop, a firefighter, an
Speaker 1: EMS person, or you're a coroner, you're going to see
Speaker 1: the most celebrities of any other offices in the entire country,
Speaker 1: just because most of the celebrities are either working in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles or living in Los Angeles. And what happens is,
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to coroners and where your autopsy
Speaker 1: is done. If you die, it's done by jurisdiction. So
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe, she had died in Los Angeles and the
Speaker 1: jurisdiction is the Los Angeles Coroner's Office, So there are
Speaker 1: going to be the ones that do the autopsy. And
Speaker 1: that's almost across the country. Is where you die is
Speaker 1: where you have the autopsy. It doesn't necessarily matter where
Speaker 1: you're from, it's where you die. So even actors that
Speaker 1: are visiting Hollywood that die would still get the autopsy
Speaker 1: done at the LA Coroner's office, which is why we
Speaker 1: hear that they're involved in so many celebrity deaths. So
Speaker 1: let's start off first by talking about Marilyn Monroe. So
Speaker 1: we did a celebrity death dissection in the gross room
Speaker 1: probably five years ago. She was one of the first
Speaker 1: ones I've ever did in the groceryroom. So Nogucci, he's
Speaker 1: a what was he like a a junior pathologist at
Speaker 1: the time. He was just newly working there at the
Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's office there in Los Angeles, and he went
Speaker 1: to work as usual that Monday, it was August fifth,
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, and on his desk he found a
Speaker 1: message from the Chief Medical Examiner. So the chief medical
Speaker 1: Examiner is kind of the boss that overlooks all of
Speaker 1: the other medical examiners underneath of them, and it said,
Speaker 1: quote doctor Kurfey wants doctor Nagochi to do the autopsy
Speaker 1: on Marilyn Monroe, which I kind of think is kind
Speaker 1: of interesting that the chief medical examiner would not be
Speaker 1: the one that was like, I'm putting my name on
Speaker 1: this because this is going to be a big frickin' deal.
Speaker 2: Well, do you think that's maybe why he didn't, because
Speaker 2: he knew this was going to be such a problem
Speaker 2: and he didn't want to be associated with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure, I think so. There's two different things
Speaker 1: that I could think of. It's either that or maybe
Speaker 1: Nogucci at that time had such a good reputation for
Speaker 1: being meticulous and being able to determine cause of death
Speaker 1: that maybe he felt he felt that he would be
Speaker 1: the best to do it. Although I'm sure I'm sure
Speaker 1: it's the former. Like you understand, I just think it's
Speaker 1: a little unusual. Most high profile cases, the chief will
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, I'll be the one that steps in
Speaker 1: on this. So Marilyn was so anybody that listens to
Speaker 1: the show probably knows the deal, and we don't have
Speaker 1: to get super into all of the details, but there
Speaker 1: were some suspicious findings immediately with just how the whole
Speaker 1: thing went down. She was found dead, She was naked,
Speaker 1: which is unusual, She was in a weird unnatural position
Speaker 1: with her right hand gripping the telephone receiver as if
Speaker 1: somebody was intentionally trying to set her up to look
Speaker 1: that way. And there were bottles containing sleeping pills on
Speaker 1: the bedside, so that was unusual. And then there was
Speaker 1: also do you remember there was like some unusual things
Speaker 1: with the way the housekeeper acted to Apparently the housekeeper
Speaker 1: had called her psychiatrist before calling police, and like a
Speaker 1: whole entire hour before calling police. And then when the
Speaker 1: police showed up, the housekeeper, who was also considered to
Speaker 1: be Marilyn Monroe's friend, had had a load of wash running,
Speaker 1: which is unusual. Like if you're a housekeeper living with
Speaker 1: a person taking care of them, in friends with a person,
Speaker 1: why on earth would you think about doing a load
Speaker 1: of wash while this person's laying dead and the police
Speaker 1: are there investigating their death. It's just bizarre.
Speaker 2: I could she have thrown it in before she found
Speaker 2: her No.
Speaker 1: I think that they determined that whatever time of the
Speaker 1: cycle it was, that it was done after they determined
Speaker 1: that she had died. So there was just like a
Speaker 1: little bit of weirdness around there. So I mean, and
Speaker 1: it's Marilyn Monroe and and and there's a million things.
Speaker 1: So he gets the body to the medical examiner's office
Speaker 1: and he does the autopsy, and he said that nothing
Speaker 1: really looked abnormal about her organs. Whenever you find someone dead.
Speaker 2: Who's she was, how old was she?
Speaker 1: She was young?
Speaker 2: She was young.
Speaker 1: She was young. Yeah, look that up exactly, because she
Speaker 1: was either in her late twenties or early thirties, but
Speaker 1: she was very young. You find somebody dead that has
Speaker 1: now Marilyn Monroe has a history of previous suicide attempts,
Speaker 1: a history of taking these medications. So whenever you see that,
Speaker 1: you see the pills at the bedside, you're thinking, okay,
Speaker 1: it's possible that she did take her own life. So
Speaker 1: he does the autopsy, and of course he's thinking as
Speaker 1: well when he does it. But then when he gets
Speaker 1: to her stomach, he finds nothing in her stomach, which
Speaker 1: means that she didn't swallow a whole bunch of pills
Speaker 1: and then die. That didn't happen because he didn't find
Speaker 1: any undigested pills in her upper gi track like that.
Speaker 1: And that's something that you would see when somebody was
Speaker 1: having an act of desperation and just taking a lot
Speaker 1: of pills at one time, so he thought that that
Speaker 1: was a little weird and did question it. But he
Speaker 1: sent all of this stuff to get tested for toxicology,
Speaker 1: which would include samples of her liver, blood and things
Speaker 1: like that, and the toxicology came back and there was
Speaker 1: this head toxicologist and he had said that the levels
Speaker 1: of pentobarbital and chlorohydrate were fatal and they decided based
Speaker 1: on that that she died of a drug overdose and
Speaker 1: her manner of death was suicide. Now, the thing that
Speaker 1: doctor Nagochi had brought up in the future was that
Speaker 1: he was, like we said, he was a junior pathologist.
Speaker 1: He didn't have any experience or say in much because
Speaker 1: he didn't want to question this chief toxicologist that had
Speaker 1: all this experience over him. But he was kind of
Speaker 1: thinking it was a little weird that they didn't run
Speaker 1: the toxicology on the actual stomach contents as well as
Speaker 1: other organs that he had asked them to do, and
Speaker 1: they kind of blew them off to do like a
Speaker 1: more thorough autopsy just to cross off any concern that
Speaker 1: there might be. So that was one of the things
Speaker 1: that started being concerning to people as far as them
Speaker 1: just automatically saying that she died of suicide. And sometimes
Speaker 1: when you determine, because when anybody overdoses on any kind
Speaker 1: of drugs, whether it's legal drugs or prescription drugs, you
Speaker 1: always have to take into consideration some of the circumstances
Speaker 1: that will determine if the manner of death was an accident,
Speaker 1: or if the manner of death was suicide, or if
Speaker 1: the manner of death was homicide, which we'll get into
Speaker 1: a minute with that because that sounds a little weird,
Speaker 1: but with suicide you will check. So she did have
Speaker 1: a history of previous suicide attempts, which is very strong,
Speaker 1: but there was no suicide note and there were no
Speaker 1: undigestive pills in her stomach, So that has to make
Speaker 1: you think like, Okay, this didn't seem like an acute
Speaker 1: thing that she that she killed herself, so let's look
Speaker 1: at other things that could be done. So the next
Speaker 1: thing you're going to look at is okay, okay, well
Speaker 1: was this an accident? Did she maybe take too many
Speaker 1: of these medications together by accident? And now those questions
Speaker 1: are really out the window because they didn't check the
Speaker 1: stomach contents, so they don't even know if the pills
Speaker 1: were digested or if those things were in her system
Speaker 1: for a little bit longer. And the reason that I
Speaker 1: bring up homicide in this case is because, in my
Speaker 1: personal opinion, so we do know that there's been all
Speaker 1: of these theories going on for the past however many
Speaker 1: years that Marilyn was killed by the Kennedys, that there
Speaker 1: was something associated with the Kennedys.
Speaker 2: Well, you really can't ignore the connection to them, and they're,
Speaker 2: you know, infamous curse that everybody no.
Speaker 1: I yeah, and I'm not. But but based upon what
Speaker 1: I see, I honestly would say that her manner of
Speaker 1: death should be homicide, but not because of the Kennedy's involvement,
Speaker 1: but because of It's kind of like a Michael Jackson
Speaker 1: case in which Marilyn Monroe had inappropriate relationships with her
Speaker 1: doctors getting VIP treatment medications she shouldn't be on. She
Speaker 1: had a strong family history of psychological disease, personal family
Speaker 1: history of psychological disease, and then it was like she
Speaker 1: had a personal physician and a psychiatrist that were not
Speaker 1: in great communication with each other about what medications they
Speaker 1: were giving her, and she was over over over medicated,
Speaker 1: and that is my opinion as to how she died.
Speaker 1: She just had way too many drugs in her system.
Speaker 1: And I personally don't believe that she intended to kill
Speaker 1: herself based upon the way the whole scene was set up.
Speaker 1: I think once now, listen, this is why I think
Speaker 1: a shady like if that if the housekeeper called the
Speaker 1: psychiatrist first and they were on the phone and talking
Speaker 1: for over an hour before they called police, I actually
Speaker 1: think it's possible that the psychiatrist had like a meltdown
Speaker 1: because she was dead, and then all of a sudden
Speaker 1: was like, oh my God, like this is going to
Speaker 1: be on me. And then somehow the housekeeper was told
Speaker 1: to like make it seem like she looked like she
Speaker 1: killed herself. Honestly, I believe that. Now anybody could argue
Speaker 1: with me and say whatever, but that's what I think
Speaker 1: think that's really what I think happened based upon everything
Speaker 1: that I've read so far about it. So I guess,
Speaker 1: getting back to the book that you read, what happened
Speaker 1: with that, Like after he had done this autopsy on Marilyn,
Speaker 1: how was he held in the media and how what
Speaker 1: did people think of him after that?
Speaker 2: Well, in the book. It seems like, you know, he
Speaker 2: was getting pretty good recognition for the work he did
Speaker 2: in the autopsy, except for the botch toxicology like you
Speaker 2: were talking about, because even though he was adamant that
Speaker 2: he had ordered those tests on all of her organs
Speaker 2: and you know, the higher ups just didn't complete them,
Speaker 2: it ultimately reflected poorly on him, which also brings back
Speaker 2: the point earlier where you were saying, like, why wouldn't
Speaker 2: the chief coroner do it? He had to have predicted
Speaker 2: in some capacity this was going to be controversial.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I really to just wrap
Speaker 1: up Marilyn Monroe. I really believe that if if she
Speaker 1: had died in two tenty twenty five, the manner of
Speaker 1: death certainly wouldn't have been ruled suicide, and honestly, her
Speaker 1: treating physicians would possibly be facing charges and the manner
Speaker 1: death might be rolled homicide, similar to what happened with
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson, Because I mean, and listen, like, we could
Speaker 1: go over so many different celebrity deaths that don't involve
Speaker 1: Nogochi that are the same exact situation where the treating
Speaker 1: physicians are responsible for these people's deaths.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you want to think at about the
Speaker 2: sixties too, sorry to cut you off. I just like,
Speaker 2: I think this part of pop culture when we talk
Speaker 2: about the sixties that we were always focusing on is
Speaker 2: like the casual pill popping element. And I think that
Speaker 2: maybe you're suggesting this too, that like the doctors are
Speaker 2: just not being held responsible for this because it was
Speaker 2: just so common to go and get pills, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's this like joke and all these shows we watched,
Speaker 2: like Madmen and Palm Royale and everything, that these women
Speaker 2: are just so casually popping pills, and that seemed like
Speaker 2: the culture she was participating in too, So it doesn't
Speaker 2: seem like anybody being held responsible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I can't imagine, Like I just think she
Speaker 1: had a level of fame that was that was unlike
Speaker 1: any other and attention, and it's just if you're walking
Speaker 1: into a situation like that already mentally unstable, it's just terrible.
Speaker 1: And then you know you've heard this from even from
Speaker 1: Dorothy with Wizard of Oz and everything, how she had
Speaker 1: to take pills to lose weight, and there was just
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on You need to be alert,
Speaker 1: you need to be peppy, but then you need to
Speaker 1: go home and you need to go to sleep, and
Speaker 1: you need to take these pills. You know, you're taking
Speaker 1: essentially speed to stay thin, and then they want you
Speaker 1: to go to sleep and come to work the next day.
Speaker 1: And it's just like pills to stay awake, pills to
Speaker 1: go to sleep, pills for your anxiety, this, that, and
Speaker 1: the other. And they didn't have They were saying that
Speaker 1: there's a possibility that she had bipolar disease or something
Speaker 1: like that, and they didn't really have any great drugs
Speaker 1: back then that they have now to be able to
Speaker 1: treat those types of things. And when you give patients,
Speaker 1: especially who should be on antipsychotics, you give them other
Speaker 1: kinds of medications that could just exacerbate their symptoms. So
Speaker 1: they were just she would come up with one thing
Speaker 1: and they'd mask it with another. And when you look
Speaker 1: at the levels of medication that were not only in
Speaker 1: her body that but were prescribed to her at the
Speaker 1: same time, how could a regular person ever know that
Speaker 1: they were supposed to take that much or not. Like
Speaker 1: it's just it's a sad situation. But I think what
Speaker 1: we could learn about the autopsy is like and we
Speaker 1: were just talking about this with the Gene Hackman autopsy,
Speaker 1: for example, and when I was saying a couple episodes back,
Speaker 1: how I thought that they did such a thorough job
Speaker 1: because you don't want anyone like me or even just
Speaker 1: anybody going in there and picking apart your report and
Speaker 1: being like, did you check this? What about this? What
Speaker 1: about this? Because it leaves holes open and then it
Speaker 1: makes people question your results.
Speaker 2: Well, I thought this was interesting too, when you were
Speaker 2: talking about on last week's episode about Jim Morrison and
Speaker 2: how they didn't do toxicology or anything on him, because
Speaker 2: we clearly had it in nineteen sixty two when her
Speaker 2: death occurred, So why wasn't this done almost ten years later? Exactly?
Speaker 1: So okay, So another which and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: like intermingling with all of these celebrities, which is also
Speaker 1: super unusual. So one of the next high profile celebrity
Speaker 1: deaths he did was on Bobby Kennedy, right, And and
Speaker 1: that one I think because he got heat from the
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe autopsy not being the best thing. Ever, when
Speaker 1: he did the body Bobby Kennedy one, I think he
Speaker 1: learned his lesson a little bit from the Marilyn Monroe autopsy,
Speaker 1: and he did a thorough six hour autopsy on him,
Speaker 1: which many fragns it people have said has was like
Speaker 1: a perfect autopsy.
Speaker 2: Right, Wait, so how like how long would a normal
Speaker 2: autopsy because I don't know that in my mind it
Speaker 2: would take all day. So why is six hours so long?
Speaker 1: It? Six hours, in my opinion, is a very long
Speaker 1: time for an autopsy. They could be very very fast.
Speaker 1: They could be as as fast as an hour if
Speaker 1: you could figure out how the person died. But when
Speaker 1: if you want to take the organs out and you
Speaker 1: really want to go through and document every single inch
Speaker 1: of their body from their head to their toe and
Speaker 1: look at every organ and document it and photograph it
Speaker 1: and measure it, it could take a long time. And
Speaker 1: six and a half hours is like if we did
Speaker 1: autopsies at children's hospital, they would take that long because
Speaker 1: you're you're looking at a terrible situation for parents. Plus
Speaker 1: you're looking to see if they have any underlying congenital
Speaker 1: issues that may affect if the parents want to have
Speaker 1: another baby, and things like that. You have to be
Speaker 1: way more meticulous with a child autopsy. But six and
Speaker 1: a half hours for an adult is a lot. So
Speaker 1: when I hear that, I'm like, Okay, this guy was
Speaker 1: not messing around when he did this autopsy. He was
Speaker 1: just like, they're not going to find anything wrong with this,
Speaker 1: And it seems like it seems like they didn't. Right
Speaker 1: like they Most people thought that he did a really
Speaker 1: good job with this. Yeah, And I also in the
Speaker 1: book it kind of gets into how he started the
Speaker 1: autopsy at the feet, and a lot of people thought
Speaker 1: this was unusual. So I wanted your perspective on this.
Speaker 1: I well, when you're talking about doing the autopsy, it's
Speaker 1: especially with defeat, you would there would be rare cases
Speaker 1: where you would actually ever cut a person open down there.
Speaker 1: So you're talking about the external exam starting, and I
Speaker 1: don't have a problem with that if that was just
Speaker 1: what he wanted to do, to go up versus go down,
Speaker 1: because there's different things you're looking for on the external exam.
Speaker 1: Number one is is this person who they who they're
Speaker 1: supposed to be. Does it look like their age, does
Speaker 1: it match their driver's license, does you know all of
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Then you're looking for general changes
Speaker 1: associated with death, so you would think about, uh, like
Speaker 1: rigor mortis and libra mortis and and different things like that,
Speaker 1: any medical kind of intervention that they might have looked
Speaker 1: like they had our medical condition that you know, are
Speaker 1: they jaundice or things like that that might clue you
Speaker 1: into why they died. And then you're going to look
Speaker 1: for signs of any kind of trauma that might be
Speaker 1: associated with either a medical intervention or if somebody hurt it,
Speaker 1: hurt them or hurt themselves. So, especially when you're talking
Speaker 1: about an autopsy of someone of Bobby Kennedy's stature and
Speaker 1: then our status, and also you just don't want to
Speaker 1: You definitely don't want to screw anything up with that
Speaker 1: because not only that it was a homicide, it took
Speaker 1: place on it was live on TV, right, they have
Speaker 1: video of it. There's going to be someone that's going
Speaker 1: to get convicted of this. If they get caught, they
Speaker 1: want to make sure that they're doing a thorough job.
Speaker 1: So from his autopsy, he determined, which is really interesting,
Speaker 1: that the fatal shot was to the back of Bobby
Speaker 1: Kennedy's head behind his right ear, and they he said
Speaker 1: that it was no more than seventy five millimeters away,
Speaker 1: which is pretty close to have the gun to the head. Now,
Speaker 1: the problem is is that none of the witnesses reported
Speaker 1: seeing the guy Saransern, who was actually convicted of this
Speaker 1: crime that close to his head. And there's multiple theories,
Speaker 1: and most people would agree at this point that they
Speaker 1: believed that there were two different gunmen just because there
Speaker 1: were way too many bullets found at this scene that
Speaker 1: wouldn't even fit in one gun. So I'm curious when
Speaker 1: those were get released of any more of that. But
Speaker 1: there is a person in prison serving time for this
Speaker 1: who definitely did shoot him, but they believe they believe
Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists. I guess I would say believe that he
Speaker 1: was not the person that actually fired the fatal shot
Speaker 1: that killed him. And it's just really interesting because Nagoshi
Speaker 1: also didn't really say He pointed out himself in his
Speaker 1: memoir that he never officially ruled that he thought that
Speaker 1: Saram was the fatal shot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he definitely had doubts about that based on the
Speaker 2: evidence he was reviewing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And one other interesting thing I want to bring
Speaker 1: out about Bobby Kennedy's autopsy is that he was visiting California.
Speaker 1: He was not from California, and the autopsy automatically because
Speaker 1: of jurisdiction, goes to that medical examiner's office. But Bobby
Speaker 1: Kennedy's family wanted him to get flown back to Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. To have his autopsy done, which I think
Speaker 1: is interesting because with JFK a similar thing happened where
Speaker 1: he was supposed to get his autopsy done in Dallas
Speaker 1: because that was the jurisdiction of where he died, and
Speaker 1: they insisted on flying him back to Washington, D C.
Speaker 1: And that's when he had that botched autopsy done, which
Speaker 1: is again leaving all of these conspiracy theories wide open.
Speaker 1: So it's interesting to me that his family would want
Speaker 1: to do that again, almost to not have the person
Speaker 1: that was supposed to be doing it. But ultimately, when
Speaker 1: a medical examiner has jurisdiction over a body, they could
Speaker 1: really just be like no, like we're the law, we're
Speaker 1: in charge, and we're doing it. So they were very
Speaker 1: stern about it, and that's how negoti ended up doing
Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy's autopsy.
Speaker 2: Well, why would you even risk moving the body when
Speaker 2: it's such a high profile person.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean the moving of the body is I mean,
Speaker 1: the moving of the body is not necessarily the problem.
Speaker 1: It's just like, why why would you have it done
Speaker 1: somewhere else by someone that's not listen. I could say
Speaker 1: this with every single situation of again, this VIP treatment.
Speaker 1: When you don't follow the normal procedure, whether you're in
Speaker 1: the hospital and you're taking care of patients that are
Speaker 1: getting surgery or if you're doing autopsies, if you're not
Speaker 1: doing what you would do for every other regular person,
Speaker 1: that's when shit gets screwed up, and it's just like
Speaker 1: the best thing ever is to just let it go
Speaker 1: how it would go for any regular person when it
Speaker 1: comes to medicine and death investigation. That's my personal opinion.
Speaker 1: And I could say that because I've done hundreds of
Speaker 1: these celebrity death dissections and high profile death dissections, and
Speaker 1: you could see that all of the times that there's
Speaker 1: all these questions and all of these botched autopsies have
Speaker 1: to do with people not following protocol.
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Speaker 1: the side of the road and showing what the autopsy
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Speaker 1: So now he's negoti is like a well known figure
Speaker 1: at this point that's been on TV a lot talking
Speaker 1: about these higher profile celebrity deaths that he's done autopsies on.
Speaker 1: So now people are starting to know who this guy
Speaker 1: is and what happened in his personal life or his
Speaker 1: work life. So because he was constantly in the press,
Speaker 1: he was also trying to take this opportunity to let
Speaker 1: everybody know how underfunded their department was and how they
Speaker 1: just didn't have enough resources, which really pissed his bosses off.
Speaker 1: So this became this whole problem where after that, you know,
Speaker 1: he was facing some racism with being Japanese in a
Speaker 1: post World War two era, and then mixed with him
Speaker 1: complaining about the department publicly and not dealing with it privately.
Speaker 1: They were kind of just like, we're over you. So
Speaker 1: they went to him and they were like, listen, you're
Speaker 1: gonna resign because we have evidence which came out.
Speaker 2: Later to be false. They were trying to say that
Speaker 2: they had evidence that he was on amphetamines, and he
Speaker 2: was acting erratic during RFK and he was botching parts
Speaker 2: of the autopsy. So ultimately he didn't think he had
Speaker 2: a chance at winning, and he did sign the resignation papers.
Speaker 2: But then after a conversation with his wife and some
Speaker 2: supporters of him, he's like, why am I going to resign?
Speaker 2: I haven't done anything wrong. And so there was these
Speaker 2: hearings that were constantly in the press, and this really
Speaker 2: launched him into his own celebrity because these hearings were
Speaker 2: a huge deal in the news.
Speaker 1: So what's interesting about these hearings is that he hired
Speaker 1: his defense lawyer. His name was Godfrey Isaac, and that
Speaker 1: lawyer later became an attorney for Sarron Sarn the one
Speaker 1: who was convicted of killing Robert Kennedy. He became his
Speaker 1: attorney after he was convicted. Isn't that kind of interesting
Speaker 1: and weird? Yet, I'm telling you, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: interconnections with all of these cases.
Speaker 2: How was it not like a conflict of interest?
Speaker 1: I really I don't understand. So he got accused of
Speaker 1: all this stuff, and what happened after those hearings?
Speaker 2: So after the hearings, I mean, they totally proved that
Speaker 2: there was racism, and they had been making things up,
Speaker 2: and the board had been trying to work to turn
Speaker 2: his coworkers against him, and he ultimately got reinstated in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine and got his job back because he
Speaker 2: proved he did nothing wrong and it was like all bullshit.
Speaker 1: Basically after he was he was essentially they tried to
Speaker 1: fire him or make him quit, and then he was reinstated.
Speaker 1: Yet another high profile death happens, which is Sharon Tate.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So an interesting point that the book brought up
Speaker 2: is that they were saying that he got called to
Speaker 2: the scene of Sharon Tate's murders, which of course the
Speaker 2: press knows when the chief coroner shows up, It's like
Speaker 2: a really big deal. So I of course had a
Speaker 2: question for you, is that a really big deal because
Speaker 2: I assume that they're busy and they don't have time
Speaker 2: to go to every single scene in their district. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they definitely don't, and they only go to ones that
Speaker 2: are a higher profile. So for example, in Philadelphia, I
Speaker 2: recall during the time that I was involved there there
Speaker 2: was you know, that's why they have death investigators like
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan and stuff go on the scene, take pictures,
Speaker 2: do the interviews and everything like that. But in Philadelphia
Speaker 2: there was a case where there was an Amtrak derailment,
Speaker 2: you remember that, So that would be a case where
Speaker 2: the chief Medical Examiner shows up to the scene because
Speaker 2: it's super high profile, it's on the news every people died,
Speaker 2: they wanted you know what I mean, like stuff like that.
Speaker 2: They wouldn't just go to to any scene. Obviously, the
Speaker 2: Sharon Tate thing was outrageous, so that's why the chief
Speaker 2: medical Examiner showed up because that was going to be
Speaker 2: a huge deal. Yeah, And I think for me, so
Speaker 2: I'm always trying to pinpoint when this like huge true
Speaker 2: crime fascination started, right, we could always argue it could
Speaker 2: be back to Sherlock Holmes and everything, But I'm thinking
Speaker 2: of the modern celebrity death that we know today, and
Speaker 2: I always personally point that to the OJ trials. But
Speaker 2: I think the book makes a really good argument that
Speaker 2: the Manson murders really changed the culture of celebrity death
Speaker 2: with entertainment and news because it was this huge deal.
Speaker 2: She was this huge star married to Roman Polancy, this
Speaker 2: enormous director that had these big movies out at the time.
Speaker 2: And then you have this guy who after this crime
Speaker 2: gets deemed the coroner to the stars come out and
Speaker 2: he's just constantly in the press because of how high
Speaker 2: profile the cases are. Then you find out it's like
Speaker 2: this ritualistic cult behind the whole thing. I mean, this
Speaker 2: must have been huge at the time.
Speaker 1: This needs to talk to mo mom about this.
Speaker 2: She doesn't. I was just about to say that because
Speaker 2: when I was like doing a lot of research on
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy a couple of years ago, for example, I
Speaker 2: was like, what was it like? She because you're I
Speaker 2: can remember because.
Speaker 1: You're thinking about it from a person living in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five's perspective. They didn't have the internet, they only
Speaker 1: had the news on once a day. I'm not even
Speaker 1: sure they had the local news at that time. Like,
Speaker 1: it just was a different They probably barely knew that
Speaker 1: a lot of this was going on. They might have
Speaker 1: heard of it, but there wasn't like the twenty four
Speaker 1: hour news cycle alerts coming across your phone. It just
Speaker 1: was a different time. What year did Charantate happen?
Speaker 2: Nineteen sixty nine?
Speaker 1: Okay, so in nineteen sixty nine, she was like not
Speaker 1: even twenty years old. Yet you have to think about
Speaker 1: that too, Like she was not she was a teenager.
Speaker 2: Yeah we're talking about mom. I'm not Charantyate. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh no, yeah, we're talking about mama. But I mean
Speaker 1: just true crime was just different back in the day.
Speaker 1: So all right, So after the Charentate thing happens, now
Speaker 1: doctor Gooshi becomes a celebrity himself, and this is where
Speaker 1: I believe things really started to take a turn at
Speaker 1: not only with him, but at the LA Coroner's office
Speaker 1: because he was more he was getting a big head
Speaker 1: because of his own celebrity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you could really see after this time
Speaker 2: that he kind of is on this high horse after
Speaker 2: winning the hearings, and then Sharon Taa gets murdered not
Speaker 2: that long after his job's reinstated, so he's constantly in
Speaker 2: the press, and then by this point he just starts
Speaker 2: completely overstepping. He starts telling reporters information about the case
Speaker 2: before meeting with other law enforcement departments to discuss what's
Speaker 2: going on, and before toxicology's back, and before any of
Speaker 2: the exams are not exams, but the autopsies are completed
Speaker 2: and the reports are completed.
Speaker 1: Well, you know what's interesting now that you just say this,
Speaker 1: this makes me think of, you know, when when Gene
Speaker 1: Hackman just died and it's like everybody wants to be
Speaker 1: the first to jump on top of it, and he
Speaker 1: was kind of the original one that started that, like,
Speaker 1: we have to get the information out before the body
Speaker 1: is while the body's still warm, you know. And I
Speaker 1: think that that's what happened in that with him, is
Speaker 1: that he just wanted to be like, I'm the guy
Speaker 1: disseminating the information and I know everything, and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then like moving forward in his career, this
Speaker 2: ended up being a major problem because he was saying
Speaker 2: inaccurate information in cases like Natalie would He's just totally
Speaker 2: talking out of turn and just saying things that he
Speaker 2: doesn't even know are factually true yet because the reports
Speaker 2: aren't completed.
Speaker 1: So Natalie Wood's a really good one because ultimately I
Speaker 1: think that that case was the one that really started
Speaker 1: taking him down basically. But I mean, for all of
Speaker 1: you who are not super familiar, Natalie Wood had died
Speaker 1: in the early eighties, I believe right.
Speaker 2: It was the early eighties, and she was.
Speaker 1: On a boat with Christopher Walken and Robert Wagner, who
Speaker 1: was her husband, and they were just having this night
Speaker 1: like as usual, and all of a sudden, she ended
Speaker 1: up in the water and dead. So so Negosti again
Speaker 1: did Natalie Wood's autopsy and had said that she died
Speaker 1: from drowning. So there was all of these different theories
Speaker 1: as to well, why was she in the water because
Speaker 1: her sister insisted that she didn't know how to swim,
Speaker 1: and there's there were these bruises that were apparently on
Speaker 1: her body that one of the junior now you're talking
Speaker 1: about another junior pathologist at the time, had seen when
Speaker 1: he was assisting Nagoshi with the autopsy, who kind of
Speaker 1: like blew it off. And there's all of these different
Speaker 1: accounts of what happened that night, and there might have
Speaker 1: been a fight, and she might have been abused, and
Speaker 1: this and this, But what happened was that Nagoshi had
Speaker 1: said that she died from an accident because she drank
Speaker 1: a little too much. And he went on the news
Speaker 1: and talked about how these people were drinking too much
Speaker 1: and there might have been a fight between these two
Speaker 1: actors and like, you can't like talk shit like that
Speaker 1: on TV because when you're friends with Frank Sinatra, right,
Speaker 1: He got pissed about that. He was really pissed because
Speaker 1: I think he had like I don't know because I
Speaker 1: wasn't alive during the time, but he had this like
Speaker 1: soft spot from Natalie Wood from the time she was younger,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people even talk about how their
Speaker 1: their relationship was inappropriate because.
Speaker 2: Of go out with his son.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know, but I don't really know
Speaker 1: all the details of that. But he he got so
Speaker 1: upset that that he was talking shit like that kind
Speaker 1: of on TV. And he wrote this letter and just
Speaker 1: said to the Board of Supervisors and was just like
Speaker 1: coroners should be seen and not heard, basically just like
Speaker 1: you you do your job, and like we don't want
Speaker 1: to hear your opinions about it. He was stepping out
Speaker 1: of bounds. He wasn't like a celebrity gossip reporter, and
Speaker 1: a lot of this information just was the way he
Speaker 1: was talking was just kind of not necessary. And and
Speaker 1: you have to think, like two people will Christopher Walking
Speaker 1: and Robert Wagner were still alive and had a reputation
Speaker 1: as actors.
Speaker 2: So yeah, And when Christopher Walken was asked about Nogucci's
Speaker 2: comments related to Natalie Wood, he said, I don't remember
Speaker 2: the coroner being there to the press, which is like,
Speaker 2: if you, dude, you weren't even there and you're just
Speaker 2: talking out a turn stop, just assuming what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean listen, like a lot of people
Speaker 1: have been trying to reopen this case because people aren't
Speaker 1: just like satisfied with the fact that she accidentally died
Speaker 1: and we may never know. I made a joke yesterday
Speaker 1: somebody or or recently a couple of weeks ago, somebody
Speaker 1: asked a question after one of our episodes that said,
Speaker 1: what did they ask? What would you ask somebody if
Speaker 1: they die? Yeah or something? And I yeah, And then
Speaker 1: I was just like, well, I don't know if Christopher
Speaker 1: walkin dies or Robert Wagner, you might want to ask
Speaker 1: them what happened to Natalie Wood that night? Right, So
Speaker 1: we might we might not ever know. But back in
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, the La County Chief Coroner, so this is
Speaker 1: the person that had taken over for not even had
Speaker 1: directly taken over Nogucci's, but is in that spot. In
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, had amended Natalie Wood's death certificate and changed
Speaker 1: the cause of death or the cause of death from
Speaker 1: accidental drowning to drowning and undetermined factors. And the reason
Speaker 1: that that's important is because now that death certificate is
Speaker 1: reflecting that basically they don't know if she was intentionally
Speaker 1: pushed in the water or if she accidentally drowned and
Speaker 1: was in the water. And that's important to the family.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know, it really doesn't change anything, but
Speaker 1: the family likes to have that satisfaction to you know,
Speaker 1: don't close it off when there's all this other suspicious
Speaker 1: stuff that was happening, including you know, them thinking that
Speaker 1: the autopsy wasn't done correctly as well.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, and so around this time, right before Natalie
Speaker 2: Wood died, there was this other case of Ron settles,
Speaker 2: who is this upcoming foot a star who had been
Speaker 2: killed while he was in police custody. And during this time,
Speaker 2: Noguji accidentally revealed to somebody in the press that he
Speaker 2: had lost a major piece of evidence, which was the
Speaker 2: victim shirt. And then the La Times was like, you
Speaker 2: know what, We're gonna start doing an investigation about this
Speaker 2: because this guy's always in the press and we're just
Speaker 2: hearing some complaints about what's going on in the office.
Speaker 2: So I guess when after Sharon Tate, he just started
Speaker 2: being so focused on being in the press that he
Speaker 2: was letting the daily operation slip, constantly getting complaints. He
Speaker 2: actually ended up getting divorced because his wife was like,
Speaker 2: you're just like not the guy a bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're like a rock star and this is going
Speaker 1: to your head.
Speaker 2: A little bit. Yeah. So when the La Times does
Speaker 2: their investigation, they find that there's just like bodies piled up,
Speaker 2: there's mislabeling of evidence, they have unqualified staff, there was
Speaker 2: cross contamination with blood samples. Another thing I thought was
Speaker 2: really interesting was he really pushed for this new forensic
Speaker 2: facility and then it did it eventually end up getting
Speaker 2: built and they had equipment that was so new that
Speaker 2: nobody that worked there knew how to use it, which
Speaker 2: contributed to Yeah, and it contributed to a lot of
Speaker 2: these problems. So then when all this stuff's going on,
Speaker 2: it's nineteen eighty one, and then we fast forward to
Speaker 2: March of nineteen eighty two, and by this point, the
Speaker 2: La Times article comes out, and again the board is like,
Speaker 2: we need to suspend you again, but this time we
Speaker 2: really have proof that you did all these things, and
Speaker 2: they did an investigation and ultimately he did end up
Speaker 2: getting fired. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting though that I think that
Speaker 1: Frank Sinatra kind of like spearheaded that whole entire thing
Speaker 1: because he was just like, I mean, that guy had
Speaker 1: pull and ties to people and everything like that, and
Speaker 1: I think between his complaint and them actually being able
Speaker 1: to find all of these things that this guy was
Speaker 1: screwing up, they they were just like not having it.
Speaker 2: So I think all in all, even though he got fired,
Speaker 2: a lot of his colleagues did really respect his work
Speaker 2: and thought that he was a really good pathologist. But
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, you can't let things slip,
Speaker 2: and you certainly can't lose evidence and let you know,
Speaker 2: samples get cross contaminated, because that matters when it comes
Speaker 2: to somebody going on trial or like in your case,
Speaker 2: him saying with Natalie Wood that she accidentally slipped when
Speaker 2: they really don't have enough evidence to determine that.
Speaker 1: Could you imagine I mean we're just talking about the
Speaker 1: celebrity deaths right now, but could you imagine like the
Speaker 1: real all of the real life people that died in
Speaker 1: this time period in Los Angeles? Like I would if
Speaker 1: that was my family, I'd be so skeptical because of
Speaker 1: all the craziness that was going on there at the time,
Speaker 1: and thinking that the guy in charge is just like
Speaker 1: more concerned with being famous than actually taking care of
Speaker 1: death and being you know, if you think about it,
Speaker 1: like most of the time, you don't really know who
Speaker 1: the medical examiner is anywhere because they're usually in a
Speaker 1: basement doing autopsies. Right, They're not all celebrity people there.
Speaker 2: The only two I can name off the top of
Speaker 2: my head with us doing this amount of research is
Speaker 2: this guy and doctor g medical examiner. Which is she
Speaker 2: even considered a coroner?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, she's a medical examiner, and it just the
Speaker 1: word coroner is different throughout the country, coroner is is
Speaker 1: typically a position that's elected, as opposed to a medical
Speaker 1: examiner is appointed. But I believe in Los Angeles, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that that coroner is elected. It might be well,
Speaker 1: I guess that board that what's his name Frank Sinatra
Speaker 1: went to was the people that appoint the medical examiner.
Speaker 1: So but yes, she's she's a forensic pathologist. That so,
Speaker 1: yes she is. And she worked the famous the Kaylee
Speaker 1: Anthony case in Florida. There. She she's awesome. I love
Speaker 1: that lady. But like doctor Boden and stuff, but the
Speaker 1: only well, doctor g had a TV show, so yeah,
Speaker 1: between that and yeah, but but in general, like throughout
Speaker 1: the country, you don't really know who these people were.
Speaker 1: And I think it was determined that like, yes, he
Speaker 1: definitely had developed an image of corner the Stars, and
Speaker 1: they officially got rid of him at that point. I
Speaker 1: think that you guys will really like this book. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you are interested in what me and Maria had
Speaker 1: been talking about, because there are other cases that they
Speaker 1: that she goes more in depth with. Obviously, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think it sums up my theory of the VIP doctors.
Speaker 1: Usually in the celebrity death dissections. We talk about in
Speaker 1: the grosser room. The VIP doctors are the ones that
Speaker 1: are taking care of the celebrities, but this time it's
Speaker 1: a VIP corner, and we see that that doesn't go
Speaker 1: so well either when celebrities get different treatment than regular
Speaker 1: people do. So I think it's just like a good
Speaker 1: lesson for overall that you don't really want to have
Speaker 1: VIP treatment when you die or you're sick.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, But this book comes out in April twenty second,
Speaker 2: so I think you guys will definitely be interested.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder,
Speaker 1: my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a
Speaker 1: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
Speaker 1: I am not a doctor, and I have not diagnosed
Speaker 1: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
Speaker 1: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
Speaker 1: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
Speaker 1: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
Speaker 1: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember
Speaker 1: that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed
Speaker 1: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
Speaker 1: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
Speaker 1: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
Speaker 1: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
Speaker 1: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, you,
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