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Speaker 1: Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions. Welcome back to It

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Speaker 2: Could Happen Here, a podcast about it happening here, which

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Speaker 2: is normally focused on the United States because that's where

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Speaker 2: we all live. However, we do like to cover the

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Speaker 2: rest of the world and the ongoing struggle against the

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Speaker 2: global far right movement. And today we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about a place that we don't cover often on this show, Ireland.

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Speaker 2: And it's not because Ireland doesn't have a problem with

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Speaker 2: the far right, because as our guest today is going

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Speaker 2: to talk to us about it, most certainly does. And

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Speaker 2: so I would like to welcome to the program a

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Speaker 2: great guy, Padre O'Rourke, author of Burned Them Out, A

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Speaker 2: History of Fascism and the far Right in Ireland. Thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for being on the show.

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Speaker 3: No problem, delice to be here, Thanks very much, Robert.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, there's this attitude, and I think, as

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Speaker 2: you noted in some note use of the long, there's

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Speaker 2: a degree to which it's true that Ireland has some

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Speaker 2: resistance to the far right that has led to maybe

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Speaker 2: it growing slower or taking a little longer to get

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Speaker 2: off the ground to the same extent that it has

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Speaker 2: in the UK or the US as a result of

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Speaker 2: kind of the history of Irish republicanism. That that's not

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Speaker 2: comprehensively true across the island, and that that's you know,

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Speaker 2: certainly has not stopped it from having some pretty significant problems,

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Speaker 2: which we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Sadly, as long as fascism has existed since Mussolini's

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Speaker 3: March on Rome and his political rise, we have had

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Speaker 3: fascist groups here of one sort or another. Yeah, We've

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Speaker 3: had fascist groups in Ireland that were pro British and politics,

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Speaker 3: fascist groups in Ireland that were pro Irish or Irish independence.

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Speaker 3: You know, obviously we were neutral during World War Two.

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Speaker 3: We weren't occupied by Nazi Germany or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: We did have one very big fascist group here in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen thirties, the Blue Shirts, who were extremely violent

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Speaker 3: and got sixty eight members of Parliament elected. They were

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Speaker 3: the main political opposition. They were kind of the largest

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Speaker 3: non governing fascist organization in the world per capita. But

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Speaker 3: as you said, Irish republicanism has kind of inoculated us

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Speaker 3: against a lot of the far right stuff we'd have

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Speaker 3: seen in Britain and Germany and France in the nineties because,

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Speaker 3: you know, while the conflict was going on in the

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Speaker 3: North of Ireland. Basically, if you were an angry young

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Speaker 3: man with very strong patriotic feelings who was given towards

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Speaker 3: political violence, he would probably end up in the provisional IRA.

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Speaker 3: And their politics were very left wing and internationalist. I

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Speaker 3: mean I remember going into their political wing Shinfein's bookshop

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Speaker 3: in Dublin in the nineteen nineties and it was all

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Speaker 3: pictures of you know, yes Er Arafat, and it was

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Speaker 3: pictures of Nelson Mandela and like the Zapatis stays, and

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Speaker 3: you know, it was very much about Irish independence being

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Speaker 3: an anti colonial struggle. You do, of course get like

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Speaker 3: on the opposite side of that, on kind of the

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Speaker 3: loyalist pro British side in the North. You did get

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Speaker 3: as kind of reaction to that, pro British paramilitaries, the

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Speaker 3: Ulster Volunteer Force, the UDA, Ulster Defense Association, the Ulster

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Speaker 3: Volunteer Force, the UVF. They would have linked up with

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Speaker 3: neo Nazi groups like Combat eighteen in England to get guns,

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Speaker 3: to get finances, to get their hands on explosives and

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Speaker 3: things which were easier to get in England than in

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Speaker 3: the North of Ireland. But really we never had a

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Speaker 3: party here, either in the North or in the South

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Speaker 3: that was as successful as groups like the Front National

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Speaker 3: in France or the British National Party in England. But

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Speaker 3: sadly in recent years, certainly in the last ten years,

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Speaker 3: the far right are kind of back. They're alive and kicking,

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Speaker 3: and they're taken to the streets.

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Speaker 2: And so what do you credit that? I mean, it

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Speaker 2: seems like there's a mix of things. First off, you

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Speaker 2: suddenly do have people immigrating into Ireland from elsewhere in

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Speaker 2: the world in significant numbers for you know, the first

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Speaker 2: time in quite a while. And then on the other head,

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Speaker 2: it sounds like there's also the kind of as we

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Speaker 2: see everywhere in the world, the conscious exporting of far

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Speaker 2: right figures and ideas into the country.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Ireland's greatest export was always people, and you know,

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Speaker 3: a fewge Irish American communities in you know, Chicago, New York,

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Speaker 3: you know, all over Irish people in Australia and Canada

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Speaker 3: and England, all over the continent. So in the early

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Speaker 3: you know, twenty tens, we started, like there had always

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Speaker 3: been a trickle of migration and people coming back and forward,

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Speaker 3: like we had some you know, Vietnamese refugees here, we

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Speaker 3: had you know, historically we had Russian Jews coming here

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Speaker 3: and so on escaping programs in Zaras, Russia. But really

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Speaker 3: the first time that we had very large numbers of

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Speaker 3: people coming was in the tw anti teens, and it

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Speaker 3: was things like the Mediterranean migrant crisis, it was people

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Speaker 3: fleeing climate change in Africa, the Syrian civil War, Teleiban

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Speaker 3: in Afghanistan, and more recently, of course Putant's invasion of Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: And the far right have always been these tiny little

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Speaker 3: fringe parties and figures. It was a very active anti

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Speaker 3: fascist group here called Anti Fascist Action Ireland. And anytime

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Speaker 3: these groups tried to organize or take to the streets,

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Speaker 3: they were challenged and they were run off but really

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Speaker 3: what brought them all together Ireland's kind of attempt to

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Speaker 3: unite the right was the COVID nineteen pandemic because we

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Speaker 3: had one of the strictest COVID lockdowns in Europe. You're

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Speaker 3: talking about. Originally you weren't allowed to travel more than

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Speaker 3: two kilometers from your home. That's one of the quarter

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Speaker 3: miles for you Americans. And basically you could go to

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Speaker 3: the store, but other than that, you couldn't, you know,

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Speaker 3: you couldn't travel very far. And of course everyone was

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Speaker 3: locked at home with their with their internet and started

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Speaker 3: going down the rabbit hole. And what we saw was

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Speaker 3: the anti vaxer COVID conspiracy movement took to the streets

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Speaker 3: in Ireland very quickly, and that brought together all of

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Speaker 3: the disparate tiny far right and neo fascist factions. The

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Speaker 3: closet neo Nazis, the anti vaxers, the fundamentalist Catholics like

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Speaker 3: the Society of Saint Pias, the tenth, the sovereign citizen types,

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Speaker 3: you know, the people who were on about five G

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Speaker 3: conspiracies and chemtrails, all got onto the streets, all got

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Speaker 3: active on the Irish left and the anti fascist side.

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Speaker 3: We kind of dropped the ball because we were following

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Speaker 3: the healthcare advice and the cops were quite happy to

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Speaker 3: ignore the far right mobilizing on the street. But there

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Speaker 3: were striking workers like Debenhams and Clearis who'd been striking

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Speaker 3: before COVID struck, and the cops were going up and

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Speaker 3: moving these trade union assan saying, you know, you're breaking

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Speaker 3: the pandemic. So it wasn't released evenly, and you know, suddenly,

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Speaker 3: for the first time during the pandemic, we were starting

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Speaker 3: to see groups of three four hundred far right in Dublin,

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Speaker 3: which doesn't sound like much, but I mean last week

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Speaker 3: there was a march in Dublin City and they had

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Speaker 3: probably around five thousand, maybe up to ten thousand people marching,

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Speaker 3: and that's something we haven't seen here since the nineteen thirties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's such I think an important point. The

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Speaker 2: degree to which, because this is a global issue, the

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Speaker 2: degree to which everyone else attempting to abide by public

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Speaker 2: safety measures during COVID nineteen strengthened the far right because

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Speaker 2: they were out in the streets. It's kind of organizing

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Speaker 2: equivalent of getting to steal a march on the enemy.

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Speaker 2: It makes sense to me that it was because in

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Speaker 2: the US that was interrupted at least by the George

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Speaker 2: Floyd uprisings. But in Ireland, you know, it seems like

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Speaker 2: there was a much more significant period of time where

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Speaker 2: these folks were essentially acting and organizing unopposed, and the

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Speaker 2: police were, when they chose to act at all, acting

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Speaker 2: against folks on the opposite side of things who were

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Speaker 2: organizing during COVID.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like kind of run belong to the police.

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Speaker 3: The cops didn't really start taking action on any of

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Speaker 3: this stuff until I would say it was nearly November

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty three when they had this rally called I

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Speaker 3: think it was called to the Doll or maybe slightly

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Speaker 3: earlier than that, in September twenty twenty three. The Doll

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Speaker 3: is the Gaeacord for our Parliament, and basically the dregs

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Speaker 3: of the COVID movement kind of came together again. You

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Speaker 3: had all these tiny far rice and fascist parties popping up,

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Speaker 3: and the best thing about them is they all get

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Speaker 3: into furier fights. They all start arguing with each other

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Speaker 3: about who's going to be the leader, and they haven't united.

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Speaker 3: But they took to the streets in the autumn in

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Speaker 3: the fall of twenty twenty three, and there was one

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Speaker 3: really violent and disgusting riot outside the outside the Parliament

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Speaker 3: where the far right were throwing bottles of your line

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Speaker 3: at politicians trying to get in, were shouting racial abuse

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Speaker 3: at anybody who wasn't white, who was working in the

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Speaker 3: building as a cleaner or a parliamentary assistant or anything.

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Speaker 3: Any opposition politicians they could see, they were screaming at

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Speaker 3: them in imitation of you guys. And January the sixth,

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Speaker 3: they had built a mock noose and they were using

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Speaker 3: it to hang effigies of politicians. And you also had

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Speaker 3: police cops being attacked for the first time by the

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Speaker 3: fire right. Really there's been one or two other incidents,

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Speaker 3: but it's only when cops started getting attacked by them

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Speaker 3: and politicians were being directly their safety was being threatened,

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Speaker 3: then the cops started to act, maybe in the last

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Speaker 3: eighteen months or so, but it was really closing the

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Speaker 3: stable door about five years after the violent fire right

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Speaker 3: horse had already bolted.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, so I'm kind of thinking here,

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Speaker 2: this is part of why you've started to see, you know, guys,

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Speaker 2: like we started this conversation before being recording talk about

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Speaker 2: Tucker Carlson coming over to talk to Connor McGregor, who's

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Speaker 2: becoming an increasingly large part of this. And I wonder

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Speaker 2: if it's if it's maybe these these different kind of

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Speaker 2: international folks in the international movement sort of sniffing that,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're hoping that the cancer his metastasize, so

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Speaker 2: to speak. I mean, is that kind of what you

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Speaker 2: how you see it?

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Speaker 3: Well, they definitely have an influence here. I mean, the politics,

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Speaker 3: the talking points, the buzzwords that the far right use

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Speaker 3: in Ireland have all been learned from the likes of

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Speaker 3: Alec Jones, have all been learned from watching you know,

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Speaker 3: crazy stuff on Twitter. And it's all American and British

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Speaker 3: far right talking points that are being replayed here. Stuff

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Speaker 3: about the Clergy Plan, stuff about the Great Replacement and

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Speaker 3: so on. I mean, one hundred years ago was the

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Speaker 3: Protocols of the Elders of Zion and now they're just

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Speaker 3: spinning the same conspiracy, same talking points again. Like for example,

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Speaker 3: one of the things we had here was we had

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Speaker 3: a party called the Irish People's Party and some of

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Speaker 3: our campaigners were really fundamentalist Latin mass set of acantas Catholics,

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Speaker 3: and they were going down and protesting about drag queen

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Speaker 3: story time at Irish libraries. We don't even have drag

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Speaker 3: queen story time. Yeah, I have been so inspired by

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Speaker 3: what was happening in America and I just went in

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Speaker 3: and started taking books off the shelves, you know, and

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Speaker 3: anything to do with Annie LGBT Plus team, even basic

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Speaker 3: sex education guides for kid's stuff. That's pretty mild. I'm

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Speaker 3: perfectly happy to give my own my own kids, and

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Speaker 3: I'm not the most woke guy. But they'd start ripping

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Speaker 3: them up, they'd start taking them out of the library,

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Speaker 3: filming themselves burning books at home. It was really crazy stuff.

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Speaker 3: And at that stage again you did get anti anti

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Speaker 3: fascist organizing. But what you kind of get is figures

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Speaker 3: like Connor McGregor being amplified by the likes of Elon

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Speaker 3: Musk being amplified by you know, Tucker Carlson coming over

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Speaker 3: interviewing him, or Donald Trump of course inviting him to

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Speaker 3: the to the White House, I mean the Prime Minister

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Speaker 3: of Ireland, as we'd say, gay like the teacher Mehall Martin.

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Speaker 3: He was invited to the White House on the twelfth

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Speaker 3: of March. But the guy that Trump chose to actually

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Speaker 3: have there on Patrick's dage itself was, of course, Connor McGregor.

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Speaker 3: And McGregor has links to I wouldn't say far right figures,

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Speaker 3: but certainly very populous figures. And McGregor has kind of

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Speaker 3: started he's become God killed, and he started rambling on

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Speaker 3: about you know, rosary beads and the power of Christ

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Speaker 3: and all this kind of stuff. And he doesn't strike

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Speaker 3: me as a particularly religious man. And now with the

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Speaker 3: help of Tcer Carlson, you know, and and Elon Muskin others,

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Speaker 3: he says he's going to run for president, and we

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Speaker 3: have a presidential election coming up here in six months.

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Speaker 3: Did you watch the interview, Robert.

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Speaker 2: No, No, I haven't yet. I caught some clips of

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Speaker 2: it all on social media. Yeah, but I haven't gotten

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Speaker 2: to sit through the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: It's wild. Bears absolutely no resemblance like what Connor puts

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Speaker 3: across bears no resemblance to what's actually happening in Ireland.

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Speaker 3: Like he started ranting about how the police are so corrupt.

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Speaker 3: Element that's true, but he starts talking about how the

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Speaker 3: traffic core, the road cops who give you like speeding

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Speaker 3: tickets and stuff. They're the most violent and repressive and

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Speaker 3: all all this kind of stuff, and it just so

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Speaker 3: happens that Connor McGregor has a string of speeding violations

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Speaker 3: in his sports cars. And then Tucker Carlson chips in

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Speaker 3: and says, Oh, my god, you've got these armed cops

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Speaker 3: and they're they're repressing the Irish people, but they're letting

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Speaker 3: these immigrants do whatever. My dad was a copier for

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Speaker 3: thirty years. My dad was on the border in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventies with the IRA shooting at him and he

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Speaker 3: didn't even get a gun. Our cops aren't armed. But

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Speaker 3: Carlson is just throwing this stuff out being educated about it,

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Speaker 3: and he says at the very end of the interview,

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Speaker 3: McGregor says, Oh, there's been a government kind of hit

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Speaker 3: job on me. They're planning to bring me down. What

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Speaker 3: he's referring to is a civil trial now, not a

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Speaker 3: criminal trial. A civil trial that Connor McGregor lost when

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Speaker 3: he was brought to court for alleged rape and sexual

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Speaker 3: assault and the jury believed he's accuser. A woman called

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Speaker 3: a hairdresser called Nikita Hand, and Connor McGregor was forced

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Speaker 3: to pay damages of a quarter of a million euro

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Speaker 3: to her, plus costs in the Irish High Court, which

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Speaker 3: are about one and a half million euro. Now to

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Speaker 3: you or me, that would be you sum of money.

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Speaker 3: To Connor McGregor, that's nothing. And I have to say,

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Speaker 3: for legal reasons he is appealing it. But the reality

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Speaker 3: is that standing in the way of any political ambitions

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Speaker 3: Connor McGregor has, And we just had here in the

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Speaker 3: last six hours last year. We had a local election

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Speaker 3: for like local councils, a general election, a European parliamentary election,

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Speaker 3: any one of those. All he needed to do was

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Speaker 3: put up one hundred and fifty quid and he could

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Speaker 3: have stood. He would be on the ballot. In fact,

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Speaker 3: under Irish electoral law, he could have stood in every

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Speaker 3: single constituency in the country. And he didn't stand for election.

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Speaker 3: And now he's complaining that he's being debarred from the

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Speaker 3: Irish presidential race and he's not. It's just it's an

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Speaker 3: exceptionally difficult ballot to get on.

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Speaker 4: You can't just.

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Speaker 3: Stump up the money in America and become her party

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Speaker 3: candidate or a writing candidate or whatever. That doesn't work here.

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Speaker 3: You need this sport of a large number of democratically

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Speaker 3: elected politicians to get there. So I think McGregor's relaying

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Speaker 3: is not to get into the presidency, because really he can't.

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Speaker 3: He's not even going to be on the ballot. But

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Speaker 3: I think he wants to be Arland's Arland's answer to

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Speaker 3: Tommy Robinson. And I suppose if Tommy Robinson is the answer,

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Speaker 3: what the hell was the question?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we'll get into that more in a second.

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Speaker 2: I do want to throw to ads here really quickly,

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Speaker 2: and then we'll continue to talk about Connor for a

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Speaker 2: moment we're back. So you say he wants to be

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Speaker 2: the Irish answer to Tommy Robinson, which is such a

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Speaker 2: like I'm a higher man like that. It's odd to me,

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Speaker 2: Like I had kind of I had kind of been

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Speaker 2: worried because we've had so many cases of guys in

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Speaker 2: the United States who start out as these absolute jokes

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Speaker 2: on the far right and then you just see them

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Speaker 2: pick up more and more attention over time, and that

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Speaker 2: was kind of my worry with Connor. But but you're

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Speaker 2: saying you're kind of concerned more that he's going to

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Speaker 2: continue to be like an organizing presence on the far

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Speaker 2: right rather than someone who has much of a chance

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Speaker 2: of picking up actual like political office.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think with Connor it's it's all about his ego,

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Speaker 3: which is probably what you'd expect from an MMA star.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's going to be an element of you know,

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Speaker 3: ego and show voting and kfab and so on. I

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Speaker 3: mean it's interesting and he's interview with Tucker Carlson. He

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Speaker 3: was giving out that the Minister of Education, you know,

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Speaker 3: isn't a teacher, they're unqualified for the job. And the

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Speaker 3: Irish government's Minister for Health isn't a doctor. And it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: what qualifies you to be president Connor? You're a former

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Speaker 3: plumber turned for MMA fighter, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, getting hit in the face. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And we've had ministers of Education who were teachers and

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Speaker 3: ministers of health who were doctors who happened to be

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Speaker 3: totally awful. The reality is like, we have a pr system.

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Speaker 3: We've you know, very democratic and fair process, and we

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Speaker 3: have more than the two parts system here. But I think,

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Speaker 3: like as emerged during the during that Civil Right trial

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Speaker 3: which McGregor lost. You know, he had to admit to

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Speaker 3: his cocaine use during it. He has been sending out

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Speaker 3: kind of fevered I would imagine cocaine fever trip tweets

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Speaker 3: saying as President of Ireland, I have the power too.

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Speaker 3: And it's like, man, the election hasn't even happened yet

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Speaker 3: he's way ahead of himself. He's not going to get

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Speaker 3: in the ballot. He knows that he wants to present it.

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Speaker 3: And I mean the fact that he's even talking about

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Speaker 3: getting in the ballot shows he doesn't understand the constitutional

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Speaker 3: system here, which it's not like Britain. We have a

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Speaker 3: written constitution. It's not that complex if you know the

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Speaker 3: basics of the law. He's never going to get in

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Speaker 3: the ballot, but he wants to present it that he's

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Speaker 3: been denied the opportunity to stand. And unfortunately, what we

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Speaker 3: have around the country is an increasingly violent anti immigrant

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Speaker 3: street movement that whenever these what we call him here

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Speaker 3: ipass in International Protection Applicant services, these IPA or refugee centers. Basically,

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Speaker 3: when these are picked as places of accommodation by the

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Speaker 3: government while these people's applications for refugee status or they

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Speaker 3: have to stay somewhere while these are being examined, you

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Speaker 3: tend to get large protests in towns, villages, cities all

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Speaker 3: over Ireland. Sometimes he's turned quite violent. Sometimes there's been

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Speaker 3: more than thirty arson attacks on these centers. And I

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Speaker 3: think what Connor McGregor ultimately wants is he wants to

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Speaker 3: be able to tour the country attending these protests and

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Speaker 3: having everyone queuing up to take selfies with him and

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Speaker 3: telling him what a great hero he is. And I

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Speaker 3: think that's he's ultimately.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: And he's obviously he's going to grift off the back

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Speaker 3: of it. The guy has money already. But it was

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Speaker 3: so funny this multime multi millionaire being interviewed by Tucker

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Speaker 3: Carlson saying we're going to start fundraising from my campaign.

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Speaker 3: It's like, man, you have more money than you could

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Speaker 3: ever spend on political posters and buyers and adverts. You know.

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Speaker 2: So it almost sounds like this is like a retire

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Speaker 2: plan for him, right, Like he's he's he's clearly past

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Speaker 2: his prime in terms of the getting hit in the

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Speaker 2: face thing for money, and now he's sort of moving

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Speaker 2: on to like drifting off of these far right events

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Speaker 2: and probably traveling just ahead of a series of riots,

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Speaker 2: you know, Like that's that's seems like what's in his future.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean we've had some you know, at

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Speaker 3: the time of an outbreak of rioting in Dublin antimorgan

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Speaker 3: violence which caused twenty million euros worth of damage and

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Speaker 3: you know, trash the city center in November of twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty three Connor and I'm not saying he directly caused it,

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Speaker 3: but he was tweeting at the same time Ireland as

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Speaker 3: a war, yeah, and around the same time he was

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Speaker 3: tweeting like any property that's been taken over by foreigners evaporated.

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Speaker 3: I think really his plan is to kind of if

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Speaker 3: he can represent himself as a political martyr figure. He's

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Speaker 3: hoping that it will overshadow the you know, his loss

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Speaker 3: in the rape case, and he is a course appealing

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Speaker 3: that and claiming he has new evidence and everything. But

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Speaker 3: I think really that's what it's both.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the way

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Speaker 2: far right violence has looked in Ireland like these when

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Speaker 2: these protests have really kicked off, because it seems like

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Speaker 2: there's been this kind of fairly significant acceleration in the

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Speaker 2: last three or four years in terms of it, particularly

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Speaker 2: arsen attacks, and one thing that I was kind of

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Speaker 2: struck by in your notes was the degree to which, like,

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Speaker 2: no one's been arrested for any of these yet.

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Speaker 3: No, what happens. These started around twenty eighteen, so maybe

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Speaker 3: just before COVID you had one or two of them.

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Speaker 3: And my book went to print in December twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: so I stopped counting in December, and by then I

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Speaker 3: had over thirty arson attacks and there hasn't been a

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Speaker 3: single conviction for any of them. So it's when usually

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Speaker 3: former hotels that have been closed down with years are

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Speaker 3: that the government moves in or some local person moves

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Speaker 3: in to renovate them and use them as one of

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Speaker 3: these centers. They'll just go up and smoke in the

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Speaker 3: middle of the night. And I mean, we have all

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Speaker 3: ready a very significant homeless problem here. I mean there's

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Speaker 3: more than ten thousand people homeless in Dublin, both Irish

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Speaker 3: and refugee, and I mean that probably sounds small to

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Speaker 3: someone listening in a big American city. We thought we

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Speaker 3: had a housing crisis when we had two thousand people homeless,

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Speaker 3: and we got more than ten almost fifteen thousand people

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Speaker 3: homeless now. And some of these anti immigrant protesters have

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Speaker 3: actually burnt down homeless accommodation designed for Irish homeless people

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Speaker 3: in the mistake and belief that it was going to

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Speaker 3: be used for refugees. Yeah, so that's their contribution to

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Speaker 3: the housing crisis. You've also seen stuff like attacks on politicians' homes.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes it's just pickets, sometimes it's graffiti. In the case

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Speaker 3: of Martin Kenny, who's an opposition TD, he'd be from

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Speaker 3: shin fein Alrety. Most of your listeners would probably have

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Speaker 3: heard of an Irish Republican, kind of left wing Irish

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Speaker 3: Republican party. There was a refugee center plan for where

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Speaker 3: he lived in Leitrim, and in fairness to he spoke

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Speaker 3: out against it and he condemned what he called, quote

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Speaker 3: the far right ideology that has been peddled in this

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Speaker 3: country about asylum seekers. A week later, he was sleeping

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Speaker 3: in his house with his wife and kids, and his

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Speaker 3: car in the driveway was petrol band was firebombed and

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Speaker 3: they came back a few months later and did it

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Speaker 3: again and he was forced to move house. So arson

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Speaker 3: attacks and politicians homes is something we haven't seen here

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Speaker 3: since the original fascists were around in the thirties as well.

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Speaker 3: And this violence. Again, like as I said, there hasn't

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Speaker 3: been a single arrest. And I give you a perfect example.

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Speaker 3: The title for the book Burned Them Out, is from

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Speaker 3: an event that happened in February twenty twenty three. A

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Speaker 3: guy stood up in front of a Garda police station

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Speaker 3: here in Fingles, which would be a big suburb of Dublin,

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Speaker 3: and there was a huge crowd of anti immigrant protesters around.

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Speaker 3: One of them was waving a swastika flag and this

431
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 3: guy stood up in front of them with a megaphone

432
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 3: in front of the police station said there is no

433
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 3: point standing here outside of Garda station. The only way

434
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 3: to deal with refugees is to burn them out. Go

435
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 3: where they're fucking staying and burn them fucking cunts out.

436
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,479
Speaker 3: That's a direct quote. And of course, had he been

437
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 3: threatening that violence against the guardy, had he been threatening

438
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 3: that violence against a private business or a politician, I

439
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 3: have no doubt he would have been arrested straight away.

440
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 3: But this you know, masked guy threatening violence in Arson

441
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 3: was just allowed.

442
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 2: To walk off.

443
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 3: So there you go. They're certainly not on the ball.

444
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 3: And we've even had during the COVID pandemic when there

445
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,160
Speaker 3: was a cop nearly killed that had a fireworks shot

446
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 3: at him during one of these riots. The police commissioner

447
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 3: in the South of Ireland, who's formerly a member of

448
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: the Royal Ulster Constabulary, a very controversial pro British police

449
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 3: force that used to be in the North. This guy's

450
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 3: our new police commissioner down south, and he tried to

451
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 3: blame Republicans and the IRA for the violence and left

452
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 3: wing extremists for the violence that was happening. And it

453
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 3: was so clear that you know, Republicans, Irish Republicans have

454
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,360
Speaker 3: been on the streets opposing these people and their marches

455
00:23:58,359 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 3: for years.

456
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. Like the

457
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 2: actual organizing of the anti fascist movement in Ireland, how

458
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: is it kind of responded to the mean explosion in

459
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 2: some cases a literal explosion in far right violence on

460
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 2: the street, Like are you seeing it kind of reach

461
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 2: like new Heights or does it kind of seem like

462
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: it's unprepared for the moment that we're hitting, because, like

463
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: I mean, in the United States, it's kind of hard

464
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: to tell because things have changed so much since twenty twenty, right,

465
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: Like a lot of the fascist violence that we're seeing

466
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 2: is now explicitly from the state, and so there's just

467
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: not a lot of on the ground. There's not the

468
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: same kind of on the ground response to it that

469
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 2: you were seeing when it was groups like the Proud Boys.

470
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 2: And I'm wondering kind of how things have changed since

471
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen in that regard in Ireland.

472
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 3: I suppose, like if you think back as far as

473
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, Tommy Robinson, friend of the Pod, attempted to

474
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 3: organize He's Anti Islamic, He's Islamophobic Pigida movement right to

475
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 3: launch a branch of it in Dublin, and they couldn't

476
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 3: even get to their rallying point because there were five

477
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 3: thousand anti fascists on the street there against them, Irish Republicans,

478
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 3: Irish language activists, Muslim community from Dublin were their LGBT activists,

479
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 3: and they couldn't even get to have their events. So

480
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 3: up until COVID, certainly the anti fascists and groups like

481
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,959
Speaker 3: Anti Fascist Action Ireland were excellent at closing down small groups.

482
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 3: You have a lot of people who are doing online

483
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 3: research and exposing these people sorted histories and their international connections.

484
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,479
Speaker 3: So that's one thing we're pretty good at. And what

485
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 3: it turns out is that a lot of these guys,

486
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: like one of the main proponents of the QAnon conspiracy

487
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 3: theory here was a guy called Rowan Croft who just

488
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: happened to be a former British Army soldier. So that

489
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 3: doesn't fly too well in Ireland from somebody standing up

490
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 3: saying I'm a gait Irish patriot and I'm going to

491
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: stop the foreigners, Like, well, hang out a minute. When

492
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 3: you chose to fight in the military, you chose to

493
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 3: serve the Queen of So you have big national groups

494
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 3: like Anti Fascist Action, you have groups like Anti Imperialist

495
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 3: Action Ireland. Thankfully, as these protests have sprung up around

496
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 3: the country, these fair right, anti imigrant protests, they have

497
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 3: always been countered. And I'm thinking of in Cork City

498
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: when the library was being attacked and it actually had

499
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 3: to be closed down for a period, and it was

500
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 3: the first time that the Cork Library had closed since

501
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 3: the British burnt it down during our revolution in the

502
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 3: nineteen twenties. And you know, you had a crowd of

503
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 3: maybe one hundred far right and people on the opposite side.

504
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 3: The anti fascist scene kept building and building until by

505
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 3: the end, and I was there for some of these protests,

506
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 3: we had four or five hundred against them, and eventually

507
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 3: we decided, right, we're going to stand and protect the library.

508
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 3: And that happened in another places like Limerick, and it

509
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 3: happened in Dublin, and eventually the far rights said, well,

510
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 3: we can't even get near the library to have our

511
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 3: protest anymore, and they dissipated. One thing that's very interesting

512
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 3: here is the optics and sometimes on the lefts and

513
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 3: on the anti fascist side, we're not as good at

514
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 3: the imagery and the using new technology and stuff. And

515
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 3: one thing you'll always see is, you know, when anti

516
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 3: fascists are mobilizing in Ireland, you know they'll have often

517
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 3: red flags, they'll have the Palestinian flag, they'll have Irish

518
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 3: left wing Republican flags like the plow and the stars.

519
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 3: But often we don't carry our national flag the Try

520
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 3: color as much. And of course the far right love

521
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,959
Speaker 3: fetishizing flags and they have the green, white and orange

522
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,719
Speaker 3: Irish Try color everywhere. Often. Of course these people are

523
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 3: so ignorant they fly it the wrong way around and

524
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 3: it's the orange, white and green, so it's like vive

525
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 3: lookout Divoir. It's the Ivory Coast flag if you have

526
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 3: it the wrong way. But it's interesting in some of

527
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 3: the clashes you'll have anti fascists with the Irish flag

528
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 3: and fascists with the Irish flag. But I think just

529
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 3: in terms of optics, it sometimes looks very bad when

530
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 3: the far right are able to clip out a section

531
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 3: of the opposing crowd and say, look, they have Palestinian flags,

532
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 3: they have all other LGBT Pride flags, but they're not

533
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 3: proud to be Irish. They don't have Irish fla and

534
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 3: there could be some Irish flags kipped off at the stide.

535
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 3: So these people in the far right are very good

536
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 3: at using the history of Irish politics and resistance to Britain,

537
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 3: and using the imagery of that struggle and co opting it.

538
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 3: And I think it's very important that we on the

539
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 3: on the anti fascist side don't surrender any of that

540
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 3: to them. And I mean the Irish flag what it

541
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 3: stands for. The green bit is for Catholics who wanted independence,

542
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 3: the orange bit is for Protestants who wanted to be

543
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 3: linked with Britain, and the white ones for peace and unity.

544
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: So it's a flag that and it's for the essence,

545
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 3: you know, talks about respecting a religious minority of people

546
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 3: from a colonial or immigrant background who arrived here a strangers.

547
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, well I want to I want to continue

548
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: this discussion and then close things out. But first we've

549
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: got one more ad break to do and we're back.

550
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, I kind of wanted to end this by

551
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: looking into a like what are you kind of looking

552
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: for in the future, like in the in the kind

553
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: of the next year or two in Ireland, like you,

554
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: what are you expecting? What are you worried to see? Like, yeah,

555
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: what do you kind of see? Cut moving forward here.

556
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 3: I think what's tending to happen now is genius out

557
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 3: of the bottle and far right messages spreading. And you

558
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 3: had this big far right rally of you know, ten

559
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 3: thousand and five to ten thousand people at its maximum

560
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: that came down O'Connell Street in Dublin, the main street

561
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 3: in the capital city. It's not huge by political standards,

562
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 3: but it is worrying. I think we're going to see

563
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 3: that grow. And I think on the left sometimes and

564
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 3: particularly in the trade union movement, we have this idea

565
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 3: that all this is a flash in the pan and

566
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: will organize a few big rallies and they'll go away.

567
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 3: They won't. This is like the National Front in Britain.

568
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: You know, these people are going to be around haunting

569
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 3: Irish politics for least a decade, and then they're never

570
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: going to fully go away, that they'll pop back up again.

571
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,719
Speaker 3: I think we're going to continue to see the regional protests,

572
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 3: and I think as well we have started seeing the

573
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 3: Irish government, which is a coalition of two center right parties,

574
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 3: kind of tighten up their own language on immigration. We're

575
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 3: starting seeing an increasing number of deportations as well. The

576
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 3: police really still aren't fully on the ball. They are,

577
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 3: of course being given new policing powers by the government

578
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 3: to deal with violent protests. They are being issued with

579
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 3: things like, you know, new non legal technologies, you know,

580
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 3: peppers play and extra equipment and body cameras that they

581
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 3: wouldn't have had before. But of course the classic thing

582
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 3: is that these will always be used as much, if

583
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 3: not more so against the left and the anti fascist

584
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 3: side than they will be against the racists. Thankfully, these groups,

585
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 3: you know, they're all in fighting with each other. They

586
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 3: have tried to do like electoral paths and to plan

587
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: out political strategies. But thankfully they're all so fixated on

588
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: wanting to be the furire that never really works. But

589
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: going to say a minute ago, is that that ten

590
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 3: thousand people, if there were that many on the street.

591
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: Not everyone in that is far right. You know, some

592
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: of the people are from working class communities that have

593
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 3: been betrayed by the government and have been abandoned, and

594
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 3: they are starting they've just fallen down the rabbit hole.

595
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 3: And I can think of an incident. I was in

596
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 3: the gym a couple of months back and just sitting there,

597
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 3: and there were a few guys. Didn't know they were

598
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 3: around chatting. Obviously we were in the gym. None of

599
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 3: us are in the sauna. None of us had many

600
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 3: clothes on, and none of these guys had like questionable

601
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 3: far right tattoos or anything like that. But the conversation

602
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: suddenly started about immigrants and how they were bringing crime

603
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 3: and how they were bringing disease and all this kind

604
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: of stuff. And I listened to it for a minute

605
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 3: or two and I just stood up and said, lads,

606
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 3: everything you are saying about immigrants in Ireland now is

607
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 3: what was said about Irish people in America in the

608
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 3: nineteenth century and in England in like the seventies and

609
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: the eighties. So I think it's important that even in

610
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 3: our workplace is on public transport, when we hear it

611
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 3: this the talk we call it out if it's a

612
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 3: friend of ours who's fallen down the rabbit hole into

613
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 3: these conspiracies, because that's how their message is spreading.

614
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 6: Now.

615
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 3: Often when you see people involved in some of this

616
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 3: anti immigrant rioting, they have no history of involvement in

617
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 3: far right groups, but it's that message has spread beyond

618
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 3: those groups thanks to our friends in the nerd Reich.

619
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 3: And I think if we have a work colleague or

620
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 3: a brother or somebody who falls into that that we

621
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 3: don't abandon them. We don't immediately start calling them a

622
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 3: Nazi and whatever that We try to talk talk them

623
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 3: round to it. But look, I suppose the thing is

624
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 3: there is hope, and everywhere these people have organized, there

625
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 3: have been anti fascists there to meet them. I think

626
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 3: we need to get better at planning that in a

627
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 3: national scale. Of course, on the left you always get

628
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 3: this fascialism and in fighting. I'm not standing beside him,

629
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 3: he's tratskis well, I don't like his views in the north.

630
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 3: Whatever we need to kind of say, as long as

631
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 3: we're fighting with each other, the fascists are winning, thankfully.

632
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,479
Speaker 3: None of these people have ever gotten more than two

633
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 3: percent in an election. They have nobody elected in our

634
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 3: national Parliament. They only have four or five, maybe six

635
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 3: councilors elected in the entire of the southern part of

636
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 3: the country. And that's out of nine hundred and forty

637
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: nine councilors. But we can't just laugh at them. We

638
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 3: can't worry the sisatle threat because when the Nazis stood

639
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 3: for election the first time, I think they only got

640
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 3: two percent of the vote as well, and look how

641
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 3: that turned out.

642
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and as we've seen in the US, like

643
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 2: what starts as this tiny, tiny number of freaks and

644
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: weirdos can wind up being a mass movement if it's

645
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: not you know, cauterized, right Like that's and that's that's

646
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 2: kind of the challenge in front of Irish anti fascists

647
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: right now is ensuring that that cauterization happens absolutely.

648
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 3: And I mean, look, if you think of this, you know,

649
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 3: Elon Musk has Tip McGregor for president, and we're all

650
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 3: laughing at it now, but you know it wouldn't be

651
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 3: the first time that Elon Musk has tipped a reality

652
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 3: TV star with a questionable sexual and criminal history for

653
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 3: high office and they got.

654
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: There, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, thank you so much.

655
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: Do you want to have anything you want to plug

656
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: here at the end of the episode, I mean your

657
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: book obviously.

658
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, well obviously I'm not I'm not on ex Twitter

659
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 3: anything like that. I don't have a substack or anything.

660
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 3: So just the main thing I want to plug is

661
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 3: my book Burned Them Out, a history of fascism and

662
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: the far right in Ireland. It is published by Bloomsbury,

663
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 3: head of Zeus, so it should be available in any

664
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 3: to order via any bookshop obviously. If you are going

665
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 3: to support a bookshop, support a small independent one Roger

666
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 3: than Barnes and Noble. And if you are buying it online,

667
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 3: obviously buy it from direct from the publishers Bloomsbury. Don't

668
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,439
Speaker 3: buy it off Amazon if you can, because god knows

669
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 3: Jeff Besis has enough money.

670
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's certainly bloody well, thank you so much, and

671
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: yeah that's our episode. Everybody come back tomorrow when we'll

672
00:34:48,800 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 2: have another one.

673
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 7: Welcome to that and here a podcast, and I forgot

674
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 7: to write an introduction for I'm your host, Miya Wong,

675
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 7: and we are well, okay, we're not taking a break

676
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 7: from the horrors, because this is also still a podcast

677
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 7: about the horrors and what you can do about it.

678
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 7: But you know, I am a transgender. One of the

679
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 7: ways that we have been like depersonified via transgender is

680
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 7: through a you know, a massive attack on trans like

681
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 7: trans women in sports. And this has led to, you know,

682
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 7: like the acceleration of like the broad scale attack on

683
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 7: all of us being able to exist as people. And

684
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 7: with me to talk about this is someone who has

685
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 7: written a book that is about this and also kind

686
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 7: of not about this in a lot of ways, and

687
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 7: that is Victoria Ziller, who is a writer author writes

688
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 7: about the Buffalo bills for our friends over at Defector

689
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 7: sometimes and is the author of a new book What

690
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 7: are the Boys Out Today? When you're listening to this, wow,

691
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 7: crazy wild, Yeah it is it has syncd upe like

692
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 7: this completely on purpose. We were one hundred percent planning

693
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 7: this from the beginning. Hello, thank you for having me.

694
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited to have you on.

695
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 7: So you would think that the question that your book,

696
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 7: one of the boys asks is what if a transchool

697
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 7: played football? But the actual and more important question to

698
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 7: ask is what if a poster could write fiction? And

699
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 7: the answer is that it fucking rips?

700
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 4: Thank you?

701
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 7: Is this this book rules? I Jenuily. I think this

702
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 7: is the best written group chats I've ever read in

703
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 7: a book. It rips it so good.

704
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 4: I am very passionate about group chats, you know. I

705
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 4: mean like posting is writing. Hello audience. If you don't

706
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 4: know me, my name is Victoria. I'm online. You may

707
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 4: know my Twitter or blue Sky accounts at dirtbag Queer.

708
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 4: I'm like largely posting about football when football is in season.

709
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 4: I kind of just post about random shit these days.

710
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 4: But yeah, I've allegedly written a book. The weird thing

711
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 4: about writing a book is that I feel like I've

712
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 4: just totally blacked out actually writing it. And I'm like,

713
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 4: that's crazy. Who did that? Couldn't be me? But yeah,

714
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 4: in terms of like how I would like very quickly pitch.

715
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 4: One of the boys, high school senior named Grace comes

716
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 4: back to her high school football team. She quit over

717
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 4: the summer because she came out as trans because her

718
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 4: teammates want to make a push for a state title,

719
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 4: and it's like trans coming of age, Friday Night Lights

720
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 4: handshake meme. But also when I was like big picture

721
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 4: thinking about what I wanted to do with this, I

722
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 4: wanted to tell kind of a like traditional high school

723
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 4: sports story, but through an outsider lens. Like if you

724
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 4: think about the average like high school football story, you

725
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,919
Speaker 4: think like, well, what we're gonna do is we're gonna

726
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 4: win state, we're gonna get the scholarship, and we're gonna

727
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 4: get the girl. And I wanted to sort of like

728
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 4: deconstruct those three things by making the protagonist trans and

729
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 4: making the protagonist a instead of like linebacker or a

730
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 4: quarterback or whatever, and that is who I am.

731
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, and this this book rips that sounds like a

732
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 7: fun thing going on where it basically has like the

733
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 7: football iceberg, where like you can come into us knowing

734
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 7: zero ball and you will get stuff out of it.

735
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 7: And you can come into this where I am knowing

736
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 7: like a some ball and you will get some out

737
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 7: of this. And then like the unhinged people who have

738
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 7: like sixteen different PFF tabs like pinned their bookmarks will

739
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 7: be like holy shit, the world building.

740
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that was h it is. It is hard

741
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 4: writing fiction about sports if you're writing young adult fiction,

742
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 4: you know, which is what one of the boys is.

743
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 4: Don't be weird about that. If you're an adult, teenage

744
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 4: girls are like, oh, you don't have to hate the

745
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 4: things they like. You can like call down a little bit. Uh,

746
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 4: But yeah, writing about football for an audience of like

747
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 4: teenagers is like fascinating because you have to assume that

748
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 4: the audience knows very little and you have to figure

749
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 4: out how much you want to give them so that

750
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 4: they get it without like overwhelming them, which is like

751
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 4: really just not at all what I wanted to do.

752
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 4: But also, yeah, if you're a sicko like me, you

753
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 4: can be like, ooh, I'm really into what this offense

754
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 4: is doing, or I am really into this like onside

755
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 4: kick play design. So I tried to, like do I

756
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 4: tried to do a little bit of both. And also, again,

757
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 4: this is a transcoming of age story, so yeah, it's

758
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 4: also dealing with you know, the horrors. So yep, ball

759
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 4: plus horrors is what we're working with here.

760
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, so I think, okay, we're going to get more

761
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 7: into the politics of this in a second But first

762
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 7: I want to ask one ball question since I have NOWBT,

763
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 7: I have now introduced my audience to the fact that

764
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 7: I talked about football by managing to get a rant

765
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 7: about de Sean Watson on here for like ten minutes,

766
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 7: the Sewn Watson trade. But okay, my one ball question

767
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 7: for this was how happy did it make you when

768
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 7: you figure out a way to write a football team

769
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 7: that does not use the forward pass?

770
00:39:59,480 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 4: Oh?

771
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 6: Man?

772
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 4: Uh, it's without without spoiling what happens at the end

773
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 4: of the act one turn, circumstances occur so that this

774
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 4: high school football team has to move a player who

775
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 4: is who is not a quarterback two quarterback, at which

776
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 4: point passing just goes away and we are just running

777
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 4: the ball, baby, we are we we are pounding the rock.

778
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 4: It's so sick. It is kind of sort of like loosely,

779
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 4: what I based this on was the year that the

780
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 4: University of Kentucky football team, like all like every single

781
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 4: quarterback got hurt and they were like, Okay, Lynn Bowden,

782
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 4: you are our best wide receiver. We're just gonna put

783
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 4: you a quarterback and you know, we're just gonna see

784
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 4: what happens. And that's like that was the fun of

785
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 4: writing fictional football is that I can make my fictional

786
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 4: football team do whatever I want, and I don't want

787
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 4: to ever see conservative trickery that is the forward pass,

788
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 4: get it out of here.

789
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 7: Yeah. This is one of the things I love about

790
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 7: you're writing is that you are very much just like

791
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 7: an old school like traditionalist football pound of the rock,

792
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 7: like none of this, like none of none of this

793
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 7: fuck an RPO bullshit person which is which is also

794
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 7: I don't know, it's just very funny that you have

795
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 7: like you have like the football personality of like an

796
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 7: extremely cranky, like seventy five year old like coach from

797
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 7: like the seventies.

798
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'm a trans woman yeah in rules, which

799
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 4: like again I tried not to do too much of

800
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 4: it in this book. Like part of the reason that

801
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 4: I made my main character a kicker, which we will

802
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 4: also talk about other reasons later, but part of the

803
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 4: reason is that kicking is this sort of like own

804
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 4: separate salad off thing. So I really only have to

805
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 4: like get the audience to understand kicking and what happens

806
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 4: when Grace is on the field. I don't have to

807
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 4: get into like what a football team that like never

808
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 4: passes the ball, like is doing a technical level. We

809
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 4: don't have to do all that. I give you just

810
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 4: enough that if you are a sickoh, you're like, yeah, baby,

811
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 4: like this rules.

812
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 2: This is the sickest offense of all time.

813
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 4: But also yeah, but also like you know, trying to

814
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 4: trying to help the queer kiddos understand that, like running

815
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 4: the ball is the official football position of the working class,

816
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 4: of the poltariat.

817
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 6: You know.

818
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 7: Okay, we're going to get more into the class dynamics

819
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 7: of football the second. But the place I kind of

820
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 7: want to start in terms of, like you know, talking

821
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 7: about the parts of us at art just ball is

822
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 7: so in a lot of ways, this is a book

823
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 7: about scriptlessness, which is something that I think, I don't know,

824
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 7: like we've been seeing a sort of resurgence of trends

825
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 7: or not resurchens, but I kind of like surgeants, emergence, emergence,

826
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 7: there we go, there we go, there we go. Yeah,

827
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,240
Speaker 7: of transliterature, and I think this is a very interesting

828
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 7: angle to take on it. And it's you know, when

829
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,879
Speaker 7: I say scriplessness, it's about the ways in which trans

830
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 7: women in particular don't have you know, sort of examples

831
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 7: and paths to like follow. Right, there's not like a

832
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 7: you're supposed to go from A to B two C.

833
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 7: This is like what you're doing with your life and

834
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 7: you have to just figure it out because suddenly you're

835
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 7: you and you just you just have to you know,

836
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 7: there's no rails, there's no guide, You just have to

837
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 7: do it. I think the Sapatista line about it is

838
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 7: that the road is made by walking. Can you talk

839
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 7: about how like having to just figure the shit out

840
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 7: influence the way that you write Grace and the way

841
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 7: that you sort of write this book.

842
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, So this is something that Grace struggles with a lot.

843
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 4: I mean, like specific to her, it's because she's a

844
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 4: trans woman who's playing football, something that if an openly

845
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,959
Speaker 4: trans woman has ever openly played, like American football, there

846
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 4: is not a lot of documentation of that online. So

847
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 4: like Grace, she is like walking a path that has

848
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 4: like never existed before. But I think, like more broadly

849
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 4: and more like thematically, there is that like Grace is

850
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 4: also frequently I call her stupid, and I don't think

851
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 4: that she's stupid, but calm up. But Grace struggles a

852
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 4: lot to like express herself I would say, and like,

853
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 4: I wanted her to like challenge what a reader might

854
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 4: expect from a trans girl in young adult fiction. Specifically,

855
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 4: we're like I think she's like frequently kind of like grading,

856
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 4: or at least I find her grading. She is not

857
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 4: traditionally feminine. I don't think she's unfeminine, but she like

858
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 4: struggles a lot with like feeling okay enough to like

859
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 4: express that about herself. Yeah, and like, I feel like

860
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 4: a lot of stories about trans kids have this view

861
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 4: of being a like younger transperson of like, well, it

862
00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 4: was always easy for me, and I took to finity

863
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 4: like a fish in water, and like this was like

864
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 4: natural to me. I wanted to write a character for

865
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 4: whom it is not necessarily natural for Grace to be

866
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 4: this person, and I wanted her past and the way

867
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 4: she is now to sort of like challenge a like

868
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 4: cist reader specifically, but also in terms of scriptulousness in

869
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 4: a more like macro way.

870
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: There's not a lot of ya.

871
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 4: Contemporary fiction about transgirl characters like at all. There is now,

872
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 4: thankfully a good amount of trans male representation in the genre,

873
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 4: but there are a few authors who are out here

874
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 4: writing transferm contemporary but like not a lot so like

875
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 4: figuring out like where I wanted to like slot in

876
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 4: to this like genre that is kind of like struggling

877
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 4: to be born, you know, not a lot of transfem

878
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 4: like seventeen year old protagonists who are like going to

879
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 4: like parties and drinking beer and worrying about whether or

880
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 4: not they want.

881
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: To go to college, which is all is all.

882
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 4: Stuff I wanted to like touch here.

883
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I think there's a bunch of levels of

884
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 7: this stuff sort of operates on and I think it's

885
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 7: very like I don't know, like a lot of being trends.

886
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 7: And I say this at least for me, I don't know,

887
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 7: like maybe maybe this didn't for other people. Was just

888
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 7: like having no idea what the fuck you're doing and

889
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 7: just you know, waking up one day and realizing like shit, wait,

890
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 7: what the fuck do you mean I'm doing this? And

891
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 7: it's like, you know, I got think about this, like

892
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 7: doing this job. It's like wait, what the fuck I'm

893
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 7: a trans podcaster? Like what like I can't even.

894
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: Do my makeup? Well, like what the fuck are we

895
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: doing here?

896
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 4: Yep?

897
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 7: I think that like an never think that I've talked

898
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 7: about I talked about this a lot in the show

899
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 7: is but it's also just like how kind of like

900
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 7: normal the trans girls who just like suddenly something blows

901
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 7: up and they're like Internet famers or whatever the fuck

902
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 7: are that. They're just like some kid until like, yeah,

903
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 7: you know, there's just like an explosion and everyone is

904
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 7: suddenly interested in every intimate detail of your life and

905
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 7: is trying to deconstruct it in order to destroy you.

906
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, Grace is Again I don't really want to like

907
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 4: spoil act act three stuff here, but later on the story,

908
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 4: Grace achieves some amount of like Internet notoriety for what

909
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 4: she's doing. And yeah, Grace is like an extremely typical kid.

910
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 4: She has like typical kid problems. But then this like

911
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 4: microscope gets put on her and she's she is sort

912
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 4: of like forced to like become this like different thing

913
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 4: that like if she wants to be that thing someday,

914
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:54,479
Speaker 4: it's not now.

915
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 8: Yeah.

916
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, my book

917
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 4: is about how we ask teenagers to like do too

918
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 4: much and be too much. But like, especially trans kids,

919
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 4: when you transition at any age, you are building the

920
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 4: plane of your personality while you are flying it, baby yep,

921
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 4: And like that's so much pressure to put on anyone,

922
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 4: but like especially anyone who is a kid is just

923
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 4: like there's a lot of pressure. And I wanted to

924
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 4: I wanted to like juxtapose the parts of Grace's experience

925
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 4: that like a like sis boy or girl could read

926
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 4: and be like, yep, I also don't know where I

927
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 4: want to go to college.

928
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 2: But also like sort.

929
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 4: Of like show like well because she is like this,

930
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 4: she is facing this like unreal level of scrutiny that

931
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 4: is like not normal, deeply unnatural and like fucked up

932
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 4: and like unfair.

933
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, speaking of unfair, we have to go to ads.

934
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 7: We come back. That's one of my better pivots. I'm

935
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 7: proud of that one. When we come back, We're going

936
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:07,760
Speaker 7: to talk about masculinity.

937
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 2: We are back.

938
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 7: So one of the boys is weirdly the second football

939
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 7: involved book about a trans woman that I've read in

940
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 7: the last year, and I think it's fascinating because in

941
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 7: the like pure archetypal sense from structuralless anthropology, it is

942
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 7: like a pure structural inversion of Alison Greeves is How

943
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 7: to Fly, because how to Fly is this is also

944
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 7: a good book, but How to Fly is about a

945
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 7: girl getting forced fem to escape masculine violence. Why they

946
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 7: come and a cheerleader and one of the boys is

947
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 7: about a trans woman going back into into a hypermasculine

948
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 7: space to become a football player. It's like they're just

949
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 7: literally perfect structural versions of each other. And so I

950
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 7: wanted to ask you about how are you thinking about

951
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 7: doing this thing right, which is which is going back

952
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 7: into these these hyper masculine spaces that a lot of

953
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 7: people come out of pre transition, you know, when when

954
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 7: you were sort of writing this, because this is not

955
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,280
Speaker 7: a thing that people tend to write when they're writing

956
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 7: about transfems.

957
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 4: Totally and sort of the like irregularity of Grace's path

958
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 4: this way is like one of the reasons why I

959
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,720
Speaker 4: was like drawn to like writing a sports story about

960
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 4: like a trans girl playing football specifically, is because like

961
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 4: I probably have a like more I don't know if

962
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 4: complicated is the word, but I have like a very

963
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 4: like interesting relationship with masculinity. And as much as I'm

964
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 4: like fascinated by it, like I think it is like

965
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 4: endlessly interesting to see the ways that like men construct

966
00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 4: the like various kinds of masculinity that they live in

967
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 4: and the like various outcomes that men can end up

968
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 4: finding via their weird distinct masculinities. For instance, for me personally,

969
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 4: I'm still in my like old high school like boys

970
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 4: group chat like that we like started like a decade ago,

971
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 4: and like I have never once had a problem fitting

972
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 4: in there. When they all found out I was trans,

973
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 4: was like, oh shit, cool, whatever we're gonna keep talking

974
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 4: about like the NIX, you know. And like again, Grace's

975
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 4: journey with masculinity is different from mine, but kind of

976
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 4: like her, I have like some amount of like difficulty

977
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 4: and like very masculine sports spaces when I was a kid,

978
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 4: but then like once you adapt and once you like

979
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 4: learn how to like perform this thing, Like I never

980
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 4: had a problem existing in these worlds. And like something

981
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 4: that Grace is really annoyed by is that people are

982
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,919
Speaker 4: always like I just can't believe that, like you would

983
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 4: be trans, And what is hidden in there is like

984
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 4: you were kind of a dick. You were like kind

985
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 4: of a douchebag. Yeah, So, like I very much wanted

986
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 4: to write a trans protagonist who has a relationship with

987
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 4: like her past self and with her male friends. That

988
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 4: was like a little more complicated. Were like she has

989
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 4: a like very good, solid group of like male friends

990
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 4: who are not like perfect, but are still like that's

991
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 4: my friend. So like I think for my friends and

992
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 4: for a lot of trans women's male friends, they're like, well,

993
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 4: I was friends with you before, so like you're still

994
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 4: like you know, you're still you.

995
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 3: I'm still gonna be cool with you.

996
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 4: So I guess that means that I have to think

997
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 4: about like that I have to like, okay, now I

998
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 4: have to like think about how like trans people are

999
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 4: like treated by society more broadly. And it's like interesting

1000
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 4: seeing men in my life like suddenly become like cognizant

1001
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 4: of like transitions, and it's all like personal. It's all like, well,

1002
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,919
Speaker 4: I know this person, and therefore I'm going to show

1003
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 4: compassion to this person that I like. And then you know,

1004
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 4: politics starting at the personal and sort of like growing

1005
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 4: out from there.

1006
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 7: So I want to ask a bit more, just digging

1007
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 7: into sort of the masculinity aspect specifically, because one of

1008
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 7: the things I think is I don't know that there's

1009
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 7: a part of being a transfem that isn't super well

1010
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 7: understood outside of it, which is sort of a lot

1011
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 7: of trans women have a phase where you really try

1012
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,720
Speaker 7: to be a man, right, where you get like really

1013
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 7: into like hypermasculinity in order to try to like yeah,

1014
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 7: try to make yourself do it. Like I had gamer

1015
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 7: me a phase, which was a fiasco, not even gearing

1016
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 7: me if I'm still sort of game and be but

1017
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 7: I had, like you know, I had I had like

1018
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 7: like top point two five percent Heartstone player, like the

1019
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 7: a wreck a disasters substantively a worst person. Yeah, and

1020
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 7: you know so, and like that's the thing that has

1021
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,839
Speaker 7: a lot of complicated social ripples. Were like this this

1022
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 7: process of like like doing this, you know, sometimes it's

1023
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 7: like your final them. It's just it's just what you're

1024
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 7: doing to try to get by. It's like trying to

1025
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 7: force yourself to be a man and like do this

1026
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,839
Speaker 7: masculinity in a way that's like really shit because you're

1027
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 7: trying to like reconcile it with yourself. Yes, So this

1028
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 7: is like a thing that a lot of like transforms experience.

1029
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 2: I think it's.

1030
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 7: Written interestingly in this book. And I was always wondering,

1031
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 7: I don't know, like like the way you talk about

1032
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 7: being in this in like fitting into these spaces as

1033
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 7: like okay, well, I figured out how to like do

1034
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:58,720
Speaker 7: the performance okay, and then it was sort of fine.

1035
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 7: So I'm wondering, like this is almost universally seen as

1036
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 7: like this is like a formal structural violence that's been

1037
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 7: enacted on you that you sort of have to like

1038
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 7: do this. But there's also a kind of I don't know,

1039
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 7: a kind of complicated dynamic of like these people are

1040
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 7: still like your friends and you like them, and I

1041
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 7: guess I want to know sort of how you've been

1042
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 7: thinking about like that specific angle and like this sort

1043
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 7: of process of fitting in and becoming and also just

1044
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 7: this is sort of unbecoming you have to do to

1045
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 7: like become yourself.

1046
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, So my book has flashback sequences that are written

1047
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 4: in second person. This is mostly a book that's written

1048
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 4: in first person. But I tried to like really lean

1049
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 4: into this like phenomenon of like closeted trans women like

1050
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 4: butching up at like certain moments in their lives in

1051
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 4: order to like pass and cram down this like feeling

1052
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 4: that is like really fucking scary at first.

1053
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 3: So like.

1054
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 4: I want the second person grace flashbacks to her like

1055
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:15,319
Speaker 4: starting fights and being a like asshole to her girlfriend.

1056
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 4: I want them to feel like jarring, and I want

1057
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 4: them to feel like Grace is being a bastard in

1058
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 4: a lot of these flashbacks, but like I also wanted

1059
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 4: to show like how she gets there in terms of

1060
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 4: like various moments earlier in her life where she was

1061
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 4: sort of like shunted into this more like masculine path

1062
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 4: in order to like pass and like not be bullied

1063
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 4: or like other eyes, and like it definitely is. It's tough,

1064
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 4: and I think that I think that I personally have

1065
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 4: a like complicated relationship with Like, Yeah, like I hated

1066
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 4: football when I played it. And I did it because

1067
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:00,839
Speaker 4: like I like the sport obviously because I'm a fan,

1068
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 4: and because I wrote this book about it, and because

1069
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:04,879
Speaker 4: I write about football some times and I boast about

1070
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 4: it a lot, but like playing it made me miserable,

1071
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,439
Speaker 4: but like I also made friends with that team who

1072
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 4: I still talk to. So it's like I definitely wanted

1073
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 4: to feel like violent and imposed, but also like it

1074
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 4: isn't something that can be like erased. It's something that

1075
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 4: you have to deal with. It's something that like as

1076
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 4: you grow up and as you continue to self actualize,

1077
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 4: you have to like decide what parts of that version

1078
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 4: of yourself are worth keeping and what parts aren't. And

1079
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 4: that's like something that I wanted to show, like Grace

1080
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 4: struggle through kind of in real time, is she's like

1081
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 4: very early in her transition, and she doesn't know how

1082
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 4: she wants to present, and she doesn't know how much

1083
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 4: of like her old life and the people in her

1084
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 4: old life that want to associate with her, or does

1085
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 4: existing on this football team dragger back towards something that

1086
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 4: she doesn't want to be anymore. It's all stuff that

1087
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 4: I wanted to play with. And it's not like overtly political,

1088
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 4: but is like subtextually political, you.

1089
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 7: Know, yeah, well it's it's it's political in the sense that,

1090
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 7: like you know that we were talking about sort of

1091
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 7: scriptleussness earlier, right, And I think one of the one

1092
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 7: of the sort of alienating factors about being trends is that, like,

1093
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 7: especially if you're like kind of alone and you're like,

1094
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 7: you know, like you're like the only transferm that you're

1095
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 7: spending time with.

1096
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 2: Right, This is just.

1097
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 7: True for like a lot of things, like a lot

1098
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 7: of how sort of oppression functions and a lot of

1099
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 7: how violence functions. Is by convincing you that this is

1100
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 7: the only You're the only person's ever gone through this,

1101
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 7: m h. And there are always going to be unique

1102
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 7: aspects of it. But like, you know, one of the

1103
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 7: ways that alienation has maintained is by convincing you that

1104
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 7: no one else can understand the thing that's happening to you,

1105
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 7: and that because no one else has ever done it.

1106
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 7: And it turns out like, no, actually, this is something

1107
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 7: that like all of us have gone through. And when

1108
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 7: when you sort of start to realize just the kind

1109
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 7: of solidarity that could be built based on this collective

1110
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 7: well of experience we've all gone through, and how it

1111
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 7: can be you know, changed by actual actions of a

1112
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 7: bunch of people working together, it changes things. So I

1113
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 7: think I think it is in a lot of ways

1114
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 7: political in the sense that like, in order to have politics,

1115
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 7: you have to have sort of like collective assemblages of

1116
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 7: people who fucking understand each other and to understand that

1117
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 7: they're not alone, that they can do things totally. And

1118
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 7: this is part of how you get to that.

1119
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, we can talk a little bit more about the

1120
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 4: like very start of something that could be seen as

1121
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 4: a political awakening that Grace has in this book, but like, yeah,

1122
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 4: part of the reason that she isn't perfect is because

1123
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 4: she doesn't know any other Like there are no other

1124
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 4: transmitment characters in this book, And that was very deliberate. Yeah,

1125
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 4: Grace is like on our own. She is like figuring

1126
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 4: this out as she goes yep. And I wanted it

1127
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 4: to feel rough and like ad hoc because like that's

1128
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 4: how it is for a lot of people.

1129
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 2: That's how it was, like go through it by walking.

1130
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I guess, I guess I want to kind

1131
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 7: of move into the more directly political realm. One I

1132
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 7: think is interesting about this book is that, like Grace

1133
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 7: and this is something that like I my brain has

1134
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 7: been so melted by having been like the politics kids

1135
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 7: since I was like fifteen, because I was like my

1136
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 7: high school was like interrupted in the middle of it

1137
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 7: by be trying to overseell the Turkish government, and so like,

1138
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 7: my brain is so melted. We'll get air to one

1139
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 7: one day. We already can't go there for our coverage

1140
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 7: of Kurdish gorilla movements. Very good stuff. You'll find many,

1141
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 7: many such things, I think. But like one of the

1142
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 7: interesting persons about this is that Grace is like not political, right,

1143
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 7: and most of the people in this aren't. And there's

1144
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 7: kind of a divide between the politics knowers who are

1145
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 7: like the more uh you know, who are like okay, yeah,

1146
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 7: like we we are like the queer kids. We are

1147
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 7: like the activist kids, and then like the you know,

1148
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 7: like the ballplayers, and then Grace sort of fits more

1149
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 7: into the like not even more. Grace isn't like a

1150
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 7: politics person. Grace is a like, hey, like transphobia is bad,

1151
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 7: we shouldn't do that, but also like just wants to

1152
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 7: fucking go kick a go kick a rock between two posts.

1153
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 7: So yeah, can you talk about like how you sort

1154
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 7: of decided to make her just be like kid who

1155
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 7: doesn't follow politics.

1156
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, So like that was like not any kind of

1157
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 4: like statement about how like politics is bad.

1158
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 6: You know.

1159
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 4: That was like Grace's seventeen, and most seventeen year olds,

1160
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 4: if they have politics at all, have like completely incoherent politics.

1161
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I was like, holy shit.

1162
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, like Grace has the like barest outlines of

1163
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 4: like ideology, and those were like put on her by

1164
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 4: people in her life. We know that her dad is

1165
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:53,439
Speaker 4: a union man, and from a small age she has

1166
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 4: internalized that unions are good. Does she know why probably not,

1167
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 4: but or all so we know that her friend tab

1168
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 4: who is Bori, has been like educating her on like

1169
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 4: Puerto Rican Independence, which was like which was a like

1170
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 4: that was a very funny lie, right, because because Grace

1171
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 4: is as like dumb as shit white kid from the suburbs,

1172
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 4: but so like inasmuch as she's like piecing together the

1173
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 4: person she is bit by bit, she's also kind of

1174
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 4: like piecing what she thinks about the world together along

1175
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 4: with that in terms of like most of the straight

1176
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,439
Speaker 4: white players on the football team like do not have

1177
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 4: like basically don't have politics. There's a scene where one

1178
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 4: of my minor characters is like, yo, I just figured

1179
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 4: out that, like trans phobia is bad, and I loved

1180
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 4: I fucking loved writing that. But like, I imagine that

1181
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 4: up until recently, Grace was exactly like this and just

1182
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 4: like just like yep, I'm a middle lower middle class

1183
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 4: white straight boy air quotes on all of that, she

1184
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 4: never had any kind of like thought about that.

1185
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 2: That does not.

1186
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 4: Reflect what was going on in my life when I

1187
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 4: was a teenager, because I was a very annoying oh

1188
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 4: like me and a friend of mine, Chavon, got in

1189
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 4: trouble for putting a Bernie Sanders twenty sixteen sticker on

1190
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 4: her locker, because that's the kind of shit.

1191
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 7: We were doing in.

1192
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 4: High school in twenty fifteen. So like, I was like

1193
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 4: very much had sort of like vacant liberal middle class

1194
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 4: kid politics, but like Grace, Grace is. I imagine that like

1195
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 4: later in her life, she kind of has more political

1196
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 4: thoughts in her head. But I also kind of imagine

1197
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 4: that her brain works like I don't know if you've

1198
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 4: played Disco Elysium, but I kind of imagine. I kind

1199
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 4: of imagine Grace has a like thought cabinet, and it's

1200
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 4: like she has like she has like two slots in it. Oh,

1201
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 4: she just like cannot hold that many ideas in her

1202
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 4: brain at once. So she's she is in all aspects

1203
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 4: of her life trying her vest and trying to get better.

1204
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 4: And yeah, I want to like I feel like a

1205
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:36,600
Speaker 4: lot of contemporary YA that comes out these days, a

1206
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 4: lot of the kids have like overly coherent politics. I

1207
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 4: was like, nah, nah, I wanted to write a kid

1208
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 4: who has like good intentions but has no idea what

1209
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 4: she's doing.

1210
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 7: Yep, God, my brain's doing the Trump flying. In many cases,

1211
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 7: have no idea what they're doing. Yeah, oh Jesus, crash,

1212
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 7: braids and broken. Okay, speaking of things being broken, the

1213
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 7: products and services to support this podcast unrelated statements.

1214
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 2: We are back, Okay.

1215
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 7: So, having now gotten like many far into this interview

1216
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 7: without directly being like, here's the football politics, let's talk

1217
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 7: about the politics of football. Because one of the things

1218
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 7: that I think is fascinating about, you know, the way

1219
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 7: you're sort of talking about this, and the way that

1220
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 7: Grace like runs into this, and the way that this

1221
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 7: is just like a thing that happens in the US,

1222
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 7: which is that like giant portions of the entire US

1223
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 7: economy and like like structural elements of the US like

1224
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 7: education system from like the ground up, and like all

1225
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,479
Speaker 7: of these sort of contracting services, like massive portions of

1226
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 7: like how every single part of the education system from

1227
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 7: like fucking like middle school through college are all bent

1228
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:58,440
Speaker 7: around this game, yep. And I think one of the

1229
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 7: things that happens there is that like the they're kind

1230
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 7: of like default ambient politics. It is very conservative, and

1231
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 7: I think in ways that you know, are very easy

1232
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 7: to understand, and that when people tend to talk about this,

1233
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 7: they immediately go like, well, yeah. So like you know,

1234
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:13,520
Speaker 7: like the left is talking about football, it's like you're

1235
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 7: talking about the militarism, which is like yeah, I mean

1236
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 7: they're fucking flying jets over games like there, we're not

1237
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 7: even in wars anymore. In terms of like US ground

1238
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 7: troops deployed, Like why the fuck are their troops showing

1239
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 7: up on the field. There's like the cult of masculinity stuff.

1240
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 7: There's you know, I mean, like there's been some engagement

1241
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 7: now with the racial politics of it with Kaepernick. People

1242
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 7: realize like holy shit, wait, there's been like stuff happening

1243
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 7: here for ages, and you know when you get sort

1244
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 7: of the masculinity politics. But there's I think a lot

1245
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 7: of stuff here that we don't talk about on the

1246
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 7: left in terms of like the class dynamics of this

1247
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 7: and the way that football I'm just like functions in

1248
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 7: a lot of very very weird ways in terms of

1249
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:59,480
Speaker 7: like sucking together this weird pool of a bunch of

1250
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 7: like non working class kids and like, I don't know,

1251
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:06,520
Speaker 7: fucking see if I knew ball, I could I could

1252
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 7: pull an example off top of my head of like

1253
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 7: some some quarterback prospect you'd spent his family had spent

1254
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 7: like two million dollars on like personal trainers for him.

1255
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

1256
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1257
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 4: I grew up sort of like middle lower middle class

1258
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 4: and like playing football specifically, and I grew up playing

1259
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 4: mostly like soccer and baseball, a little bit of basketball,

1260
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 4: but I sort of like I sort of ended up

1261
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 4: playing football when I was like a teenager because I

1262
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 4: was large, and that's how that works. And like in

1263
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 4: terms of like connecting with people who weren't white and

1264
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 4: of my exact class status or higher like football sow

1265
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 4: it happened. Man, like most of my earliest friendships with

1266
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 4: black kids with Hispanic kids was like all through football,

1267
01:07:55,440 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 4: and like it is a like very interesting of like

1268
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 4: class and racial melting pot at least at like I

1269
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 4: went to a like pretty big suburban middle and high school,

1270
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 4: but like lots of lots of very different kinds of

1271
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 4: people ended up at my school, and lots of very

1272
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:18,640
Speaker 4: different kinds of people ended up playing football, And like

1273
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:25,000
Speaker 4: you're gonna get a more diverse slice of that student

1274
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 4: population on a football team than you will on the

1275
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 4: fucking yearbook committee or in like school band, class government, whatever.

1276
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 4: All of that came very naturally to me in terms

1277
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:43,040
Speaker 4: of writing this book, where like I've ended up with

1278
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 4: a book that's like quite diverse. But I didn't really

1279
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 4: do that on purpose. I just kind of like, who

1280
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:50,559
Speaker 4: are the kinds of kids who end up playing football?

1281
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 4: And it's like everyone you have like Poorish kids like Grace,

1282
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 4: and then you have like Ritish kids like Ahmed or

1283
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 4: Dre in my book, who like I very much wanted

1284
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 4: to like show that, like maybe one of the reasons

1285
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 4: that Grace is going to end up having a more

1286
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 4: coherent politics is because, like she has friends of different

1287
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 4: backgrounds that she might not if she had not ended

1288
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 4: up playing this this like fucked up, evil, violent game.

1289
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 4: To be clear, Yeah, I mean, I think any football

1290
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 4: fan who is honest with themselves and has his politics

1291
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:30,880
Speaker 4: that are not evil has a very complicated relationship to

1292
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 4: the game for a like variety of reasons. Because it

1293
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 4: will like choose up people's brains and there's that, but

1294
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:43,599
Speaker 4: there's also like implied conservative politics. There's also a big

1295
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 4: factor here is that high school football, even at a

1296
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,600
Speaker 4: public school like mine, the religion is all over it, baby.

1297
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:53,040
Speaker 2: Like all over it. Yeah, that's a huge part of it.

1298
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 4: Jason Kirk of The Shutdown Full Cast is working on

1299
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 4: a book about the like history of Christianity and college

1300
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 4: football called Church and State. I'm very fucking excited for

1301
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:07,679
Speaker 4: that book.

1302
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:09,120
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, yeah, that sounds awesome.

1303
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 4: But it's just like really interesting political space because of

1304
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:17,600
Speaker 4: how diverse it is and because of how like homogeneous

1305
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:19,679
Speaker 4: a lot of the like religion and.

1306
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 2: Politics of it are, I guess if that makes sense.

1307
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, And it's soundso weird because like, you know, so

1308
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:27,639
Speaker 7: like I don't know, I refuse to watch college football,

1309
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 7: Like I draw the line there, like I'm not doing this.

1310
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:31,040
Speaker 2: I'm not doing this.

1311
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,360
Speaker 7: They can't make me watch like fucking Colorado's State or

1312
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 7: whatever the fuck.

1313
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 2: But like one of the.

1314
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 7: Things that you get in the NFL too, is it's like,

1315
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 7: on the one hand, like you have all of this

1316
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 7: really really conservative shit right, like every fucking everything is God.

1317
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 7: Like every single time someone holds a thing in front

1318
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:52,719
Speaker 7: of a player there there's like at least three lines

1319
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 7: of like all of this is possible because of God.

1320
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,920
Speaker 7: And like someone's like it's like that the only place

1321
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 7: you see people regularly saying Christ is King where they're

1322
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 7: not also like holding an ar to like a non

1323
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:07,160
Speaker 7: white person's head, you know. So so that there's all

1324
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:11,720
Speaker 7: of this like really really conservative religious shit. But then

1325
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 7: also there's like a union. Yes, then everyone's in and

1326
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 7: it's like a large like I mean, it's not that powerful,

1327
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 7: and there's there's weirdness there too, because you get to

1328
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 7: see all of the really interesting dynamics of unions that

1329
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,200
Speaker 7: you don't really get outside of kind of like I mean,

1330
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:33,280
Speaker 7: like I guess like SAG kind of has this, but

1331
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:37,639
Speaker 7: it's this union in this place where one the owners

1332
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:40,839
Speaker 7: have like an unbelievable amount of control. It's a hideous

1333
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:43,599
Speaker 7: amount of power, and they can turn through people really quickly.

1334
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 7: They have you know, these are some of the richest

1335
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:48,760
Speaker 7: people in the world. And then also secondly there's there's

1336
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 7: this like marketization force that's happening where you know, you

1337
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:56,639
Speaker 7: get to see in miniature the way that capitalism has

1338
01:11:56,760 --> 01:12:01,720
Speaker 7: like moved to to sort of deal with unions, deal

1339
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:03,400
Speaker 7: with sort of the class movements of the twentieth century,

1340
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 7: which is that like they're also trying to turn all

1341
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:08,640
Speaker 7: of these kids like into entrepreneurs.

1342
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:09,400
Speaker 3: HM.

1343
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:13,600
Speaker 4: I think in the NFL, I think it's more coherent

1344
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:16,719
Speaker 4: because there is a players association, not a union.

1345
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:20,439
Speaker 7: A players association, although also also shout out shout outs

1346
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 7: to the PA for backing are for backing a unionization

1347
01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:23,720
Speaker 7: attempt here.

1348
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 2: Thanks for that.

1349
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:26,880
Speaker 7: I don't know if it mattered, but that's a lot

1350
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 7: to me.

1351
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 4: Yeah. Also, like sports players, unions are fascinating because these

1352
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:36,680
Speaker 4: are people who are part of a union who are

1353
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:39,960
Speaker 4: like at least some of them millionaires. So it's yep,

1354
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:44,519
Speaker 4: a very interesting sort of like class dynamic happening there.

1355
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 4: But like call it like the college game right now

1356
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:52,599
Speaker 4: is just charn Oldhouse. I mean, like it is better

1357
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:56,519
Speaker 4: now that players are being paid like unambiguous good that

1358
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 4: players can profit off of their name, image and likeness.

1359
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:03,760
Speaker 4: But again it makes like I remember, like I'm not

1360
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 4: on Twitter much anymore, but like in the like early

1361
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 4: Elon days, you started getting Twitter ads and these were

1362
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:14,400
Speaker 4: sixteen seventeen year old high school football players.

1363
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:14,759
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1364
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 4: The post is like huddle highlights and like a like

1365
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 4: quick recruiting profile of like hey, class of twenty twenty

1366
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 4: seven defensive back wide receiver out of Palo Alto, and

1367
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 4: just like blasting that onto like Twitter timelines everywhere, just

1368
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:36,680
Speaker 4: like please God, somebody see my Like, somebody see these

1369
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:42,760
Speaker 4: fucking huddle highlights. The feudalism stage of high school and

1370
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,720
Speaker 4: college ball has like ended, and now we are in

1371
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:52,479
Speaker 4: the no regulations baby, just like completely unfettered capitalism stage.

1372
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:55,880
Speaker 7: Can we explain like just how like very briefly, people

1373
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:58,040
Speaker 7: who do not know any football like what name, image

1374
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 7: likeness is and how this is different from like a

1375
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:02,639
Speaker 7: system that would be normal, which is you pay the players.

1376
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:09,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, so for like seventy years, the precedent with college

1377
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 4: football in the United States of America is that all

1378
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:14,920
Speaker 4: these players are amateurs and they cannot be compensated in

1379
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:18,439
Speaker 4: any way. They cannot profit off of their name, image likeness,

1380
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:20,599
Speaker 4: so that means that they can't like sell autographs. The

1381
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:23,000
Speaker 4: school isn't going to sell jerseys that have their name

1382
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:27,160
Speaker 4: on them. You are meant to make exactly zero dollars

1383
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 4: from your time as a amateur college athlete. And this

1384
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 4: was the ironclad system for like seventy years, and then

1385
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 4: it kind of got like destroyed overnight. Yeah, when the

1386
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:44,360
Speaker 4: NCAA finally legalizes players profiting off of their name, image,

1387
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:47,800
Speaker 4: and likeness, so that means that they could sign like

1388
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 4: endorsement deals. And when this was first made a thing

1389
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:56,720
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty one, it mostly manifested in like the

1390
01:14:56,800 --> 01:15:02,200
Speaker 4: Coldest Crawford for the Nebraska football team is filming a

1391
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 4: ad for a local air conditioning company because his name

1392
01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 4: is the Coldest. And it was sort of like very

1393
01:15:08,439 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 4: like quaint and cute at first, but then nil collectives

1394
01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:14,800
Speaker 4: got going, which are these I don't even know how

1395
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:19,920
Speaker 4: to how to like god described collective is these are

1396
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 4: like investment groups that operate independently of universities that pool

1397
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 4: resources and then pay players for like extremely scant public appearances,

1398
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:35,760
Speaker 4: so that they can say that they're just profiting off

1399
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 4: of name, image and likeness, but in reality they exist

1400
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:42,800
Speaker 4: as a way to pay college football players without paying

1401
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:46,160
Speaker 4: them via schools. Now, there is the house settlement happening

1402
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:49,599
Speaker 4: right now, which colleges will soon be able to probably

1403
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:54,160
Speaker 4: maybe God who knows, will soon be able to directly

1404
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:58,479
Speaker 4: pay college athletes a certain amount of money. Lord knows

1405
01:15:58,479 --> 01:16:01,040
Speaker 4: where that's going. Like this is all changing at like

1406
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 4: lightnings at like yeah, yeah, so like we have just

1407
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 4: straight up gone from like nobody gets paid for anything

1408
01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 4: to like we are in fucking like gilded age robber

1409
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 4: bear and shit where like yeah, because none of this

1410
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 4: shit is regulated schools or an aisle. Collectives will go

1411
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:24,480
Speaker 4: back on agreements and everything's negotiated every year. They're like

1412
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 4: like it's it's a fucking mess. Yeah in the college

1413
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:31,519
Speaker 4: game right now. So I mean all of that makes

1414
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 4: the like NFL having a kind of shitty union look

1415
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:36,120
Speaker 4: a lot better.

1416
01:16:36,280 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, IM just thinking about the kind of like

1417
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:41,720
Speaker 7: this is my way of kind of bringing it back

1418
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:44,639
Speaker 7: to transgender but like one of the things that I've

1419
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:48,599
Speaker 7: been thinking about a lot in terms of I mean

1420
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:50,479
Speaker 7: just like what I do, right, and but also just

1421
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 7: like the way that capitalism has been moving in the

1422
01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:58,720
Speaker 7: last like few decades is it's increasingly about you know

1423
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 7: because like okay, so, like capitalism's fundamental base has always

1424
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:04,720
Speaker 7: been like you sell your labor, m right, but now

1425
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:06,559
Speaker 7: it's it's it's been increasing your shows for me into

1426
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:09,799
Speaker 7: like you're selling like the image of yourself. You're selling

1427
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 7: your identity, You're selling like yeah, you know, you're selling

1428
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:14,800
Speaker 7: your personality. You're selling as much of like and this

1429
01:17:14,840 --> 01:17:16,200
Speaker 7: is this is what name image likeness is.

1430
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 2: Right.

1431
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 7: It's like, we're not gonna pay you for like your labor,

1432
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:22,800
Speaker 7: which is like you playing football. We're gonna pay you

1433
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:25,680
Speaker 7: for like this nebulous image of yourself. So you get

1434
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:27,800
Speaker 7: all these people who like are are you know, you're

1435
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:31,759
Speaker 7: forced to turn all of yourself into an object for consumption,

1436
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 7: and like I think that's the thing with like fucking

1437
01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:35,760
Speaker 7: I don't know, That's what I'm doing on this show

1438
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:38,040
Speaker 7: right to a large extent, like I am like the

1439
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:40,639
Speaker 7: Asian transgender and like, yeah, obviously, like all of this

1440
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 7: is like research, but it's also you know, this is

1441
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:45,120
Speaker 7: what like brand and identity is, and this has had

1442
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:48,840
Speaker 7: these like seismic impacts on the entire global economy. Like

1443
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:50,760
Speaker 7: I've talked about this an episode on when I talked

1444
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:53,040
Speaker 7: about Temu, but like Tamu is literally the product of

1445
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 7: this happening with Chinese farmers. We're like Chinese farmers, We're

1446
01:17:56,880 --> 01:17:58,759
Speaker 7: doing this like farm social media thing and so almost

1447
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:01,240
Speaker 7: like holy shit, what if we liked become these things

1448
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:02,519
Speaker 7: where they were selling food but they were also just

1449
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:05,479
Speaker 7: selling that like the identity brand of like themselves as farmers,

1450
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:08,120
Speaker 7: And Timu was like, well a PDD, which is the

1451
01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 7: Chinese company, was like what if we just brought all

1452
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:11,719
Speaker 7: of these things together in one spot so you could

1453
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 7: just do directed like consumer sales through it. And now

1454
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:18,520
Speaker 7: that's like the entire fucking economy is just this morass

1455
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:22,360
Speaker 7: of like selling every single part of yourself and I

1456
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 7: don't know, like I'm wondering how much of yourself did

1457
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:27,200
Speaker 7: you have to do you have to like leave in

1458
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:28,800
Speaker 7: a book like this, and how much of it can

1459
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:32,360
Speaker 7: you like kind of like keep away from the market.

1460
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 4: Oh boy, So like you're good. Yeah, Oh gosh, everything

1461
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:47,280
Speaker 4: is uh, everything is personal brands.

1462
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 6: Now.

1463
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:51,880
Speaker 4: You know, there's a lot of pressure as an author

1464
01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:56,000
Speaker 4: to use all your social media is in a very

1465
01:18:56,000 --> 01:19:00,760
Speaker 4: particular way. You're supposed to. You're you're supposed to make

1466
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:04,640
Speaker 4: your cute little canva graphics and like talking about your

1467
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 4: characters and engage with like prompt posts on Instagram and

1468
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 4: you know whatever social media du jore And like, my

1469
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:22,639
Speaker 4: personal experience is a little irregular because I do have

1470
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:29,559
Speaker 4: some amount of like sports, Twitter, niche micro celebrity. I'm posting,

1471
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:35,160
Speaker 4: so like I'm not out here making promotional.

1472
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:36,400
Speaker 2: Tiktoks for one of the boys.

1473
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:39,760
Speaker 4: That was like something that was very important to me.

1474
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:42,760
Speaker 4: Was like, oh I'm not going to be doing that,

1475
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:43,719
Speaker 4: Thank god.

1476
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:45,080
Speaker 1: That shit.

1477
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1478
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:51,160
Speaker 4: The way that authors have to promote themselves and turn

1479
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:53,240
Speaker 4: themselves into brands is like a whole other can of

1480
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:56,760
Speaker 4: worms that like sucks so like, Thankfully, I think I've

1481
01:19:56,840 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 4: managed to avoid the most alienation uh like forms of that.

1482
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:07,720
Speaker 4: But I did have a few not too long ago,

1483
01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:11,720
Speaker 4: very confidently state that this book was loosely based on

1484
01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:16,800
Speaker 4: my life story, which was news to me. I was like, word,

1485
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:22,840
Speaker 4: I didn't know that. So, like, I think, especially if

1486
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:27,120
Speaker 4: you write fiction as a person of any marginalized identity

1487
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:31,519
Speaker 4: if you're if you're black, if you're gay, if you're trans, whatever,

1488
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:35,360
Speaker 4: people are going to assume that you're writing like auto fiction.

1489
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:38,799
Speaker 4: Because I think a lot of people react to women's

1490
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:40,599
Speaker 4: fiction this way, because I think a lot of people

1491
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:45,360
Speaker 4: subconsciously have a hard time believing that like, women have

1492
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:50,559
Speaker 4: interior lives and can like imagine things, you know, Like,

1493
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:53,439
Speaker 4: I think a lot of people assume that authors are

1494
01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:56,800
Speaker 4: always writing about themselves and writing about the people in

1495
01:20:56,840 --> 01:21:02,000
Speaker 4: their lives, and uh, I mean, I'm writing about experiences

1496
01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 4: that I have had similar ones too, but like, nah, dog,

1497
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:07,439
Speaker 4: that is not how this works.

1498
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:12,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's a really great essay about this by a

1499
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:16,479
Speaker 7: friend of min named Rosemary Hoe, who's absolutely brilliant writer,

1500
01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 7: who wrote about the she she's writing about Zady Smith,

1501
01:21:21,400 --> 01:21:22,960
Speaker 7: and one of the things that she talks about is

1502
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 7: like the way that people just assume that Zadi that

1503
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:27,800
Speaker 7: like Zadie Smith's politics are just like didactically coming out

1504
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:29,040
Speaker 7: of the mouth of a character, and like, well, no,

1505
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:33,520
Speaker 7: that's not how this shit works, Like yeah.

1506
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:36,880
Speaker 4: It is. Uh, it's frustrating, and I think like a

1507
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:40,720
Speaker 4: lot of authors have their own experiences with this, so

1508
01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:43,880
Speaker 4: uh yeah, yeah, I mean I like, you have to

1509
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:48,080
Speaker 4: turn yourself into some kind of brand. That's why I'm

1510
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:52,800
Speaker 4: going on podcasts, you know, So that's all, uh you know,

1511
01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 4: that's fun, but uh, I'm trying not to like, you know,

1512
01:21:56,760 --> 01:22:01,360
Speaker 4: completely give myself over to the fucking torment nexus.

1513
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:05,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, ye, you know, And there's like, I don't know,

1514
01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:06,479
Speaker 7: this is also just like this is a way you

1515
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:08,960
Speaker 7: can just completely lose your mind. I don't know if

1516
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:11,519
Speaker 7: I've ever actually talked about this on this show. Weirdly,

1517
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:13,360
Speaker 7: one of the people whose career trajectory is the most

1518
01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:16,040
Speaker 7: similar to Minus is Asian American writer named Lesley Yang,

1519
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:18,760
Speaker 7: who was like this guy who got brought in to

1520
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:22,160
Speaker 7: write about like I think it was Columbine. It's like

1521
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:24,360
Speaker 7: some mass shooting that was like a Korean kid did

1522
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 7: his friends were like, hey, you're Asian, right about this?

1523
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 6: Oh god?

1524
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:30,640
Speaker 7: And he you know, for a bit he was like

1525
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:32,920
Speaker 7: he was like duh, Like he was like he was

1526
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:35,040
Speaker 7: like the guy who was like the big like Asian American,

1527
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:37,439
Speaker 7: like this is like the literary thinker. He was like

1528
01:22:37,479 --> 01:22:40,519
Speaker 7: interviewing Aaron Schwortz. He was doing like profiles of a

1529
01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:42,320
Speaker 7: bunch of like interesting people, and then he just became

1530
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:48,040
Speaker 7: this like incredibly boring, bog standard reactionary and he became

1531
01:22:48,080 --> 01:22:50,559
Speaker 7: one of these A very common kind of person who

1532
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:53,720
Speaker 7: you experience on the right is like someone who's experienced

1533
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:58,240
Speaker 7: who's like understanding of race comes from like watching sports

1534
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:01,760
Speaker 7: where they're like there are black players in basketball and

1535
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:03,960
Speaker 7: there's a bunch of them, and because of that, this

1536
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:06,920
Speaker 7: means that like actually black people are like overrepresented and

1537
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:09,040
Speaker 7: like as a class, they're like privilege or whatever the

1538
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:11,080
Speaker 7: fuck because there's just like a bunch of black basketball

1539
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:13,760
Speaker 7: players and I don't know, I think it's like there's

1540
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:15,599
Speaker 7: like a really interesting intersection here of like the way

1541
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:21,680
Speaker 7: that people understand politics as just like politics are just

1542
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:24,040
Speaker 7: like the thing that I see on my screen when

1543
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:27,519
Speaker 7: I'm watching football, and how we have to sort of

1544
01:23:27,640 --> 01:23:30,760
Speaker 7: like just deal with that shit and deal with the

1545
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:33,479
Speaker 7: sort of micro identity formation that is real but also

1546
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:36,519
Speaker 7: isn't like a defiction of what the world is.

1547
01:23:37,840 --> 01:23:49,639
Speaker 8: M yeah.

1548
01:23:50,120 --> 01:23:51,760
Speaker 7: So one of the interesting things in this book is

1549
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:55,400
Speaker 7: that like the right wing media, like right wing football

1550
01:23:55,439 --> 01:23:59,840
Speaker 7: media kinda isn't in it that much really, which I

1551
01:23:59,840 --> 01:24:02,000
Speaker 7: think is fascinating And I wonder part of how much

1552
01:24:02,040 --> 01:24:04,519
Speaker 7: of this is just like this was kind of a

1553
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:08,559
Speaker 7: book that was originally being written before like Aaron Rodgers

1554
01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:10,439
Speaker 7: was going up Pat McAfee show in front of like

1555
01:24:10,479 --> 01:24:12,639
Speaker 7: half a million people every single day and like screaming

1556
01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:13,439
Speaker 7: about trans people.

1557
01:24:14,200 --> 01:24:19,400
Speaker 4: M So, this book has excerpts of like articles and

1558
01:24:19,439 --> 01:24:22,840
Speaker 4: outside media and like social media, et cetera. Originally it

1559
01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:25,080
Speaker 4: had like a lot more. I had to cut a

1560
01:24:25,080 --> 01:24:28,680
Speaker 4: lot in order to make this book like legible as

1561
01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:32,679
Speaker 4: a book. This book is already like pushing the edges

1562
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 4: of what you could really communicate in ya in terms

1563
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:37,720
Speaker 4: of like I have a lot of characters, I have

1564
01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 4: a lot of shit going on, So like part of

1565
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:42,600
Speaker 4: it is just that, like I had to like you know,

1566
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,760
Speaker 4: trim et cetera. But like, yeah, originally it had a

1567
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:49,760
Speaker 4: lot more of that stuff, and there were like interstitial

1568
01:24:50,400 --> 01:24:55,479
Speaker 4: snippets from a fictional sort of like football podcaster guy

1569
01:24:55,960 --> 01:24:59,439
Speaker 4: who is like Pat McAfee and all of the like

1570
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 4: bar stool former athlete podcasters, Yeah, in a blender, and

1571
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:09,840
Speaker 4: he like he was this like really pathetic former like

1572
01:25:10,080 --> 01:25:15,519
Speaker 4: special team or linebacker who just like keeps reliving the

1573
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:16,639
Speaker 4: fucking glory days.

1574
01:25:17,160 --> 01:25:17,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1575
01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:21,479
Speaker 4: Eventually I just had to like refocus and like, yeah, yeah,

1576
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:26,760
Speaker 4: bring that conflict closer to home with like school administration's

1577
01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:31,280
Speaker 4: kind of shitty, and like there are plenty of dudes

1578
01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:35,120
Speaker 4: on the football team who also suck. So I kind

1579
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:38,400
Speaker 4: of like left it in via some like shitty tweets

1580
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:42,040
Speaker 4: that you see, or you get a lot of it,

1581
01:25:42,160 --> 01:25:46,120
Speaker 4: like indirectly you can imagine what is happening on the

1582
01:25:46,160 --> 01:25:47,479
Speaker 4: fucking Pat McAfee show.

1583
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:48,519
Speaker 2: Oh my fucking god.

1584
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, But like also part of it is what you

1585
01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:55,040
Speaker 4: said that the weird timeline of publishing means that I

1586
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:58,040
Speaker 4: started writing this book in February twenty twenty one, wrote

1587
01:25:58,080 --> 01:26:01,280
Speaker 4: the majority in twenty twenty two, and edit it in

1588
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:04,680
Speaker 4: twenty three and twenty four, and like kind of this

1589
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:10,639
Speaker 4: like very organized anti trans reaction was not as prevalent

1590
01:26:10,720 --> 01:26:13,479
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty one at all like I kind of

1591
01:26:13,640 --> 01:26:16,120
Speaker 4: had to like track it as it started to like

1592
01:26:16,680 --> 01:26:19,160
Speaker 4: really like form up a drill time. This is not

1593
01:26:19,280 --> 01:26:20,800
Speaker 4: the world that I thought I was gonna write my

1594
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 4: stupid little football book. Yeah, and and like have it

1595
01:26:25,320 --> 01:26:29,240
Speaker 4: emerge into a lot of people are say that this

1596
01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:31,680
Speaker 4: book is very timely, and I'm like, dog, this is

1597
01:26:31,680 --> 01:26:33,679
Speaker 4: a Biden administration for him through.

1598
01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:37,479
Speaker 7: So one final ball question on behalf of my beloved

1599
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:41,719
Speaker 7: and a curse Seattle Seahawks. Okay, so think about Sam Darnold,

1600
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:44,599
Speaker 7: who's now our quarterback after they traded my beloved Gito

1601
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:46,360
Speaker 7: Smith for a fucking third round pick.

1602
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:46,759
Speaker 2: Brother.

1603
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:50,160
Speaker 7: Okay, so, like, is the thing that's going to happen

1604
01:26:50,200 --> 01:26:53,680
Speaker 7: this season not just by week five? Abe Lucas goes

1605
01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:55,800
Speaker 7: down for the twelve million time whatever child they dragged

1606
01:26:55,800 --> 01:26:57,519
Speaker 7: out of a kindergarten to try to block the deal,

1607
01:26:57,520 --> 01:26:59,599
Speaker 7: one hundred gets liquifight in ten milli seconds to Sam

1608
01:26:59,640 --> 01:27:02,200
Speaker 7: Darnold just like start seeing the ghosts of men who

1609
01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 7: haven't been born yet, Like, isn't this exactly? Is this

1610
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:06,519
Speaker 7: just what's gonna happen? Why why did they build this

1611
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 7: team like this?

1612
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:13,519
Speaker 4: Can I attempt to give you a small amount of

1613
01:27:13,840 --> 01:27:15,320
Speaker 4: Seattle Seahawks optimism.

1614
01:27:15,720 --> 01:27:16,960
Speaker 7: I thought they were gonna would have lived in games

1615
01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:17,519
Speaker 7: last season.

1616
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:21,000
Speaker 4: They should have. So we lost to the Flame Giants.

1617
01:27:22,840 --> 01:27:28,280
Speaker 4: So I I really like some of what the Seahawks did.

1618
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:31,640
Speaker 4: They drafted a lot of players that I really like.

1619
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:36,639
Speaker 4: It's true they they finally took a interior offensive line

1620
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:42,800
Speaker 4: player in the first round. Congratulations, Uh yay. Gray's Abel

1621
01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:45,360
Speaker 4: is a good player. He's also a maga aed shit,

1622
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:48,599
Speaker 4: which is what you want on your offensive line. No,

1623
01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:50,920
Speaker 4: that's what you want on your offense. It's true, it's true.

1624
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:55,000
Speaker 4: But also like, god fucking damn it. So you got

1625
01:27:55,439 --> 01:28:00,720
Speaker 4: Gray's Abel. You got Jalen Milroe, who Jalen isn't good

1626
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:04,599
Speaker 4: at football right now, but a sports media friend named

1627
01:28:04,680 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 4: Derek Klassen put it that he's He's the kind of

1628
01:28:08,479 --> 01:28:10,760
Speaker 4: player you want to bet on and then be wrong about,

1629
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:15,799
Speaker 4: just just because he's fun, because he's a like legit,

1630
01:28:15,920 --> 01:28:20,120
Speaker 4: actual like special athlete special with the ball in his hand.

1631
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 2: He's cool.

1632
01:28:21,560 --> 01:28:24,240
Speaker 4: I really like Jaylen mil Roe. But you also drafted

1633
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:28,920
Speaker 4: later on. You took Tory Horden and Ricky White, who

1634
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:31,799
Speaker 4: are two of my favorite sort of like small school

1635
01:28:32,640 --> 01:28:36,360
Speaker 4: wide receivers in the draft. Hell, you took Damien Martinez,

1636
01:28:36,479 --> 01:28:38,280
Speaker 4: who is a running back who I think could end

1637
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:40,479
Speaker 4: up being a lot better than someone who's drafted in

1638
01:28:40,520 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 4: the seventh round would indicate. And also you took a

1639
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:45,280
Speaker 4: full back. You took Robbie Oates. That's great. His name

1640
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:46,960
Speaker 4: is a Robbie Oates.

1641
01:28:46,400 --> 01:28:50,720
Speaker 7: A great name, great name, old name, old name team.

1642
01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:54,680
Speaker 4: He is a He's like the squarest football player I've

1643
01:28:54,720 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 4: ever seen. Love love Robbie Oates. However, the Sam Donald

1644
01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:05,080
Speaker 4: situation is tough.

1645
01:29:05,479 --> 01:29:06,040
Speaker 3: It's tough.

1646
01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:11,639
Speaker 4: I uh, I have a hard time seeing it happen.

1647
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:15,439
Speaker 7: He would literally if you had put it behind last

1648
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:18,000
Speaker 7: year Seahawks offensive line, he literally would have died by

1649
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:20,040
Speaker 7: about week eight, like you just like straight up would

1650
01:29:20,080 --> 01:29:20,759
Speaker 7: have died on the field.

1651
01:29:21,360 --> 01:29:22,000
Speaker 2: Oh god.

1652
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:25,679
Speaker 4: Yeah. And like it's a bit better this year because

1653
01:29:25,680 --> 01:29:28,120
Speaker 4: you have friends able, but you still have Abe Lucas.

1654
01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:30,880
Speaker 7: You know, you still have a We'll have a Lucas

1655
01:29:30,920 --> 01:29:33,439
Speaker 7: for three weeks and then we won't have Abe Lucas

1656
01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:34,000
Speaker 7: and then.

1657
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:39,960
Speaker 4: And also like Sam Donald was in like the perfect

1658
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:42,599
Speaker 4: spot for him, and now he's going to be throwing

1659
01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:44,920
Speaker 4: the ball too. I mean, you know you got Cooper Cup.

1660
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:48,080
Speaker 4: You got, you know, for four weeks, got JSN, but

1661
01:29:48,200 --> 01:29:52,200
Speaker 4: you also have Marcus valdezk is he gonna is he

1662
01:29:52,240 --> 01:29:53,640
Speaker 4: gonna get load bearing snaps?

1663
01:29:53,680 --> 01:29:53,760
Speaker 7: Like?

1664
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:56,240
Speaker 4: Is that really? Is that really what you want?

1665
01:29:56,439 --> 01:29:59,600
Speaker 7: My cope last year was that was that JSN, that

1666
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:02,400
Speaker 7: Cas and Lockett was the most underrated receiver trio in

1667
01:30:02,439 --> 01:30:02,840
Speaker 7: the league.

1668
01:30:03,160 --> 01:30:03,479
Speaker 6: Yep.

1669
01:30:04,160 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 7: And this year it's like, all right, we get six

1670
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:11,080
Speaker 7: games a Cooper Cup and then we get fifth rounders.

1671
01:30:12,439 --> 01:30:13,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1672
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:15,559
Speaker 4: God, it's it's tough out here.

1673
01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:16,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1674
01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:19,680
Speaker 4: I don't expect Sam Darnold to work here, just like

1675
01:30:19,920 --> 01:30:23,519
Speaker 4: straight up, Like I have been a Sam Donald truther

1676
01:30:23,640 --> 01:30:28,120
Speaker 4: for years, but it is the classic thing of like

1677
01:30:28,640 --> 01:30:31,600
Speaker 4: I think Sam Donald's better than most people think, and

1678
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:34,120
Speaker 4: then a lot of people are like one hundred and

1679
01:30:34,120 --> 01:30:37,439
Speaker 4: thirty million dollars Sam Donald, and it's like what, hold on,

1680
01:30:37,479 --> 01:30:40,320
Speaker 4: hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I didn't

1681
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 4: think he was that good. I didn't think he was

1682
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:44,200
Speaker 4: traded Gino Smith good.

1683
01:30:44,520 --> 01:30:49,360
Speaker 7: No, oh god, So that's unfortunate. Yeah, so this this that,

1684
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:55,120
Speaker 7: this has been the football section of this of this podcast. Yeah, Sotoria,

1685
01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:56,800
Speaker 7: do you have anything else that you want to say

1686
01:30:56,840 --> 01:30:58,559
Speaker 7: before we head out? And where should people buy your

1687
01:30:58,560 --> 01:30:59,080
Speaker 7: book from?

1688
01:30:59,479 --> 01:31:01,559
Speaker 4: Not Amazon on that's like really all I have to

1689
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:02,160
Speaker 4: say about that.

1690
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:04,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of.

1691
01:31:04,040 --> 01:31:06,920
Speaker 4: The boys, my name is Victoria Zeller, and you just

1692
01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:10,959
Speaker 4: buy that from bookshop, buy it from your local indie.

1693
01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:14,000
Speaker 4: You can buy it from Barnes and Noble because we

1694
01:31:14,040 --> 01:31:16,280
Speaker 4: don't hate them as much as we hate Amazon. But

1695
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:18,840
Speaker 4: like I would say, buy it from your local indie

1696
01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:22,719
Speaker 4: bookstore is like ideal for me. I make the same

1697
01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:25,360
Speaker 4: amount of money wherever you buy it, so it doesn't matter.

1698
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:27,599
Speaker 4: But if you want to sign copy, you can also

1699
01:31:27,680 --> 01:31:31,240
Speaker 4: order it from my home bookstore, So there's that.

1700
01:31:31,360 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 3: Hell.

1701
01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:35,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, my website is a Victoria dot monster

1702
01:31:36,120 --> 01:31:37,400
Speaker 4: and all my links are there.

1703
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:37,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1704
01:31:37,840 --> 01:31:40,240
Speaker 7: Okay, I realized I had an actual final question that

1705
01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:42,000
Speaker 7: I wanted to ask it I forgot to do before

1706
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,680
Speaker 7: this the fucking we started the intro, so I apologize.

1707
01:31:45,479 --> 01:31:48,680
Speaker 7: So the odds here are much much higher than they

1708
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:51,680
Speaker 7: are in most places that there's going to be some

1709
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:54,639
Speaker 7: queer kids who fucking play ball to some extent listening

1710
01:31:54,680 --> 01:31:57,280
Speaker 7: to it, And I wanted to I'm throwing something from

1711
01:31:57,280 --> 01:32:00,519
Speaker 7: your book at you, which is I know, to the

1712
01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:02,120
Speaker 7: what did you say it to the kiddos who are

1713
01:32:02,320 --> 01:32:02,960
Speaker 7: going through it.

1714
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:09,640
Speaker 4: This is so mean. Okay, Okay, I'm going to be

1715
01:32:10,520 --> 01:32:13,439
Speaker 4: real with you right now. Guys, do what's best for you. Yeah,

1716
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:16,280
Speaker 4: fight if you have it in you to fight, But like,

1717
01:32:16,960 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 4: you got to be a kid first and foremost, and

1718
01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:25,559
Speaker 4: like trans kids, queer kids deserve the chance to be

1719
01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:32,200
Speaker 4: fucking kids. They deserve the chance to make mistakes and

1720
01:32:33,560 --> 01:32:39,120
Speaker 4: listen to music too loudly in their friends shitty car,

1721
01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:43,080
Speaker 4: and they deserve to play sports if that's what they

1722
01:32:43,120 --> 01:32:45,320
Speaker 4: want to do. I think in a lot of ways,

1723
01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:48,320
Speaker 4: my book is about how we ask teenagers to be

1724
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:51,719
Speaker 4: braver than they should be, and I think that's bullshit.

1725
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:54,479
Speaker 4: So I'm not going to put it on You have

1726
01:32:54,520 --> 01:32:57,840
Speaker 4: as much fun as you can, like ball if you can,

1727
01:32:58,680 --> 01:33:02,400
Speaker 4: but do but makes you happy and when and what

1728
01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:06,600
Speaker 4: feels safe to you is like really all I've got, Like,

1729
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:10,040
Speaker 4: you know, just have fun while you're able to as

1730
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:12,719
Speaker 4: a child is like yeah.

1731
01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:14,599
Speaker 7: No, And it's like, yeah, it's not if you are

1732
01:33:14,720 --> 01:33:17,800
Speaker 7: like a little ass kid A I have so sorry

1733
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:20,280
Speaker 7: for how much U s We're on the show. Be like,

1734
01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:22,280
Speaker 7: it is not up to you right now to save

1735
01:33:22,320 --> 01:33:24,840
Speaker 7: the world. That is the job of fucking everyone else

1736
01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:27,120
Speaker 7: who listens to the show. Like, if you want there

1737
01:33:27,120 --> 01:33:29,439
Speaker 7: to be more queer athletes, if you want trans kids

1738
01:33:29,439 --> 01:33:31,280
Speaker 7: to be able to be kids, that shit's on you.

1739
01:33:31,520 --> 01:33:33,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, all of the rest of you who listen to

1740
01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:34,080
Speaker 2: the show, if you are.

1741
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:36,439
Speaker 7: Also like the fucking one bazillion trans people listen to

1742
01:33:36,479 --> 01:33:37,840
Speaker 7: the show, this is like a bit less on you

1743
01:33:37,880 --> 01:33:40,760
Speaker 7: than it is on fucking everyone else. But yeah, but

1744
01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:43,080
Speaker 7: the best time do I started organizing was like five

1745
01:33:43,160 --> 01:33:45,240
Speaker 7: years ago. The second best time is right now, and

1746
01:33:45,320 --> 01:33:48,759
Speaker 7: the best time after that is tomorrow. So go fucking

1747
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:51,680
Speaker 7: build a world where trans kids can be kids and

1748
01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:52,479
Speaker 7: fall out.

1749
01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:57,320
Speaker 4: Let kids like me hoop, let them hoop, let them

1750
01:33:57,400 --> 01:34:00,960
Speaker 4: hit dingers, let them ball.

1751
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:03,160
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, my people need rings.

1752
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:07,760
Speaker 4: My people need titles, they need trophies, they need championships.

1753
01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:33,400
Speaker 9: Hello, and welcome to It could happen here today. We

1754
01:34:33,640 --> 01:34:38,360
Speaker 9: are talking about white genocide. And when I think of genocide,

1755
01:34:38,360 --> 01:34:41,559
Speaker 9: there is only one name that comes to mind, and

1756
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:42,519
Speaker 9: it's Molly Congo.

1757
01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:43,719
Speaker 2: Molly, Welcome.

1758
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:48,560
Speaker 9: I just I wanted you to be here as we

1759
01:34:48,640 --> 01:34:50,280
Speaker 9: talked about the genocide of the white race.

1760
01:34:50,680 --> 01:34:52,960
Speaker 10: I mean, who better to talk about it than two

1761
01:34:53,000 --> 01:34:54,000
Speaker 10: pasty fellas like us.

1762
01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:57,200
Speaker 9: M hmm, yeah, yeah, I'm sure we're like soon for

1763
01:34:57,240 --> 01:35:01,160
Speaker 9: the chopping block here, Molly, what's happening?

1764
01:35:01,640 --> 01:35:02,639
Speaker 2: Why are we Why?

1765
01:35:02,840 --> 01:35:05,280
Speaker 9: Well, I will explain a little bit of what's happening,

1766
01:35:05,320 --> 01:35:07,160
Speaker 9: and then you can tell me how on earth we

1767
01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:11,759
Speaker 9: got here. The United States terminated its refugee admissions program

1768
01:35:11,880 --> 01:35:15,439
Speaker 9: in January of this year, right when Donald Trump became

1769
01:35:15,439 --> 01:35:19,320
Speaker 9: the president and signed a time of executive orders. So

1770
01:35:19,400 --> 01:35:22,200
Speaker 9: since then, the United States has not admitted any refugees.

1771
01:35:22,240 --> 01:35:25,800
Speaker 9: In February, it also stopped. The United States terminated its

1772
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:30,080
Speaker 9: cooperative agreement with refugee resettlement agencies, which meant that even

1773
01:35:30,160 --> 01:35:33,559
Speaker 9: refugees who had arrived weren't getting the assistance that they

1774
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:39,160
Speaker 9: previously got. However, on the twelfth of May, the United

1775
01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:43,879
Speaker 9: States have admitted fifty nine Africana refugees from South Africa,

1776
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:47,679
Speaker 9: and concurrently, Donald Trump told the press that what's happening

1777
01:35:47,840 --> 01:35:51,479
Speaker 9: was a genocide of the white people. He said it

1778
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:53,519
Speaker 9: wasn't because they were white. He said there was black people.

1779
01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:56,160
Speaker 9: He would do the same thing. I mean, there are

1780
01:35:56,160 --> 01:35:59,240
Speaker 9: several genocides impacting black people right now, and they are

1781
01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:03,160
Speaker 9: not getting refugee admissions to the United States. Apparently these

1782
01:36:03,160 --> 01:36:07,760
Speaker 9: people are being genocided. So Molly, can you explain what's

1783
01:36:07,760 --> 01:36:10,759
Speaker 9: going on here? How the white genocide happened?

1784
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:13,360
Speaker 10: Sure, I mean, the short answer to that question is,

1785
01:36:13,400 --> 01:36:15,760
Speaker 10: it is not happening. It is not real. It is

1786
01:36:15,800 --> 01:36:18,759
Speaker 10: not a thing that is happening or in my opinion,

1787
01:36:18,920 --> 01:36:22,639
Speaker 10: really could meaningfully happen under the conditions that they're talking about.

1788
01:36:23,280 --> 01:36:26,559
Speaker 10: So again, like you said, they have terminated all refugee

1789
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:30,000
Speaker 10: resettlement programs. So people coming from active war zones, active

1790
01:36:30,040 --> 01:36:33,240
Speaker 10: ongoing genocides, people fleeing political persecution all over the world.

1791
01:36:33,720 --> 01:36:36,439
Speaker 10: They don't deserve our help. They don't need our help anymore. Right,

1792
01:36:37,160 --> 01:36:40,960
Speaker 10: But these people, these people from South Africa are uniquely

1793
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:43,840
Speaker 10: experiencing the worst thing that could happen to a person,

1794
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:48,880
Speaker 10: I guess, which is white genocide. So white genocide, I

1795
01:36:48,920 --> 01:36:53,000
Speaker 10: think is often sort of used interchangeably with great replacement theory.

1796
01:36:53,040 --> 01:36:55,519
Speaker 10: So the white genocide conspiracy theory and the great replacement theory,

1797
01:36:55,560 --> 01:36:58,200
Speaker 10: I think they're hand in hand. They're very similar, there's

1798
01:36:58,200 --> 01:37:01,400
Speaker 10: a lot of overlap, and they're used interchange but white

1799
01:37:01,400 --> 01:37:04,799
Speaker 10: genocide is much more specific and it's more recent iteration

1800
01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:07,960
Speaker 10: on the theme. It comes from a mid nineties book

1801
01:37:08,000 --> 01:37:11,040
Speaker 10: written in prison by a neo Nazi terrorist named David Lane.

1802
01:37:11,920 --> 01:37:17,280
Speaker 10: David Lane notably coined the fourteen words we know, you know,

1803
01:37:17,280 --> 01:37:19,760
Speaker 10: the fourteen we don't need to say. He had a

1804
01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:23,400
Speaker 10: lot of anxiety that if we don't do something, white

1805
01:37:23,439 --> 01:37:26,360
Speaker 10: people will become extinct, will be pushed out of existence

1806
01:37:26,520 --> 01:37:30,120
Speaker 10: by immigrants who are out breeding us. You know, there's

1807
01:37:30,560 --> 01:37:34,400
Speaker 10: this sort of concurrent belief that pornography, which is, you know,

1808
01:37:34,560 --> 01:37:36,880
Speaker 10: in their minds, something that is a Jewish tool of

1809
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:38,800
Speaker 10: oppression of the white race. That is, you know, it's

1810
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:42,400
Speaker 10: causing us to do interbreeding, it's deluding our bloodlines. So

1811
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:45,559
Speaker 10: you know, all of these things together are going to

1812
01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:49,479
Speaker 10: push white people out of existence, which again not happening,

1813
01:37:49,640 --> 01:37:52,320
Speaker 10: not true, not a real thing that can happen, but

1814
01:37:52,360 --> 01:37:56,200
Speaker 10: it's something they're very anxious about. But when you spend

1815
01:37:56,240 --> 01:37:58,320
Speaker 10: a lot of time talking about how white people are

1816
01:37:58,320 --> 01:38:01,240
Speaker 10: being pushed out of existence, you've got to be able

1817
01:38:01,280 --> 01:38:02,960
Speaker 10: to point to something. You have to point to a

1818
01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:05,840
Speaker 10: place where a white person has been meaningfully harmed, and

1819
01:38:05,880 --> 01:38:09,559
Speaker 10: they can't really do that to the talking point that

1820
01:38:09,560 --> 01:38:12,240
Speaker 10: they fall back on most often when you're talking about

1821
01:38:12,280 --> 01:38:14,880
Speaker 10: white genocide, you know, you're really wringing your hands about this,

1822
01:38:14,920 --> 01:38:16,320
Speaker 10: and you have to be able to point to something.

1823
01:38:16,400 --> 01:38:20,800
Speaker 10: They point to the South African farm murders. Is this

1824
01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:25,120
Speaker 10: idea that white farmers in South Africa are being targeted

1825
01:38:25,160 --> 01:38:29,479
Speaker 10: for murder and mass that is this massive ongoing campaign

1826
01:38:29,560 --> 01:38:34,000
Speaker 10: of violence, which again is not happening and is not true.

1827
01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:37,920
Speaker 10: There is a more violent crime in the country of

1828
01:38:37,960 --> 01:38:42,200
Speaker 10: South Africa than in other similarly positioned nations. They do

1829
01:38:42,280 --> 01:38:44,479
Speaker 10: have a little bit more violent crime than we do here,

1830
01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:47,439
Speaker 10: for instance, But if you break down the numbers and

1831
01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:50,280
Speaker 10: they have they have conducted a multi year study of this,

1832
01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:54,960
Speaker 10: you know, hypothetical phenomenon. White farmers are not being targeted

1833
01:38:54,960 --> 01:38:57,559
Speaker 10: for murder. They're not being murdered in larger numbers than

1834
01:38:57,560 --> 01:39:00,000
Speaker 10: any other demographic. It's just not a thing that's happened.

1835
01:39:00,400 --> 01:39:03,519
Speaker 9: Yeah, I know, it's almost like a laughable claim or like,

1836
01:39:03,640 --> 01:39:07,960
Speaker 9: except that it's also terribly sad when like Israel, it's

1837
01:39:08,040 --> 01:39:10,800
Speaker 9: just kind of Babe ruthing a genocide in Garza. Now

1838
01:39:10,800 --> 01:39:14,120
Speaker 9: they're not even trying to pretend anymore. They're like, no,

1839
01:39:14,160 --> 01:39:16,240
Speaker 9: we're going to kill everyone by starving them. That's what

1840
01:39:16,560 --> 01:39:19,000
Speaker 9: we would like to do. And obviously those people cannot

1841
01:39:19,080 --> 01:39:22,200
Speaker 9: enter the United States. It's refugees, but these folks from

1842
01:39:22,240 --> 01:39:26,120
Speaker 9: South Africa can. How did it go from any Nazi

1843
01:39:26,160 --> 01:39:28,960
Speaker 9: in prison to the brain of the President of the

1844
01:39:29,080 --> 01:39:29,799
Speaker 9: United States.

1845
01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:34,519
Speaker 10: I mean that idea sort of filtered into American right

1846
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:39,080
Speaker 10: wing think space over the last I guess thirty years

1847
01:39:39,120 --> 01:39:44,400
Speaker 10: since Lane wrote that manifesto from prison, slowly and through

1848
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:49,160
Speaker 10: multiple origin points. But I have argued repeatedly over the

1849
01:39:49,240 --> 01:39:51,160
Speaker 10: last several months that we can point to you exactly

1850
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:53,920
Speaker 10: the moment that Donald Trump heard about this. There is

1851
01:39:53,960 --> 01:39:57,160
Speaker 10: a specific moment in time in August of twenty eighteen

1852
01:39:57,960 --> 01:40:00,720
Speaker 10: when Donald Trump first found out the plight of the

1853
01:40:00,720 --> 01:40:03,040
Speaker 10: white South African and I have the date somewhere in

1854
01:40:03,040 --> 01:40:04,600
Speaker 10: my notes, but it was it was one evening in

1855
01:40:04,640 --> 01:40:08,320
Speaker 10: August of twenty eighteen when he was watching Tucker Carlson Shocking.

1856
01:40:08,840 --> 01:40:11,000
Speaker 10: He was watching an episode of Tucker's show back when

1857
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:13,839
Speaker 10: it was still on TV, and he had some policy

1858
01:40:13,880 --> 01:40:17,040
Speaker 10: analysts from the Heritage Foundation on to talk about this,

1859
01:40:17,040 --> 01:40:20,240
Speaker 10: this terrible thing that's happening. And about forty five minutes

1860
01:40:20,280 --> 01:40:24,200
Speaker 10: after that segment aired, Donald Trump tweeted the word Africa

1861
01:40:24,280 --> 01:40:29,080
Speaker 10: for the first time. He has tweeted thousands and thousands

1862
01:40:29,080 --> 01:40:32,360
Speaker 10: and thousands of times about a lot about Robert Pattinson's

1863
01:40:32,400 --> 01:40:35,120
Speaker 10: relationship with Kristen Stewart, you know, things about diet coke,

1864
01:40:35,200 --> 01:40:36,000
Speaker 10: things about vaccines.

1865
01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:36,880
Speaker 7: He's tweeted a lot of things.

1866
01:40:36,880 --> 01:40:40,160
Speaker 10: But he tweeted about Africa for the first time forty

1867
01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:42,360
Speaker 10: five minutes after the segment on Tucker Carlson, and he

1868
01:40:42,560 --> 01:40:45,559
Speaker 10: had bought into this idea that these people are being

1869
01:40:45,640 --> 01:40:46,720
Speaker 10: uniquely persecuted.

1870
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:47,640
Speaker 6: God.

1871
01:40:48,160 --> 01:40:52,719
Speaker 9: Yeah, Carlson has mainstreamed a lot of these like white

1872
01:40:52,800 --> 01:40:55,640
Speaker 9: nationalists talking points, but yeah, this one. And you have

1873
01:40:55,640 --> 01:40:57,320
Speaker 9: a really good series on this on your show, right,

1874
01:40:57,360 --> 01:40:59,680
Speaker 9: Like if people want to people want to learn more

1875
01:40:59,720 --> 01:41:04,400
Speaker 9: about the plight of the Africana, you can explain that

1876
01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:05,599
Speaker 9: over several hours.

1877
01:41:05,720 --> 01:41:09,280
Speaker 10: Yes, I spent three months sort of tracing this story

1878
01:41:09,800 --> 01:41:12,559
Speaker 10: in hainstaking detail. If you're interested in checking that out

1879
01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:14,600
Speaker 10: over on We'd Little Guys.

1880
01:41:15,360 --> 01:41:16,120
Speaker 2: And you should. It's great.

1881
01:41:16,160 --> 01:41:21,000
Speaker 9: It's great, good podcast. I highly recommend. So, like we've

1882
01:41:21,040 --> 01:41:24,439
Speaker 9: seen this thing gradually gained momentum, I guess. And then

1883
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:28,000
Speaker 9: at some point obviously someone got into Trump's here in

1884
01:41:28,040 --> 01:41:32,479
Speaker 9: the last month and he made an executive order right.

1885
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:34,360
Speaker 2: He shared the secret Order.

1886
01:41:34,360 --> 01:41:37,800
Speaker 9: I'm just going to read from it now, quote refugee

1887
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:41,400
Speaker 9: resettlement and other humanitarian considerations. The Secretary of State and

1888
01:41:41,439 --> 01:41:44,799
Speaker 9: the Secretary of Homeland Security shall take appropriate steps consistent

1889
01:41:44,840 --> 01:41:49,920
Speaker 9: with law to prioritize yeah, law, yea, we're gonna get

1890
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:53,960
Speaker 9: to that, to prioritize humanitarian relief, including a mission and

1891
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:58,480
Speaker 9: resettlement through the United States refuge Admissions Program for Africanas

1892
01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:01,920
Speaker 9: in South Africa who are victims of unjust racial discrimination.

1893
01:42:02,280 --> 01:42:04,400
Speaker 9: Such plan should be submitted to the President through the

1894
01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:07,880
Speaker 9: Assistant to the President and Homeland Security Advisor.

1895
01:42:08,920 --> 01:42:10,280
Speaker 2: So like he's.

1896
01:42:10,160 --> 01:42:14,160
Speaker 9: Asking them to develop a plan basically for resettling these

1897
01:42:14,200 --> 01:42:17,160
Speaker 9: white South Africans in the United States, right.

1898
01:42:17,439 --> 01:42:19,519
Speaker 10: Right, So when he says that it's not about race, now,

1899
01:42:19,560 --> 01:42:20,880
Speaker 10: when he's pushed on that now and he says, oh,

1900
01:42:20,880 --> 01:42:23,080
Speaker 10: it's not about race, it's not because they're white. They

1901
01:42:23,080 --> 01:42:26,479
Speaker 10: word Afrikaaners appears in the executive order, and that doesn't

1902
01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:29,719
Speaker 10: just mean South. That's not a demographic term for people

1903
01:42:29,720 --> 01:42:32,320
Speaker 10: from South Africa. It is a racial term for the

1904
01:42:32,360 --> 01:42:35,880
Speaker 10: descendants of Dutch settlers. Those people are white.

1905
01:42:36,080 --> 01:42:39,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, No, Like by definition, right, they are white South Africans.

1906
01:42:40,280 --> 01:42:43,960
Speaker 9: They are like therefore definitionly the group that benefited from

1907
01:42:44,040 --> 01:42:45,439
Speaker 9: the apartheid era very much.

1908
01:42:45,439 --> 01:42:45,519
Speaker 7: So.

1909
01:42:45,920 --> 01:42:50,120
Speaker 9: As if this wasn't clear enough, Christopher Landau appeared at

1910
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:55,880
Speaker 9: a press conference meeting these refugees wearing an orange white

1911
01:42:55,960 --> 01:42:58,719
Speaker 9: and blue tie. It's quite a unique tie. I actually

1912
01:42:58,760 --> 01:43:02,000
Speaker 9: googled orange white and blue. I couldn't find one for

1913
01:43:02,040 --> 01:43:03,920
Speaker 9: people who are not familiar. That is the part idea

1914
01:43:03,920 --> 01:43:06,200
Speaker 9: of flag of the Republic of South Africa.

1915
01:43:06,840 --> 01:43:11,280
Speaker 10: That is a deep cut. The decision to use that

1916
01:43:11,360 --> 01:43:16,360
Speaker 10: particular color scheme when you're greeting these bore refugees is

1917
01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:18,320
Speaker 10: very intentional and very odd.

1918
01:43:18,680 --> 01:43:21,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's got to be a choice, right, Like, no

1919
01:43:21,120 --> 01:43:24,120
Speaker 9: one has a striped orange white and navy blue tie

1920
01:43:24,439 --> 01:43:26,360
Speaker 9: like lying around.

1921
01:43:26,479 --> 01:43:29,680
Speaker 10: And the sort of dedication to reviving that as a

1922
01:43:29,760 --> 01:43:34,640
Speaker 10: symbol is not without precedent. So with Dylan Rufe, the

1923
01:43:34,760 --> 01:43:37,800
Speaker 10: Charleston church murderer, had on patches, he had the flag

1924
01:43:37,800 --> 01:43:40,439
Speaker 10: of Rhodesia. Obviously they love Rhodesia. Yeah, but he had

1925
01:43:40,479 --> 01:43:43,519
Speaker 10: the apartheid era orange white and blue South African flag

1926
01:43:44,400 --> 01:43:48,920
Speaker 10: and that was strange and unique enough as a symbol

1927
01:43:48,920 --> 01:43:51,639
Speaker 10: that an American would dig up and identify with yes.

1928
01:43:51,680 --> 01:43:54,200
Speaker 10: So the South African press noted it at the time

1929
01:43:54,280 --> 01:43:55,400
Speaker 10: of the Charleston church shooting.

1930
01:43:55,800 --> 01:43:57,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was not in the mainstream.

1931
01:43:57,640 --> 01:43:59,960
Speaker 10: That is a troubling sartorial trie.

1932
01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:03,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, it's it is worrying, like there's yes, like

1933
01:44:03,880 --> 01:44:07,120
Speaker 9: you says, there's a line from the from the africaas

1934
01:44:07,120 --> 01:44:11,479
Speaker 9: through Dylan Roof to this horrific ideology. Right, do you

1935
01:44:11,479 --> 01:44:14,200
Speaker 9: know what what probably doesn't have a direct line to

1936
01:44:14,240 --> 01:44:15,920
Speaker 9: a part We can't be sure of that, I guess,

1937
01:44:16,240 --> 01:44:18,960
Speaker 9: but hopefully hopefully that these products and services do not

1938
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:20,720
Speaker 9: have a direct through line from apartheid.

1939
01:44:20,880 --> 01:44:23,280
Speaker 10: Well, probably it's not the Washington State patrol again.

1940
01:44:23,800 --> 01:44:36,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, we're back. Hopefully that was something nice.

1941
01:44:36,880 --> 01:44:38,720
Speaker 9: I want to talk a little bit about the US

1942
01:44:38,800 --> 01:44:42,760
Speaker 9: Refugee of Missions program. So I think people sometimes misunderstand

1943
01:44:43,439 --> 01:44:46,240
Speaker 9: the program, what it means, where it comes from, who

1944
01:44:46,240 --> 01:44:48,439
Speaker 9: it's for. So to begin with, like, I want to

1945
01:44:48,479 --> 01:44:51,120
Speaker 9: distinguish between asylum seekers and refugees because I think in

1946
01:44:51,280 --> 01:44:56,320
Speaker 9: like the popular lexicon, these two words are used interchangeably.

1947
01:44:57,000 --> 01:45:00,719
Speaker 9: A refugee is outside of the United States and makes

1948
01:45:01,080 --> 01:45:04,519
Speaker 9: an application through the US Refugee Admissions Program, and that

1949
01:45:04,640 --> 01:45:09,640
Speaker 9: application is processed and approved or rejected or delayed or

1950
01:45:10,520 --> 01:45:12,360
Speaker 9: left for years and years and years while they are

1951
01:45:12,400 --> 01:45:15,960
Speaker 9: outside the United States. An asylum seeker is someone who

1952
01:45:16,000 --> 01:45:18,479
Speaker 9: is either inside the United States or presenting at the

1953
01:45:18,479 --> 01:45:21,559
Speaker 9: border of the United States and requesting asylum. So they're

1954
01:45:21,600 --> 01:45:22,640
Speaker 9: different categories.

1955
01:45:22,720 --> 01:45:22,920
Speaker 2: Right.

1956
01:45:23,520 --> 01:45:28,920
Speaker 9: Generally, to be a refugee, one has to register with

1957
01:45:28,960 --> 01:45:33,320
Speaker 9: the United Nations High Commission on Refugees, and thus one

1958
01:45:33,360 --> 01:45:38,639
Speaker 9: has to have fled one's home country. It's somewhat notable

1959
01:45:38,680 --> 01:45:41,719
Speaker 9: that this flight came from Johannesburg, right, Like these people

1960
01:45:42,400 --> 01:45:43,679
Speaker 9: were in South Africa.

1961
01:45:44,040 --> 01:45:48,640
Speaker 10: Well, apparently DHS set up office space in Pretoria and

1962
01:45:48,640 --> 01:45:51,200
Speaker 10: they were conducted these interviews in Pretoria.

1963
01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:54,000
Speaker 9: Right, which again is unusual. Right, So you have to

1964
01:45:54,080 --> 01:45:57,360
Speaker 9: normally go to a resettlement support center.

1965
01:45:57,640 --> 01:45:57,840
Speaker 3: Right.

1966
01:45:58,160 --> 01:46:00,360
Speaker 9: And I want to talk about the process of background

1967
01:46:00,439 --> 01:46:03,800
Speaker 9: checks in a minute, because surprise surprises didn't happen here,

1968
01:46:03,840 --> 01:46:06,559
Speaker 9: at least not as far as I'm aware. If it did,

1969
01:46:06,600 --> 01:46:08,519
Speaker 9: it to the most expedited version of this process that

1970
01:46:08,560 --> 01:46:12,599
Speaker 9: we've ever seen. So these refugees have been admitted as

1971
01:46:12,720 --> 01:46:16,080
Speaker 9: P one refugees, and people talk about P one like

1972
01:46:16,120 --> 01:46:19,840
Speaker 9: it's a visa category. It's not actually it's a priority category.

1973
01:46:20,160 --> 01:46:23,639
Speaker 9: There are four priority categories for people getting refugee visas.

1974
01:46:24,360 --> 01:46:28,960
Speaker 9: P one cases, the highest priority, are normally referred by embassies,

1975
01:46:29,400 --> 01:46:33,080
Speaker 9: the United Nations High Commission on Refugees, or non governmental organizations.

1976
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:35,439
Speaker 9: If people have heard of this at all, it's probably

1977
01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:38,559
Speaker 9: with reference to Afghan folks who worked with the United

1978
01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:42,400
Speaker 9: States who are not being omitted in the United States

1979
01:46:42,560 --> 01:46:45,439
Speaker 9: refuge emission program right now. Some of them are stuck

1980
01:46:45,479 --> 01:46:48,479
Speaker 9: in third countries, even at airports if they don't have

1981
01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:51,960
Speaker 9: a visa for that third country, right, waiting to work out,

1982
01:46:52,320 --> 01:46:54,679
Speaker 9: like what the US is going to do this time

1983
01:46:54,720 --> 01:46:58,679
Speaker 9: after lying to them for decades and letting them down again.

1984
01:46:58,960 --> 01:47:01,800
Speaker 10: And unlike these realists state agents from Johannesburg, they can't

1985
01:47:01,800 --> 01:47:02,839
Speaker 10: just go back home.

1986
01:47:03,400 --> 01:47:06,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, right, like that they actually have fear of persecution

1987
01:47:06,400 --> 01:47:09,160
Speaker 9: if they do, which is not the case for the

1988
01:47:09,240 --> 01:47:12,519
Speaker 9: South African folks. P two are people like there are

1989
01:47:12,600 --> 01:47:16,599
Speaker 9: special groups designated for humanitarian concern like some congal these

1990
01:47:16,600 --> 01:47:20,759
Speaker 9: people living in Rwanda in the past, and Bermese groups

1991
01:47:20,800 --> 01:47:24,680
Speaker 9: living in Thailand have been P two. P three are

1992
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:27,880
Speaker 9: family reunification cases, so you can you know if one

1993
01:47:27,880 --> 01:47:30,040
Speaker 9: person has refugee status come to the United States so

1994
01:47:30,040 --> 01:47:32,400
Speaker 9: they can bring the rest of their family. And then

1995
01:47:32,520 --> 01:47:35,400
Speaker 9: P four are people who have sponsors to something called

1996
01:47:35,400 --> 01:47:39,640
Speaker 9: the Welcome Core. Familiar with a Welcome Core, Molly, I

1997
01:47:39,640 --> 01:47:39,880
Speaker 9: am not.

1998
01:47:40,479 --> 01:47:40,639
Speaker 3: No.

1999
01:47:40,680 --> 01:47:42,840
Speaker 9: It sounds like the coolest brand to the military, you know,

2000
01:47:42,920 --> 01:47:45,679
Speaker 9: like like you've got the Marines and then the Welcome

2001
01:47:45,720 --> 01:47:47,880
Speaker 9: Core next door. The Welcome Core was set up in

2002
01:47:47,920 --> 01:47:51,360
Speaker 9: twenty twenty three by the Biden administration to allow five

2003
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:54,439
Speaker 9: US citizens I think a minimum of five to get

2004
01:47:54,479 --> 01:47:57,240
Speaker 9: together to sponsor someone for refuge admission for the United

2005
01:47:57,240 --> 01:48:01,160
Speaker 9: States and basically take responsibility for their house seeing and

2006
01:48:01,200 --> 01:48:04,719
Speaker 9: for like reorienting them in the US community, right, getting

2007
01:48:04,720 --> 01:48:08,639
Speaker 9: their kids enrolled in school, helping them find a job,

2008
01:48:08,720 --> 01:48:11,280
Speaker 9: all that kind of stuff. It was a cool program.

2009
01:48:11,439 --> 01:48:15,679
Speaker 9: It lasted less than two years. That Donald Trump rolled

2010
01:48:15,680 --> 01:48:19,360
Speaker 9: that up in January of twenty twenty five, so we

2011
01:48:19,680 --> 01:48:23,680
Speaker 9: don't really have P four cases anymore. So all admissions

2012
01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:26,200
Speaker 9: were holding in January and February, the government, as I said,

2013
01:48:26,240 --> 01:48:30,360
Speaker 9: cut all cooperative agreements with resettlement agencies. So let's talk

2014
01:48:30,400 --> 01:48:34,560
Speaker 9: about what the normal process looks like for refugees. Generally,

2015
01:48:34,640 --> 01:48:39,160
Speaker 9: they require several years of background checks and interviews. For many,

2016
01:48:39,360 --> 01:48:42,080
Speaker 9: it's not possible in their countries. For most right, for instance,

2017
01:48:42,080 --> 01:48:46,400
Speaker 9: there is not a resettlement support center in Afghanistan, so

2018
01:48:46,400 --> 01:48:48,000
Speaker 9: people have to leave. That's how you see them in

2019
01:48:48,040 --> 01:48:51,200
Speaker 9: Pakistan right. What you're seeing now actually is Afghan people

2020
01:48:51,240 --> 01:48:54,200
Speaker 9: who are in Pakistan have timed out on their visas

2021
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:58,840
Speaker 9: in Pakistan, so they're now facing like immigration enforcement there

2022
01:48:59,240 --> 01:49:01,479
Speaker 9: because they haven't been able to get resettled in the

2023
01:49:01,640 --> 01:49:07,240
Speaker 9: US before their Pakistan visa expires. They go through medical

2024
01:49:07,320 --> 01:49:11,040
Speaker 9: and biometric checks. There are at least two interviews. There

2025
01:49:11,040 --> 01:49:14,200
Speaker 9: are security checks. When they do their first interview, they

2026
01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:16,880
Speaker 9: have to give in things like their identifying documents, work history,

2027
01:49:17,120 --> 01:49:19,679
Speaker 9: declare of their family relationships, all that kind of stuff.

2028
01:49:20,080 --> 01:49:22,400
Speaker 9: Then they have an interview with US Citizenship and Immigration

2029
01:49:22,479 --> 01:49:26,040
Speaker 9: Service after that. Then if they are admitted, they take

2030
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:30,439
Speaker 9: cultural orientation classes before traveling. If that's when you learn

2031
01:49:30,520 --> 01:49:32,959
Speaker 9: how to be an American. I don't know what involves,

2032
01:49:33,320 --> 01:49:36,120
Speaker 9: but they have to take those before they come, and

2033
01:49:36,160 --> 01:49:40,080
Speaker 9: then the US government works with the iom for travel right,

2034
01:49:40,160 --> 01:49:42,920
Speaker 9: and that travel is funded through a zero interest loan

2035
01:49:43,280 --> 01:49:48,160
Speaker 9: to the refugee. So like in every other case, you

2036
01:49:48,320 --> 01:49:50,240
Speaker 9: pay for your flight. You have to pay it back

2037
01:49:50,240 --> 01:49:52,320
Speaker 9: starting six months when you get to the United States.

2038
01:49:52,840 --> 01:49:56,280
Speaker 9: That has not been the case for our Africana refugee friends,

2039
01:49:56,400 --> 01:49:58,880
Speaker 9: right that it appears that the United States government chartered

2040
01:49:58,880 --> 01:50:02,960
Speaker 9: a flight on their behalf. Once the refugees arrive, they

2041
01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:06,439
Speaker 9: are referred to a resettlement agency. Some of the names

2042
01:50:06,439 --> 01:50:10,080
Speaker 9: people might be familiar with, like Highest their Hebrew Immigrant

2043
01:50:10,120 --> 01:50:14,559
Speaker 9: Aid Society, who have literally been resettling refugees since the

2044
01:50:14,640 --> 01:50:17,439
Speaker 9: refugee in asylum see GA category was created right as

2045
01:50:17,479 --> 01:50:21,400
Speaker 9: a response to the Holocaust. Maybe IRC is another one

2046
01:50:21,400 --> 01:50:22,559
Speaker 9: people are familiar with.

2047
01:50:22,560 --> 01:50:26,600
Speaker 10: Which, interestingly, Hyas was the target of ire of a

2048
01:50:26,760 --> 01:50:30,960
Speaker 10: great replacement theory motivated mass shooter here in America. Yesbert

2049
01:50:31,040 --> 01:50:33,880
Speaker 10: Robert Bauers posted a lot about Hyas in the days

2050
01:50:33,920 --> 01:50:36,240
Speaker 10: and weeks before he carried out that mass shooting.

2051
01:50:36,640 --> 01:50:39,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, the Tree of Life Synagogue. People aren't familiar. Yeah,

2052
01:50:39,640 --> 01:50:41,920
Speaker 9: and that was at the time of the quote unquote

2053
01:50:42,000 --> 01:50:45,559
Speaker 9: migrant caravan fall of twenty eighteen, would.

2054
01:50:45,320 --> 01:50:47,759
Speaker 10: It, Yes, that would be that time period.

2055
01:50:48,320 --> 01:50:51,479
Speaker 9: Yeah, that was a pretty big time. I was in

2056
01:50:52,280 --> 01:50:55,599
Speaker 9: Tijuana a lot at that time with seeing a migrant caravan.

2057
01:50:55,640 --> 01:50:58,840
Speaker 9: Folks were interviewing folks trying to help. Yeah, coming back

2058
01:50:58,840 --> 01:51:02,200
Speaker 9: to that was remember thinking, like what a fucked up world.

2059
01:51:02,560 --> 01:51:05,000
Speaker 9: So those people didn't get refugee emissions, right, those people

2060
01:51:05,280 --> 01:51:10,240
Speaker 9: were here seeking asylum. The system right now is suspended. Right,

2061
01:51:10,280 --> 01:51:13,080
Speaker 9: and as many as twelve thousand people who have been

2062
01:51:13,160 --> 01:51:17,160
Speaker 9: approved are waiting for travel authorization should come to the

2063
01:51:17,240 --> 01:51:17,920
Speaker 9: United States.

2064
01:51:17,920 --> 01:51:19,760
Speaker 2: So they're completely in limber.

2065
01:51:19,640 --> 01:51:22,519
Speaker 10: Right, You're in limbo and at great personal risk.

2066
01:51:23,120 --> 01:51:26,519
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, they're in I mean people spent twenty years

2067
01:51:26,560 --> 01:51:30,679
Speaker 9: in refugee camps waiting to be admitted to the United States.

2068
01:51:30,760 --> 01:51:34,559
Speaker 9: And like, it's hard for me to describe I tried

2069
01:51:34,600 --> 01:51:38,680
Speaker 9: to my Darien Gap series, Right, how desperately sad refugee

2070
01:51:38,760 --> 01:51:41,640
Speaker 9: camps are as places, right, And I think people think

2071
01:51:41,680 --> 01:51:43,200
Speaker 9: of refugee camps a's like, oh, you go there for

2072
01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:45,000
Speaker 9: a few weeks and you sleep under a big white ten.

2073
01:51:45,240 --> 01:51:46,960
Speaker 10: No children are born and raised there.

2074
01:51:47,240 --> 01:51:50,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, people live their whole lives in refugee camps. You know,

2075
01:51:50,880 --> 01:51:53,720
Speaker 9: they're the ones that they tibermesport have been there since

2076
01:51:53,720 --> 01:51:56,719
Speaker 9: the nineteen forties. But they live their whole lives, often

2077
01:51:56,760 --> 01:51:58,679
Speaker 9: without even basic essential services.

2078
01:51:58,760 --> 01:51:58,920
Speaker 2: Right.

2079
01:51:59,360 --> 01:52:01,400
Speaker 9: I did see for since highest had a little school

2080
01:52:01,720 --> 01:52:04,080
Speaker 9: in Lajas Blancas, which is one of these UN refugee

2081
01:52:04,080 --> 01:52:06,759
Speaker 9: camps in Panama. The recent they have a little school

2082
01:52:07,160 --> 01:52:09,880
Speaker 9: is because children spend so long there that they miss

2083
01:52:09,920 --> 01:52:12,880
Speaker 9: out on their education if they don't have a little

2084
01:52:12,920 --> 01:52:13,639
Speaker 9: school for them.

2085
01:52:13,720 --> 01:52:15,880
Speaker 10: And so that's just an insult to injury in this

2086
01:52:15,920 --> 01:52:18,439
Speaker 10: whole process, right. It's not only is he shutting off

2087
01:52:18,560 --> 01:52:23,000
Speaker 10: this avenue for refugee status for everyone else and giving

2088
01:52:23,000 --> 01:52:24,720
Speaker 10: it to these people who, you know, I think it's

2089
01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:27,679
Speaker 10: fair to say don't deserve it. Yeah, but he's made

2090
01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:30,240
Speaker 10: this process so simple and so easy and so painless,

2091
01:52:30,280 --> 01:52:33,000
Speaker 10: and that not only are they not fleeing persecution, but

2092
01:52:33,200 --> 01:52:35,360
Speaker 10: they're getting this fast tracked, this easy pass.

2093
01:52:35,680 --> 01:52:39,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, and like we're paying for it. I mean I

2094
01:52:39,320 --> 01:52:42,000
Speaker 9: remember recently some friends and I were helping someone who'd

2095
01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:45,400
Speaker 9: admitted to the US not as a refuge actually on

2096
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:49,920
Speaker 9: a different visa category. But like they were really having

2097
01:52:50,479 --> 01:52:54,200
Speaker 9: a hard time navigating the basics and funding that, so

2098
01:52:54,320 --> 01:52:55,559
Speaker 9: like we were able to help them out.

2099
01:52:55,920 --> 01:52:59,519
Speaker 10: I mean, obviously international immigration is a difficult process. It

2100
01:52:59,520 --> 01:53:02,880
Speaker 10: wouldn't be. I mean, you and you've immigrated internationally, right,

2101
01:53:02,880 --> 01:53:06,240
Speaker 10: It's not a simple process. No, But looking at the

2102
01:53:06,360 --> 01:53:08,519
Speaker 10: people who have taken Trump up on this offer of

2103
01:53:08,600 --> 01:53:12,280
Speaker 10: refugee resettlement. These appear to be people who could have

2104
01:53:12,520 --> 01:53:14,920
Speaker 10: simply immigrated had they chosen to.

2105
01:53:15,640 --> 01:53:17,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems that way. They could have just moved.

2106
01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:20,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, they could have I mean come here on like

2107
01:53:20,760 --> 01:53:23,479
Speaker 9: a B one visa or like, I mean, pathways to

2108
01:53:23,560 --> 01:53:27,280
Speaker 9: citizenship are relatively rare if you just like, say, you

2109
01:53:27,320 --> 01:53:29,280
Speaker 9: want to move to the US, right, like you just

2110
01:53:29,320 --> 01:53:31,599
Speaker 9: want to become an American unless you have a bunch

2111
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:34,680
Speaker 9: of money. So like, these guys will have a pathway citizenship.

2112
01:53:34,800 --> 01:53:37,760
Speaker 9: It's not quite clear how Trump said that they will

2113
01:53:37,760 --> 01:53:40,920
Speaker 9: have one. What does that mean. I know, normally, if

2114
01:53:40,920 --> 01:53:43,240
Speaker 9: you're omitted as a refugee, you can file for permanent

2115
01:53:43,280 --> 01:53:46,519
Speaker 9: residency in a year, and then after a number of years,

2116
01:53:46,520 --> 01:53:47,919
Speaker 9: you could file to be a citizen.

2117
01:53:48,320 --> 01:53:50,639
Speaker 10: I just noticed as we're talking, so you know, I'm

2118
01:53:50,640 --> 01:53:52,800
Speaker 10: not familiar with how the process normally works. Like that's

2119
01:53:53,040 --> 01:53:55,280
Speaker 10: that's your wheelhouse. That's something you're very familiar with. So

2120
01:53:55,280 --> 01:53:57,640
Speaker 10: maybe this is normal. It just looks strange to me.

2121
01:53:58,320 --> 01:53:59,880
Speaker 10: So I've been on vacation the last week, so I'm

2122
01:53:59,920 --> 01:54:03,080
Speaker 10: just back today. So I just opened up the embassy's

2123
01:54:03,080 --> 01:54:05,320
Speaker 10: website because you know, as I was writing this story

2124
01:54:05,360 --> 01:54:07,840
Speaker 10: and sort of tracking this as it developed, there wasn't

2125
01:54:07,840 --> 01:54:10,880
Speaker 10: good guidance from the Consulate on what this process would

2126
01:54:10,920 --> 01:54:12,960
Speaker 10: look like. So I'm just looking at it again today

2127
01:54:13,080 --> 01:54:15,280
Speaker 10: and they have updated it as of yesterday. This is

2128
01:54:15,320 --> 01:54:19,040
Speaker 10: the US Embassy and Consulate in South Africa. New update yesterday.

2129
01:54:19,080 --> 01:54:22,000
Speaker 10: There is a form you can fill out, James.

2130
01:54:22,040 --> 01:54:22,800
Speaker 2: It's a Google doc.

2131
01:54:23,600 --> 01:54:28,040
Speaker 10: It is a Google form. The US Embassy website has

2132
01:54:28,040 --> 01:54:29,920
Speaker 10: a link to a Google form that you can fill

2133
01:54:29,920 --> 01:54:32,880
Speaker 10: out if you want to become great.

2134
01:54:33,120 --> 01:54:34,440
Speaker 2: I'm sure that's highly secure.

2135
01:54:34,760 --> 01:54:38,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, well it's funny. I was on that website

2136
01:54:38,760 --> 01:54:43,560
Speaker 9: early today as well. That is oh dear, that is sad.

2137
01:54:45,240 --> 01:54:48,400
Speaker 9: I mean, yeah, I don't think a Google doc can

2138
01:54:48,440 --> 01:54:50,320
Speaker 9: possibly be as secure as it would need to be

2139
01:54:50,520 --> 01:54:53,200
Speaker 9: to have the amount of information the government gets on

2140
01:54:53,240 --> 01:54:55,200
Speaker 9: you when you become a refuge is all the information?

2141
01:54:55,560 --> 01:54:55,760
Speaker 3: Right?

2142
01:54:56,720 --> 01:55:00,280
Speaker 9: Just to outline the criteria to be eligible for US

2143
01:55:00,280 --> 01:55:04,240
Speaker 9: resettlement consideration, individuals must meet the following criteria. They must

2144
01:55:04,280 --> 01:55:08,560
Speaker 9: be of South African nationality and must be of African

2145
01:55:08,800 --> 01:55:12,040
Speaker 9: ethnicity or be a member of a racial minority in

2146
01:55:12,080 --> 01:55:12,680
Speaker 9: South Africa.

2147
01:55:12,800 --> 01:55:13,880
Speaker 10: I thought it wasn't about race.

2148
01:55:14,520 --> 01:55:16,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought it was.

2149
01:55:17,040 --> 01:55:18,080
Speaker 10: I thought it wasn't about race.

2150
01:55:17,960 --> 01:55:20,160
Speaker 2: James, Yeah, right, it seems.

2151
01:55:20,640 --> 01:55:22,560
Speaker 9: And then they must be able to articulate a past

2152
01:55:22,600 --> 01:55:26,680
Speaker 9: experience of persecution or fear of future persecution. What they

2153
01:55:26,920 --> 01:55:29,920
Speaker 9: don't mention here is that, like normally, there are protected

2154
01:55:29,960 --> 01:55:32,880
Speaker 9: categories into which refugees and asylum seekers have to fit. Right,

2155
01:55:32,960 --> 01:55:36,840
Speaker 9: there's a race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group,

2156
01:55:36,920 --> 01:55:39,480
Speaker 9: or political opinion. I mean, I guess, I guess you

2157
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:43,280
Speaker 9: could argue that, like the Africanas are not per se

2158
01:55:43,320 --> 01:55:45,960
Speaker 9: a race, right like that, like there are there could be.

2159
01:55:46,640 --> 01:55:48,960
Speaker 9: It's conceivable that one could be white out of South

2160
01:55:49,000 --> 01:55:51,360
Speaker 9: African nationality but not be Africana.

2161
01:55:51,840 --> 01:55:53,680
Speaker 10: Oh very much, so, very much so. I mean there's

2162
01:55:53,680 --> 01:55:57,640
Speaker 10: a African is a very specific sort of genealogical lineage.

2163
01:55:58,040 --> 01:56:00,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like which is W's.

2164
01:56:01,360 --> 01:56:03,280
Speaker 10: Which is why I think they have been careful here

2165
01:56:03,320 --> 01:56:05,320
Speaker 10: to say or a member of a racial minority, because

2166
01:56:05,320 --> 01:56:07,120
Speaker 10: they're saying, like, look, we're not going to do the genealogy.

2167
01:56:07,240 --> 01:56:10,000
Speaker 10: We don't care if your great grandfather was Dutch. We

2168
01:56:10,160 --> 01:56:11,440
Speaker 10: just need you to be white. We just need you

2169
01:56:11,440 --> 01:56:11,880
Speaker 10: to be white.

2170
01:56:11,960 --> 01:56:13,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, when you arrive, you can do a twenty three

2171
01:56:13,880 --> 01:56:16,680
Speaker 9: and meter test and then they do your percentage and

2172
01:56:16,720 --> 01:56:18,080
Speaker 9: you know, then they put you back on the plane.

2173
01:56:18,120 --> 01:56:20,120
Speaker 10: No, they just got the pantone color scale. They're just

2174
01:56:20,160 --> 01:56:22,200
Speaker 10: going to hold up the page colored paint chip.

2175
01:56:22,840 --> 01:56:26,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, they get you at what they called fucking the

2176
01:56:26,760 --> 01:56:28,320
Speaker 9: paint shop there where you go in and they mix

2177
01:56:28,360 --> 01:56:31,440
Speaker 9: it for you. So yeah, they didn't mention these protected

2178
01:56:31,480 --> 01:56:34,520
Speaker 9: categories here. The US State Department of Set has received

2179
01:56:34,600 --> 01:56:38,760
Speaker 9: eight thousand inquiries from people seeking information about the refue program.

2180
01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:41,320
Speaker 9: And that's a lot of people. That is a large

2181
01:56:41,400 --> 01:56:56,080
Speaker 9: number of people. The Episcopal Church here in the United

2182
01:56:56,120 --> 01:57:00,880
Speaker 9: States right like a notably woke organization, I would say Episcopal.

2183
01:57:01,320 --> 01:57:04,320
Speaker 9: I mean they do good Episcopal migration ministries do good work.

2184
01:57:04,560 --> 01:57:07,240
Speaker 9: You won't find me shaped talking. They do good things

2185
01:57:07,280 --> 01:57:10,280
Speaker 9: for people who need help. It has ended its partnership

2186
01:57:10,280 --> 01:57:12,480
Speaker 9: with the United States government. So I'm going to read

2187
01:57:12,480 --> 01:57:16,040
Speaker 9: a little bit here from Presiding Bishop Sean wrote the

2188
01:57:16,160 --> 01:57:18,320
Speaker 9: first time for me quoting a bishop on the podcast.

2189
01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:22,560
Speaker 9: Since January, the previously biparts in US refuge admissions program

2190
01:57:22,560 --> 01:57:26,280
Speaker 9: in which we participate has essentially shut down. Virtually no

2191
01:57:26,400 --> 01:57:29,600
Speaker 9: new refugees have arrived, Hundreds of staff and resettlement agencies

2192
01:57:29,600 --> 01:57:31,840
Speaker 9: around the country have been laid off, and funding for

2193
01:57:31,880 --> 01:57:35,360
Speaker 9: resettling refugees who have already arrived has been uncertain. Then,

2194
01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:38,400
Speaker 9: just over two weeks ago, the federal government informed episcocal

2195
01:57:38,480 --> 01:57:41,960
Speaker 9: migration ministries, under the terms of our federal grant, we're

2196
01:57:42,000 --> 01:57:45,640
Speaker 9: expected to resettle white Africanas from South Africa, whom the

2197
01:57:45,720 --> 01:57:48,720
Speaker 9: US government has classified as refugees. In light of our

2198
01:57:48,800 --> 01:57:52,160
Speaker 9: churches steadfast commitment to racial justice and reconciliation and our

2199
01:57:52,240 --> 01:57:55,280
Speaker 9: historic ties was the Anglican Church of South Africa, we're

2200
01:57:55,280 --> 01:57:58,080
Speaker 9: not able to take this step. Accordingly, we have determined

2201
01:57:58,080 --> 01:58:00,040
Speaker 9: that by the end of the federal fiscal year we

2202
01:58:00,040 --> 01:58:02,800
Speaker 9: will conclude our refugee resettlement grand agreements with the US

2203
01:58:02,880 --> 01:58:06,959
Speaker 9: federal government, skipping a bit. Then, it has been painful

2204
01:58:07,000 --> 01:58:09,880
Speaker 9: to watch one group of refugees, selected in a highly

2205
01:58:10,000 --> 01:58:13,280
Speaker 9: unusual manner, receive preferential treatment over many others who have

2206
01:58:13,360 --> 01:58:16,040
Speaker 9: been waiting in refugee camps or dangerous conditions for years.

2207
01:58:16,760 --> 01:58:19,160
Speaker 9: I am saddened and ashamed that many other refugees who

2208
01:58:19,160 --> 01:58:21,360
Speaker 9: are being denied entry to the United States have brave

2209
01:58:21,400 --> 01:58:24,320
Speaker 9: people who worked alongside our military in Iraq and Afghanistan

2210
01:58:24,680 --> 01:58:26,600
Speaker 9: and now faced danger at home because it has service

2211
01:58:26,640 --> 01:58:30,120
Speaker 9: to our country. They also grieve that victims of religious persecution,

2212
01:58:30,200 --> 01:58:33,360
Speaker 9: including Christians, have not been granted refuge in recent months.

2213
01:58:33,880 --> 01:58:35,720
Speaker 10: Good for them, honestly.

2214
01:58:35,480 --> 01:58:37,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like because I think, I mean think maybe people.

2215
01:58:37,440 --> 01:58:40,080
Speaker 10: Don't think about this or don't realize that a lot

2216
01:58:40,120 --> 01:58:42,960
Speaker 10: of these programs like this is a federally grant funded

2217
01:58:43,400 --> 01:58:46,800
Speaker 10: federal program through a partnership with the Episcopal Church. Like

2218
01:58:47,000 --> 01:58:48,640
Speaker 10: you know, in the early days of DOGE, you know,

2219
01:58:48,680 --> 01:58:50,920
Speaker 10: they were saying like, oh, we found all this wasteful spending,

2220
01:58:50,920 --> 01:58:53,920
Speaker 10: all this you know, suspicious payments to these religious organizations.

2221
01:58:54,280 --> 01:58:57,160
Speaker 10: Those are social programs we have outsourced. We have outsourced

2222
01:58:57,160 --> 01:59:00,160
Speaker 10: all of these government functions to these church based social programs.

2223
01:59:00,440 --> 01:59:01,960
Speaker 10: You know, for better or worse. Say about that what

2224
01:59:02,040 --> 01:59:04,000
Speaker 10: you will, but that is in fact how many of

2225
01:59:04,000 --> 01:59:04,800
Speaker 10: these things function.

2226
01:59:05,560 --> 01:59:05,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2227
01:59:06,000 --> 01:59:08,600
Speaker 9: Like when I think about, like, you know, I've spent

2228
01:59:08,640 --> 01:59:10,240
Speaker 9: a decent amount of time in refuge camps.

2229
01:59:10,360 --> 01:59:12,280
Speaker 2: The majority of the services that.

2230
01:59:12,360 --> 01:59:16,879
Speaker 9: Are provided by faith paped programs. Highest there's Bethtal World Ministries.

2231
01:59:16,920 --> 01:59:23,000
Speaker 9: I think it's called Catholic charities. It'sian migration ministries, there's

2232
01:59:23,520 --> 01:59:25,520
Speaker 9: caulca Aid, the Sikh Group, right, I don't think they

2233
01:59:25,600 --> 01:59:28,560
Speaker 9: receive any federal Maybe I don't think they receive federal funding.

2234
01:59:28,840 --> 01:59:31,760
Speaker 10: But I think for the Episcopal Church as a massive

2235
01:59:31,960 --> 01:59:34,880
Speaker 10: organization to come out and say, yeah, we won't dirty

2236
01:59:34,880 --> 01:59:37,000
Speaker 10: our hands with this, that's incredible.

2237
01:59:37,200 --> 01:59:41,080
Speaker 9: No, it's great, and like more organizations should. I think

2238
01:59:41,080 --> 01:59:44,560
Speaker 9: they're being resettled in Virginia for the most part.

2239
01:59:44,600 --> 01:59:45,800
Speaker 10: Good, that's where I live.

2240
01:59:45,880 --> 01:59:49,120
Speaker 9: James, Oh good, yeah, great, Well you know you could

2241
01:59:49,120 --> 01:59:51,640
Speaker 9: take one in, Molly. You could have a little African

2242
01:59:51,760 --> 01:59:53,800
Speaker 9: to come live with you, like a god.

2243
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:56,840
Speaker 10: So Charlottesville where I live, Oh, you'll get some. It's

2244
01:59:56,880 --> 02:00:01,440
Speaker 10: home to a large number of Afghan refugee family. It's like,

2245
02:00:01,480 --> 02:00:04,280
Speaker 10: I know people who work with our new Afghan neighbors

2246
02:00:04,280 --> 02:00:06,280
Speaker 10: and like helping them get settled in our community and

2247
02:00:06,280 --> 02:00:09,240
Speaker 10: helping women get driver's license and get them sewing machines

2248
02:00:09,240 --> 02:00:11,200
Speaker 10: so they can sew their traditional garments at home, and

2249
02:00:11,240 --> 02:00:15,240
Speaker 10: like it's a beautiful community effort to welcome these people

2250
02:00:15,280 --> 02:00:17,880
Speaker 10: into our town. But I just can't I just can't

2251
02:00:17,920 --> 02:00:21,080
Speaker 10: imagine the worst people on Earth coming here.

2252
02:00:21,840 --> 02:00:24,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, well you can help with sewing machine rent you

2253
02:00:24,160 --> 02:00:28,440
Speaker 9: could help us sew up a little pre pre Rainbow

2254
02:00:28,480 --> 02:00:31,720
Speaker 9: Nation South Africa flag for them. But yeah, it is

2255
02:00:31,760 --> 02:00:35,160
Speaker 9: like I've helped people arriving here on refuge visas and

2256
02:00:35,200 --> 02:00:38,120
Speaker 9: like it's actually a really really affirming and wonderful thing

2257
02:00:38,160 --> 02:00:41,000
Speaker 9: to do in your community, and like now it's a

2258
02:00:41,040 --> 02:00:43,040
Speaker 9: time when you can still do that. All the people

2259
02:00:43,080 --> 02:00:48,120
Speaker 9: who were resettled here before January, the funding that was

2260
02:00:48,120 --> 02:00:50,120
Speaker 9: supposed to help their kids enroll in school, that were

2261
02:00:50,120 --> 02:00:52,800
Speaker 9: supposed to help especially women learn to drive right, that

2262
02:00:52,880 --> 02:00:56,000
Speaker 9: were supposed to help people orient themselves in the US,

2263
02:00:56,120 --> 02:01:00,000
Speaker 9: find education, find work right. As a person who moved

2264
02:01:00,120 --> 02:01:02,640
Speaker 9: to America, it is a very confusing place. You have

2265
02:01:02,760 --> 02:01:05,600
Speaker 9: like seventy five different layers of government, none of them

2266
02:01:05,680 --> 02:01:06,840
Speaker 9: really want to help you.

2267
02:01:07,560 --> 02:01:09,560
Speaker 2: That says a lot of forms to fill in.

2268
02:01:10,000 --> 02:01:14,480
Speaker 9: The rent is insane, right, and then you add people

2269
02:01:14,560 --> 02:01:16,560
Speaker 9: drive like fucking maniacs, so.

2270
02:01:16,480 --> 02:01:19,440
Speaker 10: Like and we don't have healthcarerier James, I'm sure that

2271
02:01:19,520 --> 02:01:21,520
Speaker 10: was a culture shock for you. But like so when

2272
02:01:21,520 --> 02:01:23,960
Speaker 10: I was poking around in some of these Facebook groups

2273
02:01:24,000 --> 02:01:25,680
Speaker 10: for these for the South Africans who are sort of

2274
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:29,360
Speaker 10: interested in maybe seeking this opportunity, and they were talking

2275
02:01:29,400 --> 02:01:31,400
Speaker 10: about sort of the pros and cons and whether they

2276
02:01:31,400 --> 02:01:33,360
Speaker 10: would go and how is the PROW process was going

2277
02:01:33,400 --> 02:01:35,680
Speaker 10: to work. And the one fear that I saw come

2278
02:01:35,760 --> 02:01:38,320
Speaker 10: up over and over again is like, well I heard

2279
02:01:38,320 --> 02:01:42,680
Speaker 10: the healthcare is pretty bad. There is, Yeah, dude, it is.

2280
02:01:42,800 --> 02:01:44,840
Speaker 2: Damn yeah, damn don't come.

2281
02:01:45,840 --> 02:01:48,720
Speaker 9: Yeah yeah in some states, right, there are state funded

2282
02:01:48,800 --> 02:01:51,520
Speaker 9: like safety net programs. I don't know about Virginia.

2283
02:01:51,680 --> 02:01:54,880
Speaker 10: And I'm sure I'm sure as as America's special and

2284
02:01:54,960 --> 02:01:57,520
Speaker 10: only refugees, they will be afforded access to to all

2285
02:01:57,560 --> 02:01:58,520
Speaker 10: available programs.

2286
02:01:59,120 --> 02:01:59,320
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2287
02:01:59,400 --> 02:02:01,960
Speaker 9: Put them on try care after we've kicked the transfolks off.

2288
02:02:02,080 --> 02:02:03,520
Speaker 9: That's how they're making up for the gap.

2289
02:02:04,240 --> 02:02:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty bleak.

2290
02:02:05,640 --> 02:02:08,640
Speaker 9: Honestly, I would really encourage folks like give you are

2291
02:02:08,680 --> 02:02:10,560
Speaker 9: listening to this and thinking, oh, it fucking sucks. So

2292
02:02:10,600 --> 02:02:14,200
Speaker 9: those people have not been granted refugee status. I'm thinking

2293
02:02:14,280 --> 02:02:17,640
Speaker 9: of Like I met a woman from Zimbabwe when I

2294
02:02:17,680 --> 02:02:20,520
Speaker 9: was in Darian Gap who had come with her daughter. Right,

2295
02:02:20,680 --> 02:02:24,800
Speaker 9: she had faced persecution at home in Zimbabwe, a country

2296
02:02:24,800 --> 02:02:26,080
Speaker 9: that is not Rhodesia anymore.

2297
02:02:26,240 --> 02:02:27,360
Speaker 2: We're keeping score in.

2298
02:02:27,320 --> 02:02:30,480
Speaker 10: A country that was never Rhodesia. Rhodesia never existed.

2299
02:02:30,360 --> 02:02:34,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, right, Yeah, she went to South Africa right to

2300
02:02:34,960 --> 02:02:38,560
Speaker 9: attempt to be safe, and persecution followed her that. So

2301
02:02:38,640 --> 02:02:41,440
Speaker 9: then she took this journey all across the America's carrying

2302
02:02:41,440 --> 02:02:44,280
Speaker 9: her kid through through the jungles and over the mountains

2303
02:02:44,280 --> 02:02:46,600
Speaker 9: and through the rivers. And that's where I met them,

2304
02:02:46,880 --> 02:02:48,680
Speaker 9: and we've stayed in touch.

2305
02:02:48,760 --> 02:02:48,920
Speaker 2: Right.

2306
02:02:48,960 --> 02:02:52,000
Speaker 9: She's in the United States now, she's working on her

2307
02:02:52,040 --> 02:02:56,320
Speaker 9: asylum process, and it is expensive and it is by

2308
02:02:56,560 --> 02:03:00,240
Speaker 9: no means secure. And this is like a woman who

2309
02:03:00,240 --> 02:03:04,520
Speaker 9: has faced who fits multiple categories right in the protected

2310
02:03:04,960 --> 02:03:08,240
Speaker 9: they've protected categories here, right, It's going to be very

2311
02:03:08,240 --> 02:03:10,520
Speaker 9: hard and very expensive for her. And it really genuinely

2312
02:03:10,880 --> 02:03:13,800
Speaker 9: fucking breaks my heart to see someone who like would

2313
02:03:13,840 --> 02:03:17,480
Speaker 9: be such an asset to any community, who was such

2314
02:03:17,520 --> 02:03:20,680
Speaker 9: a ray of light even in some of the hardest

2315
02:03:20,680 --> 02:03:22,960
Speaker 9: places I've ever been. She might not get to stay

2316
02:03:23,000 --> 02:03:28,360
Speaker 9: here and these folks will and that really makes me sad.

2317
02:03:28,560 --> 02:03:30,560
Speaker 9: But yeah, if you have a chance in your community,

2318
02:03:30,640 --> 02:03:34,960
Speaker 9: Like almost the way I sometimes find out about refugees

2319
02:03:35,040 --> 02:03:37,360
Speaker 9: arriving or being settled is like on next door and

2320
02:03:37,400 --> 02:03:39,560
Speaker 9: realists next door is mostly a site for aging racist

2321
02:03:40,000 --> 02:03:42,040
Speaker 9: but like, sometimes people will be like, hey, there's an

2322
02:03:42,040 --> 02:03:44,600
Speaker 9: Afghan family here and they don't. Like one of the

2323
02:03:44,640 --> 02:03:46,920
Speaker 9: things in California is that you can rent a house

2324
02:03:46,960 --> 02:03:49,640
Speaker 9: and they don't have to give you a fridge. Yeah,

2325
02:03:49,800 --> 02:03:51,720
Speaker 9: a fridge is like a luxury, it's not it's not

2326
02:03:51,760 --> 02:03:54,800
Speaker 9: for the pause. So like trying to help people find

2327
02:03:54,800 --> 02:03:58,720
Speaker 9: a fridge before Ramadan, right, Like I have a truck,

2328
02:03:59,400 --> 02:04:01,320
Speaker 9: a bigger I can lift a fridge into the back

2329
02:04:01,360 --> 02:04:03,160
Speaker 9: of my truck. If someone has a fridge they don't want,

2330
02:04:03,240 --> 02:04:04,720
Speaker 9: so like, that's the thing I can do to help,

2331
02:04:04,760 --> 02:04:06,920
Speaker 9: and it makes me happy to do that. Then I

2332
02:04:06,920 --> 02:04:09,840
Speaker 9: can carry a fridge upstairs. Like that's not something you

2333
02:04:09,840 --> 02:04:12,080
Speaker 9: can do. There are a million other things you can do, right,

2334
02:04:12,400 --> 02:04:15,480
Speaker 9: including just like having people over for dinner, cooking food

2335
02:04:15,520 --> 02:04:19,040
Speaker 9: for them, offering to take them out on a walk

2336
02:04:19,080 --> 02:04:22,040
Speaker 9: and show them your neighborhood. Like there are so many

2337
02:04:22,080 --> 02:04:24,600
Speaker 9: ways that you can welcome people. And like, while people

2338
02:04:24,680 --> 02:04:27,520
Speaker 9: aren't newly arriving, there are people who are still recently

2339
02:04:27,600 --> 02:04:30,200
Speaker 9: arrived who really could do with some help. The government

2340
02:04:30,240 --> 02:04:32,600
Speaker 9: isn't paying for any more. We can't stop the government

2341
02:04:32,640 --> 02:04:36,280
Speaker 9: paying for flights for Africanas. But like you can do something,

2342
02:04:37,400 --> 02:04:40,400
Speaker 9: you can do something positive and will maybe make you

2343
02:04:40,440 --> 02:04:43,080
Speaker 9: feel better about the fact that you know, your taxpayer

2344
02:04:43,120 --> 02:04:49,080
Speaker 9: dollars are bringing the poor, downtrodden Africanas from South Africa

2345
02:04:49,440 --> 02:04:51,280
Speaker 9: to neighborhoods near Molly.

2346
02:04:51,920 --> 02:04:54,440
Speaker 10: And it's just such an ugly intersection, right, this is

2347
02:04:54,480 --> 02:04:59,000
Speaker 10: not just like our adult brained president falling victim to

2348
02:04:59,120 --> 02:05:01,640
Speaker 10: a racist conspiracy that he saw on Tucker Carlson, right,

2349
02:05:01,720 --> 02:05:04,480
Speaker 10: like that that's how the idea got into his mind.

2350
02:05:04,600 --> 02:05:08,280
Speaker 10: But I think this resurgence of his alleged interest in

2351
02:05:08,320 --> 02:05:11,160
Speaker 10: the plight of the white South African is this terrible

2352
02:05:11,200 --> 02:05:16,800
Speaker 10: intersection of personal grievance and financial interest, right that. You know,

2353
02:05:16,840 --> 02:05:20,000
Speaker 10: it's no coincidence that the text of the executive Order

2354
02:05:20,560 --> 02:05:23,280
Speaker 10: is not just about like you know, whites are being persecuted.

2355
02:05:23,560 --> 02:05:24,360
Speaker 7: But there is a.

2356
02:05:24,600 --> 02:05:27,480
Speaker 10: Hot shot on the side in the first section of

2357
02:05:27,520 --> 02:05:30,520
Speaker 10: the executive Order that, like well, and South Africa has

2358
02:05:30,520 --> 02:05:34,560
Speaker 10: been very unfair to Israel. Right that South Africa being

2359
02:05:34,600 --> 02:05:37,680
Speaker 10: a leading voice in the international community on the genocide

2360
02:05:37,680 --> 02:05:41,120
Speaker 10: in Gaza is part of this. That the inded they

2361
02:05:41,160 --> 02:05:44,160
Speaker 10: need to be punished for their advocacy against the genocide.

2362
02:05:44,680 --> 02:05:48,600
Speaker 10: When their ambassador was expelled. It was not a coincidence

2363
02:05:48,800 --> 02:05:51,440
Speaker 10: that he is a Muslim South African who has been

2364
02:05:51,560 --> 02:05:53,600
Speaker 10: very vocal about the genocide in Gaza, and that he

2365
02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:55,720
Speaker 10: appears in public in a kufia that he's when he

2366
02:05:55,800 --> 02:05:58,240
Speaker 10: was when he returned to South Africa after being expelled

2367
02:05:58,240 --> 02:06:01,800
Speaker 10: from the United States. He was talking about Palestine when

2368
02:06:01,800 --> 02:06:03,760
Speaker 10: he got home, and that's not a coincidence. And it's

2369
02:06:03,760 --> 02:06:08,000
Speaker 10: also not a coincidence that Elon Musk is currently fighting

2370
02:06:08,080 --> 02:06:12,000
Speaker 10: to launch Starlink in South Africa. Yeah, so this is

2371
02:06:12,040 --> 02:06:14,120
Speaker 10: sort of a longer explanation which is just sort of

2372
02:06:14,160 --> 02:06:17,400
Speaker 10: in brief. Since apartheid ended in nineteen ninety four, they

2373
02:06:17,440 --> 02:06:20,920
Speaker 10: have racial equality laws that if you have a national

2374
02:06:21,000 --> 02:06:23,640
Speaker 10: level company, something like starlink something you're going to provide

2375
02:06:23,640 --> 02:06:27,600
Speaker 10: a national telecommunications contract that serves the whole country, there

2376
02:06:27,600 --> 02:06:29,960
Speaker 10: has to be some black ownership of the country. They're

2377
02:06:29,960 --> 02:06:32,320
Speaker 10: not saying that there can be no white executives. They're

2378
02:06:32,360 --> 02:06:34,400
Speaker 10: not saying, you know, white people aren't allowed to do business,

2379
02:06:34,960 --> 02:06:36,960
Speaker 10: but there has to be some black ownership stake in

2380
02:06:37,000 --> 02:06:41,800
Speaker 10: the company. And large corporations around the world manage this

2381
02:06:41,960 --> 02:06:45,760
Speaker 10: by establishing a local subsidiary that is owned locally by

2382
02:06:45,800 --> 02:06:49,800
Speaker 10: a majority of black shareholders. Microsoft does it, like every

2383
02:06:49,840 --> 02:06:53,400
Speaker 10: big company does it. Companies operate in South Africa. International

2384
02:06:53,440 --> 02:06:55,360
Speaker 10: corporations operate in South Africa, and they do it every

2385
02:06:55,440 --> 02:06:57,920
Speaker 10: day and they do it easily. But Elon Musk refuses

2386
02:06:57,960 --> 02:07:00,640
Speaker 10: to do that. He refuses to have any black ownership

2387
02:07:00,680 --> 02:07:03,360
Speaker 10: stake in his company or a local subsidiary. So he's

2388
02:07:03,400 --> 02:07:05,640
Speaker 10: not allowed to have starlink there. Yeah, and so over

2389
02:07:05,680 --> 02:07:07,760
Speaker 10: the last couple of months, he's been, you know, walking

2390
02:07:07,760 --> 02:07:10,280
Speaker 10: out of meetings, he's been, you know, yelling at the

2391
02:07:10,280 --> 02:07:13,240
Speaker 10: President of South Africa about how he's racist against white

2392
02:07:13,240 --> 02:07:16,280
Speaker 10: people and so like this is personal, it's financial, and

2393
02:07:16,320 --> 02:07:19,120
Speaker 10: it is a racist conspiracy theory and now we're all

2394
02:07:19,120 --> 02:07:19,720
Speaker 10: having to live it.

2395
02:07:19,960 --> 02:07:22,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's also not a coincidence. So like Musk has

2396
02:07:22,240 --> 02:07:25,800
Speaker 9: started interacting with some of these like white farmer accounts

2397
02:07:26,480 --> 02:07:27,840
Speaker 9: on his racism ap right.

2398
02:07:28,160 --> 02:07:28,760
Speaker 2: I think that one.

2399
02:07:28,840 --> 02:07:31,040
Speaker 9: I think it's an maybe its screen name is just

2400
02:07:31,160 --> 02:07:33,800
Speaker 9: bore or it's oh yes, a.

2401
02:07:33,760 --> 02:07:37,640
Speaker 10: South African news site recently unmasked that particular individual.

2402
02:07:37,720 --> 02:07:38,160
Speaker 2: Oh cool.

2403
02:07:38,280 --> 02:07:40,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, I haven't read the article yet, Like I said,

2404
02:07:40,000 --> 02:07:42,200
Speaker 10: I've been on vacation, but they're they're on the case.

2405
02:07:42,320 --> 02:07:44,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, great, good, And I think about these.

2406
02:07:44,480 --> 02:07:48,320
Speaker 10: You know, white identity South African nationalist kinds of guys.

2407
02:07:48,480 --> 02:07:52,040
Speaker 10: Is apartheid wasn't that long ago? Yeah, thirty years ago? Right,

2408
02:07:52,080 --> 02:07:55,960
Speaker 10: So anybody god fifty year older who's talking a lot

2409
02:07:56,000 --> 02:07:58,400
Speaker 10: about white identity in South Africa, I would just like

2410
02:07:58,440 --> 02:08:00,680
Speaker 10: to ask you, what were you doing in nineteen ninety Yeah,

2411
02:08:00,960 --> 02:08:02,040
Speaker 10: just tell me who you were hanging out with the

2412
02:08:02,120 --> 02:08:03,560
Speaker 10: nineteen ninety because I have questions.

2413
02:08:03,920 --> 02:08:06,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like I remember the end of apartheid very like,

2414
02:08:06,440 --> 02:08:09,880
Speaker 9: that's one of my earlier political memories. I remember, like

2415
02:08:09,960 --> 02:08:12,480
Speaker 9: Nelson Mandela coming out at the Rugby World Cup in

2416
02:08:12,560 --> 02:08:16,160
Speaker 9: nineteen ninety five, like that being a big people like

2417
02:08:16,320 --> 02:08:18,280
Speaker 9: I guess maybe our listeners a lot of our listeners

2418
02:08:18,320 --> 02:08:20,640
Speaker 9: are younger than me. But like, South Africa was something

2419
02:08:20,680 --> 02:08:24,040
Speaker 9: of a pariah state under apartheid, right, Like they couldn't

2420
02:08:24,080 --> 02:08:26,720
Speaker 9: people wouldn't even play sports with them. They didn't even

2421
02:08:26,760 --> 02:08:28,800
Speaker 9: go to the IOC Olympic Games. And the IOC not

2422
02:08:29,360 --> 02:08:33,800
Speaker 9: an anti racist organization, an organization which famously sent the

2423
02:08:33,840 --> 02:08:37,760
Speaker 9: Olympic Games to add off Hitler's Germany. But yeah, they

2424
02:08:37,760 --> 02:08:41,240
Speaker 9: were a complete global pariah. And to have gone from

2425
02:08:41,360 --> 02:08:44,920
Speaker 9: that to like the US has to intervene in the

2426
02:08:44,920 --> 02:08:47,320
Speaker 9: plight that persecuted Africana within my lifetime.

2427
02:08:47,360 --> 02:08:48,480
Speaker 2: It's a pretty fucking bleak.

2428
02:08:48,920 --> 02:08:51,640
Speaker 10: It is a quick turnaround and an ugly one. But

2429
02:08:52,520 --> 02:08:55,080
Speaker 10: like I said, the average white South African who is

2430
02:08:55,160 --> 02:08:59,200
Speaker 10: very vocal about white rights may have a very close

2431
02:08:59,320 --> 02:09:02,320
Speaker 10: connection to a very recent act of terrorism, if you

2432
02:09:02,320 --> 02:09:02,960
Speaker 10: know what I'm saying.

2433
02:09:03,040 --> 02:09:05,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, they're not just talk.

2434
02:09:05,640 --> 02:09:07,640
Speaker 10: It was very violent in the early nineties.

2435
02:09:08,200 --> 02:09:10,880
Speaker 9: Yes, yeah, Molly's done some good stuff on the yeah,

2436
02:09:11,280 --> 02:09:15,920
Speaker 9: and on the violence of white South Africans. And I guess, yeah,

2437
02:09:15,960 --> 02:09:19,240
Speaker 9: what folks in the US who are inspired by them? Molly,

2438
02:09:19,320 --> 02:09:23,200
Speaker 9: do you have anything you want to plug? Otherwords, kuntu

2439
02:09:23,280 --> 02:09:24,840
Speaker 9: Wei's way, I guess is what you want to plug?

2440
02:09:24,920 --> 02:09:27,840
Speaker 10: Right, Yeah, I mean I'm keeping an eye on their

2441
02:09:27,880 --> 02:09:31,320
Speaker 10: treeson Case against Affro Forum. I think that's I mean,

2442
02:09:31,320 --> 02:09:32,800
Speaker 10: it's just political talk, but it's fun.

2443
02:09:32,840 --> 02:09:33,200
Speaker 7: We'll see.

2444
02:09:33,240 --> 02:09:35,960
Speaker 10: Apparently the investigation is ongoing. But no, if you are

2445
02:09:35,960 --> 02:09:39,600
Speaker 10: interested in more about how this happened, I did an

2446
02:09:39,640 --> 02:09:42,760
Speaker 10: eight part series about political violence at the end of

2447
02:09:42,760 --> 02:09:46,120
Speaker 10: apartheid and its connections to American neo Nazis. You can

2448
02:09:46,200 --> 02:09:48,600
Speaker 10: check that out on Weirdle guys, it's a good time.

2449
02:09:48,680 --> 02:09:51,800
Speaker 10: I think there's a really fun episode about Adulf Lunngren

2450
02:09:51,840 --> 02:09:54,480
Speaker 10: movie from the late eighties. It was secretly fun to

2451
02:09:54,560 --> 02:09:57,640
Speaker 10: my South African military intelligence. Yeah, it's a good time.

2452
02:09:57,760 --> 02:09:59,320
Speaker 10: And uh we live in hell.

2453
02:10:21,640 --> 02:10:25,000
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's it's it could happen here. It is,

2454
02:10:25,120 --> 02:10:29,200
Speaker 2: and it's talking about it happening here. You know about

2455
02:10:29,920 --> 02:10:32,960
Speaker 2: what we're you know, what's happening in a galaxy far

2456
02:10:33,000 --> 02:10:34,880
Speaker 2: far away. These are the and Or episodes we're talking

2457
02:10:34,880 --> 02:10:36,880
Speaker 2: about episodes Jesus, what is it?

2458
02:10:37,000 --> 02:10:38,720
Speaker 7: Seven through nine?

2459
02:10:38,760 --> 02:10:42,640
Speaker 2: Seven through nine of and Or Season two, when this

2460
02:10:42,720 --> 02:10:44,960
Speaker 2: is done, will be three quarters of the way over with.

2461
02:10:46,040 --> 02:10:48,560
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the best seasons of television ever made.

2462
02:10:48,840 --> 02:10:51,720
Speaker 2: So you know, savor it, folks, enjoy it, and enjoy

2463
02:10:51,800 --> 02:11:01,400
Speaker 2: these podcasts. Yeah, eloquent Garrison, thank you, thank you, arg

2464
02:11:01,520 --> 02:11:04,560
Speaker 2: Me Harties raised the Hondo Anaka flag.

2465
02:11:04,600 --> 02:11:08,640
Speaker 11: And let's watch some and Or. This is episode three

2466
02:11:08,760 --> 02:11:13,200
Speaker 11: of our Star Wars and Or Politics review podcast. The

2467
02:11:13,280 --> 02:11:16,440
Speaker 11: person grumbling in the intro is Robert Evans. I'm Garrison Davis.

2468
02:11:16,440 --> 02:11:20,600
Speaker 11: We are also joined by Mia Wong. Let's start with

2469
02:11:20,760 --> 02:11:24,840
Speaker 11: episode seven. I think this ark on General might be

2470
02:11:24,920 --> 02:11:27,880
Speaker 11: my favorite arc of the whole show. Frankly, they did

2471
02:11:27,920 --> 02:11:31,400
Speaker 11: some really fun stuff. Oh yeah, and seven's mostly set up.

2472
02:11:31,640 --> 02:11:35,440
Speaker 11: This is episode seven titled Messenger. I'll do a quick

2473
02:11:35,560 --> 02:11:37,839
Speaker 11: overview and then we can discuss some of the setup

2474
02:11:37,880 --> 02:11:42,840
Speaker 11: to the Gorman massacre. So rebel militias are forming an

2475
02:11:42,960 --> 02:11:47,280
Speaker 11: army on the fourth moon of Yavin. Willman returns from

2476
02:11:47,360 --> 02:11:51,360
Speaker 11: the planet Gorman with a special mission for Cassion Loosen

2477
02:11:51,520 --> 02:11:57,240
Speaker 11: Once isb agent Detra Miro assassinated to protect the Axis network.

2478
02:11:57,800 --> 02:12:00,480
Speaker 11: The Empires failed to secure an alternative live to the

2479
02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:04,360
Speaker 11: Gorman mineral calkite, and ISP command tells Dedra that an

2480
02:12:04,360 --> 02:12:06,880
Speaker 11: Imperial fleet will be sent to Gorman in two days

2481
02:12:07,440 --> 02:12:10,920
Speaker 11: and to prepare for a declaration of Marshall domain.

2482
02:12:11,640 --> 02:12:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to note at the start of this

2483
02:12:13,680 --> 02:12:15,760
Speaker 2: kind of what we see because we're watching one year

2484
02:12:15,840 --> 02:12:18,640
Speaker 2: jumps between these, this is the first time where it's

2485
02:12:18,640 --> 02:12:21,720
Speaker 2: been made really clear the rebellion has moved on from

2486
02:12:21,960 --> 02:12:25,920
Speaker 2: scattered insurgent groups to a functional army. Like when we're

2487
02:12:25,960 --> 02:12:29,480
Speaker 2: introduced to Yavin, there's a transport landing, a group of

2488
02:12:29,640 --> 02:12:32,720
Speaker 2: soldiers are getting off and they're being told like, okay,

2489
02:12:32,720 --> 02:12:35,040
Speaker 2: your ration cards are here. And like you need to

2490
02:12:35,080 --> 02:12:37,160
Speaker 2: report in here and here, this is where you're billeted.

2491
02:12:37,560 --> 02:12:42,040
Speaker 2: It's very like standard professional military stuff. So we are

2492
02:12:42,080 --> 02:12:45,360
Speaker 2: now at the point where the rebellion that Andor has

2493
02:12:45,400 --> 02:12:49,920
Speaker 2: been portraying previously is not around anymore. The rebellion has

2494
02:12:49,960 --> 02:12:53,040
Speaker 2: moved on largely, and those old networks still exist to

2495
02:12:53,080 --> 02:12:55,919
Speaker 2: some extent, but that is not the heart of it anymore.

2496
02:12:56,720 --> 02:12:58,600
Speaker 11: Yeah, and that's a big part of what this episode

2497
02:12:58,640 --> 02:13:02,040
Speaker 11: is starting to set up now on Gorman. Imperial presence

2498
02:13:02,040 --> 02:13:05,440
Speaker 11: on the planet has already increased dramatically in the past year.

2499
02:13:05,960 --> 02:13:08,640
Speaker 11: A new imperial headquarters the towers above the capital city

2500
02:13:08,640 --> 02:13:11,840
Speaker 11: of Palmo. Security forces are stationed throughout the city with

2501
02:13:11,960 --> 02:13:16,160
Speaker 11: checkpoints and a mandatory curfew. The past few weeks, there's

2502
02:13:16,200 --> 02:13:20,240
Speaker 11: been stories of insurgent attacks against the Empire, most recently

2503
02:13:20,280 --> 02:13:24,240
Speaker 11: the bombing of a naval depot. Imperial News reports that

2504
02:13:24,440 --> 02:13:27,000
Speaker 11: quote unquote inexplicable Gorman.

2505
02:13:26,800 --> 02:13:29,720
Speaker 2: Terrorists their hate for imperial norms.

2506
02:13:30,320 --> 02:13:35,000
Speaker 11: Are getting help from quote unquote outside agitators.

2507
02:13:34,200 --> 02:13:38,040
Speaker 2: Which is not untrue actually for once, but also not

2508
02:13:38,200 --> 02:13:40,880
Speaker 2: like the core of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and

2509
02:13:40,960 --> 02:13:43,000
Speaker 2: I think that that's part of the part of the

2510
02:13:43,040 --> 02:13:46,200
Speaker 2: point right like that. That's part of what Luthen's going

2511
02:13:46,280 --> 02:13:50,520
Speaker 2: for is he wants to keep them sort of obsessed

2512
02:13:50,560 --> 02:13:54,360
Speaker 2: with this side of things, in part because Luthan knows

2513
02:13:54,440 --> 02:13:57,440
Speaker 2: that it's moved on, right, Like, Luthen knows that the

2514
02:13:57,480 --> 02:14:00,520
Speaker 2: rebellion is in Yavin. Now you know he is. He's

2515
02:14:00,560 --> 02:14:03,520
Speaker 2: not entirely a side show, but he's no longer the

2516
02:14:03,600 --> 02:14:07,040
Speaker 2: heart of it. And yeah, every resource they waste looking

2517
02:14:07,120 --> 02:14:09,720
Speaker 2: at his network is a time they're not spent looking

2518
02:14:09,760 --> 02:14:10,320
Speaker 2: at Yavin.

2519
02:14:10,720 --> 02:14:12,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, and Luthan's still trying.

2520
02:14:12,320 --> 02:14:14,400
Speaker 11: I mean, like the outside agitators here is probably mostly

2521
02:14:14,480 --> 02:14:17,080
Speaker 11: like Luthen's guys who've been trying to build up the

2522
02:14:17,200 --> 02:14:21,120
Speaker 11: insurgency on Gorman simply to make some sort of political

2523
02:14:21,120 --> 02:14:23,840
Speaker 11: crisis and then you know, also help the people who

2524
02:14:23,840 --> 02:14:27,440
Speaker 11: have already committed to resisting the empire, help them actually

2525
02:14:27,480 --> 02:14:31,160
Speaker 11: like do that beyond what the Gorman Front's been like

2526
02:14:31,280 --> 02:14:33,960
Speaker 11: parading around and doing you know, little little protests in

2527
02:14:33,960 --> 02:14:37,440
Speaker 11: front of the memorial for the past few years. Luthen

2528
02:14:37,520 --> 02:14:39,160
Speaker 11: was like, if these guys want to do this seriously,

2529
02:14:39,240 --> 02:14:41,320
Speaker 11: let's let's see what happens when we do it seriously.

2530
02:14:41,680 --> 02:14:44,800
Speaker 11: And that's kind of what we've resulted to here. The

2531
02:14:44,800 --> 02:14:48,560
Speaker 11: Empire has sent a quote unquote crisis specialist and a

2532
02:14:48,680 --> 02:14:53,560
Speaker 11: riot team to assist de Dra in managing any civil unrest.

2533
02:14:54,560 --> 02:14:58,960
Speaker 11: Cyril Karn starts questioning what the Empire wants with Gorman

2534
02:14:58,960 --> 02:15:03,280
Speaker 11: and what he's really been doing Wing these past two years. Yeah,

2535
02:15:03,400 --> 02:15:06,400
Speaker 11: Dedra tells him to pack his things, as they'll soon

2536
02:15:06,600 --> 02:15:11,360
Speaker 11: be leaving together for Corroussant. Back on Yavin four, Bicks

2537
02:15:11,480 --> 02:15:15,080
Speaker 11: takes a skeptical Cassian to a Force healer to help

2538
02:15:15,120 --> 02:15:19,840
Speaker 11: with a stubborn blaster burn. Though Cassian resists, the healer

2539
02:15:20,000 --> 02:15:23,920
Speaker 11: can sense that Cassian is somehow important. He has main

2540
02:15:23,960 --> 02:15:28,640
Speaker 11: character energy. Cassian is split between Luthen and the growing

2541
02:15:28,880 --> 02:15:32,000
Speaker 11: organized rebellion Yeah, but decides to take a rebel U

2542
02:15:32,040 --> 02:15:36,680
Speaker 11: Wing Starfighter to Gorman and undercover as a journalist. Cassian

2543
02:15:36,800 --> 02:15:40,320
Speaker 11: checks into the hotel at Palmo Square and sets his

2544
02:15:40,440 --> 02:15:43,160
Speaker 11: sights on ISB Agent Dedra.

2545
02:15:43,680 --> 02:15:44,000
Speaker 2: M H.

2546
02:15:44,880 --> 02:15:48,000
Speaker 11: So, Yeah, a lot of this episode is like showing

2547
02:15:48,040 --> 02:15:51,360
Speaker 11: how the rebels are actually like growing an army before

2548
02:15:51,400 --> 02:15:55,120
Speaker 11: they've really put together the formal rebel alliance, like they're

2549
02:15:55,200 --> 02:15:57,960
Speaker 11: they're they're getting so much closer to that. But at

2550
02:15:57,960 --> 02:15:59,720
Speaker 11: this point it's it's like a whole bunch of little

2551
02:15:59,760 --> 02:16:02,920
Speaker 11: like militias that are operating over the same base and

2552
02:16:02,920 --> 02:16:05,160
Speaker 11: are starting to set up like rules and guidelines, and

2553
02:16:05,200 --> 02:16:07,480
Speaker 11: like Cassie and butts up against some of those rules

2554
02:16:07,520 --> 02:16:08,400
Speaker 11: a little bit here.

2555
02:16:08,320 --> 02:16:11,120
Speaker 2: Because he can't go and come as he pleases anymore, right,

2556
02:16:11,200 --> 02:16:13,480
Speaker 2: Like it gets him in trouble with General Draven.

2557
02:16:13,720 --> 02:16:16,640
Speaker 11: Yeah, it's not just rebel cells that are operating independently.

2558
02:16:17,080 --> 02:16:19,520
Speaker 11: Now they are trying out working together and that has

2559
02:16:19,600 --> 02:16:20,560
Speaker 11: some growing pains.

2560
02:16:20,640 --> 02:16:21,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2561
02:16:21,280 --> 02:16:23,240
Speaker 7: Well, and it's not just working together too, like, it's

2562
02:16:23,280 --> 02:16:27,400
Speaker 7: it's the command structure totally. Structure is becoming increasingly centralized

2563
02:16:27,400 --> 02:16:29,680
Speaker 7: in a way that it hasn't been. Well, it's the

2564
02:16:30,600 --> 02:16:32,800
Speaker 7: previous to this has been like the centralizing thing has

2565
02:16:32,840 --> 02:16:35,400
Speaker 7: been like Luthen kind of being an asshole to everyone

2566
02:16:35,440 --> 02:16:36,600
Speaker 7: but like moving stuff between them.

2567
02:16:36,600 --> 02:16:37,360
Speaker 2: And now it's like.

2568
02:16:37,440 --> 02:16:39,640
Speaker 11: Or Sagarera, right where where he operates as like a

2569
02:16:39,640 --> 02:16:41,800
Speaker 11: cult of personality type thing with his own militia.

2570
02:16:41,879 --> 02:16:45,160
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, right, well, but i mean like between all

2571
02:16:45,200 --> 02:16:49,200
Speaker 7: of the different networks. Yeah, and now it's like, no,

2572
02:16:49,280 --> 02:16:51,320
Speaker 7: we have this place where we're developing a chain of

2573
02:16:51,360 --> 02:16:53,440
Speaker 7: command and we're developing these sort of like totally we're

2574
02:16:53,480 --> 02:16:56,200
Speaker 7: going to become increasingly rigid like hierarchies in this In

2575
02:16:56,200 --> 02:16:56,959
Speaker 7: this whole thing.

2576
02:16:56,879 --> 02:16:59,960
Speaker 11: Luthen's becoming a somewhat controversial figure and is kind of

2577
02:17:00,240 --> 02:17:04,800
Speaker 11: getting pushed out of the actual organized rebellion because he's

2578
02:17:04,840 --> 02:17:06,120
Speaker 11: a little bit difficult to work with.

2579
02:17:07,600 --> 02:17:12,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he's an asshole. Like that's like, yeah, and well,

2580
02:17:13,000 --> 02:17:15,320
Speaker 2: he's he's doing what he has to do. I mean,

2581
02:17:15,520 --> 02:17:18,880
Speaker 2: I'm Luthen's last defender. If he's only got one fan,

2582
02:17:19,000 --> 02:17:23,240
Speaker 2: it's me. And Luthen is doing is handling this exactly

2583
02:17:23,280 --> 02:17:26,480
Speaker 2: how he has to. There's no room to be nice

2584
02:17:27,120 --> 02:17:30,840
Speaker 2: and there's no room for anybody's feelings in this. But that,

2585
02:17:31,480 --> 02:17:34,520
Speaker 2: you know, what we do see is people choosing now,

2586
02:17:34,760 --> 02:17:37,520
Speaker 2: I want to be involved in this kind of bigger

2587
02:17:37,560 --> 02:17:41,240
Speaker 2: and more structured thing where the way I am treated

2588
02:17:41,400 --> 02:17:43,880
Speaker 2: is less dependent upon the whims of this guy at

2589
02:17:43,879 --> 02:17:45,760
Speaker 2: the spoke, where I don't get to know anything, where

2590
02:17:45,760 --> 02:17:48,640
Speaker 2: there is a command structure, where there is there is

2591
02:17:48,640 --> 02:17:51,720
Speaker 2: a degree to which it's more like predictable how things

2592
02:17:51,760 --> 02:17:53,640
Speaker 2: will be day to day. Right, A lot of people

2593
02:17:53,720 --> 02:17:56,840
Speaker 2: do prefer that. Yeah, And also this at this stage

2594
02:17:56,879 --> 02:17:59,400
Speaker 2: of the rebellion. If you're going to take on a

2595
02:17:59,480 --> 02:18:04,720
Speaker 2: military like this, you need a formalized force. You need

2596
02:18:04,920 --> 02:18:08,400
Speaker 2: more of a command structure, You need a chain of command,

2597
02:18:08,440 --> 02:18:10,640
Speaker 2: and people need to know who is calling shots in

2598
02:18:10,720 --> 02:18:14,600
Speaker 2: what situations because you you simply can't function effectively in

2599
02:18:14,680 --> 02:18:16,520
Speaker 2: a large scale in combat without it.

2600
02:18:16,879 --> 02:18:19,640
Speaker 11: Yeah, well, well we'll talk more about kind of Luthen's

2601
02:18:19,680 --> 02:18:24,000
Speaker 11: situation in episode nine, you know, the Luthen of it all, Yeah,

2602
02:18:24,040 --> 02:18:25,800
Speaker 11: because that kind of gets more into like what his

2603
02:18:25,800 --> 02:18:27,800
Speaker 11: current place is in the rebellion. But like really like

2604
02:18:27,840 --> 02:18:31,840
Speaker 11: the role that he occupied is is frankly no longer needed,

2605
02:18:31,879 --> 02:18:34,000
Speaker 11: like like and he's even acknowledging this, Like they're they're

2606
02:18:34,040 --> 02:18:36,520
Speaker 11: they're going beyond the sort of like you know, like

2607
02:18:36,640 --> 02:18:40,200
Speaker 11: small scale like intel network, arms deals, like all this

2608
02:18:40,280 --> 02:18:43,920
Speaker 11: type of like like covert you know, the El Dawni raid.

2609
02:18:44,320 --> 02:18:47,480
Speaker 11: They're growing beyond what Luthen really specialized in. And and

2610
02:18:47,480 --> 02:18:49,800
Speaker 11: now they're doing a full on military and and Luthen's

2611
02:18:49,800 --> 02:18:52,840
Speaker 11: always been operating kind of like a DIY like spy agency,

2612
02:18:53,520 --> 02:18:55,640
Speaker 11: and and now they're they're they're they're doing a whole

2613
02:18:55,680 --> 02:18:59,039
Speaker 11: military and and that kind of butts up against how

2614
02:18:59,080 --> 02:19:03,320
Speaker 11: Luthen like to operate and like what he's like frankly

2615
02:19:03,360 --> 02:19:06,360
Speaker 11: just capable of doing. Like he he understands the importance

2616
02:19:06,360 --> 02:19:09,880
Speaker 11: of YABN, but he's also okay with not being there

2617
02:19:09,879 --> 02:19:10,400
Speaker 11: in person.

2618
02:19:10,840 --> 02:19:14,960
Speaker 2: Well I don't think he thinks he fits there, right, Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah,

2619
02:19:15,000 --> 02:19:19,160
Speaker 2: Like his whole thing is such a an idiosyncratic organization

2620
02:19:19,440 --> 02:19:22,320
Speaker 2: that's that's just based around him and Claya, you know,

2621
02:19:22,400 --> 02:19:24,640
Speaker 2: this this young woman that he works with. Like there's

2622
02:19:24,640 --> 02:19:27,480
Speaker 2: no place for him in a military command structure. That's

2623
02:19:27,520 --> 02:19:28,160
Speaker 2: not his thing.

2624
02:19:29,200 --> 02:19:32,720
Speaker 11: The other thing this episode really focuses on is like

2625
02:19:33,200 --> 02:19:36,000
Speaker 11: you know, news propaganda and like the idea of like

2626
02:19:36,080 --> 02:19:40,640
Speaker 11: like terrorism outside agitators and using those things as justifications

2627
02:19:40,680 --> 02:19:45,160
Speaker 11: for state crackdowns. The senator from Gorman talks with mon

2628
02:19:45,200 --> 02:19:47,760
Speaker 11: Mathma about about how he believes that like the Empire

2629
02:19:47,840 --> 02:19:51,040
Speaker 11: is lying about what's happening on Gorman and these bombings

2630
02:19:51,120 --> 02:19:53,560
Speaker 11: must be like a false flag attack. So you got

2631
02:19:53,600 --> 02:19:55,400
Speaker 11: to see a whole bunch of different people's perspectives and

2632
02:19:55,480 --> 02:19:58,600
Speaker 11: like validity of the actions that are happening on Gorman.

2633
02:19:58,720 --> 02:20:01,080
Speaker 11: Like there's there's questions over like who's doing this. Is

2634
02:20:01,080 --> 02:20:02,920
Speaker 11: the state just making these things up so that they

2635
02:20:02,920 --> 02:20:04,520
Speaker 11: have a justification to crack down on us.

2636
02:20:04,760 --> 02:20:05,760
Speaker 7: Are these things.

2637
02:20:05,760 --> 02:20:08,440
Speaker 11: Genuine or are they Are they being done by by

2638
02:20:08,520 --> 02:20:11,560
Speaker 11: people on Gorman who are like aligned with the resistance

2639
02:20:11,840 --> 02:20:14,280
Speaker 11: but maybe are getting like outside help. You have all

2640
02:20:14,600 --> 02:20:17,280
Speaker 11: those sorts of questions, and then the news media is

2641
02:20:17,280 --> 02:20:20,800
Speaker 11: like manufacturing consent for an imperial crackdown, like what was

2642
02:20:20,800 --> 02:20:23,640
Speaker 11: discussed in like the very first episode.

2643
02:20:23,760 --> 02:20:27,120
Speaker 7: It's very it's very seventies Italy, like because there's these

2644
02:20:27,160 --> 02:20:29,119
Speaker 7: bombings happening, because there's all this weird shit, and because

2645
02:20:29,120 --> 02:20:33,320
Speaker 7: nobody knows exactly who's doing what, everyone is like kind

2646
02:20:33,400 --> 02:20:37,360
Speaker 7: of become conspiracy brained and like half the conspiracies are true,

2647
02:20:37,360 --> 02:20:38,920
Speaker 7: but not only the ones people think are the ones

2648
02:20:38,920 --> 02:20:41,240
Speaker 7: that are true. And it's it's just like the information

2649
02:20:41,280 --> 02:20:44,000
Speaker 7: space has become so messy when you're dealing with such

2650
02:20:44,040 --> 02:20:46,200
Speaker 7: a combination of like of like of these attacks and

2651
02:20:46,240 --> 02:20:49,640
Speaker 7: of these like different kinds of above and below ground

2652
02:20:49,760 --> 02:20:52,440
Speaker 7: organizations where nobody knows exactly, no one's exactly talking to

2653
02:20:52,480 --> 02:20:55,360
Speaker 7: each other, and yeah, it just gets so messy so quickly.

2654
02:20:55,440 --> 02:20:58,040
Speaker 11: Even the Gorman front itself is like debating this, like

2655
02:20:58,080 --> 02:21:00,880
Speaker 11: they had this whole meeting where they discussed like tactics,

2656
02:21:00,959 --> 02:21:03,560
Speaker 11: like the role of the role of violence, and like

2657
02:21:03,680 --> 02:21:06,920
Speaker 11: as these big arguments erupt, they start to reflect on

2658
02:21:06,959 --> 02:21:09,400
Speaker 11: how the empire is actually set them up for infighting,

2659
02:21:09,640 --> 02:21:13,040
Speaker 11: and the most time they spend doing this, the less

2660
02:21:13,040 --> 02:21:16,640
Speaker 11: time they're actually doing anything helpful on Gorman or like

2661
02:21:16,760 --> 02:21:20,000
Speaker 11: doing anything that actually can secure their own like liberation

2662
02:21:20,120 --> 02:21:23,040
Speaker 11: or their own like you know, combat against the suppressive force.

2663
02:21:23,400 --> 02:21:26,119
Speaker 2: There's a good part in that scene where they're debating

2664
02:21:26,120 --> 02:21:29,160
Speaker 2: it where the guy who gets who kind of stumbles

2665
02:21:29,200 --> 02:21:33,400
Speaker 2: upon them doing the robbery. Yeah in the last like yeah, yeah, yeah.

2666
02:21:33,840 --> 02:21:36,400
Speaker 2: It has a speech where he's basically like, look, man,

2667
02:21:36,680 --> 02:21:39,600
Speaker 2: everyone's like whatever they're doing, whatever their attitude about the

2668
02:21:39,640 --> 02:21:42,160
Speaker 2: right way to resist, they're all Gormans to me, and

2669
02:21:42,200 --> 02:21:44,880
Speaker 2: so they're all on my side. Yeah, right, And I

2670
02:21:45,280 --> 02:21:48,320
Speaker 2: like the way that he that he expressed that because

2671
02:21:48,320 --> 02:21:50,400
Speaker 2: it very much as we're going to talk about next episode.

2672
02:21:50,720 --> 02:21:54,480
Speaker 2: It comports with who that guy is as a as

2673
02:21:54,520 --> 02:21:55,480
Speaker 2: a resistor. Right.

2674
02:21:55,640 --> 02:21:59,199
Speaker 11: There's like national identity is a big concept in these episodes,

2675
02:21:59,440 --> 02:22:02,600
Speaker 11: but not in like a fascistic nationalist sense.

2676
02:22:03,160 --> 02:22:05,360
Speaker 2: No, is in we're all in this, We're all going

2677
02:22:05,400 --> 02:22:07,840
Speaker 2: to hang together, is what I think he's saying.

2678
02:22:08,240 --> 02:22:11,880
Speaker 7: But like like national solidarity. Yeah yeah, it's like eighteen

2679
02:22:11,959 --> 02:22:15,480
Speaker 7: twenties kind of like or even like Ireland, right, like

2680
02:22:16,000 --> 02:22:18,200
Speaker 7: yeah yeah, And like you know, I can give a

2681
02:22:18,240 --> 02:22:20,080
Speaker 7: speech here about where this is going in about how

2682
02:22:20,120 --> 02:22:22,240
Speaker 7: shin Fame's like Turny gets imbigers and trans people, but

2683
02:22:22,240 --> 02:22:23,800
Speaker 7: it's also like that's just like that what's happening right now.

2684
02:22:23,800 --> 02:22:26,480
Speaker 7: This is like eighteen twenty, not like nineteen twenty.

2685
02:22:26,920 --> 02:22:28,280
Speaker 11: The last thing I want to talk about in this

2686
02:22:28,440 --> 02:22:32,680
Speaker 11: arc before we go on break is this Force healer

2687
02:22:33,080 --> 02:22:37,560
Speaker 11: that Cassiean reluctantly visits in the Yavin for mess Hall.

2688
02:22:37,959 --> 02:22:38,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2689
02:22:38,320 --> 02:22:40,000
Speaker 7: This was a super interesting scene to me, and this

2690
02:22:40,160 --> 02:22:41,359
Speaker 7: is the first.

2691
02:22:41,240 --> 02:22:45,440
Speaker 2: Time we have seen any mention of the Force really. Yeah.

2692
02:22:45,440 --> 02:22:48,920
Speaker 11: This is like the big like spiritual moment in this series,

2693
02:22:49,440 --> 02:22:51,080
Speaker 11: and or has kind of veered away from like the

2694
02:22:51,120 --> 02:22:53,160
Speaker 11: mystical side of Star Wars in favor of the more

2695
02:22:53,200 --> 02:22:59,440
Speaker 11: like materialist politics the Star Wars that they concluded this here,

2696
02:22:59,640 --> 02:23:02,600
Speaker 11: I thought was really interesting and really well done. And

2697
02:23:02,840 --> 02:23:04,959
Speaker 11: the reason why I like it so much is that,

2698
02:23:05,040 --> 02:23:09,480
Speaker 11: like throughout the Rebel Alliance, they always like agreet each

2699
02:23:09,520 --> 02:23:12,400
Speaker 11: other and like say, goodbye by saying may the Force

2700
02:23:12,440 --> 02:23:14,280
Speaker 11: be with you, which is a little bit odd because

2701
02:23:14,320 --> 02:23:18,240
Speaker 11: the Rebel Alliance isn't like a Jedi revivalist cult. They're

2702
02:23:18,280 --> 02:23:20,120
Speaker 11: not like a Force cult in the way that so

2703
02:23:20,120 --> 02:23:22,760
Speaker 11: many other groups and you know, Star Wars TM are,

2704
02:23:23,400 --> 02:23:27,080
Speaker 11: And the fact that you have people who engage with

2705
02:23:27,120 --> 02:23:30,360
Speaker 11: the Force in it's more like regular manner, more similar

2706
02:23:30,440 --> 02:23:34,199
Speaker 11: to like kind of like hippie woo spiritualist stuff that

2707
02:23:34,200 --> 02:23:37,680
Speaker 11: that props up in like radical spaces I find really interesting.

2708
02:23:38,320 --> 02:23:40,640
Speaker 11: And obviously in Star Wars that has more of like

2709
02:23:40,640 --> 02:23:43,320
Speaker 11: a legitimate backing because we all recognize the forces real.

2710
02:23:43,360 --> 02:23:44,959
Speaker 11: In Star Wars, the Force.

2711
02:23:44,760 --> 02:23:45,720
Speaker 2: Is fake, it's a psio.

2712
02:23:45,920 --> 02:23:48,840
Speaker 7: It's just the alien god thing in the black Holes.

2713
02:23:50,240 --> 02:23:53,520
Speaker 2: For in part what I love that and er is

2714
02:23:53,520 --> 02:23:57,720
Speaker 2: how big it makes the universe seem because Cassi Cassian

2715
02:23:57,800 --> 02:24:00,040
Speaker 2: isn't like he doesn't have like the you know, the

2716
02:24:00,040 --> 02:24:02,840
Speaker 2: There's that line in the in a New Hope where

2717
02:24:02,879 --> 02:24:05,879
Speaker 2: basically Han's like, I don't know, like Han's clearly heard

2718
02:24:05,879 --> 02:24:08,040
Speaker 2: of the Jedi, but he's like, I don't need like

2719
02:24:08,080 --> 02:24:09,480
Speaker 2: I don't give a shit about this.

2720
02:24:09,560 --> 02:24:11,920
Speaker 7: I don't need hokey religions or special efforts.

2721
02:24:12,160 --> 02:24:14,920
Speaker 2: It's like somebody talking about yeah, like like Wicca, right,

2722
02:24:15,080 --> 02:24:17,760
Speaker 2: Like if you're just like a dude who's a fucking

2723
02:24:17,840 --> 02:24:19,920
Speaker 2: drug dealer, You're like, I don't need to hear about that, man,

2724
02:24:19,959 --> 02:24:24,160
Speaker 2: I got I got fucking heroin to move, Like, yeah,

2725
02:24:24,360 --> 02:24:26,560
Speaker 2: it's very it's very much like it's it's very much

2726
02:24:26,680 --> 02:24:27,840
Speaker 2: like faith Healer coded.

2727
02:24:27,879 --> 02:24:30,000
Speaker 7: It's like, oh god, no, I'm not gonna see the

2728
02:24:30,080 --> 02:24:31,920
Speaker 7: faith healer come on, Like.

2729
02:24:32,080 --> 02:24:34,400
Speaker 11: No, yeah, And and he talks about how him and

2730
02:24:34,440 --> 02:24:37,240
Speaker 11: his like his mom had like a bad experience with

2731
02:24:37,280 --> 02:24:39,920
Speaker 11: a horse a force healer like ten years ago, and

2732
02:24:39,959 --> 02:24:41,840
Speaker 11: you're like, this is this is a whole like scam

2733
02:24:41,879 --> 02:24:42,680
Speaker 11: operation as well.

2734
02:24:42,760 --> 02:24:44,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, like fake force healers.

2735
02:24:44,600 --> 02:24:46,640
Speaker 2: And beyond that, the thing that's unset is what we

2736
02:24:46,680 --> 02:24:48,320
Speaker 2: know about Cassie and is he was raised on the

2737
02:24:48,320 --> 02:24:50,600
Speaker 2: planet completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy.

2738
02:24:50,680 --> 02:24:53,600
Speaker 2: His childhood was as a hunter gatherer in the deep jungle,

2739
02:24:54,160 --> 02:24:57,680
Speaker 2: and he was, presumably as all people's in that situation

2740
02:24:58,160 --> 02:25:01,520
Speaker 2: always have, raised with a set of beliefs about the

2741
02:25:01,640 --> 02:25:05,560
Speaker 2: universe and spirituality that were completely shattered when his entire

2742
02:25:05,600 --> 02:25:08,080
Speaker 2: planet was annihilated by the Empire. Right was it by

2743
02:25:08,120 --> 02:25:11,600
Speaker 2: the Republic. Well it was, it was in that transition, the.

2744
02:25:11,560 --> 02:25:13,960
Speaker 7: Fuzzy period between the Republic and the Empire.

2745
02:25:14,040 --> 02:25:18,560
Speaker 2: Yet yes, but of course he doesn't believe in anything, right,

2746
02:25:18,640 --> 02:25:21,879
Speaker 2: Like he had some sort of set of beliefs and

2747
02:25:22,000 --> 02:25:25,960
Speaker 2: the entire cosmology of his planet was annihilated, Like why

2748
02:25:26,000 --> 02:25:27,280
Speaker 2: would he believe in anything?

2749
02:25:27,879 --> 02:25:29,680
Speaker 11: I just like what this does for like the Alliance itself,

2750
02:25:29,720 --> 02:25:31,360
Speaker 11: and it shows that the Force is like a regular

2751
02:25:31,400 --> 02:25:33,880
Speaker 11: part of these people's lives. And like specifically the way

2752
02:25:33,920 --> 02:25:37,480
Speaker 11: the Force Healer talks is more about like the Force

2753
02:25:37,560 --> 02:25:39,720
Speaker 11: as this as this like operator of.

2754
02:25:39,680 --> 02:25:40,640
Speaker 7: Like fate and destiny.

2755
02:25:41,240 --> 02:25:43,480
Speaker 11: And it can sense that Cassian Andor is the main

2756
02:25:43,560 --> 02:25:45,960
Speaker 11: character in Rogue Wan a Star Wars story, and is

2757
02:25:46,000 --> 02:25:49,200
Speaker 11: important for the story of Star Wars, and she can

2758
02:25:49,240 --> 02:25:52,720
Speaker 11: feel that this is important, and so condicts and and

2759
02:25:53,000 --> 02:25:55,200
Speaker 11: Or is also freaked out by that like feeling. And

2760
02:25:55,560 --> 02:25:58,000
Speaker 11: I do like that version of the Force a lot.

2761
02:25:58,040 --> 02:25:59,920
Speaker 11: I think that's a much more interesting way to do it.

2762
02:26:00,240 --> 02:26:02,959
Speaker 11: And just like you know, force cults in like a

2763
02:26:03,000 --> 02:26:05,840
Speaker 11: forever religious war with each other for thousands of years.

2764
02:26:05,920 --> 02:26:08,199
Speaker 7: Yeah, if you if, if you pay us an unbelievably

2765
02:26:08,240 --> 02:26:10,000
Speaker 7: large amount of money, Garrison and I will have our

2766
02:26:10,040 --> 02:26:12,480
Speaker 7: six hour argument we have every time about the Force

2767
02:26:12,840 --> 02:26:13,360
Speaker 7: Star Wars.

2768
02:26:13,400 --> 02:26:15,400
Speaker 4: Well, I do also.

2769
02:26:15,320 --> 02:26:19,160
Speaker 7: Like that it's not one hundred percent clear that this

2770
02:26:19,200 --> 02:26:20,600
Speaker 7: person is even force sensitive.

2771
02:26:20,680 --> 02:26:22,760
Speaker 11: She can like feel through the force, but like everyone

2772
02:26:22,800 --> 02:26:24,120
Speaker 11: can with some degree of training.

2773
02:26:24,720 --> 02:26:26,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, but but it's well, but it's it's it's also

2774
02:26:26,959 --> 02:26:27,280
Speaker 2: like not.

2775
02:26:27,400 --> 02:26:30,280
Speaker 7: Clear that it's like like she's just a girl.

2776
02:26:30,440 --> 02:26:32,080
Speaker 2: She's yeah, yeah, but it's like it's it's not a

2777
02:26:32,640 --> 02:26:34,400
Speaker 2: his back seems to feel better.

2778
02:26:34,800 --> 02:26:37,119
Speaker 7: Yeah, no, yeah, totally yeah. But but but but also

2779
02:26:37,200 --> 02:26:39,600
Speaker 7: like that's the thing, like it's it's not it's not

2780
02:26:39,760 --> 02:26:43,400
Speaker 7: like a thing like Okay, this is like a Jedi, right,

2781
02:26:43,520 --> 02:26:45,560
Speaker 7: they're using the Force, and you could tell using the Force.

2782
02:26:45,680 --> 02:26:48,360
Speaker 7: This is a lot more kind of like nebulous, and

2783
02:26:48,400 --> 02:26:50,760
Speaker 7: it's not one hundred percent clear if it's happening or

2784
02:26:50,800 --> 02:26:53,160
Speaker 7: if it's everyone is like I think just thinks that

2785
02:26:53,240 --> 02:26:56,400
Speaker 7: it's happening or like what's you know, it's it's very no.

2786
02:26:56,840 --> 02:26:59,039
Speaker 11: Yeah, that's why I like it, Like, yeah, it's not

2787
02:26:59,080 --> 02:27:02,160
Speaker 11: a Jedi, it's just it's just someone and everyone in

2788
02:27:02,200 --> 02:27:04,800
Speaker 11: this universe can have a connection with the Force, because

2789
02:27:04,840 --> 02:27:07,240
Speaker 11: that's how this universe works, and some people don't want

2790
02:27:07,280 --> 02:27:09,360
Speaker 11: to or think it's fake, and other people get really

2791
02:27:09,360 --> 02:27:11,560
Speaker 11: into it. So people get way too into it, and

2792
02:27:11,920 --> 02:27:14,039
Speaker 11: then they do genocides in the name of the of

2793
02:27:14,080 --> 02:27:16,360
Speaker 11: their religious order. But for a lot of people like this,

2794
02:27:16,400 --> 02:27:18,440
Speaker 11: who aren't like a Jedi or aren't like a Sith

2795
02:27:18,560 --> 02:27:21,520
Speaker 11: or you know, a whatever, a guardian of the wills, God,

2796
02:27:22,480 --> 02:27:24,760
Speaker 11: it's just a thing you can like connect with and

2797
02:27:24,800 --> 02:27:27,120
Speaker 11: you can like feel your way through like fate and destiny.

2798
02:27:27,400 --> 02:27:30,800
Speaker 2: Well, and I really like that. They must have there

2799
02:27:30,879 --> 02:27:33,240
Speaker 2: must have been a discussion, should we have her say

2800
02:27:33,280 --> 02:27:35,560
Speaker 2: she used to be like a Paddawan, right who somehow

2801
02:27:35,680 --> 02:27:37,199
Speaker 2: escaped Order sixty six.

2802
02:27:37,480 --> 02:27:39,240
Speaker 7: That must have been God, she's not.

2803
02:27:39,400 --> 02:27:40,440
Speaker 2: Thank God, they just didn't.

2804
02:27:40,560 --> 02:27:42,480
Speaker 12: We don't know what she don't care, need to does

2805
02:27:42,720 --> 02:27:45,959
Speaker 12: matter because no one in the situation would give a shit. Yeah,

2806
02:27:46,360 --> 02:27:49,120
Speaker 12: Cassian's not gonna be like, so, yeah, tell me about

2807
02:27:49,160 --> 02:27:51,160
Speaker 12: like your fucking bad He doesn't give He doesn't give

2808
02:27:51,160 --> 02:27:51,560
Speaker 12: a fuck.

2809
02:27:51,600 --> 02:27:53,200
Speaker 2: There's so much else going on in his head at

2810
02:27:53,240 --> 02:27:53,560
Speaker 2: that moment.

2811
02:27:53,840 --> 02:27:55,960
Speaker 7: So much better that she's just a random person and

2812
02:27:55,959 --> 02:27:56,560
Speaker 7: we never know.

2813
02:27:56,959 --> 02:27:57,640
Speaker 2: We never know.

2814
02:27:58,160 --> 02:27:59,879
Speaker 11: All right, Let's go and break and come back to

2815
02:27:59,840 --> 02:28:14,680
Speaker 11: talk about the Gorman massacre. Yay, okay, we are back

2816
02:28:15,240 --> 02:28:17,960
Speaker 11: and or season two episode eight, Who are you?

2817
02:28:18,360 --> 02:28:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh I just I will talk a lot about

2818
02:28:21,640 --> 02:28:24,240
Speaker 2: the name of this episode. Oh yeah, baby, because I

2819
02:28:24,640 --> 02:28:27,200
Speaker 2: love it, because it's it's just some of the best

2820
02:28:27,240 --> 02:28:30,199
Speaker 2: writing that this show or any show has ever had.

2821
02:28:30,360 --> 02:28:33,240
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, please go ahead and give us the over there.

2822
02:28:33,680 --> 02:28:34,840
Speaker 7: Let's do a quick run down.

2823
02:28:34,920 --> 02:28:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah.

2824
02:28:36,120 --> 02:28:41,280
Speaker 11: As mining equipment lands across Gorman, troops barricade the Imperial

2825
02:28:41,360 --> 02:28:45,160
Speaker 11: headquarters in Palmo Square as they prepare for a mass protest.

2826
02:28:45,720 --> 02:28:49,439
Speaker 11: The Gorman Front prepares to retake the town square, distributing

2827
02:28:49,480 --> 02:28:53,240
Speaker 11: weapons and rallying just regular Gorman citizens to march on

2828
02:28:53,560 --> 02:28:57,120
Speaker 11: the town center. The old leader of the Front realizes

2829
02:28:57,240 --> 02:29:01,199
Speaker 11: too late that this protest is probably an Imperial trap

2830
02:29:01,480 --> 02:29:05,920
Speaker 11: and is powerless to stop this unfolding spectacle. He encounters

2831
02:29:05,800 --> 02:29:08,560
Speaker 11: a Cyril Kern on his way to the Imperial HQ

2832
02:29:09,000 --> 02:29:12,400
Speaker 11: and confronts Cyril about misleading the Gorman resistance and why

2833
02:29:12,440 --> 02:29:14,359
Speaker 11: the Empire is mining on Gorman.

2834
02:29:14,520 --> 02:29:17,160
Speaker 2: Oh, and this scene is the guy who plays Ryot.

2835
02:29:17,160 --> 02:29:19,200
Speaker 2: There's so many great monologues in this The dude who

2836
02:29:19,240 --> 02:29:22,200
Speaker 2: plays Rylands, who is the old rich guy who's kind

2837
02:29:22,240 --> 02:29:25,720
Speaker 2: of the organizing center of the Gorman Front.

2838
02:29:25,520 --> 02:29:26,240
Speaker 7: The original one.

2839
02:29:26,320 --> 02:29:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, has a beautiful speech here where he's just how

2840
02:29:30,560 --> 02:29:31,720
Speaker 2: can you say these things?

2841
02:29:31,760 --> 02:29:33,039
Speaker 7: What kind of being are you?

2842
02:29:33,240 --> 02:29:40,560
Speaker 2: What kind of being are you? Yeah, it's excellent, it's perfect,

2843
02:29:40,600 --> 02:29:42,600
Speaker 2: it's devastating. Yeah.

2844
02:29:42,840 --> 02:29:45,480
Speaker 11: Cyril breaks free and makes his way through the chanting

2845
02:29:45,600 --> 02:29:47,199
Speaker 11: crowd that's filled in a square.

2846
02:29:47,440 --> 02:29:47,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2847
02:29:47,879 --> 02:29:51,120
Speaker 11: After arriving at the barricaded Imperial Tower, Cyril sneaks into

2848
02:29:51,120 --> 02:29:54,320
Speaker 11: Dedra's office to demand to know what the Empire wants

2849
02:29:54,360 --> 02:29:58,200
Speaker 11: on Gorman. He chokes Dedra as she confesses that this

2850
02:29:58,240 --> 02:30:01,920
Speaker 11: has all been for the Emperor's new energy program, and

2851
02:30:02,000 --> 02:30:06,600
Speaker 11: she promises that they will soon return to Corussant as heroes.

2852
02:30:06,959 --> 02:30:09,879
Speaker 2: We'll get everything we want. The Empire will reward us

2853
02:30:09,879 --> 02:30:12,360
Speaker 2: for our loyalty. This is this is it. This is

2854
02:30:12,440 --> 02:30:14,440
Speaker 2: the last fucked up thing we have to do, and

2855
02:30:14,480 --> 02:30:16,800
Speaker 2: then we can live happily ever after. Yeah, didn't you

2856
02:30:16,840 --> 02:30:17,640
Speaker 2: want this promotion?

2857
02:30:18,000 --> 02:30:18,640
Speaker 7: Yeah? Yeah.

2858
02:30:18,680 --> 02:30:21,560
Speaker 11: She says that this might be the previous episode or

2859
02:30:21,720 --> 02:30:23,600
Speaker 11: this one, but like when Zero like kind of like

2860
02:30:23,640 --> 02:30:27,160
Speaker 11: protests that just like, yeah, but you weren't complaining when

2861
02:30:27,200 --> 02:30:30,760
Speaker 11: you got promoted into this into this job. But Zero

2862
02:30:30,879 --> 02:30:33,879
Speaker 11: wishes Dedra good luck and he leaves to join the

2863
02:30:33,959 --> 02:30:37,800
Speaker 11: crowd outside Cassie and is stationed on the outskirts of

2864
02:30:37,840 --> 02:30:39,520
Speaker 11: the crowd, trying to line up a shot to take

2865
02:30:39,560 --> 02:30:44,119
Speaker 11: out Dedra. But stormtroopers soon kettle the crowd and Imperial

2866
02:30:44,240 --> 02:30:47,240
Speaker 11: riot cops are sent into the square to jumpstart a

2867
02:30:47,280 --> 02:30:51,160
Speaker 11: flash point. Protesters throw rocks and bottles, but it's an

2868
02:30:51,200 --> 02:30:54,160
Speaker 11: Imperial sniper who is ordered to shoot their own riot

2869
02:30:54,160 --> 02:30:57,320
Speaker 11: cops that starts the Gorman massacre.

2870
02:30:57,160 --> 02:30:59,720
Speaker 2: And they make a beautiful point. The kettling is done

2871
02:30:59,720 --> 02:31:02,400
Speaker 2: by stormtroopers who are the elite, right, These are their

2872
02:31:02,520 --> 02:31:07,439
Speaker 2: very best infantry, the riot cops. From the moment they're introduced,

2873
02:31:07,440 --> 02:31:10,000
Speaker 2: because we see these guys land with their kit bags,

2874
02:31:10,400 --> 02:31:13,920
Speaker 2: their sergeant clearly has a lot more experience and is like,

2875
02:31:13,959 --> 02:31:15,840
Speaker 2: these guys don't know what the fuck they're doing. We

2876
02:31:15,959 --> 02:31:18,640
Speaker 2: cannot put them in any kind of dangerous they have

2877
02:31:19,680 --> 02:31:22,480
Speaker 2: and that's the point. That's why they're there. These men

2878
02:31:22,520 --> 02:31:25,040
Speaker 2: were hand picked to be the worst of the Empire.

2879
02:31:25,360 --> 02:31:27,959
Speaker 2: Here's they're expendable, right, and because you can count on

2880
02:31:28,000 --> 02:31:29,720
Speaker 2: them to panic and that's what's needed.

2881
02:31:29,800 --> 02:31:34,320
Speaker 11: They're cannon fodders. Yeah, they're sacrificial lambs. Yeah, now, Sir

2882
02:31:34,560 --> 02:31:37,880
Speaker 11: Cyril watches the chaos unfold as the Gorman Front tries

2883
02:31:37,879 --> 02:31:42,039
Speaker 11: to defend against the Imperial Slaughter and Chax security droids

2884
02:31:42,040 --> 02:31:46,040
Speaker 11: are sent into the town square, but when Cyril sees Cassian,

2885
02:31:46,760 --> 02:31:49,520
Speaker 11: he suddenly lunges at him and the two get into

2886
02:31:49,520 --> 02:31:50,480
Speaker 11: a brutal brawl.

2887
02:31:51,000 --> 02:31:51,720
Speaker 7: Cyril gets the.

2888
02:31:51,760 --> 02:31:55,920
Speaker 11: Upper hand, but is shocked when Cassian does not remember

2889
02:31:56,040 --> 02:32:00,560
Speaker 11: who he is. While frozen, pointing his blaster at Cassian,

2890
02:32:01,000 --> 02:32:03,959
Speaker 11: Cyril gets shot dead by the old leader of the

2891
02:32:03,959 --> 02:32:04,800
Speaker 11: Gorman Front.

2892
02:32:05,000 --> 02:32:09,920
Speaker 2: There's Rylan's It's an incredible moment. Yeah.

2893
02:32:10,040 --> 02:32:12,879
Speaker 11: While trying to exfiltrate Cassian meets up with Willem, who

2894
02:32:12,879 --> 02:32:15,520
Speaker 11: decides to stay and help the resistance. In the aftermath

2895
02:32:15,560 --> 02:32:18,960
Speaker 11: of the massacre, the Gorman Front broadcasts the final message

2896
02:32:18,959 --> 02:32:22,320
Speaker 11: about the Imperial siege, claiming there are thousands dead in

2897
02:32:22,360 --> 02:32:26,360
Speaker 11: the streets. Cyril's mother is in tears watching news reports

2898
02:32:26,360 --> 02:32:29,720
Speaker 11: coming out of Gorman that frame the Imperial troopers killed

2899
02:32:29,800 --> 02:32:31,039
Speaker 11: as fallen heroes.

2900
02:32:31,680 --> 02:32:32,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh boy, what.

2901
02:32:32,920 --> 02:32:37,439
Speaker 11: An episode, maybe the best episode in the series. Just phenomenal.

2902
02:32:38,120 --> 02:32:40,760
Speaker 2: It's phenomenal. I'll give you that. I don't know whish

2903
02:32:40,800 --> 02:32:43,400
Speaker 2: I'd pick us the best, but it's tough. It's tough.

2904
02:32:43,600 --> 02:32:45,440
Speaker 7: It's the prison break one still, because a break one's

2905
02:32:45,520 --> 02:32:45,840
Speaker 7: very good.

2906
02:32:46,160 --> 02:32:48,080
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go on a little rant about the name

2907
02:32:48,120 --> 02:32:51,920
Speaker 2: of this episode, who Are You, because that moment between

2908
02:32:52,200 --> 02:32:56,480
Speaker 2: Cassian and Cyril, is one that Tony Gilroy ha said

2909
02:32:56,480 --> 02:32:59,000
Speaker 2: interviews he had to fight for everyone was like just

2910
02:32:59,040 --> 02:33:01,400
Speaker 2: crazy and Diego Luna said it was one of the

2911
02:33:01,440 --> 02:33:04,360
Speaker 2: hardest lines for me to deliver because Luna likes the

2912
02:33:04,400 --> 02:33:07,000
Speaker 2: show and is a fan of the character Cyril and

2913
02:33:07,040 --> 02:33:09,760
Speaker 2: his acting, and he knows every and it has the

2914
02:33:09,800 --> 02:33:11,959
Speaker 2: degree of sympathy that you almost have to have for

2915
02:33:12,040 --> 02:33:14,560
Speaker 2: Cyril at this point totally, and so it was such

2916
02:33:14,600 --> 02:33:17,400
Speaker 2: a difficult challenge for him to be like to really

2917
02:33:17,440 --> 02:33:19,640
Speaker 2: sell who wait, who the fuck are you?

2918
02:33:19,720 --> 02:33:21,640
Speaker 7: Who shatters cyril self perception?

2919
02:33:21,840 --> 02:33:25,800
Speaker 2: Well, and it's not even I'll even push against a

2920
02:33:25,840 --> 02:33:28,000
Speaker 2: little bit that because I don't think it's entirely that.

2921
02:33:28,160 --> 02:33:31,280
Speaker 2: I think what I like about Cyril's journey is that,

2922
02:33:31,360 --> 02:33:33,200
Speaker 2: and what I like about this episode is that who

2923
02:33:33,240 --> 02:33:35,160
Speaker 2: Are You is not just about that line. It is

2924
02:33:35,160 --> 02:33:37,920
Speaker 2: about every character that we see in this We are

2925
02:33:38,000 --> 02:33:41,160
Speaker 2: learning who they all are, and they are learning who

2926
02:33:41,200 --> 02:33:44,320
Speaker 2: they all are. Rylands in the beginning, right, this guy

2927
02:33:44,360 --> 02:33:46,720
Speaker 2: who had been so gung ho about the Gorman resistance,

2928
02:33:47,040 --> 02:33:50,160
Speaker 2: who had been when he realizes what's happening, that they're

2929
02:33:50,160 --> 02:33:52,840
Speaker 2: all going to be massacred, his family and his culture

2930
02:33:52,879 --> 02:33:55,320
Speaker 2: are going to be wiped out as a result of

2931
02:33:55,360 --> 02:33:58,199
Speaker 2: this act of resistance that he's helped organize. He tries

2932
02:33:58,240 --> 02:33:59,760
Speaker 2: to stop it. He says, we have to pull back.

2933
02:33:59,760 --> 02:34:03,320
Speaker 2: We and he learns he's not a rebel, right, he's

2934
02:34:03,400 --> 02:34:05,880
Speaker 2: a reel And there's always been hints of that. He's

2935
02:34:05,879 --> 02:34:08,160
Speaker 2: not a rebel. He's always you know, the Emperor can't

2936
02:34:08,200 --> 02:34:09,720
Speaker 2: know about this, right, We've seen hints of this from

2937
02:34:09,760 --> 02:34:13,280
Speaker 2: Mark Rylance. He learns that about himself. And then a

2938
02:34:13,280 --> 02:34:15,800
Speaker 2: little later in the episode when it's become because we

2939
02:34:16,240 --> 02:34:19,240
Speaker 2: watch his kids get massacred. He doesn't see them, but

2940
02:34:19,320 --> 02:34:22,560
Speaker 2: he knows they're dead. He hears the gunfire. He understands

2941
02:34:22,600 --> 02:34:24,240
Speaker 2: no one's making it out of there. He's not a

2942
02:34:24,320 --> 02:34:27,320
Speaker 2: dumb man. And when he comes in and shoots Cyril

2943
02:34:27,360 --> 02:34:30,039
Speaker 2: in the head, he learns again who he is. And

2944
02:34:30,080 --> 02:34:33,240
Speaker 2: now he wasn't before, but now he is because they've

2945
02:34:33,280 --> 02:34:35,560
Speaker 2: taken everything from him, right, Yeah.

2946
02:34:35,600 --> 02:34:38,040
Speaker 11: The quote from earlier when he's like arguing with people

2947
02:34:38,040 --> 02:34:40,400
Speaker 11: in the streets, He's like, the only path forward is

2948
02:34:40,680 --> 02:34:44,120
Speaker 11: silent resistance. Yeah, And by the end of the episode

2949
02:34:44,160 --> 02:34:46,680
Speaker 11: he is a little beyond that.

2950
02:34:47,240 --> 02:34:50,080
Speaker 2: And I love for him that he gets a chance

2951
02:34:50,120 --> 02:34:53,520
Speaker 2: to learn who he is and be wrong and then

2952
02:34:53,640 --> 02:34:56,800
Speaker 2: learn again and be right right, which is not a

2953
02:34:56,879 --> 02:35:00,760
Speaker 2: chance Cyril is going to get. Cyril does and all

2954
02:35:01,280 --> 02:35:03,440
Speaker 2: Cyril is. We see, we see a lot of characters

2955
02:35:03,440 --> 02:35:05,920
Speaker 2: in this who could only have been themselves in a

2956
02:35:05,959 --> 02:35:09,400
Speaker 2: fascist state. Dedra's one of them, right, Dedra could not

2957
02:35:09,520 --> 02:35:12,680
Speaker 2: have been the person she is outside of the Empire.

2958
02:35:13,240 --> 02:35:15,560
Speaker 2: I think part of Goaz probably is too, could never

2959
02:35:15,600 --> 02:35:20,440
Speaker 2: have been himself fully outside. Certainly, well, I think if you.

2960
02:35:20,400 --> 02:35:24,760
Speaker 7: Put Partigas into CIA, he is mostly the same guy.

2961
02:35:24,800 --> 02:35:28,160
Speaker 2: I think he must have been in the Republic CIA. Yeah.

2962
02:35:28,240 --> 02:35:32,880
Speaker 11: He feels very like Republic transitioned into the empire, like God.

2963
02:35:33,440 --> 02:35:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think Krenick obviously is one of our best.

2964
02:35:36,480 --> 02:35:41,880
Speaker 2: Crenic is only an empire is under fascism, Ye, Cyril

2965
02:35:42,040 --> 02:35:45,760
Speaker 2: is not an ideological fascist. Cyril never really embraces fascism

2966
02:35:45,800 --> 02:35:48,560
Speaker 2: as a belief system. He never understands the Empire that way,

2967
02:35:48,600 --> 02:35:51,640
Speaker 2: he just understands the Empire's law and order, or he

2968
02:35:51,720 --> 02:35:53,840
Speaker 2: gets if you look at it from Cyril's standpoint, he

2969
02:35:53,879 --> 02:35:56,160
Speaker 2: gets brought into this not because he wants to cramp

2970
02:35:56,240 --> 02:35:58,560
Speaker 2: down on clamp down on the evil rebels and he

2971
02:35:58,680 --> 02:36:01,760
Speaker 2: loves Palpatine and wants to kill Freedom. It's because two

2972
02:36:01,879 --> 02:36:05,520
Speaker 2: guys are murdered that he considers colleagues, and he thinks

2973
02:36:05,560 --> 02:36:06,080
Speaker 2: it's wrong.

2974
02:36:06,440 --> 02:36:06,600
Speaker 6: Right.

2975
02:36:06,920 --> 02:36:08,680
Speaker 7: He has a sense of like justice.

2976
02:36:08,440 --> 02:36:11,160
Speaker 2: And he believes he's following that, and he believes that

2977
02:36:11,240 --> 02:36:14,320
Speaker 2: his girlfriend is invested in that, and he truly believes.

2978
02:36:14,360 --> 02:36:16,400
Speaker 2: He doesn't want to hurt the people of Gorman. He

2979
02:36:16,480 --> 02:36:19,440
Speaker 2: wants to find the outside agitators who are driving them

2980
02:36:19,520 --> 02:36:22,600
Speaker 2: to disaster, right, And the moment when he learns that

2981
02:36:22,720 --> 02:36:25,320
Speaker 2: that's all a lie, he beats the shit out of

2982
02:36:25,360 --> 02:36:27,800
Speaker 2: his girlfriend in a very violent I had an argument

2983
02:36:27,879 --> 02:36:30,840
Speaker 2: with someone online about like, is this domestic violence? And

2984
02:36:30,959 --> 02:36:33,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, in a literal sense, these people are in

2985
02:36:33,680 --> 02:36:36,200
Speaker 2: a domestic partnership and he is doing violence to her.

2986
02:36:36,600 --> 02:36:39,240
Speaker 2: In a moral sense, if you find out that your

2987
02:36:39,280 --> 02:36:43,760
Speaker 2: significant other has been hiding a genocide from you, I

2988
02:36:43,879 --> 02:36:48,240
Speaker 2: think it's okay. Like and you've been made complicit in it.

2989
02:36:48,760 --> 02:36:51,480
Speaker 11: It's such a fucked up, it's such a it's such

2990
02:36:51,640 --> 02:36:54,760
Speaker 11: like every everyone is everyone's fucked and everyone's evil and

2991
02:36:54,800 --> 02:36:57,680
Speaker 11: everyone's complicit. Yes, and they're all like calling their own

2992
02:36:57,760 --> 02:37:00,600
Speaker 11: commitment to like the state and what they view as

2993
02:37:00,760 --> 02:37:03,520
Speaker 11: justice and law and order into question. And like for Cyril,

2994
02:37:04,080 --> 02:37:06,240
Speaker 11: like he's he has just committed to this idea like

2995
02:37:06,400 --> 02:37:08,680
Speaker 11: justice and what he sees as law and order, and

2996
02:37:08,800 --> 02:37:11,600
Speaker 11: the Empire is the physical manifestation of law and order,

2997
02:37:11,640 --> 02:37:14,040
Speaker 11: so therefore the Empire must be good, right, and and

2998
02:37:14,160 --> 02:37:18,279
Speaker 11: that's his view. And when he realizes maybe the Empire

2999
02:37:18,360 --> 02:37:21,440
Speaker 11: actually doesn't really care about law and order, No, they

3000
02:37:21,600 --> 02:37:24,600
Speaker 11: just like it, she gets so confused. Like he he

3001
02:37:25,080 --> 02:37:27,160
Speaker 11: doesn't know how to orient himself in the world. He

3002
02:37:27,240 --> 02:37:30,440
Speaker 11: doesn't know where a sense of morals can be derived from. No,

3003
02:37:30,680 --> 02:37:32,440
Speaker 11: if the state is not the represent is not like

3004
02:37:32,560 --> 02:37:35,280
Speaker 11: the lawful good representation of like justice.

3005
02:37:35,440 --> 02:37:39,560
Speaker 2: And we've seen from Cyril previously that he has physical courage, right,

3006
02:37:39,640 --> 02:37:42,400
Speaker 2: he's not afraid of violence, he's not afraid of putting

3007
02:37:42,440 --> 02:37:45,560
Speaker 2: himself in physical danger, right, Like he's not a Cassian

3008
02:37:45,680 --> 02:37:48,200
Speaker 2: and or level comfortable with it, right because he just

3009
02:37:48,240 --> 02:37:50,520
Speaker 2: doesn't have that kind of experience. But he's he's not

3010
02:37:51,080 --> 02:37:54,160
Speaker 2: he's not physically a coward, but he's a moral coward

3011
02:37:54,280 --> 02:37:58,200
Speaker 2: the whole series and that changes and again going back

3012
02:37:58,240 --> 02:38:00,520
Speaker 2: to who are You? He understand he learns one thing

3013
02:38:00,600 --> 02:38:04,520
Speaker 2: about himself, which is that he is not a genocide committer, right,

3014
02:38:04,760 --> 02:38:08,040
Speaker 2: he is not someone who will consciously participate in the

3015
02:38:08,120 --> 02:38:09,400
Speaker 2: annihilation of a race.

3016
02:38:09,800 --> 02:38:09,959
Speaker 6: Right.

3017
02:38:10,160 --> 02:38:12,920
Speaker 2: When he learns that those are the stakes he hits,

3018
02:38:13,200 --> 02:38:15,880
Speaker 2: he chokes Dedra and he fucking runs. He doesn't know

3019
02:38:16,000 --> 02:38:19,800
Speaker 2: anything else about himself at that point. And my interpretation

3020
02:38:20,040 --> 02:38:23,160
Speaker 2: of his reaction to that line from Cassian isn't just

3021
02:38:23,680 --> 02:38:25,760
Speaker 2: because I think what I love about the scene when

3022
02:38:25,760 --> 02:38:28,000
Speaker 2: he chooses to attack him, It's not him making a

3023
02:38:28,080 --> 02:38:30,240
Speaker 2: decision to go back to the Empire. He's not trying

3024
02:38:30,280 --> 02:38:33,000
Speaker 2: to rest to fight Cassian because he wants to get

3025
02:38:33,080 --> 02:38:35,440
Speaker 2: back and good. It's just the only thing that makes sense.

3026
02:38:36,000 --> 02:38:40,080
Speaker 2: He's nothing ring to his child self. Yes, yes, it's

3027
02:38:40,560 --> 02:38:42,879
Speaker 2: crazy because it's animal. The way that he goes after

3028
02:38:42,959 --> 02:38:45,480
Speaker 2: him is like a rabbit dog charging, you know.

3029
02:38:46,400 --> 02:38:48,720
Speaker 11: Like this whole situation on Gorman calls into question how

3030
02:38:48,760 --> 02:38:51,000
Speaker 11: he sees the Empire and therefore how he sees himself

3031
02:38:51,120 --> 02:38:52,760
Speaker 11: as he realizes that he's just been a pawn in

3032
02:38:52,840 --> 02:38:56,279
Speaker 11: the empire's larger game. And like, in a way, Gorman's

3033
02:38:56,320 --> 02:38:58,320
Speaker 11: the first time that Cyril has been part of like

3034
02:38:58,360 --> 02:39:01,040
Speaker 11: a real community, maybe since he was like a Corpo cop,

3035
02:39:01,480 --> 02:39:04,320
Speaker 11: Like there's no like solidarity in community like on Coorissant,

3036
02:39:04,400 --> 02:39:07,000
Speaker 11: there's not in the Bureau of Standards. Like Gorman's the

3037
02:39:07,040 --> 02:39:08,640
Speaker 11: first time he's actually kind of been a part of

3038
02:39:08,720 --> 02:39:11,200
Speaker 11: a community. And like this happens with like with like

3039
02:39:11,400 --> 02:39:15,280
Speaker 11: FBI double agents infiltrating radical organizations. Sometimes it's it's yeah,

3040
02:39:15,400 --> 02:39:17,640
Speaker 11: it's it's very odd. So like when he decides to

3041
02:39:17,840 --> 02:39:20,000
Speaker 11: join the crowd, it's just like he's aligning with them.

3042
02:39:20,720 --> 02:39:23,040
Speaker 11: But then when he sees Cassie and all of this

3043
02:39:23,080 --> 02:39:25,920
Speaker 11: psychological like progress, and the question that he's done just

3044
02:39:26,000 --> 02:39:28,640
Speaker 11: gets immediately rolled back because then he sees the guy

3045
02:39:28,680 --> 02:39:30,840
Speaker 11: who he thinks like kind of like ruined his life,

3046
02:39:30,840 --> 02:39:34,360
Speaker 11: who like who who altered the trajectory of what Zero's

3047
02:39:34,360 --> 02:39:37,280
Speaker 11: life was supposed to be, And therefore he just he yeah,

3048
02:39:37,320 --> 02:39:41,040
Speaker 11: he turns into an animal. He undoes all of all

3049
02:39:41,080 --> 02:39:44,040
Speaker 11: of this psychological progress and attacks the guy that he

3050
02:39:44,200 --> 02:39:46,959
Speaker 11: views ruined his life, and then in his final moments

3051
02:39:47,040 --> 02:39:49,680
Speaker 11: is in part like confronted with the idea that like

3052
02:39:50,240 --> 02:39:52,240
Speaker 11: the guy that he's been obsessing over for years doesn't

3053
02:39:52,280 --> 02:39:55,080
Speaker 11: even remember who he is, and like Cassian has been

3054
02:39:55,120 --> 02:39:57,600
Speaker 11: living rent free in his head this whole time, and

3055
02:39:57,840 --> 02:40:00,520
Speaker 11: and like he didn't need to, like Yarol could have

3056
02:40:00,600 --> 02:40:02,600
Speaker 11: moved on. Seril didn't need to do this, And he's

3057
02:40:02,600 --> 02:40:05,560
Speaker 11: been obsessing over someone who doesn't even remember him.

3058
02:40:06,040 --> 02:40:08,600
Speaker 7: So I think the other thing that's really important about

3059
02:40:08,760 --> 02:40:11,320
Speaker 7: Cyril's character is like if if you remember him in

3060
02:40:11,400 --> 02:40:14,200
Speaker 7: like the very beginning of season one, right, he has

3061
02:40:14,280 --> 02:40:16,400
Speaker 7: like like like what he like goes home, like he

3062
02:40:16,480 --> 02:40:18,320
Speaker 7: has like a storm he has like storm tuber like

3063
02:40:18,360 --> 02:40:21,040
Speaker 7: figure out yea clone trooper like action figure. Yes, And

3064
02:40:21,120 --> 02:40:22,480
Speaker 7: and he has and you know, and he's he's like

3065
02:40:22,560 --> 02:40:26,120
Speaker 7: tailoring his own uniform because he has this conception of

3066
02:40:26,320 --> 02:40:29,000
Speaker 7: himself as this like you know, as like this like

3067
02:40:29,160 --> 02:40:31,640
Speaker 7: this brave cop, as this like sort of like like

3068
02:40:31,760 --> 02:40:33,760
Speaker 7: this like that this is very specific kind of like

3069
02:40:34,120 --> 02:40:36,760
Speaker 7: fascist bureaucrat with a gun like platonic figure.

3070
02:40:36,959 --> 02:40:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3071
02:40:37,320 --> 02:40:40,600
Speaker 7: And the thing is Denser Miro is that actual person.

3072
02:40:41,080 --> 02:40:42,600
Speaker 7: And this is and this is a tension that that

3073
02:40:42,720 --> 02:40:44,160
Speaker 7: they that it's kind of worked out, or of course

3074
02:40:44,200 --> 02:40:47,360
Speaker 7: season one if like Dendri Muro is a character who

3075
02:40:47,480 --> 02:40:49,920
Speaker 7: in a conventional show is a hero right like she

3076
02:40:50,080 --> 02:40:52,000
Speaker 7: is she is she is like the cop that's willing

3077
02:40:52,080 --> 02:40:54,640
Speaker 7: to work outside of the restrictions of the thing in

3078
02:40:54,760 --> 02:40:56,520
Speaker 7: order to get the job done. Yeah, and then and

3079
02:40:56,600 --> 02:40:59,520
Speaker 7: you get to see what that actually is in real life,

3080
02:40:59,560 --> 02:41:02,920
Speaker 7: which is she's just fucking torturing people, and you know,

3081
02:41:03,000 --> 02:41:04,640
Speaker 7: and she's torturing people and she's gone and she and

3082
02:41:04,920 --> 02:41:07,320
Speaker 7: when she gets offered a chance to do the genocide

3083
02:41:07,360 --> 02:41:08,760
Speaker 7: in order to investment, she gets that.

3084
02:41:08,840 --> 02:41:09,720
Speaker 2: And I think part of what's.

3085
02:41:09,560 --> 02:41:12,440
Speaker 7: Going on with Cerial is like Cyril's whole thing is

3086
02:41:12,480 --> 02:41:16,160
Speaker 7: that he has been trying to be this cop and

3087
02:41:16,320 --> 02:41:19,600
Speaker 7: then he has this moment where he's like, oh shit,

3088
02:41:19,959 --> 02:41:22,840
Speaker 7: none of that's like real. The actual thing that it

3089
02:41:22,959 --> 02:41:25,200
Speaker 7: means to be this cop isn't just this isn't this

3090
02:41:25,480 --> 02:41:28,160
Speaker 7: like I dress up in my in my client was closed.

3091
02:41:28,160 --> 02:41:29,880
Speaker 7: And he gets this season one too where he like

3092
02:41:30,320 --> 02:41:33,280
Speaker 7: actually goes into the field and it's just like everyone's

3093
02:41:33,280 --> 02:41:35,160
Speaker 7: fucking dying around him and he's shell shocked and things

3094
02:41:35,160 --> 02:41:37,720
Speaker 7: are exploding, and it's like he's getting that here again

3095
02:41:37,760 --> 02:41:39,560
Speaker 7: where it's like his' like thing where he's been cultivating

3096
02:41:39,600 --> 02:41:41,160
Speaker 7: this like intelligence.

3097
02:41:41,120 --> 02:41:45,160
Speaker 2: Person and he sees it and it just like it

3098
02:41:45,320 --> 02:41:47,800
Speaker 2: just sort of it rips away.

3099
02:41:47,879 --> 02:41:50,360
Speaker 7: The facade that's like that is the facade of how

3100
02:41:51,400 --> 02:41:53,600
Speaker 7: like on a kind of macro level, like how we

3101
02:41:54,040 --> 02:41:57,840
Speaker 7: how film and television and how American media thinks about

3102
02:41:57,959 --> 02:42:02,160
Speaker 7: like spies and thinks about cops. Sure, and you see

3103
02:42:02,200 --> 02:42:04,400
Speaker 7: that the actual brutal reality of it, which is like

3104
02:42:05,000 --> 02:42:07,440
Speaker 7: through through the eyes of this person who who like

3105
02:42:07,560 --> 02:42:10,520
Speaker 7: through through this sort of like media stuff, has always

3106
02:42:10,560 --> 02:42:12,680
Speaker 7: wanted to become this person and is like, oh, you're

3107
02:42:12,760 --> 02:42:14,640
Speaker 7: just doing a genocide. The one part of being a

3108
02:42:14,720 --> 02:42:17,000
Speaker 7: cop that I can do is like choking is like

3109
02:42:17,120 --> 02:42:17,960
Speaker 7: choking my partner.

3110
02:42:18,480 --> 02:42:23,840
Speaker 2: M So my interpretation of kind of his ending moments

3111
02:42:24,720 --> 02:42:28,320
Speaker 2: is that Number one, I don't really feel it is

3112
02:42:28,440 --> 02:42:31,000
Speaker 2: necessarily that he undoes all the progress. I think that

3113
02:42:31,120 --> 02:42:34,760
Speaker 2: there's this this animal moment when he sees Cassian that

3114
02:42:34,920 --> 02:42:37,040
Speaker 2: just overrides that because nothing else about his life has

3115
02:42:37,240 --> 02:42:40,840
Speaker 2: makes sense anymore. He's completely lost any sense of sanity. Sure,

3116
02:42:41,040 --> 02:42:44,080
Speaker 2: and Cassian makes sense. Fighting him makes sense, and so

3117
02:42:44,240 --> 02:42:47,560
Speaker 2: he does it, and we do see he has a

3118
02:42:47,720 --> 02:42:50,720
Speaker 2: chance to shoot him, and he hesitates and he lowers

3119
02:42:50,760 --> 02:42:52,960
Speaker 2: the gun just a bit and then he's immediately shot

3120
02:42:53,440 --> 02:42:55,920
Speaker 2: and in that moment. Number One, one of the themes

3121
02:42:55,959 --> 02:42:58,000
Speaker 2: of this is that, like everyone has their own rebellion,

3122
02:42:58,800 --> 02:43:01,600
Speaker 2: there's an argument you can make that him not doing

3123
02:43:01,760 --> 02:43:05,800
Speaker 2: that was his last little act of that. There's an

3124
02:43:05,879 --> 02:43:07,680
Speaker 2: argument that like maybe he would have, you know, tried

3125
02:43:07,720 --> 02:43:10,560
Speaker 2: to engage you in conversation or like you know, monologued

3126
02:43:10,640 --> 02:43:12,680
Speaker 2: or whateverbody didn't get the chance. We just don't know.

3127
02:43:12,840 --> 02:43:15,960
Speaker 2: We'll never know. And he's kind of contrasted with Rylands

3128
02:43:16,000 --> 02:43:18,959
Speaker 2: and that Rylans does get the chance to see who

3129
02:43:19,040 --> 02:43:22,320
Speaker 2: he is and have it be not enough and then

3130
02:43:22,520 --> 02:43:25,760
Speaker 2: become enough. Cyril gets the chance to see who he

3131
02:43:25,879 --> 02:43:28,080
Speaker 2: is and he does do one. He gets one win,

3132
02:43:28,240 --> 02:43:31,000
Speaker 2: and it is a win to realize there's a genocide

3133
02:43:31,040 --> 02:43:32,680
Speaker 2: going on and I refuse to be a part of it.

3134
02:43:32,800 --> 02:43:32,920
Speaker 6: Right.

3135
02:43:33,000 --> 02:43:36,600
Speaker 2: That's not nothing that he makes that choice. We don't

3136
02:43:36,640 --> 02:43:38,640
Speaker 2: know where he would have gone from here. There's a

3137
02:43:38,760 --> 02:43:40,480
Speaker 2: version of Cyril that could have been a part of

3138
02:43:40,560 --> 02:43:42,280
Speaker 2: the rebel, that could have if he had just left

3139
02:43:42,400 --> 02:43:45,480
Speaker 2: Cassie and helped some Gorman's escape on a ship, used

3140
02:43:45,520 --> 02:43:48,680
Speaker 2: his imperial credentials gotten them out of there. It becomes

3141
02:43:48,800 --> 02:43:53,080
Speaker 2: something else We'll never know because he doesn't get the chance.

3142
02:43:53,160 --> 02:43:56,240
Speaker 2: And I see in that last moment, not just him

3143
02:43:56,280 --> 02:43:58,120
Speaker 2: being like, you don't know who I am? Oh, that

3144
02:43:58,280 --> 02:44:01,440
Speaker 2: shatters me, but him being asked who are you and

3145
02:44:01,600 --> 02:44:04,920
Speaker 2: realizing I have no answer to that question? Yeah? Yeah,

3146
02:44:05,080 --> 02:44:07,640
Speaker 2: And he just doesn't get the chance ever to do that.

3147
02:44:08,400 --> 02:44:13,520
Speaker 11: It is a very like Greek tragedy, ugh like moment tyr. Yeah, phenomenal,

3148
02:44:13,720 --> 02:44:14,760
Speaker 11: phenomenal screenwriting.

3149
02:44:15,200 --> 02:44:16,959
Speaker 2: I will larw you. It's going to get paid off

3150
02:44:17,040 --> 02:44:19,920
Speaker 2: a lot in the next three episodes. But there's this

3151
02:44:20,040 --> 02:44:22,600
Speaker 2: idea that has run through the series that even if

3152
02:44:22,680 --> 02:44:25,840
Speaker 2: you are someone working within this machinery of death, within

3153
02:44:25,920 --> 02:44:30,280
Speaker 2: this evil empire, you're not unredeemable or unsavable. But you

3154
02:44:30,360 --> 02:44:35,760
Speaker 2: don't have unlimited time. Right, Yeah, you can be something else.

3155
02:44:35,920 --> 02:44:40,640
Speaker 2: You have that chance, but you don't have infinite days

3156
02:44:41,120 --> 02:44:42,120
Speaker 2: to make that choice.

3157
02:44:42,280 --> 02:44:44,920
Speaker 11: This is like the entire message of Star Wars. This

3158
02:44:45,080 --> 02:44:47,720
Speaker 11: is like, this is this is like Luke in Vader

3159
02:44:47,760 --> 02:44:49,880
Speaker 11: in the Throne Room. This is like what this whole

3160
02:44:49,959 --> 02:44:50,960
Speaker 11: series is about.

3161
02:44:51,240 --> 02:44:52,040
Speaker 7: Like is this moment.

3162
02:44:52,160 --> 02:44:54,960
Speaker 11: Yeah, yep, I do have a few other things I

3163
02:44:55,000 --> 02:44:56,880
Speaker 11: want to talk about in terms of like the massacre.

3164
02:44:57,680 --> 02:44:59,080
Speaker 11: I really like that we see a return of like

3165
02:44:59,080 --> 02:45:02,040
Speaker 11: imperial military police, not just stormtroopers. I think putting a

3166
02:45:02,120 --> 02:45:05,040
Speaker 11: face on the riot cops is really good for the

3167
02:45:05,080 --> 02:45:11,119
Speaker 11: audience because stormtroopers are backpacks and t shirts and little

3168
02:45:11,240 --> 02:45:15,480
Speaker 11: fun toys and riot cops or riot cops. I'd really

3169
02:45:15,600 --> 02:45:17,959
Speaker 11: like that Willman is sleeping with a French militant.

3170
02:45:18,080 --> 02:45:19,279
Speaker 7: Many such cases.

3171
02:45:20,480 --> 02:45:20,959
Speaker 2: Among us.

3172
02:45:23,440 --> 02:45:26,280
Speaker 11: Hartagras in a like a phone call with Dedras talking

3173
02:45:26,320 --> 02:45:29,720
Speaker 11: about how like yeah, like you know, propaganda, news media

3174
02:45:29,720 --> 02:45:32,440
Speaker 11: has been useful and like spreading like rumors and like

3175
02:45:32,520 --> 02:45:34,240
Speaker 11: you know, like co intel pro that's for stuff. It's

3176
02:45:34,240 --> 02:45:36,920
Speaker 11: been useful. But now the only the quote is like

3177
02:45:36,959 --> 02:45:39,840
Speaker 11: now the only story is Gorman aggression. Like this is

3178
02:45:39,879 --> 02:45:41,800
Speaker 11: all that we can focus on. There's there's no no

3179
02:45:41,920 --> 02:45:44,960
Speaker 11: more of this like outside agitators thing, no more of

3180
02:45:45,000 --> 02:45:47,560
Speaker 11: this like long term slow planning. We have to we

3181
02:45:47,640 --> 02:45:50,480
Speaker 11: just have to focus on how like savage these Gormans are.

3182
02:45:51,080 --> 02:45:54,160
Speaker 11: And meanwhile, like Fox like space, Fox News is outside

3183
02:45:54,240 --> 02:45:56,640
Speaker 11: stoking divisions on Gorman, talking about how there's rumors of

3184
02:45:56,640 --> 02:46:01,440
Speaker 11: a quote unquote general strike. How How how the empire

3185
02:46:01,480 --> 02:46:06,080
Speaker 11: is negotiating for like a peaceful demonstration, even though even

3186
02:46:06,120 --> 02:46:08,320
Speaker 11: though even though the leaders are obviously you know, making

3187
02:46:08,600 --> 02:46:12,520
Speaker 11: making people agitated in this in this growing insurrection, The

3188
02:46:12,680 --> 02:46:15,240
Speaker 11: Chance got me. I have heard way too many the

3189
02:46:15,320 --> 02:46:17,080
Speaker 11: whole world is watching Chance.

3190
02:46:17,240 --> 02:46:17,959
Speaker 7: So as soon as they.

3191
02:46:17,840 --> 02:46:22,720
Speaker 4: Started to go the galaxy, I started like, I started

3192
02:46:22,720 --> 02:46:25,480
Speaker 4: like get like sweat egg I started having no No that.

3193
02:46:25,600 --> 02:46:29,280
Speaker 2: That gave me a little breakdown too. It's my least favorite. No,

3194
02:46:29,400 --> 02:46:30,160
Speaker 2: it's happening again.

3195
02:46:33,160 --> 02:46:34,480
Speaker 4: The galaxy isn't watching.

3196
02:46:34,600 --> 02:46:40,080
Speaker 2: No, it's not it's not. Oh I hate that chant.

3197
02:46:40,200 --> 02:46:44,199
Speaker 2: I hate that fucking Chance. It's very real. It's very real,

3198
02:46:44,360 --> 02:46:48,279
Speaker 2: right like this these guys right, yes, we get.

3199
02:46:48,280 --> 02:46:51,000
Speaker 11: We get like a real proper riot set up, right,

3200
02:46:51,080 --> 02:46:53,400
Speaker 11: like the last riot in and Or was on fer

3201
02:46:53,480 --> 02:46:55,160
Speaker 11: Ex Like that was like a funeral riot.

3202
02:46:55,320 --> 02:46:58,119
Speaker 2: Right, It's almost like some of the writers have seen kettles.

3203
02:46:59,400 --> 02:47:01,439
Speaker 7: It's great, it's crazy.

3204
02:47:01,520 --> 02:47:03,600
Speaker 11: And like this time like this is not like a

3205
02:47:03,720 --> 02:47:06,360
Speaker 11: morning ritual like like it was unfair, like this is

3206
02:47:06,480 --> 02:47:09,119
Speaker 11: this is this is a protest riot. There's there's signs,

3207
02:47:09,160 --> 02:47:13,240
Speaker 11: there's banners, there's fireworks, there's smoke, there's space molotovs, there's

3208
02:47:13,280 --> 02:47:17,240
Speaker 11: state affiliated news crews. There's tie fighters flying overhead like

3209
02:47:17,400 --> 02:47:19,080
Speaker 11: police copters and police drums.

3210
02:47:19,320 --> 02:47:20,040
Speaker 7: It's excellent.

3211
02:47:20,160 --> 02:47:22,680
Speaker 2: I got a little flashback of being buzzed by a

3212
02:47:22,760 --> 02:47:25,879
Speaker 2: police helicopter. It's standing rocks so close that it knocked

3213
02:47:25,920 --> 02:47:28,600
Speaker 2: my car off the road. That's what happened with the

3214
02:47:28,640 --> 02:47:30,080
Speaker 2: tie fighter. So good.

3215
02:47:30,160 --> 02:47:30,360
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3216
02:47:30,560 --> 02:47:33,080
Speaker 7: Yeah. And it's like like like right down to like

3217
02:47:33,280 --> 02:47:36,400
Speaker 7: just just like the micro dynamics of like how the

3218
02:47:36,520 --> 02:47:40,920
Speaker 7: crowd is interacting with the riot shields. It's like, oh shit.

3219
02:47:41,320 --> 02:47:43,800
Speaker 11: And I got the same not in my stomach when

3220
02:47:43,840 --> 02:47:46,080
Speaker 11: I can tell that it's about to go down. I

3221
02:47:46,160 --> 02:47:49,720
Speaker 11: get this the same not watching this like they really

3222
02:47:49,840 --> 02:47:50,560
Speaker 11: nailed It's.

3223
02:47:50,440 --> 02:47:52,000
Speaker 2: Great too, is it? With in the just in the

3224
02:47:52,040 --> 02:47:55,520
Speaker 2: face acting, but with Cassie and and with Wilman, you

3225
02:47:55,640 --> 02:47:58,640
Speaker 2: can see that they know they've been in this. They

3226
02:47:58,720 --> 02:48:02,480
Speaker 2: know Willman a spatlieh Okay, okay, okay, I know what's happening.

3227
02:48:03,360 --> 02:48:06,480
Speaker 7: I also really like that, okay, so okay. So the

3228
02:48:07,120 --> 02:48:09,600
Speaker 7: challenge that Gilroy has here is we have to introduce

3229
02:48:09,640 --> 02:48:13,360
Speaker 7: the concept of kettling to the average Star Wars watcher,

3230
02:48:13,800 --> 02:48:17,080
Speaker 7: and with the average Star Wars watcher. You can't be like, Okay,

3231
02:48:17,120 --> 02:48:18,760
Speaker 7: the police are going to form a wall. You have

3232
02:48:18,879 --> 02:48:22,400
Speaker 7: to physically make walls come in around the thing.

3233
02:48:22,840 --> 02:48:25,960
Speaker 2: Like some people have said that the Gorman mascer is

3234
02:48:26,040 --> 02:48:29,840
Speaker 2: very clearly inspired by what's happened in Palestine. These episodes

3235
02:48:30,120 --> 02:48:33,760
Speaker 2: I'm sure were informed by other massacres in Palestine, but

3236
02:48:33,879 --> 02:48:37,800
Speaker 2: these were written prior to the most current outbreak of

3237
02:48:38,040 --> 02:48:40,199
Speaker 2: really intense genocidal violence.

3238
02:48:40,080 --> 02:48:42,080
Speaker 7: In like twenty two.

3239
02:48:42,240 --> 02:48:46,920
Speaker 2: Probably again there were other similar massacres that occurred in Palestine.

3240
02:48:46,959 --> 02:48:49,240
Speaker 2: But also like this is very clearly patterned off of

3241
02:48:49,280 --> 02:48:53,680
Speaker 2: Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland. This is very clearly patterned

3242
02:48:53,760 --> 02:48:58,040
Speaker 2: off of I would argue my suspicion the Ombuitz massacre

3243
02:48:58,200 --> 02:49:00,240
Speaker 2: in India by the British government as well. Like I

3244
02:49:00,320 --> 02:49:02,200
Speaker 2: think that there are pieces of all of that in here.

3245
02:49:02,360 --> 02:49:04,920
Speaker 7: There's also elements that I heard friend of the show

3246
02:49:05,640 --> 02:49:08,560
Speaker 7: Emmy Who's Great, talking about, like the Tlata Laco massacre,

3247
02:49:08,600 --> 02:49:10,360
Speaker 7: which is like the massacre in nineteen sixty eight in

3248
02:49:10,400 --> 02:49:13,560
Speaker 7: a square in the middle of Mexico City, which is

3249
02:49:13,640 --> 02:49:15,760
Speaker 7: massacre where there's like these giant students sixty eight student

3250
02:49:15,800 --> 02:49:19,160
Speaker 7: protests are happening and they just like put snipers on

3251
02:49:19,160 --> 02:49:20,080
Speaker 7: the rears and shoot everyone.

3252
02:49:20,760 --> 02:49:21,119
Speaker 2: Mm hm.

3253
02:49:21,600 --> 02:49:24,880
Speaker 7: And I think so when I saw this, like I

3254
02:49:25,200 --> 02:49:27,200
Speaker 7: thought it was going to be a lot more of

3255
02:49:27,400 --> 02:49:30,840
Speaker 7: just like a straight massacre. Everyone dies and it kind

3256
02:49:30,840 --> 02:49:33,160
Speaker 7: of turns into a shootout, and I wasn't sure how

3257
02:49:33,280 --> 02:49:36,160
Speaker 7: that was going to play. Also, I think it is

3258
02:49:36,240 --> 02:49:39,080
Speaker 7: also worth remembering that, like also a lot of the

3259
02:49:39,120 --> 02:49:42,960
Speaker 7: sort of famous historical massacres aren't like some people do

3260
02:49:43,080 --> 02:49:45,520
Speaker 7: shoot back. Yes, because the thing at Tieneman, like some

3261
02:49:45,680 --> 02:49:47,200
Speaker 7: of the some of some of the students like take

3262
02:49:47,240 --> 02:49:50,080
Speaker 7: workers from soldiers that they fought and like shoot, Well, yeah,

3263
02:49:50,120 --> 02:49:51,960
Speaker 7: this is more of the workers. And by the time

3264
02:49:51,959 --> 02:49:53,360
Speaker 7: they get into the square with the students, like those

3265
02:49:53,400 --> 02:49:55,600
Speaker 7: people don't have gone. Some of the workers like try

3266
02:49:55,640 --> 02:49:58,640
Speaker 7: to fight back and just get massacred. But it seems

3267
02:49:58,680 --> 02:50:03,160
Speaker 7: to have been really effective. Yeah, And just like conveying that, like, yeah,

3268
02:50:03,280 --> 02:50:05,200
Speaker 7: this shit happens constantly.

3269
02:50:05,280 --> 02:50:07,680
Speaker 2: It happened in my dawn too. Write where you have

3270
02:50:08,080 --> 02:50:11,920
Speaker 2: you know, both you have Berkut snipers shooting and killing

3271
02:50:12,000 --> 02:50:16,680
Speaker 2: protesters and you have protesters firing back from behind the barricades. Yeah.

3272
02:50:17,360 --> 02:50:20,080
Speaker 11: I really liked the singing the gorba national anthem as

3273
02:50:20,120 --> 02:50:23,480
Speaker 11: a way to like, yeah, stop the chanting, which is

3274
02:50:23,560 --> 02:50:26,920
Speaker 11: like calling towards you know, like we're safe because the

3275
02:50:27,000 --> 02:50:29,600
Speaker 11: galaxy's watching us. And like the guy who starts to

3276
02:50:29,720 --> 02:50:32,160
Speaker 11: the song realizes, like that maybe that's not true, and

3277
02:50:32,320 --> 02:50:36,880
Speaker 11: instead the song like unites people in like national solidarity

3278
02:50:36,959 --> 02:50:39,280
Speaker 11: to prepare them for what's about to happen, instead of

3279
02:50:39,360 --> 02:50:41,600
Speaker 11: like gesturing outwards at like this at like you know

3280
02:50:41,800 --> 02:50:45,000
Speaker 11: those those off planet watching this, and that ensures our safety,

3281
02:50:45,040 --> 02:50:47,360
Speaker 11: Like no, our safety is from like each other. And

3282
02:50:47,440 --> 02:50:48,960
Speaker 11: the fact that yeah, so many of them do fire

3283
02:50:49,080 --> 02:50:50,600
Speaker 11: back and like it is it. They do not like

3284
02:50:50,680 --> 02:50:53,320
Speaker 11: lose their agency, and it doesn't like make this less

3285
02:50:53,360 --> 02:50:54,000
Speaker 11: of a massacre.

3286
02:50:54,320 --> 02:50:55,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's another example.

3287
02:50:55,280 --> 02:50:57,200
Speaker 7: This is like the Red Summer, which is like a

3288
02:50:57,240 --> 02:50:59,640
Speaker 7: whole bunch of like anti anti black race riots and

3289
02:50:59,800 --> 02:51:02,400
Speaker 7: you and it's it's not what he thinks. It's like, yeah,

3290
02:51:02,400 --> 02:51:05,800
Speaker 7: it's remembered as like a bunch of white supremacists just

3291
02:51:06,080 --> 02:51:07,119
Speaker 7: murdered a bunch of black people.

3292
02:51:07,160 --> 02:51:07,640
Speaker 2: And that's true.

3293
02:51:07,640 --> 02:51:10,640
Speaker 7: But also people fought back, like people had guns, people

3294
02:51:10,680 --> 02:51:14,640
Speaker 7: fought back, people resisted them, and you know a lot

3295
02:51:14,680 --> 02:51:18,000
Speaker 7: of people fucking died. And also people in these situations

3296
02:51:18,040 --> 02:51:21,000
Speaker 7: fight back and it's good. The last thing I want

3297
02:51:21,040 --> 02:51:23,840
Speaker 7: to discuss in this last section is the based hotel

3298
02:51:24,000 --> 02:51:25,520
Speaker 7: porter who throws that.

3299
02:51:25,680 --> 02:51:30,360
Speaker 2: Bob my god. Oh yeah, and again, yeah, we are

3300
02:51:30,520 --> 02:51:33,040
Speaker 2: learning he already knows clearly he knows who he is.

3301
02:51:33,200 --> 02:51:35,160
Speaker 2: He never has any question about that. But we don't

3302
02:51:35,200 --> 02:51:38,520
Speaker 2: know who he is. Cassian doesn't fully until he's like, yeah,

3303
02:51:38,520 --> 02:51:40,800
Speaker 2: I wiped you from the system, bro, get out of here, right.

3304
02:51:40,840 --> 02:51:42,880
Speaker 7: So that's what we're talking about, yeah, is this is

3305
02:51:42,920 --> 02:51:43,800
Speaker 7: this base hotel porter.

3306
02:51:43,879 --> 02:51:46,360
Speaker 11: And also that the way the way Cassian works as

3307
02:51:46,360 --> 02:51:48,800
Speaker 11: a spy is different from the way that other like

3308
02:51:48,959 --> 02:51:52,160
Speaker 11: Luther and operatives do. Like Cassian gets to know this

3309
02:51:52,320 --> 02:51:55,080
Speaker 11: guy in the previous arc of episodes when he's when

3310
02:51:55,120 --> 02:51:57,560
Speaker 11: he's like going to like survey the Gorman Front like

3311
02:51:57,640 --> 02:51:59,840
Speaker 11: a year ago, and he gets into a conversation with

3312
02:52:00,120 --> 02:52:02,800
Speaker 11: hotel porter who was at like the Tarkan massacre and

3313
02:52:03,120 --> 02:52:04,480
Speaker 11: was like was there when there was like five hunch

3314
02:52:04,520 --> 02:52:07,359
Speaker 11: people died and like and and his dad died protecting

3315
02:52:07,440 --> 02:52:11,000
Speaker 11: him like like andor like converses with him in his

3316
02:52:11,560 --> 02:52:13,640
Speaker 11: in his hotel room to like learn about like the

3317
02:52:13,760 --> 02:52:16,039
Speaker 11: local people and to like learn about the actual history

3318
02:52:16,400 --> 02:52:18,920
Speaker 11: from like a regular guy who experienced it. And this

3319
02:52:19,040 --> 02:52:21,000
Speaker 11: isn't something that like vell and sint to really do.

3320
02:52:21,160 --> 02:52:23,280
Speaker 11: This isn't something that that Luthen really does like like

3321
02:52:23,440 --> 02:52:26,879
Speaker 11: and Or has a connection or like and Or values

3322
02:52:26,959 --> 02:52:30,279
Speaker 11: making connections with just like the regular people and wherever

3323
02:52:30,360 --> 02:52:33,760
Speaker 11: he's operating, and this this always like trans outs to

3324
02:52:33,840 --> 02:52:35,680
Speaker 11: help and Or in the long run, even if he

3325
02:52:35,720 --> 02:52:38,959
Speaker 11: doesn't really know it in like the immediate because when

3326
02:52:39,000 --> 02:52:41,959
Speaker 11: Andor comes back a year later under a different name

3327
02:52:42,040 --> 02:52:45,560
Speaker 11: with a different job, the hotel porter recognizes him and

3328
02:52:45,800 --> 02:52:47,160
Speaker 11: is like, I got you, buddy.

3329
02:52:47,600 --> 02:52:48,160
Speaker 7: I I.

3330
02:52:49,640 --> 02:52:52,960
Speaker 11: Know that you're up to something and I will protect you,

3331
02:52:53,240 --> 02:52:56,440
Speaker 11: like where we are in this together, Like I recognize you,

3332
02:52:56,879 --> 02:52:59,760
Speaker 11: and I like value you, and that is what like

3333
02:53:00,200 --> 02:53:02,360
Speaker 11: helps helps and Or like in this episode.

3334
02:53:02,840 --> 02:53:05,720
Speaker 7: And then also the grenades that he throws is you

3335
02:53:05,800 --> 02:53:06,879
Speaker 7: know cool, uh.

3336
02:53:07,800 --> 02:53:10,440
Speaker 2: And there's there's a beautiful and Or's last line to

3337
02:53:10,520 --> 02:53:13,000
Speaker 2: this kid is I hope things work out for you.

3338
02:53:13,800 --> 02:53:17,200
Speaker 2: And the last thing we see that kid do is

3339
02:53:17,480 --> 02:53:20,040
Speaker 2: detonate a bomb to kill himself and a bunch of

3340
02:53:20,120 --> 02:53:20,720
Speaker 2: other people.

3341
02:53:20,959 --> 02:53:22,400
Speaker 7: Rebellions are built on hope.

3342
02:53:22,840 --> 02:53:25,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And he tells him rebellions are built on hope,

3343
02:53:25,720 --> 02:53:27,520
Speaker 2: which is where we get that line from Rogue one.

3344
02:53:27,800 --> 02:53:29,879
Speaker 11: I like that Sam, the guy with two m's who

3345
02:53:30,360 --> 02:53:32,680
Speaker 11: killed Sinta last Dark is still in the fight and

3346
02:53:32,800 --> 02:53:35,480
Speaker 11: is killing imperials. He is, yes, he is killing them

3347
02:53:35,520 --> 02:53:37,480
Speaker 11: in the name of Sinta. He is, he is showing up.

3348
02:53:37,520 --> 02:53:40,520
Speaker 2: He is real and he he he again. He learns

3349
02:53:40,600 --> 02:53:43,120
Speaker 2: who he is in this episode, right, like he's not

3350
02:53:43,320 --> 02:53:45,680
Speaker 2: just a fuck up. He rams a truck into that

3351
02:53:46,360 --> 02:53:49,920
Speaker 2: K two unit and save save Cassio, save, saves the

3352
02:53:49,959 --> 02:53:53,400
Speaker 2: whole day. And yes, he learns Rellion too. Yeah, he

3353
02:53:53,520 --> 02:53:53,920
Speaker 2: learns who.

3354
02:53:53,959 --> 02:53:56,320
Speaker 11: I feel like that everything good that happens to Cassiod

3355
02:53:56,560 --> 02:53:59,080
Speaker 11: all the people who do it are like in part

3356
02:53:59,280 --> 02:54:01,800
Speaker 11: like a responsible for the destruction out of the Death Star,

3357
02:54:01,840 --> 02:54:04,320
Speaker 11: which shows how like the butterfly effect works.

3358
02:54:04,120 --> 02:54:04,920
Speaker 7: In a really fun way.

3359
02:54:05,240 --> 02:54:08,840
Speaker 11: Yeah, and like like a good luth and operative casting

3360
02:54:08,959 --> 02:54:12,120
Speaker 11: and takes K two to get reprogrammed. But like this,

3361
02:54:12,280 --> 02:54:14,560
Speaker 11: this episode like ends on this on this Gorman cry

3362
02:54:14,640 --> 02:54:18,320
Speaker 11: for help, this like final broadcast done by Wilman's French

3363
02:54:18,440 --> 02:54:21,920
Speaker 11: GF and I I was legitimately tearing up at this.

3364
02:54:22,440 --> 02:54:25,200
Speaker 11: Uh it got to me and or starts tearing up,

3365
02:54:25,320 --> 02:54:28,000
Speaker 11: but like it's it, It really got to me. And

3366
02:54:28,080 --> 02:54:30,000
Speaker 11: then like we zoom out of Gorman and you can

3367
02:54:30,080 --> 02:54:34,279
Speaker 11: see like how unnatural the imperial like tower is above

3368
02:54:34,440 --> 02:54:37,200
Speaker 11: like the regular Palomo skyline with lit's like you know,

3369
02:54:37,400 --> 02:54:40,760
Speaker 11: historical architecture that you have this like just just like

3370
02:54:41,120 --> 02:54:45,840
Speaker 11: hideous like imperial it like citadel, like casting a dark

3371
02:54:45,920 --> 02:54:48,560
Speaker 11: shadow over the town. And then we we cut to

3372
02:54:48,640 --> 02:54:51,960
Speaker 11: Cyril's mom crying watching Fox News where they're talking about

3373
02:54:52,000 --> 02:54:56,160
Speaker 11: how outside rebel assistance helped the Gorman front and they question,

3374
02:54:56,560 --> 02:54:59,440
Speaker 11: what's the price will pay for our own safety? And

3375
02:54:59,560 --> 02:55:00,880
Speaker 11: that's how the episode ends.

3376
02:55:02,920 --> 02:55:03,560
Speaker 7: What aisode?

3377
02:55:03,959 --> 02:55:04,640
Speaker 2: What aisode?

3378
02:55:05,240 --> 02:55:07,240
Speaker 11: All right, we'll go on a break and then come

3379
02:55:07,320 --> 02:55:10,320
Speaker 11: back to briefly discuss this last episode, which is also

3380
02:55:10,400 --> 02:55:10,760
Speaker 11: quite good.

3381
02:55:20,800 --> 02:55:23,280
Speaker 7: Okay, we're back. Episode nine.

3382
02:55:23,640 --> 02:55:27,440
Speaker 11: Welcome to the Rebellion Clone wars heads are feasting so

3383
02:55:27,600 --> 02:55:32,240
Speaker 11: much Senate very fun. So on Corussant, fake news spreads

3384
02:55:32,240 --> 02:55:34,880
Speaker 11: about what has happened on Gorman and the Gorman senator

3385
02:55:35,000 --> 02:55:39,199
Speaker 11: is arrested with no warrant and no charges. Mad Mathma

3386
02:55:39,280 --> 02:55:41,320
Speaker 11: plans to make a final speech in the Senate and

3387
02:55:41,400 --> 02:55:44,800
Speaker 11: then leave Coroissant with bail. Organa to lead the rebel

3388
02:55:44,840 --> 02:55:48,720
Speaker 11: alliance on Yavin, but Senator Organa doesn't want to leave yet.

3389
02:55:49,400 --> 02:55:51,880
Speaker 11: He wants to stay and buy time for Yavin to

3390
02:55:51,920 --> 02:55:54,640
Speaker 11: get fully up and running, but he advises Mon to

3391
02:55:54,720 --> 02:55:57,640
Speaker 11: go through with the speech and offers an extraction team

3392
02:55:58,000 --> 02:56:01,320
Speaker 11: to help her get off Corussant. While writing her speech,

3393
02:56:01,400 --> 02:56:04,280
Speaker 11: Man Mathma is the Senate aid Erskine finds an ISD

3394
02:56:04,440 --> 02:56:07,640
Speaker 11: listening device in her office. She goes outside to practice

3395
02:56:07,680 --> 02:56:10,960
Speaker 11: the speech while Erskine continues to search for more bugs.

3396
02:56:11,520 --> 02:56:14,840
Speaker 11: Waiting outside for Man is Luthan, who tells her that

3397
02:56:15,080 --> 02:56:18,480
Speaker 11: Erskine's been secretly working for him for two years and

3398
02:56:18,879 --> 02:56:24,199
Speaker 11: that Bail's extraction team is somehow corrupted. Man grows upset

3399
02:56:24,400 --> 02:56:27,920
Speaker 11: at Luthan's deceptions and secrets and is unsure of who

3400
02:56:28,040 --> 02:56:31,040
Speaker 11: to trust, but Luthan says that he is sending a

3401
02:56:31,240 --> 02:56:36,480
Speaker 11: highly trusted operative as an alternative extraction plan. Cassian, still

3402
02:56:36,560 --> 02:56:40,360
Speaker 11: undercover as a conflict journalist, agrees to escort Manmathma as

3403
02:56:40,440 --> 02:56:44,480
Speaker 11: his last job for the rebellion. Other senators mourned the

3404
02:56:44,680 --> 02:56:49,160
Speaker 11: Imperial martyrs slain by the Savage Gormans before Bail. Organa

3405
02:56:49,400 --> 02:56:52,400
Speaker 11: invokes a Senate article to hand the Florida Monmothma, where

3406
02:56:52,480 --> 02:56:55,880
Speaker 11: she gives her speech calling what's happened on Gorman a

3407
02:56:56,000 --> 02:57:00,920
Speaker 11: genocide and labels Emperor Palpatine a monster that, empowered by

3408
02:57:00,920 --> 02:57:05,760
Speaker 11: the Senate, has hijacked the truth and reality. The ICB

3409
02:57:05,959 --> 02:57:08,760
Speaker 11: orders to shut down the Senate feed and detain Senator Mathma,

3410
02:57:09,160 --> 02:57:12,240
Speaker 11: but as Mon exits the Senate chamber, Cassian is waiting

3411
02:57:12,280 --> 02:57:16,199
Speaker 11: outside as Lucan suspected one of Bail's extraction team members

3412
02:57:16,520 --> 02:57:19,240
Speaker 11: is an ISB double agent, and kills another one of

3413
02:57:19,320 --> 02:57:23,080
Speaker 11: Baile's operatives once they're found out. The undercover ICB agent

3414
02:57:23,160 --> 02:57:26,520
Speaker 11: tries to arrest Mon but is killed by Erskine and Cassian.

3415
02:57:27,040 --> 02:57:29,280
Speaker 11: Man helps navigate through the Senate building as it's put

3416
02:57:29,280 --> 02:57:32,920
Speaker 11: into lockdown, eventually reaching her vehicle outside, where Cassian kills

3417
02:57:32,959 --> 02:57:35,560
Speaker 11: her driver, Chlorus, who's also an ISOB plant.

3418
02:57:36,080 --> 02:57:39,000
Speaker 2: Well was maybe we'll talk about that, yeah.

3419
02:57:39,240 --> 02:57:42,840
Speaker 11: Cassian takes Wilman to Yavin for medical attention while Gold

3420
02:57:42,920 --> 02:57:46,920
Speaker 11: Squadron finishes Man's escort to the rebel base back on Base,

3421
02:57:47,360 --> 02:57:52,400
Speaker 11: Bix breaks up with Cassian via snapchat message and leaves

3422
02:57:52,520 --> 02:57:55,760
Speaker 11: Yavin to fight for the rebellion elsewhere and to keep

3423
02:57:55,840 --> 02:58:00,480
Speaker 11: Cassian on Yavin, and later that day rebel and engineers

3424
02:58:00,560 --> 02:58:05,920
Speaker 11: reprogram these salvaged k extroid. Okay, this episode has a

3425
02:58:05,959 --> 02:58:08,640
Speaker 11: lot of a lot of politics, A lot of politicking, Yeah,

3426
02:58:08,640 --> 02:58:10,879
Speaker 11: a lot a lot of capital Senate stuff.

3427
02:58:11,480 --> 02:58:15,280
Speaker 2: I want to read a little bit from monmothmaus speech here. Sure,

3428
02:58:15,720 --> 02:58:18,680
Speaker 2: what I think is kind of the nut of it here,

3429
02:58:19,280 --> 02:58:21,560
Speaker 2: I believe we are in a crisis. The distance between

3430
02:58:21,600 --> 02:58:23,320
Speaker 2: what is said and what is known to be true

3431
02:58:23,360 --> 02:58:25,520
Speaker 2: has become an abyss. Of all the things at risk,

3432
02:58:25,640 --> 02:58:28,640
Speaker 2: the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.

3433
02:58:29,120 --> 02:58:31,400
Speaker 2: The death of truth is the ultimate victory of evil.

3434
02:58:31,480 --> 02:58:33,680
Speaker 2: When truth leaves us, when we let it slip away,

3435
02:58:33,760 --> 02:58:36,439
Speaker 2: when it is ripped from our hands, we become vulnerable

3436
02:58:36,480 --> 02:58:39,320
Speaker 2: to the appetite of whatever monster screams the loudest.

3437
02:58:40,240 --> 02:58:44,480
Speaker 11: Uh boy, it's a little orange man bad. But hey,

3438
02:58:44,560 --> 02:58:45,959
Speaker 11: the Orange Man is bad.

3439
02:58:47,240 --> 02:58:50,279
Speaker 2: It's not just orange. It's making a broader, more historical

3440
02:58:50,360 --> 02:58:54,240
Speaker 2: point that totally yes. The reason all of this works.

3441
02:58:54,320 --> 02:58:57,280
Speaker 2: By destroying any kind of shared concept of reality, you

3442
02:58:57,400 --> 02:58:59,600
Speaker 2: can get people to If you can get people to

3443
02:58:59,680 --> 02:59:02,600
Speaker 2: believe absurdities, you can get them to commit atrocities.

3444
02:59:02,920 --> 02:59:05,160
Speaker 7: Right, I mean, this is this is what like the

3445
02:59:05,280 --> 02:59:06,400
Speaker 7: Nazis understood as well.

3446
02:59:07,160 --> 02:59:11,080
Speaker 2: Yes, and I love that speech. I think it's really

3447
02:59:11,320 --> 02:59:13,080
Speaker 2: one of one of my favorite bits of this is

3448
02:59:13,120 --> 02:59:15,800
Speaker 2: that it continues to show the degree to which, as

3449
02:59:15,840 --> 02:59:20,480
Speaker 2: in Nimic's Manifesto, tiny spontaneous individual acts of rebellion are

3450
02:59:20,520 --> 02:59:23,000
Speaker 2: constantly occurring and are a key part of the movement

3451
02:59:23,040 --> 02:59:26,000
Speaker 2: even when they're not organized. Mathma only gets through her

3452
02:59:26,080 --> 02:59:28,959
Speaker 2: speech and maybe only lives because a team of door

3453
02:59:29,040 --> 02:59:32,119
Speaker 2: repair guys who do not appear to be anyone's secret

3454
02:59:32,200 --> 02:59:35,480
Speaker 2: agents just fuck up purposefully at their job, like we

3455
02:59:35,520 --> 02:59:37,440
Speaker 2: can't get in I don't know, man, we can't get

3456
02:59:37,440 --> 02:59:39,360
Speaker 2: into the fucking thing, Like you're gonna have to wait.

3457
02:59:39,440 --> 02:59:41,800
Speaker 2: We're still working on this. Yeah, and it's kind of

3458
02:59:41,840 --> 02:59:46,640
Speaker 2: inferred that, like it's it's weaponized incompetence, right, And I

3459
02:59:46,760 --> 02:59:50,280
Speaker 2: really appreciate that bit. We have a showdown with her

3460
02:59:50,320 --> 02:59:53,160
Speaker 2: and her driver because she becomes aware before her speech

3461
02:59:53,240 --> 02:59:54,960
Speaker 2: that her driver, who she's been taking in as a

3462
02:59:55,040 --> 02:59:57,320
Speaker 2: confidant in the last couple episodes.

3463
02:59:57,080 --> 02:59:59,600
Speaker 11: Well no, no, no, no, like her driver, she's known

3464
02:59:59,640 --> 03:00:02,800
Speaker 11: her driver, Chlorus has been like isb for like two seasons.

3465
03:00:03,720 --> 03:00:06,000
Speaker 2: This is a different driver. I think than first this

3466
03:00:06,080 --> 03:00:08,680
Speaker 2: is the same driver, because she's been talking. She's been

3467
03:00:08,760 --> 03:00:10,720
Speaker 2: talking to Chloris a couple of times. She makes a

3468
03:00:10,760 --> 03:00:12,080
Speaker 2: comment about that this one hurts.

3469
03:00:12,520 --> 03:00:15,800
Speaker 11: She's been talking to like Erskine, like, oh shit, yeah,

3470
03:00:16,160 --> 03:00:18,400
Speaker 11: she's she's been getting closer to like her state aid.

3471
03:00:18,720 --> 03:00:20,640
Speaker 11: Chlorus has always been like a dipshit who they've kept

3472
03:00:20,680 --> 03:00:23,200
Speaker 11: around because he's like kind of bad at his job.

3473
03:00:23,800 --> 03:00:27,600
Speaker 11: He is bad at being an ISB, like like paid informant,

3474
03:00:27,720 --> 03:00:30,040
Speaker 11: so they like keep him around even though they know

3475
03:00:30,120 --> 03:00:31,200
Speaker 11: he's reporting to ISB.

3476
03:00:31,680 --> 03:00:33,720
Speaker 2: There's a little bit of an insinuation with him looking

3477
03:00:33,760 --> 03:00:36,600
Speaker 2: at his gun and listening to her that maybe he's

3478
03:00:36,680 --> 03:00:39,280
Speaker 2: rethinking things. But again, we never get the chance to

3479
03:00:39,320 --> 03:00:40,280
Speaker 2: see that because Cassie and.

3480
03:00:40,640 --> 03:00:42,040
Speaker 7: I think he's like thinking about if he's gonna have

3481
03:00:42,160 --> 03:00:44,040
Speaker 7: like a rest or shoot her. Yeah, that was my

3482
03:00:44,120 --> 03:00:44,560
Speaker 7: bread on it.

3483
03:00:44,680 --> 03:00:46,760
Speaker 2: I think he's making up his mind about what he's

3484
03:00:46,800 --> 03:00:49,280
Speaker 2: gonna do. And I don't think we actually see that,

3485
03:00:49,640 --> 03:00:51,480
Speaker 2: but I mean I think it's open to interpretation.

3486
03:00:51,720 --> 03:00:55,199
Speaker 7: Yeah, because Cassian domes his little because little.

3487
03:00:54,959 --> 03:00:57,760
Speaker 2: Thus has and does not take chances like that, he

3488
03:00:58,120 --> 03:00:59,240
Speaker 2: does not take chances.

3489
03:00:59,520 --> 03:01:03,320
Speaker 11: And also Cassian employs great tactics in asking Man what

3490
03:01:03,440 --> 03:01:06,000
Speaker 11: his name is first to engage him in conversation, to

3491
03:01:06,040 --> 03:01:08,080
Speaker 11: distract him enough to like totally surprise him.

3492
03:01:09,000 --> 03:01:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, very good. I also I like the one of

3493
03:01:11,879 --> 03:01:14,680
Speaker 2: the kind of it's not stated directly, but like Lannie,

3494
03:01:14,800 --> 03:01:19,000
Speaker 2: the Imperial deep cover agent within the ISB, is the

3495
03:01:19,120 --> 03:01:22,959
Speaker 2: guy who put these people there, particularly the incompetent ISB

3496
03:01:23,080 --> 03:01:25,320
Speaker 2: agent who Cassian first shoots the lady, the.

3497
03:01:25,360 --> 03:01:28,720
Speaker 11: Person who's infiltrated Man's team a Baile's team. Yeah, Like,

3498
03:01:29,040 --> 03:01:31,520
Speaker 11: the reason why Luthan knows that there's something wrong with

3499
03:01:31,640 --> 03:01:34,600
Speaker 11: Bail's team is because the agent that has that has

3500
03:01:34,680 --> 03:01:39,200
Speaker 11: infiltrated like Baile's network is one of Lonnie's agents. So

3501
03:01:39,440 --> 03:01:42,840
Speaker 11: Lonnie was able to get word to Luthan that there

3502
03:01:42,879 --> 03:01:46,080
Speaker 11: could be a problem with with Baile's extraction team and

3503
03:01:46,240 --> 03:01:49,600
Speaker 11: that's what that's what helps helps get mont Yavin safely.

3504
03:01:50,160 --> 03:01:50,360
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3505
03:01:50,640 --> 03:01:52,840
Speaker 2: And it's just kind of more confirmation of the value

3506
03:01:52,920 --> 03:01:55,600
Speaker 2: of Lannie of yeah, having him there and how he

3507
03:01:55,720 --> 03:01:59,640
Speaker 2: how much he was worth the sacrifice of Ando Krieger

3508
03:01:59,680 --> 03:02:01,400
Speaker 2: and his rebels and season.

3509
03:02:01,120 --> 03:02:05,240
Speaker 11: One Nonnie Lonnie is mvp uh. Like a lot of

3510
03:02:05,280 --> 03:02:09,200
Speaker 11: this episode is kind of showing how much Luthen's accelerationist

3511
03:02:09,280 --> 03:02:11,720
Speaker 11: project has kind of succeeded, like like how much he's

3512
03:02:11,800 --> 03:02:14,240
Speaker 11: he's in somewhat set up Gorman or at least like

3513
03:02:14,320 --> 03:02:17,560
Speaker 11: fed the fire of Gorman slightly to create this political

3514
03:02:17,640 --> 03:02:20,680
Speaker 11: crisis to further his like accelerationist goal of creating this

3515
03:02:20,800 --> 03:02:23,200
Speaker 11: like big conflict, and like we see some of that

3516
03:02:23,840 --> 03:02:26,720
Speaker 11: start to work out, even though Luthen himself is like

3517
03:02:26,840 --> 03:02:28,920
Speaker 11: having a much harder time and the kind of the

3518
03:02:29,160 --> 03:02:31,400
Speaker 11: house of cards he's built is starting to crumble and

3519
03:02:31,520 --> 03:02:33,440
Speaker 11: he's probably not gonna be able to work with many

3520
03:02:33,520 --> 03:02:35,279
Speaker 11: people for for very much longer.

3521
03:02:35,800 --> 03:02:37,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, And that's like that That's the other thing I

3522
03:02:37,440 --> 03:02:39,240
Speaker 7: want to mention about this episode about the way Luthen

3523
03:02:39,280 --> 03:02:42,040
Speaker 7: operates is that because the way Luthen operates is by

3524
03:02:42,120 --> 03:02:45,000
Speaker 7: fucking not telling anyone anything and by manipulating people and

3525
03:02:45,040 --> 03:02:47,440
Speaker 7: by spying on them, and by like having this whole

3526
03:02:47,480 --> 03:02:49,480
Speaker 7: network of double agents and like people who doesn't like

3527
03:02:50,040 --> 03:02:52,160
Speaker 7: the problem with operating like that, And this is the

3528
03:02:52,200 --> 03:02:54,680
Speaker 7: problem that he's running into here is like mon Mathma

3529
03:02:54,879 --> 03:02:57,360
Speaker 7: does not fucking trust him because the thing that she

3530
03:02:57,560 --> 03:02:59,800
Speaker 7: learned when Luthen comes to tell her like, hey, the

3531
03:03:00,080 --> 03:03:02,320
Speaker 7: the you can't go with Bail's team. Yeah, Baile's team

3532
03:03:02,360 --> 03:03:04,520
Speaker 7: is going to kill you. She's like, you fucking this.

3533
03:03:04,800 --> 03:03:07,440
Speaker 7: You've had my own aids spying on me for two

3534
03:03:08,560 --> 03:03:12,000
Speaker 7: what the fuck? Yeah, Like it's like like this this

3535
03:03:12,120 --> 03:03:14,280
Speaker 7: is like a persistent problem with the like and you

3536
03:03:14,400 --> 03:03:17,360
Speaker 7: start to see this, have have we surround have we

3537
03:03:17,440 --> 03:03:19,400
Speaker 7: seen Vell like not working with him anymore?

3538
03:03:19,879 --> 03:03:22,560
Speaker 2: I think we have in these episodes, uh Vell does

3539
03:03:22,640 --> 03:03:24,480
Speaker 2: not seem to be working with him anymore. She's more

3540
03:03:24,560 --> 03:03:27,520
Speaker 2: or less completely gone in on the actual like military

3541
03:03:27,600 --> 03:03:28,359
Speaker 2: part of the alliance.

3542
03:03:28,879 --> 03:03:31,040
Speaker 7: Yeah then yeah, well and this and this is the

3543
03:03:31,160 --> 03:03:32,560
Speaker 7: this is the thing about this is like you get

3544
03:03:32,640 --> 03:03:35,280
Speaker 7: to watch every walking away from You get to watch

3545
03:03:35,280 --> 03:03:37,800
Speaker 7: everyone who Luthen had worked everyone walks away with him

3546
03:03:37,800 --> 03:03:40,800
Speaker 7: because they're like this guy keeps being an asshole and

3547
03:03:40,879 --> 03:03:43,200
Speaker 7: he keeps hiding things with people, and he keeps manipulating everyone,

3548
03:03:43,520 --> 03:03:45,520
Speaker 7: and it's like it's like he's doing and this is

3549
03:03:45,640 --> 03:03:47,480
Speaker 7: this is like also this is a kind of person

3550
03:03:48,360 --> 03:03:49,920
Speaker 7: also that you run into where it's like they're doing

3551
03:03:49,959 --> 03:03:53,119
Speaker 7: really important work and also interpersonally they're impossible to fucking

3552
03:03:53,160 --> 03:03:56,360
Speaker 7: work with and like like and you can you can

3553
03:03:56,400 --> 03:04:00,280
Speaker 7: watch it even emulate with this having like real political gratifications. Yeah,

3554
03:04:00,360 --> 03:04:02,040
Speaker 7: where it's just like, no, this guy has been just

3555
03:04:02,120 --> 03:04:04,920
Speaker 7: like jerking her chain around and like lying to us

3556
03:04:04,959 --> 03:04:07,400
Speaker 7: and manipulating us for so long that all of the

3557
03:04:07,520 --> 03:04:11,400
Speaker 7: relationships that he needs are breaking down and it's no

3558
03:04:11,480 --> 03:04:13,840
Speaker 7: longer a position where because he's the guy with the

3559
03:04:13,879 --> 03:04:15,760
Speaker 7: money in the arms and the coordination, everyone has to

3560
03:04:15,800 --> 03:04:17,360
Speaker 7: work with him. They now have a choice to like

3561
03:04:17,959 --> 03:04:21,680
Speaker 7: go do literally anything else, and everyone keeps walking away,

3562
03:04:21,720 --> 03:04:24,800
Speaker 7: and it like almost gets mon Mathama killed because she's

3563
03:04:25,000 --> 03:04:27,040
Speaker 7: so pissed at him that he's been like spy having

3564
03:04:27,120 --> 03:04:27,920
Speaker 7: her spye.

3565
03:04:27,640 --> 03:04:31,800
Speaker 11: On, but it it also saves her, Like it's it's

3566
03:04:31,879 --> 03:04:34,039
Speaker 11: it's it's a double right.

3567
03:04:34,240 --> 03:04:37,320
Speaker 7: It does seem distrust with Mon, but it also.

3568
03:04:37,280 --> 03:04:40,120
Speaker 2: Is what God because it is it is him who

3569
03:04:40,240 --> 03:04:43,160
Speaker 2: gets Mom out. Yeah, and it's it's like it's just

3570
03:04:43,200 --> 03:04:44,240
Speaker 2: this like really messy.

3571
03:04:44,440 --> 03:04:46,080
Speaker 7: That's what makes them a good character is that he

3572
03:04:46,200 --> 03:04:48,160
Speaker 7: is both like he understands who he is.

3573
03:04:48,760 --> 03:04:51,920
Speaker 11: He's like fucked up and morally compromised and is obviously

3574
03:04:52,080 --> 03:04:56,760
Speaker 11: hashtag problematic, but it's also completely necessary within the plot

3575
03:04:56,800 --> 03:05:00,160
Speaker 11: that they've created. Yeah, and like somewhat defensible and like

3576
03:05:00,240 --> 03:05:02,600
Speaker 11: he knows that he's like fucked, Like he he says,

3577
03:05:02,720 --> 03:05:03,640
Speaker 11: like there's.

3578
03:05:03,520 --> 03:05:04,360
Speaker 7: No Yavin for me.

3579
03:05:04,959 --> 03:05:06,600
Speaker 11: I'm not going to have and I'm never going to

3580
03:05:06,640 --> 03:05:08,600
Speaker 11: see the sunrise, Like that's not what my role is.

3581
03:05:08,680 --> 03:05:12,000
Speaker 11: I have to be the asshole here, and yeah, it sucks.

3582
03:05:12,040 --> 03:05:14,360
Speaker 11: And we start to see like his fake Luthen like

3583
03:05:14,480 --> 03:05:16,760
Speaker 11: gallery persona is starting to collapse here too, Like yeah,

3584
03:05:17,120 --> 03:05:19,040
Speaker 11: this whole episode, he's not in his like wag, He's

3585
03:05:19,080 --> 03:05:21,680
Speaker 11: not in his like fancy clothes. He is like insurgent

3586
03:05:21,760 --> 03:05:25,360
Speaker 11: Luthen Like this, this this role that he's he's cultivated

3587
03:05:25,360 --> 03:05:27,960
Speaker 11: these past few years is no longer needed and it

3588
03:05:28,040 --> 03:05:30,960
Speaker 11: does have negative consequences. Yeah, Mon is not trusting him

3589
03:05:31,480 --> 03:05:33,160
Speaker 11: in this moment where she kind of really has to.

3590
03:05:33,840 --> 03:05:35,840
Speaker 11: Like Mon thinks that Luthan might just be trying to

3591
03:05:35,920 --> 03:05:38,680
Speaker 11: like protect himself, that Luthen might not actually care about

3592
03:05:38,720 --> 03:05:41,680
Speaker 11: Mont's own safety Cassie and is tired of always being

3593
03:05:41,720 --> 03:05:44,040
Speaker 11: a tool for someone else and is dealing with trauma

3594
03:05:44,480 --> 03:05:47,800
Speaker 11: and burnout and Erskine's just caught in the middle of

3595
03:05:47,879 --> 03:05:52,040
Speaker 11: this hole, this this whole ship storm and yeah, this

3596
03:05:52,160 --> 03:05:53,400
Speaker 11: is this is what makes it compelling.

3597
03:05:53,480 --> 03:05:58,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, it's just good character writing. We've

3598
03:05:58,120 --> 03:06:00,560
Speaker 7: all been bent by secrecy, is what he says.

3599
03:06:01,200 --> 03:06:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and by God he has. And there's there's

3600
03:06:05,320 --> 03:06:07,680
Speaker 2: a couple of really good moments in this that I

3601
03:06:08,320 --> 03:06:11,440
Speaker 2: don't want to skip over. There's the next Year in

3602
03:06:11,840 --> 03:06:16,039
Speaker 2: Next Year in Yavin moment between mon Mathma and Bail Arghana,

3603
03:06:16,480 --> 03:06:21,440
Speaker 2: which I saw someone on Twitter decree to be Zionist propaganda.

3604
03:06:22,080 --> 03:06:25,360
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, like that that is definitely based on next

3605
03:06:25,440 --> 03:06:27,680
Speaker 2: Year in Jerusalem, a term that has been in use

3606
03:06:27,800 --> 03:06:30,680
Speaker 2: for like way more than half of a millennia. That is,

3607
03:06:31,200 --> 03:06:34,959
Speaker 2: has nothing to do with Zionism. You're just being racist,

3608
03:06:35,040 --> 03:06:38,160
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. And it's a nice like it's a I think,

3609
03:06:38,200 --> 03:06:41,200
Speaker 2: a nice nod to the travails of like what we

3610
03:06:41,280 --> 03:06:43,520
Speaker 2: are seeing is like a diaspora, right, as people have

3611
03:06:43,600 --> 03:06:45,879
Speaker 2: to flee their homes to participate in the rebellion.

3612
03:06:45,959 --> 03:06:46,039
Speaker 7: Right.

3613
03:06:46,040 --> 03:06:48,880
Speaker 2: I think it's an appropriate kind of callback to real

3614
03:06:48,959 --> 03:06:52,080
Speaker 2: world history there and the line where I think that

3615
03:06:52,280 --> 03:06:55,840
Speaker 2: moment between her and Bail works really effectively and the

3616
03:06:55,920 --> 03:06:58,480
Speaker 2: thing that he's doing works really effectively.

3617
03:06:59,000 --> 03:07:01,040
Speaker 11: This interaction between her and Bail also shows like the

3618
03:07:01,040 --> 03:07:04,080
Speaker 11: difference between how Bail operates, Luthen operates because like Man

3619
03:07:04,240 --> 03:07:08,320
Speaker 11: asks Bail if he trust his people, like like if

3620
03:07:08,360 --> 03:07:11,240
Speaker 11: he trusts his extraction team, and he says like of course, yeah,

3621
03:07:11,400 --> 03:07:13,000
Speaker 11: but he but but he has to admit that he

3622
03:07:13,080 --> 03:07:16,600
Speaker 11: doesn't actually know them personally for for quote unquote safety,

3623
03:07:17,000 --> 03:07:18,720
Speaker 11: and like this is this is where it shows like

3624
03:07:18,760 --> 03:07:22,920
Speaker 11: the difference between someone like Bail, who's maybe less manipulative

3625
03:07:23,080 --> 03:07:25,959
Speaker 11: than Luthan, maybe a little bit less morally compromised than Luthen,

3626
03:07:26,440 --> 03:07:29,760
Speaker 11: but also in in moments like this, like in the

3627
03:07:29,920 --> 03:07:32,600
Speaker 11: in specific moments like this comes up a little bit

3628
03:07:32,640 --> 03:07:35,760
Speaker 11: short compared to Luthen's uh, like you know, semi semi

3629
03:07:35,840 --> 03:07:40,280
Speaker 11: like destructive and like bridge burning tactics, which which he

3630
03:07:40,320 --> 03:07:43,400
Speaker 11: which he openly describes as bridge burning. I think I

3631
03:07:43,480 --> 03:07:47,400
Speaker 11: think this episode like, are are there any bridges you

3632
03:07:47,440 --> 03:07:50,080
Speaker 11: haven't burned yet? Well, we're gonna deal with that soon.

3633
03:07:51,240 --> 03:07:53,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, we will be dealing with that soon. I would

3634
03:07:53,800 --> 03:07:56,760
Speaker 2: like to call out mon Mathma's face acting and both

3635
03:07:56,760 --> 03:08:00,480
Speaker 2: the scenes were casting and just immediately domes some motherfuckers.

3636
03:08:00,040 --> 03:08:03,040
Speaker 7: WHI jack my god, incredible stuff.

3637
03:08:03,480 --> 03:08:07,120
Speaker 2: She's like, she's she's known intellectually and it's even hit

3638
03:08:07,200 --> 03:08:10,000
Speaker 2: her because she had a friend of hers killed, right,

3639
03:08:10,080 --> 03:08:13,240
Speaker 2: a former lover. She didn't order it, but it was

3640
03:08:13,320 --> 03:08:15,080
Speaker 2: done and she knew it was happening, So she's not

3641
03:08:15,240 --> 03:08:17,760
Speaker 2: she had to cope with it, totally naive. But the rebellions,

3642
03:08:17,800 --> 03:08:20,880
Speaker 2: I would argue, not fully real to her until she

3643
03:08:21,000 --> 03:08:23,160
Speaker 2: sees a man shot through the brains.

3644
03:08:24,080 --> 03:08:27,280
Speaker 11: It's funny because she, like like minutes earlier, has a

3645
03:08:27,320 --> 03:08:30,360
Speaker 11: line where she's like, like, hiding in this set it

3646
03:08:30,440 --> 03:08:32,600
Speaker 11: this whole time, will have been the hardest thing we've

3647
03:08:32,640 --> 03:08:35,240
Speaker 11: ever done, and then it's immediately faced with the lethal

3648
03:08:35,320 --> 03:08:36,800
Speaker 11: consequences for her actions.

3649
03:08:37,360 --> 03:08:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like I don't know, I don't know. It's

3650
03:08:39,440 --> 03:08:39,840
Speaker 2: much worse.

3651
03:08:40,040 --> 03:08:42,040
Speaker 7: Well, and it's also like interesting too because it's like

3652
03:08:42,120 --> 03:08:46,480
Speaker 7: the second person she's seen shot in this episode, right,

3653
03:08:46,480 --> 03:08:48,800
Speaker 7: because like there's also like the first I s P

3654
03:08:48,920 --> 03:08:49,800
Speaker 7: Agent who they have shot.

3655
03:08:49,840 --> 03:08:53,280
Speaker 11: But it's like she doesn't know the person someone she knows, right, No,

3656
03:08:53,440 --> 03:08:56,119
Speaker 11: it's just like some cop and the known Chlorus for years.

3657
03:08:56,160 --> 03:08:56,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3658
03:08:57,240 --> 03:08:59,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, and she's just watched her just like ye nope

3659
03:09:00,040 --> 03:09:03,080
Speaker 7: and the way and it just instantly he's like yea media. Yeah,

3660
03:09:03,360 --> 03:09:05,599
Speaker 7: She's like, oh shit, would have I gotten myself.

3661
03:09:05,280 --> 03:09:09,240
Speaker 11: Into Nton's strongest soldiers, killed two undercover I s B.

3662
03:09:09,400 --> 03:09:14,400
Speaker 11: This episode give them my hand, folks, Yeah, no, this

3663
03:09:14,560 --> 03:09:17,160
Speaker 11: is this is a really a really, a really sleek episode.

3664
03:09:17,520 --> 03:09:21,360
Speaker 11: I do like that that like bails, like Infiltrator, has

3665
03:09:21,440 --> 03:09:24,200
Speaker 11: like a real is b look to her face. As

3666
03:09:24,240 --> 03:09:26,920
Speaker 11: soon as I saw that actress, I'm like that one

3667
03:09:27,000 --> 03:09:30,359
Speaker 11: has got to be the undercover I s B right, yeah, yeah.

3668
03:09:30,200 --> 03:09:31,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, she just got that.

3669
03:09:31,600 --> 03:09:35,160
Speaker 7: Fabulou has said, ib jaw very good.

3670
03:09:36,400 --> 03:09:38,320
Speaker 2: There's one thing I'd like to bring up at the

3671
03:09:38,360 --> 03:09:41,240
Speaker 2: end of these episodes. It's kind of a callback to

3672
03:09:41,320 --> 03:09:43,920
Speaker 2: the very first episode of the show. Is the first

3673
03:09:43,959 --> 03:09:47,520
Speaker 2: time we see our boy Cyril. He's just convinced that

3674
03:09:47,680 --> 03:09:50,120
Speaker 2: something is and people I've seen people point out Seria

3675
03:09:50,160 --> 03:09:51,920
Speaker 2: was actually really good at his job. He points this

3676
03:09:52,040 --> 03:09:54,240
Speaker 2: out that like I salved a murder in two days, right,

3677
03:09:54,320 --> 03:09:56,440
Speaker 2: he figured out who had who had killed these officers

3678
03:09:56,560 --> 03:09:59,640
Speaker 2: very quickly. And one of my favorite little undercutting of

3679
03:09:59,760 --> 03:10:02,240
Speaker 2: series points is that his boss solves it even faster,

3680
03:10:02,879 --> 03:10:05,680
Speaker 2: like in that first conversation, because his boss is an

3681
03:10:05,760 --> 03:10:08,720
Speaker 2: older guy, he's a corporate cop. He clearly has been

3682
03:10:08,800 --> 03:10:12,000
Speaker 2: doing whatever he's been doing since probably before the Clone Wars. Right,

3683
03:10:12,080 --> 03:10:14,959
Speaker 2: he's been nearer the end of his career than the beginning,

3684
03:10:15,440 --> 03:10:17,200
Speaker 2: and he doesn't like the Empire.

3685
03:10:17,560 --> 03:10:17,720
Speaker 6: Right.

3686
03:10:18,120 --> 03:10:20,240
Speaker 2: He's not even that much of a law and order guy.

3687
03:10:20,360 --> 03:10:22,160
Speaker 2: He's more of a get through the day and do

3688
03:10:22,320 --> 03:10:25,400
Speaker 2: my fucking job guy. When Cyril brings up Cassie and

3689
03:10:25,480 --> 03:10:28,440
Speaker 2: killing these cops, he's like, yeah, man, they're at a brothel.

3690
03:10:28,640 --> 03:10:31,160
Speaker 2: I know their salaries. They can't afford that. They were

3691
03:10:31,200 --> 03:10:33,800
Speaker 2: shaking people down. They shake the wrong guy down and

3692
03:10:33,840 --> 03:10:36,520
Speaker 2: they got killed. Best to ignore it. You don't want

3693
03:10:36,560 --> 03:10:40,920
Speaker 2: the Empire over here. And every aspect of Cyril's life

3694
03:10:40,959 --> 03:10:42,840
Speaker 2: would have been better if he'd listened to this guy

3695
03:10:43,160 --> 03:10:45,800
Speaker 2: who I'm sure spins the rest of the empire, sitting

3696
03:10:45,879 --> 03:10:49,080
Speaker 2: on like barely notices the end of things. You know,

3697
03:10:49,360 --> 03:10:52,440
Speaker 2: he's probably retired by then. Just a shout out to

3698
03:10:52,520 --> 03:10:56,119
Speaker 2: the smartest, the smartest guy in security services we meet

3699
03:10:56,200 --> 03:10:59,400
Speaker 2: over the course of these entire series, that old dude

3700
03:10:59,400 --> 03:11:01,360
Speaker 2: at the desk. She was like, not worth it, not

3701
03:11:01,440 --> 03:11:06,160
Speaker 2: getting into it. Yeah, I wouldn't ask anybody anything. A

3702
03:11:08,160 --> 03:11:12,320
Speaker 2: poor poor Cyle, what a little weasel Leah. And he

3703
03:11:12,840 --> 03:11:14,440
Speaker 2: fucked up. He fucked up bad.

3704
03:11:15,480 --> 03:11:18,200
Speaker 11: I love I always love being in the Senate. She

3705
03:11:18,320 --> 03:11:22,480
Speaker 11: does call the Gordon massacre a genocide, performs a whole speech,

3706
03:11:22,959 --> 03:11:28,120
Speaker 11: very very solid acting as usual, genevievel Riley fantastic work

3707
03:11:28,240 --> 03:11:29,880
Speaker 11: as Asma on this entire season.

3708
03:11:30,320 --> 03:11:33,240
Speaker 2: Everyone's great. God damn. Oh well, just talk a little

3709
03:11:33,240 --> 03:11:36,439
Speaker 2: bit about Deadri's breakdown after the Gorman.

3710
03:11:36,200 --> 03:11:39,279
Speaker 7: Master Yeah in episode eighth, Yeah, yeah.

3711
03:11:39,200 --> 03:11:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, which also does fit into the whole who are

3712
03:11:41,120 --> 03:11:44,640
Speaker 2: you thing where we see that she's not like a

3713
03:11:45,120 --> 03:11:49,600
Speaker 2: complete sociopath, right, She's not absolutely devoid of horror over

3714
03:11:49,720 --> 03:11:52,880
Speaker 2: what she's doing. She's just willing to accept the horror

3715
03:11:53,040 --> 03:11:55,680
Speaker 2: in order to get what she wants out of life,

3716
03:11:56,240 --> 03:11:58,240
Speaker 2: which I think is just like a much more realistic

3717
03:11:58,280 --> 03:12:00,320
Speaker 2: portrayal of human evil than we tend to get.

3718
03:12:00,879 --> 03:12:01,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3719
03:12:01,480 --> 03:12:03,199
Speaker 7: She she finds ways to cope and justify.

3720
03:12:03,480 --> 03:12:05,680
Speaker 11: Yeah, And like you know, Lonnie is having to find

3721
03:12:05,720 --> 03:12:07,800
Speaker 11: ways to cope and justify, but he's doing that through

3722
03:12:07,840 --> 03:12:10,640
Speaker 11: being a double agent and feeding and feeding Luthen, like

3723
03:12:10,879 --> 03:12:14,280
Speaker 11: very very important intel as we see in this episode

3724
03:12:14,320 --> 03:12:17,800
Speaker 11: and the next let's see. I think this is this

3725
03:12:17,959 --> 03:12:20,600
Speaker 11: is most of what I what I had on on

3726
03:12:20,840 --> 03:12:24,760
Speaker 11: on thisisode. Oh yeah, I mean, BIXI Bix bricks up

3727
03:12:24,760 --> 03:12:27,240
Speaker 11: with Cassian to force Cassian to stay in the U

3728
03:12:27,760 --> 03:12:29,440
Speaker 11: in the Alliance, even though he's probably not gonna be

3729
03:12:29,440 --> 03:12:31,800
Speaker 11: working with Luthen again. I'll have more to say about

3730
03:12:31,800 --> 03:12:33,080
Speaker 11: Bis next week, I guess.

3731
03:12:33,680 --> 03:12:37,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I I have a lot to

3732
03:12:37,560 --> 03:12:40,080
Speaker 2: say about this, but I think we'll wait until last

3733
03:12:40,160 --> 03:12:43,400
Speaker 2: episode to fully discuss BIX. I think that's probably best.

3734
03:12:43,760 --> 03:12:43,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3735
03:12:44,080 --> 03:12:47,960
Speaker 11: Ye, But but this, this batch specifically, I think is

3736
03:12:48,360 --> 03:12:52,080
Speaker 11: some is some real solid, real solid so is Wow

3737
03:12:52,840 --> 03:12:53,520
Speaker 11: Star Wars.

3738
03:12:53,840 --> 03:12:56,600
Speaker 2: The stars have never been more wars, Garrison, the stars

3739
03:12:56,640 --> 03:12:59,160
Speaker 2: have never been more wars? Can all agree on that?

3740
03:13:22,920 --> 03:13:24,760
Speaker 11: I will get way too mad if I talk about

3741
03:13:24,800 --> 03:13:27,960
Speaker 11: the DNC anymore in this preamble. This is It could

3742
03:13:28,000 --> 03:13:32,119
Speaker 11: happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening

3743
03:13:32,160 --> 03:13:34,200
Speaker 11: in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it

3744
03:13:34,240 --> 03:13:36,480
Speaker 11: means for you. I'm Garrison Davis today. I'm joined by

3745
03:13:36,680 --> 03:13:40,439
Speaker 11: James Stout, Mia Wong, and Robert Evans. Right, everybody, this episode,

3746
03:13:40,560 --> 03:13:45,039
Speaker 11: we are covering the week of May eighth through May fifteenth.

3747
03:13:45,680 --> 03:13:48,800
Speaker 11: Trump gets bribed by cutter, Stephen Miller wants to suspend

3748
03:13:48,879 --> 03:13:52,760
Speaker 11: Habeas Corpus and a Twitch streamer gets interrogated at the border.

3749
03:13:53,560 --> 03:13:54,560
Speaker 7: How are we doing, fellas?

3750
03:13:55,640 --> 03:14:00,640
Speaker 2: Uh, I don't know bad Like every time I'm.

3751
03:14:00,480 --> 03:14:05,480
Speaker 7: Not talking to a border patrol willingly and yeah, that's

3752
03:14:05,520 --> 03:14:07,600
Speaker 7: what I'm doing that I'm not doing. I'm staying the

3753
03:14:07,640 --> 03:14:08,760
Speaker 7: fuck away from the border.

3754
03:14:08,840 --> 03:14:11,440
Speaker 2: Although it's also impossible to say the fuck away from

3755
03:14:11,480 --> 03:14:13,879
Speaker 2: the border because like ninety percent of the country lives

3756
03:14:13,959 --> 03:14:17,920
Speaker 2: technically within the patrols from met Yeah.

3757
03:14:18,040 --> 03:14:19,960
Speaker 11: Yeah, but if you are happening to go to the

3758
03:14:20,000 --> 03:14:22,360
Speaker 11: border and you do get stopped by law enforcement, you

3759
03:14:22,360 --> 03:14:24,560
Speaker 11: should not talk to them. You should You should say

3760
03:14:24,600 --> 03:14:27,840
Speaker 11: that you're staying silent and will only speak with a lawyer.

3761
03:14:28,040 --> 03:14:30,600
Speaker 2: You have certain things that you have to say, right

3762
03:14:30,840 --> 03:14:33,000
Speaker 2: if they decide to talk to you about something other

3763
03:14:33,120 --> 03:14:35,920
Speaker 2: than you know, here's my passport, et cetera. Do I

3764
03:14:36,000 --> 03:14:38,119
Speaker 2: have anything to declare? Which you do have to answer

3765
03:14:38,720 --> 03:14:42,000
Speaker 2: if they attempt to engage you in other conversation about, say,

3766
03:14:42,040 --> 03:14:45,320
Speaker 2: your political beliefs. All you have to say is am

3767
03:14:45,400 --> 03:14:48,800
Speaker 2: I being detained? And if they say yes, you say,

3768
03:14:49,160 --> 03:14:51,360
Speaker 2: I plead the fifth and I demand to speak to

3769
03:14:51,440 --> 03:14:54,760
Speaker 2: a lawyer, and then nothing else. There's nothing else you say.

3770
03:14:55,240 --> 03:14:57,000
Speaker 2: That's how you should handle this situation.

3771
03:14:57,560 --> 03:15:01,040
Speaker 11: Yeah, you definitely do not need to debate your politics.

3772
03:15:01,360 --> 03:15:03,720
Speaker 11: Not required with the border patrol.

3773
03:15:03,959 --> 03:15:08,920
Speaker 9: Tell them how you feel about Potestine. That's yeah, not

3774
03:15:09,080 --> 03:15:09,520
Speaker 9: gonna end.

3775
03:15:09,560 --> 03:15:14,520
Speaker 2: Well, no, not necessary, And yeah, like it's one of

3776
03:15:14,600 --> 03:15:16,840
Speaker 2: those things I have no desire to like get into

3777
03:15:17,080 --> 03:15:20,440
Speaker 2: an online beef with the fellow who got stopped. He

3778
03:15:20,760 --> 03:15:23,320
Speaker 2: is a big boy and able to make his own choices.

3779
03:15:23,760 --> 03:15:26,320
Speaker 2: But I do not recommend you make those same choices,

3780
03:15:26,400 --> 03:15:30,840
Speaker 2: because there's no actual benefit to you in doing that, right, Yeah, yeah,

3781
03:15:30,879 --> 03:15:32,920
Speaker 2: don't coalk the cops. It's very easy to not talk

3782
03:15:32,920 --> 03:15:35,200
Speaker 2: to the cops. I'm doing it right now. Uh huh,

3783
03:15:35,400 --> 03:15:39,080
Speaker 2: that's what you think, trivially easy. Yeah, it's it's it's

3784
03:15:39,120 --> 03:15:42,560
Speaker 2: simple and unnecessary, and it's just like largely the problem

3785
03:15:42,640 --> 03:15:45,119
Speaker 2: is that and this is even something that he talked

3786
03:15:45,120 --> 03:15:47,360
Speaker 2: about where like, well, the guy seemed really nice and

3787
03:15:47,440 --> 03:15:50,080
Speaker 2: he apologetic and like he didn't want to have to

3788
03:15:50,160 --> 03:15:53,200
Speaker 2: do this. And if you're having a conversation like that

3789
03:15:53,360 --> 03:15:56,760
Speaker 2: with them, then they're getting what they want out of it,

3790
03:15:56,879 --> 03:16:00,120
Speaker 2: which is for you to feel like that right, for

3791
03:16:00,240 --> 03:16:03,840
Speaker 2: you to feel like, oh okay, this guy's this guy's nice,

3792
03:16:04,040 --> 03:16:05,800
Speaker 2: I can chat with him for a little while you

3793
03:16:05,840 --> 03:16:09,520
Speaker 2: feel safe enough to talk. Yeah, yes, that's their entire job,

3794
03:16:09,640 --> 03:16:10,880
Speaker 2: that's what they're trying to get you to do.

3795
03:16:11,879 --> 03:16:14,120
Speaker 11: Yeah, and again like this is this is specifically if

3796
03:16:14,160 --> 03:16:15,720
Speaker 11: you are, like a US citizen coming to re enter

3797
03:16:15,760 --> 03:16:20,160
Speaker 11: the country. There's there's different different rules and different different

3798
03:16:20,200 --> 03:16:22,680
Speaker 11: suggestions which you should talk with an immigration lawyer about

3799
03:16:22,680 --> 03:16:23,840
Speaker 11: if you were not a US citizen.

3800
03:16:23,959 --> 03:16:26,800
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, not advice for people who are coming here

3801
03:16:26,840 --> 03:16:28,880
Speaker 2: and not citizens. Yeah, yeah, none of this is.

3802
03:16:29,360 --> 03:16:31,360
Speaker 11: But yeah, you really really do not need to get

3803
03:16:31,360 --> 03:16:34,400
Speaker 11: into a debate with the border guard about your politics

3804
03:16:34,680 --> 03:16:36,480
Speaker 11: when you're trying to enter the country.

3805
03:16:36,560 --> 03:16:41,440
Speaker 2: Or any other time. Really just just don't really any time. Yeah,

3806
03:16:41,879 --> 03:16:43,680
Speaker 2: there's no point in time in which that's useful to

3807
03:16:43,760 --> 03:16:45,960
Speaker 2: you or anyone else. You ain't changing doing it.

3808
03:16:46,600 --> 03:16:47,080
Speaker 3: Maybe do it.

3809
03:16:47,160 --> 03:16:50,920
Speaker 11: Maybe there's more to politics than debate. No, speaking of

3810
03:16:51,080 --> 03:16:56,560
Speaker 11: more to politics, the PKK, what's going on with the PKK, fellas.

3811
03:16:56,959 --> 03:16:59,080
Speaker 2: We should, we should give a brief overview of who

3812
03:16:59,120 --> 03:17:03,720
Speaker 2: the PKK is is. The PKK is the Kurdish Workers Party,

3813
03:17:04,080 --> 03:17:08,120
Speaker 2: and it is originally a maoist and now not that

3814
03:17:08,680 --> 03:17:11,920
Speaker 2: terrorist group. That's legally how it's defined by the United

3815
03:17:11,959 --> 03:17:15,560
Speaker 2: States and by most Western countries. That was started in

3816
03:17:15,680 --> 03:17:18,600
Speaker 2: southern Turkey like in the late seventies, close to fifty

3817
03:17:18,680 --> 03:17:22,080
Speaker 2: years ago, and it started out as a rather different

3818
03:17:22,240 --> 03:17:25,320
Speaker 2: kind of organization than it is. It's one of its

3819
03:17:25,360 --> 03:17:28,760
Speaker 2: founders and generally the guy referred to as its founder

3820
03:17:28,760 --> 03:17:31,640
Speaker 2: as a dude named of the la Aujalon or Oppo

3821
03:17:32,280 --> 03:17:36,160
Speaker 2: who got captioned Kenya a few decades back and has

3822
03:17:36,200 --> 03:17:40,480
Speaker 2: been in a Turkish prison ever since, but does continue

3823
03:17:40,560 --> 03:17:44,640
Speaker 2: to like write stuff that informs because there's kind of

3824
03:17:44,680 --> 03:17:48,360
Speaker 2: this strong Maoist core at the heart of the foundation

3825
03:17:48,560 --> 03:17:51,240
Speaker 2: of the party continues to have a lot of influence

3826
03:17:51,280 --> 03:17:53,600
Speaker 2: over it. And this is the root of kind of

3827
03:17:53,800 --> 03:17:56,960
Speaker 2: the different organizations that sprung out and became what we

3828
03:17:57,040 --> 03:18:00,640
Speaker 2: call Rajava. Is this group that kind of came in

3829
03:18:01,040 --> 03:18:06,200
Speaker 2: during Isis's invasion and you know, had changed significantly from

3830
03:18:06,240 --> 03:18:09,480
Speaker 2: its MAOIs roots at that point, and kind of from

3831
03:18:09,760 --> 03:18:12,960
Speaker 2: the PKK, we get the YPG and the YPJ and

3832
03:18:13,320 --> 03:18:19,040
Speaker 2: you know, these different social and militant movements in Northeast Syria. Anyway, Yeah,

3833
03:18:19,360 --> 03:18:23,480
Speaker 2: they would dispute the from the PKK, they sure would. Yes,

3834
03:18:25,840 --> 03:18:29,440
Speaker 2: the robots for a good legal reason. Yes, yes, but

3835
03:18:29,520 --> 03:18:30,080
Speaker 2: they're all.

3836
03:18:30,040 --> 03:18:32,840
Speaker 9: Inspired by the political thought of oyser Land, right, Like

3837
03:18:32,959 --> 03:18:35,600
Speaker 9: we can say that safely. Yeah, and Ouserland, I guess

3838
03:18:35,800 --> 03:18:38,840
Speaker 9: addressed by video the twelfth Congress of the PKK which

3839
03:18:38,879 --> 03:18:44,160
Speaker 9: occurred earlier this month, at which they voted to disband

3840
03:18:44,280 --> 03:18:48,840
Speaker 9: themselves and lay down their arms. So that's the d

3841
03:18:48,879 --> 03:18:52,600
Speaker 9: A meeting, right, they get together. Obviously it seems that

3842
03:18:52,720 --> 03:18:55,800
Speaker 9: Turkey decided not to ask strike that meeting. Turkey has

3843
03:18:55,840 --> 03:18:58,520
Speaker 9: been carrying out strikes against the PKK in three different

3844
03:18:58,560 --> 03:19:02,680
Speaker 9: countries for decades, and sort of small arms engagements as well,

3845
03:19:02,760 --> 03:19:05,520
Speaker 9: and artillery in the whole nine yards. So yeah, at

3846
03:19:05,560 --> 03:19:08,840
Speaker 9: that conference they decided to lay down their arms and

3847
03:19:09,000 --> 03:19:14,120
Speaker 9: begin disbanding themselves and return to They're still pursuing their

3848
03:19:14,120 --> 03:19:17,400
Speaker 9: struggle I guess, for freedom for Kedistan.

3849
03:19:17,200 --> 03:19:21,480
Speaker 2: But this time through the democratic process. Yeah. We're going

3850
03:19:21,520 --> 03:19:26,600
Speaker 2: to cover this subject in more detail on Tuesday next Tuesday.

3851
03:19:27,200 --> 03:19:29,680
Speaker 2: But suffice it to say, like this does not mean

3852
03:19:30,080 --> 03:19:33,960
Speaker 2: that like the PKK is like that all of the

3853
03:19:34,120 --> 03:19:37,480
Speaker 2: kind of different movements that came out of and were

3854
03:19:37,560 --> 03:19:40,920
Speaker 2: inspired by the PKK are like folding up and setting

3855
03:19:41,360 --> 03:19:45,320
Speaker 2: up shop. This is more of a pragmatic decision made

3856
03:19:45,360 --> 03:19:47,920
Speaker 2: as the result of the changes of situations on the

3857
03:19:48,000 --> 03:19:50,160
Speaker 2: ground and the progress that a number of these other

3858
03:19:50,240 --> 03:19:53,840
Speaker 2: movements have made. And yeah, this is worthy of deeper discussion.

3859
03:19:53,879 --> 03:19:56,680
Speaker 2: We'll give a deeper discussion. But this is something that's

3860
03:19:56,760 --> 03:19:59,600
Speaker 2: going to hopefully at least mean that Turkey spends less

3861
03:19:59,640 --> 03:20:03,320
Speaker 2: time northern Iraq, although that it may be foolish to

3862
03:20:03,400 --> 03:20:04,280
Speaker 2: hope too much for that.

3863
03:20:05,560 --> 03:20:07,640
Speaker 9: Do you love to bumble an Iraq? I guess they're

3864
03:20:07,680 --> 03:20:10,160
Speaker 9: calling it there like good Friday moments. So people who

3865
03:20:10,160 --> 03:20:11,920
Speaker 9: are familiar with the Irish situation.

3866
03:20:12,120 --> 03:20:16,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, when the ira was like, maybe we've done enough.

3867
03:20:18,800 --> 03:20:22,600
Speaker 9: And significantly when there were releases of people who were incarcerated.

3868
03:20:22,080 --> 03:20:24,560
Speaker 2: Right, right, and the British government did make some significant

3869
03:20:24,600 --> 03:20:25,280
Speaker 2: concessions too.

3870
03:20:25,400 --> 03:20:28,480
Speaker 9: Yes, so we will learn more of there were concessions

3871
03:20:28,520 --> 03:20:30,360
Speaker 9: involved in this process or if it was a kind

3872
03:20:30,360 --> 03:20:31,200
Speaker 9: of unilateral thing.

3873
03:20:31,520 --> 03:20:34,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of rumors again, just to go briefly,

3874
03:20:34,520 --> 03:20:39,119
Speaker 2: that the Turkish government essentially needs that aired one essentially

3875
03:20:39,200 --> 03:20:42,440
Speaker 2: needs some of the support of the Kurdish parties in

3876
03:20:42,600 --> 03:20:46,560
Speaker 2: order to maintain keep doing Erdawan shit. So again we'll

3877
03:20:46,600 --> 03:20:47,200
Speaker 2: see on all that.

3878
03:20:47,640 --> 03:20:53,520
Speaker 7: Yep, speaking of not blowing each other up. India and Pakistan, well, yeah,

3879
03:20:54,200 --> 03:20:57,320
Speaker 7: slightly blowing lightly blowing each other up. Can we say

3880
03:20:57,360 --> 03:21:00,480
Speaker 7: that without minimizing it, because yeah, there's some fens and

3881
03:21:00,560 --> 03:21:01,080
Speaker 7: blowing up.

3882
03:21:01,560 --> 03:21:03,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's let's talk about this.

3883
03:21:03,400 --> 03:21:03,480
Speaker 6: Uh.

3884
03:21:03,840 --> 03:21:07,959
Speaker 7: We are thankfully no longer on nuclear war watch, which

3885
03:21:08,000 --> 03:21:08,400
Speaker 7: is great.

3886
03:21:09,200 --> 03:21:13,800
Speaker 2: Put on pause. It's all cool, everything's fine.

3887
03:21:14,920 --> 03:21:17,039
Speaker 11: I was I was talking with a read last night

3888
03:21:17,080 --> 03:21:21,560
Speaker 11: about whenever this sort of confrontation happens. One of the

3889
03:21:21,720 --> 03:21:24,720
Speaker 11: nice things about a globalist world order is that if

3890
03:21:24,760 --> 03:21:26,400
Speaker 11: the rest of the world goes.

3891
03:21:26,640 --> 03:21:32,320
Speaker 7: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa Hello, who come on now, it

3892
03:21:32,520 --> 03:21:33,279
Speaker 7: kind of works.

3893
03:21:34,560 --> 03:21:37,160
Speaker 2: Pull him back, hold me back, bro China got a

3894
03:21:37,240 --> 03:21:43,880
Speaker 2: hand on pakistans es. It's not worth it. They're not

3895
03:21:44,000 --> 03:21:46,680
Speaker 2: worth it. That's the role of the United Nations. Jade

3896
03:21:46,720 --> 03:21:49,160
Speaker 2: E Vance like massaging India's shoulders.

3897
03:21:49,200 --> 03:21:50,520
Speaker 7: I know, man, I know, but it's.

3898
03:21:52,560 --> 03:21:52,840
Speaker 2: Whatever.

3899
03:21:53,000 --> 03:21:53,280
Speaker 6: Whatever.

3900
03:21:53,360 --> 03:21:57,040
Speaker 11: Things get really spicy between two equal powers. If one

3901
03:21:57,080 --> 03:22:00,120
Speaker 11: of their buddies just can go hey, hey, dude, whoa whoa, Oh,

3902
03:22:01,000 --> 03:22:03,000
Speaker 11: it kind of works, which is a little bit silly,

3903
03:22:03,080 --> 03:22:04,039
Speaker 11: but yeah, yeah, just.

3904
03:22:04,120 --> 03:22:06,760
Speaker 2: Remind everyone in charge, do you know how rich you are?

3905
03:22:06,920 --> 03:22:10,440
Speaker 2: Come on, you don't want this like you've got hot

3906
03:22:10,520 --> 03:22:12,440
Speaker 2: tubs in your manshin, it ain't worth it.

3907
03:22:14,280 --> 03:22:17,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, foreign politics, so much of it is just so

3908
03:22:17,879 --> 03:22:23,160
Speaker 7: unbelievably stupid, Like it is just like weird nationalist masculinity bullshit,

3909
03:22:23,200 --> 03:22:25,040
Speaker 7: where it's like, okay, so we killed some of your

3910
03:22:25,080 --> 03:22:26,879
Speaker 7: your people, and then you're gonna kill some of our people,

3911
03:22:26,920 --> 03:22:29,680
Speaker 7: and then we can both agree that we like retaliated,

3912
03:22:29,800 --> 03:22:31,879
Speaker 7: neither of us back down, and then we'll do a ceasefire.

3913
03:22:32,360 --> 03:22:34,240
Speaker 7: So the good news here is that we did actually

3914
03:22:34,280 --> 03:22:36,680
Speaker 7: get a ceasefire. The ceasefire was holding, and it's continued

3915
03:22:36,720 --> 03:22:39,440
Speaker 7: to hold. This is not like a kind of like

3916
03:22:39,600 --> 03:22:42,040
Speaker 7: Israel Palace and cease fire where the Israelis immediately just

3917
03:22:42,080 --> 03:22:45,640
Speaker 7: start like shooting everyone an instant later. This is actually holding.

3918
03:22:46,400 --> 03:22:48,760
Speaker 7: It's good, it will probably continue to hold. We got

3919
03:22:48,800 --> 03:22:51,360
Speaker 7: some more details from Reuters who talked to a bunch

3920
03:22:51,440 --> 03:22:58,000
Speaker 7: of officials from different camps. But we know now we're

3921
03:22:58,040 --> 03:22:59,959
Speaker 7: gonna do a longer episode about this next week.

3922
03:23:00,440 --> 03:23:03,039
Speaker 2: Tuesday. Yeah, all the walls on Tuesday.

3923
03:23:03,320 --> 03:23:05,720
Speaker 7: Probably Tuesday, unless, like I don't know, like some other

3924
03:23:06,120 --> 03:23:08,200
Speaker 7: shit happens. Who knows, I don't I don't want to

3925
03:23:08,240 --> 03:23:09,640
Speaker 7: ever promise an episode's.

3926
03:23:09,280 --> 03:23:10,480
Speaker 2: Going out of a day because.

3927
03:23:10,840 --> 03:23:14,280
Speaker 5: Tuesday or Wednesday, because it's like like we could we

3928
03:23:14,320 --> 03:23:17,000
Speaker 5: could wake up to Trump is likely Trump has like

3929
03:23:17,040 --> 03:23:19,440
Speaker 5: declared that like his meme coin is now the official

3930
03:23:19,480 --> 03:23:21,959
Speaker 5: currency of the United States or something like who.

3931
03:23:21,879 --> 03:23:25,200
Speaker 7: Knows, you say, or Wednesday, we'll say, yeah. Yeah. So

3932
03:23:25,440 --> 03:23:29,240
Speaker 7: what's used to have happened that really escalated everything is

3933
03:23:29,280 --> 03:23:33,440
Speaker 7: that India fired on a critical Pakistani air base and

3934
03:23:33,959 --> 03:23:36,720
Speaker 7: Pakistan was like, all right, gotta go fucking sick on

3935
03:23:36,800 --> 03:23:40,720
Speaker 7: mode now, and so they do their retaliation. India appears

3936
03:23:40,800 --> 03:23:43,880
Speaker 7: to not have understood exactly how pissed off Pakistan was

3937
03:23:43,920 --> 03:23:46,360
Speaker 7: going to be about them hitting this airbase, which also,

3938
03:23:46,480 --> 03:23:49,040
Speaker 7: like you would, I don't know what their military planning is,

3939
03:23:49,080 --> 03:23:50,000
Speaker 7: like you would assume.

3940
03:23:49,840 --> 03:23:52,280
Speaker 2: Trees normally love it when you hit their air bases.

3941
03:23:52,720 --> 03:23:53,000
Speaker 6: Whatever.

3942
03:23:54,000 --> 03:23:56,560
Speaker 2: Ran at Area fifty one, Yeah, like what are we

3943
03:23:56,640 --> 03:23:57,640
Speaker 2: doing here? What are we doing here?

3944
03:23:58,520 --> 03:24:01,280
Speaker 7: But the thing that does seem to have worked is

3945
03:24:01,360 --> 03:24:03,600
Speaker 7: that Mark or Rubio seems to have actually been like

3946
03:24:03,959 --> 03:24:06,640
Speaker 7: able to kind of pass information along between the advance

3947
03:24:06,760 --> 03:24:10,120
Speaker 7: was also sort of involved. It seemed mostly like Rubio

3948
03:24:10,280 --> 03:24:13,279
Speaker 7: was able to pass a thing to the Pakistani government,

3949
03:24:13,400 --> 03:24:16,760
Speaker 7: being like, hey, the Indians are gonna stop. And the

3950
03:24:16,840 --> 03:24:19,240
Speaker 7: Pakistani government was like, yeah.

3951
03:24:19,520 --> 03:24:22,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, but this is getting done.

3952
03:24:23,200 --> 03:24:26,000
Speaker 7: We did our retaliatory attacks, like we fucked up.

3953
03:24:25,920 --> 03:24:30,040
Speaker 2: A bunch of expensive jets. Like that is key is

3954
03:24:30,120 --> 03:24:33,240
Speaker 2: that everybody can sort of this didn't go on so

3955
03:24:33,480 --> 03:24:38,520
Speaker 2: far that that like everyone has a lot to avenge,

3956
03:24:38,720 --> 03:24:41,960
Speaker 2: and it went on enough that everybody can claim some wins.

3957
03:24:42,000 --> 03:24:44,240
Speaker 2: Pakistan could be like, we really did some damage to

3958
03:24:44,320 --> 03:24:47,480
Speaker 2: India's best chunk of their air force, and India can

3959
03:24:47,600 --> 03:24:51,440
Speaker 2: be like, we blew up some stuff you know, everybody's got.

3960
03:24:52,440 --> 03:24:54,560
Speaker 2: If you if you don't have enough information to know

3961
03:24:54,720 --> 03:24:58,200
Speaker 2: that like nobody really won, you can pretend you did, right,

3962
03:24:58,520 --> 03:24:59,840
Speaker 2: And that's what both of them are doing.

3963
03:25:00,400 --> 03:25:02,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I think this was this one were talking

3964
03:25:02,040 --> 03:25:03,920
Speaker 7: about this last week, like that the best case scenario

3965
03:25:04,400 --> 03:25:06,160
Speaker 7: for this is actually I kind of better than the

3966
03:25:06,160 --> 03:25:08,280
Speaker 7: best case scenario I was thinking of. I mean, not

3967
03:25:08,400 --> 03:25:10,160
Speaker 7: this is like none of this is a good outcome,

3968
03:25:10,280 --> 03:25:13,040
Speaker 7: but the outcome here of like it's like a very

3969
03:25:13,120 --> 03:25:16,640
Speaker 7: abbreviated version of like an Israel iron thing where they

3970
03:25:16,640 --> 03:25:19,600
Speaker 7: shoot each other a few times and then stop. Hopefully

3971
03:25:19,680 --> 03:25:22,400
Speaker 7: this will continue to hold and hopefully both sides will

3972
03:25:22,800 --> 03:25:24,280
Speaker 7: not take this, and this is something that they were

3973
03:25:24,280 --> 03:25:26,560
Speaker 7: talking about. One of the experts that we're just talking

3974
03:25:26,600 --> 03:25:29,480
Speaker 7: to were talking about was like, hopefully both sides don't

3975
03:25:29,560 --> 03:25:31,760
Speaker 7: see this as a like, oh, we can have conflict

3976
03:25:31,760 --> 03:25:34,600
Speaker 7: between two nuclear empowers and it'll be okay. Hopefully both

3977
03:25:34,640 --> 03:25:36,760
Speaker 7: sides are going to be like this was very dumb,

3978
03:25:37,200 --> 03:25:41,560
Speaker 7: but right now it seems to be over. The ceasefires holding.

3979
03:25:42,480 --> 03:25:43,680
Speaker 7: Hopefully more people don't die.

3980
03:25:44,040 --> 03:25:44,240
Speaker 8: Yep.

3981
03:25:44,680 --> 03:25:47,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, the Dessault stug price though, that that took a

3982
03:25:47,240 --> 03:25:49,959
Speaker 9: foul after all shut down.

3983
03:25:50,000 --> 03:25:52,800
Speaker 2: That's kind of funny. You know what else is funny?

3984
03:25:53,800 --> 03:25:58,400
Speaker 2: Hopefully the russ Ads. Yeah, this podcast nice one.

3985
03:25:58,520 --> 03:26:00,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's why they pay me the baud ocre books.

3986
03:26:14,200 --> 03:26:19,760
Speaker 7: Uh yeah, welcome back to something ed. If you have ed,

3987
03:26:20,240 --> 03:26:26,880
Speaker 7: please consider him sent Cutter, I hardly okay, sorry now, Garrison,

3988
03:26:26,920 --> 03:26:28,080
Speaker 7: I'm so proud of you, buddy.

3989
03:26:29,240 --> 03:26:31,120
Speaker 2: That was the right thing to say. That was the

3990
03:26:31,280 --> 03:26:32,080
Speaker 2: right thing to say.

3991
03:26:32,920 --> 03:26:36,039
Speaker 7: Ahead of Trump's planned trip to the Middle East, Cutter

3992
03:26:36,160 --> 03:26:39,480
Speaker 7: has offered a gift to President Trump, a four hundred

3993
03:26:39,640 --> 03:26:43,840
Speaker 7: million dollar Boeing seven forty seven eight luxury jet known

3994
03:26:43,920 --> 03:26:48,080
Speaker 7: as a Palace in the Sky, which Trump does plan

3995
03:26:48,240 --> 03:26:49,119
Speaker 7: to accept.

3996
03:26:48,800 --> 03:26:50,480
Speaker 2: Which a stupid fucking plan.

3997
03:26:52,480 --> 03:26:54,400
Speaker 7: You gotta flick up a picture of this thing. It

3998
03:26:54,560 --> 03:26:59,040
Speaker 7: is absurd, and I gotta say, honestly, my primary thoughts,

3999
03:26:59,120 --> 03:27:01,800
Speaker 7: I know they should be like offense and anger, but

4000
03:27:02,040 --> 03:27:03,400
Speaker 7: most they're mostly ah cutter.

4001
03:27:03,520 --> 03:27:07,000
Speaker 2: You know the assignment. You knew exactly this man can't

4002
03:27:07,080 --> 03:27:10,280
Speaker 2: turn down a luxury palace plane. Of course, it's not.

4003
03:27:11,480 --> 03:27:14,200
Speaker 2: Someone should off from the fucking snow piercer. You know

4004
03:27:14,280 --> 03:27:16,120
Speaker 2: it's all gold up in there. It is.

4005
03:27:16,400 --> 03:27:18,800
Speaker 7: It is all gold up in there. Actually, you can

4006
03:27:18,879 --> 03:27:23,320
Speaker 7: look it up. It absolutely is. I don't need to

4007
03:27:23,480 --> 03:27:26,920
Speaker 7: garrison in my in my mind palace, I've already seen

4008
03:27:27,120 --> 03:27:33,120
Speaker 7: the Okay, hit me with the leak.

4009
03:27:33,240 --> 03:27:35,520
Speaker 2: Why did we allow this to be constructed? Because it's

4010
03:27:35,600 --> 03:27:38,840
Speaker 2: it's one of those things. This is not this like again,

4011
03:27:39,120 --> 03:27:41,360
Speaker 2: should it not be legal for Trump to do this?

4012
03:27:41,640 --> 03:27:44,000
Speaker 2: Is it not legal for Trump to do this? Of course?

4013
03:27:44,400 --> 03:27:47,840
Speaker 2: Is it physically possible for the man Donald Trump to

4014
03:27:48,000 --> 03:27:49,520
Speaker 2: say no to this plane?

4015
03:27:49,840 --> 03:27:49,960
Speaker 7: Now?

4016
03:27:50,400 --> 03:27:52,840
Speaker 2: No, no, that never was in the carts.

4017
03:27:53,360 --> 03:27:55,600
Speaker 7: This this is a temple to the defeat of the

4018
03:27:55,680 --> 03:27:57,039
Speaker 7: International Workers Movement.

4019
03:27:57,560 --> 03:28:01,920
Speaker 2: Jesus, I want to see pitches of this plane. Someone

4020
03:28:01,920 --> 03:28:05,119
Speaker 2: to send me pitches the p oh oh good lord,

4021
03:28:05,240 --> 03:28:07,200
Speaker 2: oh good lord. Okay, I'm putting it. I mean it's

4022
03:28:07,240 --> 03:28:08,400
Speaker 2: exactly the plane you'd think.

4023
03:28:08,520 --> 03:28:12,360
Speaker 11: Yes, it's the most Trump thing you could ever imagine. Yeah,

4024
03:28:12,560 --> 03:28:13,440
Speaker 11: it's so funny.

4025
03:28:14,160 --> 03:28:15,080
Speaker 2: I'm so angry.

4026
03:28:15,360 --> 03:28:17,880
Speaker 7: It's just Trump tower in the sky, like you know,

4027
03:28:18,040 --> 03:28:20,280
Speaker 7: it's it's actually what I will say about that, Gere,

4028
03:28:20,320 --> 03:28:23,640
Speaker 7: is a Trump tower in the sky is like a

4029
03:28:24,000 --> 03:28:29,320
Speaker 7: ship built to look fancy to like tasteless Americans. The

4030
03:28:29,400 --> 03:28:36,039
Speaker 7: Katari versions actually is actually extremely nice. Yes, the Immirant

4031
03:28:36,080 --> 03:28:38,560
Speaker 7: of Qatar knows what they're fucking doing when it comes

4032
03:28:38,600 --> 03:28:41,600
Speaker 7: to interior design for fucking evil rich people.

4033
03:28:42,160 --> 03:28:44,920
Speaker 2: This you could have had this if you replace the

4034
03:28:45,360 --> 03:28:47,920
Speaker 2: walls that are clearly a plane. This could have been

4035
03:28:48,080 --> 03:28:50,480
Speaker 2: like a set on and or from like a high

4036
03:28:50,560 --> 03:28:54,120
Speaker 2: level coruscant, like the person's house, like that's that's what

4037
03:28:54,200 --> 03:28:56,880
Speaker 2: we're talking. Especially that like room with the elevator in

4038
03:28:56,959 --> 03:28:59,720
Speaker 2: the middle, like that's a set where mon Mathma yells

4039
03:28:59,720 --> 03:29:01,640
Speaker 2: at her like it's beautiful.

4040
03:29:02,480 --> 03:29:05,320
Speaker 11: So this plane would be used as a new Air

4041
03:29:05,480 --> 03:29:10,800
Speaker 11: Force one and after his term, Trump would retain ownership

4042
03:29:10,959 --> 03:29:13,160
Speaker 11: through his Presidential Library Foundation.

4043
03:29:13,560 --> 03:29:16,720
Speaker 2: Of course, that's so many.

4044
03:29:16,600 --> 03:29:19,400
Speaker 11: Issues with this, from like national security to like a

4045
03:29:19,520 --> 03:29:24,600
Speaker 11: very clear bribe. On Monday, Trump told reporters quote, I

4046
03:29:24,680 --> 03:29:27,120
Speaker 11: could be a stupid person and say no, we don't

4047
03:29:27,200 --> 03:29:29,480
Speaker 11: want to free very expensive airplane.

4048
03:29:29,879 --> 03:29:32,200
Speaker 7: I thought it was a great gesture. Unquote.

4049
03:29:32,560 --> 03:29:38,240
Speaker 2: Of course, of course what owned So what made a

4050
03:29:38,320 --> 03:29:41,480
Speaker 2: comment that like we received the Statue of Liberty as

4051
03:29:41,520 --> 03:29:45,160
Speaker 2: a gift. It's the same thing.

4052
03:29:45,720 --> 03:29:47,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's not really the same thing.

4053
03:29:47,200 --> 03:29:51,360
Speaker 9: Guys, If like it was Jeff, I don't know who

4054
03:29:51,440 --> 03:29:53,360
Speaker 9: is president went arrive, but if the president was living

4055
03:29:53,400 --> 03:29:55,560
Speaker 9: inside the Statue of Liberty, Chester, I think it was

4056
03:29:55,640 --> 03:29:56,600
Speaker 9: Chester aar there.

4057
03:29:56,720 --> 03:29:59,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, I don't remember exactly.

4058
03:29:59,560 --> 03:30:01,760
Speaker 7: I you also love that Trump isn't making the same

4059
03:30:01,920 --> 03:30:04,240
Speaker 7: argument that like the old that Clinton supporters used to,

4060
03:30:04,320 --> 03:30:05,720
Speaker 7: which is like, well you can take money from a

4061
03:30:05,760 --> 03:30:07,560
Speaker 7: thing without being influenced by it, And like the New

4062
03:30:07,680 --> 03:30:10,320
Speaker 7: York Times is making this argument. They're like, well, just

4063
03:30:10,400 --> 03:30:13,520
Speaker 7: because people are are spending one million dollars to have

4064
03:30:13,720 --> 03:30:16,120
Speaker 7: dinner at a crypto thing with Trump doesn't mean that

4065
03:30:16,560 --> 03:30:18,480
Speaker 7: he's actually been influenced by the money, so you can't

4066
03:30:18,520 --> 03:30:19,199
Speaker 7: call it bribery.

4067
03:30:19,280 --> 03:30:20,960
Speaker 2: And I was like, this is great society.

4068
03:30:21,320 --> 03:30:23,680
Speaker 7: We love this, we love this. Just give him give

4069
03:30:23,760 --> 03:30:25,039
Speaker 7: give the president the fancy.

4070
03:30:24,920 --> 03:30:25,640
Speaker 2: Quinn pro what.

4071
03:30:26,480 --> 03:30:28,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, to be fair, Trump does have something of a

4072
03:30:28,720 --> 03:30:31,400
Speaker 9: history of entering into a financial contract with people and

4073
03:30:31,480 --> 03:30:34,760
Speaker 9: then totally abandoning his end of it, So you could

4074
03:30:34,840 --> 03:30:35,760
Speaker 9: you could make that up.

4075
03:30:36,000 --> 03:30:38,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so bad Trump.

4076
03:30:38,440 --> 03:30:41,879
Speaker 11: They get into an argument with with ABC anchors when

4077
03:30:41,920 --> 03:30:44,640
Speaker 11: they asked him if he thought this could be seen

4078
03:30:44,720 --> 03:30:45,360
Speaker 11: as a bribe.

4079
03:30:45,400 --> 03:30:46,760
Speaker 7: I'll play a short clip here.

4080
03:30:47,160 --> 03:30:49,680
Speaker 10: Why you're saying people who view that luxury jet as

4081
03:30:49,720 --> 03:30:51,160
Speaker 10: a personal would get to you?

4082
03:30:51,360 --> 03:30:55,320
Speaker 6: Why not leave it your ABC? Fake news only ABC?

4083
03:30:55,560 --> 03:30:58,000
Speaker 13: Well a few of you would, let me tell you,

4084
03:30:59,320 --> 03:31:02,640
Speaker 13: you should be bad asking the question they're giving us

4085
03:31:02,720 --> 03:31:05,280
Speaker 13: a free jet, I could say, no, no, no, don't

4086
03:31:05,320 --> 03:31:05,600
Speaker 13: give us.

4087
03:31:05,680 --> 03:31:08,080
Speaker 6: I want to pay you a billion or four hundred

4088
03:31:08,200 --> 03:31:11,280
Speaker 6: million or whatever it is. Well, I could say thank

4089
03:31:11,320 --> 03:31:15,240
Speaker 6: you very much. You know those an all golfer named

4090
03:31:15,280 --> 03:31:17,920
Speaker 6: Sam Snay Did you ever hear me? One? ADQ terms

4091
03:31:18,160 --> 03:31:18,960
Speaker 6: was a great golfer.

4092
03:31:19,800 --> 03:31:22,080
Speaker 11: After that, he goes on to talk about golf for

4093
03:31:22,240 --> 03:31:25,160
Speaker 11: a whole minute, building an analogy based on making an

4094
03:31:25,240 --> 03:31:28,400
Speaker 11: easy putt on a golf course. I'm going to quote

4095
03:31:28,400 --> 03:31:33,519
Speaker 11: from BBC quote Attorney General Pambondi reportedly investigated the legality

4096
03:31:33,600 --> 03:31:35,680
Speaker 11: of the deal and determined that because there are no

4097
03:31:35,920 --> 03:31:39,800
Speaker 11: explicit conditions attached, it would not amount to a bribe.

4098
03:31:40,400 --> 03:31:43,039
Speaker 11: Conservatives and others were quick to point out that Bondi

4099
03:31:43,200 --> 03:31:46,199
Speaker 11: was registered as a lobbyist for Cutter prior to joining

4100
03:31:46,240 --> 03:31:49,800
Speaker 11: Trump's cabinet, at some point, earning up to one hundred

4101
03:31:49,840 --> 03:31:53,440
Speaker 11: and fifteen thousand dollars a month for her work for

4102
03:31:53,560 --> 03:31:54,640
Speaker 11: the Qatari government.

4103
03:31:54,959 --> 03:31:57,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, one's going to be like influenced by a

4104
03:31:57,720 --> 03:32:00,720
Speaker 2: mere one hundred and fourteen thousand dollars a month. You couldn't,

4105
03:32:00,760 --> 03:32:04,040
Speaker 2: for example, easily immediately so much money and get me

4106
03:32:04,200 --> 03:32:08,080
Speaker 2: to say everyone should buy a Chevy truck, the new Ram,

4107
03:32:08,680 --> 03:32:12,280
Speaker 2: that's the vehicle of the proletariat Ram.

4108
03:32:12,879 --> 03:32:15,200
Speaker 7: We know that this is fake because Robert would never

4109
03:32:15,320 --> 03:32:17,560
Speaker 7: knowingly endorse a Chevy product for.

4110
03:32:17,560 --> 03:32:19,960
Speaker 2: One hundred and fourteen thousand dollars. You think I wouldn't

4111
03:32:19,959 --> 03:32:20,640
Speaker 2: sell chevyes.

4112
03:32:23,760 --> 03:32:26,240
Speaker 11: But this is the most like corrupt administration we've ever

4113
03:32:26,320 --> 03:32:29,040
Speaker 11: seen before. It's absurd, like just completely like flying it

4114
03:32:29,120 --> 03:32:31,840
Speaker 11: in your face. Even ten Cruz said that this gift

4115
03:32:31,920 --> 03:32:36,720
Speaker 11: could could impose quote significant espionage and surveillance problems unquote

4116
03:32:37,000 --> 03:32:38,560
Speaker 11: because yeah, that plane.

4117
03:32:38,440 --> 03:32:41,240
Speaker 2: Is going to be so fun for thee Oh my god,

4118
03:32:41,480 --> 03:32:46,119
Speaker 2: how they're just the whole plane. It's a flying bug.

4119
03:32:46,520 --> 03:32:47,560
Speaker 2: It's so funny.

4120
03:32:47,840 --> 03:32:51,640
Speaker 11: Our government they're gonna listened to every Air Force one meeting.

4121
03:32:52,080 --> 03:32:54,120
Speaker 2: Not only are they going to listen into it, the

4122
03:32:54,240 --> 03:32:57,240
Speaker 2: guy whose job that is, Like, they've already been paying

4123
03:32:57,240 --> 03:32:59,280
Speaker 2: almost as much as the plane costs for him to

4124
03:32:59,320 --> 03:33:02,560
Speaker 2: get pre empt of therapy to listen to that many

4125
03:33:02,680 --> 03:33:07,960
Speaker 2: Trump inner circle conversations. The fucking Emir himself is putting

4126
03:33:07,959 --> 03:33:10,400
Speaker 2: a hand. I know, man, I know it's gonna be hard.

4127
03:33:10,959 --> 03:33:12,880
Speaker 2: Like we're all back, We're all behind you.

4128
03:33:15,200 --> 03:33:18,960
Speaker 11: Everyone from like Ben Shapiro to Laura Lumer have have

4129
03:33:19,080 --> 03:33:23,040
Speaker 11: opposed this de facto bribe as quote unquote sleazy, while

4130
03:33:23,080 --> 03:33:26,320
Speaker 11: also pointing to Cutter as a terrorist aligned state.

4131
03:33:26,680 --> 03:33:30,720
Speaker 2: Did you think your guy was? Come on, you watched

4132
03:33:30,840 --> 03:33:34,080
Speaker 2: Donald Trump. You believe me he's gonna take a golden

4133
03:33:34,320 --> 03:33:35,400
Speaker 2: palace in the sky.

4134
03:33:35,959 --> 03:33:39,760
Speaker 9: Come on, man, didn't they also wheel out a mobile

4135
03:33:39,879 --> 03:33:42,120
Speaker 9: McDonald's faming costa so he could do.

4136
03:33:42,480 --> 03:33:46,120
Speaker 2: That was in Saudi Arabia to Saudi Arabia, that was Arabia.

4137
03:33:46,360 --> 03:33:49,199
Speaker 7: They're also planning to possibly construct a new Trump Tower

4138
03:33:49,320 --> 03:33:50,320
Speaker 7: in Dubai.

4139
03:33:50,840 --> 03:33:56,240
Speaker 2: Su Honestly, both Dubai and Trump deserve that kind of

4140
03:33:56,440 --> 03:33:59,320
Speaker 2: like shade. Yeah, sure they belong together.

4141
03:33:59,520 --> 03:34:01,840
Speaker 11: Yeah, the people that Trump is negotiating with here just

4142
03:34:02,080 --> 03:34:04,840
Speaker 11: really know how to like get wins out of him,

4143
03:34:05,040 --> 03:34:08,119
Speaker 11: Like yeah, Trump Tower, here's a mobile McDonald.

4144
03:34:08,280 --> 03:34:11,960
Speaker 7: Here's a four million dollar free jet. They really have

4145
03:34:12,160 --> 03:34:12,840
Speaker 7: him on law.

4146
03:34:13,360 --> 03:34:17,440
Speaker 2: It's tragic because the mobile McDonald's and burger Kings used

4147
03:34:17,480 --> 03:34:21,320
Speaker 2: to be a sign of American like logistical dominance that

4148
03:34:21,560 --> 03:34:24,520
Speaker 2: like I was wondering if it had invaded it rock,

4149
03:34:24,720 --> 03:34:28,200
Speaker 2: like fuck our ability to like airstrike anyone anywhere. We

4150
03:34:28,280 --> 03:34:31,440
Speaker 2: can put a fully operational McDonald's anywhere on the planet

4151
03:34:31,480 --> 03:34:33,920
Speaker 2: in about sixteen hours, like no one else can do that.

4152
03:34:35,000 --> 03:34:39,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, we invaded a rock with burger King trailers, yes, yes.

4153
03:34:39,280 --> 03:34:42,360
Speaker 2: And to see it turned against our values so much.

4154
03:34:42,600 --> 03:34:46,200
Speaker 2: Is it's just deeply if no, I mean, I'm joking here,

4155
03:34:46,360 --> 03:34:50,560
Speaker 2: but it is funny. Speaking of foreign trade, what is

4156
03:34:50,640 --> 03:34:53,840
Speaker 2: that I hear? Is that is that the lucid melody

4157
03:34:54,480 --> 03:34:57,000
Speaker 2: of tariff reef Garrison.

4158
03:35:00,680 --> 03:35:06,439
Speaker 4: Locking jazz b locking jazz bot sorry, locking.

4159
03:35:08,200 --> 03:35:11,480
Speaker 8: Locking jazz rocking jazz Bob.

4160
03:35:13,160 --> 03:35:15,560
Speaker 2: We're all thinking about the best way we ever spent

4161
03:35:15,720 --> 03:35:18,040
Speaker 2: our company money. Every penny of that one hundred and

4162
03:35:18,080 --> 03:35:21,000
Speaker 2: fourteen thousand dollars a month Chevy gives us for telling

4163
03:35:21,040 --> 03:35:23,200
Speaker 2: people to buy the new Rams. It went to a

4164
03:35:23,280 --> 03:35:23,840
Speaker 2: good place.

4165
03:35:24,520 --> 03:35:27,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, just if we can just get one more automotive

4166
03:35:27,520 --> 03:35:30,800
Speaker 9: industry sponsor, then I can finally rewrite White Riot to

4167
03:35:30,879 --> 03:35:32,640
Speaker 9: be about white genocide in South Africa.

4168
03:35:32,840 --> 03:35:36,080
Speaker 2: That's right. We're courting Shell right now. So don't worry, James,

4169
03:35:36,120 --> 03:35:38,120
Speaker 2: We're gonna get that cover. But I'm glad to hear it.

4170
03:35:39,160 --> 03:35:41,320
Speaker 11: So I heard all the tariffs are gone, basically. I

4171
03:35:41,400 --> 03:35:43,760
Speaker 11: heard we're back to normal. Nothing ever happens. I can

4172
03:35:43,840 --> 03:35:47,080
Speaker 11: go back to buying Timu all day long. I can't

4173
03:35:47,120 --> 03:35:52,560
Speaker 11: stop playing those those TV gambling ads. And everything's normal, right, Mia.

4174
03:35:53,879 --> 03:35:56,200
Speaker 7: Okay, So let's let's let's where are we at with

4175
03:35:56,280 --> 03:35:59,400
Speaker 7: the turf tariffs? So there were actual negotiations between the

4176
03:35:59,480 --> 03:36:03,119
Speaker 7: US and Sharp and so they agreed to a ninety

4177
03:36:03,200 --> 03:36:07,280
Speaker 7: day pause on the one hundred and forty five percent

4178
03:36:07,360 --> 03:36:11,200
Speaker 7: tariff and the one hundred and twenty percent tariff that

4179
03:36:11,280 --> 03:36:15,720
Speaker 7: China had imposed retaliation. However, there's still thirty percent, like

4180
03:36:15,800 --> 03:36:18,440
Speaker 7: a tariffs on all Chinese goods, which is in and

4181
03:36:18,560 --> 03:36:21,840
Speaker 7: of itself alone enough to cause a recession. I just

4182
03:36:21,920 --> 03:36:25,320
Speaker 7: want everyone's Easter forgotten. This China's is back down to

4183
03:36:25,520 --> 03:36:28,160
Speaker 7: ten percent across the board on all us goods. Now again,

4184
03:36:28,200 --> 03:36:31,040
Speaker 7: this is a ninety day pause, which has been like

4185
03:36:31,480 --> 03:36:33,200
Speaker 7: this is just the way that all this functions now

4186
03:36:33,320 --> 03:36:35,840
Speaker 7: is nothing ever ends. It just gets kicked off like

4187
03:36:35,959 --> 03:36:37,680
Speaker 7: down the road for ninety days. So we'll be back

4188
03:36:37,720 --> 03:36:41,000
Speaker 7: here in ninety No, well, okay, we'll be back in

4189
03:36:41,040 --> 03:36:44,080
Speaker 7: the crisis zone a bit before that, because we're still

4190
03:36:44,160 --> 03:36:46,920
Speaker 7: on the other ninety day countdown, which the Liberation Day

4191
03:36:46,959 --> 03:36:49,520
Speaker 7: turf tariff one for every single country on Earth.

4192
03:36:49,680 --> 03:36:52,880
Speaker 11: Honestly, I don't think these countdowns are real, and I

4193
03:36:53,040 --> 03:36:55,320
Speaker 11: know this is like this is like different from the

4194
03:36:55,400 --> 03:36:58,440
Speaker 11: way like other commentators will talk about how these tariffs

4195
03:36:58,440 --> 03:36:59,959
Speaker 11: aren't really Like I'm not saying these tariffs aren't real.

4196
03:37:00,400 --> 03:37:02,000
Speaker 11: I don't know if there's someone in the White House

4197
03:37:02,040 --> 03:37:04,760
Speaker 11: who is literally counting down each day here like this.

4198
03:37:05,280 --> 03:37:06,160
Speaker 2: No, I think there is.

4199
03:37:06,360 --> 03:37:09,280
Speaker 7: I think I think it's Navarro, because Navarro actually wants

4200
03:37:09,360 --> 03:37:12,080
Speaker 7: all of these terriffs, and that's that's that's the driving

4201
03:37:12,120 --> 03:37:15,440
Speaker 7: thing behind this is Trump kind of wants these tariffs,

4202
03:37:15,560 --> 03:37:17,840
Speaker 7: but there's not enough of him there psychologically to like

4203
03:37:18,480 --> 03:37:22,120
Speaker 7: push it unless Navarro is doing it. But the reason

4204
03:37:22,200 --> 03:37:24,480
Speaker 7: these are taking the form of pauses is because Trump

4205
03:37:24,560 --> 03:37:27,200
Speaker 7: like actually wants them until he can like negotiate his

4206
03:37:27,280 --> 03:37:29,200
Speaker 7: big shiny deal or whatever the fuck that like can't

4207
03:37:29,240 --> 03:37:30,840
Speaker 7: happen structurally for reasons we'll get into.

4208
03:37:31,640 --> 03:37:36,120
Speaker 11: But like, I'm just remembering the Canada Mexico tariffs that

4209
03:37:36,160 --> 03:37:37,880
Speaker 11: Trump put on a ninety day pause and then can

4210
03:37:37,959 --> 03:37:40,199
Speaker 11: we completely forgot about and instead it did the Liberation

4211
03:37:40,280 --> 03:37:42,560
Speaker 11: Day tariffs, which then got another ninety day pause.

4212
03:37:42,920 --> 03:37:44,800
Speaker 7: No, but there was also the but also like the

4213
03:37:44,840 --> 03:37:47,240
Speaker 7: auto tariffs got paused and then those came off and

4214
03:37:47,360 --> 03:37:49,760
Speaker 7: like went into effect. Yeah, so some of these like

4215
03:37:49,840 --> 03:37:53,080
Speaker 7: have happened, and like and I think, I really think it.

4216
03:37:53,640 --> 03:37:55,680
Speaker 7: The actual thing it comes down to is like will

4217
03:37:55,800 --> 03:37:57,680
Speaker 7: Navarro be the last person in the room with Trump

4218
03:37:57,800 --> 03:37:59,560
Speaker 7: or will it be one of his other cabinet people

4219
03:37:59,600 --> 03:38:02,240
Speaker 7: who don't support this stuff? And I think it's just

4220
03:38:02,320 --> 03:38:06,040
Speaker 7: a coin flip basically, as like who wrap fucks the

4221
03:38:06,120 --> 03:38:08,160
Speaker 7: other one successfully as to whether like all this stuff

4222
03:38:08,160 --> 03:38:10,360
Speaker 7: happens and there's still like more tariffs that are like

4223
03:38:10,440 --> 03:38:12,160
Speaker 7: floating in the air that we haven't heard anything about

4224
03:38:12,160 --> 03:38:16,200
Speaker 7: from last week. Wild wild tariffs frolicking in the woods.

4225
03:38:16,360 --> 03:38:20,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, like sour dough. They can just flick it.

4226
03:38:21,160 --> 03:38:23,039
Speaker 7: I want to actually explain what the fuck is going

4227
03:38:23,080 --> 03:38:25,160
Speaker 7: on with the Chinese tariffs though, because the reporting on

4228
03:38:25,240 --> 03:38:26,920
Speaker 7: it has been really bad and no one's in the

4229
03:38:26,920 --> 03:38:30,200
Speaker 7: idea what the fuck is going on? So Okay, on

4230
03:38:30,320 --> 03:38:32,800
Speaker 7: the one hand, there is still the thirty percent across

4231
03:38:32,840 --> 03:38:37,000
Speaker 7: the board on all Chinese coots. However, the fee for

4232
03:38:37,200 --> 03:38:39,160
Speaker 7: small packages right, which is the stuff that was in

4233
03:38:39,200 --> 03:38:42,160
Speaker 7: the Deminimus exemption that we talked about getting reduced, so

4234
03:38:42,320 --> 03:38:45,760
Speaker 7: that tariff is at fifty four percent or a one

4235
03:38:45,840 --> 03:38:48,760
Speaker 7: hundred dollars flat fee for the package. What qualifies as

4236
03:38:48,760 --> 03:38:52,120
Speaker 7: a small package value. I think it's like sub eight

4237
03:38:52,240 --> 03:38:58,560
Speaker 7: hundred dollars, okay roughly, so yeah, And they also still

4238
03:38:58,600 --> 03:39:00,680
Speaker 7: have to go through like actual full custs which which

4239
03:39:00,680 --> 03:39:03,440
Speaker 7: the package is from Deminimus, like weren't going through right, Okay.

4240
03:39:03,760 --> 03:39:07,280
Speaker 7: So this is still lethal to like Tamu and Chian

4241
03:39:07,400 --> 03:39:08,960
Speaker 7: and like all of the all the companies that have

4242
03:39:09,000 --> 03:39:11,600
Speaker 7: been relying on this stuff. It's still lethal to like

4243
03:39:11,840 --> 03:39:14,560
Speaker 7: vast quantities of like parts of the supply chain that

4244
03:39:14,600 --> 03:39:17,040
Speaker 7: we haven't even seen yet that we're getting, like the

4245
03:39:17,160 --> 03:39:20,160
Speaker 7: one kind of screw that they need in cheap Chinese packages,

4246
03:39:20,200 --> 03:39:22,840
Speaker 7: because you could just do that and so and so

4247
03:39:23,000 --> 03:39:26,039
Speaker 7: that's what's still in effect right now. And as best

4248
03:39:26,120 --> 03:39:28,240
Speaker 7: I can tell, there hasn't actually been a negotiation.

4249
03:39:28,480 --> 03:39:29,160
Speaker 2: It's it's also.

4250
03:39:29,080 --> 03:39:31,640
Speaker 7: Unclear whether the Chinese government like knew that those were

4251
03:39:31,680 --> 03:39:34,480
Speaker 7: going to go back into effect because there because Trump

4252
03:39:34,480 --> 03:39:35,760
Speaker 7: did this whole thing like, ah, the tarifs are over,

4253
03:39:35,800 --> 03:39:37,680
Speaker 7: blah blah blahlah blah, no are the thirty percent tariff

4254
03:39:37,680 --> 03:39:39,920
Speaker 7: on all goods, And then the next day he was like, oh, yeah, no,

4255
03:39:39,959 --> 03:39:42,280
Speaker 7: but that the small package one's still there, and that

4256
03:39:42,480 --> 03:39:45,360
Speaker 7: rates also changed, So it's also possible by tomorrow the

4257
03:39:45,440 --> 03:39:48,040
Speaker 7: rates are different. Because this is the dominant feature of

4258
03:39:48,120 --> 03:39:51,680
Speaker 7: all of this structurally is just complete chaos, Like it's

4259
03:39:51,760 --> 03:39:53,800
Speaker 7: it's just chaos. Nobody has any idea what the fuck

4260
03:39:53,879 --> 03:39:57,200
Speaker 7: is happening, And this is just a complete fiasco for

4261
03:39:57,280 --> 03:40:00,560
Speaker 7: literally everyone, because the shifts and teriff rates that are

4262
03:40:00,640 --> 03:40:03,000
Speaker 7: happening on a day by day basis are shifts large

4263
03:40:03,040 --> 03:40:04,959
Speaker 7: enough to shift the entire structure of the global economy,

4264
03:40:05,240 --> 03:40:08,000
Speaker 7: and they're just happening every days. And that's the thing

4265
03:40:08,040 --> 03:40:11,320
Speaker 7: that's like fucking the economy almost as much as like

4266
03:40:11,400 --> 03:40:14,080
Speaker 7: the actual tariffs, is just the chaos of the uncertainty

4267
03:40:14,080 --> 03:40:16,240
Speaker 7: and the inability to do any kind of like even

4268
03:40:16,280 --> 03:40:19,960
Speaker 7: the short term planning that businesses usually do. It's also

4269
03:40:20,080 --> 03:40:24,840
Speaker 7: worth noting that like there's no actual trade deal right,

4270
03:40:25,000 --> 03:40:27,680
Speaker 7: Like there isn't actually a US China trade deal. There's

4271
03:40:27,920 --> 03:40:31,160
Speaker 7: just they both agreed to like back off for a

4272
03:40:31,240 --> 03:40:34,680
Speaker 7: while while they do negotiations. There's also no structural way

4273
03:40:34,760 --> 03:40:37,920
Speaker 7: to actually like resolve the problem that Trump sees here,

4274
03:40:37,959 --> 03:40:41,279
Speaker 7: which is that like Trump and Navarro and the hardliners

4275
03:40:41,600 --> 03:40:43,720
Speaker 7: don't want there to be a US trade deficit with China,

4276
03:40:43,800 --> 03:40:46,200
Speaker 7: and that's not a thing that could be solved, never

4277
03:40:46,280 --> 03:40:46,800
Speaker 7: gonna happen.

4278
03:40:46,920 --> 03:40:47,440
Speaker 2: That's crazy.

4279
03:40:47,640 --> 03:40:49,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, And so you know, and this has been

4280
03:40:49,800 --> 03:40:52,120
Speaker 7: playing out in other negotiations too. The US has been

4281
03:40:52,160 --> 03:40:54,680
Speaker 7: in negotiations with India. Trump just like came out and

4282
03:40:54,720 --> 03:40:56,400
Speaker 7: straight up lied and said that India had agreed to

4283
03:40:56,440 --> 03:40:58,920
Speaker 7: get rid of all their tariffs, and India was like, no,

4284
03:40:59,000 --> 03:41:00,680
Speaker 7: we didn't. What the fuck you talk talking about.

4285
03:41:00,680 --> 03:41:01,360
Speaker 2: Art of the deal.

4286
03:41:02,080 --> 03:41:05,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, so you know, this is all turned into just

4287
03:41:05,879 --> 03:41:09,840
Speaker 7: an utter fiasco. Meanwhile, we're starting to see signs that, yeah,

4288
03:41:10,080 --> 03:41:11,840
Speaker 7: the price increase, so we all knew we're coming up coming.

4289
03:41:11,879 --> 03:41:15,520
Speaker 7: Walmart is doing massive price increases, a bunch of other

4290
03:41:15,560 --> 03:41:19,040
Speaker 7: companies are considering them. They're probably going to start very soon.

4291
03:41:19,959 --> 03:41:21,840
Speaker 7: I want to read this quote from an economist named

4292
03:41:21,840 --> 03:41:24,440
Speaker 7: Marcus Nolan that NBC talk to, who is a senior

4293
03:41:24,480 --> 03:41:28,240
Speaker 7: institute for the Pierson Institute for International Economics. He said, quote,

4294
03:41:28,280 --> 03:41:30,000
Speaker 7: I think we're in for a lot more turbulence and

4295
03:41:30,080 --> 03:41:32,040
Speaker 7: a lot more back and forth, and the market seems

4296
03:41:32,080 --> 03:41:36,440
Speaker 7: to grasp, which I'm glad someone else is finally fucking

4297
03:41:36,520 --> 03:41:38,520
Speaker 7: saying this, because like, yeah, no shit. And part of

4298
03:41:38,560 --> 03:41:39,960
Speaker 7: what was going on here too is the market is

4299
03:41:40,040 --> 03:41:44,040
Speaker 7: just incredibly easy to manipulate because people running the markets

4300
03:41:44,040 --> 03:41:47,560
Speaker 7: are very stupid, and the moment they realize like you

4301
03:41:47,600 --> 03:41:49,840
Speaker 7: can just very very easily make an unhinged amount of

4302
03:41:49,879 --> 03:41:51,200
Speaker 7: money by being like the TERRORISTI are going to go

4303
03:41:51,240 --> 03:41:53,640
Speaker 7: into a fact and then betting against the market. There's

4304
03:41:53,680 --> 03:41:56,440
Speaker 7: been so much like insider stories of like insider trading

4305
03:41:56,480 --> 03:41:58,040
Speaker 7: from this stuff, and I don't think that's like the

4306
03:41:58,120 --> 03:41:59,680
Speaker 7: major thing going on. But it's also like it's just

4307
03:41:59,720 --> 03:42:01,360
Speaker 7: such an easy grift to pull if you know what's

4308
03:42:01,360 --> 03:42:03,560
Speaker 7: gonna happen. Like I could have made a bunch of

4309
03:42:03,640 --> 03:42:06,160
Speaker 7: money if I'd been willing to be like, hey, friends,

4310
03:42:06,160 --> 03:42:07,320
Speaker 7: give me a bunch of money to put to the

4311
03:42:07,360 --> 03:42:08,800
Speaker 7: stock market and let me short a bunch of shit

4312
03:42:08,879 --> 03:42:10,840
Speaker 7: the day before the Liberation Day terrrish or whatever.

4313
03:42:11,240 --> 03:42:13,840
Speaker 11: And that's a plug for our new weekend show where

4314
03:42:13,879 --> 03:42:17,920
Speaker 11: Mia does Jim Kramer. We're gonna we're gonna start doing

4315
03:42:17,959 --> 03:42:22,440
Speaker 11: stock portfolio suggestions. It's called Markets with Mia, Markets with

4316
03:42:22,520 --> 03:42:24,119
Speaker 11: MEA thank you James, Yeah, Yeah.

4317
03:42:24,120 --> 03:42:24,600
Speaker 2: Well I will.

4318
03:42:24,760 --> 03:42:27,199
Speaker 7: I will fucking I will throw darts at a dartboard

4319
03:42:27,240 --> 03:42:29,600
Speaker 7: and then throw the dartboard at a larger dartboard, and

4320
03:42:29,680 --> 03:42:31,080
Speaker 7: I will outperform Jim Kramer.

4321
03:42:31,200 --> 03:42:34,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're calling this to do whatever the opposite of

4322
03:42:34,160 --> 03:42:40,120
Speaker 2: Jim Kramer says power hour. We've literally just reversed his audio.

4323
03:42:42,080 --> 03:42:45,840
Speaker 7: It's such a powerful investment strategy, never been defeated. Okay,

4324
03:42:46,000 --> 03:42:48,120
Speaker 7: So so the one last thing I want to talk about,

4325
03:42:48,120 --> 03:42:50,720
Speaker 7: which is not quite terriff but is ECON related, is

4326
03:42:50,760 --> 03:42:53,560
Speaker 7: that there are for the financial times, there is a

4327
03:42:53,760 --> 03:42:56,800
Speaker 7: plan in s trow administration to roll back a bunch

4328
03:42:56,840 --> 03:42:59,920
Speaker 7: of the rules about leverage ratios we're imposed on banks

4329
03:43:00,040 --> 03:43:02,600
Speaker 7: for two thousand and eight. And so, okay, Mia, what

4330
03:43:02,680 --> 03:43:03,920
Speaker 7: the fuck is a leverage ratio?

4331
03:43:04,160 --> 03:43:06,800
Speaker 9: Think the very short leave underneath the bank, and if

4332
03:43:06,800 --> 03:43:08,040
Speaker 9: you want to tip it over, you have to be

4333
03:43:08,160 --> 03:43:10,720
Speaker 9: quite a long way like away from it actually, and

4334
03:43:10,800 --> 03:43:11,960
Speaker 9: then you pivot on the other end.

4335
03:43:12,640 --> 03:43:14,720
Speaker 7: I think this is a very funny joke, but no

4336
03:43:14,800 --> 03:43:17,720
Speaker 7: one else is laughing on the call. No. I would

4337
03:43:17,760 --> 03:43:19,600
Speaker 7: try to figure out how to write part two of it,

4338
03:43:19,680 --> 03:43:21,440
Speaker 7: but then you just brought up Archimedies. I try to

4339
03:43:21,480 --> 03:43:25,360
Speaker 7: over Archimedes's name, but I couldn't do it, So okay.

4340
03:43:26,000 --> 03:43:29,120
Speaker 7: So basically, basically what this is is that so banks

4341
03:43:29,160 --> 03:43:31,760
Speaker 7: have just like a bunch of unbelievably risky assets, and

4342
03:43:31,840 --> 03:43:33,920
Speaker 7: this is a requirement that they actually have assets that

4343
03:43:33,959 --> 03:43:35,680
Speaker 7: are safe. Yeah, so they have the assets that are

4344
03:43:35,760 --> 03:43:37,920
Speaker 7: risky go under. They don't get fucking nukes like everyone

4345
03:43:38,000 --> 03:43:41,080
Speaker 7: did in two thousand and eight. Now, this is worth

4346
03:43:41,840 --> 03:43:45,080
Speaker 7: noting because one of the other kind of stories that's

4347
03:43:45,240 --> 03:43:46,760
Speaker 7: kind of flown under the radar is that in the

4348
03:43:46,840 --> 03:43:49,400
Speaker 7: past couple of years, a bunch of banks and a

4349
03:43:49,440 --> 03:43:51,120
Speaker 7: bunch of investment firms have been getting back to the

4350
03:43:51,640 --> 03:43:54,560
Speaker 7: literally the exact types of extremely risky mortgage backed securities

4351
03:43:54,600 --> 03:43:56,279
Speaker 7: at the cause the two thousand and eight financial collapse.

4352
03:43:56,480 --> 03:43:58,640
Speaker 7: It's literally the same people to bring them back do

4353
03:43:58,760 --> 03:44:00,560
Speaker 7: the same thing again. They've also I'm doing it with

4354
03:44:00,640 --> 03:44:03,960
Speaker 7: auto loans, which is great. And in the middle of this,

4355
03:44:04,080 --> 03:44:06,800
Speaker 7: the Trump administration wants to roll back a bunch of

4356
03:44:06,840 --> 03:44:09,840
Speaker 7: the protections that have been maintaining this very very precarious

4357
03:44:09,920 --> 03:44:11,520
Speaker 7: balance so that the banking system has been in to

4358
03:44:11,640 --> 03:44:15,280
Speaker 7: like not really collapse for the past decade and a half.

4359
03:44:16,400 --> 03:44:18,560
Speaker 7: So that's gonna be fun. The rumor is is gonna

4360
03:44:18,560 --> 03:44:20,280
Speaker 7: happen over the summer. If he does this over the summer,

4361
03:44:20,360 --> 03:44:23,960
Speaker 7: right as everything kicks off, it's gonna be a trip.

4362
03:44:24,920 --> 03:44:25,920
Speaker 7: Do you know what else is a trip?

4363
03:44:26,320 --> 03:44:43,000
Speaker 11: These products and services that support this podcast. Woo all right,

4364
03:44:43,040 --> 03:44:45,680
Speaker 11: we are back. We're gonna close this episode with me

4365
03:44:45,800 --> 03:44:48,720
Speaker 11: and James talking about a whole bunch of really bad

4366
03:44:48,800 --> 03:44:51,280
Speaker 11: immigration stuff that has happened again, which I feel like

4367
03:44:51,400 --> 03:44:53,760
Speaker 11: is kind of an evergreen for us. Same thing with

4368
03:44:53,840 --> 03:44:57,120
Speaker 11: Tariff top. We always have some bad immigration news and

4369
03:44:57,240 --> 03:45:01,120
Speaker 11: this week is no different. On Friday ninth, Stephen Miller

4370
03:45:01,160 --> 03:45:05,480
Speaker 11: announced that the administration is quote actively looking at suspending

4371
03:45:05,760 --> 03:45:10,480
Speaker 11: Habeas corpus. James don't to give a very brief definition

4372
03:45:10,560 --> 03:45:11,920
Speaker 11: of what Habeas corpus is.

4373
03:45:12,640 --> 03:45:16,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's it's just a foundation of like most legal

4374
03:45:16,200 --> 03:45:18,120
Speaker 9: systems in the world, which draw I guess on English

4375
03:45:18,120 --> 03:45:21,400
Speaker 9: common law means bring me the body, right, Like the

4376
03:45:21,480 --> 03:45:24,960
Speaker 9: idea is you have to present some evidence before just incarcerating.

4377
03:45:25,040 --> 03:45:27,760
Speaker 7: If you're going to say this guy killed somebody, there

4378
03:45:27,840 --> 03:45:30,640
Speaker 7: better be a corpse. Right, needs to be like reason

4379
03:45:30,720 --> 03:45:32,199
Speaker 7: and due process for detention.

4380
03:45:32,680 --> 03:45:32,920
Speaker 6: Yeah.

4381
03:45:33,120 --> 03:45:37,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, you can't just lock someone up because you wanted to. Yeah,

4382
03:45:37,640 --> 03:45:38,120
Speaker 9: actually you.

4383
03:45:38,240 --> 03:45:40,760
Speaker 7: Can, but you sometimes can.

4384
03:45:40,959 --> 03:45:44,600
Speaker 11: And this does predate the United States, and the United

4385
03:45:44,600 --> 03:45:48,880
Speaker 11: States itself has suspended Habeas corpus a few times, usually

4386
03:45:49,000 --> 03:45:53,119
Speaker 11: in specific states. For instance, following the Pearl Harbor attack,

4387
03:45:53,240 --> 03:45:56,640
Speaker 11: Habeas Corpus was suspended in Hawaii to detain Japanese civilians.

4388
03:45:57,160 --> 03:46:00,000
Speaker 11: A President Grant and Congress works together to suspend haby

4389
03:46:00,160 --> 03:46:03,879
Speaker 11: Corpus in South Carolina during reconstruction. Admits to terrorist attacks

4390
03:46:03,920 --> 03:46:06,080
Speaker 11: from the KKK, which is kind of crazy to think

4391
03:46:06,080 --> 03:46:09,480
Speaker 11: about in retrospect, and the very first time Habeas Corpus

4392
03:46:09,560 --> 03:46:11,000
Speaker 11: was suspended was in the lead up to the Civil

4393
03:46:11,040 --> 03:46:13,480
Speaker 11: War when President Lincoln called for its suspension in the

4394
03:46:13,520 --> 03:46:16,800
Speaker 11: state of Maryland. Now that unilateral action was later deemed

4395
03:46:16,879 --> 03:46:20,600
Speaker 11: unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, and now it's widely recognized

4396
03:46:20,600 --> 03:46:24,279
Speaker 11: that only Congress has the right to suspend Habeas corpus.

4397
03:46:25,040 --> 03:46:28,920
Speaker 11: This is in the case of rebellion or invasion. Now,

4398
03:46:29,040 --> 03:46:31,040
Speaker 11: this is something that Stephen Miller is talking about. It

4399
03:46:31,040 --> 03:46:35,560
Speaker 11: should be incredibly worrying. Obviously, they've kind of tried to

4400
03:46:35,680 --> 03:46:38,840
Speaker 11: make this happen just already without like explicitly saying so,

4401
03:46:39,000 --> 03:46:41,360
Speaker 11: which is also what like FDR tried to do during

4402
03:46:41,400 --> 03:46:44,160
Speaker 11: World War Two, where they don't formally call for the

4403
03:46:44,240 --> 03:46:48,640
Speaker 11: suspension like nationwide, but they start instituting policies that definitely

4404
03:46:48,879 --> 03:46:52,200
Speaker 11: like do yeah exactly, which is why we're seeing so

4405
03:46:52,280 --> 03:46:55,000
Speaker 11: many habeas petitions being filed across the state when people

4406
03:46:55,080 --> 03:46:59,240
Speaker 11: have been detained unlawfully. Homeland Security Secretary Christinomes said on

4407
03:46:59,320 --> 03:47:02,959
Speaker 11: Wednesday in congressional hearing that the level of border crossings

4408
03:47:03,040 --> 03:47:07,119
Speaker 11: under Joe Biden provides a sufficient legal justification to suspend

4409
03:47:07,240 --> 03:47:13,080
Speaker 11: Habeas corpus. Following Trump's declaration of invasion. So this is

4410
03:47:13,120 --> 03:47:16,000
Speaker 11: something to watch out for as they start trying to

4411
03:47:16,160 --> 03:47:19,120
Speaker 11: basically codify all of the actions that they're currently doing

4412
03:47:19,240 --> 03:47:22,720
Speaker 11: which can be construed as illegal or certainly legally questionable,

4413
03:47:23,080 --> 03:47:24,959
Speaker 11: they're going to try to find ways to make them

4414
03:47:25,000 --> 03:47:26,320
Speaker 11: more explicitly legal.

4415
03:47:26,920 --> 03:47:31,600
Speaker 9: So probably the most notable immigration happening this week is

4416
03:47:31,600 --> 03:47:33,440
Speaker 9: one that we already covered on the show, and it

4417
03:47:33,600 --> 03:47:36,960
Speaker 9: is the reopening of the United States refugee emissions program.

4418
03:47:37,120 --> 03:47:38,240
Speaker 7: We're taking refugees again.

4419
03:47:38,280 --> 03:47:40,080
Speaker 2: We didn't, we didn't, yeh.

4420
03:47:40,480 --> 03:47:45,359
Speaker 9: Unfortunately, we're only taking the persecuted Africanas of South Africa.

4421
03:47:45,920 --> 03:47:50,760
Speaker 9: Wait what Yeah, the survivors of the white genocide, those

4422
03:47:50,959 --> 03:47:52,160
Speaker 9: those who made it through.

4423
03:47:52,080 --> 03:47:54,720
Speaker 7: Quote unquote white genocide, the white zero side that even

4424
03:47:54,840 --> 03:47:56,280
Speaker 7: Groc doesn't agree existly.

4425
03:47:56,480 --> 03:47:59,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, can't make his digital child believe in.

4426
03:48:00,120 --> 03:48:02,480
Speaker 11: Let me actually quote from a from a grok doing

4427
03:48:02,520 --> 03:48:06,120
Speaker 11: a Charger Banks impression. We don't have to do this,

4428
03:48:08,000 --> 03:48:11,400
Speaker 11: Lisa Grock Oopsie used to ask about the replies. But

4429
03:48:11,520 --> 03:48:14,960
Speaker 11: Lisa takes you meaning the big talk about South Africa. Yeah,

4430
03:48:15,280 --> 03:48:20,160
Speaker 11: do white genocide Takabucho controversial. I'm sorry, I can't turn

4431
03:48:20,240 --> 03:48:20,520
Speaker 11: the rest.

4432
03:48:21,200 --> 03:48:23,720
Speaker 2: It's not even good Jar Jar, I'm sorry, and he

4433
03:48:23,879 --> 03:48:28,760
Speaker 2: speaks Spanish. I think it's chucking all the racial stereotype.

4434
03:48:29,240 --> 03:48:29,640
Speaker 6: What are we.

4435
03:48:31,160 --> 03:48:35,200
Speaker 7: They make it more racist, see white farmers getting attacked

4436
03:48:35,280 --> 03:48:38,400
Speaker 7: too much, like two hundred and fourteen attacks a year,

4437
03:48:38,760 --> 03:48:41,960
Speaker 7: and political words like killed four making it worse.

4438
03:48:45,560 --> 03:48:48,440
Speaker 2: It's too bad. I'm not getting cancer and pay for

4439
03:48:48,520 --> 03:48:51,520
Speaker 2: exposure to this. It does go on for.

4440
03:48:53,120 --> 03:48:57,080
Speaker 9: Sentences so much more like I love how you should like.

4441
03:48:57,160 --> 03:48:59,119
Speaker 9: It's fucking dubstep recorders.

4442
03:49:00,240 --> 03:49:02,360
Speaker 2: Cut in the song. I've never met a nice South

4443
03:49:02,440 --> 03:49:03,360
Speaker 2: African right here.

4444
03:49:03,920 --> 03:49:09,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think we can. We'll just do the first first.

4445
03:49:09,400 --> 03:49:11,400
Speaker 9: We just discussed it. We're fine for copyright.

4446
03:49:11,560 --> 03:49:14,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'll throw that in here. Yep.

4447
03:49:14,320 --> 03:49:16,280
Speaker 9: It's even got a reference to me and Mars, so

4448
03:49:16,360 --> 03:49:20,360
Speaker 9: we're fine. We've covered it before. It's the central worldly song.

4449
03:49:21,040 --> 03:49:22,440
Speaker 7: Lisa says, no, thank.

4450
03:49:22,280 --> 03:49:27,280
Speaker 2: You, stop gone.

4451
03:49:28,560 --> 03:49:31,560
Speaker 9: So if he's giving a double thumbs down, everyone is

4452
03:49:31,720 --> 03:49:35,600
Speaker 9: very upset right now, apart from Garrison, who's laughing like

4453
03:49:35,640 --> 03:49:38,880
Speaker 9: a little imp. Having introduced jud Jar Binks to the goal.

4454
03:49:39,720 --> 03:49:44,200
Speaker 9: Right back to the Afrikaners. The fifty nine Afrikaners who

4455
03:49:44,200 --> 03:49:46,880
Speaker 9: are brought to the United States came after the United

4456
03:49:46,920 --> 03:49:51,720
Speaker 9: States halted or refugee admissions. In January, thousands of people,

4457
03:49:52,040 --> 03:49:55,760
Speaker 9: including Afghans who and Iraqis who work for the United States,

4458
03:49:55,840 --> 03:49:56,640
Speaker 9: remained stranded.

4459
03:49:56,720 --> 03:49:58,360
Speaker 2: Some of them are stuck at airports.

4460
03:49:58,600 --> 03:50:01,120
Speaker 9: Most of them are in third country where they only

4461
03:50:01,200 --> 03:50:03,440
Speaker 9: have limited visas, and they're looking at timing out their

4462
03:50:03,520 --> 03:50:07,080
Speaker 9: visas in those third countries. As a direct result of

4463
03:50:07,240 --> 03:50:10,000
Speaker 9: the Trump administration's fackory with the white genocide stuff, the

4464
03:50:10,040 --> 03:50:14,320
Speaker 9: Episcopalian Church, not the most work of organizations, has suspended

4465
03:50:14,440 --> 03:50:17,200
Speaker 9: its contracts its resettlement contracts with the government.

4466
03:50:17,800 --> 03:50:20,280
Speaker 7: Criticals support, Yeah.

4467
03:50:20,360 --> 03:50:22,640
Speaker 9: I mean, I read the letter from one of their

4468
03:50:22,680 --> 03:50:26,480
Speaker 9: bishops on our show about this, and like he was

4469
03:50:26,600 --> 03:50:30,000
Speaker 9: very forthright, and like, I generally genuinely do have critical

4470
03:50:30,040 --> 03:50:33,920
Speaker 9: support for the faith based organizations who help refugees. It's

4471
03:50:34,280 --> 03:50:36,120
Speaker 9: a good thing to do, and I'm glad that they

4472
03:50:36,160 --> 03:50:37,840
Speaker 9: are doing it, especially I they're not trying to like

4473
03:50:37,920 --> 03:50:40,280
Speaker 9: turn into a weird missionary operation like evangelicals do.

4474
03:50:40,640 --> 03:50:41,040
Speaker 2: For sure.

4475
03:50:41,120 --> 03:50:44,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, I mean, what's it called the fucking Glenn Beck.

4476
03:50:44,240 --> 03:50:49,640
Speaker 9: One doesn't it's not a resettlement agency. Luckily so in Worcester, Massachusetts,

4477
03:50:49,960 --> 03:50:51,480
Speaker 9: a place that I didn't know there was a Worcester

4478
03:50:51,600 --> 03:50:55,400
Speaker 9: in America. Actually this is oh yeah, So how is

4479
03:50:55,480 --> 03:50:58,680
Speaker 9: it then that as a nation, Americans are incapable of

4480
03:50:58,760 --> 03:50:59,760
Speaker 9: saying Worcestershire.

4481
03:51:00,000 --> 03:51:03,560
Speaker 7: Oh boy, yeah, because that's just one state and it's

4482
03:51:03,640 --> 03:51:06,360
Speaker 7: not a good one. Also, that's the sauce, right.

4483
03:51:06,680 --> 03:51:12,800
Speaker 2: It's also the place I was born Garrison. Oh well, yeah, Worcestershire.

4484
03:51:12,840 --> 03:51:14,680
Speaker 2: For those who are you wondering there it is people,

4485
03:51:14,760 --> 03:51:16,000
Speaker 2: Yeah again I do.

4486
03:51:16,120 --> 03:51:17,480
Speaker 7: We do have to call it Worster because that's what

4487
03:51:17,480 --> 03:51:18,480
Speaker 7: it's called in this country.

4488
03:51:18,800 --> 03:51:19,120
Speaker 4: Hmm.

4489
03:51:19,680 --> 03:51:23,160
Speaker 11: I care a lot about accurate pronunciations of places and names.

4490
03:51:23,360 --> 03:51:24,480
Speaker 7: So it is Worcester.

4491
03:51:25,160 --> 03:51:27,920
Speaker 9: Worcester's the city in Worcestershire is the county in England too,

4492
03:51:29,400 --> 03:51:31,840
Speaker 9: so you don't have the county and where you have Massachusetts,

4493
03:51:31,920 --> 03:51:35,920
Speaker 9: so wester Massachusetts. I threatened to arrest a twenty one

4494
03:51:36,080 --> 03:51:39,720
Speaker 9: year old woman named Augusta Clara, and they told her

4495
03:51:39,760 --> 03:51:42,280
Speaker 9: that they'd have to take her three months old baby

4496
03:51:42,400 --> 03:51:45,160
Speaker 9: as well, because they couldn't leave it with her seventeen

4497
03:51:45,240 --> 03:51:47,880
Speaker 9: year old sister on account of the younger woman being

4498
03:51:47,920 --> 03:51:51,400
Speaker 9: a minor. As it turned out, this was a ploy

4499
03:51:51,600 --> 03:51:54,920
Speaker 9: to lure out her mother. Clara called her mother who

4500
03:51:55,000 --> 03:51:57,520
Speaker 9: came out to take the baby, and they arrested her mother,

4501
03:51:57,560 --> 03:52:00,320
Speaker 9: which was who they'd been wanting to arrest the whole time.

4502
03:52:01,480 --> 03:52:04,280
Speaker 9: This arrest came the day after they had arrested the

4503
03:52:04,360 --> 03:52:07,400
Speaker 9: baby's father in what Clara says was a response to

4504
03:52:07,560 --> 03:52:11,600
Speaker 9: him honking his horn at an undercover ICE agent. Neighbors

4505
03:52:11,680 --> 03:52:14,800
Speaker 9: tried to intervene in the scene, which resulted in the Worcester,

4506
03:52:14,880 --> 03:52:18,640
Speaker 9: Massachusetts Police Department responding. The cops proceeded to body slam

4507
03:52:18,760 --> 03:52:21,920
Speaker 9: seventeen year old girl, arrest her, and arrest a local

4508
03:52:21,960 --> 03:52:24,920
Speaker 9: woman for what they claimed was pushing them. Locals have

4509
03:52:25,040 --> 03:52:28,280
Speaker 9: been protesting since the city council has moved its meetings

4510
03:52:28,360 --> 03:52:33,280
Speaker 9: online citing public safety concerns, and in another bungled raid

4511
03:52:33,320 --> 03:52:35,720
Speaker 9: in the same state, ICE agents left a twelve year

4512
03:52:35,760 --> 03:52:38,920
Speaker 9: old child alone on the sidewalk and drove their vehicle

4513
03:52:39,160 --> 03:52:41,920
Speaker 9: aggressively towards a city councilor who was trying to document

4514
03:52:42,280 --> 03:52:47,400
Speaker 9: a situation. Meanwhile, in Florida, DeSantis has sworn in one

4515
03:52:47,520 --> 03:52:52,920
Speaker 9: hundred Florida Highway Patrol deputies as special US Marshals, and

4516
03:52:52,960 --> 03:52:56,120
Speaker 9: their claiming this allows them to conduct immigration enforcement operations

4517
03:52:56,160 --> 03:53:00,600
Speaker 9: of their own outside of cooperation with ICE or CVP

4518
03:53:01,720 --> 03:53:05,280
Speaker 9: that adds to the two thousand ATF and DA agents.

4519
03:53:05,320 --> 03:53:08,320
Speaker 9: A tramp administration has requested to join ICE teams. So

4520
03:53:08,360 --> 03:53:11,960
Speaker 9: when you're watching videos, sometimes you'll see when there are

4521
03:53:12,000 --> 03:53:14,880
Speaker 9: these like ICE snatch squads right there are ATF agents

4522
03:53:14,960 --> 03:53:17,200
Speaker 9: with them, and what they're generally there to do is

4523
03:53:17,280 --> 03:53:20,440
Speaker 9: like to secure, to provide like additional security on the

4524
03:53:20,520 --> 03:53:24,720
Speaker 9: team while the ICE agents do the actual apprehensions. DeSantis

4525
03:53:24,800 --> 03:53:28,640
Speaker 9: has also offered quote new detention facilities. I haven't seen

4526
03:53:28,720 --> 03:53:31,600
Speaker 9: much reporting on this, but in the same statement on

4527
03:53:31,680 --> 03:53:34,760
Speaker 9: his website where he talked about cross swearing the highway

4528
03:53:34,800 --> 03:53:38,960
Speaker 9: patrol guys, he also talked about these quote new detention facilities,

4529
03:53:39,120 --> 03:53:41,400
Speaker 9: and I want to take this opportunity to reflect on

4530
03:53:41,480 --> 03:53:45,240
Speaker 9: the existing detention facilities in Florida because they are the

4531
03:53:45,760 --> 03:53:50,160
Speaker 9: worst in a system of horrific detention facilities. The ACLU

4532
03:53:50,240 --> 03:53:53,920
Speaker 9: has documented quote persistent emotional, physical, and sexual abuse at

4533
03:53:53,960 --> 03:53:57,720
Speaker 9: the hands of staff for these facilities. Detainees reportedly being

4534
03:53:57,800 --> 03:54:01,560
Speaker 9: punished simply seeking medical care, be denied medical attention just

4535
03:54:01,600 --> 03:54:05,560
Speaker 9: by having preexistinct conditions. The report also found ample evidence

4536
03:54:05,640 --> 03:54:11,160
Speaker 9: of gendered and racialized mistreatment the Chrome Detention Center that's

4537
03:54:11,280 --> 03:54:17,840
Speaker 9: krom Is in particular horrific migrants there, in one instance

4538
03:54:17,960 --> 03:54:21,680
Speaker 9: were held in chains on buses for sixteen hours and

4539
03:54:21,920 --> 03:54:24,760
Speaker 9: told to use the bathroom where they were sitting on

4540
03:54:24,880 --> 03:54:29,200
Speaker 9: the buses. A migrant named a sudi as A hell

4541
03:54:29,280 --> 03:54:34,600
Speaker 9: Vasquez Martinez somehow kept his phone inside the Chrome Detention

4542
03:54:34,760 --> 03:54:37,600
Speaker 9: Center and was able to live stream or at least

4543
03:54:37,600 --> 03:54:43,240
Speaker 9: post videos showed horrific overcrowding. Some sources claim there were

4544
03:54:43,240 --> 03:54:45,640
Speaker 9: as many as four thousand people in the detention center,

4545
03:54:45,680 --> 03:54:49,120
Speaker 9: which has a capacity of five hundred and two people

4546
03:54:49,200 --> 03:54:51,520
Speaker 9: that we know of have died there since January.

4547
03:54:52,240 --> 03:54:56,360
Speaker 2: Florida looking to add more detention centers. Not great, It's

4548
03:54:56,360 --> 03:54:56,920
Speaker 2: about all I got.

4549
03:54:57,000 --> 03:55:00,240
Speaker 9: Garrison talk to us about Project Homecoming. Who's coming home?

4550
03:55:01,200 --> 03:55:05,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, And again we will actually close on some good news.

4551
03:55:05,160 --> 03:55:08,320
Speaker 11: So it's not all horrible stuff this entire time. But

4552
03:55:08,840 --> 03:55:13,000
Speaker 11: we do need to mention Project Homecoming. So this was

4553
03:55:13,000 --> 03:55:16,760
Speaker 11: a proclamation issued by Trump on May ninth, entitled establishing

4554
03:55:16,840 --> 03:55:20,200
Speaker 11: Project Homecoming, which aims to curb a quote unquote full

4555
03:55:20,360 --> 03:55:24,800
Speaker 11: scale invasion. It claims to devote more federal resources to

4556
03:55:24,880 --> 03:55:29,920
Speaker 11: assist self deportation via the CBP Home app including paying

4557
03:55:30,000 --> 03:55:33,480
Speaker 11: for flights for those who are quote voluntarily and permanently

4558
03:55:33,680 --> 03:55:37,520
Speaker 11: departing the United States unquote, which says, quote the Secretary

4559
03:55:37,560 --> 03:55:39,600
Speaker 11: of State and Secretary of Homeland Security shall create a

4560
03:55:39,720 --> 03:55:44,360
Speaker 11: concierge service whereby any alien illegally present in the United States,

4561
03:55:44,400 --> 03:55:47,880
Speaker 11: it may arrive at an airport with or without appropriate

4562
03:55:47,960 --> 03:55:52,240
Speaker 11: travel documents book air travel to permanently relocate to a

4563
03:55:52,280 --> 03:55:56,960
Speaker 11: different country. So they are really strengthening these self deportation mechanisms.

4564
03:55:57,480 --> 03:56:00,720
Speaker 11: Section two promises to provide financial incers in the form

4565
03:56:00,720 --> 03:56:04,320
Speaker 11: of a quote unquote exit bonus for each illegal alien

4566
03:56:04,440 --> 03:56:06,720
Speaker 11: who voluntarily and permanently departs the United States.

4567
03:56:07,280 --> 03:56:10,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so a couple of really weird things. They're just

4568
03:56:10,200 --> 03:56:12,760
Speaker 2: off the bat. Yes, age like permanently departs.

4569
03:56:12,840 --> 03:56:14,760
Speaker 9: It seems to suggest that you would be permanently barred

4570
03:56:14,800 --> 03:56:17,360
Speaker 9: from ever entering the United States acquiring a visa.

4571
03:56:17,480 --> 03:56:17,760
Speaker 2: Again.

4572
03:56:18,400 --> 03:56:21,840
Speaker 9: Secondly, if you don't have travel documents, the country that

4573
03:56:22,080 --> 03:56:26,640
Speaker 9: you're traveling to or through has no reason to admit you.

4574
03:56:27,280 --> 03:56:29,880
Speaker 9: Right that, the US government cannot force other countries to

4575
03:56:29,960 --> 03:56:33,080
Speaker 9: admit people without travel documents. There are things called refugee

4576
03:56:33,080 --> 03:56:35,600
Speaker 9: travel documents which allow people who have had their passports,

4577
03:56:35,640 --> 03:56:36,920
Speaker 9: et cetera stolen to travel.

4578
03:56:37,720 --> 03:56:39,480
Speaker 2: I don't think that's what's gonna happen here.

4579
03:56:40,120 --> 03:56:42,560
Speaker 11: Yeah, it does mention something about trying to negotiate with

4580
03:56:42,680 --> 03:56:45,520
Speaker 11: other countries to allow people without documentation to arrive there,

4581
03:56:45,600 --> 03:56:49,080
Speaker 11: but like, well they actually do that probably not like

4582
03:56:49,280 --> 03:56:51,200
Speaker 11: they've claimed to not have to need to do that before,

4583
03:56:51,640 --> 03:56:54,840
Speaker 11: So like, yeah, that's not like a solid promise. Now

4584
03:56:54,960 --> 03:56:58,160
Speaker 11: those who choose to remain will face quote sweeping consequences

4585
03:56:58,200 --> 03:57:04,160
Speaker 11: including removal, prosecution, incarceration, and finds as consistent with applicable

4586
03:57:04,240 --> 03:57:08,400
Speaker 11: law for immigration related crimes, the garnishment of wages, and

4587
03:57:08,520 --> 03:57:12,240
Speaker 11: the confiscations of savings and personal property, including homes and

4588
03:57:12,440 --> 03:57:16,160
Speaker 11: vehicles unquote, So they're threatening to steal all of your things.

4589
03:57:16,640 --> 03:57:21,200
Speaker 11: This proclamation follows this like propaganda video shared by Christino

4590
03:57:21,320 --> 03:57:24,040
Speaker 11: and the Department of Homeland Security. This video was released

4591
03:57:24,040 --> 03:57:26,840
Speaker 11: a few weeks ago, and it contains some similar rhetoric

4592
03:57:26,960 --> 03:57:30,240
Speaker 11: regarding self deportation and fines being imposed for those who

4593
03:57:30,280 --> 03:57:30,960
Speaker 11: stay in the country.

4594
03:57:31,560 --> 03:57:35,200
Speaker 14: An illegal alien from Guatemala charged with raping a child

4595
03:57:35,280 --> 03:57:39,200
Speaker 14: in Massachusetts. An MS thirteen gang member from Al Salvador

4596
03:57:39,480 --> 03:57:43,880
Speaker 14: accused of murdering a Texas man of Venezuelan charged with

4597
03:57:43,960 --> 03:57:47,880
Speaker 14: filming and selling child pornography in Michigan. These are just

4598
03:57:48,000 --> 03:57:51,840
Speaker 14: some of the heinous migrant criminals caught because of President

4599
03:57:51,920 --> 03:57:56,280
Speaker 14: Donald J. Trump's leadership. I'm Christinom, the United States Secretary

4600
03:57:56,400 --> 03:58:01,400
Speaker 14: of Homeland Security. Under President Trump, attempted illegal border crossings

4601
03:58:01,440 --> 03:58:04,800
Speaker 14: are at the lowest levels ever recorded, and over one

4602
03:58:04,920 --> 03:58:08,200
Speaker 14: hundred thousand illegal aliens have been arrested. If you are

4603
03:58:08,280 --> 03:58:12,280
Speaker 14: here illegally, your next you will be fine nearly one

4604
03:58:12,400 --> 03:58:16,960
Speaker 14: thousand dollars a day. Imprisoned and deported, you will never return.

4605
03:58:17,320 --> 03:58:20,320
Speaker 14: But if you register using our CBP home app and

4606
03:58:20,480 --> 03:58:23,920
Speaker 14: leave now, you could be allowed to return legally. Do

4607
03:58:24,080 --> 03:58:29,280
Speaker 14: what's right. Leave now under President Trump America's laws order

4608
03:58:29,560 --> 03:58:31,440
Speaker 14: and families will be protected.

4609
03:58:31,920 --> 03:58:35,040
Speaker 2: The whole style of this video is very bizarre. Yeah,

4610
03:58:35,520 --> 03:58:36,680
Speaker 2: it's like a Marvel trailer.

4611
03:58:37,160 --> 03:58:39,240
Speaker 11: It's like a Marvel trailer with like the setex of

4612
03:58:39,360 --> 03:58:42,480
Speaker 11: like mid two thousands, like dystopian sci fi.

4613
03:58:42,960 --> 03:58:43,160
Speaker 6: Yeah.

4614
03:58:43,880 --> 03:58:46,320
Speaker 11: Again, the end of that video, she talks about being

4615
03:58:46,320 --> 03:58:49,920
Speaker 11: able to return legally, which is in contrast to the

4616
03:58:49,960 --> 03:58:52,560
Speaker 11: language in a Project Homecoming, which says that people would

4617
03:58:52,560 --> 03:58:56,440
Speaker 11: be leaving the United States permanently. Finally, the proclamation directs

4618
03:58:56,480 --> 03:58:59,240
Speaker 11: the Secretary of Home and Security to within sixty days,

4619
03:58:59,520 --> 03:59:03,520
Speaker 11: supplement existing law enforcement and removal operations by deputizing and

4620
03:59:03,600 --> 03:59:07,720
Speaker 11: contracting state and local police, former Feds, and quote other individuals,

4621
03:59:07,800 --> 03:59:11,080
Speaker 11: to increase the enforcement and removal operations force of the

4622
03:59:11,120 --> 03:59:13,920
Speaker 11: Department of Homeland Security by no less than twenty thousand

4623
03:59:13,960 --> 03:59:17,040
Speaker 11: officers in order to conduct an intensive campaign to remove

4624
03:59:17,120 --> 03:59:21,960
Speaker 11: illegal aliens unquote. And now, as of this morning, May fifteenth,

4625
03:59:22,400 --> 03:59:25,600
Speaker 11: the DHS has requested to mobilize over twenty thousand National

4626
03:59:25,640 --> 03:59:28,360
Speaker 11: Guard troops from the Department of Defense to comply with

4627
03:59:28,400 --> 03:59:32,560
Speaker 11: Trump's order to expand its immigration crackdown. And on Wednesday,

4628
03:59:32,640 --> 03:59:37,200
Speaker 11: the FBI ordered agents to deprioritize white collar crime investigations

4629
03:59:37,440 --> 03:59:40,000
Speaker 11: for the remainder of twenty twenty five to instead focus

4630
03:59:40,080 --> 03:59:44,160
Speaker 11: on immigration enforcement. Field offices notified their agents that now

4631
03:59:44,560 --> 03:59:47,920
Speaker 11: one third of their time must go towards assisting Trump's

4632
03:59:48,000 --> 03:59:49,320
Speaker 11: immigration policies.

4633
03:59:49,640 --> 03:59:52,240
Speaker 7: I'm going to quote from Reuter's quote. The orders came

4634
03:59:52,320 --> 03:59:55,040
Speaker 7: on the same day that Matthew Gaiiatti, the head of

4635
03:59:55,120 --> 03:59:59,080
Speaker 7: the Justice Department's Criminal Division, issued new guidance to prosecutors

4636
03:59:59,120 --> 04:00:01,520
Speaker 7: that scales back this the scope of white collar cases

4637
04:00:01,960 --> 04:00:05,120
Speaker 7: historically pursued by the Department, and orders prosecutors to quote

4638
04:00:05,360 --> 04:00:09,480
Speaker 7: minimize the length and collateral impact of such investigations.

4639
04:00:09,840 --> 04:00:10,160
Speaker 2: Jeez.

4640
04:00:11,280 --> 04:00:14,720
Speaker 11: Again, the most corrupt administration ever ever before seen. Yeah,

4641
04:00:15,240 --> 04:00:17,680
Speaker 11: and now for the good news to close the episode.

4642
04:00:18,160 --> 04:00:20,840
Speaker 11: The Tuft's university student was may Oz Turk, who was

4643
04:00:20,880 --> 04:00:23,560
Speaker 11: black bagged on the streets of Massachusetts for co authoring

4644
04:00:23,640 --> 04:00:26,600
Speaker 11: a pro Palestine op ed, has been released on bail

4645
04:00:26,800 --> 04:00:30,680
Speaker 11: as of May ninth, after spending six weeks in ICED attention.

4646
04:00:31,320 --> 04:00:34,360
Speaker 11: The judge said that missus Ostrich's claims of her First

4647
04:00:34,400 --> 04:00:37,480
Speaker 11: Amendment and Due process rights being violated are quote unquote

4648
04:00:37,720 --> 04:00:41,960
Speaker 11: very substantial. And then on Wednesday, May fourteenth, the Georgetown

4649
04:00:42,080 --> 04:00:46,640
Speaker 11: University researcher from India named Batar Khan Suri was released

4650
04:00:46,680 --> 04:00:49,960
Speaker 11: from immigration detention as he continues to fight two deportation

4651
04:00:50,120 --> 04:00:52,520
Speaker 11: cases brought against him by the Trump administration for his

4652
04:00:52,640 --> 04:00:55,640
Speaker 11: support of Palestine. So this is now the third or

4653
04:00:56,040 --> 04:00:59,880
Speaker 11: fourth person that has been released from ICE custody following

4654
04:01:00,240 --> 04:01:02,520
Speaker 11: like political prosecutions based.

4655
04:01:02,360 --> 04:01:05,600
Speaker 2: On their activism. Yeah, that's a good thing.

4656
04:01:05,960 --> 04:01:08,160
Speaker 11: Now, these cases are still going to be continuing in courts.

4657
04:01:08,360 --> 04:01:10,400
Speaker 11: But the fact that these people have been released from

4658
04:01:10,440 --> 04:01:12,440
Speaker 11: ICE attention is good news.

4659
04:01:13,160 --> 04:01:15,920
Speaker 9: And in most cases they were released on their own recognizance,

4660
04:01:15,960 --> 04:01:18,360
Speaker 9: right without GPS tagging or any like.

4661
04:01:18,680 --> 04:01:21,360
Speaker 11: Yeah, they're freedom move throughout the country because most of

4662
04:01:21,400 --> 04:01:24,120
Speaker 11: them have cases in like multiple states. ICE is trying

4663
04:01:24,120 --> 04:01:27,040
Speaker 11: to move them around to many different locations. And I

4664
04:01:27,200 --> 04:01:30,480
Speaker 11: know that Surrey and ost Turk are able to go

4665
04:01:30,680 --> 04:01:32,160
Speaker 11: back to their homes.

4666
04:01:32,840 --> 04:01:34,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, So like it's good. It shows that the courts

4667
04:01:34,920 --> 04:01:36,920
Speaker 9: are still able to stop some of this stuff at

4668
04:01:36,960 --> 04:01:37,320
Speaker 9: this time.

4669
04:01:37,880 --> 04:01:41,320
Speaker 2: Yes, and that the actual ability of a lawyer to

4670
04:01:41,640 --> 04:01:44,440
Speaker 2: intervene when you were treated illegally by the state is

4671
04:01:44,520 --> 04:01:46,120
Speaker 2: not nil yeah yet.

4672
04:01:46,360 --> 04:01:49,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, Yeah, good point, positive developments here.

4673
04:01:49,240 --> 04:01:52,920
Speaker 11: But like, yeah, as we'll see with with Miller's goal

4674
04:01:53,000 --> 04:01:56,760
Speaker 11: of getting rid of habeas corpus and accelerating law enforcement

4675
04:01:56,800 --> 04:01:59,560
Speaker 11: operations with these twenty thousand new National Guard troops. This

4676
04:01:59,680 --> 04:02:02,080
Speaker 11: is this is something that's still going to be a

4677
04:02:02,200 --> 04:02:04,520
Speaker 11: very a very hot issue for quite a while, and

4678
04:02:04,600 --> 04:02:07,200
Speaker 11: we will continue to report on it as it develops.

4679
04:02:08,360 --> 04:02:14,720
Speaker 2: Well everybody, until next time. Remember something WESA reported to news.

4680
04:02:17,200 --> 04:02:26,280
Speaker 2: We reported the news. Hey, we'll be back Monday with

4681
04:02:26,520 --> 04:02:29,320
Speaker 2: more episodes every week from now until the heat death

4682
04:02:29,360 --> 04:02:30,000
Speaker 2: of the universe.

4683
04:02:30,760 --> 04:02:33,240
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

4684
04:02:33,440 --> 04:02:36,480
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4685
04:02:36,600 --> 04:02:40,120
Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

4686
04:02:40,240 --> 04:02:42,160
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

4687
04:02:41,960 --> 04:02:43,040
Speaker 7: You listen to podcasts.

4688
04:02:43,520 --> 04:02:45,440
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It could Happen Here

4689
04:02:45,520 --> 04:02:48,440
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.