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Speaker 1: Cool Zone media. In this life, you get so few

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Speaker 1: perfect moments. Right. There's the day you get your eighth

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Speaker 1: grade school picture back, and the most beautiful girl in class,

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Speaker 1: who lives down the street from you and was a

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Speaker 1: fucking hockey player, says, nice picture, Jamie. There's a day

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Speaker 1: in Sweden with an ex boyfriend when you manage to

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Speaker 1: sneak into the Abba Museum and eat five hundred o

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Speaker 1: d'ures before an engagement party realizes that they don't know you.

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Speaker 1: There's the day last week when you're in line at

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Speaker 1: the overpriced brunch place and a TV actor you were

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Speaker 1: never quite a fan of says I'll get her bill too,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, wow, he's kind of a creep, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't need to pay for my bun. And then

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Speaker 1: there's a day you wake up at seven am and

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Speaker 1: receive an email with this subject line.

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Speaker 2: Be involved in the world's largest sculptural hot dog.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh, oh, my god, listener, there is a strong possibility.

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Speaker 1: You know why this email came across my desk. The

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Speaker 1: reason is I wrote a book about hot dogs last

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Speaker 1: year called raw Dog, The Naked Truth about hot Dogs.

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Speaker 1: And while you think, Jamie, surely you're sick to death

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Speaker 1: of talking about hot dogs. Something I've learned about myself

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Speaker 1: is that I am, in fact, inexhaustible when it comes

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Speaker 1: to talking about hot dogs. In fact, if you're listening

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Speaker 1: to this episode the day it comes out, I am

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Speaker 1: on a plane at this very minute to attend the

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Speaker 1: Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest on Coney Island for the

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Speaker 1: third time. Because now I've gotten in at the after

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Speaker 1: party and it's going to be a hell of a

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Speaker 1: year because the fifteen year champion, Joey Chestnut is officially

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Speaker 1: leaving the contest. We think I wouldn't rule out a

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Speaker 1: ww E style jump scare appearance putting that on wax Oh,

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Speaker 1: where is Joey going? I'll tell you to face his

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Speaker 1: old rival to Karo Kobayashi on Netflix on Labor Day.

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Speaker 1: And it's just a thrilling time to be a fan

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Speaker 1: of hot dogs. Anyways, as I'm reading this email, I

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Speaker 1: learn that the proposed largest sculptural hot dog will be

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Speaker 1: installed in Times Square, which introduces a lot of questions.

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Speaker 1: Who got permission to airdrop a giant hot dog in

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Speaker 1: Times Square? And not to be conspiratorial, but why the

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Speaker 1: name of the project was hot dog in the city.

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Speaker 1: And as much as I love the hot dog, people

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Speaker 1: who strongly associate themselves with the idea of the hot

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Speaker 1: dog runs the risk of some very sinister American nationalism.

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Speaker 1: So placing a massive hot dog in the middle of

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Speaker 1: Times Square uncritically might have been something I was not

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Speaker 1: on board with, which I know might sound weird, But

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Speaker 1: a symbol so closely associated with a very troubled country

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Speaker 1: needs to be understood in context with who is using

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Speaker 1: that symbol. Right, So, I love hotig do, but I

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Speaker 1: am extremely skeptical of people who hawk hot dog imagery.

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Speaker 1: An uncritical symbol of America is not something that you

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Speaker 1: want to be rooting for during an election year where

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Speaker 1: one candidate is shrugging his way through funding a genocide

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Speaker 1: of the Palestinian people, and the other candidate is Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: who said this, Well.

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Speaker 3: As you know, we just worked with the meat processes.

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Speaker 3: The companies that we're talking about, you know the ones

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Speaker 3: I'm talking about, because they're all they all become very

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Speaker 3: well known.

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Speaker 4: They were well known.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, they're big companies, but they're now being treated fairly.

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Speaker 3: They're thrilled.

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Speaker 5: How do you think the workers do in those plants?

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Speaker 6: What are you doing.

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Speaker 4: Well, we're doing that.

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Speaker 3: We're going to have a report on that probably this afternoon.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna have good form of protection and through quarantine,

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Speaker 3: when we find somebody that's not we're going to be

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Speaker 3: very they're going to be very careful they are as

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Speaker 3: to who's going into the plant, and the quarantine is

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Speaker 3: going to be very strong. And we're going to make

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Speaker 3: people better. When they have a problem, we're going to

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Speaker 3: get them better. Hopefully they're going to get better.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Trump and many presidents before him have a role

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Speaker 1: in one of the more infuriating aspects of what the

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Speaker 1: hot dog has come to represent, the furious and brutal

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Speaker 1: production of meat in America. The clip you just heard

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Speaker 1: is Trump back in twenty twenty placing an executive order

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Speaker 1: towards the beginning of COVID lockdowns in which meat production

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Speaker 1: was declared as essential in the US. As time went on,

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Speaker 1: it became clear that this order gave carte blanche to

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Speaker 1: and in fact was drafted by meat processing CEOs at

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Speaker 1: Tyson and Smithfield Farms. This legislation was first of all, unnecessary.

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Speaker 1: Meat production is not essential, and because of other factors

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Speaker 1: like decreased union power, tremendous employer intimidation, and employees fear

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Speaker 1: that their government would not provide any other financial relief

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Speaker 1: during lockdown led to lives being lost at exc extremely

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Speaker 1: high rates within this industry. At one point during lockdown,

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Speaker 1: the only place more dangerous to work at than a

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Speaker 1: hospital was a meat processing plant in the US. And

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Speaker 1: that doesn't even start to address the animals. So I

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Speaker 1: mean it when I say a symbol, even when as

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Speaker 1: silly as a hot dog, comes with a lot of baggage,

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Speaker 1: even when it's a symbol of the only remaining perfect

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Speaker 1: food on Earth. Sorry, the email at seven in the morning,

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Speaker 1: and I'm staring at my phone where this mysterious email

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Speaker 1: is begging me to answer it. And what I need

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Speaker 1: to do is make sure that the person on the

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Speaker 1: other side of this email is overthinking the topic as

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Speaker 1: much as I am. Listener, I am thrilled and relieved

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Speaker 1: to report that they were. The message came from art

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Speaker 1: duo Gen Catron and Paul Outlaw, who had been commissioned

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Speaker 1: to create a sixty five foot long hollow hot dog

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Speaker 1: sculpture to put in the middle of Times Square. Even

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Speaker 1: more amazingly, this sort of work was their specialty. Their

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Speaker 1: previous work was fucking weird. It was incredible. The message said.

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Speaker 2: Here's a bit more about us. A project deck is

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Speaker 2: attached and will also leave you with this inspirational gift

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Speaker 2: below smiley face.

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Speaker 1: The gift giff sounds weird to me. Maybe that's a

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Speaker 1: generational thing. Maybe I'm old. I don't want to say it.

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Speaker 1: The gift did not disappoint. It showed a massive hot

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Speaker 1: dog on a dump truck bed, lifting into the air

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Speaker 1: and shooting confetti in front of a tourist bus and

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Speaker 1: an ad for the Lion King on Broadway. And you

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Speaker 1: have to understand. You see this and it sounds fake,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't. Jen and Paul went on to describe

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Speaker 1: the project.

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Speaker 2: Like this, a symbol and a food found throughout Times Square.

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Speaker 2: The hot dog shares elevated status as a New York

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Speaker 2: City icon, alongside the yellow taxi cab, the pretzel, the

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Speaker 2: Deli cup, and the playbill. A humble handheld sausage with

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Speaker 2: roots linked to German immigration in the eighteen hundreds, the

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Speaker 2: wiener has also become inextricably linked to American culture, from

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Speaker 2: baseball games and the Fourth of July to hot dog

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Speaker 2: diplomacy as an enduring tactic of US international relations.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so here was the deal. Jen and Paul weren't

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Speaker 1: just making a gigantic hot dog. They wanted to say

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Speaker 1: something about the hot dog and wanted to call people

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Speaker 1: in to help craft events that would make that intention clear.

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Speaker 1: Their entire body of work reflected that, finding the darkest

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Speaker 1: corners of American culture to comment on, using bright, interactive,

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Speaker 1: occasionally sinister feeling projects that drew you in visually before

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Speaker 1: you even realized how fucked up the subject matter was.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to examine the hot dog as a symbol

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Speaker 1: by creating a monument of a hot dog. Yeah, by

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Speaker 1: the end of this email, I was in. I was

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Speaker 1: absolutely in, and I hadn't even gotten out of bed yet.

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Speaker 1: Jen and Paul were these puzzle box artists that disguised

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Speaker 1: fascinating questions inside of really audacious, freaky, large scale art.

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Speaker 1: And not for nothing. But this wasn't just going to

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Speaker 1: be a hot dog sculpture. It would be a hot

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Speaker 1: dog sculpture that raised in the air, erect an ejaculated confetti.

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Speaker 1: And so the moment of truth, a sixty five foot

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Speaker 1: hot dog is knocking at the door will you answer,

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Speaker 1: I replied, Oh, my God, of course I want to

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Speaker 1: be a part of the gigantic confetti hot dog celebration. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that was all caps, And three months later I was

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Speaker 1: there in Times Square watching an enormous hot dog come

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Speaker 1: mustard colored confetti all over the squealing masses. It was horrific,

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Speaker 1: it was perfect. The hot dog has been a cultural

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Speaker 1: main character for oh for a century, but every once

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Speaker 1: in a while, it becomes the Internet's main character.

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Speaker 5: To the sixty five foot hot dog in Times Square.

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Speaker 1: Your sixteenth minute starts now.

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Speaker 2: Six s six.

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Speaker 5: Oh, this is exciting for me.

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Speaker 1: It is hot dogs season, and with hot dog season

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Speaker 1: comes the inevitable and necessary questioning of why and how

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Speaker 1: a hot dog came to symbolize America.

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Speaker 5: I know what you're thinking, Jamie.

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Speaker 1: You just wanted to talk about hot dogs.

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Speaker 2: Yes I did.

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Speaker 5: There was a sixty.

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Speaker 1: Five foot one in Times Square. Are you gonna tell

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Speaker 1: me I'm wrong? And it's the first episode of sixteen

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Speaker 1: minute to discuss a viral work of art. Kind of

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Speaker 1: an underrated subgenre of main character, I think, but there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of them. Consider that terrifying restored fresco of

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Speaker 1: Jesus by an eighty one year old woman in Spain

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Speaker 1: that looks like, well, you've seen it, not Jesus Monachelabi's

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Speaker 1: data illustrations that make crucial underreported stories pop up right

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Speaker 1: in your Instagram feed. Ooh, here's a deep cut those

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Speaker 1: Hamilton Tumblr fan art illustrations that reimagines famous slaveholder Thomas

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Speaker 1: Jefferson as a queer furry taking Japanese lessons or works

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Speaker 1: of art that come around every so often and are

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Speaker 1: received rapturously. There's a comic I see every once in

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Speaker 1: a while from the incredible artist Hallie Bateman that shows

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Speaker 1: people passing each other in a busy city connected by

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Speaker 1: tenuous primary colored lines, with the caption It's a miracle

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Speaker 1: we ever met. As I was getting ready for this episode,

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Speaker 1: I was kind of comforted that what makes a piece

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Speaker 1: of artwork get popular on the Internet is still kind

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Speaker 1: of a mysterious thing. They can be digital pieces, but

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Speaker 1: they aren't always digital pieces. Sometimes art gets to you

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Speaker 1: through the algorithm. Sometimes it's how the artwork itself connects

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Speaker 1: to a cultural moment. And sometimes the artwork is bad

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Speaker 1: and there's nothing that drives engagement like cyberbullying.

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Speaker 5: An elderly woman who lives in Spain.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes it's because the art in question isn't just

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Speaker 1: in It pulled you out of looking at your phone

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Speaker 1: in the first place, at least for a second before

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Speaker 1: it occurs to you to take a selfie with it

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Speaker 1: because of the gigantic hot dog? What were you gonna

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Speaker 1: do not take a picture with it? I find this comforting.

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Speaker 1: The powers that be who fund public works of art

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Speaker 1: can't really predict how people will.

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Speaker 5: Respond to it.

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Speaker 1: And it is from this great tradition of public art

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Speaker 1: that people grow irrationally attached to and angry at that

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Speaker 1: we find the sixty five foot hot dog in Times Square.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about what constitutes public art.

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Speaker 1: So public art, the non founding father monument type has

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Speaker 1: been around since the late nineteenth century, give or take,

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Speaker 1: following the World's Fair of eighteen ninety three in Chicago. Interestingly,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the false narratives around who invented the

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Speaker 1: hot dog came from this same World's Fair, but that's

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Speaker 1: for another day. The point is publicly funded art comes

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Speaker 1: alongside industrialization and the increase of people living in urban centers.

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Speaker 5: When I say public art in.

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Speaker 1: This episode, I mean pieces that were made possible by

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Speaker 1: at least partially public funding, so not overt advertisements, and

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Speaker 1: usually touching on themes that funders think will be relevant.

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Speaker 5: To everyday people.

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Speaker 1: Although the way that public art has been funded over

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Speaker 1: the years has changed, but thankfully it's still a part

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Speaker 1: of our landscape today, which is amazing, especially if your

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Speaker 1: mom's mission in life is to get a selfie with

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Speaker 1: this Chicago being. For some reason, the kind of public

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Speaker 1: art that leads to a gorgeous feminine phallic object in

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Speaker 1: Times Square can be traced back about.

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Speaker 5: One hundred years.

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Speaker 1: The book Modernism for the Masses by Jody Patterson gets

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Speaker 1: into this history in detail. Arts funding, as we know

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Speaker 1: it really took off in the US in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirties during the New Deal era under President Roosevelt, and

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Speaker 1: was meant to keep artists working and developing a more

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Speaker 1: distinct national art style to compete with other countries invested

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Speaker 1: in a similar mission, because countries love to use art

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Speaker 1: as soft propaganda to demonstrate how awesome it is here. Actually,

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Speaker 1: Navy recruitment went up five hundred percent after Top Gun

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Speaker 1: came out.

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Speaker 4: To reach for something bigger, a master, a more challenging

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Speaker 4: world to feel the confidence and pride of knowing who

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Speaker 4: you are and what you can do.

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Speaker 7: Show the world your US Navy Live the Adventure Paul one,

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Speaker 7: eight hundred three to seven.

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Speaker 1: Maybe, but these New Deal programs were net good.

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Speaker 5: They ended up nurturing a lot of.

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Speaker 1: Artists who are a part of American canon today, employed

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Speaker 1: them so that they didn't need to leave their respective

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Speaker 1: creative fields, and expanded the average Americans access to art

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Speaker 1: by putting it on display for free and using other

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Speaker 1: money to open community centers in underserved cities. And this

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Speaker 1: gave many marginalized Americans access to arts and arts education.

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Speaker 1: It's the kind of stuff that we don't really invest

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Speaker 1: in today, and it made a big difference. Slight propaganda

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Speaker 1: intent aside this New Deal program, the Federal Art Project

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Speaker 1: generally worked for artists. They were, of course, dead broke

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Speaker 1: during the depression, and while censorship within these grants were

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Speaker 1: about the issue you would expect, there were technically only

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Speaker 1: two rules for a Federal Art Project at this time.

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Speaker 1: They were no nudes and no politics. Best of luck

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Speaker 1: with that, Franklin. Many artists n these things in any ways,

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Speaker 1: and were still provided with the living wage, studio space

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Speaker 1: and public audience they needed to establish a career. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: this program went away in the early forties when America's

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Speaker 1: involvement in World War II increased, but the spirit of

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Speaker 1: it made a short comeback in the nineties seventies under

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Speaker 1: Richard Nixon.

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Speaker 5: Oops did he slay there?

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got.

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Speaker 1: No, he was a bad guy regardless. From nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: three to nineteen eighty. According to Jody Patterson in an

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Speaker 1: interview with Fox's Alissa Wilkinson, a Nixon program called the

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Speaker 1: Comprehensive Employment and Training Act ended up employing about ten

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Speaker 1: thousand artists during this time. I was not aware of

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Speaker 1: most of this information, and I was honestly a little

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Speaker 1: surprised to hear that public art has been around for

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Speaker 1: so short a time. In the way we're thinking of it,

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Speaker 1: these full salary, government funded programs have largely dried up.

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Speaker 1: One of the most effective ways of getting funded today

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Speaker 1: are through private public sector collaborations, which is how Hot

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Speaker 1: Dog in the City gets made. So instead of being

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Speaker 1: government funded like artists of the late nineteen thirties, this

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Speaker 1: system has the public partially funding the project and the

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Speaker 1: rest of the money coming from insert corporation name here.

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Speaker 1: Another popular way to get funding is from a still

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Speaker 1: operational New Deal policy called Art in Architecture, which to

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Speaker 1: this day institutes that half a percent of construction costs

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Speaker 1: to all American government buildings be used to commission public

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Speaker 1: American art to go in front of them. So if

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Speaker 1: you've ever asked, why is this gigantic clothes spin in

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Speaker 1: front of my government building?

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Speaker 5: There you go.

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Speaker 1: But what I love about public artworks is when they

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Speaker 1: get people mad, and that happens with pretty great frequency.

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Speaker 1: Some of my favorite examples include the Gorilla Girls' billboards

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Speaker 1: do women have to be naked to get into the

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Speaker 1: Met Museum from the nineteen eighties. What I learned about

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Speaker 1: last year was Paul McCarthy's tree, which is advertised as

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Speaker 1: a gigantic green inflatable tree heavy air quotes that many

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Speaker 1: correctly saw as a giant inflatable green butt plugs, hygewayways,

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Speaker 1: good fences, make good neighbors from back in twenty seventeen

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Speaker 1: that commented on America's growing hostility towards immigrants. And there

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Speaker 1: was some controversy with hot Dog in the City, But

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Speaker 1: we'll get there. The sixty five foot hot dog was

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Speaker 1: funded by Times Square Arts, a public arts fund that

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Speaker 1: was founded in nineteen ninety two, and they actually sought

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Speaker 1: out Gen Catron and Paul Outlaw. At the time of

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Speaker 1: this writing, Times Square Arts is funded in a public

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Speaker 1: private way, so part of the huge hot Dog was

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Speaker 1: funded by the city, the state, and the National Endowment

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Speaker 1: for the Arts, and the other part was funded by

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Speaker 1: drum Roll, Please Meta and Morgan Stanley, and obviously Times

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Speaker 1: Square is a huge get for a public installation artists.

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Speaker 1: The square itself has been the hub of American consumerism

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Speaker 1: and pop culture and Elmo impersonators the costumes ventilated at

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Speaker 1: the neck for over one hundred year. About half a

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Speaker 1: million people pass through there every day, and if you're

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Speaker 1: an artist being asked to make something, there's few places

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Speaker 1: on earth where there's more visual noise to cut through.

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Speaker 5: Enter Jen and Paul.

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Speaker 1: Come with me if you will. Two today, a few

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, basically today, Inside Out Too is doing great

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Speaker 1: at the box office, and if it does better than Minions,

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Speaker 1: I'll walk into traffic. Record heat is once again sweeping

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Speaker 1: the globe. The American government continues to aid in event

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Speaker 1: Israel and the genocide and starvation of Palestinians, and I

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Speaker 1: have my period today.

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Speaker 5: This is the world.

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Speaker 1: That the sixty five foot hot Dog takes place within.

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Speaker 1: Jen Catron and Paul Outlaw were asked to pitch some

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Speaker 1: ideas to Times Square Arts for the spring of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four, and Gene Cooney at Times Square Arts was

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Speaker 1: right to ask them because they were uniquely suited a

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Speaker 1: large scale public project like this. After they met getting

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Speaker 1: their MFAs at Crankruk Academy of Art in the late

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Speaker 1: two thousands, Jen and Paul banded together and moved to

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Speaker 1: New York. They've worked on both huge, fun public projects

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Speaker 1: and smaller, sometimes more somberly themed gallery pieces for the

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Speaker 1: better part of fifteen years. Whether they're interactive and outside

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Speaker 1: or in a gallery, they all share the same visual language.

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Speaker 1: So I'm no art critic. I literally just told you

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Speaker 1: I'm a big Manions fan. But whether Jen and Paul

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Speaker 1: are making something for fun or using a miniature sculpture

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Speaker 1: to envision what Alex Jones's depression bathroom might look like,

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Speaker 1: the work is colorful and it dares you to interact

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Speaker 1: with it physically and intellectually. I really like what they do,

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Speaker 1: but going through their catalog, I especially love their public

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Speaker 1: and their performance pieces.

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Speaker 5: Back in twenty fourteen, there was their double.

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Speaker 1: Decker bus tour of Chelsea's art galleries, which included a

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Speaker 1: gift shop that poked fun at the abundance of white

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Speaker 1: men whose work populated those galleries, as well as making

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Speaker 1: up random artists of their own and the hopes that

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Speaker 1: people would notice.

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Speaker 6: Hi, I'm Jen Katrine about Paul Outlaw, and you are

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Speaker 6: here at Gen and Paul's one stop shopping Souvenir City

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Speaker 6: and Chelsea Bus Tours.

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Speaker 4: This is our big bus, Chelsea, New York City.

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Speaker 7: This is where all the blue chier galleries gather to play.

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Speaker 6: So we're here to give the inside scoop and what.

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Speaker 5: Really goes on in these galleries.

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Speaker 6: Now, the Chelsea art thing can be very very confusing.

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Speaker 6: Why does some artists make so much money?

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Speaker 4: Why are most artists white?

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Speaker 7: Mouse? We don't know, We don't know, but we have

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Speaker 7: a pretty good guest.

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Speaker 5: And it got a reaction.

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Speaker 1: Chelsea Art galleries were pretty annoyed at this big, homemade,

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Speaker 1: double decker gaudy tour bus careening down their fancy little district.

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Speaker 1: Another early amazing project from them was back in twenty

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Speaker 1: ten with Genden Outlaws Fish Fry Truck before the Big

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Speaker 1: Food Truck Boom, where the two bought a retired food

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Speaker 1: truck off breakflast, added hydraulics, and then almost pop up

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Speaker 1: book fold out animatronic restaurant where they would serve fresh

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Speaker 1: crawfish inspired by their rural upbringings. And even after the

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Speaker 1: truck closed, the performance kept going. They were on Chopped.

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Speaker 7: And finally Chef Gen Catron and Chef Paul Outlaw, We're

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Speaker 7: the chefs and owners and chin and Outlaws Fish Frout

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Speaker 7: Truck and crawfish Boil.

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Speaker 5: I heard that southern Illinois.

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Speaker 7: I'm from Perio, Balabama, on the Gulf coast, looking to

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Speaker 7: New York City.

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Speaker 4: We'd filled the missing boy in New York for.

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Speaker 7: This mud bug from Louisiana.

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Speaker 4: When Jane lights up every ring she walks into. The

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Speaker 4: biggles are good, Paul, I could be the best.

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Speaker 6: Everything he does.

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Speaker 4: I'm not afraid of losing because I've never done it.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what it's like. Chin It Outlaws, curl Fees.

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Speaker 1: They were not professional chefs and yet they ended up

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Speaker 1: on Chopped. In their gallery work, you get a chance

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Speaker 1: to see Jen and Paul with a little less chaos

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Speaker 1: and a little more overt political messaging. They created miniatures

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Speaker 1: that referenced right wing conspiratorial moments like Pizzagate, like Alex Jones,

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Speaker 1: an acknowledgment of colonialism, a sculpture about the violence it

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Speaker 1: takes for a banana to get into your hands at

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Speaker 1: a local grocery store. But their public projects usually tend

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Speaker 1: to be more interactive. You were on the bus on

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Speaker 1: the art tour, you were eating the crawfish. They once

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Speaker 1: designed a giant mechanical pair of tongs that picked up

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Speaker 1: a big, fake giant meatball and a big fake giant

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Speaker 1: plate of spaghetti. They're really creative, and they're all about

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Speaker 1: messing around with contexts, and this hot dog project was

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Speaker 1: no different. It wouldn't just be a sixty five foot

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Speaker 1: long hot dog. It was a hot dog that would

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Speaker 1: rise and come at noon every day and was all

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Speaker 1: so hollowed out to host very small events, Which brings

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Speaker 1: me to the event, which was another crucial part of

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Speaker 1: Jen and Paul's mission with this project, because while the

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Speaker 1: hot dog itself was meant to draw tourists in in

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Speaker 1: Times Square, the six weeks that the hot Dog was there. Yes, sorry,

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Speaker 1: if you're listening, it's already too late. They've programmed a

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Speaker 1: series of events that either played into or directly contradicted

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Speaker 1: the jingoistic americanness that we're trained to see in the

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Speaker 1: hot Dog. They talk about it a little here in

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Speaker 1: a promo video.

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Speaker 6: Hot Dog being kind of this very deeply entrenched American

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Speaker 6: symbol has permeated our culture, So the hot Dog means

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Speaker 6: a lot to who we are, and also the darker

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Speaker 6: or sinister parts of how the hot Dog came to be,

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Speaker 6: I think is also reflective of our larger American culture.

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Speaker 6: So we think it's such a good and fitting symbol

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Speaker 6: to blow up at this massive scale.

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Speaker 7: Along with the hot Dogs, we also have a lot

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Speaker 7: of additional programming that's going to help really shape and

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Speaker 7: formulate the story that we're trying to tell.

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Speaker 6: We're hoping that through this wide range of avenge that

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Speaker 6: we can tell the largest story the hot Dog and

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Speaker 6: kind of the larger story of ourselves too.

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Speaker 1: Before the Hot Dog's grand unveiling in Times Square on

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Speaker 1: April thirtieth, Gen and Paul announced the following programming. The

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Speaker 1: Hottest Dog, a canine beauty pageant, a hot dog gating

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Speaker 1: contest with Nathan's hot Dogs just like the Fourth of

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Speaker 1: July show on Coney Island, a condiment wrestling match featuring

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Speaker 1: the Extreme Wrestling Alliance, which is a local backyard wrestling organization,

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Speaker 1: and Chokehole, a New Orleans drag performance group.

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Speaker 5: A video series that explored.

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Speaker 1: The highs and lows of being a street vendor in

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Speaker 1: New York when street vending laws are more restrictive than ever.

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Speaker 1: And a day long academic summit on the Hot Dog,

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Speaker 1: which brag I spoke and hosted at, which also featured

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Speaker 1: street vendors who were organizing on behalf of their peers.

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Speaker 1: A high school debate team arguing Ketchup versus Mustard Mustard

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Speaker 1: one huge upset. There was a professional eaters panel, and

439
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: there was a speech by one of the most famous

440
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: vegan feminists ever, Carol J.

441
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 5: Adams.

442
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: And this all took place in a Broadway theater on

443
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: a Sunday afternoon. These events were in addition to massive

444
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: opening and closing events for The Hot Dog on April

445
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: thirtieth and June thirteenth, And while these events were dispersed

446
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: throughout the run, every day at noon the hot dog

447
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: would be hoisted onto its side and would shoot confetti

448
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 1: that the delight and confusion of tourists and costumed elmos.

449
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: After the announcement, Evil seemed generally pumped, The programming sounded cool,

450
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: and the sixty five foot distinction made it officially the

451
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: largest hot dog sculpture ever made, with apologies to that

452
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: other guy, and Jen and Paul were all set for

453
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: the big opening because with that opening would come the reviews.

454
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: So it's the day of the Times Square unveiling April thirtieth,

455
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: The advanced promotion for the project has gone over very well.

456
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 1: The poster features Paul, who's painted pink and lying in

457
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: a gigantic hot dog bun covered in mustard and naked

458
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: except for a loincloth, while Jen looms above him and

459
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: a hot dog metallic bikini like the Venus de Milo.

460
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: She's about six months pregnant. Because did I mention, Gen

461
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: and Paul are partners in life and in art, and

462
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: their sixty five foot hot dog is unveiled literal days

463
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: before Jen gives birth to their second child. I mean,

464
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: there are two people on Earth living the dream, and

465
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: it's these two. There's a crowd gathered around the hot

466
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: dog looking at its wondrousness, and Jen and Paul are

467
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: dressed to the nines. He's wearing a suit, she's wearing

468
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: a sheer dress covered in applice daisies. And to open

469
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: the event, they go for a comical amount of American imagery.

470
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: On one side of the hot dog there was a

471
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: professional cheerleading squad, and on the other side of the

472
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: hot dog there was the Late show's gospel choir performing.

473
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: It felt like the marriage of American religion, pro sports

474
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: and religion. A few days later was the Condiment Wrestling match,

475
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: which contrasted these scrappy backyard wrestlers with nipple twisting drag performers.

476
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: And it was here where the more polarizing coverage began.

477
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: So I gathered some initial press reactions to this hot dog,

478
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 1: and one of these things is not like the other.

479
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: Let's see if you can spot it.

480
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 2: It's both a celebration of the food item as well

481
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: as a Marxist critique of the labor conditions so many

482
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: vendors face, and of the meat packing industry more broadly.

483
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 2: Where Claude Oldenberg meets up to Sinclair.

484
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: Times Square, the capital of capitalism amplifies the messages of

485
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: the artists who suggested the origins of the hot Dog,

486
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: and what today makes it the almost perfect American capitalism

487
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: story in good ways and in bad ways.

488
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 2: Not only enhances the entropy of Times Square, but also

489
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: dominates the palette entirely. Amid the sensory overload of slow

490
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: moving crowds, creepy costumed characters demanding paid selfies, the infamous

491
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: naked cowboy, and Retina singing digital billboards.

492
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: The mood was joyful and astounded even the scene. At

493
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: all Times Square security guards laughed and Onion pummeled another

494
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: character in the corner of the ring pure delight. Chohl

495
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: got rounchy howls. The hot Dog ascended skyward.

496
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: Times Square's Giant hot Dog is apparently a meat manifesto

497
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: about toxic masculinity.

498
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 5: Wait, we found it now.

499
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: Those other reviews are very art world, They're very heady.

500
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: They're using names that you're like. I was supposed to

501
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: read them in high school, But did I for that

502
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: last pull as a headline from the New York Post.

503
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: So before that, I quoted a lot of liberal, art

504
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: world friendly publications. The most popular publication I quoted was

505
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: The New York Times, who still actively failed to report.

506
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 5: On the genocide in Gaza.

507
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: So I'm not meaning to say that any one publication

508
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: is better than the other.

509
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 5: However, it is The.

510
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: New York Post, with the historically right lan that takes

511
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: the bait of the Giant hot Dog's message. They heard

512
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: the word masculinity and realized, wait, that's one of the

513
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: words we put in headlines to make people all mad.

514
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: This headline, I'm square Giant hot Dog is apparently a

515
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: meat manifesto about toxic masculinity, was written by columnist and

516
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: reviewer Johnny Oliniski, author of important articles like bear Breasts,

517
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: Suicides and Floco NYC can't handle public art and the

518
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: biggest problem with House of the Dragon, I can't remember

519
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: anyone's name.

520
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 5: Look, no hate.

521
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: I used to write clickbait for a living, too, only

522
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: making fun of him because this guy seems like an asshole.

523
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: Let's hear what he has to say about the concept

524
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: of masculinity. I'm sure he's very reasonable.

525
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 2: Their Titanic sausage is apparently meant to quote examine consumption, capitalism,

526
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: class and contemporary culture. Times Squared Arts website amazingly reads

527
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: that must be why every day at twelve pm, the

528
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: installation lifts off the ground, angles up to sky, and

529
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: becomes a confetti cannon. The explosion of euphemism is supposed

530
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: to reference the quote hyper masculinity and showmanship often associated

531
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: with American culture and patriotism end quote.

532
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 5: I'm sure it is. And later on there are.

533
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: Even events pegged to this best of worsts, which is

534
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: in town till June thirteenth. One called the Condiment Wars

535
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: will feature the wrestlers of a New Orleans based drag

536
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 2: group known as Choke Cole, who will quote take down masculinity,

537
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 2: corporate America, and capitalism end quote. Yeah, I sense a

538
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: trend here. Later on there's a canine beauty pageant one

539
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: hundred percent approve, a hot dog eating contest makes sense,

540
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: and then an on stage talk at town Hall debating

541
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: the merits of the food uh oh. Among the panelists

542
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: at that chat will be a feminist, vegan, writer, and activist.

543
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 2: I have a sneaking suspicion she won't be pro hot dog.

544
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 5: Loser.

545
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: Shut up. Bullying is bad except when I do it

546
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: to this guy right now, loser, But when you think

547
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: about it for a second, this guy and the New

548
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: York Post have played directly into Gen and Paul's hands.

549
00:32:50,280 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: They set a trap and he fell into it. But

550
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: when you think about it for a second, this guy

551
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: and the New York Post have played directly into Jen

552
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: and Paul's hands. They set a trap and he fell

553
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: into it. I wanted to know more about how this

554
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: project came together, and we're better to go than the source.

555
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: So the day after that hot Dog summit that Johnny

556
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: owen Eski hated so much, I took the subway over

557
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: to Gen and Paul studio in Brooklyn, where they were

558
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: in the process of cooking up the closing ceremony for

559
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: June thirteenth. Here's our interview.

560
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 5: I am Jen.

561
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 4: Catrin and I'm Paul Outlaw, and.

562
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 6: We are the artists behind Hotdog in the City.

563
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 5: Hi guys, Hi?

564
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: Was this the room that the hot Dog was conceived

565
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:46,959
Speaker 1: inside of?

566
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 4: This is where we conceived all our children?

567
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: Wow, including the two real ones.

568
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, we've been in this room for We've been in

569
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 7: this building for eleven years, and in this particular room

570
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 7: for eight eight years maybe.

571
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 5: Yeah. How long have you been sitting on the hot

572
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 5: Dog idea?

573
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: How?

574
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 5: What was the genesis of it.

575
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 6: We really do like working with food as far as

576
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 6: our studio practice goes. So we have actually been making

577
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 6: like hot dogs for a little like pregnant hot dogs

578
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 6: for a while.

579
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 5: Like that went over there.

580
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 7: We should mention food in all its forms, like food sculptures, yeah,

581
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 7: and actually start cooking and serving food. Yeah, food as

582
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 7: the grotesque.

583
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 6: And then we started to think about like Times Square

584
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 6: approached us about doing a project, and so we presented

585
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 6: several ideas to them, but you know, the hot dog

586
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 6: just kind of started to make the most sense because

587
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 6: Times Square. You know, like when people think about about

588
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 6: times we're going to think of street vending and the

589
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 6: hot dog and just New York City in general, like

590
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 6: asar as like where we should geographically place it.

591
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 5: It just made sense to put it in Times Square.

592
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 7: We had a number of proposals with Times Square Arts

593
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 7: as well, but the hot dog kept reappearing as the

594
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 7: that's the favorite of the panel.

595
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 5: Am I to know what any of the sure? Yeah.

596
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 6: It was like a massive cake where like you would.

597
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 4: Go in birthdake, multi tiered Bertha cake.

598
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 6: Where people would have to wear candles on their heads

599
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 6: and like go inside and their heads would pop out

600
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 6: and be like the candles for the cake while they

601
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 6: had like woke and coffee, but.

602
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 7: We can serve them a cup of coffee and be

603
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 7: like a coffee shop. But uh, but on top of

604
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 7: a six story birthday cake.

605
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 6: And then what was the other one we had?

606
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 7: We had we had several ideas that involved large piles

607
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 7: of trash and rotten food with oh, with flies that

608
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 7: were drones, barrel barrel sized flies that were all whoa.

609
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:42,959
Speaker 5: Back down, But we can't do drones.

610
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 7: Sometimes the flies would go up in times square and

611
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 7: do they would do They would be choreographed. Yeah, they

612
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 7: would put on a production and then land back on

613
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 7: the pile of trash.

614
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 6: But yeah, yeah, we could not do it there. They

615
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 6: are huge restrictions on Yeah, so we have a bunch

616
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 6: of create Our brainstorming sessions are honestly just like really wacko.

617
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 6: Like it takes us a while to finally land on

618
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 6: something that's both crazy and actually physically possible to do.

619
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 6: But for a while when we're talking about all these things,

620
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 6: we just we just like let loose, like it doesn't

621
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 6: matter if this is actually physically possible or if you know,

622
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 6: we can actually do it.

623
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 5: We're just going to talk about it.

624
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 6: But then we commit with the hot Dog, and then

625
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 6: we knew the hot dog was not enough, Like we're like, no,

626
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 6: it needs to be like it needs to speak to

627
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 6: Times Square to like this corporate masculine capitalism that's just

628
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 6: like overbearing in this area.

629
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 8: It was Paul.

630
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 6: Eventually, I believe it came up with the idea to

631
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 6: kind of well, we started from like a missile treck, honestly,

632
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 6: like raising up in the air.

633
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, a ballistic hot dog was kind of the origins

634
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 7: of that.

635
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, just like shooting up and then shooting.

636
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 7: Out confetti North Korea style military parades.

637
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, making its.

638
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 7: Way through the New York City and then and then

639
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 7: lifting up towards skyward.

640
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 6: The sordid parts of the hot Dog make the sordid

641
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 6: parts of America. So as we started like digging and

642
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 6: we're like, well, this actually makes a lot of sense

643
00:36:58,680 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 6: to put in Times Square.

644
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: Okay, So I want to take it back a little

645
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: bit and talk more about your lives specifically, how did

646
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: you get from where you came from to working together?

647
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 6: I grew up in southern Illinois. There was no like

648
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 6: art scene obviously, just like a lot of farm farmland,

649
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 6: but I was always just doing weird shit performative type

650
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 6: things that I didn't know as art. And then eventually

651
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 6: I think I came to the conclusion that what I

652
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 6: was doing, the only category fit it would be art

653
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 6: and so yeah.

654
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 4: Such as what oh well, yeah, well, I had.

655
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 6: Like a bunch of pet animals, but like weird ones,

656
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 6: Like I had two pet raccoons, and like I was

657
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 6: always out in the woods like training them to do

658
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 6: things like like what, well, I had to train them

659
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 6: to like live off the land because their mom died,

660
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 6: so I was like teaching them to catch crawdads in

661
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 6: the creek and things like that. But then I don't know,

662
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 6: I had like little performance elements that they would do too,

663
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,439
Speaker 6: and I was always really interested in like getting these

664
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 6: like weird pets of mine to do like performative things

665
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 6: with me. So like yeah, yeah, like a circustrate exciting.

666
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 6: But I will say like eventually I did, like I released,

667
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 6: they weren't ever in a cage. They actually always just

668
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 6: lived in a woodpile and they were always.

669
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 5: Free to come and go. But eventually I had to

670
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 5: like force.

671
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 6: Them to go because they were getting like older, and

672
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 6: they needed to be like away from me because I'm

673
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 6: not a raccoon. I can't really teach them, like they

674
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 6: just can't be with me forever because the raccoons, I'm

675
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 6: a person. So I had to like send them out

676
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 6: into the countryside and I had to like take them

677
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 6: in a truck and like release them into a woods

678
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 6: far away so they wouldn't be like so depending on me.

679
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 6: But at that point I knew that they were like okay,

680
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 6: Like they would go out for the day and like

681
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 6: get their crawdads and like eat their food, and then

682
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 6: I was like, Okay, they're free to go.

683
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 5: It's like they were sending them to college.

684
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, but not just raccoons.

685
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 4: Gin is progress to other animals.

686
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, well, well this is going to start feeling

687
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 6: like I'm going to get in trouble.

688
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 4: So it was just mine, none of much trouble.

689
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 7: You graduated the mice, yeah you did, chickens, yeah, quail

690
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 7: I did.

691
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it was all very.

692
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 4: We're all wearing funny hats.

693
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was all very I know.

694
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 6: I feel like this sounds so borderline as whether I'm

695
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 6: like like I'm mistreating animals, but I swear I'm not

696
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 6: mistreating animals. And yeah, they just I just had like

697
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 6: pets and they just they hung out with me.

698
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 5: I did fun things with them.

699
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah you had you had as many circus I did,

700
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: Like I had like a little circus anyway, So I

701
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: just say that that was art and that I could

702
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: be an artist.

703
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 7: And then I'm from Alabama, small town Alabama, but but

704
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 7: I was always uh doing artwork of some sorts and

705
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 7: ended up ended up just finding my way into a

706
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 7: sculpture program in college and getting serious about it, and

707
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,919
Speaker 7: then just after that just moved to New York. After

708
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 7: a few years working as studio assistant. In New York,

709
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 7: I went to Cranbrook and outside of Detroit for graduate school,

710
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 7: which is where Jennifer also happened to be going. That's

711
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 7: where they recognized her natural talents and ability for training animals,

712
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 7: and they allowed her to come to Cranbrook also.

713
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:03,720
Speaker 5: Yeah shocking.

714
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 7: We actually went to school together for a couple of

715
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 7: years in Detroit and then moved back to New York

716
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 7: after that, and we've been we kind of started working

717
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 7: together and in at Cranbrook helping each other out with projects.

718
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,800
Speaker 7: I would help jen rig up her mice, ferris wheels

719
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 7: that operated, and Jen would help me put on game

720
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 7: shows at the student gallery. So our work just kind

721
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,439
Speaker 7: of started melting together. When we go to New York,

722
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 7: it just became kind of second nature to be working

723
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 7: together all the time. We actually do a lot of

724
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 7: performance work in our in our in our studio practice

725
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 7: as well. We do a lot of sculptures, and we

726
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 7: do environments and use a lot of audience participation, and

727
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 7: they're all kind of extension of what the idea of

728
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 7: performance work is, including the hot dog. It is a

729
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 7: sculptural object, but there's also a performative aspect of that.

730
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 6: Yeah.

731
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 7: I think that Jen and I both started really really

732
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 7: using performance in our work at grad school.

733
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 6: And then I think for us, public art needs to

734
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 6: have different level of approach because you are dealing with

735
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 6: public who may not be as they don't have the

736
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 6: same like art history understanding. And that's not a criticism,

737
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 6: that's just you know, that's just what.

738
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 5: It's just the world. It's just the world.

739
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 7: Yeah.

740
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 6: When we make public works to make something that is

741
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 6: at least approachable on a certain level, and then you know,

742
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 6: as people dig in and hopefully we hold their attention

743
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 6: and keep their attention and then they can start maybe

744
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 6: thinking about the more critical elements that we're trying to

745
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:29,919
Speaker 6: bring out to light.

746
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: So that's part of what I love about the approach

747
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: to your public work, where like you can enjoy it

748
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: if you get it, and you can enjoy it if

749
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: you don't get it.

750
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, like that is what makes a great piece of

751
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:40,879
Speaker 5: public art.

752
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: Could you give me a dumb person an idea of

753
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: how you build a sixty five foot long hot talk?

754
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 7: Well, I mean it is the magic of engineering, I suppose,

755
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 7: but it's like it's it is. It does start on

756
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 7: we start with drawings of what we wanted to look like,

757
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 7: what kind of scale might be taking, and what the

758
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 7: what the overall shape looks like obviously like any artwork

759
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 7: would start. And then after that we dive deep into

760
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 7: the computer. Uh so it gets engineer drawings for something

761
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 7: like this that is very much in the public realm

762
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 7: and very very large. It also has to get engineering

763
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 7: stamps and approvals from engineers. So we have to have

764
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 7: the internal structure all has to be built to speck

765
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 7: and all the materials have to be SpecEd out and

766
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 7: then get approved by the engineer. That part is basically

767
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 7: a welded steel frame that's connected to a semi trailer

768
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 7: that would have been like a dump trailer for like

769
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,439
Speaker 7: dumping dirt rocks up the boat.

770
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 6: Okay, which is brilliant because when something already exists, it's

771
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 6: like much easier to get an engineer to stamp it.

772
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 6: That was Paul's idea. Actually, he's like, well, this already exists,

773
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 6: so we'll just so you're just using like a dump truck.

774
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 4: So we took it.

775
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 7: It's a dump bed, a dump bed trailer, semi trailer.

776
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 7: We removed the tub so it's just the trailer frame

777
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 7: and the hydraulics, and then we built our own interior

778
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 7: frame at a steel for that. It isn't two pieces.

779
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 7: It bolts together on site. Because the length was going

780
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 7: at sixty five feet long, it was too long for

781
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 7: an actual semi trailer, so we did cut it into

782
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 7: two pieces.

783
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 4: Ok There.

784
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 7: Once the frames done, then we get back to the

785
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 7: fun art part and we basically clad the whole thing

786
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 7: in Pham that is carved to be shaped like the

787
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 7: hot dog, to look like to look like our drawings

788
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 7: and our pictures and our renderings.

789
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: It seems like I got away with feels dramatic, but

790
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: it feels like you guys got away with so much

791
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: in the creation of this hot Dog, Like I'm just

792
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: in awe of how much you got away with.

793
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

794
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 6: No, they were surprisingly accommodating, like they were enthusiastic about it.

795
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 4: They let us do really.

796
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 6: The wrestling show, and I was like, this is going

797
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 6: to be wild. And I think as they as they

798
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 6: saw the show unfolded're like, oh, this is wilder than

799
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 6: we thought it would be.

800
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: But they still were like, Okay, this is a nice Yeah,

801
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: ask for forgiveness later.

802
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.

803
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: What are interactions or things you've heard anecdotally about the

804
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: public interacting with this hot dog that stick out to you.

805
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 7: Really remarkable response, like like people absolutely love it. They

806
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 7: show up there just to see it. They come to

807
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 7: Times Square just to see the hot Dog.

808
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 4: Uh, they want it when we're there doing.

809
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 7: We do the confetti pop off every day at noon,

810
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 7: and when we're there they want to make sure they

811
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 7: didn't miss it or is it still on schedule?

812
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 4: And and there's a.

813
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 7: There's a there's a there's a crowd every every day

814
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 7: of the hot Dog waiting for this little little micro

815
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 7: confetti blast that comes out comes out the end of

816
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 7: this hot dog.

817
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 4: Uh, they're very pumped up about it.

818
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 7: The social media reaction has been has been huge. I

819
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 7: think we've heard like a billion impressions around the.

820
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 4: Around the social media.

821
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 7: One of the things that I've I found I was

822
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 7: super happy with is on its face, it was it

823
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 7: was it's just a hot dog.

824
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 4: It's just a hot dog.

825
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 7: We we we have we have reasons for it for

826
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 7: it being a hot dog that we've we've dropped hints

827
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 7: to and and why what we want the sculpture to

828
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 7: speak to. But but we didn't push that too hard.

829
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 7: And on the surface, it was just a hot dog.

830
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 7: But as soon as people started thinking that it's more

831
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 7: than a hot dog and then it's really really has

832
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 7: a little more a critical uh theory behind it, they

833
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 7: they kind of took that and ran with it into

834
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 7: exactly the way that I expected them to, in the

835
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 7: way I kind.

836
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 4: Of wanted them to walk me through that example.

837
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 7: Yeah. So so for example, the New York Post, they

838
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 7: they first announced it awesome, here's a big hot dog story.

839
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 7: They announced that once here's a giant hot dog in

840
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 7: Times Square. It's gonna be so cool, it's gonna be great,

841
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 7: and then like a week later they kind of caught

842
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 7: wind of some of the some of the ideas that

843
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 7: we that we think the hot Dog represents, which are

844
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 7: which are not even that that horrible. It's more of

845
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 7: a reflection on the society, for better or worse. You

846
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 7: kind of take it as it is. It is, it

847
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 7: is who we are, it is where we came from,

848
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 7: it is what we what we look like. They immediately

849
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 7: took sides on it, and they immediately uh, I.

850
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 6: Think the headline was apparently the hot Dog is about

851
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 6: toxic masculinity or.

852
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 5: Something like that.

853
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 6: Right, They were like jumping to some conclusions and getting

854
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 6: their base fired up. And that's when that's when the

855
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 6: hate mail came. Was after that article obviously.

856
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, had you ever been through like a round

857
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: of uh hate mail reaction to stuff before?

858
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 4: I don't know, so yeah, yeah, well not on this

859
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 4: scale by any means.

860
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 6: Yeah, but it was it was just calling us morons

861
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 6: and and you know, I mean, nothing too crazy, just

862
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 6: I feel like you've gotten so much worse than we have.

863
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it's suffer as bad as you think

864
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: it's going to be. But every once in a while,

865
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,479
Speaker 1: you're like, Wow, that took a lot of time.

866
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's remarkable the amount of effort that.

867
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 6: You have to go mail address to make a big

868
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 6: email address. They find our emails, they like, you know,

869
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 6: just to.

870
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 7: Say hot dog equals moron because another publications fill right

871
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,919
Speaker 7: in line on the other side of the.

872
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 8: New York Times, you know, which is we're careful.

873
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 7: We're careful not to not to necessarily criticize too too

874
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 7: hard in our work.

875
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 4: We do believe that we're.

876
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 7: A reflection well, I mean what society is. And if

877
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 7: that reflection is bad, that's not that's not our fault.

878
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 7: It's it's society's fault. You don't like the reflection that

879
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 7: you see what I mean, who's wise? Who's probably whose

880
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 7: fault is that? Realizing that the hot dog is a

881
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 7: reflection of of of society, then then they immediately took

882
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 7: sides and immediately went well, and.

883
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 5: We we said some maybe.

884
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 6: I mean, anytime you talk about America and you're not

885
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 6: like saying, yeah, America, this is the best, Like I

886
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 6: feel like that's like, yeah, that's like a trigger.

887
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 5: You're going to get a lot of emails calling you moron.

888
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And we were sabotage. The hot Dog was sabotage.

889
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 7: Someone at some point in time when went under underneath

890
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 7: the hot Dog and just ripped every hose an electrical

891
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 7: component and and and broke all the kill switches and

892
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 7: the choke candles on the on the both motors that

893
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 7: we have underneath there, and unplugged all the hoses and

894
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 7: messed with the hydraulics. And it was a violent intentionally, Yeah,

895
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 7: it was dismantling of the.

896
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 4: Of the motors that operate the hot dog.

897
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 7: That's pretty again, like talking about how much work it

898
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 7: takes us in an email, it takes even more work

899
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 7: to go try to physically vandalize hot dog sculpture. Oh,

900
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 7: in the day before that, someone called basically a bomb

901
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 7: threat on the on the hot Dog. They called the

902
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 7: police and said that a suspicious man was underneath the

903
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 7: hot dog. Looks like he's planting C four.

904
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: Well, where do you go from sixty five foot hot Dog?

905
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: Because is there anything that you're like, what happens post

906
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: sixty five foot hot Dog? I trust that you have

907
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,479
Speaker 1: crazier ideas. We do have crazy idea yes for sure.

908
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like I.

909
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 6: Said, our brainstorming sessions are really like we'll see who

910
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 6: will let us do it.

911
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 5: I think that's always the question mark, right, Yeah.

912
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 4: I think from here we definitely go into corporate art.

913
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 8: They're going to love us.

914
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: I really can't overstate my debt to Jen and Paul.

915
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: They were so kind to involve me and many other

916
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: hot dog heads throughout this process. So throw your impossible

917
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: dogs on the George foreman as We'll be back in

918
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 1: a second. Baby, Welcome back to sixteenth minute. I'm still

919
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,720
Speaker 1: not vegan somehow, and today we're talking about the sixty

920
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: five foot hot dog in Times Square, and right now

921
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: we're going to talk to someone who's very disappointed that

922
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm still not vegan somehow. Earlier in this episode, I

923
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: mentioned that at the hot Dog Academic summit I spoke at,

924
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: there was a featured talk by a prominent vegan feminist

925
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: and for many the vegan feminist. And I want to

926
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: tell you more about her, because not only do I

927
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 1: find her to be an incredibly cool person, she also

928
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: has unique insight on the Internet. I'm talking about one

929
00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: Carol J. Adams, the author of the now legendary text

930
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 1: The Sexual Politics of Meat, a feminist vegetarian critical theory,

931
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: first published back in nineteen ninety And I know the

932
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: title sounds a little bit intimidating, but I really recommend it,

933
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: and I wish i'd known about it when I was

934
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: writing my book. She talks a lot about the intersection

935
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: of animal suffering with how people subjugate each other. And

936
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: when I saw her speak at the Hot Dog Summit

937
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 1: in town Hall, I was truly blown away. In forty

938
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: five minutes, this extremely funny woman laid bare how meat

939
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: is marketed to us in America, how we're trained to

940
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 1: view it in relation to us, down to the sexualized

941
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: images of cartoon pigs and cows smiling telling us it's

942
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: not just okay to eat them, it's what they want

943
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: us to do. And where does that sexual visual language

944
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: come from an advertising the way that we're conditioned to

945
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: see women be objectified. The cartoon of a sexy pig

946
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 1: and a bikini on the side of a food truck

947
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: carol tize the suffering and murder of animals, to the

948
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 1: idea that Westerners are sold that animal meat is inherently masculine,

949
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: that consumption is masculine, and objectification is feminine. She's cooking

950
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 1: in this book, and the most famous concept from the

951
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: sexual politics of meat is the concept of the absent reference.

952
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 2: That's defined as behind every meal of meat is an absence,

953
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 2: the death of the animal whose place the meat takes.

954
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 2: The absent reference is that which separates the meat eater

955
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 2: from the animal, and the animal from the end product.

956
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 2: The function of the absent reference is to keep our

957
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 2: meat separated from any idea that she or he was

958
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 2: once an animal, to keep the moo or cluck or

959
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 2: ba away from the meat, to keep something from being

960
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 2: seen as having been some one. Once the existence of

961
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 2: meat is disconnected from the existence of an animal who

962
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: was killed to become that meat, meat becomes unanchored by

963
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,760
Speaker 2: its original reference, the animal, becoming instead a free, floating

964
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: image used often to reflect women's status as well as animals.

965
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 2: Animals are the absent reference in the act of meat eating.

966
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 2: They also become the absent reference in images of women bushered, fragmented,

967
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 2: or consumable.

968
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: When I started working on this episode, I knew I

969
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,800
Speaker 1: needed to talk to Carol J. Adams, because not only

970
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: was I deeply moved and motivated by her talk, it

971
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: completely took me off guard. I also then had the

972
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 1: pleasure of walking with her her son Jen, haul Times

973
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: Square Arts and the entire audience over to the giant

974
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 1: hot dog to watch it explode confetti, and when we arrived,

975
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: I'll never forget we got to go into the giant

976
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 1: hollow hot dog together. It was just one of those

977
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: perfect moments. And one of my questions for her was

978
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 1: one of the same questions that the New York Post had,

979
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 1: Why did you, as a vegan feminist, agreed to talk

980
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: at a hot dog convention? And her answer was simple.

981
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: She said that the hot dog in Times Square was

982
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,280
Speaker 1: a vegan hot dog, and she really enjoyed the vegan

983
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 1: hot dogs being served at the event and was just

984
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: as interested as myself and Jen and Paul were analyzing

985
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: the hot dog as a food and as a symbol,

986
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: but Carol looked at it very optimistically. She looked at

987
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: it as a symbol that would be able to grow.

988
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 5: And change with us.

989
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: She's a fascinating person and it's not shocking that as

990
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,280
Speaker 1: a feminist and a vegan activist for the last fifty years,

991
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 1: she's been the subject a lot of unwarranted harassment. So

992
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: I wanted to hear about why she agreed to fly

993
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: from Texas to New York to celebrate a symbol that

994
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: felt far afield from her interests, and then we began

995
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 1: talking about how these harassment techniques from the right have

996
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: a volt in her experience, from the right wing radio

997
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 1: Rush Limbaugh era to Jordan Peterson sending his audience to

998
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: harass and threaten her in the middle of his wait

999
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,760
Speaker 1: for it all meat diet that almost killed him. Carol

1000
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: has seen it all, and I wanted to hear more. Wait,

1001
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 1: there's because I've had a carrot dog before, but not in.

1002
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 7: Well.

1003
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,839
Speaker 8: I liked beans and franks growing up, you know, so

1004
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 8: I do use regular hot dogs.

1005
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: How long have you noticed this like association with American

1006
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:36,760
Speaker 1: men and meat?

1007
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 8: Oh my god, you're not going to believe it. Fifty

1008
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 8: yearsty years ago, I became a vegetarian and I was

1009
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 8: living in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and I was studying feminist studies,

1010
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 8: feminist history, and I started I remember walking towards Harvard

1011
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 8: Square thinking about all the associations that I thought, Oh

1012
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:04,879
Speaker 8: my god, there's a connection between med eating and masculinity,

1013
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 8: and you know, I sort of felt like I'd levitated.

1014
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 8: And then I started collecting examples and information and as

1015
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 8: you know, writing a book. You can't just have good material.

1016
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 8: You have to know what you're trying to shape and say,

1017
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 8: and what was my theory about that? So that took

1018
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,439
Speaker 8: fifteen years, and when the sexual politics of meat came out,

1019
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 8: I thought, oh, well, now I'm done with that. What

1020
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 8: else am What am I going to do next? But

1021
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 8: people started sending me examples, and since nineteen ninety I

1022
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:42,439
Speaker 8: have gotten examples from around the world that connect meat

1023
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 8: eating and masculinity, photos, quotes, ads, you know, just the

1024
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,919
Speaker 8: sort of chalk misogyny. If you're walking down in La

1025
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 8: Street and there's a restaurant and they're selling you know,

1026
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 8: burgers or something, but the burger has very shapely female

1027
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 8: legs with high heels underneath it. You know, that's an

1028
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 8: example of chalk misogyny. So you know they're here today,

1029
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 8: gone tomorrow. But there are examples of how it penetrates

1030
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 8: throughout our culture, this assumption. And you know, then you've

1031
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 8: got vegan men who have to how do they respond

1032
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 8: to breaking the stereotype.

1033
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 1: Meat is so often sexualized from this very male gaze perspective,

1034
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: publicly presenting the experience.

1035
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:31,800
Speaker 5: What was the initial reaction?

1036
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,800
Speaker 1: Has the reaction changed over time?

1037
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 8: There. Perhaps we could say there are three different reactions,

1038
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 8: predictable reactions. The first reaction is this is an example

1039
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 8: of whatever the right wing calls liberal principles at that time.

1040
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 8: So with Rush Limbaugh, this was an example of political

1041
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 8: correctness gone too far. And now this would be this

1042
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 8: is wokeness gone too far, or this is the radical

1043
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 8: left going too far. Can you believe that this person

1044
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 8: is saying there's a connection between meat eating and masculinity

1045
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,399
Speaker 8: like this, I call that category loud mouse and blowhearts.

1046
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 8: But as I discuss in the New Introduction, and as

1047
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 8: I discussed at the Hot Dog Summit, this got more

1048
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 8: intensified after Obama was elected president that somehow the idea

1049
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 8: of an African American man being president just set the

1050
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 8: right wing into such a tizzy. And how do they

1051
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 8: express it. One way they express it white supremacy. It's

1052
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 8: so fascinating, is claiming of drinking mam million milk and

1053
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 8: meat that. And so you saw this discourse sort of

1054
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 8: very non ironic in response. So that's one. The second

1055
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 8: is say vegan men or liberals, well, yeah, there's a connection,

1056
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 8: but they don't want to call it the second politics

1057
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 8: of meat. They don't want to politicize it. It's just

1058
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 8: whatever it is. You can look at recent articles about

1059
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 8: these sort of carnivore diets and they're dripping with testosterone

1060
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 8: in their discussion of these men. But it's all non politicized,

1061
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 8: like it has no relationship to the fact that feminists

1062
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 8: and LGBTQ people have gained a foothold that you know,

1063
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 8: you've had an African American president. There's no recognition that

1064
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 8: this could be a reaction to a sort of sense

1065
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 8: of insecurity that's occurred, especially with white men. So that's

1066
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 8: the second, and then the third vegans and animal rights

1067
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 8: activists when the book came out, they were just so

1068
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 8: excited because my book made sense of the idea that

1069
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 8: caring about animals is part of its social justice agenda.

1070
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 8: It put with it a social justice activism framework, the

1071
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 8: fact that we can look beyond the human species.

1072
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 1: Because you know, the book came out and you came

1073
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 1: to prominence. Free internet being widely adopted. Has the Internet

1074
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 1: had a meaningful impact on how your work is received?

1075
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 8: Let me first say the Internet had an impact on

1076
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 8: how I received information from my readers, so that when

1077
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 8: the book came out, my publisher started receiving packages of things,

1078
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 8: you know, sexist t shirts about animals. I've got a

1079
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 8: whole box. It could be a museum exhibit. The turkey hooker,

1080
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 8: which was is a hook that you hook a dead

1081
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 8: carcass with to pull it out of the pad that

1082
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 8: you've cooked it in for Thanksgiving. It's like a joke gift,

1083
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 8: but it's called the turkey hooker, and it shows a turkey,

1084
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 8: you know, seductively raising her leg again. As I said,

1085
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 8: you know, the only time animals are supposed to have

1086
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 8: a desire is after their death, when they desire to

1087
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 8: be consumed. So all of this started coming to my publisher,

1088
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 8: and then that forwarded to me. Once there was Facebook

1089
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 8: and Twitter, if they knew I was on there, that

1090
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 8: hashtag that at me. But they could also just hashtag

1091
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 8: sexual politics of meat. So for like ten to twelve

1092
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 8: years on Twitter, all I had to do was search

1093
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 8: sexual politics of meet and there were all these examples,

1094
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 8: so I never had to go trawling through this sexist

1095
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 8: apparatus that operates as culture because somebody else saw it

1096
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 8: and they always said, we're so thankful we could send

1097
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 8: it to someone who could make sense of this. So

1098
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 8: how it affected me. I mean it also means that

1099
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 8: people who disagree with me can find me. You can

1100
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 8: email me from my website. I participated in an Oxford

1101
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 8: Union debate in twenty twenty one. Oxford Union sponsors all

1102
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 8: these debates, and this one was this House must move

1103
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 8: beyond Meet and there were three of us defending it

1104
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 8: and three people against that. And one of the people

1105
01:00:55,440 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 8: against it was Jordan Peterson's daughter. And Jordan was in

1106
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 8: the audience. Jordan Peterson, the Canadian right wing successor to

1107
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:11,439
Speaker 8: Rush Limbaugh, you know, from Loudmouth to blow Hard, and

1108
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 8: his daughter came up with the Mikayla I should give

1109
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 8: her a name, not just associator with her father. Mikayla

1110
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 8: Peterson came up with the Lion's diet and it is

1111
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 8: truly just meat. I mean, it's we all ate together.

1112
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 8: We were at the head table and I was on

1113
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 8: the other side of the oxygen did president and I

1114
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:34,240
Speaker 8: watched him, you know, it was I understand that they

1115
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 8: ordered a very specific weight exactly how it should be cooked.

1116
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 8: Apparently could also treat vodka and water, but that's all

1117
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 8: they had. They had that had that as their appetizer

1118
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 8: and then they had it as their main course, and

1119
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 8: they sent half of it back. He sent half of

1120
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 8: it back. In fact, I took a photo of it

1121
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 8: because I was so shocked. If you know exactly how

1122
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 8: much you're eating, why do you order extra? Anyway, Joe

1123
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 8: Rogan was Joe Rogan was also foul that. So when

1124
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 8: Jordan Peterson went on Joe Rogan a couple months after

1125
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 8: the debate, he could not stop talking about my ludicrous ideas.

1126
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 8: From his point of view, you know that I connected

1127
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 8: it to white supremacy and masculinity and how I must

1128
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 8: not be loved and what a lonely person I was

1129
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 8: and this so I think this so excited the Oxford Union,

1130
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 8: who they'd videoed our conversations. They immediately released them and

1131
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 8: then they said, as heard about on the Joe Rogan Show.

1132
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 8: So the minute Peterson had that, he posted that to Twitter,

1133
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 8: you know, the Left going too far, and that's all

1134
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 8: he had to do. That set all his followlers in motion.

1135
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,919
Speaker 8: They you know, went to the YouTube website and then

1136
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 8: they commented, and then they commented. I think there's probably

1137
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 8: twelve hundred comments at this point, and I started a

1138
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 8: file of it. Where is it hostility?

1139
01:02:59,120 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 5: Hostility.

1140
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 8: Wow, it's amazing that you think you are educated. You

1141
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 8: either got your diploma from the Internet or you're just stupid.

1142
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 8: Wikipedia has more correct facts and what you presented. Oh

1143
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 8: my god, you need a mental health check asap. Your

1144
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 8: theories are made up and unscientific. Everything you say is

1145
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 8: designed to draw attention to yourself, et cetera. Please go

1146
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 8: take a nap somewhere subject f you stupid c. You

1147
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 8: would not be where you are today if it wasn't

1148
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 8: for men. Okay, get that. And it's not because we

1149
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 8: stole power. It's because that's the way things naturally went down.

1150
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 8: You get that, you stupid fing c.

1151
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 5: Oh my god.

1152
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 8: I just wanted to let you know I find you

1153
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 8: a total and other basque case, a nut job extraordinary.

1154
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 8: You medam or cancer upon this world. The world needs

1155
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 8: urgent chemo treatment for mentally disturbed people like you. Anyway,

1156
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 8: you get the idea. Yeah, And the thing is that

1157
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 8: Peterson knows what he's doing all he has to do,

1158
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:04,919
Speaker 8: and so that's the you know, we know how many

1159
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 8: women have been ducked and all the attention that's that

1160
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 8: comes on women who who challenge conventional ideas. I mean,

1161
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 8: these aren't even you just never can predict who they're

1162
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 8: going to attack. I kind of wish they could spell

1163
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 8: and make a syntactical sentence. It would be more interesting.

1164
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 8: And then you.

1165
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 5: Get there's something to engage with at that point.

1166
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, but I don't answer them. So I think also

1167
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 8: it gives people a chance to find me get more

1168
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 8: information if they want to know about the reference I've noticed,

1169
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 8: like when The New York Times discusses my ideas, now

1170
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 8: there'll be a link to that section of my website.

1171
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 8: I just heard from someone who could not find my

1172
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 8: Texas sheet cake recipe and you know, begging me please,

1173
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 8: I need that Texas Sheetcake recipe, please please. So I

1174
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 8: never know you know what I'll get in my inbox.

1175
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 8: And I love that it's made me available. I've just

1176
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 8: heard from someone who wants to translate the work into Indonesia.

1177
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 8: So's it's made contact with like a Serbian women center

1178
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 8: that wanted to translate it. It's sped up contact. But

1179
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 8: I think it also created the possibility that you could

1180
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 8: be in touch with an author who mattered to you,

1181
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 8: or an author whose work changed your life. But I

1182
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 8: also learned that courage is simply stepping forward, and the

1183
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 8: courage you get from the first step gives you the

1184
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 8: courage to take the next step. We weren't going to

1185
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 8: back down, so I just had to find that courage.

1186
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 8: And you only have to kind of go through that

1187
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 8: sort of experience once and be on the other side

1188
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:52,280
Speaker 8: to realize these people don't like my book. Okay, don't

1189
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 8: like it, but you don't like it, and you've got

1190
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 8: to talk about it non stop like Russia Limpa did

1191
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 8: one summer non stop. I mean he could not stand it.

1192
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:04,520
Speaker 8: I thought, you've got an issue, Gui, and it is

1193
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 8: so great.

1194
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're the one living in his head. Rent Free.

1195
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 8: I think I'm an optimist. We're not going to achieve everything. God,

1196
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 8: I've bet a vegetarian for fifty years at a vegan

1197
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:22,080
Speaker 8: for you know, thirty five or something. Just keep marching,

1198
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 8: keep making good vegan meals, keep making care of dogs,

1199
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 8: keep serving people, keep not calling attention to what they're eating,

1200
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 8: and let them incubate it later. It's not impractical.

1201
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 5: Thank you so much to Carol J.

1202
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 1: Adams, who is quickly becoming a hero of mine, and

1203
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 1: please read The Sexual Politics of Meat and follow her

1204
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: work at Caroljadams dot Com and so sweet listeners wherever

1205
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:53,919
Speaker 1: you are. I hope you try a plant based hot

1206
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 1: dog this season, because a hot dog is a symbol,

1207
01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:00,919
Speaker 1: and a symbol should be consumed very carefully. Hell, even

1208
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 1: Joey Chestnut is sponsored by Impossible Dogs Now, so anyone

1209
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 1: can make a change, even me. And if you're interested

1210
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 1: in more about hot dog lore, you can grab my

1211
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 1: buck Raw Dog, The Naked Truth about hot Dogs, or

1212
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 1: watch my favorite piece of hot dog media ever, Rick

1213
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 1: Seabeck's a hot dog program on PBS, which is celebrating

1214
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 1: its twenty fifth anniversary this year. I really hope you

1215
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode. This is my favorite topic in the

1216
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 1: entire world, and I'm so thrilled that hot dogs once

1217
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 1: more became the main character. And so for a moment

1218
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 1: of fun today, here's some audio I recorded at the

1219
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 1: hot Dog in the City closing ceremony on June thirteenth,

1220
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 1: after we did a comedy roast of the hot dog

1221
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,520
Speaker 1: in the one hundred degree weather and the confetti came

1222
01:07:47,080 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 1: for one last time, n you.

1223
01:08:16,800 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 5: Yeah Way. L sixteenth Minute is.

1224
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 1: A production of pol Zone Media and iHeart Radio. It

1225
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: is written, hosted, and produced by me Jamie Lostus. Our

1226
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 1: executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans. The amazing

1227
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:24,360
Speaker 1: Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our

1228
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 1: theme song is by Sad Third Teamians and pet Shout

1229
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: outs to our dog producer Anderson, my Kat's Flee and Casper,

1230
01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:35,600
Speaker 1: and my pet Rockbird, who will outlive us all Bye.