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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. Today is Saturday, so we have a

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Speaker 1: vault episode for you. This is going to be Sacred

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Speaker 1: Trees of the World that originally published at eleven fourteen,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. Let's jump right in.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 1: And today's episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

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Speaker 1: a travel episode. That's, of course a broad category that

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Speaker 1: we're sometimes asked to consider. And since we've already done

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Speaker 1: more specific episodes on say, the psychology of travel, like

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Speaker 1: why do we travel, what does the travel do to

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Speaker 1: the brain, and so forth, we decided to turn our

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Speaker 1: attention instead to topics that invited travel. You know that

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Speaker 1: maybe even sort of summoned an itinerary or a bucket

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Speaker 1: list in the mind of the listener. Certainly get in

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Speaker 1: touch with an actual travel agent or travel coordinator if

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Speaker 1: you needed book flights based on anything we discussed here.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, there are many reasons to travel,

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Speaker 1: to visit friends and family, to take in culture and cuisine,

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Speaker 1: to visit natural wonders, and of course, to experience various

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Speaker 1: ecosystems while we still can. And I was thinking about

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Speaker 1: all of this during recent travels with my family and

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Speaker 1: kind of landed on a focus for this episode. Sacred

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Speaker 1: trees of the world, often old and or ancient trees

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Speaker 1: that instantly set our minds and perhaps our spirits as well,

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Speaker 1: into motion. I don't know if you've had this experience, Joe,

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Speaker 1: when you've been around you know, big trees, old trees,

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Speaker 1: novel trees, and so forth.

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Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of trees. I can easily get

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Speaker 3: to thinking of trees as sacred just in their generic form.

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Speaker 3: Like a forest is a place that feels like a

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Speaker 3: church to me, you know. I like to be surrounded

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Speaker 3: by trees. There's a part of me that feels a

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Speaker 3: little I don't know. I get my hackles up a

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Speaker 3: bit when there are no trees around, when I'm just

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Speaker 3: in like an empty field. I don't know if that

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Speaker 3: bothers you in the same way it does bother me.

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Speaker 3: It really does, like I need some vertical things around me.

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Speaker 3: I assume that's a fairly common experience, but I don't know.

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Speaker 3: But I have respect for their power as well. I

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Speaker 3: don't remember if we ever talked about this on the show,

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Speaker 3: but you know, there was a week last summer, not

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Speaker 3: this year, but the year before where a huge old

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Speaker 3: tree in our neighbor's yard fell down, took out the

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Speaker 3: power lines, and it was like, you know it, it

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Speaker 3: was a long time coming back from that. There was

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Speaker 3: a large storm, and of course Atlanta has a lot

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Speaker 3: of trees in it, so you know, things were falling

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Speaker 3: down all over the place, many people affected. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: it just kind of reminds you that there are there

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Speaker 3: are these wooden gods all around you, these giant, giant

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Speaker 3: beings that are alt and going through life cycles of

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Speaker 3: their own. You don't always notice it, but some of

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Speaker 3: them are young and growing, and some of them are

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Speaker 3: old and ailing, and some of them are covered in parasites,

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Speaker 3: and others are you know, getting stronger by the day.

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Speaker 3: And there's a kind of plant drama that we miss

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Speaker 3: out on because we're not really attuned to its frequency.

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Speaker 3: It's happening usually on a time scale that we're not

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Speaker 3: very sensitive to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's this sense that they are divine beings.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to invoke their wrath, but also we

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Speaker 1: benefit from their shade and their comfort, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and they're just great to be around. We lost several

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Speaker 1: big trees in the immediate vicinity here, in part due

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Speaker 1: to the recent storms, but also I think kind of

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Speaker 1: the aftermath of those storms. I believe. I was looking

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Speaker 1: at an article in the AJAC having to do with, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, insurance companies becoming more strict about large trees

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Speaker 1: and overarching limbs and so forth for insurance policies on

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Speaker 1: homes and so At any rate, there are a number

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Speaker 1: of big trees that I'm just accustomed to seeing that

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Speaker 1: are no longer there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, when a big tree falls, when it falls naturally

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Speaker 3: or when it gets cut down, you know, just because

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Speaker 3: it's looming, I do feel that as a missing presence,

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Speaker 3: and you know, it's like somebody has gone out of

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Speaker 3: my life. You get used to the canopy and their presence.

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Speaker 3: It does change the landscape. So yeah, that kind of

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Speaker 3: thing actually does. It affects me a lot, like when

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Speaker 3: trees are gone. But to come to the idea of

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Speaker 3: sacred trees. When you suggested this as an episode topic,

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Speaker 3: I thought it was really cool, and I thought it

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Speaker 3: was also interesting how it can be taken a couple

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Speaker 3: of different ways, right, Because when you think of a

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Speaker 3: sacred tree, you could be thinking of a specific tree,

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Speaker 3: like maybe a really beautiful tree, or a really old tree,

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Speaker 3: a really giant tree, a specific tree or specific grove

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Speaker 3: of trees that people go to and maybe that specific

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Speaker 3: place has meaning to people. Or you could be thinking

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Speaker 3: about a kind of tree that has a kind of

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Speaker 3: sacred significance in say a culture or mythology.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, there are various ways to think about it.

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Speaker 1: And then we'll get into examples of how like the

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Speaker 1: sacred nature of a given variety of tree or maybe

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Speaker 1: even individual trees. You know, it can vary over time,

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Speaker 1: it can it can certainly wane, and then it has

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Speaker 1: to be relearned and so forth. So humans have a

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Speaker 1: long history of seeing the sacred in trees. Certainly tree

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Speaker 1: symbols go way back. We have various examples of the

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Speaker 1: likes of world trees bridging Earth to the cosmos and

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Speaker 1: so forth. So pretty much anywhere you go, especially if

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Speaker 1: there are large trees of some sort, there's there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be some sort of tradition, and so you really could

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Speaker 1: chart your travels based entirely on the big trees. To

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Speaker 1: be clear, this is not quite what we do, but

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Speaker 1: I now that I think back on it. Pretty much

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Speaker 1: anywhere we travel we often end up checking out really

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Speaker 1: cool trees, you know, like it's often on the itinerary.

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Speaker 1: If there's some sort of you know, nature based attraction,

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Speaker 1: there's a good chance they'll be an interesting tree. So

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Speaker 1: we have sought out trees in various travel destinations before.

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Speaker 1: So in this episode we're going to look at at

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Speaker 1: least a couple of examples of sacred trees of the world.

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Speaker 1: We are not going to cover all of them. That

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Speaker 1: would take far more than even a few episodes. But hey,

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Speaker 1: if listeners enjoy our treatment here today, this is something

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Speaker 1: we can perhaps come back to in the future. So

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Speaker 1: for our first destination, I want to bring you to

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Speaker 1: the western Sierra Nevada. This is in California here in

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Speaker 1: the United States, to see the giant Sequoia trees, also

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Speaker 1: known as the giant redwood. Specifically, the species we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here is Sequoiadendron gigantium, and there are two related

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Speaker 1: trees in the same subfan family, and I'll mention these

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Speaker 1: as well. I think as we receive the coast redwood

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Speaker 1: or coastal redwood or California redwood sequoia simper verins. These

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Speaker 1: are also giant trees. And then there's the don redwood

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Speaker 1: or meta sequoia. This is the shortest of the redwoods,

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Speaker 1: but I think still a big tree by most other measurements.

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Speaker 1: So again, in their natural habitat, you'll find the giant

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Speaker 1: sequoia on the western slopes of the Sierra Nevada Mountain

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Speaker 1: range of California. As their name implies, they are among

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Speaker 1: the largest trees in the world. There are several different

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Speaker 1: ways to decide on how the honors of giant tree

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Speaker 1: biggest tree are divvied out, but if you focus purely

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Speaker 1: on raw height, trunk volume, limb volume, or bark thickness

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Speaker 1: among currently living trees, the giant sequoia is absolutely have it.

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Speaker 1: Though to be clear, just over the last century, humans

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Speaker 1: have cut down some trees of various species that would

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Speaker 1: be considered the tallest today if they were still alive,

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Speaker 1: and another caveat if those historic measurements were accurate to

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Speaker 1: begin with.

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Speaker 3: Ah, okay, so some people in the past were like, Hey,

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Speaker 3: this might be the biggest tree ever, let's cut it

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Speaker 3: down to see.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's a long There are multiple examples of

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Speaker 1: that that going on, you know where it's a big tree.

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Speaker 1: Let's cut it down. We've got to We've gotta tell

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Speaker 1: the rest of the country about this. The way to

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Speaker 1: do that is to go ahead and cut it down

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Speaker 1: and get a nice big sample on it and send

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Speaker 1: it out. Let it travel around from city to city. Now,

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Speaker 1: according to the National Park Service, the two largest giant

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Speaker 1: sequoias in the world are the General Sherman Tree and

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Speaker 1: the General Grant Tree. These are the names obviously we

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Speaker 1: give the trees. They didn't they didn't choose to be

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Speaker 1: named after what are to them very recent human beings.

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Speaker 1: Both of these can be found in Sequoia and King's

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Speaker 1: Canyon National Parks. I had the chance to visit these

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Speaker 1: parks on a recent trip with my family who went

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Speaker 1: out to California. I got to experience these amazing organisms

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Speaker 1: up close or as close as you know you're allowed

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Speaker 1: to get to them. And as the National Park Service

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Speaker 1: points out, these are I mean, it's like this with

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Speaker 1: a lot of things in nature's This is the way

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Speaker 1: it is with say the Grand Canyon. You can look

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Speaker 1: at a picture, but it's another thing to experience it.

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Speaker 1: To be there and take in the vastness, the emptiness

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Speaker 1: of it is just an entirely different experience. And it's

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Speaker 1: absolutely the same thing with these massive giants sequoia trees.

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Speaker 1: You look at a picture and yeah, they look big,

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Speaker 1: but you're often seeing them next to other gigantic trees.

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Speaker 1: There'll be people in the shot as well, but you

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Speaker 1: can't always completely grasp how big they are. But when

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Speaker 1: you're there, there's just no denying it. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: is like this. We compare it to a cathedral, but

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Speaker 1: it's even grander than that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, as far as I know, I've never seen a

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Speaker 3: giant sequoia in person, but I have been to a

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Speaker 3: coastal redwood forest, so not exactly the same, but very similar. Ago,

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Speaker 3: my wife and I we were visiting family on a

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Speaker 3: trip to southwest Oregon, so we were in a fairly

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Speaker 3: secluded area around the Rogue River Siskyou National Forest in Oregon.

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Speaker 3: One day we just drove down over the state border

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Speaker 3: into northern California and spent the day walking around in

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Speaker 3: the redwood trees. And yeah, absolutely marvelous experience. It's hard

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Speaker 3: to know exactly how to describe it, I like your

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Speaker 3: comparison to a cathedral rob not just in the more

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Speaker 3: abstract sense that it feels sacred, but in kind of

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Speaker 3: specific sensory qualities. There's a sense in which you feel enclosed,

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Speaker 3: but enclosed in a kind of vast and powerful space,

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Speaker 3: not like a small room, but like a cathedral. You know,

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Speaker 3: there's a vaulted canopy over you, these trees going up

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Speaker 3: so high. There's a sense in which sound is kind

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Speaker 3: of changed in these forests. That also reminds me of

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Speaker 3: the well, I don't know here, probably less like the

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Speaker 3: sounds of a cathedral, which are a bit more echoey

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Speaker 3: with all the stone. I think there's more damping of

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Speaker 3: the sound in the forest, but still that there's something

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Speaker 3: in common there, kind of an ability to hear indistinct

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Speaker 3: murmuring all around you, you know, just this just this

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Speaker 3: kind of drone that lends itself well to achieving a

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Speaker 3: peaceful state of mind. Also smells, I remember thinking, you know,

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Speaker 3: there are smells of I guess just decomposing wood and

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Speaker 3: all the normal things of life going on in this forest.

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Speaker 3: That reminded me of the smells you might get in

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Speaker 3: a church or in a high church kind of cathedral,

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Speaker 3: like incense and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no burning incense around these trees, by the way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, these things are massive, like for example, the

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Speaker 1: largest giants sequoias are said to be as tall as

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Speaker 1: twenty six story buildings, and for to put that in,

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Speaker 1: compare that to an actual building. The historic flat Iron

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Speaker 1: Building in New York City is twenty two stories tall,

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Speaker 1: and unlike a skyscraper, these trees are alive and growing.

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Speaker 1: Giant Saccoia is, according to the NPS, produced roughly forty

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Speaker 1: cubic feet or one cubic meter of wood each year,

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Speaker 1: so they just continue to bulk up. And you know,

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Speaker 1: you can compare that to like how many trees worth

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Speaker 1: of wood it's growing per year. The General Sherman Tree

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Speaker 1: currently stands at two hundred and seventy four point nine

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Speaker 1: feet tall and has a ground circumference of one hundred

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Speaker 1: and two point six feet and a trunk volume of

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Speaker 1: fifty two five hundred and eight cubic feet. General Grant

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Speaker 1: is a little shorter but has a slightly larger ground circumference.

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Speaker 3: I wonder why they named the bigger one after Sherman

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Speaker 3: than the slightly smaller one after Grant. I guess Sherman

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Speaker 3: the man was I assumed taller than Grant, just imagining

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Speaker 3: from the way they look in pictures. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: never seen him side by side.

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Speaker 1: They neither could take this as a slide. These are

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Speaker 1: en trees.

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Speaker 3: I'm just saying Grant was his boss. They should have

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Speaker 3: made the bigger one Grant.

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Speaker 1: The thing is like, not only do they ar us

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Speaker 1: in space in size, but they also dwarf us in time.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's another reason that it's easy to

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Speaker 1: think of them in terms of the sacred. And these

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Speaker 1: are giants that are especially long lived. They are thought

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Speaker 1: to live more than three thousand years in some cases.

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Speaker 1: The Grizzly Giant tree, for example, this is one I

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Speaker 1: also got to see. This one is in Yosemite National Parks,

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Speaker 1: Mariposa Grove. It's one that has this enormously thick limb

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Speaker 1: us coming out from the side of it, like it

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Speaker 1: looks like the tree has developed a giant muscle arm

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Speaker 1: and is about to flex like it's just it's on

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Speaker 1: inspiring and a little frightening because it just doesn't it

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Speaker 1: doesn't look stable. But it's been obviously it's been up

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Speaker 1: there for a very long time. But this tree in

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Speaker 1: particular is thought to be between two thousand and three

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Speaker 1: thousand years old, according to the National Park Service. A

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen study put it at two nine and ninety

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Speaker 1: five years old.

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Speaker 3: That's funny precision. Shouldn't you just say three thousand?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know you cross the line at

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Speaker 1: that point, right, But I mean the exact estimated ages

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Speaker 1: of some of these trees has varied over time, as

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Speaker 1: you know. Sometimes it's been a lot greater and then

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Speaker 1: they pull back on that. But just assuming that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about two thousand, nine hundred and ninety five years old,

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Speaker 1: I mean, just think about that, this tree has potentially

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Speaker 1: lived since what nine to seventy BCE, a time when

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Speaker 1: pharaohs and Old Testament kings walk the earth, more than

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Speaker 1: nine centuries before the birth of Christ. Almost too millennia

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Speaker 1: before the earliest known first contact between Europeans and Native

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Speaker 1: North American peoples. You know, our lives, even the two

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Speaker 1: hundred and forty eight year history of the United States

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Speaker 1: is just a drop in the bucket compared to the

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Speaker 1: life span of one of these wooden Leviathans.

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Speaker 3: Makes you want to ask it for advice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't have any advice to give, like, but

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Speaker 1: you know, just keep growing. I guess it's its whole thing.

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Speaker 1: And they're pretty. But yeah, these are just such fascinating trees.

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Speaker 1: So we could go into great depth about them here,

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Speaker 1: but I'm just gonna hit some of the high points.

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Speaker 1: One of the big ones, of course, is they drop

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Speaker 1: their lower branches as they grow, and this helps to

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Speaker 1: afford them resistance against forest fires. And indeed, and I

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Speaker 1: believe we've probably discussed this on the show before, wildfires

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Speaker 1: are part of their life cycle. Their seed strategy evolved

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Speaker 1: alongside periodic fires, so their closed cones hold on to

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Speaker 1: their seeds for as much as twenty years, opening up

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Speaker 1: when there's that hot, dry air outside brought on by wildfires.

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Speaker 1: This allows the seeds to pop out and take advantage

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Speaker 1: of those post fire soils and the you know, the

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Speaker 1: openness of the post fire environment. Okay, And so they're

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Speaker 1: impressive survivors on their own without humans protecting them or

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Speaker 1: interfering with them. They got by just fine, and thus

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Speaker 1: far they've also survived the dangers of human logging and

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Speaker 1: other human cause problems in the environment. Part of this

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Speaker 1: time to understand is because the giants Sequoia two didn't

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Speaker 1: have as what was considered as high a quality of

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Speaker 1: wood as some of the competing giants, which maybe helped

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Speaker 1: prevent us from cutting them all down, but they remain

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Speaker 1: endangered and protected to this day. Getting into the sacredness

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Speaker 1: of it, you know, modern interlopers into these environments certainly

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Speaker 1: would would would connect with the with the sacredness of them.

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Speaker 1: There's a sacredness that kind of builds up. So Europeans

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Speaker 1: initially began to encounter these trees, and you know, individuals

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Speaker 1: may have thought they looked impressive or you know, found

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Speaker 1: something sacred in them, but a lot of people just

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Speaker 1: saw them as resources to be plundered. And then that

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Speaker 1: begins to change over time. But you know, gets to

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Speaker 1: the point where the General Grant Tree, for example, was

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Speaker 1: dubbed the nation's Christmas Tree in nineteen twenty six, and

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Speaker 1: various dedications and proclamations have taken place in the presence

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Speaker 1: of these trees, as if you know, it is like

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Speaker 1: sacred American ground upon which you know one should be present,

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Speaker 1: you know, where one might make something you know, official,

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Speaker 1: and so forth, as if before the eyes of God

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Speaker 1: or something. In fact, if you're looking for an example

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Speaker 1: of like bipartisan unity in American politics, at least non

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Speaker 1: contemporary politics, you can look to multiple examples of past

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Speaker 1: US presidents at the very least expressing admiration for the

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Speaker 1: great trees, which I guess, you know, if I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be cynical as far as politics go, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty it's a pretty safe bet to be like

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Speaker 1: pro giant sequoia after a point, right, it would be

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Speaker 1: a weird hill to die upon otherwise, And so you

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Speaker 1: have passed US presidents from both major parties that have

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Speaker 1: expanded protection for giant sequoias. So I mean, that's pretty cool,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'll take that. Also worth noting that in

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Speaker 1: May of nineteen forty five, more than five hundred United

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Speaker 1: Nations delegates attended the first UN Peace Conference in San Francisco,

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Speaker 1: and they gathered at Newer Woods National Monument, home to

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Speaker 1: a number of these sequoia simper Vans or coastal redwoods

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Speaker 1: that we mentioned earlier, as well as some pretty great

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Speaker 1: banana slugs. Like go for the trees, but stay for

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Speaker 1: the banana slugs, and you know, the world.

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Speaker 3: Peace one of my good family friends was a camp

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Speaker 3: counselor somewhere out there, and it's like it was like

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Speaker 3: a nature camp, and apparently they had some great songs

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Speaker 3: about banana slugs the kids liked.

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Speaker 1: They're very impressive. Well, we took my son out there

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Speaker 1: when he was a lot younger, and he really barely

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Speaker 1: cared about the trees, but he was excited to see

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Speaker 1: the bananas slugs. And we got there early in the morning,

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Speaker 1: and at first we did not see any banana slugs,

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Speaker 1: and he was about to become very upset at having

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Speaker 1: not seen them, and then luckily a park ranger showed

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Speaker 1: us one, and then we were like, oh, okay, all

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Speaker 1: is saved.

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Speaker 3: I think the thing is you hear banana slug and

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Speaker 3: you think it's just a name until you see it.

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Speaker 3: You don't realize how much like a banana it's gonna look.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, Now, before the coming of the Europeans, the

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Speaker 1: Treaties were already held in high, even sacred regard, though

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Speaker 1: they were not called Sequoias. The Europeans selected names seemingly

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Speaker 1: derives from that of Cherokee polymath Sequoia, who live seventeen

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Speaker 1: sixty seven through eighteen forty three, though this connection is

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Speaker 1: sometimes contested. At any rate, the situation may be much

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Speaker 1: like the name Yosemite itself, which is derived from actual

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Speaker 1: names in the Miwok languages, but itself, the word Yosemite

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Speaker 1: doesn't really mean much. It's just like a composite word. Now,

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Speaker 1: who were the Miwok peoples. They were one of the

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Speaker 1: native inhabitants of what is now northern California, and they

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Speaker 1: practiced complex landscape and ecosystem management strategies to help ensure

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Speaker 1: the dominance for them key acorn producing trees. This is

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Speaker 1: something you can learn about if you visit Yosemite. They

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Speaker 1: have a lot of really fascinating stuff about how they

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Speaker 1: would gather these acorns, process them, save them. It was

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Speaker 1: a vital resource for them, and they would do things

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Speaker 1: like engage in intentional burns to manage both vegetation and game,

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Speaker 1: ensuring the acorns, but also this would tie into the

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Speaker 1: management of game that they would hunt as well. And

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Speaker 1: they reportedly, and this reporting tends to come from Europeans

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Speaker 1: that were at the time at least looking to exploit

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Speaker 1: exotic romance anticism about Yosemite. They would say that the

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Speaker 1: native peoples knew the giant sequoias as Wawona. Wawona is

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Speaker 1: also the name of an historic hotel in Yosemite One.

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Speaker 1: I've stayed at it a couple of times. It's a

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Speaker 1: very interesting historic landmark. But as to what Wowona actually

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Speaker 1: meant like the do you see accounts that it is

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Speaker 1: referring to the trees. There are also accounts that it

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Speaker 1: is referring to owls or the sound the hoot of

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Speaker 1: an owl as it is heard passing through a grove

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Speaker 1: of these trees. And it does seem like there is

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Speaker 1: some sort of connection between the owls and the great trees.

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Speaker 1: They have a shared sacredness in the tradition, with the

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Speaker 1: owl possibly serving as like a spirit guardian of the

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Speaker 1: great trees. So I was looking to read more about this,

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Speaker 1: so I turned to a book titled King Sequoia, The

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Speaker 1: Tree That Inspired a nation created international park System and

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Speaker 1: Changed the way we think about nature by William C. Tweed.

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Speaker 1: This is a really interesting book. I definitely recommend this

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Speaker 1: for anyone out there who wants a deeper dive into

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Speaker 1: the history of this tree and how, and as the

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Speaker 1: title indicates, the role it has played and sort of

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Speaker 1: the changing attitude we've had towards the natural world in

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Speaker 1: the United States. But he points out that prior to

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Speaker 1: the Gold Rush of the eighteen forties in the eighteen fifties,

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Speaker 1: the domains of the Great Trees were largely left alone

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Speaker 1: by Europeans, including during the Spanish and Mexican period preceding

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Speaker 1: the gold Rush. These areas have been mostly left alone

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Speaker 1: to the native inhabitants of those regions. But then when

399
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Speaker 1: the gold rush occurs, people come out looking for the gold,

400
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Speaker 1: tearing up the land for the gold, and of course

401
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Speaker 1: ultimately decimating indigenous populations and driving them from their lands.

402
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Speaker 1: The author here points out that nearly all of California's

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Speaker 1: native groups, including the Miwok, of course, understood the importance

404
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Speaker 1: of fire to the ecosystem as we mentioned earlier, and

405
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Speaker 1: used it to manage vegetation and game. And this is

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Speaker 1: in resting in that this is a lesson that Europeans

407
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 1: and Americans would be very slow to realize, to realize that, yes,

408
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Speaker 1: you can't just prevent all wildfires. You have to, of

409
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: course engage in strategic, small scale burns, in part because

410
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Speaker 1: this is what the natural environment is accustomed to. Tweed

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Speaker 1: also goes into detail about the many steps that were

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Speaker 1: involved in the near worship of these great trees in

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Speaker 1: the early twentieth century in America. You know, it was

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Speaker 1: very much a transition from past attitudes that against all

415
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Speaker 1: these trees as mere resources to plunder like everything else,

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Speaker 1: to this growing sense that these trees are special. And

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Speaker 1: then that idea seems to sort of it's sort of like,

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Speaker 1: once you pull on it, you begin to pull up

419
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Speaker 1: these other ideas and you realize, oh, well, maybe it's

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Speaker 1: not just the trees that are sacred, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: the areas around the trees. Maybe it's the whole ecosystem

422
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Speaker 1: that the trees are a part of. Maybe it's the

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Speaker 1: natural world that is important here and should be conserved. However,

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Speaker 1: he points out that sadly, in terms of what the

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Speaker 1: indigenous people thought specifically about these trees, he said that

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Speaker 1: we've lost quote most of the experiences, tales, and wisdom

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Speaker 1: of the first peoples to have walked in the shadows

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00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: and sunlit reflections of these mountain forests. But he still

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Speaker 1: points out that from what we do know, from what

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Speaker 1: was passed down and remembered, quote, they perceived the trees

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Speaker 1: as they did everything else. That surrounded them as part

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Speaker 1: of a complex web of existence that had spiritual value

433
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: embedded in every element. And of course, if the Miwok

434
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: saw the trees as part of a grander world of

435
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: interconnected spirits in nature, then you know, perhaps we can

436
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: see the giant sequoias and their ken as like the

437
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: prime deities that again steadily helped to reveal the sacred

438
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: aspects of nature to a wider American public. You know,

439
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: that leads you know, early conservationists like John Muor himself

440
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: to refer to the trees as the noblest of the

441
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: noble race and noblest of God's trees. So I left

442
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: this research, you know, wanting to know more about how

443
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: indigenous people specifically thought about the great Sequoias, the giant Sequoias.

444
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 1: It sounds like a lot of those traditions have been lost,

445
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: but it is interesting how though those traditions were decimated

446
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: and lost, there is this sense of sort of like

447
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: rediscovering them in the history of conservationists in America, realizing

448
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: that the trees should be protected and should be conserved.

449
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: But again that's it's very much a transition. There's certainly

450
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: a phase in between there where we have a lot

451
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,479
Speaker 1: of the cutting down of these trees or the drilling

452
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: of great holes in them so you can drive an

453
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 1: automobile through them. And I guess, you know, part of

454
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: that is like we've got to show people how big

455
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: these are. Let's put a car next to it. No,

456
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 1: let's drive a car through it, you know, without fully

457
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 1: realizing the you know, how destructive that is.

458
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 3: I was just reminded of seeing that photo when you

459
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 3: said it. I don't know how common that is. Is

460
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 3: that somethingime that happened to a bunch of trees, or

461
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,719
Speaker 3: is it just like that one famous one, the driving

462
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 3: the car through I.

463
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: Mean, oh, I mean there have been a couple of

464
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: different examples of this. National Park Service actually has a

465
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: has a page about this you can look up called

466
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: the Myth of the Tree you Can Drive Through and

467
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: it covers like some of a couple of the you know,

468
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: actual examples of trees that had been tunneled. One of

469
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: the ones that they have pictured in this article is

470
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: in the Suqua National Park and it's a tree that

471
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 1: had already fallen and then they had dug out an

472
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: area to drive a tree through. But unfortunately, like live

473
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: trees were also tunneled. Yeah, the Wawona tree is one

474
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: that they write in this article stood for eighty eight summers,

475
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: but then eventually it fell during a severe winter between

476
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight and nineteen sixty nine. And part of this,

477
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: of course, is that when you tunnel a tree, you

478
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: weaken the tree. So there you go. Yeah, So it's

479
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: not something that is currently done. Now. I want to

480
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: add an important note on the Miwok people. We've been

481
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: speaking about them in an historic context here, who they

482
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 1: were when Europeans first encountered them, and what they lost

483
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: in terms of life, culture and ancestral land because of

484
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: that contact. But it's important to stress that the Miwook

485
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: did not vanish, and they the indigenous people of central California,

486
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: still largely reside there on five rancherias under tribal leadership,

487
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: as well as elsewhere in California. Their access to ancestral

488
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: lands in Yosemite, i'm to understand, has improved quite a

489
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: bit in recent years, though there's obviously a long way

490
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: to go there. So those are the giants sequoias. So

491
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: we have visited California. Where are we off to next?

492
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 3: Joe, Well, the tree I wanted to talk about. Is

493
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 3: is one I've never seen in person before, but I

494
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 3: think probably you have because you've been to the place

495
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 3: it grows. So this is a tree that is found

496
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 3: in Hawaii, and for centuries it has been an important

497
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 3: part of Hawaiian culture, both in a practical sense as

498
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 3: a source of wood used to make a variety of objects,

499
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 3: but then also in a sacred sense for its role

500
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: in Hawaiian religion and mythology. This tree is known as

501
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 3: the Ohea lahua. The scientific nomenclature is Metrocederos polymorpha. So

502
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 3: I was going to start by trying to describe what

503
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 3: an ohea lahua looks like, but that's a kind of

504
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: complicated proposition because the species name, again is polymorpha, which

505
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 3: means many forms or many shapes, and that is quite

506
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 3: appropriate to describe this plant, which, depending on circumstances, can

507
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 3: change the color of its flowers that can be cherry

508
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 3: red that's the most common version you'll see, but also

509
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: pink or even lemon yellow. It can change the size

510
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: and shape of its leaves, and it can vary drastically

511
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: in its overall size and growth pattern. So sometimes the

512
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 3: ohie la hua is a small shrub you might see

513
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 3: projecting from a fresh black lava field, or sometimes it

514
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 3: is a tree more than fifty feet tall in a

515
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 3: dense forest of many of the same tree, so it

516
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 3: takes many forms. It can be a shrub, can be

517
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 3: a tree, and in its tree form, this species is

518
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 3: the most abundant of Hawaii's native trees. Going back centuries,

519
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 3: the wood of the Oheielahua has been used by the

520
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 3: people of Hawaii, especially for sacred and religious purposes. It's

521
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 3: been used to make tools like wooden beaters that are

522
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 3: used for producing kappa, a traditional textile of Hawaii, but

523
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 3: it's also been used to make things like statues for

524
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 3: religious purposes, representations of gods and other spiritual beings. So

525
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 3: Rabbi included some pictures for you to look at here

526
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 3: in the outline. One thing that's very notable about the

527
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 3: blossoms of the ohee lahua is that they they have

528
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 3: these many projecting stamens, so they can look kind of

529
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 3: like a sea anemone.

530
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, the the I do remember these these are

531
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: quite beautiful. And then you also share some images of

532
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: the full sized trees that are kind of I guess

533
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: you might describe these as kind of like veining. There's

534
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: a sense of like veining upward, or it's almost like

535
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: the shape of roots growing into the sky. I don't know.

536
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: This feels insufficient, but it's one of the one of

537
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: the aspects of the forest of why that that certainly

538
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: resonated with me a lot when I was there, be it,

539
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: you know, in the botanical garden situation, or just driving,

540
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: you know, across the islands, you just see these beautiful

541
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: trees and they're just like they're unlike anything I'm accustomed

542
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: to seeing back home. Obviously.

543
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny because in a couple of the myths

544
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 3: I was reading that incorporate this tree, the tree is

545
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 3: described in some sense as like gnar oled or ugly,

546
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 3: but in other cases it's regarded specifically for its beauty,

547
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 3: and certainly the blossoms are always thought of as particularly beautiful.

548
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 3: And I guess those two different ways of describing it

549
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 3: come together in one of the last myths I'm gonna

550
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 3: get to in this section. But so, yeah, you can

551
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: see a diversity of forms if you look up images again,

552
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 3: it's the Ohea Lehua. There's some unusual characters in the

553
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 3: Anglicized version of the name, but I think if you

554
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: just type in O h i A l e h

555
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 3: u A you can find it. But anyway, these forms

556
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: include full sized trees with woody trunks, and also just

557
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: these particularly lovely red blossomed shrubs that you see growing

558
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 3: up from cracks in new volcanic rock, sometimes by themselves.

559
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 3: They're known for beings among the first plants to sort

560
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 3: of fill in and colonize an area that has newly

561
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 3: been paved over by a volcanic eruption.

562
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: And that's always picturesque. It's like the hang in there

563
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: baby signed with the cat, you know. It's like like,

564
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: look at this, Even in the midst of all of

565
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: this volcanic desolation, there's re growth, Like this is a

566
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: cycle we're witnessing here.

567
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I was reading in multiple sources that the

568
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 3: Ohee lahua is a type of sacred tree within Hawaiian tradition.

569
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 3: But what was interesting to me the more I got

570
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 3: into it was the diversity of ways that this sacred

571
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 3: status was defined. That there are so many different connection

572
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 3: points between this species of tree and traditional stories and

573
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 3: beliefs of the Hawaiian people. For example, gods and spiritual

574
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 3: beings embodied by or represented by the tree. This is

575
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 3: not a case where you will get one clear and

576
00:32:54,720 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 3: unique association between one deity and one plant species. Instead,

577
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: I've found so many stories in which this tree is

578
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 3: the embodiment of, or is associated with, so many different

579
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 3: named spiritual beings in Hawaiian religion. So I just want

580
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 3: to list some of the things I've come across to

581
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 3: give a sense of this diversity. One thing is I

582
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 3: was listening to a video interview with a scholar, a

583
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: professor named Kalna Silva, who is at the University of

584
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 3: Hawaii Hilo, who specializes in Hawaiian language and history, and

585
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 3: he says that the ohia Lehua is what he calls

586
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 3: the physical manifestation of a couple of divine figures he

587
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: names he Iyaka and Laka. So I went looking for

588
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 3: more on these two connections. First of all, Laka is

589
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 3: a name referring actually to multiple figures within Hawaiian religion.

590
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 3: One is a goddess of the growing forest as well

591
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 3: as of hula dancing, and another is a member of

592
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: the assemblage of cou gods ka you gods, which I'll

593
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 3: say more about in a minute. But this Laca god

594
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 3: is also associated with hula dancing. So both of these

595
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 3: associated with hula dancing, which you might have some awareness

596
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 3: of as a form of dance, but it's not just

597
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 3: a form of dance. One thing that's important to understand

598
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 3: about hula is that it is narrative in nature, So

599
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 3: it's a dance that tells stories about Hawaiian history and

600
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 3: mythology and so forth. The other entity that Silva mentions

601
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 3: as being embodied in the tree is he Iyaka, who

602
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 3: is an interesting figure, the daughter of the goddess Halmea

603
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 3: and the god Kane, and also the younger sister of

604
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 3: the volcano goddess Pele. So there is a famous story

605
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 3: about the two sisters Pele and he Iyaka, which exists

606
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 3: in apparently a lot of different forms. This will sort

607
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 3: of be a theme today, many different forms, but I'll

608
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 3: give an abridged summer of one form of the story.

609
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 3: This form is hosted on the National Parks page for

610
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 3: Hawaii Volcano's National Park. It starts off with Pele. She

611
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 3: lives up on the volcanic mountain of Kilauea, and once

612
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 3: Pele had a lover named Lohiao who lived on a

613
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 3: different island from her, on the island of Kawaii, Pele

614
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 3: wanted to see her lover, but he was so far away,

615
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: so she asked her sisters to go to the other

616
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 3: island and bring him back to her, and only her

617
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 3: youngest sister, he Iyaka, agreed, and while he Iyaka is

618
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 3: away on this mission, Pele promised that she would take

619
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 3: good care of what he Iyaka cared about the most,

620
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 3: which was a sacred grove of ohea trees and of

621
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,399
Speaker 3: he Iyaka's best friend Apoe. Unfortunately, when he Iyaka got

622
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 3: to the other island, she discovered that Pele's lover, Lohiao,

623
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 3: had died, so he Iyaka has to bring him back

624
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: from the dead, which was no easy job. She has

625
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 3: to go chasing after his spirit which has left his body,

626
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 3: but she catches it, brings it back, and she's able

627
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: to resurrect him. He Eyaka and the now revived Lohio

628
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 3: make the journey back to Pele's island, but with some

629
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 3: stops along the way, in which he Iaka has to

630
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 3: defend against this guy being tempted to betray Pele with

631
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 3: another woman. There's like a beautiful queen who has some

632
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 3: history with lohio and he Iyaka has to win some

633
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 3: kind of game to prevent him from from I think

634
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 3: the prize that she would that the Queen would get

635
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 3: if she won is that Lohiao would have to stay

636
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,479
Speaker 3: with her for a night, so he Iyaka is really

637
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 3: going above and beyond. She raises this guy from the dead,

638
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 3: keeps him loyal to the volcano goddess, but Pele unfortunately

639
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 3: gets paranoid and impatient her sister has not returned, so

640
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 3: she gets angry and she burns down he Iyaka's precious

641
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,240
Speaker 3: Ohea trees, and then she also covers he Iyaka's friend

642
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 3: Hapoe with molten lava, so she's very mad. This in

643
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 3: turn makes he Iaka furious, so she and Lohioo go

644
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 3: to Pele's volcano crater to face off against her, and

645
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 3: there is a battle involving multiple parties and incantations and sorcery.

646
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 3: Pele tries to compel some of her other relatives to

647
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 3: attack them and to kill Lohiao, but they sort of hesitate,

648
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 3: and in the end, Pele herself kills her lover lohio

649
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 3: With out of rage, and then in revenge for this,

650
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 3: he Iyaka she plans to destroy Pele. Her plan is

651
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 3: she's going to break through the crust of the earth,

652
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 3: flood the volcano with water and snuff it out. But

653
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 3: then at the last moment she relents and she does

654
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: not extinguish her sister's fires with the water from below,

655
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 3: and they make up and they get over their differences.

656
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 3: But in the story you can see he Iyaka, this

657
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 3: powerful divine heroine who has all these you know, she

658
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 3: has magical powers. She can break through the earth to

659
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 3: summon waters, she can she can sort of like see

660
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 3: things from afar like, she can sort of do everything.

661
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 3: And the thing she really loves, things she cares about

662
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 3: the most apart from her friend, is this grove of

663
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 3: the ohee Lahua trees. Now, I was reading in another source,

664
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 3: according to a scholar named Beatrice Kraus in a book

665
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 3: called Plants in Hawaiian Culture from University of Hawaii Press.

666
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 3: This is the twenty twenty one edition of the book.

667
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 3: The Oheelahua tree is one, according to this book, one

668
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 3: of the natural forms taken by Ku, who is one

669
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 3: of the four major gods of Hawaiian religion. Ku, in

670
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 3: his many manifestations, is a male god of war and politics,

671
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 3: known as the snatcher of land, but also represents farming

672
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 3: and fishing and forests and a number of different things.

673
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 3: So Ku is known to take a many animal shapes,

674
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 3: including the Hawaiian hawk and the shape of a shark,

675
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 3: but also plant forms, notably the Ohee Lahua tree. And

676
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 3: so I was reading more about this in another book,

677
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 3: a book called Hawaiian Mythology by Martha Warren Beckwith. This

678
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 3: was University of Hawaii Press. This is a much older book,

679
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 3: but this was the twenty twenty one edition of it.

680
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,280
Speaker 3: And in this book she talks about how the Ohee

681
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 3: Lahua tree form of Coup is one of what she

682
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 3: calls the Coup gods, which could be interpreted either as

683
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 3: sort of subordinate gods who serve under Coup and are

684
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 3: worshiped under his auspices, or derivative manifestations of Cou himself.

685
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 3: And many of these are, in her words quote, functional

686
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 3: gods of the forest or sea upon whom depended success

687
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 3: in some special craft. So there are a number of

688
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 3: examples listed in this text. Beckwith identifies a god named

689
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 3: kuk Ohilaka as an example. Here, one of the many

690
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 3: gods who was worshiped, for example, by canoe builders for

691
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 3: playing some role in the construction of a canoe. In

692
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 3: this case, he was, for one thing, a god of

693
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 3: rain in the forest, but also the god embodied in

694
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 3: the wood of the Oheelahua tree, which was one of

695
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 3: the sources of hard hardwood building material available in the

696
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 3: upland forest. Also you can hear the name Laca Inku Oheelaka.

697
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 3: This is the male god Laka, which was one of

698
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 3: the entities I mentioned earlier as a patron of the

699
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 3: hula dance art form in which history and important stories

700
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: were stored and then expressed. Now Beckwe in her text

701
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 3: mentions a really interesting story connecting this Laca, this version

702
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 3: of the coup god Laka, to a particular cave in

703
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 3: Hawaii and to the Ohelahua tree. So she says that

704
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 3: there's a particular cave in Hawaii where there grows a

705
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 3: specific tree of this species, and that tree is the

706
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 3: preserved body of Laka. Several things are said about this tree.

707
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 3: One is that it only ever has two blossoms at

708
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 3: a time, and the other is that if you snap

709
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 3: a branch off of it, blood will flow from the

710
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 3: wood and then Beckwick goes on to tell the story

711
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 3: of the tree. So the set up here is that

712
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 3: I believe it's that Laka and his sister Kawa come

713
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 3: to Hawaii to live with their spouses, Laka and his

714
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 3: wife kaya Au and Kawa with her husband in the

715
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 3: uplands of the island. So here I'm going to read

716
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 3: from beckwith quote when the sister brings vegetable food from

717
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 3: her garden to her brother at the sea, her stingy

718
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 3: sister in law pretends that they have no fish and

719
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 3: gives her nothing but seaweed to take home as a relish.

720
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 3: In despair at this treatment, Kawa transforms her husband and

721
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 3: children into rats, and herself into a spring of water.

722
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 3: It comes to her brother and tells him of her fate.

723
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 3: He visits the uplands, recognizes the spot as she is

724
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 3: directed in the dream, and plunging into the spring is

725
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 3: himself transformed into the Lahua tree which we see today.

726
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: Oh wow, But.

727
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 3: It doesn't stop there. I was talking about the god

728
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 3: coup earlier. Ku himself is said to be the husband

729
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 3: of the goddess Heina, and here this can also be

730
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 3: confusing because there are apparently multiple divine figures referred to

731
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 3: as Hena, but this is one of them, and Ku

732
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 3: is the husband of the Heinah, who is associated with

733
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 3: the ocean, the moon, and with female female fertility and motherhood. Now,

734
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 3: Beckwith's book also lists the goddess Hena as a spiritual

735
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 3: being embodied by the same tree, in this case as

736
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 3: Hina ulu Ohea, meaning Heina the growing Ohea tree. So

737
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: this version of Heina plays an important role in the

738
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 3: genealogies of Hawaiian gods as a m ancestor and protector

739
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 3: of other important characters who figure into various stories. But

740
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 3: then beck With writes quote to both God and goddess,

741
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 3: the flowering Ohea is sacred, and no one on a

742
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 3: visit to the volcano will venture to break the red

743
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 3: flowers for a wreath or pluck leaves or branches on

744
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 3: the way thither. Only on return, with proper invocations may

745
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 3: the flowers be gathered. A rainstorm is the least of

746
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 3: the unpleasant results that may follow tampering with the sacred

747
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 3: Lehua blossoms. And then connecting to that, there's one more

748
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 3: story that's sort of along the same lines. I've seen

749
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: this repeated in several places once again. This involves the

750
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 3: fire and volcano goddess Pele as a jealous lover. So

751
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 3: in this story, there's a gorgeous guy, a beautiful dude

752
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,399
Speaker 3: named Ohea. He's unbelievably good looking, and Pele falls in

753
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 3: love with him, but he only has eyes for a

754
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 3: different woman named Lahua. So when Pele's affections are spurned,

755
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 3: she reacts with envious rage, and she transforms Ohea into

756
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 3: a gnarled tree, an ugly tree with twisted branches. And

757
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 3: so the woman Lahua mourns the loss of her lover.

758
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 3: He's been turned into a tree now, but the other

759
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 3: gods take pity on her and they use their power

760
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 3: to help sort of make things right, not fully, but

761
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 3: they allow her to join him in form. So Lahua

762
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 3: becomes the beautiful blossom that grows on ohea branches. This

763
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 3: way they can be together for all time. But as

764
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 3: one possible consequence of this story, if you pick the

765
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 3: flower from the tree, you tear the lovers apart again,

766
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 3: and then the tears of Lahua and Ohea will fall

767
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 3: as rain.

768
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

769
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 3: Now I mentioned that these trees are known for having hard,

770
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,280
Speaker 3: sturdy wood and even in their smaller shrub forms. They're

771
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 3: known for a you know, for flowing into apparently inhospitable environments.

772
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 3: You know, there'll be some of the first plants growing

773
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 3: out of the cracks in fresh volcanic rock after interruption.

774
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,240
Speaker 3: So that might kind of give the impression that these

775
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 3: plants are invincible, but they are not invincible. In fact, currently,

776
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 3: ohee lehua are threatened by a widespread fungal disease. The

777
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 3: phenomenon has been known as rapid ohea death or ro D,

778
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 3: so named because it can appear that something happens to

779
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 3: these trees and kills them very fast and like a

780
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 3: matter of days. According to once overst I was looking at,

781
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 3: this is caused by a couple of species of fungus

782
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 3: which are in the genus Serato cistus. These fungi can

783
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 3: harm the tree greatly, and it's thought that they harm

784
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 3: the tree by stopping up the tree's vascular system. So

785
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 3: like you know this, this tree has hardy roots that

786
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 3: can reach down into you know, the cracks and rocks

787
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 3: and so forth, and can access water wherever it needs to.

788
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 3: But this plugs up the vascular system, so the water

789
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 3: from the roots can't get up to the canopy, can't

790
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 3: get up to the leaves and the tops of the trees,

791
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 3: which of course is going to first turn them brown

792
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 3: and kill the leaves and then ultimately kills the whole plant.

793
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 3: And so there are conservation efforts ongoing to try to

794
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 3: understand this threat and counteract it. But this is something

795
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 3: that that conservationists and also just people to whom the

796
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 3: Ohea Lhua has great cultural and religious significance, are very

797
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 3: aware of and having to deal with.

798
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 1: It's interesting you see this in various examples. You see

799
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: this with the great sequoias as well. You know, we

800
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: look at a tree and it doesn't even have to

801
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: be a giant tree. You know, they're all they're often

802
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: pretty big, they're often bigger than us. But you look

803
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: at a tree and you can often think that by

804
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: virtue of its size, by virtue of the pace of

805
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: its existence, we think of them as being sometimes more

806
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: rugged than they actually are. We don't think that human

807
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: activities can harm them, can interfere them, so we do

808
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: things like, you know, carve our initials into them, or

809
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: tunnel holes through them for novelty automobile photographs and things

810
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 1: like that, when in reality you know they are often

811
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: they're often very sensitive to their environment, and sometimes it

812
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 1: comes down to details like for instance, I didn't mention

813
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 1: that the sequoia tree has you know, reasonably shallow root systems,

814
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: and that's one of the reasons that when you're around them,

815
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 1: there's a lot of emphasis given on staying on the

816
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: path and not you know, walking up close to them,

817
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: because you could damage these roots. Like the thing that is,

818
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: you know, ancient and rough and tumble, and you know,

819
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: we compare them to to giants and grizzly bears. You

820
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: know that there they are, in their own way, fragile,

821
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: and you know we can do great harm to them.

822
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: We can do great arm to the environment, and we

823
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: have to respect it and care for it.

824
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 3: Trees like us are both tough and fragile, and you

825
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 3: have to understand the ways in which we are both.

826
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: But I love these these Hawaiian stories. I love these

827
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: stories of transformation into trees. This is something you see

828
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: echoes of in other traditions as well, sometimes you know,

829
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: for more tragic effects, sometimes for haunting effect. But I imagine

830
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: that's probably one of the key mythological tropes. Like you

831
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:28,760
Speaker 1: have world trees and you also have transformation into trees,

832
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: people and gods and demi gods becoming the tree, and

833
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: I guess maybe you see combinations of the two as well.

834
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, what do you think did we cover all of

835
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 3: the sacred trees in the world?

836
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: Now we left a few off. Sadly, yes, we only

837
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: covered two. Fortunately they I think they're connected essentially by

838
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: a direct flight from San Francisco to Hawaii. So if

839
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: you want to turn this into a travel itinerary, this

840
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: one's an easy one. But yes, obviously there are a

841
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: number of sacred trees we didn't get to. I originally

842
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 1: was going to talk about the body tree the sacred

843
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: fig a bit in this episode, but obviously we ran

844
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 1: out of time. So you know, consider this an unofficial

845
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: part one. If you want to hear more about sacred

846
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 1: trees in the world, let us know and we'll come

847
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: back with another episode at some point in the future

848
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: talk about the body tree and who knows what else.

849
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 1: There are a number of great ones in terms of

850
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 1: just big, impressive trees, but also trees that have various

851
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 1: roles within a given culture.

852
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are so many. We could do a ten

853
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 3: part series on this, and it often does get surprisingly

854
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 3: interesting at how like the botany interacts with the legend

855
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 3: and mythology.

856
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, all right, so we'll go ahead and close

857
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: this one out. But yeah, let us know if you'd

858
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: like to hear more. If you want to hear us

859
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: speak for the trees some more, we can do so

860
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Speaker 1: in the future. In the meantime, we'll just remind you

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Speaker 1: that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science

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00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 1: and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

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00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: On Fridays, we set aside most serious concerners, just talk

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Speaker 1: about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. And let's

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Speaker 1: see any other thing we need to mention here. Oh,

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Speaker 1: if you're on the Instagrams and you wish to follow

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Speaker 1: us STBYM podcast, that's where you'll find us. Keep up

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Speaker 1: with some of the episodes coming out. And we haven't

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Speaker 1: mentioned this a lot recently, but hey, rate and review

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Speaker 1: if you have the power to do so. Wherever you

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00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: listen to us, give us a nice star rating that

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00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: helps you know, keep things nice and fresh. It's like

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00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: it's like putting some fresh flowers in the room, just

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00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: freshen things up nicely. And so we do ask you

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00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: to remember to do that. If you have it all righty.

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Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

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Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

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00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

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00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,919
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

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00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

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Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

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Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows

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Speaker 2: name