WEBVTT - Hormone Replacement Therapy: Part One 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:09.360 Greetings listeners in the podcast verse, This is it could 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:13.760 happen here the podcast about things falling apart and sometimes 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:17.280 how we can put stuff back together. I'm Garrison Davis 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:22.080 are Resident Gender mess In the past few weeks, we've 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:25.079 been talking a lot here on the show about the 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:29.320 escalating war on trans people and queer folks in general. 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.639 There's been a wave of bills making any gender affirming 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.720 healthcare of felony for people under the age of eighteen, 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.519 which forcibly detransitions teenagers and multiple states, and we've had 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.840 a lot of banning trans people from participating in sports 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.200 and trying to ban books and discussion in schools about 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.159 the just the existence of queer people at all. But 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:52.519 today we're not really going to be talking about that. 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.080 We've talked about that plenty for the past few weeks. 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:57.080 It's good to have a little little bit of a break, 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.360 but we'll still be talking about stuff around trans people. 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.000 Because with all the discussion around gender affirming healthcare, I 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:05.600 thought it would be a good idea to put something 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:10.720 together talking about what HRT or hormone replacement therapy actually is, 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.160 as since it's the most common form of trans healthcare 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:18.000 and since many states are trying to or already have 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.839 criminalized it, perhaps I can use the POD to point 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.959 people towards alternative means of receiving care, you know, in 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.959 the vein of the putting stuff back together side of 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.959 the show. Now, I want to clarify upfront that we're 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:37.400 not giving anyone medical advice, obviously. I'm just making observations 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:41.360 and talking about things as they exist, um and talking 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:43.520 about things that many trans people have been doing for 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.199 a long time, and that includes d I Y HRT. 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.600 My doctorate program is in parapsychology, not medical science, so 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:54.640 just keep that in mind. First, I will quickly clarify 0:01:54.680 --> 0:02:00.600 what HRT or hormone replacement therapy actually is for specifically 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.160 non CIS gender individuals, because HRT as a term is 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:08.880 also used for CIS women to describe similar but different treatment. 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:13.520 So HRT as a form of gender affirming treatment is 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:17.639 when someone receives sex hormone medication that produces a number 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:22.560 of desired secondary sex characteristics. There are two broad types 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.720 of hormone therapy that one would receive, depending on what 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.440 direction you want to go in gender of wise, there's 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:35.560 feminizing hormones and masculinizing hormones. Feminizing hormones produce more typically 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:40.480 feminine traits, right, big big shocker there. Uh. It usually 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.600 consists of a form of estrogen, usually called estradial. There's 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:48.520 different types of estradial, and also it can include anti 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:55.200 androgen's aka a testosterone blockers. Masculinization therapy consists of taking 0:02:55.200 --> 0:03:00.480 to sasterone or androgen's and then also less commonly anti strogens, 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.440 but usually just tinking to toss your own will suffice. Now, 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.919 I'm no expert in hormones despite my weekly shot, but 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.600 lucky enough I was able to sit down with an 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:15.160 actual expert on hormones and talk over zoom. So what 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:19.600 follows is segments from our conversation. I guess first, do 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:24.440 you want to introduce yourself? Sure? I am the Reverend 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.800 Dr Victoria Luna B. Grieve. I am an assistant professor 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:30.919 at the University of Pittsburgh School of Pharmacy. My primary 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:36.520 clinical focuses on gender affirming hormone therapy, other kind of advocacy, 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:39.000 work in queer healthcare, and I do a lot of 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.360 other stuff on the side. Heatigo g Ludac, instructional design, 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.960 game design, just anything that strikes my fancy really fun 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:50.240 fun stuff in with within kind of our our coverage 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.200 of trend stuff the past few weeks and months, it's 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.680 been mostly on like the bills and like the politics 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.280 side of things. I definitely had some people like reach 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:04.440 out and be like, okay, but how like why why treads? Gender? 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.120 Why why hormones? Like why are hormones actually important? Like 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.240 could you actually explain like what, like you know, with 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:13.640 all of these all these states banding hormones, let's I 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:15.840 would like to kind of explain why it's such a 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.640 big deal and like how much these things actually are 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:23.599 like life saving medication for so many people. Yeah, so 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:28.800 why are hormones? I love it because it's a question 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.000 that as like a species, we've been we have known 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.960 the answer to for like five thousand years. It's it's 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:41.000 very funny, but um, hormones are. Okay. A big part 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.320 of this requires to like acknowledge something that is very 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.880 wrong in in like the medical literature. There's a lot 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:52.119 of elements of healthcare that are coordinated between like male 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.560 and female, and there's a kind of like obviously is 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.240 a little so there's a lot of I mean like 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.599 from like from people's I know, when trans people talking 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.039 about interacting with the medical system, it's always like, oh, yes, 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:08.920 we're gonna be doing this bullshit, Yes of course. Yeah, well, 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.040 but it even goes to it like a really deep level, 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:12.479 like if you're in the hospital and you get a 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.279 CBC count, there's a male profile and a female profile 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.320 of what your hematocrit should be on, like what the 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:20.880 level of red blood cells are, and and the general 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.279 understanding and like the health industry is that there's a 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:28.160 biological anatomical difference between them. And for the longest time, 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.320 certainly in this country, trans women would have would be 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:35.280 compared against the male profiles. But but it's nonsense. It's 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.360 actually should be thought of in form of hormone dominance, 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:42.760 because the vast majority of medical differences are not anatomical, 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.400 they're hormonal, and and that right there should should give 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.040 the game away, which is really funny, which is why 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.880 it's why I kind of hate the term biological woman 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:54.920 whenever people start using that, because that's not really how 0:05:55.000 --> 0:06:00.640 biology works. Yeah, I mean that Oak is my my 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.719 nesting partner. My fiancee wishes that she could be a robot, 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:05.839 and then if she were to do that and upload 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:07.919 her brain into an immortal robot body. She would no 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.400 longer be a biological woman, but she would still be 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.000 a woman. It's just cybernetic. Um. I hate that. It's 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.720 like organic. Organic just means it has carbon in it. Like, 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:23.719 give me a break. Yes, so yeah, hormones, what's what's 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.120 what's the deal do they? Because I know all of 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:28.760 people will be like, well, all of these trends, people 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.960 sure do seem sad. I want that's how how how 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.839 can we make things better? Does this thing actually work? Uh? Well, 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.240 so it's somewhat multifactorial. I have a friend who does 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.640 um sell imaging, and her like working theory, which I'm 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.039 a little dubious of, is that like the brains of 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.120 trans people like have receptors for hormones that the body 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.520 doesn't make, and we should think of being transgender is 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:56.159 having like a form of hypogonadism. Yeah, there's there's a 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.400 lot of different trains of thought there in terms of 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.719 the different theories of why trends people exist and how 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.719 it's like you know, the girl's brain, boys body, blah 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.320 blah blah blah blah, which all, if you dig deep enough, 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:11.280 goes back to eugenic. So it's all, yeah, I've always 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.640 not liked that model. I've always it's always I've always 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.040 found it to be a little bit uncomfortable because I 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.520 take hormones because I want to, And I don't think 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:24.200 it's because my my my brain is like secretly looking 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.920 for girl receptors or something like, right, I totally agree, 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.600 Like it also requires a certain like extremely binary understanding 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:34.880 of gender, which I also do not ascribe to. So 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.840 it's a very like odd thought. But putting aside all 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:39.280 of that, if you just wanted to look at the 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:45.160 like why people want hormones, Because when a person who 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:49.920 wants hormones gets the hormones they want, their suicidality goes down, 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.720 their anxiety, depression goes down, gender dysphoria, if we wanted to, 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:56.800 you know, talk about the problems with that, essentially like 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.720 goes away, uh, and they get this to get treated 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.520 like the way they want to be treated in society. 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:05.440 So from the if if you want to look at it, 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.960 not from like the causes, but from the results, giving 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:12.800 gender affirming hormone therapy to a person who is requesting 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:18.640 gender afforming hormone therapy has a success rate. The rate 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:22.800 of regret from starting hormones is one percent or less, 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:27.560 which is unbelievable in the health care field, like like 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.120 having a child, like biologically giving birth has a seven 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:35.760 percent regret rate, Like the idea of any therapy having 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:42.120 that high of a rate of preventing death, anxiety, depression, bullying, 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.480 like all of the different effects. Being that successful should 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.240 be like a miracle. It should be looked at as 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.959 the thing we in healthcare are like should do absolutely ethically. 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.439 Uh and it it is is so much more complicated 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:01.680 than that. So like hormones from the results obviously makes sense. 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:05.720 It aligns your bodies shape and like fat fat deposits 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:07.240 and the way that you feel, the way that you 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.520 relate to your emotions. It all goes back to the 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:15.640 way that hormones work on your body. And there's there's 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.360 like the old saying that like assis person would never 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:22.280 want to try gender forming homerone therapy, So like, if 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.360 you have the in if you want to try it, 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.440 you should be allowed to try it. I mean, like 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.160 you're you're kind of a good example right here, Like yeah, 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:32.679 but I'm sitting Yeah, if you're sitting around a bar 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:34.920 with a bunch of like CIS guys and you're like, hey, 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.080 who wants some estrogen? They would all like shrink away 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:42.480 from it, Like no, absolutely, because yeah, it's definitely a thing. 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:46.600 Like I'm not the most dysphoric person, but I'm like, sure, 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.040 I'll take estrogen. That sounds fun. That's like, it's like that, 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.520 that sounds like a thing that I could enjoy watching 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.360 my body change. And I'm you know, it's it's I'm 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.199 happy that we're moving more towards that and not having 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:02.360 to deal with, oh, I'm so dysphoric, i want to die, 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:04.720 which is obviously they're a big thing for a lot 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.800 of people. I'm not I'm not minimizing that right um. 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:09.600 But also a lot of trans people have had more 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.640 kind of complicated feelings on gender, whether they're like gender queer, 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:16.040 non binary. Having the past had made it more difficult 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:17.959 to get gender firm in care because they don't fit 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:23.280 into those specific like male female boxes as easily. M Well, 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.960 and what you're talking about is really something that's relatively recent. 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.920 The idea of gender euphoria, like the idea that people 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:34.480 want to take because it gives them joy to like 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.680 dress or act or feel a certain way, and that 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.480 I mean, health care is all about, at least up 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:44.560 until well, the reality of health care is that it 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.680 is all about finding problems to solve and not really 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:52.120 looking at like your life just better in general. Yeah, exactly. 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.080 So you know, I know plenty of people who started 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:58.440 hormones of any type just because they felt it would 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:00.679 make them happier, and they were correct, And that gender 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.199 euphoria is just as good of a reason to take 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.079 it as the dysphoria. The problem ends up in how 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:10.360 the medical industry treats it, because dysphoria quote unquote is 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.760 something that's long. Oh my gosh, I could go into 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:14.559 the whole history of that if you wanted, but I'm 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:16.319 sure we could talk about the ds M four and 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.200 five for a long time. Oh it's so frustrating. I 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.439 spend I spend a two hour session in my Queer 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.520 healthcare class, specifically just dunking on the ds M five 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:29.680 definition of gender dysphoria. Um. But the real problem is, 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.679 like this focus on this negative quality and how that 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:37.120 actually damages a lot of the conversations around uh, gender 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.640 firming hormone therapy and trans people in general. Like, instead 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:44.679 of seeing it as like this manifestation of people like 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.800 truly taking control of their lives to become authentic in 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:51.920 like the truest way, Like you have never met a 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:55.640 more truly well uh self made man than a transman 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.040 who gets hormones. Like it's I mean it's and it's 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.400 still something where even we're not quite at the at 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.880 the gender utopia, I mean obviously because of all of 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.880 the anti tran stuff, but even even on like just 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.800 purely purely the medical side, like I even for for 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.440 informed consent, um, I still needed to get diagnosed with 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.280 gender dysphoria at the informed Consent clinic in order to 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.280 get hormones, which is in part like an insurance thing, 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.199 and you know it has has all of these all 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.480 of these bullshit reasons. Um, but that is that is 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.880 something we're still we're still definitely dealing with, Oh my goodness. Yeah. 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.400 And the better informed care clinics are the ones that 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.400 they realize it's just like an effort in box ticking. 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:38.559 So they're just like, Yep, sounds good. You came here 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:40.800 to this clinic and you asked about hormones. Sounds like 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.640 gender dysphoria to me, Like we'll sell your insurance whatever. 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:56.120 We gotta say. Yes, eventually we'll go into like hormone 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.120 blockers as well. UM. But I want to talk about 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.559 there's a lot of this. There's a lot of rhetoric 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.360 that's been we're growing for a long long time about 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:11.760 the extremely damaging, irreversible effects of of hormone replacement therapy um, 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.480 and how they're gonna permanently alter your biology. If you 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.720 give these two children and there's five year olds taking 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.920 testosterone and it's gonna like you're like, You're like, really 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:25.200 that sounds very scary. UM. So that's something I would 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:27.000 like to discuss. It's like because a lot of people 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:29.679 when we when we do we talk talk about hormones, 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.360 they think of it as this like big, extremely life 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:37.000 altering thing um that has like these you know, irreversible 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.040 effects on your your your bones are gonna get weak 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.400 and trivel to never and never get big again, and 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:46.880 all of all of this very scary stuff. Um. What's 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:51.240 up with that? I think a lot of it goes 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.559 back to that biological essentialism, because hormones, even for the 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:59.600 people who give them, are considered partially like reversible. Because 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.680 the mid majority of the things that happen one take 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.960 a long ass time, like you will know whether or not. 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.400 This is a good idea for the majority of people 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:14.000 well before the physical manifestations occur. Uh. And and considering 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.200 like one of the biggest problems we have with certain formulations, 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.320 like in the once a week or once every other 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.360 week injectable version of estrogen, By the time you get 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.160 to right before your next dose, your estrogen is so 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.440 low you're feeling it and it's starting to like reverse 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.200 some of those So like, if you're feeling it after 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:36.840 two weeks, how irreversible could it be? Uh? And some 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:40.320 of it depends on like eight timing, because if we're 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.080 talking about a person who has say, already gone through 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:47.240 a testosterone mediated puberty, then some of the things are 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.480 just not going to be affected. You can't change like 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:53.160 bone size, height or anything like that. There's some interesting 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.960 things about like hip uh, like flexation and and and 0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:01.120 and pivoting and yeah actually yeah and and and even 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.240 like shoe sizes can can change because of the way 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.560 the ligaments work on hormones. But like the bones aren't 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.520 going to change once they're done growing. But that's sort 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:11.000 of where the puberty blockers come in that we can 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.480 we'll talk about later. Um. But for the for the 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.560 majority of people, if you are going through if you 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:18.960 have gone through a puberty that you did not want, 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.080 you can take hormones to go through puberty you do 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.880 want and get the effects that you do want. And 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.440 some of the elements sure, like you know, growing breasts 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.120 uh guna coomastia as we would call it, an assist man, 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:38.280 which is another whole nonsense. Um, is not irreversible, Like 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.760 you can have them removed if you decided that you 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.400 needed to, like de transition, which is a whole another story. 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:48.240 But even then it takes like five years to see 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.080 their final breast size. Like if you if you're on 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:55.600 hormones for five years and you're worried about the irreversible 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.400 quote unquote effects, like what are we doing here? I mean? 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.760 And even I've heard from a lot of my elder 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.200 trans friends that whenever they go off hormones sometimes their 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.800 breasts just kind of go away because they're not massive 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:11.200 to begin with. Like if it's generally generally generally you 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:17.280 don't get the massive, massive honkers immediately. Um. I know, 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.280 I know we're trying, um, but a lot of a 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:21.960 lot a lot of even the you know, that was 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.640 one of the big things that informed content thing was like, 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:27.760 you know, a lot of these changes are reversible except 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:29.840 for breasts. These are these are these are these are 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.640 permanent change. Be careful and all my transferends are like 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.160 a little bit. But I like, your nipples won't shrink, 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.040 Like your nipples will definitely be bigger, and that that 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.440 won't change. But a lot of like the size actually 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.760 does fluctuate, and I can even tell that on like 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.080 depending on if I like missidos or something, being like 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:52.280 oh yeah, like there is a lot of a lot 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.960 of fluctuation even like on like you know, like temperature 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:59.360 and stuff. How cold will determine how how how how 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.320 how my chest looks it is? It is, uh, it's 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.240 pretty fun. I mean, I am I just like the 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.280 bio hacking thing in general. It is like the cyberpunk 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.320 and me um. But yeah, I guess I guess we 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:15.760 could talk about hormone hormone blockers as well, because this 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:17.080 is the other kind of thing you hear a lot 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.720 about when conservatives are very scared about transpeople. The idea 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:26.440 of hormone blockers like making people infertile or making permanent 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:31.960 changes to children's health or something. Blah blah blah blah blah. Gosh. 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:36.000 That's the thing that is like really really frustrating for me, 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:41.800 specifically because puberty blockers, the ganada trope in the g 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.639 n r H antagonist and agonists, which have been around 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:49.480 for like long time, but like ever for for I 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:51.000 want to say it was like a hundred years, but 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.560 I might be misquoting something that I'm half remembering, but 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:56.480 they've been around for like a really long time to 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:58.560 the point where we have generics and in the in 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:01.720 the pharmaceutical industry, that means that it's been like decades 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:05.399 at the very least, something that had rigorous testing that 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:09.800 has an indication with the FDA for precocious puberty, which 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.119 just means a person who is usually SIS who for 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:17.160 whatever reason, has puberty at a very young age. With 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:19.840 some of the some of the specific cases that I've 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.840 seen that I've that I've looked into, um involved giving 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.000 puberty blockers to like a three or four year old 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:27.960 because their body is trying to undergo puberty. So even 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.879 the idea of like, oh, well, I don't know this 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:33.200 twelve year old being on a puberty blocker for three years. 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.720 That sounds very dangerous when we have a person over 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.320 here who was on it for fifteen years with no 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.840 ill effects, like like no long lasting ill effects. Um 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.080 that the idea of anybody describing it as like experimental 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:52.359 is absolutely a historic outside of the realm of reality. Yeah, 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:56.240 there's it's it's basic anti anti intellectualism, because yeah, we've 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.680 been giving sis children hormone blockers for a long time 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.440 for early onset puberty, and it turns out they work 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.280 and they're pretty safe. So yeah, maybe we should give 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.000 those two trans kids too if they want them. Uh, 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:10.960 it seems like something we could at least try and 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:13.960 see if it improves mental health. And then it's it's 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:15.200 not even a matter that we have to try it. 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.600 We've been doing it for like almost ten years. Like 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:21.200 the it was first I think it was like two 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:23.679 thousand thirteen. There's a there's a ted talk I use 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:25.760 in my class of a of a physician who like 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:29.640 pioneered the use of puberty blockers in trans kids and 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.840 showed that any trans kid who got puberty blockers and 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.200 then was allowed to undergo the puberty that they desired 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.560 at an appropriate age, which is actually like fourteen fifteen 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.199 at the same time as their peers. UM. But even 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.680 if they had to wait till eighteen, the psychological effects 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:49.440 of having an in appropriate puberty are essentially nullified. They 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.680 are otherwise psychologically and physically like identical to their their 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.719 CIS gender peers. So it's like we have actual evidence 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:02.760 that it is extre really beneficial and extremely worthwhile. And 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.879 like the one kind of long term side effect is 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:08.719 you might be up to an inch shorter than you 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:12.959 otherwise be, which is a wildly like problematic like study 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:14.960 that was done because like we don't have time machines 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:16.720 to know whether or not that work, Like what would 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:21.120 your control group be? UM, And it's just wild. It's 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.040 very bothersome to me because a lot of the gender 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.920 affirming hormone therapy, the evidence is all over the place 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:30.160 for a variety of political reasons and and historical reasons. 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:36.119 But for hormone blockers, or for puberty blockers specifically, the 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:42.800 evidence is like really solid, really strong. And this is 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.119 the question I actually have because I'm actually unfamiliar with 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:47.879 this specific thing. But yeah, if you give like um, 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:52.760 hormone blockers to like a kid who's tend they still 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:56.399 kind of like grow at the same rate as a 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.960 lot of as a lot of their peers. And then 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:02.439 is that it just it's it's this specifically like the 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:08.119 secondary sex characteristic changes that get put on pause. Um, 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.960 but there's just so much Yeah, there's just so much 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:14.080 fear around the whole. Even even just the hormone blocker 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:17.560 thing right when we're getting you know, just like prescribing 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.680 hormone blockers being like a felony offense in multiple states. 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:24.720 Now you're like, it's like, it's it is just an 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:29.000 extreme degree of anti anti intellectualism, just like just like 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:37.040 purposeful like ignorance, um and just extreme hatred and uh bigotry, 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.480 and it's it is uh, I mean yeah, it's a 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:45.359 I'm kind of speaking to the choir here, but but 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:47.159 but but that's the trick. And and even like the 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:49.600 purity blocker thing, like you were saying, your body will 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:52.960 still make human growth hormone, you will still grow, it's 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:56.200 just that the modulation of that with say testosterone, which 0:21:56.240 --> 0:22:00.600 would increase the overall growth like just doesn't there. And 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:04.399 people say make a lot of you know, talk a 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:08.160 lot about the idea of um bone mineral density because 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:12.200 you don't have testosterone or estrogen, which are both necessary 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.040 one or the other necessary for your like bone mineral 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.679 density to not like have like easily fractured bones, but 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:20.960 like you don't even have that until you go through puberty. 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.640 If you're just like preventing one puberty, the endogenous puberty, 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:28.960 and then providing the hormones for an exogenous puberty, they're fine, 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:32.600 Like they have the hormones they need, their bones are happy. 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:46.359 Uh So, yeah, I look to talk about I guess 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:50.679 kind of access to hormones and in like the like 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:54.119 the different models of of obviously we're not giving up 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:57.919 medical advice, but like this access to hormones and the 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:01.400 different ways that people can go about that now through doctors, 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:04.760 through informed consent um and all of all and all 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:10.240 of that jazz. Yeah. So the informed consent model is 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:14.320 a much more recent option, and it's not available everywhere. 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:16.520 I have a friend in Texas we had to find 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:18.400 a clinic that was like two hours away to get 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:20.760 her hormones. But here where I live, we actually have 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:23.720 to informed consent clinics. So it's pretty convenient, but it 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:27.280 varies wildly by by region. Uh And the informed carre 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:29.520