Speaker 1: I do like taking on an underdog, because if you
Speaker 1: think about an underdog who's coming from behind, there's no
Speaker 1: sort of physics, sort of math equation where if you
Speaker 1: do things at exactly the same speed and the same
Speaker 1: way as someone who's ahead of you, that you're going
Speaker 1: to catch up and surpass.
Speaker 2: That's our guest today Marissa Thalberg, chief customer and marketing
Speaker 2: officer at Catalyst Brands, where she oversees a portfolio that
Speaker 2: includes American icons like J. C. Penny and Brooks Brothers.
Speaker 2: You may also know her from her time at Taco Bell,
Speaker 2: where she helped turn the fast food chain into a
Speaker 2: lifestyle brand, or from earlier roles in beauty and luxury retail.
Speaker 2: Marissa has built a career on navigating change, and right
Speaker 2: now the retail landscape is anything but static. But that's
Speaker 2: one of the reasons we wanted to talk to her,
Speaker 2: because while these brands are working to reclaim cultural relevance,
Speaker 2: Marissa isn't one to back away from a challenge. In fact,
Speaker 2: she says she likes taking on an underdog because if
Speaker 2: you want to leap ahead, you can't just run the
Speaker 2: same race as everyone else. Today's show is a masterclass
Speaker 2: in resilience, modern leadership, and finding clarity and complexity. I'm
Speaker 2: furnished to Rabi and this is leading by example executives
Speaker 2: making an impact. Marissa Thalberg, Welcome to Leading by Example.
Speaker 2: I know it's a busy time for you, and we
Speaker 2: appreciate you spending some time with us.
Speaker 3: Happy to be here, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Let's just start with a little bit of what's happening
Speaker 2: in the world in the news. How is all this
Speaker 2: uncertainty impacting your day to day and some of your
Speaker 2: leadership right now? I am sure it's, as they say, unprecedented,
Speaker 2: But is anything ever unprecedented?
Speaker 1: Is anything ever precedent? Is really the question is there
Speaker 1: such a thing? I mean, it feels like have we
Speaker 1: ever really had a dull moment that point in business
Speaker 1: and life? And certainly it doesn't feel that way, especially
Speaker 1: having had a lot of now time in various forms
Speaker 1: of retail and the pressure of that. So the economic
Speaker 1: decision making right now or environment has definitely put a
Speaker 1: whole set of uncertainty, fear, confusion, and real concerns about
Speaker 1: implications too.
Speaker 3: How to run a business right now with just.
Speaker 1: A whole set of new curve balls shall we say,
Speaker 1: but you have to take a mindset as a leader
Speaker 1: since well, I want to generalize this to leadership versus
Speaker 1: the specifics of the business.
Speaker 3: That is life.
Speaker 1: There's always going to be curveballs, and I've tried to
Speaker 1: teach my own daughters this that if I've learned anything
Speaker 1: in my career, the hardest thing, but probably the most
Speaker 1: important thing, has been resilience. And it has been shown
Speaker 1: through social science to be the number one characteristic that
Speaker 1: drives success. Not socioeconomic bad, not educational background.
Speaker 3: But if you have grit, as.
Speaker 1: Angela Duckworth famously called it, or resilience, that really matters.
Speaker 1: And so how do you, as a leader indoctrinate your
Speaker 1: team and build that into your culture without creating chaos,
Speaker 1: Without creating panic?
Speaker 3: My leadership style is to be real about it.
Speaker 1: I really don't like when leaders have made me feel
Speaker 1: like they're infantilizing you. Of course, it doesn't mean everyone
Speaker 1: needs to know everything at all times. But trust comes
Speaker 1: out of authenticity. And that's true for me as a
Speaker 1: marketer and how I build a relationship with consumers. It's
Speaker 1: also true for me as a leader and how I
Speaker 1: build relationships with teams and colleagues.
Speaker 2: Sounds like in some ways you might be looking at
Speaker 2: what's happening right now as an opportunity to cultivate that grit.
Speaker 2: That is something that I don't think you're necessarily born with.
Speaker 2: And you have really proven to be very good at pivots.
Speaker 2: You've gone from beauty to re tale to fast food.
Speaker 2: I was thinking of what would be a fun like
Speaker 2: alliterated poetry to that, like from tool kids to touch
Speaker 2: ups to supreme Tacos, so a vast range of industries.
Speaker 2: I'm curious, though, is there one or a notable common
Speaker 2: theme that you have found stays true for marketing within
Speaker 2: these industries?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Definitely, And for me that's been the fun lesson in
Speaker 1: all of it that I now try to impart to
Speaker 1: other people.
Speaker 3: It was, in a way a self taught lesson.
Speaker 1: I mean, it seemed crazy to people when I went
Speaker 1: from luxury beauty to fast food, and it felt a
Speaker 1: little crazy to me. The interesting thing was I was
Speaker 1: so preoccupied with what felt a lot scarier, which was
Speaker 1: disrupting and uprooting my family.
Speaker 3: We were lifelong New Yorkers.
Speaker 1: That was our consistency, and the move to Taco Bell
Speaker 1: also meant a geographic move to California. So in some ways,
Speaker 1: because that that was so scary to me in terms
Speaker 1: of what it meant for my family, that I actually
Speaker 1: didn't fixate as much on oh my god, how am
Speaker 1: I going to do this?
Speaker 3: Like what do I know about QSR?
Speaker 1: And the answer was I didn't know anything about QSR
Speaker 1: going into it. So it was humbling, but also a
Speaker 1: learning opportunity of how do you come in as a
Speaker 1: leader to an environment that's new and whether it's always
Speaker 1: as drastic as that, there's always newness, so you have
Speaker 1: to be, even as a leader, humble, And I don't
Speaker 1: think that's a word that we associate often with leadership.
Speaker 1: We think of leaders as you're there because you're expert
Speaker 1: and you're confident. But I actually think it's the dichotomy
Speaker 1: of humility and confidence that serves modern leaders well because
Speaker 1: the world is such that none of us are masters
Speaker 1: of everything, none of us. And what the advantage of
Speaker 1: being an outsider, a newcomer is is it gives you
Speaker 1: this opportunity to look at us a situation with fresh
Speaker 1: eyes and see a situation differently than someone who's been
Speaker 1: in it for so long that you lose that sort
Speaker 1: of new b perspective. So I've said, that's a limited
Speaker 1: time only gift those fresh eyes. Once you're on the
Speaker 1: inside for a while, of course, you lose that and
Speaker 1: you trade it for more institutional knowledge. So I have
Speaker 1: really tried to take these lessons that I've realized that
Speaker 1: I've cultivated for myself in making these leaps and thinking
Speaker 1: about what it means for all of us and what
Speaker 1: we can all take from it, And that's definitely one
Speaker 1: of them.
Speaker 2: I really like what you're saying about giving yourself permission
Speaker 2: to be humble and admit what you don't know, because
Speaker 2: I don't think that's always it's not allow, you know.
Speaker 2: I hear about friends with skepticism. There's, oh, this new
Speaker 2: leader's coming in. They don't know anything about financial services,
Speaker 2: they used to work in sports, as like, give them
Speaker 2: some time.
Speaker 3: What is it about our culture?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a little bit of a challenge what
Speaker 2: you're saying, to be able to demonstrate that you're still
Speaker 2: learning even when you're at a position of top leadership.
Speaker 2: Have you ever experienced pushback? Have you ever walked into
Speaker 2: a room where you're the newbie?
Speaker 3: Of course?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And how do you navigate that because I think
Speaker 2: that it sounds great to be able to do that,
Speaker 2: but in practice can feel like there is resistance to that.
Speaker 1: Well, it's very hard to make blanket statements because things
Speaker 1: are situational and contextual. I can say all of these
Speaker 1: things and they're real and they're meaningful, and you wind
Speaker 1: up in an environment with a certain amount of toxicity
Speaker 1: or bad people and none of these things apply. Sometimes
Speaker 1: situations do not create the conditions for success, and that's
Speaker 1: also a very hard lesson to learn and often a
Speaker 1: painful one. And if you put yourself out there enough,
Speaker 1: inevitably you might find yourself in one of those situations
Speaker 1: along the way, and that's where the resilience part comes in.
Speaker 1: But putting that kind of situation aside, I actually believe
Speaker 1: that what we're talking about are kind of two sides
Speaker 1: of a coin of why do those things happen? Fear
Speaker 1: and what's the antidote to that is transparency, which builds trust.
Speaker 1: So that to me, is the way to do it. Listen,
Speaker 1: if you are not confident as a leader, that's going
Speaker 1: to get exposed. So if you're only humble, if you're
Speaker 1: only asking questions, if you're not contributing, then obviously the
Speaker 1: equation is way way off. But if you're coming with
Speaker 1: the right bigger picture thinking as a leader, or the vision,
Speaker 1: the strategy, the ideas, the upside, but also saying, you know,
Speaker 1: explain to me how this works because I don't know
Speaker 1: or have we ever considered doing it that way or honestly,
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. I'm going to
Speaker 1: get back to I'm going to learn it. I think
Speaker 1: that actually is confidence of building, not confidence diminishing, because
Speaker 1: that means when you do say you know something, I'm
Speaker 1: going to believe you because you've shown that you're not
Speaker 1: just trying to cover it up or posture, always have
Speaker 1: all the answers. That is where the interesting dynamic of
Speaker 1: where do we find trust and without trying to make
Speaker 1: a larger political statement, we've seen part of the erosion
Speaker 1: in trust in civic and governmental leaders is we don't
Speaker 1: really believe them most of the time. They might have
Speaker 1: the confidence, but do they have the trust. No, because
Speaker 1: just because you're confident, if you're not credible, if you're
Speaker 1: not showing oh I don't know this or I do
Speaker 1: know this, or we're going to find a way that
Speaker 1: extends to corporate and business trust too, and frankly trust
Speaker 1: and just we as human beings and how we interact
Speaker 1: in the world right.
Speaker 2: Honesty, transparency builds trust and for better or words, it's
Speaker 2: something that is a standout these days, and doubling down
Speaker 2: on that can go a very long way.
Speaker 3: I want to get.
Speaker 2: Into your career understanding the inner workings of being a
Speaker 2: chief marketing officer, Marissa. Maybe we could start with having
Speaker 2: you just sort of explain how you understand your role,
Speaker 2: what you feel to be your biggest mandate in this
Speaker 2: role as chief marketing officer.
Speaker 3: Yeah. What I love in my.
Speaker 1: Current role is the title is chief customer and marketing officer,
Speaker 1: which look, titles are titles, so I only take so
Speaker 1: much meaning out of it. But what I do think
Speaker 1: is important about that is it's a dueling of saying
Speaker 1: you actually are the leader who has to feel a
Speaker 1: certain definitive ownership of the customer, of the consumer and
Speaker 1: understanding them and building the right relationship and of course
Speaker 1: thinking about how that all ties to business goals. And
Speaker 1: for me, that's the perfect confluence of call it marketing,
Speaker 1: brand communications, all those functions which I feel are very
Speaker 1: much a part of my world all ties to making
Speaker 1: people feel and behave and do things in a way
Speaker 1: that's favorable and building a relationship that enables that. So that,
Speaker 1: to me is a really nice way of talking about
Speaker 1: what marketing is. A lot of people are going to
Speaker 1: give you a definition that is based on the functional
Speaker 1: and the tactical parts of it, But when you strip
Speaker 1: it down, we're storytellers. We're storytellers, and we're telling in
Speaker 1: a way that makes you understand something differently, makes you informed,
Speaker 1: makes you care, makes you excited, makes you feel something.
Speaker 1: I mean like, I feel like our world has become
Speaker 1: so jargony and so technical that having a competency and
Speaker 1: all that is critical to be able to do the
Speaker 1: craft of it well in the modern world. But stripping
Speaker 1: down to what is this role meant to do? That
Speaker 1: for me is as good of definition as Eddie.
Speaker 2: Did you decide that that you wanted to add customer
Speaker 2: into the title? Did that pre date you? How did
Speaker 2: that come about.
Speaker 1: Me? And as we were forming this role, especially in
Speaker 1: the context of now having created this merger so it's
Speaker 1: a multi brand organization, and thinking about what that meant
Speaker 1: and I actually, to be honest, had some real dialogue
Speaker 1: with my boss, our CEO on what we should call it,
Speaker 1: and I like the word growth, and that was probably
Speaker 1: the only other debate. And these are all tricky titles
Speaker 1: in the sense that does any one person own growth?
Speaker 1: And in a way the right answer should be everyone ow,
Speaker 1: it's that responsibility for growth. But the specificity and the
Speaker 1: appropriateness of customer was something we both agreed made a
Speaker 1: lot of sense and had been in that title before,
Speaker 1: so I quite like it. Thinking of the customer, what's
Speaker 1: working right now in terms of connecting with customers? Is
Speaker 1: there an era right now that we're in when it
Speaker 1: comes to the best sort of marketing strategies tactics. You say,
Speaker 1: we live in a very diverse world, but it's also
Speaker 1: very scattered, you know, in terms of connecting with the customer.
Speaker 3: It used to be like three avenues. Now there's three hundred.
Speaker 1: Exactly, tell me how you're doing it.
Speaker 3: It's a lot harder.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for me, it is about an orchestration of different things.
Speaker 1: If only were as simple as just do this one
Speaker 1: thing and that's how it works. Of course, it's not
Speaker 1: a new insight to say we're living in a world
Speaker 1: of complexity and fragmented attention and how you reach a
Speaker 1: customer is unquestionably so much harder than it's ever been before.
Speaker 1: It's also more opportunities to do it. So you think
Speaker 1: about what you think of as traditional advertising channels. There's
Speaker 1: still an absolute role for those, but then brands have
Speaker 1: become publishers too, in that you have a website, you
Speaker 1: have your own channels, you have emailed so you're publishing
Speaker 1: to a content of an audience, and they call that
Speaker 1: owned marketing. And then there's the earn part, which I've
Speaker 1: always had maybe a disproportionate appreciation for, which is how
Speaker 1: do you get others doing your storytelling for you? And
Speaker 1: the earlier definition of that was pr in terms of
Speaker 1: thinking about media outlets writing about you, But now, of
Speaker 1: course social media has changed and expanded what that can be,
Speaker 1: and for me, it's thinking about all of those things
Speaker 1: and then thinking about different customers and where they are
Speaker 1: in their journey. Are they an existing customer, Well, you're
Speaker 1: going to be able to talk to that person very
Speaker 1: differently than someone who isn't your customer yet, So trying
Speaker 1: to say this in a very simplified way, but again
Speaker 1: I actually think sometimes it's important to take the complex
Speaker 1: and make it simple so you can then figure out
Speaker 1: what you want to do about the different parts. Certainly
Speaker 1: from an industry standpoint, lots and lots and lots of
Speaker 1: focus not inappropriately so, on the use of technology and
Speaker 1: the ability to expand how we do that from a
Speaker 1: you know, do you farnwoshe get a different message than
Speaker 1: I get? And that's personalization, customization, and there's role for
Speaker 1: all of that. But it's also important to remember that
Speaker 1: those become tactics. But you still have to have the fundamentals,
Speaker 1: a really good strategy, a really good product or proposition,
Speaker 1: and really good insights about what problem are you trying
Speaker 1: to solve, what opportunity you're trying to paint. So I
Speaker 1: like to get myself grounded in that, get my team
Speaker 1: grounded in that, and then hope that we have the
Speaker 1: expertise is and the curiosity to find new ways.
Speaker 3: To execute that.
Speaker 2: When we come back, Marissa opens up about the moments
Speaker 2: that didn't go as planned, what she learned from bets
Speaker 2: that didn't pay off, how she balances risk with resilience,
Speaker 2: and why she's drawn to brands with something to prove.
Speaker 1: I always say, strategy is choices, which means it's being
Speaker 1: bold enough to say I'm going to do that, but
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do these other things, and that's hard.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we all want to try to make everyone happy
Speaker 1: and do everything.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back. I'd love to.
Speaker 2: Highlight the Live Moss campaign at Taco Bell. You made
Speaker 2: it cool again. Hearing you talk about these strategies, I'd
Speaker 2: love for you to kind of bring those thoughts to
Speaker 2: life by walking us through that brand and the sort
Speaker 2: of reimagination of Taco Bell through that campaign.
Speaker 3: What was your creative process, your strategic process?
Speaker 1: Well, Live mos specifically was a line that predated me,
Speaker 1: so I want to be clear that that was already there.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I think good leaders
Speaker 1: do when you come into a new situation, and part
Speaker 1: of the situation assessment is what do we want to maintain,
Speaker 1: what do we have that's working, and then what needs
Speaker 1: to be changed.
Speaker 3: So job one is.
Speaker 1: Actually understanding what the problem or opportunity is and then
Speaker 1: figuring out your game plan. And that's very much how
Speaker 1: I approach coming into Taco Bell again as an outsider
Speaker 1: to the industry, big learning curve, but it also gave
Speaker 1: me the ability to just sort of assess it holistically
Speaker 1: and without baggage and really look at what was happening
Speaker 1: in culture. How are sensibilities around fast food? QSR is
Speaker 1: the industry term QSR quick service restaurants. So in QSR,
Speaker 1: what was going on? And you know what, here are
Speaker 1: some of the realities. It was an industry with negative
Speaker 1: transaction growth. Think about what that means.
Speaker 3: That means the.
Speaker 1: Industry as a whole. Just to even play the game,
Speaker 1: you're fighting an uphill battle to get your sales to
Speaker 1: be flat two year ago, and what does that mean?
Speaker 1: And this was a few years ago, so things change.
Speaker 1: But at the time, there was a little bit of
Speaker 1: you know, maybe I don't want to just eat burgers
Speaker 1: and fries all the time, Like what you didn't feel
Speaker 1: necessarily proud going to eat fast food.
Speaker 3: So you're looking at that.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's brands and culture and
Speaker 1: the value proposition was important.
Speaker 3: But then saying, okay, well.
Speaker 1: What about Taco Bell, Like there was a cult of
Speaker 1: the brand for sure, but then a lot of cracks
Speaker 1: in the armor in terms of being the butt of
Speaker 1: late night comedian jokes. As you know, the brand that
Speaker 1: makes you go to the bathroom. I mean it's funny,
Speaker 1: but is that really funny? I mean that's not actually
Speaker 1: a good thing. Being able to call those things out
Speaker 1: with clarity and without judgment, just with clarity is to say,
Speaker 1: let's look at this, because all that shapes where we
Speaker 1: need to go. And for me, it very much shaped
Speaker 1: a belief that we had not just an opportunity, but
Speaker 1: a need to separate and elevate the brand from the
Speaker 1: rest of QSR. And there was already, in fairness, discussion
Speaker 1: about that and talking about Taco Bell as a category
Speaker 1: of one. I just want to be really respectful of
Speaker 1: the people that preceded me. A lot of great thinking already,
Speaker 1: but how to maybe do that, and how to put
Speaker 1: the brand in the context of being a culture centric
Speaker 1: lifestyle brand and what that could open up in terms
Speaker 1: of new ways of thinking about the.
Speaker 3: Brand generallying revenue.
Speaker 1: Distinguishing us was very much what you know, I feel
Speaker 1: is the imprint I was able to put on it,
Speaker 1: and it kind of pulminated in doing the Taco Bell Hotel,
Speaker 1: which was in a way this like really cool apotheosis
Speaker 1: of every part of the lifestyle and it sold out
Speaker 1: in two minutes and when you think about what that
Speaker 1: means in terms of brand that you take something so
Speaker 1: ubiquitous you can go a couple miles and for a
Speaker 1: few dollars access Taco Bell. Let's be honest that people
Speaker 1: set up computer banks as if they were waiting to
Speaker 1: get access to the hottest concert tickets. I kid you
Speaker 1: not booked it and spent hundreds of dollars on airfare
Speaker 1: and then staying at the hotel to access the experience.
Speaker 1: That is, to me the business case study in that,
Speaker 1: what does that mean and how does that spill over
Speaker 1: in terms of expanding that cult? And that's just one
Speaker 1: example of many, many things, but especially on a big
Speaker 1: brand like that, it's never going to be one thing.
Speaker 1: It's always going to be a comprehensive strategy that incorporates innovation, value,
Speaker 1: honoring what's core, coming up with new ways of generating
Speaker 1: cultural topspin, thinking differently about partnerships and collaborations. So the
Speaker 1: fun part was getting to figure all of that out
Speaker 1: and having an amazing team to do it with.
Speaker 2: I want to learn more about when you're thinking about
Speaker 2: pivoting a brand, there are investments you have to make,
Speaker 2: and some investments are not going to pay off when
Speaker 2: you're kind of just sitting down for the first time
Speaker 2: to assess the situation, what are the questions that you're
Speaker 2: asking to get closer to the solution. You identified some
Speaker 2: things already where like the media is portraying us in
Speaker 2: this way, we don't like it and we need to
Speaker 2: change that. And that's like one variable. But when you're
Speaker 2: looking at all the ways that you could potentially pivot,
Speaker 2: how do you narrow it down? I have multiple answers
Speaker 2: as to that. Maybe give me a case study again,
Speaker 2: because I know it's very specific to a brand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm giving you a little bit of one for
Speaker 1: Taco Bell that I then took that thinking with me
Speaker 1: is coming in and creating what I think of as
Speaker 1: an ultimate synthesis of all that stuff. Like you're just
Speaker 1: a sponge from the consumer insights to the marketplace, to
Speaker 1: your own observations, talking to employees, going in that case,
Speaker 1: to restaurant.
Speaker 3: So your job is to synthesize that. That to me
Speaker 3: is the first work.
Speaker 1: So one way of doing that and organizing that is
Speaker 1: to start big and get smaller.
Speaker 3: So big is like culture, like the world at large.
Speaker 1: And then you get a little more narrow and say Okay,
Speaker 1: what about specifically this industry or the category, what's happening there?
Speaker 1: And then you get a little narrower and say the consumer.
Speaker 1: And then at the end of the day, the business itself,
Speaker 1: the brand itself, what's happening there? And when you start
Speaker 1: synthesizing that. For me, when you find the tension points
Speaker 1: in there, that's where you kind of folk and say
Speaker 1: that's where I kind of have to untie that knot
Speaker 1: and go forward. So that's probably the large view at
Speaker 1: the almost existential view with some brands, including where I
Speaker 1: am now, and thinking about them is just saying, are
Speaker 1: we clear on the why?
Speaker 3: I said? It sounds existential, but.
Speaker 1: It's really fun like if you don't pull back and
Speaker 1: get out of your own insider knowledge and say, why
Speaker 1: do people care about this brand, this company, this product?
Speaker 1: Do I know why they care? Or do I have
Speaker 1: a good enough reason why they might or could care?
Speaker 3: Today?
Speaker 1: I like to think of that as the ultimate value proposition,
Speaker 1: what's the why? And sometimes it's really clear and other
Speaker 1: times it's not. So For me, that's what I actually
Speaker 1: really enjoy the most is trying to find a way
Speaker 1: forward with a brand that maybe that isn't clear, how
Speaker 1: to make it clear, and then that becomes a strategy,
Speaker 1: that becomes a choice to get everyone a line to
Speaker 1: saying that's what we're going after.
Speaker 3: And I always say strategy is choices.
Speaker 1: Which means it's being bold enough to say I'm going
Speaker 1: to do that, but I'm not going to do these
Speaker 1: other things.
Speaker 3: And that's hard.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we all want to try to make everyone happy
Speaker 1: and do everything.
Speaker 2: Which brings me to a question about a time of tension,
Speaker 2: a time of when you went in big on an idea,
Speaker 2: on an AHA and it didn't quite work, or you
Speaker 2: didn't get buy in. Basically, what I'm asking is, Marisa,
Speaker 2: tell me about a failure, but that was very meaningful
Speaker 2: to you in your career and it was a lesson.
Speaker 3: I mean, I've had lots of things not work out.
Speaker 1: I think the nature of trying something new, by definition,
Speaker 1: it hasn't been done before, so it's not predictable and
Speaker 1: therefore there's risk. But if you don't try some things new,
Speaker 1: it's really hard to have a different effect, and that
Speaker 1: in and of itself is a tension of creativity as
Speaker 1: a way of solving problems. So I think your responsibility
Speaker 1: as a leader is to make sure your risks are
Speaker 1: smart and calculated. And how do you still go forward
Speaker 1: and try something new and swing big but de risk
Speaker 1: So you de risk something by being able. Remember it
Speaker 1: actually goes back to the confidence and humility thing. So
Speaker 1: you go forward using all your best knowledge, all your
Speaker 1: best resources, and you try and you stick with it.
Speaker 1: But you also have to be humble and agile enough
Speaker 1: to say, if something isn't working, how do I readjust?
Speaker 1: How do I course correct or the marketplace changes? Like
Speaker 1: we said at the very start of this conversation, you say, okay,
Speaker 1: how do I change my gameplay? So for me, I
Speaker 1: appreciate but also sort of hate the failure question because
Speaker 1: it all depends what you consider a failure versus as
Speaker 1: many people wiser than me have said, I don't fail
Speaker 1: either win or I learn. I think that is a
Speaker 1: really good mind said. You have to be willing to
Speaker 1: learn and then adjust. So I certainly can give you
Speaker 1: ideas of things I've tried that didn't work exactly the
Speaker 1: way I wanted, But I'd like to think I haven't
Speaker 1: had unmitigated failures because you don't let the business completely fail.
Speaker 1: You find a way to readjust Yeah, what you're saying
Speaker 1: at Echoes. We had Navine Jane on the show.
Speaker 2: He's a serial entrepreneur, and you said, one of the
Speaker 2: biggest misconceptions people have about entrepreneurship, and I think even
Speaker 2: people who are top of their games leaders responsible for
Speaker 2: her teams, is that we leaders entrepreneurs, we love risk,
Speaker 2: we are drawn to risk. And he said, no, Actually,
Speaker 2: the successful entrepreneurs they're really good at de risking. They
Speaker 2: aren't turned off by risk. But it's not to say
Speaker 2: that they just go in blind. You know, their biggest
Speaker 2: job is to if they know what they're doing, is
Speaker 2: to figure out how to do the crazy wild thing
Speaker 2: while not sinking the ship right, keeping the lights on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what I've found myself just saying is recently is yesterday,
Speaker 1: and talking about this is I realize I do like
Speaker 1: taking on an underdog, because if you think about an
Speaker 1: underdog who's coming from behind, there's no sort of physics
Speaker 1: or math equation where if you do things at exactly
Speaker 1: the same speed and the same way as someone who's
Speaker 1: ahead of you, that you're going to catch up and surpass.
Speaker 3: So when you explain that to.
Speaker 1: Your organization, to your stakeholders, your colleagues, and say I'm
Speaker 1: actually trying to de risk the chances that we're going
Speaker 1: to keep doing this and keep not having the impact
Speaker 1: we want to have. Like that's the classic definition of insanity.
Speaker 1: So I feel the mandate is we have to try
Speaker 1: things differently to have an outsize improvement and not be
Speaker 1: as much of an underdog tomorrow as maybe we were today.
Speaker 1: But that's scary, it's hard, and you want to be right.
Speaker 1: Company wants you to be right. So it really comes
Speaker 1: down to that sort of playing. The confidence and the
Speaker 1: agility and the humility, those two things together become very
Speaker 1: important because if you have no confidence, you're not going
Speaker 1: to try and you're not going to do the big
Speaker 1: things that can actually have impact. And if you're too confident,
Speaker 1: then you might not see the signs that you need
Speaker 1: to read that help you adjust.
Speaker 3: As I said, how you play. Thank you for that.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about catalysts. This is your latest role and
Speaker 2: it's a portfolio of retail brands, namely JC Penny Brooks Brothers.
Speaker 2: What excited you about this new role? Retail's tough right now,
Speaker 2: got to say, especially since COVID, the consumer habits have changed,
Speaker 2: manufacturing has changed. Tell us how you're thinking about this job.
Speaker 1: Yeah, retail's not for the faint of heart, I always say,
Speaker 1: and being a CMO is not for the faint of heart.
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment.
Speaker 1: But for me, it was the intrigue first of taking
Speaker 1: an over one hundred and twenty year old brand that's
Speaker 1: an American icon that has lost some of its luster
Speaker 1: and some of its relevance, and realizing that was the
Speaker 1: essence of the opportunity is can you open up more
Speaker 1: hearts and minds to consideration of J. C.
Speaker 3: Penny today? Not because they're nostalgic about it.
Speaker 1: And by the way, there was a core loyal consumer,
Speaker 1: so there's a meaningful business there. I mean, there's over
Speaker 1: six hundred and fifty stores across the US and Puerto Rico,
Speaker 1: But how do you get everyone else to see it
Speaker 1: and see it in a modern light?
Speaker 3: I love that as an opportunity.
Speaker 1: I also make a lot of my decisions based on
Speaker 1: gut and people and relationships, and I just felt an
Speaker 1: immediate affinity for Mark Rosen, the CEO, my colleague Michelle Loslow.
Speaker 3: Who at the time was chief merchandising officer.
Speaker 1: Now in our new portfolio, environment is heading a jcpenny
Speaker 1: business entirely. So it was JC Penny part first and
Speaker 1: that's what I got started with.
Speaker 3: But also knew almost from the beginning.
Speaker 1: That there was a high likelihood that we were heading
Speaker 1: towards this merger and that that was going to turn
Speaker 1: it into a whole different kind of opportunity, which it
Speaker 1: has as of January. So now we're Catalyst Brands because
Speaker 1: we have five other brands that are under our tent,
Speaker 1: which include as you said, Brooks Brothers, but also Aeropostal,
Speaker 1: Lucky Brand, Nautica, and Eddie Bauer. So that of course
Speaker 1: makes for a different leadership challenge, and you're dealing with
Speaker 1: new colleagues, you're creating a different kind of team. You're
Speaker 1: figuring out where there's opportunities to create synergy, but then
Speaker 1: where there's also the ongoing stewardship of each as an
Speaker 1: individual brand of business. So not a dull moment, as
Speaker 1: we said earlier, never a dull moment, but exciting too.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think what I do love about retail
Speaker 1: is for me, it comes down to parts of culture
Speaker 1: and that's the commonality. Think beauty or fast food or retails,
Speaker 1: they are just different dimensions of culture that resonate across
Speaker 1: such big swaths of American life, and being able to
Speaker 1: tap into those needs and insights and opportunities is the
Speaker 1: really interesting and exciting part of the work.
Speaker 2: What is in the zeitgeist right now for the customer
Speaker 2: that's shopping for clothing. I mean, I think you're right.
Speaker 2: Retail has so much opportunity to revive. And you know,
Speaker 2: brands that we thought, oh they're dead, now they're back.
Speaker 2: And sometimes it's from my perspective, I don't obviously work
Speaker 2: at these companies, but as the consumer walking through them
Speaker 2: all or watching ads, it's like, oh, they got a
Speaker 2: great Like Parker Posey is now attached to Gap and
Speaker 2: she has a really cute dance commercial, and like you
Speaker 2: go in the store and it's very vibrant, and you're thinking,
Speaker 2: is this like Gaps having a new moment. Tell me
Speaker 2: more of the science behind that, though, Like what does
Speaker 2: it take sometimes for brands today to reclaim their place
Speaker 2: in our hearts and our wallets when we're going out
Speaker 2: there thinking about shopping for clothes.
Speaker 1: If that were an easy question to answer, everyone would
Speaker 1: be doing it. So there is no singular answer for that,
Speaker 1: and not everyone is able to do it. That's why
Speaker 1: we see brands come and go in the marketplace, in
Speaker 1: the landscape. Take JC Penny. I mean what's exciting is
Speaker 1: this is a brand which has endured. Brooks Brothers the
Speaker 1: oldest retail brand in America. Eddie Bauer, by the way,
Speaker 1: also about one hundred year old brand. So I mean,
Speaker 1: that's incredible when you think about that, because for everyone
Speaker 1: that I name, there are many many others that I
Speaker 1: might have grown up with that are no longer in
Speaker 1: the landscape. So think about that for a second. The
Speaker 1: marketplace obviously has a certain amount of call it hygiene
Speaker 1: or revitalization of new and old and revitalized. But I
Speaker 1: do think there's something really exciting about taking a brand
Speaker 1: that has meaning, that means something to people, that has equity,
Speaker 1: and making sure that there is a value proposition that
Speaker 1: makes it relevant for today. That is interesting to me.
Speaker 1: How you do that has to be individualized to all
Speaker 1: the sets of factors that we talked about earlier. And
Speaker 1: I always say it took a long time for something
Speaker 1: to decline. It's unreasonable to think it's going to be
Speaker 1: a five second turnaround every once in a while.
Speaker 3: That happens.
Speaker 1: But you know they say, like I've been working for
Speaker 1: years to be an overnight success.
Speaker 3: That all added right.
Speaker 1: It's that So for me, it comes down to so
Speaker 1: many of the things we talked about is seeing a
Speaker 1: fresh path forward that is uniquely right for that brand
Speaker 1: or business and then figuring out.
Speaker 3: How to execute to it.
Speaker 2: It's exciting. I love seeing when brands try new things. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and they're not afraid to sort of go on the edge,
Speaker 2: like whether it's a cheeky social media presence or you know,
Speaker 2: aligning with a celebrity model that has a POV and
Speaker 2: isn't afraid to sort of align themse with that.
Speaker 3: I think that's bold.
Speaker 2: And these days, I think going back to what you
Speaker 2: were saying about trust and honesty, I think that carries that.
Speaker 3: That goes back to also what we talked about with
Speaker 3: the customer.
Speaker 1: It's a relationship with either a current or potential customer,
Speaker 1: and so you have to think about are you honoring
Speaker 1: or potentially diminishing that relationship and not all of the
Speaker 1: factors that can build or create that are in your control.
Speaker 1: Things happen, but if you feel good about what you're selling,
Speaker 1: you just made me to find the way to tell
Speaker 1: that story the right way. That to me is in
Speaker 1: a way the ultimate craft of this role, with all
Speaker 1: then the complexity and data science and inputs and factors
Speaker 1: that go into that, but stripping it down to what's essential,
Speaker 1: I think it is about how do you build that
Speaker 1: customer relationship.
Speaker 2: I understand and are an avid mentor, and you particularly
Speaker 2: like to mentor young women professionals. Is there a piece
Speaker 2: of advice that you find yourself giving over and over
Speaker 2: again that is still needed despite maybe all the books,
Speaker 2: all the podcasts, all the things that you wish maybe
Speaker 2: you had gotten as you were starting out in your
Speaker 2: career in largely male dominated industry.
Speaker 1: Well you might know that I found an organization a
Speaker 1: long time ago called Executive Moms. So I feel to
Speaker 1: this day a feer sense of advocacy for women in
Speaker 1: the workplace and particularly moms, because I mean, we've made
Speaker 1: a lot of progress, but in some ways we have
Speaker 1: not made nearly enough.
Speaker 3: So I've spent a.
Speaker 1: Lot of time thinking about being a woman and also
Speaker 1: a mom in the workplace and what that represents, and
Speaker 1: unfortunately it's still not equoitable.
Speaker 3: It's just not.
Speaker 1: And there's so many great things about women and leadership
Speaker 1: that frankly the whole world would be well served to embrace.
Speaker 1: But in terms of mentorship, I always struggle when people
Speaker 1: are like, oh, who are your mentors? Because for me,
Speaker 1: it was never like a specific thing like this person
Speaker 1: is my mentor. I've played a more formal mentor role
Speaker 1: to some people through some formal programs informal ways, but
Speaker 1: for me, I think it was about, over time, building
Speaker 1: a community of people whose examples were inspirational to me,
Speaker 1: whose voices I trusted, traditional business colleagues, and also non
Speaker 1: traditional people who I realized where I wanted to get
Speaker 1: my sense of self from, namely my mom. And I
Speaker 1: know that's tripe, but it's true. And she was not
Speaker 1: a corporate person at all. She was a speech fithlogist,
Speaker 1: she worked, she didn't understand corporate. But I realized the
Speaker 1: older I get, the more the lessons I gleaned from
Speaker 1: her become very important part of who I am and
Speaker 1: what kind of leader I want to be and what
Speaker 1: kind of human I want to be. So that's for
Speaker 1: me how I think about what mentorship was. As I
Speaker 1: think about mentoring others, how do I fill maybe some
Speaker 1: of the gaps that I had is no artifice around
Speaker 1: the idea of mentorship, not coaching, but real conversations like
Speaker 1: what is really going on here? What are you looking at?
Speaker 1: How can we think about this differently? I think probably
Speaker 1: that's the biggest difference for maybe what I would have
Speaker 1: craved earlier on is being able to be like I'm
Speaker 1: really start how do I navigate this? And having the
Speaker 1: right people to really honestly help me with that might
Speaker 1: have been nice.
Speaker 2: Like to be actually heard, you know, someone to listen
Speaker 2: to you, as opposed to just giving you the five
Speaker 2: principles of navigating corporate as a woman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean just sort of feeling safe to talk
Speaker 1: about the really hard, uncomfortable stuff like navigating difficult office politics, ambition,
Speaker 1: decisions about taking risks.
Speaker 3: It feels all very fuzzy to me that earlier part.
Speaker 1: Of my career and who I turned to and where
Speaker 1: I found it. But over time I feel lucky that
Speaker 1: now I just realized there's a whole bunch of different
Speaker 1: people I would turn to in different situations.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: As we part, Marissa, I'd like to ask you our
Speaker 2: last question we ask all of our leaders on leading
Speaker 2: by example, and it is this, what does leading by
Speaker 2: example mean to you, You've given us so many nuggets
Speaker 2: of wisdom throughout the hour, But to synthesize it, what
Speaker 2: would it be? Well, this is a terrible example, the
Speaker 2: thing of as you said that it reminded me of.
Speaker 2: I was such a good student and I always had
Speaker 2: great relationships with my teachers. But I had this one, really,
Speaker 2: really bad teacher in high school who turned out to
Speaker 2: have been quite notorious for having done some problematic things
Speaker 2: that the news, shall we say.
Speaker 3: Oh the news, I'm going to be googling this now,
Speaker 3: are Yeah?
Speaker 1: I remember he famously would say in class. But unrelated
Speaker 1: to that, do as I say, not as I do.
Speaker 1: And I realize that's just an absolutely terrible thing to
Speaker 1: say as a leader. Like no, leading by example for
Speaker 1: me is do as I do, not just what I say. So,
Speaker 1: if I'm expecting you to be a risk taker, I
Speaker 1: have to be a risk taker. If I'm expecting you
Speaker 1: to be willing to say, hey, you know what, I
Speaker 1: don't think this works so well, here's what I'm going
Speaker 1: to do.
Speaker 3: About I have to model that behavior.
Speaker 1: So leading by example is actually being both the executive
Speaker 1: and the person that you would most hope to find also,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, like I'm not perfect by any stretch
Speaker 1: of the imagination, and I don't pretend to be.
Speaker 3: And I think having a sense of.
Speaker 1: Humor is also something that we really need to elevate
Speaker 1: as a value. I mean, we spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time at work, and when I realize what gives me
Speaker 1: joy from work, it is the social connection. It is
Speaker 1: the sense of being part of a team and banding together.
Speaker 3: And if I can't.
Speaker 1: Laugh at myself, if I can't laugh at the absurdity
Speaker 1: of a situation, if I can't laugh at just something
Speaker 1: funny that happened with my colleagues, it really diminishes the
Speaker 1: joy and the ability to take some of the pain
Speaker 1: of the hard parts away. So that for me is
Speaker 1: also leading by example that we can be real with
Speaker 1: each other. We can be funny, we can be warm,
Speaker 1: and we can be serious, and we can toggle between
Speaker 1: all these different things, so long as we're all using
Speaker 1: that as a way to galvanize ourselves even more to
Speaker 1: do the hard work together. And if I lead well
Speaker 1: in any dimens, I hope I'm being true to that.
Speaker 1: And just even that little bit of vulnerability I think
Speaker 1: makes people want to help each other more. And I
Speaker 1: always try to also say, and I learned this, like
Speaker 1: the competitions on the outside, let's try to not make
Speaker 1: it here, and that doesn't always happen in some environments,
Speaker 1: but the more you build a sense of we are
Speaker 1: in this together, it's actually what I really love about
Speaker 1: leading teams the most is thinking of it as team sport,
Speaker 1: thinking about how we play together, getting people motivated and excited,
Speaker 1: and not sugarcoating the hard parts, but also allowing us
Speaker 1: to enjoy the good parts, because work is always going
Speaker 1: to be a composition of both.
Speaker 2: Marissa Thalberg, thank you so much for joining us. I
Speaker 2: really appreciated having you and meeting you. Thank you, thank
Speaker 2: you for setting this up.
Speaker 4: Ryan.
Speaker 2: You know, I find it so fascinating how many different
Speaker 2: industries she has worked in, and she said it herself,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't always know what I'm walking into,
Speaker 2: and that's part of the journey, admitting that and marrying
Speaker 2: that though with confidence eventually right asking questions, leaning in.
Speaker 3: She demonstrated that balance really well.
Speaker 2: But it's not every day to get a leader who's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know what I don't know.
Speaker 4: I just love the breadth of her experience and the
Speaker 4: fact that she can speak to so many different brands
Speaker 4: and different environments that she's worked in. And I really
Speaker 4: what stuck with me in this conversation was her quote
Speaker 4: about success being just a matter of physics, that you
Speaker 4: can't catch up going the same speed as the person
Speaker 4: in front of you, and the same speed and direction
Speaker 4: as the person in front of you. I just thought
Speaker 4: that was such a great visual of dealing with success
Speaker 4: and trying to move forward and trying to develop not
Speaker 4: just yourself but your team and as a leader, and
Speaker 4: this idea that you really have to push to get
Speaker 4: to that next level. I really appreciated her insight in that,
Speaker 4: and it really lends to this kind of underdog mentality
Speaker 4: that she talked about coming into programs that already exist.
Speaker 4: She was talking about how dealing with an iconic brand
Speaker 4: like Taco Bell and coming into a program that kind
Speaker 4: of was already up and walking, and how she could
Speaker 4: bring it up into a run.
Speaker 2: Did you know that there was a Taco Bell Hotel?
Speaker 2: I feel like she sped through that and I really
Speaker 2: wanted to go back and ask more about the Taco
Speaker 2: Bell Hotel, which I don't think exists anymore.
Speaker 3: But it was in Palm Springs.
Speaker 4: I would love to stay there. I feel like it
Speaker 4: needs to come back, so I hope someone can follow
Speaker 4: in her footsteps.
Speaker 3: You liked what she.
Speaker 2: Said about success, which I did too, but I also
Speaker 2: loved what she said about failure and how sometimes situations
Speaker 2: do not create the conditions for success. And it's not
Speaker 2: a you problem, it's an environment problem. It's a system problem.
Speaker 2: And at that point when you realize it, it's not
Speaker 2: to say that you have to leave, but it's your
Speaker 2: resilience will be tested at that point and there's no
Speaker 2: sort of right or wrong there. It's like you got
Speaker 2: to just do what feels right, what is possible, try
Speaker 2: all the things, but ultimately, if it's not working, it's
Speaker 2: not working, and that's okay.
Speaker 3: You got to leave then.
Speaker 4: And I loved her recipe to that note about dealing
Speaker 4: with failure and also just trying to find success. Her
Speaker 4: recipe for success being confidence, agility, and humility, and the
Speaker 4: humility I think is the biggest part of just having
Speaker 4: the confidence to push forward even in the face of failure,
Speaker 4: but also the humility in those times of great success,
Speaker 4: understanding what got you there and being able to sustain it,
Speaker 4: and I just thought that that speaks to her as
Speaker 4: a leader, and it's something we can all learn from.
Speaker 2: You know, I've done so many of these interviews now, Ryan,
Speaker 2: and I wonder how often the word humility and empathy
Speaker 2: would have come up twenty years ago if we had
Speaker 2: a podcast called Leading by Example. I think that the
Speaker 2: world and all the things that it has thrown at
Speaker 2: us has made it so now the ethos the culture
Speaker 2: as a leader, it's okay to exhibit all these things
Speaker 2: and then talk about it publicly, to say I don't
Speaker 2: know something, to say, it's important to be cann it's
Speaker 2: important to ask questions as a leader and not pretend
Speaker 2: like you have all the answers.
Speaker 3: To be humble.
Speaker 2: I might be jumping to a conclusion here, but I
Speaker 2: think this is a new ag thing, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 4: And I'm glad that we're in this age of transparency.
Speaker 4: I think it really comes down to folks being able
Speaker 4: to share their authentic experiences, even in leadership roles. That
Speaker 4: it's not just about being the general on the battlefield
Speaker 4: with a stoic face, but instead being a true confidant
Speaker 4: and team member. And that's where that empathy really can
Speaker 4: come from well listeners.
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did.
Speaker 2: If you like what you're hearing, please follow and subscribe.
Speaker 2: You don't miss out on any new episodes, and as always,
Speaker 2: we want to hear your thoughts to make this the
Speaker 2: best show possible, so please leave us a review. In
Speaker 2: the meantime, you can find me at farnush Charabi on
Speaker 2: Instagram and I'm always on the So Money podcast. I'll
Speaker 2: see you next time. This podcast is a production of
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive pduce is Matt Stillo and
Speaker 2: our supervising producer is Nikkia Swinton.
Speaker 3: This podcast was edited by Sierra Spreen.