1 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: Mother Knows Dad starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk Hi. Everyone. 2 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Mother Knows Death. One of the advantages to 3 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: this job and having this position on this podcast is 4 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: that we get advanced copies of people's books. And we 5 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: recently received a copy of a book by an author 6 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: named doctor Ann Sue Chen who came out with well, 7 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: she didn't come out with it yet. It's coming out 8 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: on when's it coming out? 9 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: April twenty second. 10 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: April twenty second, So it's in the works, but we 11 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: had a copy of it. We're able to read it, 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: and it is titled La Coroner, Thomas Negucci and Death 13 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: in Hollywood. And you guys will love this because we 14 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: think the juiciest subjects on this show are the celebrity deaths, 15 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of them in this book. 16 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I actually read this book in about two days, 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 2: and I thought it was a pretty easy read and 18 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: definitely kept my attention the entire time. Just briefly, it 19 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: goes over the career of doctor Thomas Negucci, who is 20 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 2: the chief coroner in La County. Between nineteen sixty seven 21 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: and nineteen eighty two. He had a brief suspension in 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, which we'll talk about a little bit 23 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 2: in this episode and goes into more detail in the book. 24 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: But crazy enough, he is still alive at ninety years 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 2: old and he inspired the TV show Quincy's That's really cool. Yeah, 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 2: So we're going to start off talking about the deaths 27 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 2: of Marilyn Monroe and getting another one such as Bobby Kennedy, 28 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: Sharon Tate, and Natalie Wood. 29 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: Let's talk about this for a second, because I just 30 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: think by by proxy, like you, if you work in 31 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: Los Angeles and you're either a cop, a firefighter, an 32 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: EMS person, or you're a coroner, you're going to see 33 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: the most celebrities of any other offices in the entire country, 34 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: just because most of the celebrities are either working in 35 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: Los Angeles or living in Los Angeles. And what happens is, 36 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to coroners and where your autopsy 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: is done. If you die, it's done by jurisdiction. So 38 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe, she had died in Los Angeles and the 39 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: jurisdiction is the Los Angeles Coroner's Office, So there are 40 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: going to be the ones that do the autopsy. And 41 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: that's almost across the country. Is where you die is 42 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: where you have the autopsy. It doesn't necessarily matter where 43 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: you're from, it's where you die. So even actors that 44 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: are visiting Hollywood that die would still get the autopsy 45 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: done at the LA Coroner's office, which is why we 46 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: hear that they're involved in so many celebrity deaths. So 47 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: let's start off first by talking about Marilyn Monroe. So 48 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: we did a celebrity death dissection in the gross room 49 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: probably five years ago. She was one of the first 50 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: ones I've ever did in the groceryroom. So Nogucci, he's 51 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: a what was he like a a junior pathologist at 52 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: the time. He was just newly working there at the 53 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's office there in Los Angeles, and he went 54 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: to work as usual that Monday, it was August fifth, 55 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, and on his desk he found a 56 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: message from the Chief Medical Examiner. So the chief medical 57 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: Examiner is kind of the boss that overlooks all of 58 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: the other medical examiners underneath of them, and it said, 59 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: quote doctor Kurfey wants doctor Nagochi to do the autopsy 60 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: on Marilyn Monroe, which I kind of think is kind 61 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: of interesting that the chief medical examiner would not be 62 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: the one that was like, I'm putting my name on 63 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: this because this is going to be a big frickin' deal. 64 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: Well, do you think that's maybe why he didn't, because 65 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: he knew this was going to be such a problem 66 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: and he didn't want to be associated with it. 67 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure, I think so. There's two different things 68 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: that I could think of. It's either that or maybe 69 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: Nogucci at that time had such a good reputation for 70 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: being meticulous and being able to determine cause of death 71 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: that maybe he felt he felt that he would be 72 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: the best to do it. Although I'm sure I'm sure 73 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: it's the former. Like you understand, I just think it's 74 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: a little unusual. Most high profile cases, the chief will 75 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, I'll be the one that steps in 76 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: on this. So Marilyn was so anybody that listens to 77 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: the show probably knows the deal, and we don't have 78 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: to get super into all of the details, but there 79 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: were some suspicious findings immediately with just how the whole 80 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: thing went down. She was found dead, She was naked, 81 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: which is unusual, She was in a weird unnatural position 82 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: with her right hand gripping the telephone receiver as if 83 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: somebody was intentionally trying to set her up to look 84 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: that way. And there were bottles containing sleeping pills on 85 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: the bedside, so that was unusual. And then there was 86 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,799 Speaker 1: also do you remember there was like some unusual things 87 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: with the way the housekeeper acted to Apparently the housekeeper 88 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: had called her psychiatrist before calling police, and like a 89 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: whole entire hour before calling police. And then when the 90 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: police showed up, the housekeeper, who was also considered to 91 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: be Marilyn Monroe's friend, had had a load of wash running, 92 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: which is unusual. Like if you're a housekeeper living with 93 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: a person taking care of them, in friends with a person, 94 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: why on earth would you think about doing a load 95 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: of wash while this person's laying dead and the police 96 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: are there investigating their death. It's just bizarre. 97 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 2: I could she have thrown it in before she found 98 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: her No. 99 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: I think that they determined that whatever time of the 100 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: cycle it was, that it was done after they determined 101 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: that she had died. So there was just like a 102 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: little bit of weirdness around there. So I mean, and 103 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: it's Marilyn Monroe and and and there's a million things. 104 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: So he gets the body to the medical examiner's office 105 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: and he does the autopsy, and he said that nothing 106 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: really looked abnormal about her organs. Whenever you find someone dead. 107 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: Who's she was, how old was she? 108 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: She was young? 109 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: She was young. 110 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: She was young. Yeah, look that up exactly, because she 111 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: was either in her late twenties or early thirties, but 112 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: she was very young. You find somebody dead that has 113 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: now Marilyn Monroe has a history of previous suicide attempts, 114 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: a history of taking these medications. So whenever you see that, 115 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: you see the pills at the bedside, you're thinking, okay, 116 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: it's possible that she did take her own life. So 117 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: he does the autopsy, and of course he's thinking as 118 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: well when he does it. But then when he gets 119 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: to her stomach, he finds nothing in her stomach, which 120 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: means that she didn't swallow a whole bunch of pills 121 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: and then die. That didn't happen because he didn't find 122 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: any undigested pills in her upper gi track like that. 123 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: And that's something that you would see when somebody was 124 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: having an act of desperation and just taking a lot 125 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: of pills at one time, so he thought that that 126 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: was a little weird and did question it. But he 127 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: sent all of this stuff to get tested for toxicology, 128 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: which would include samples of her liver, blood and things 129 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: like that, and the toxicology came back and there was 130 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: this head toxicologist and he had said that the levels 131 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: of pentobarbital and chlorohydrate were fatal and they decided based 132 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: on that that she died of a drug overdose and 133 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: her manner of death was suicide. Now, the thing that 134 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: doctor Nagochi had brought up in the future was that 135 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: he was, like we said, he was a junior pathologist. 136 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: He didn't have any experience or say in much because 137 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: he didn't want to question this chief toxicologist that had 138 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: all this experience over him. But he was kind of 139 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: thinking it was a little weird that they didn't run 140 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: the toxicology on the actual stomach contents as well as 141 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: other organs that he had asked them to do, and 142 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: they kind of blew them off to do like a 143 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: more thorough autopsy just to cross off any concern that 144 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: there might be. So that was one of the things 145 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 1: that started being concerning to people as far as them 146 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: just automatically saying that she died of suicide. And sometimes 147 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: when you determine, because when anybody overdoses on any kind 148 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: of drugs, whether it's legal drugs or prescription drugs, you 149 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: always have to take into consideration some of the circumstances 150 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: that will determine if the manner of death was an accident, 151 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: or if the manner of death was suicide, or if 152 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: the manner of death was homicide, which we'll get into 153 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: a minute with that because that sounds a little weird, 154 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: but with suicide you will check. So she did have 155 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: a history of previous suicide attempts, which is very strong, 156 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: but there was no suicide note and there were no 157 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: undigestive pills in her stomach, So that has to make 158 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: you think like, Okay, this didn't seem like an acute 159 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: thing that she that she killed herself, so let's look 160 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: at other things that could be done. So the next 161 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: thing you're going to look at is okay, okay, well 162 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: was this an accident? Did she maybe take too many 163 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: of these medications together by accident? And now those questions 164 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: are really out the window because they didn't check the 165 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: stomach contents, so they don't even know if the pills 166 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: were digested or if those things were in her system 167 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: for a little bit longer. And the reason that I 168 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: bring up homicide in this case is because, in my 169 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: personal opinion, so we do know that there's been all 170 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: of these theories going on for the past however many 171 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: years that Marilyn was killed by the Kennedys, that there 172 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: was something associated with the Kennedys. 173 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: Well, you really can't ignore the connection to them, and they're, 174 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 2: you know, infamous curse that everybody no. 175 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: I yeah, and I'm not. But but based upon what 176 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: I see, I honestly would say that her manner of 177 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: death should be homicide, but not because of the Kennedy's involvement, 178 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: but because of It's kind of like a Michael Jackson 179 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: case in which Marilyn Monroe had inappropriate relationships with her 180 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: doctors getting VIP treatment medications she shouldn't be on. She 181 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: had a strong family history of psychological disease, personal family 182 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: history of psychological disease, and then it was like she 183 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: had a personal physician and a psychiatrist that were not 184 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: in great communication with each other about what medications they 185 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,359 Speaker 1: were giving her, and she was over over over medicated, 186 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: and that is my opinion as to how she died. 187 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: She just had way too many drugs in her system. 188 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: And I personally don't believe that she intended to kill 189 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: herself based upon the way the whole scene was set up. 190 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: I think once now, listen, this is why I think 191 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: a shady like if that if the housekeeper called the 192 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: psychiatrist first and they were on the phone and talking 193 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: for over an hour before they called police, I actually 194 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: think it's possible that the psychiatrist had like a meltdown 195 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: because she was dead, and then all of a sudden 196 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: was like, oh my God, like this is going to 197 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: be on me. And then somehow the housekeeper was told 198 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: to like make it seem like she looked like she 199 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: killed herself. Honestly, I believe that. Now anybody could argue 200 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: with me and say whatever, but that's what I think 201 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: think that's really what I think happened based upon everything 202 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: that I've read so far about it. So I guess, 203 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: getting back to the book that you read, what happened 204 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: with that, Like after he had done this autopsy on Marilyn, 205 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: how was he held in the media and how what 206 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: did people think of him after that? 207 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 2: Well, in the book. It seems like, you know, he 208 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 2: was getting pretty good recognition for the work he did 209 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: in the autopsy, except for the botch toxicology like you 210 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 2: were talking about, because even though he was adamant that 211 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 2: he had ordered those tests on all of her organs 212 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: and you know, the higher ups just didn't complete them, 213 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 2: it ultimately reflected poorly on him, which also brings back 214 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: the point earlier where you were saying, like, why wouldn't 215 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 2: the chief coroner do it? He had to have predicted 216 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: in some capacity this was going to be controversial. 217 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I really to just wrap 218 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: up Marilyn Monroe. I really believe that if if she 219 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: had died in two tenty twenty five, the manner of 220 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: death certainly wouldn't have been ruled suicide, and honestly, her 221 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: treating physicians would possibly be facing charges and the manner 222 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: death might be rolled homicide, similar to what happened with 223 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson, Because I mean, and listen, like, we could 224 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: go over so many different celebrity deaths that don't involve 225 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: Nogochi that are the same exact situation where the treating 226 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: physicians are responsible for these people's deaths. 227 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 2: I mean, if you want to think at about the 228 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: sixties too, sorry to cut you off. I just like, 229 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: I think this part of pop culture when we talk 230 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 2: about the sixties that we were always focusing on is 231 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: like the casual pill popping element. And I think that 232 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 2: maybe you're suggesting this too, that like the doctors are 233 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: just not being held responsible for this because it was 234 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 2: just so common to go and get pills, and you know, 235 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: it's this like joke and all these shows we watched, 236 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 2: like Madmen and Palm Royale and everything, that these women 237 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 2: are just so casually popping pills, and that seemed like 238 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 2: the culture she was participating in too, So it doesn't 239 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: seem like anybody being held responsible. 240 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I can't imagine, Like I just think she 241 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: had a level of fame that was that was unlike 242 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: any other and attention, and it's just if you're walking 243 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: into a situation like that already mentally unstable, it's just terrible. 244 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: And then you know you've heard this from even from 245 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: Dorothy with Wizard of Oz and everything, how she had 246 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: to take pills to lose weight, and there was just 247 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on You need to be alert, 248 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: you need to be peppy, but then you need to 249 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: go home and you need to go to sleep, and 250 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: you need to take these pills. You know, you're taking 251 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: essentially speed to stay thin, and then they want you 252 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: to go to sleep and come to work the next day. 253 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: And it's just like pills to stay awake, pills to 254 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: go to sleep, pills for your anxiety, this, that, and 255 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: the other. And they didn't have They were saying that 256 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: there's a possibility that she had bipolar disease or something 257 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,119 Speaker 1: like that, and they didn't really have any great drugs 258 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: back then that they have now to be able to 259 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: treat those types of things. And when you give patients, 260 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: especially who should be on antipsychotics, you give them other 261 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: kinds of medications that could just exacerbate their symptoms. So 262 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: they were just she would come up with one thing 263 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: and they'd mask it with another. And when you look 264 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: at the levels of medication that were not only in 265 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: her body that but were prescribed to her at the 266 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: same time, how could a regular person ever know that 267 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: they were supposed to take that much or not. Like 268 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: it's just it's a sad situation. But I think what 269 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: we could learn about the autopsy is like and we 270 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: were just talking about this with the Gene Hackman autopsy, 271 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: for example, and when I was saying a couple episodes back, 272 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: how I thought that they did such a thorough job 273 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: because you don't want anyone like me or even just 274 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: anybody going in there and picking apart your report and 275 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: being like, did you check this? What about this? What 276 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: about this? Because it leaves holes open and then it 277 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,479 Speaker 1: makes people question your results. 278 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 2: Well, I thought this was interesting too, when you were 279 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: talking about on last week's episode about Jim Morrison and 280 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 2: how they didn't do toxicology or anything on him, because 281 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: we clearly had it in nineteen sixty two when her 282 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: death occurred, So why wasn't this done almost ten years later? Exactly? 283 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: So okay, So another which and there's a lot of 284 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: like intermingling with all of these celebrities, which is also 285 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: super unusual. So one of the next high profile celebrity 286 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: deaths he did was on Bobby Kennedy, right, And and 287 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: that one I think because he got heat from the 288 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe autopsy not being the best thing. Ever, when 289 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: he did the body Bobby Kennedy one, I think he 290 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: learned his lesson a little bit from the Marilyn Monroe autopsy, 291 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: and he did a thorough six hour autopsy on him, 292 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: which many fragns it people have said has was like 293 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: a perfect autopsy. 294 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 2: Right, Wait, so how like how long would a normal 295 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: autopsy because I don't know that in my mind it 296 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: would take all day. So why is six hours so long? 297 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: It? Six hours, in my opinion, is a very long 298 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: time for an autopsy. They could be very very fast. 299 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: They could be as as fast as an hour if 300 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: you could figure out how the person died. But when 301 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: if you want to take the organs out and you 302 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: really want to go through and document every single inch 303 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: of their body from their head to their toe and 304 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: look at every organ and document it and photograph it 305 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: and measure it, it could take a long time. And 306 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: six and a half hours is like if we did 307 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: autopsies at children's hospital, they would take that long because 308 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: you're you're looking at a terrible situation for parents. Plus 309 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: you're looking to see if they have any underlying congenital 310 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: issues that may affect if the parents want to have 311 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: another baby, and things like that. You have to be 312 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: way more meticulous with a child autopsy. But six and 313 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,719 Speaker 1: a half hours for an adult is a lot. So 314 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: when I hear that, I'm like, Okay, this guy was 315 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: not messing around when he did this autopsy. He was 316 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: just like, they're not going to find anything wrong with this, 317 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: And it seems like it seems like they didn't. Right 318 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: like they Most people thought that he did a really 319 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: good job with this. Yeah, And I also in the 320 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: book it kind of gets into how he started the 321 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: autopsy at the feet, and a lot of people thought 322 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: this was unusual. So I wanted your perspective on this. 323 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: I well, when you're talking about doing the autopsy, it's 324 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: especially with defeat, you would there would be rare cases 325 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: where you would actually ever cut a person open down there. 326 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: So you're talking about the external exam starting, and I 327 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: don't have a problem with that if that was just 328 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: what he wanted to do, to go up versus go down, 329 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 1: because there's different things you're looking for on the external exam. 330 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: Number one is is this person who they who they're 331 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: supposed to be. Does it look like their age, does 332 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: it match their driver's license, does you know all of 333 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Then you're looking for general changes 334 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: associated with death, so you would think about, uh, like 335 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: rigor mortis and libra mortis and and different things like that, 336 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: any medical kind of intervention that they might have looked 337 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: like they had our medical condition that you know, are 338 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: they jaundice or things like that that might clue you 339 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 1: into why they died. And then you're going to look 340 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: for signs of any kind of trauma that might be 341 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: associated with either a medical intervention or if somebody hurt it, 342 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: hurt them or hurt themselves. So, especially when you're talking 343 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: about an autopsy of someone of Bobby Kennedy's stature and 344 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: then our status, and also you just don't want to 345 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: You definitely don't want to screw anything up with that 346 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 1: because not only that it was a homicide, it took 347 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: place on it was live on TV, right, they have 348 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: video of it. There's going to be someone that's going 349 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: to get convicted of this. If they get caught, they 350 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: want to make sure that they're doing a thorough job. 351 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: So from his autopsy, he determined, which is really interesting, 352 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: that the fatal shot was to the back of Bobby 353 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: Kennedy's head behind his right ear, and they he said 354 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: that it was no more than seventy five millimeters away, 355 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: which is pretty close to have the gun to the head. Now, 356 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: the problem is is that none of the witnesses reported 357 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: seeing the guy Saransern, who was actually convicted of this 358 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 1: crime that close to his head. And there's multiple theories, 359 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: and most people would agree at this point that they 360 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: believed that there were two different gunmen just because there 361 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: were way too many bullets found at this scene that 362 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't even fit in one gun. So I'm curious when 363 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: those were get released of any more of that. But 364 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,959 Speaker 1: there is a person in prison serving time for this 365 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 1: who definitely did shoot him, but they believe they believe 366 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists. I guess I would say believe that he 367 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: was not the person that actually fired the fatal shot 368 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: that killed him. And it's just really interesting because Nagoshi 369 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: also didn't really say He pointed out himself in his 370 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: memoir that he never officially ruled that he thought that 371 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: Saram was the fatal shot. 372 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, he definitely had doubts about that based on the 373 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: evidence he was reviewing. 374 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, And one other interesting thing I want to bring 375 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: out about Bobby Kennedy's autopsy is that he was visiting California. 376 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: He was not from California, and the autopsy automatically because 377 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: of jurisdiction, goes to that medical examiner's office. But Bobby 378 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 1: Kennedy's family wanted him to get flown back to Washington, 379 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: d C. To have his autopsy done, which I think 380 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: is interesting because with JFK a similar thing happened where 381 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: he was supposed to get his autopsy done in Dallas 382 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: because that was the jurisdiction of where he died, and 383 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: they insisted on flying him back to Washington, D C. 384 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: And that's when he had that botched autopsy done, which 385 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: is again leaving all of these conspiracy theories wide open. 386 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: So it's interesting to me that his family would want 387 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: to do that again, almost to not have the person 388 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: that was supposed to be doing it. But ultimately, when 389 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: a medical examiner has jurisdiction over a body, they could 390 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: really just be like no, like we're the law, we're 391 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: in charge, and we're doing it. So they were very 392 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: stern about it, and that's how negoti ended up doing 393 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy's autopsy. 394 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 2: Well, why would you even risk moving the body when 395 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 2: it's such a high profile person. 396 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: Well, I mean the moving of the body is I mean, 397 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: the moving of the body is not necessarily the problem. 398 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: It's just like, why why would you have it done 399 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: somewhere else by someone that's not listen. I could say 400 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 1: this with every single situation of again, this VIP treatment. 401 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: When you don't follow the normal procedure, whether you're in 402 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: the hospital and you're taking care of patients that are 403 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: getting surgery or if you're doing autopsies, if you're not 404 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: doing what you would do for every other regular person, 405 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: that's when shit gets screwed up, and it's just like 406 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: the best thing ever is to just let it go 407 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: how it would go for any regular person when it 408 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: comes to medicine and death investigation. That's my personal opinion. 409 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: And I could say that because I've done hundreds of 410 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: these celebrity death dissections and high profile death dissections, and 411 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: you could see that all of the times that there's 412 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: all these questions and all of these botched autopsies have 413 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: to do with people not following protocol. 414 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 2: This episode is to you by the Grosser Room. Guys. 415 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: The Grossroom is on sale for only twenty dollars for 416 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: the whole entire year, which ends up being a little 417 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: bit more than a nickel a day, and it's totally 418 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: worth it. Because you will have access to thousands of 419 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: videos and photos along with all of these stories we 420 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: talk about, plus lots of other stories we don't cover 421 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: on Mother No's death. We just had a really interesting 422 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: case yesterday of a guy who was found dead by 423 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: the side of the road and showing what the autopsy 424 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: and investigation showed to figure out how they were able 425 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: to determine that he really wasn't murdered as they originally thought, 426 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: but it was a really just terrific accident. So make 427 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: sure you check out the gross Room. 428 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, head over to the grossroom dot com now for 429 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 2: more info and to sign up. 430 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: So now he's negoti is like a well known figure 431 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: at this point that's been on TV a lot talking 432 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: about these higher profile celebrity deaths that he's done autopsies on. 433 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: So now people are starting to know who this guy 434 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: is and what happened in his personal life or his 435 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: work life. So because he was constantly in the press, 436 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: he was also trying to take this opportunity to let 437 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: everybody know how underfunded their department was and how they 438 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: just didn't have enough resources, which really pissed his bosses off. 439 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: So this became this whole problem where after that, you know, 440 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: he was facing some racism with being Japanese in a 441 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: post World War two era, and then mixed with him 442 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: complaining about the department publicly and not dealing with it privately. 443 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 1: They were kind of just like, we're over you. So 444 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: they went to him and they were like, listen, you're 445 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: gonna resign because we have evidence which came out. 446 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 2: Later to be false. They were trying to say that 447 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: they had evidence that he was on amphetamines, and he 448 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 2: was acting erratic during RFK and he was botching parts 449 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 2: of the autopsy. So ultimately he didn't think he had 450 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: a chance at winning, and he did sign the resignation papers. 451 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 2: But then after a conversation with his wife and some 452 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 2: supporters of him, he's like, why am I going to resign? 453 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 2: I haven't done anything wrong. And so there was these 454 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: hearings that were constantly in the press, and this really 455 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 2: launched him into his own celebrity because these hearings were 456 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 2: a huge deal in the news. 457 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: So what's interesting about these hearings is that he hired 458 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: his defense lawyer. His name was Godfrey Isaac, and that 459 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: lawyer later became an attorney for Sarron Sarn the one 460 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: who was convicted of killing Robert Kennedy. He became his 461 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: attorney after he was convicted. Isn't that kind of interesting 462 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: and weird? Yet, I'm telling you, there's a lot of 463 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: interconnections with all of these cases. 464 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 2: How was it not like a conflict of interest? 465 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: I really I don't understand. So he got accused of 466 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: all this stuff, and what happened after those hearings? 467 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 2: So after the hearings, I mean, they totally proved that 468 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 2: there was racism, and they had been making things up, 469 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 2: and the board had been trying to work to turn 470 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: his coworkers against him, and he ultimately got reinstated in 471 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine and got his job back because he 472 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: proved he did nothing wrong and it was like all bullshit. 473 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: Basically after he was he was essentially they tried to 474 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: fire him or make him quit, and then he was reinstated. 475 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: Yet another high profile death happens, which is Sharon Tate. 476 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. So an interesting point that the book brought up 477 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 2: is that they were saying that he got called to 478 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: the scene of Sharon Tate's murders, which of course the 479 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: press knows when the chief coroner shows up, It's like 480 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 2: a really big deal. So I of course had a 481 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: question for you, is that a really big deal because 482 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 2: I assume that they're busy and they don't have time 483 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 2: to go to every single scene in their district. Yeah, 484 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 2: they definitely don't, and they only go to ones that 485 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: are a higher profile. So for example, in Philadelphia, I 486 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: recall during the time that I was involved there there 487 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 2: was you know, that's why they have death investigators like 488 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan and stuff go on the scene, take pictures, 489 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: do the interviews and everything like that. But in Philadelphia 490 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 2: there was a case where there was an Amtrak derailment, 491 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 2: you remember that, So that would be a case where 492 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 2: the chief Medical Examiner shows up to the scene because 493 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 2: it's super high profile, it's on the news every people died, 494 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 2: they wanted you know what I mean, like stuff like that. 495 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 2: They wouldn't just go to to any scene. Obviously, the 496 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 2: Sharon Tate thing was outrageous, so that's why the chief 497 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 2: medical Examiner showed up because that was going to be 498 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: a huge deal. Yeah, And I think for me, so 499 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: I'm always trying to pinpoint when this like huge true 500 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 2: crime fascination started, right, we could always argue it could 501 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: be back to Sherlock Holmes and everything, But I'm thinking 502 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 2: of the modern celebrity death that we know today, and 503 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 2: I always personally point that to the OJ trials. But 504 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: I think the book makes a really good argument that 505 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 2: the Manson murders really changed the culture of celebrity death 506 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 2: with entertainment and news because it was this huge deal. 507 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: She was this huge star married to Roman Polancy, this 508 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: enormous director that had these big movies out at the time. 509 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 2: And then you have this guy who after this crime 510 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 2: gets deemed the coroner to the stars come out and 511 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: he's just constantly in the press because of how high 512 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 2: profile the cases are. Then you find out it's like 513 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: this ritualistic cult behind the whole thing. I mean, this 514 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 2: must have been huge at the time. 515 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,479 Speaker 1: This needs to talk to mo mom about this. 516 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 2: She doesn't. I was just about to say that because 517 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 2: when I was like doing a lot of research on 518 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 2: Ted Bundy a couple of years ago, for example, I 519 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 2: was like, what was it like? She because you're I 520 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 2: can remember because. 521 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: You're thinking about it from a person living in twenty 522 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: twenty five's perspective. They didn't have the internet, they only 523 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: had the news on once a day. I'm not even 524 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: sure they had the local news at that time. Like, 525 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: it just was a different They probably barely knew that 526 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: a lot of this was going on. They might have 527 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: heard of it, but there wasn't like the twenty four 528 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: hour news cycle alerts coming across your phone. It just 529 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: was a different time. What year did Charantate happen? 530 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: Nineteen sixty nine? 531 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: Okay, so in nineteen sixty nine, she was like not 532 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: even twenty years old. Yet you have to think about 533 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: that too, Like she was not she was a teenager. 534 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: Yeah we're talking about mom. I'm not Charantyate. Yeah. 535 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: Oh no, yeah, we're talking about mama. But I mean 536 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: just true crime was just different back in the day. 537 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: So all right, So after the Charentate thing happens, now 538 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: doctor Gooshi becomes a celebrity himself, and this is where 539 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: I believe things really started to take a turn at 540 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: not only with him, but at the LA Coroner's office 541 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: because he was more he was getting a big head 542 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: because of his own celebrity. 543 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you could really see after this time 544 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 2: that he kind of is on this high horse after 545 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 2: winning the hearings, and then Sharon Taa gets murdered not 546 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 2: that long after his job's reinstated, so he's constantly in 547 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 2: the press, and then by this point he just starts 548 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 2: completely overstepping. He starts telling reporters information about the case 549 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 2: before meeting with other law enforcement departments to discuss what's 550 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 2: going on, and before toxicology's back, and before any of 551 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 2: the exams are not exams, but the autopsies are completed 552 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 2: and the reports are completed. 553 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: Well, you know what's interesting now that you just say this, 554 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: this makes me think of, you know, when when Gene 555 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: Hackman just died and it's like everybody wants to be 556 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: the first to jump on top of it, and he 557 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: was kind of the original one that started that, like, 558 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: we have to get the information out before the body 559 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: is while the body's still warm, you know. And I 560 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,239 Speaker 1: think that that's what happened in that with him, is 561 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: that he just wanted to be like, I'm the guy 562 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: disseminating the information and I know everything, and. 563 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, but then like moving forward in his career, this 564 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 2: ended up being a major problem because he was saying 565 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 2: inaccurate information in cases like Natalie would He's just totally 566 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: talking out of turn and just saying things that he 567 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 2: doesn't even know are factually true yet because the reports 568 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 2: aren't completed. 569 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: So Natalie Wood's a really good one because ultimately I 570 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: think that that case was the one that really started 571 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: taking him down basically. But I mean, for all of 572 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: you who are not super familiar, Natalie Wood had died 573 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: in the early eighties, I believe right. 574 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 2: It was the early eighties, and she was. 575 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: On a boat with Christopher Walken and Robert Wagner, who 576 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: was her husband, and they were just having this night 577 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: like as usual, and all of a sudden, she ended 578 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: up in the water and dead. So so Negosti again 579 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: did Natalie Wood's autopsy and had said that she died 580 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: from drowning. So there was all of these different theories 581 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: as to well, why was she in the water because 582 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: her sister insisted that she didn't know how to swim, 583 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: and there's there were these bruises that were apparently on 584 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: her body that one of the junior now you're talking 585 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: about another junior pathologist at the time, had seen when 586 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: he was assisting Nagoshi with the autopsy, who kind of 587 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: like blew it off. And there's all of these different 588 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: accounts of what happened that night, and there might have 589 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: been a fight, and she might have been abused, and 590 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: this and this, But what happened was that Nagoshi had 591 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: said that she died from an accident because she drank 592 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: a little too much. And he went on the news 593 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: and talked about how these people were drinking too much 594 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: and there might have been a fight between these two 595 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: actors and like, you can't like talk shit like that 596 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: on TV because when you're friends with Frank Sinatra, right, 597 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: He got pissed about that. He was really pissed because 598 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: I think he had like I don't know because I 599 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: wasn't alive during the time, but he had this like 600 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: soft spot from Natalie Wood from the time she was younger, 601 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: and a lot of people even talk about how their 602 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: their relationship was inappropriate because. 603 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 2: Of go out with his son. 604 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know, but I don't really know 605 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: all the details of that. But he he got so 606 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,919 Speaker 1: upset that that he was talking shit like that kind 607 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: of on TV. And he wrote this letter and just 608 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 1: said to the Board of Supervisors and was just like 609 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: coroners should be seen and not heard, basically just like 610 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,919 Speaker 1: you you do your job, and like we don't want 611 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,879 Speaker 1: to hear your opinions about it. He was stepping out 612 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: of bounds. He wasn't like a celebrity gossip reporter, and 613 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: a lot of this information just was the way he 614 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: was talking was just kind of not necessary. And and 615 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: you have to think, like two people will Christopher Walking 616 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: and Robert Wagner were still alive and had a reputation 617 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: as actors. 618 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 2: So yeah, And when Christopher Walken was asked about Nogucci's 619 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 2: comments related to Natalie Wood, he said, I don't remember 620 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 2: the coroner being there to the press, which is like, 621 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 2: if you, dude, you weren't even there and you're just 622 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 2: talking out a turn stop, just assuming what happened. 623 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean listen, like a lot of people 624 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: have been trying to reopen this case because people aren't 625 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: just like satisfied with the fact that she accidentally died 626 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: and we may never know. I made a joke yesterday 627 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 1: somebody or or recently a couple of weeks ago, somebody 628 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: asked a question after one of our episodes that said, 629 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: what did they ask? What would you ask somebody if 630 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: they die? Yeah or something? And I yeah, And then 631 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 1: I was just like, well, I don't know if Christopher 632 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: walkin dies or Robert Wagner, you might want to ask 633 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: them what happened to Natalie Wood that night? Right, So 634 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: we might we might not ever know. But back in 635 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: twenty twelve, the La County Chief Coroner, so this is 636 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: the person that had taken over for not even had 637 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: directly taken over Nogucci's, but is in that spot. In 638 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: twenty twelve, had amended Natalie Wood's death certificate and changed 639 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: the cause of death or the cause of death from 640 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: accidental drowning to drowning and undetermined factors. And the reason 641 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: that that's important is because now that death certificate is 642 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: reflecting that basically they don't know if she was intentionally 643 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: pushed in the water or if she accidentally drowned and 644 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: was in the water. And that's important to the family. 645 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I know, it really doesn't change anything, but 646 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: the family likes to have that satisfaction to you know, 647 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: don't close it off when there's all this other suspicious 648 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: stuff that was happening, including you know, them thinking that 649 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: the autopsy wasn't done correctly as well. 650 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, and so around this time, right before Natalie 651 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 2: Wood died, there was this other case of Ron settles, 652 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 2: who is this upcoming foot a star who had been 653 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 2: killed while he was in police custody. And during this time, 654 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 2: Noguji accidentally revealed to somebody in the press that he 655 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 2: had lost a major piece of evidence, which was the 656 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 2: victim shirt. And then the La Times was like, you 657 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 2: know what, We're gonna start doing an investigation about this 658 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 2: because this guy's always in the press and we're just 659 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 2: hearing some complaints about what's going on in the office. 660 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 2: So I guess when after Sharon Tate, he just started 661 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 2: being so focused on being in the press that he 662 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: was letting the daily operation slip, constantly getting complaints. He 663 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 2: actually ended up getting divorced because his wife was like, 664 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 2: you're just like not the guy a bit. 665 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're like a rock star and this is going 666 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 1: to your head. 667 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 2: A little bit. Yeah. So when the La Times does 668 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 2: their investigation, they find that there's just like bodies piled up, 669 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 2: there's mislabeling of evidence, they have unqualified staff, there was 670 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 2: cross contamination with blood samples. Another thing I thought was 671 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 2: really interesting was he really pushed for this new forensic 672 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 2: facility and then it did it eventually end up getting 673 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 2: built and they had equipment that was so new that 674 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 2: nobody that worked there knew how to use it, which 675 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 2: contributed to Yeah, and it contributed to a lot of 676 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 2: these problems. So then when all this stuff's going on, 677 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 2: it's nineteen eighty one, and then we fast forward to 678 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 2: March of nineteen eighty two, and by this point, the 679 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 2: La Times article comes out, and again the board is like, 680 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 2: we need to suspend you again, but this time we 681 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 2: really have proof that you did all these things, and 682 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 2: they did an investigation and ultimately he did end up 683 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,479 Speaker 2: getting fired. Yeah. 684 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting though that I think that 685 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: Frank Sinatra kind of like spearheaded that whole entire thing 686 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: because he was just like, I mean, that guy had 687 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: pull and ties to people and everything like that, and 688 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 1: I think between his complaint and them actually being able 689 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: to find all of these things that this guy was 690 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: screwing up, they they were just like not having it. 691 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 2: So I think all in all, even though he got fired, 692 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 2: a lot of his colleagues did really respect his work 693 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 2: and thought that he was a really good pathologist. But 694 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, you can't let things slip, 695 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 2: and you certainly can't lose evidence and let you know, 696 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 2: samples get cross contaminated, because that matters when it comes 697 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 2: to somebody going on trial or like in your case, 698 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,359 Speaker 2: him saying with Natalie Wood that she accidentally slipped when 699 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 2: they really don't have enough evidence to determine that. 700 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: Could you imagine I mean we're just talking about the 701 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 1: celebrity deaths right now, but could you imagine like the 702 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: real all of the real life people that died in 703 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: this time period in Los Angeles? Like I would if 704 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: that was my family, I'd be so skeptical because of 705 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: all the craziness that was going on there at the time, 706 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: and thinking that the guy in charge is just like 707 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 1: more concerned with being famous than actually taking care of 708 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: death and being you know, if you think about it, 709 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: like most of the time, you don't really know who 710 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 1: the medical examiner is anywhere because they're usually in a 711 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: basement doing autopsies. Right, They're not all celebrity people there. 712 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 2: The only two I can name off the top of 713 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 2: my head with us doing this amount of research is 714 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 2: this guy and doctor g medical examiner. Which is she 715 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 2: even considered a coroner? 716 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, she's a medical examiner, and it just the 717 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: word coroner is different throughout the country, coroner is is 718 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: typically a position that's elected, as opposed to a medical 719 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: examiner is appointed. But I believe in Los Angeles, I'm 720 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: not sure that that coroner is elected. It might be well, 721 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: I guess that board that what's his name Frank Sinatra 722 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: went to was the people that appoint the medical examiner. 723 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: So but yes, she's she's a forensic pathologist. That so, 724 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: yes she is. And she worked the famous the Kaylee 725 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: Anthony case in Florida. There. She she's awesome. I love 726 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 1: that lady. But like doctor Boden and stuff, but the 727 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: only well, doctor g had a TV show, so yeah, 728 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: between that and yeah, but but in general, like throughout 729 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: the country, you don't really know who these people were. 730 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: And I think it was determined that like, yes, he 731 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: definitely had developed an image of corner the Stars, and 732 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 1: they officially got rid of him at that point. I 733 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: think that you guys will really like this book. I mean, 734 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: if you are interested in what me and Maria had 735 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: been talking about, because there are other cases that they 736 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: that she goes more in depth with. Obviously, I don't know. 737 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: I think it sums up my theory of the VIP doctors. 738 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: Usually in the celebrity death dissections. We talk about in 739 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: the grosser room. The VIP doctors are the ones that 740 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: are taking care of the celebrities, but this time it's 741 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: a VIP corner, and we see that that doesn't go 742 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,720 Speaker 1: so well either when celebrities get different treatment than regular 743 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: people do. So I think it's just like a good 744 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: lesson for overall that you don't really want to have 745 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: VIP treatment when you die or you're sick. 746 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, But this book comes out in April twenty second, 747 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 2: so I think you guys will definitely be interested. 748 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder, 749 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a 750 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education. 751 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: I am not a doctor, and I have not diagnosed 752 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of 753 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 1: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social 754 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based 755 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,439 Speaker 1: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make 756 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:37,320 Speaker 1: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember 757 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed 758 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 1: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those 759 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,919 Speaker 1: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having 760 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a 761 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,360 Speaker 1: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent 762 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, you, 763 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, 764 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks