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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: It's Behind the Bastards, a podcast that I have increasingly

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Speaker 2: gotten bad at opening. You would think normally when you

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Speaker 2: do something thousands of times, you get better at it,

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Speaker 2: but sometimes you just get worse at it, because how

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Speaker 2: do you keep opening the podcast? You know, I've already

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Speaker 2: done the what's cracking my peppers? We've already reached the

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Speaker 2: highest highs that a man can reach, not just in

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Speaker 2: podcasting but in life in general. So there's there's nowhere

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Speaker 2: to go.

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Speaker 1: But want to I want to try hello and welcome

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Speaker 1: to Behind the Bastards.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that. I don't think any podcast has

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Speaker 2: ever opened that way?

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Speaker 3: Is that?

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Speaker 2: Is that why we don't get awarts?

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Speaker 3: I prefer ha dah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that was pretty I was like out of a

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Speaker 1: Sandler status.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go, and he got to be in

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Speaker 2: uncut gems. You know, maybe I'll get to be an

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Speaker 2: uncut gyms. I could be. I could have a gambling problem, Sophie,

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Speaker 2: I believe in me.

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Speaker 3: I do believe that you.

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Speaker 1: Could have a gambling problem. But we don't let you

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Speaker 1: touch the money.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, I can put it all on black, Sophie

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Speaker 2: twenty one black. I think that's a roulette term. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: speaking of roulette, every time we pick a new guest,

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Speaker 2: it's roulette, except today, because today we have Jack O'Brien

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Speaker 2: back on the pod, Jack the Guarantee, switch Jack the

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Speaker 2: pro Brian.

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Speaker 3: That's called a jackpot, and that is my catchphrase.

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Speaker 2: Now it's nice.

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Speaker 3: That's nice saying get back from the dead, and the

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Speaker 3: dead you all forgot about him. Yeah. Of all the

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Speaker 3: popular casino names that you could have associated with my name,

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Speaker 3: roulette is definitely the closest, especially after you had just

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Speaker 3: said twenty one. There's a game called black jack. I

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Speaker 3: know they don't let you gamble, but.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, money, yeah, you got black jack.

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Speaker 3: It's a jackpot. My name really slot slots in nicely

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Speaker 3: with a lot of a casino lingo.

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Speaker 1: Why have you not made a crypto because it's evil?

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Speaker 3: Oh right right, I will tell you that is not why.

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Speaker 3: It's a pure laziness and not willing to learn all

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Speaker 3: the bullshit that goes along with it.

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Speaker 1: I do feel like your co host Miles Gray could

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Speaker 1: really sell amium coin. Oh hell yeah yeah, like come on,

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Speaker 1: oh there it is, it's there. You did it.

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Speaker 3: We did try and soft launch ZiT coin, and everybody

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Speaker 3: thought it was a joke.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I tried to launch bastard coin. You just

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Speaker 2: wound up making the president a lot of money.

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Speaker 3: Basically what we all do every day. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that that is kind of the point of everyone

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Speaker 2: else in the country now speaking of making a lot

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Speaker 2: of money doing evil things. Australia, that's the ship this week.

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Speaker 2: It's an Australian bastard. Our Ozzie listeners have been begging

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Speaker 2: for years, why not, Why don't you ever talk about

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Speaker 2: Australians So many of us are terrible. It's always been

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Speaker 2: my understanding that Australia is sort of like Texas, the

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Speaker 2: country in a lot of ways, but just with fucking

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Speaker 2: desert racing replacing guns and kangaroos replacing whateverdillos.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't think anything replaces kangaroos. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: We're talking about a lady named Eliza Frasier this week.

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Speaker 2: That's our our bastard. And so Eliza is a lady

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Speaker 2: who gets shipwrecked and then tells a bunch of lies

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Speaker 2: about how the Aboriginal people on the island that she

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Speaker 2: is shipwrecked on treat her, and those lies wind up

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Speaker 2: cascading and playing a role in a lot of genocidal bullshit.

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Speaker 2: So she's the bastard this week, and also the colonial

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Speaker 2: state of Australia is a bastard. But it's a fascinating

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Speaker 2: story about a place that I knew nothing about before

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Speaker 2: I started reading about this. So we're gonna have a

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Speaker 2: good time, Jack, you did to hear about some genocide.

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Speaker 3: I the West? Mate. By the end, I will get

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Speaker 3: here one good syllable of an Australian accent.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's okay because Eliza comes from this era. She's British, right,

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Speaker 2: Like she's a major figure in Australian history. But like

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Speaker 2: the Aussies hadn't really figured out that accent yet, right,

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Speaker 2: they were still just British people on a different place.

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Speaker 3: They're not workshop people. I like the idea that they

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Speaker 3: were just like intentionally in a room somewhere. That is

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Speaker 3: kind of what happened with the received pronunciation, right, the

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Speaker 3: British accent.

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Speaker 2: Like, yeah, a bunch of rich guys sat around in

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Speaker 2: a room.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. In Shakespeare in Time, the British accent sounded like

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Speaker 3: the Baltimore accent, Like it was just kind of like

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Speaker 3: engine birding and.

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Speaker 2: Everyone sounded like a character in the wire.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that's correct.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that sounds about right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yen's going down to see Shakespeare at the Globe.

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Speaker 2: That that's exactly how Shakespeare sounded.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's so much of your tb or not to be.

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Speaker 2: Yes, thankfully, Denzel's version of Macbeth really really delivered on that.

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Speaker 3: But then they were like, we should sound fancy, and

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Speaker 3: that's where we got to receive pronunciation. I don't think

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Speaker 3: this is like exactly what happened. I don't think they

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Speaker 3: had like a meeting where they were like, should we

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Speaker 3: fancy it up? But they were just like it kind

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Speaker 3: of sounds cool when we talk like this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've missed you, buddy.

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Speaker 3: My accent works so good. You've missed me and my

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Speaker 3: accent work.

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Speaker 2: That's also part of the the thing is like we

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Speaker 2: could be shitty to everyone who doesn't talk right because

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Speaker 2: they didn't go to Eton or wherever. Yes, why you

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Speaker 2: have like received if you if you know British people,

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Speaker 2: they can always tell you, oh yeah, that guy's rich,

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Speaker 2: just by like hearing him. I know, whereas in America

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Speaker 2: everyone just sounds like a California now.

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Speaker 3: As we did it.

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Speaker 2: Joe all up, speaker, let's talk about Eliza Frasier and

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Speaker 2: this series of genocides. It's great stuff. Now, this is

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Speaker 2: also kind of a story about conflicting versions of events

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Speaker 2: can sort of spread through popular media because one of

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Speaker 2: the things that's happens here is this lady gets rescued

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Speaker 2: from being shipwrecked and starts telling a story that she

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Speaker 2: changes several times, and a whole industry arises around telling

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Speaker 2: that story because there's just a lot of money in

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Speaker 2: lying about this, because it gets white people titillated, and

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Speaker 2: so there's just a whole it like literally like a

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Speaker 2: like it's almost like its own cinematic universe of lying

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Speaker 2: about this lady being shipwrecked that starts out in the

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Speaker 2: mid eighteen hundreds. It's very fun. But every version of

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Speaker 2: events starts the same way, which is that Eliza Fraser

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Speaker 2: sets sail on a boat called the Sterling Castle in

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Speaker 2: eighteen thirty six. Her husband is the captain, and according

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Speaker 2: to most versions of the story, although not all of them,

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Speaker 2: she is Preger's, which I don't think i've ever set

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Speaker 2: on the show.

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Speaker 1: I hate it, I.

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Speaker 3: Really love it.

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Speaker 2: I'm getting mixed reacts.

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Speaker 3: The goosebumps that I have on my arms right now

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Speaker 3: are because it felt so good and natural. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: Preger's Preger's McGregor's.

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Speaker 2: Bereggor's McGregor's off. Only her last name had been McGregor.

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Speaker 2: That would really have worked.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure one of the people on the on the

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Speaker 3: ship was named McGregor.

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Speaker 2: It's god, anytime there's a British ship at sea, there's

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Speaker 2: a McGregor somewhere on that motherfucker. So in May of

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Speaker 2: eighteen thirty six, several months after setting sail, the Sterling

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Speaker 2: Castle runs aground, not all that far from an island

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Speaker 2: that at that point Europeans called it the Great Sandy Island.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be called Fraser Island. Uh and uh

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Speaker 2: yeah yeah yeah right. They name it after this lady

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Speaker 2: who lies about it. It is to this day the

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Speaker 2: world's largest sand island. So it's it's a pretty sizable island.

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Speaker 2: It's about one hundred and eighty six miles north of

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Speaker 2: Brisbane and today it's called Gharri. It is spelled k

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Speaker 2: apostrophe j r I and if you go to like Wikipedia,

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Speaker 2: it'll say it's pronounced gury or gury like g U

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Speaker 2: r r i E. But I pulled up a video

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Speaker 2: of like people who come from like the tribes that

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Speaker 2: are indigenous to the island saying it, and they say

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Speaker 2: it more like ghuri.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: So that's how I'm going to try to say it.

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Speaker 2: Because they're rter than Wikipedia. It's also possible that maybe

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Speaker 2: there's some like dialect differences and people. Yeah, anyway, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to try to call it gary because that's what

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Speaker 2: it sounded like in the video that I saw.

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Speaker 3: Is Sandy Island like just sand? Is that uncommon? I guess?

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Speaker 3: Is my question? Like I've been to islands that have

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Speaker 3: sand on them, but like I did not realize that

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Speaker 3: they were.

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Speaker 2: It's common, but not for them to be this big, right,

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Speaker 2: Like there's a bunch of sandy islands, but the Great

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Speaker 2: Sandy Island is the biggest. One thing you got to

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Speaker 2: give the first name Europeans give it is that it's

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Speaker 2: at least accurate where they're like, well this is a

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Speaker 2: fucking huge sandy island. Son of a bitch is big.

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Speaker 1: Jack Imagine island but like more sand yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well like even Sandier yeah, and even Sandier Island the

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Speaker 3: sand you could call it the sandyst island the sandiest

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Speaker 3: of Anakin Skywalker would hate this fucking island as a colonizer,

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Speaker 3: I guess makes sense, so that people have been living

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Speaker 3: on Gari for a very very long time, and at

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Speaker 3: least some of what I've read, although I always take

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Speaker 3: like European anthropology about Aboriginal people, a lot of which

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Speaker 3: is written in like the sixties and seventies, with a

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Speaker 3: grain of salt here, a lot of that kind of

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Speaker 3: stuff that I've read said that in antiquity, at least

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Speaker 3: the people who lived on this island did not conceive

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Speaker 3: of a world outside of this island and this little

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Speaker 3: chunk of the mainland that they kind of moved between,

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Speaker 3: because they were like a lot of the people who

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Speaker 3: lived on Ghari lived on Gary like part time and

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Speaker 3: then would be on the mainland near the coast part time,

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Speaker 3: would kind of move between the two right based on

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Speaker 3: like the what kind of food was available in what season.

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Speaker 3: Not uncommon around the world, most people who were like

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Speaker 3: quote unquote hunter gathers or whatnot, were more like semi

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Speaker 3: nomadic right where they would have places that they would

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Speaker 3: like settle down in places where they kind of would

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Speaker 3: grow food, but they would also move around based on

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Speaker 3: you know, what the climate's doing and what kind of

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Speaker 3: you know, food is available different chunks of the year. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: I should start with some deep history of this island,

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Speaker 3: which is again very imperfect, but it's it's better than

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Speaker 3: not doing it at all. The peoples who lived on

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Speaker 3: this island tended to pass on knowledge orally through song,

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Speaker 3: So we don't have a complete understanding of their history

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Speaker 3: because not all of the people who knew all of

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Speaker 3: the songs survived to pass them down, right, because there's

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Speaker 3: a genocide, right, But we do have quite a lot

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Speaker 3: of information from these people in that restitution shadow by

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Speaker 3: the way.

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Speaker 2: Yes, a sizeable amount of their records, like we have

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Speaker 2: their records of their very first European contract contact, which

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Speaker 2: has been passed down four hundred like several hundred years

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Speaker 2: through songs. Human beings have lived on what is today

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Speaker 2: Ghari for more than fifty thousand years. There's no real

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Speaker 2: way to get much more precise than that. And human

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Speaker 2: civilization on the island in fact predates it being an island,

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Speaker 2: because until about six thousand years ago it was still

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Speaker 2: directly connected to the Australian mainland. Rising sea levels put

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Speaker 2: an end to that in the fertile climate and bounty

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Speaker 2: of aquatic protein enable it to support a meaningful permanent

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Speaker 2: population of like several thousand people. Most casual histories of

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Speaker 2: Ghuri tend to emphasize the isolation that the people there

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Speaker 2: had from other groups of people. This does not seem

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Speaker 2: to be entirely accurate. By the time Europeans arrived there,

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Speaker 2: there were three broad tribal groups on the island, one

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Speaker 2: of them the Bochola, which is usually spelled butcha La,

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Speaker 2: but there's like three different spellings that are all correct

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Speaker 2: because it's like an anglicization, right. So the Bachola lived

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Speaker 2: on the mainland across from the Great Sandy Strait and

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Speaker 2: in the central part of the island, right, so they

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Speaker 2: would kind of go between different like the mainland and

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Speaker 2: the island. And then there's the Dulungbara who occupied much

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Speaker 2: of the south, and the Nulungbara in the north. And

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Speaker 2: I was not able to find pronunciations for those latter two,

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Speaker 2: so I'm doing my best on those. I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 2: I've got Bachola right to some extent. Ghuri like occupation

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Speaker 2: of Ghuri varied with the season. Mullet fishing was the

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Speaker 2: major source of food, and during the height of the

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Speaker 2: harvest there might be as many as three thousand people

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Speaker 2: on the island, right, and then it's kind of like

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Speaker 2: a snowbird situation, where like your full timers are a

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Speaker 2: smaller chunk of the population. I don't think they had

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Speaker 2: our vs. But otherwise that's more.

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Speaker 3: Like anyways, Eastern like East Coast retirees are living the

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Speaker 3: most similar lives to indigenous peoples of long ago.

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Speaker 2: But right, right, traveling Florida and.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, going between the Jersey Shore and Florida.

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Speaker 2: I mean there are some ways in which that's right, right, right, people,

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Speaker 2: like the idea that people would just live one place

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Speaker 2: all the time is new.

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Speaker 3: It is, And it's also like not that book The

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Speaker 3: Dawn of Everything by David Graeber and Weng Grove, like

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Speaker 3: they talk about how one of the key freedoms that

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Speaker 3: they used to have that we don't really have as

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Speaker 3: much anymore and don't really value is just the ability

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Speaker 3: to be like, well this sucked, and like leave down,

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Speaker 3: Like that was always the thing that people were just

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Speaker 3: able to do, and then like entire communities would just

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Speaker 3: like move if things got shitty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like it sucks here. Let's go calling

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Speaker 2: himself King timed to bounce. Yeah yeah, Oh if only

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Speaker 2: we could still do that. Buy an RV, become free everyone.

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Speaker 2: That's the message of this podcast, Live on the Road.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's no downsides. Everyone I know who lives

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Speaker 2: in an RV is happy. It always goes well, it

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Speaker 2: never goes badly. RVs are well made, they don't break immediately.

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Speaker 1: I can't tell you the amount of times Robert suggested

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Speaker 1: we get in a podcast.

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Speaker 2: I think I think we should get a fleet of

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Speaker 2: RV Could I could be a podcast commodore, Thank you Jack.

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Speaker 3: Yes, just like a moving podcast studio. You just need

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Speaker 3: like a small podcast studio to justify it, and then

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Speaker 3: everything else is just sorry. Sophie is so mad at

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Speaker 3: me for entertaining this.

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Speaker 2: Like, oh, I love this idea we can cook lizards

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Speaker 2: over open fires, Like mad Max. I think it's a

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Speaker 2: good idea.

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Speaker 3: It's just a thing that I can't get my wife

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Speaker 3: to agree to, and so I'm like, oh, you should

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Speaker 3: expense it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, people, a lot of people are really hesitant

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Speaker 2: to let their children live in a roaming RV. Come, okay, excellent, no,

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Speaker 2: very good. So most of the sources I have found

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Speaker 2: identify the islands Gari's first contact with Europeans as coming

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Speaker 2: with the arrival of the notorious Captain James Cook. That said,

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Speaker 2: there's evidence of several centuries of a regular contact with

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Speaker 2: Europeans prior to James Cook showing up. This would have

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Speaker 2: begun with Portuguese sailors around fifteen hundred, and there's evidence

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Speaker 2: of some trade or other exchange of materials in Spanish

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Speaker 2: lead that was found on the island, also dating from

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Speaker 2: around fifteen hundred. It's a little hard to say. There's

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Speaker 2: also like clay pipes that were made by the Dutch

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Speaker 2: that would have come from the sixteen hundreds, but we

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Speaker 2: don't really know. Does that mean that those people like

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Speaker 2: Europeans were landing on the island and training directly, or

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Speaker 2: that people who lived on the island who we know

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Speaker 2: went back to the mainland periodically throughout the year. We're

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Speaker 2: trading with other different groups of Aboriginal people who were

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Speaker 2: themselves trading with these other Europeans, right, we don't really

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Speaker 2: know that. As one of my sources, an article by

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Speaker 2: the Fraser Island Defenders Association notes this could simply be

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Speaker 2: yet evidence of trade between Gari and people with other

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Speaker 2: parts of Australia. Over the generation, some of the peoples

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Speaker 2: of this island developed a spiritual cosmology and a set

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Speaker 2: of rituals around death that would later get them slandered

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Speaker 2: as cannibals. And this is again something that I found

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Speaker 2: in sort of anthropological studies. I don't think this is

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Speaker 2: something that is known to at there's some debate on this,

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Speaker 2: but there's some evidence that here, as well as in

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Speaker 2: other places, when people's loved ones died, there was a

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Speaker 2: degree of funerary cannibalism practiced, right. And another thing that

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Speaker 2: was done that we know that was done was that

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Speaker 2: like when people's loved ones died, they would be skinned

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Speaker 2: by their family members before being buried, leaving what was

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Speaker 2: called the true skin behind, which is like, as best

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Speaker 2: as I can tell, like the fascia underneath your skin,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of a shade of white.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: It's this like white colored substance between your skin and muscles.

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Speaker 2: And as a result, white skin became associated with the dead. Right,

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Speaker 2: So this is like part of a ritual for you know,

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Speaker 2: burying your loved ones, and this kind of like whiteness,

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Speaker 2: and when they see white people later they will be

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Speaker 2: associated with the dead right and with death. Not entirely wrong,

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Speaker 2: not entirely accurate. Kind of a helpful coincidence, yeah, in

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Speaker 2: some ways. Yeah, As a paper from the Anthropological Museum

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Speaker 2: of Queensland, edited by doctor Peter Lower describes, after this

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Speaker 2: ritual was finished, quote, certain sacred portions of the deceased

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Speaker 2: had been ceremoniously consumed by relatives. Carefully executed funeral rights

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Speaker 2: would ensure that the spirit, like a cold wind, left

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Speaker 2: the body before it was interred. According to Aboriginal informant Geyerbau,

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Speaker 2: the Butchalla believe that on the following day the spirit returned,

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Speaker 2: then the relatives would accompany it to a certain rock

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Speaker 2: at bari Eba, which bore the impress of the foot

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Speaker 2: of Bahraal, their ancestral being left behind when he had

341
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Speaker 2: leapt out over the sea on his way to the sky,

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Speaker 2: and from which place the spirits of their dead also

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Speaker 2: followed him to the sky country. Two men, specially posted

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Speaker 2: one at either side of the rock, would watch for

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Speaker 2: the spirits release. If they witnessed the spirits jumping off,

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Speaker 2: they would light a fire to make smoke in order

347
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Speaker 2: to prevent the spirit from coming back to frighten the people.

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Speaker 2: They believe that everyone went to the same place, and

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Speaker 2: that apart from their homeland and the lands of other tribes,

350
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Speaker 2: they knew there was no other place. So again, this

351
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Speaker 2: is like you know, some older anthropology, but it corresponds

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Speaker 2: with a lot of other stuff in history right now.

353
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Speaker 2: And there's some controversy here because allegations of cannibalism, not

354
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Speaker 2: just for the people of Ghari, but for like all

355
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Speaker 2: of the different Aboriginal peoples in Australia will be used

356
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Speaker 2: by Europeans as justifications for some pretty hideous acts of genocide,

357
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Speaker 2: which has led to understandable pushback by modern day descendants

358
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Speaker 2: of these people to assert that this is not an

359
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,919
Speaker 2: or accurate characterization of their ancestors. And usually what the

360
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,159
Speaker 2: Europeans are accusing them of doing is like hunting and

361
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Speaker 2: eating white people right like a as like a predatory act.

362
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Speaker 2: And this is like basically, all of these accounts are

363
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Speaker 2: our lives, and we'll talk a little bit about how

364
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 2: a lot of these lives come up that said funerary

365
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 2: cannibalism was engaged in by many peoples of this area

366
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Speaker 2: and all over the world. It is in fact nearly

367
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Speaker 2: a universal human practice if you go back far enough

368
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Speaker 2: anywhere on Earth. This is not the act of consuming

369
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Speaker 2: people for food or even eating defeated enemies, both of

370
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,360
Speaker 2: which you can find different civilizations engaged in throughout history.

371
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Speaker 2: Funerary cannibalism is something very different, and you might best

372
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Speaker 2: compare it to something that many people in the West,

373
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Speaker 2: including some people that I know, do today, which is

374
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Speaker 2: having their body composted. It used to soil to grow things. Right,

375
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Speaker 2: there are services people use that for today, and there's

376
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,040
Speaker 2: there's something kind of powerful here, both in a refusal

377
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 2: to totally let go of a dead loved one and

378
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,479
Speaker 2: a desire to keep a piece of them alive with

379
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Speaker 2: you in some way. Funerary cannibalism was a common practice

380
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,920
Speaker 2: in England about fifteen thousand years ago, and evidence of

381
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 2: similar practices has been found in Ireland and Germany, in

382
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 2: the UK and Russia, Belgium, Portugal, basically everywhere. Right, you

383
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 2: can find evidence of this in almost every like human

384
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Speaker 2: civilization on Earth if you go back far.

385
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Speaker 3: And it kind of seems like a somewhat sophisticated idea,

386
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Speaker 3: the idea of like you are turned into energy, like

387
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 3: it's not necessarily like dust to dust, as the Whites

388
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Speaker 3: like to say, you actually could be turned into energy,

389
00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 3: and you know, you became a part of us that

390
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 3: a plant grows out of that gets eaten. And you know,

391
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Speaker 3: I will say also as somebody who grew up in

392
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Speaker 3: a strict Catholic household, cannibalism is not uncommon in the

393
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Speaker 3: Western world, like they live for people who don't know Catholicism,

394
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Speaker 3: Like they believe that they're you know, they're they're doing

395
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 3: the sacrament up on the altar. Uh, they ring a

396
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 3: little bell and at that point, the bread and wine

397
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:18,399
Speaker 3: literally turns into Jesus' like body and blood. Yeah, like

398
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 3: that's what they think is happening. Yeah, I've tasted it.

399
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:26,200
Speaker 3: It's not Actually I don't want to anything for anybody,

400
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:31,679
Speaker 3: but it's uh yeah yeah, So I don't know, like

401
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 3: like having fantasies of cannibalism that are supposed to be

402
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 3: literal cannibalism at the center of your spiritual beliefs. But

403
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 3: then every.

404
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,920
Speaker 2: Right, the way they do it's bad though. Is it

405
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 2: just like a small piece of like a love That's

406
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 2: what it sounds like based on the reading that I've done. Uh,

407
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: And I mean it varies from place to place.

408
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 3: Right.

409
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 2: Again, this is something that we found evidence of in

410
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 2: every continent, right, so, like you know, different and different

411
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 2: groups of people probably had different attitudes is like which

412
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 2: parts and how you do it, But it's a thing

413
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 2: that occurs basically everywhere, right, And so this real practice

414
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 2: is going to be part of like what gets spun

415
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: out into these lurid stories of like predatory cannibalistic behavior

416
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 2: that are one of the pretexts for the genocide that's

417
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 2: going to come, right, Which is why talking about this

418
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: at all. There's a lot of aspects of this that

419
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 2: are really problematic, and there's some other real practices that

420
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 2: get misinterpreted and exaggerated. For one thing, infanticide, right, there

421
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 2: were like during times of starvation, and again this is

422
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 2: not just something that Aboriginal people did in Australia. This

423
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 2: is something all throughout human civilization. When everyone is starving

424
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 2: to death, sometimes you kill a newborn baby because it's

425
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: not going to be able to survive. Right, Yeah, Like

426
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,679
Speaker 2: we are talking about people who are living and with

427
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 2: wildly different margins than we can conceive of, and the

428
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 2: purpose here is not cruelty or some dark ritual which

429
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 2: is again what it often got spun out that they're

430
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 2: doing this for some sort of magic purpose. This is survival, right,

431
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 2: there's simply not enough food.

432
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 3: Right.

433
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: Everyone who has ever lived has relatives, if you go

434
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 2: far back enough, who had to make choices like this

435
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 2: because it's it's hard to live as a fucking like yeah,

436
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: and almost like a.

437
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 3: Mercier kissing in some cases, right, like like they're going

438
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 3: to starve to death.

439
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 2: I don't know if we're going to live. This baby

440
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 2: certainly can't, right, and so you you know, but what

441
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 2: you have is you have these people who are calling

442
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 2: themselves anthropologists, these Europeans traveling you know, through the continent,

443
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 2: and who find evidence of this, and they're not really anthropologists.

444
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 2: They're usually just like people with who are kind of

445
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 2: rich and so decide they do that as a hobby

446
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 2: and they wind up having their own biases or their

447
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 2: own bigotry, and they just kind of like weave this

448
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 2: story into ongoing narratives about how dangerous these people are, right,

449
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 2: And so this thing that's like, well, yeah, sometimes people

450
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 2: who are starving have to make hard choices gets turned

451
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,959
Speaker 2: into something else. I found an article on aboriginal Cannibalism

452
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 2: in Queensland on the University of Queensland's website, written by E. G.

453
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,479
Speaker 2: Heap in nineteen sixty seven, so this would have been

454
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: published at close to the peak of days of racist

455
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 2: anthropology on this matter. And even in this article the

456
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 2: author repeatedly points out how incredibly thin the actual evidence

457
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: is for many of the cannibalistic practices that were claimed

458
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 2: to be universal. Quote Thomas, who's one of the anthropologists

459
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: in this period, recorded a case on the Gascoyne River

460
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 2: in Western Australia where an Aboriginal girl was eaten and

461
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 2: killed and eaten by a native who decoyed her away.

462
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 2: She was very plump. The object of killing her was

463
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 2: to acquire this desirable quality. Bleekel, who's another scientist, also

464
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 2: referred to rare cases of the killing and eating of

465
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 2: a young girl on a special ritual occasion. But his

466
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: information is not documented. And that's the thing that you

467
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 2: find over and over again is like, here's this lurid

468
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 2: claim of someone being like eaten for this like ritual purpose.

469
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 2: There's no evidence that this happened, right, Look.

470
00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 3: It's actually no.

471
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, we got to put this in some art, some

472
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: newspaper articles, right yeah. And it's the same thing with

473
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 2: like these claims about the killing and eating of white

474
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 2: settlers by by these people, right, like, where a lot

475
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 2: of these claims there's simply like not any evidence of

476
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 2: there's evidence of like sometimes like people will be killed

477
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: and their bodies will be left out and animals will

478
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,239
Speaker 2: get to them. But people will be like, oh, well,

479
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 2: they must have been eaten after they were murdered, right, Like,

480
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 2: stuff like that happens a lot too. I presume there

481
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 2: are some cases of like people eating parts of defeated enemies,

482
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 2: and because that happens in various parts of the world,

483
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 2: so maybe that's the case. But again, over and over

484
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 2: again reading this paper, it's just here's this like lurid

485
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: story and there's no evidence.

486
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,719
Speaker 3: Those animals are so fucked up, I can't believe they

487
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 3: did that.

488
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the explanation behind the dial ato paths.

489
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, right, like monster must have eaten them. Their

490
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 3: tongues were missing, yeah, eyes were missing. It's like, yeah,

491
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 3: those are the soft there's animals.

492
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 2: And they're hungry because it's snowy.

493
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

494
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: And when I looked into this paper more because like

495
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: I found a bunch of cases where it's like, Okay,

496
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: here's a larid story and he says and there's no evidence.

497
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 2: So I decided to look at more into some of

498
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: the sources for this paper who were making claims about cannibalism.

499
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 2: And a major source in this paper is a woman

500
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: named Daisy May Bates. Bates was an Irish woman and

501
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 2: again a self taught anthropologist who expressed a mystic the

502
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 2: best kind. And she's kind of wandering around in like

503
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds, oh sorry, in the late eighteen hundreds

504
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: and early nineteen hundreds, and she's this mix of this

505
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: kind of like paternalistic sympathy towards aboriginal people, right, but

506
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 2: also a lot of bigotry. And she becomes maybe the

507
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 2: primary source during this period of claims about cannibalism. And

508
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 2: it sounds reliable, sounds reliable. It's one of those things,

509
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 2: and this is awful. What's frustrating. Discard everything she says,

510
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: because she is one of the only sources of like

511
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 2: ethnographic research we have on some some of these groups

512
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: of people from this period of time. But we also

513
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: know that she lies a lot. And in fact, I

514
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: found historian Bob Reese is like, she does good work

515
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: in some things quote with the notable exception of cannibalism. Basically,

516
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 2: you can't listen to anything she says when she brings

517
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: up cannibalism, right, like the stuff she has to say about,

518
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 2: like languages and stuff that's useful with the second she

519
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 2: brings up cannibalism, turn your brain off. She's full of shit,

520
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: which kind of makes me question the other stuff. But

521
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: I'm not an anthropologist like her, so baits this. This lady,

522
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 2: this cannibalism obsessed lady is a monarchist and an anti

523
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 2: union activist as well, so I'm not primed to like her.

524
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 2: She seems to have grown up obsession, act like she's

525
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 2: one of these people. Maybe I'll do another I might

526
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: want to do an episode on her at some point.

527
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: She's got a long history of like lying about her background,

528
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: like pretending to have come from a different place than

529
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: she did and be a different person that she is.

530
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 2: And she's got like she's obsessed with cannibalism. Kind of

531
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: later in life it becomes One historian describes it as

532
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: a fixation, which gets worse as she ages and she

533
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 2: starts to suffer from dementia. So she's like continuing to

534
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: work as an elderly woman getting increasingly crazy and obsessed

535
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: with cannibalism.

536
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: She could literally be the president right now. Yes, monarchist, racist,

537
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 3: like fucking making things up about her background, like was

538
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 3: she a time traveler?

539
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: No, No, she's just a very modern figure administration from dementia.

540
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 3: Jesus, he would have made.

541
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 2: Her the fucking ambassador to Australia.

542
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 3: Believes that she's qualified to do a job that she

543
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 3: is in no way qualified.

544
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: To do, honestly iconic, so ahead of her time. I

545
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: talked to you a little bit earlier about how some

546
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: like some of these peoples during times of starvation would

547
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: practice and fans decide right, which is again the thing

548
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: you see all over the world. Baits is the person

549
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: who spins that into claiming that they're doing infant cannibalism, right,

550
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: and she is the primary source in this period, is

551
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 2: like claiming that that is a thing that's happening. She

552
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: writes dozens of articles in newspapers about this practice, and

553
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty came claimed to have received the bones

554
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: of a baby that had been cooked and eaten by

555
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: its pregnant Aboriginal mother. Right the bones were you want

556
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 2: to guess what the bones came from?

557
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 3: Ooh dog cat?

558
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: Ah, you were close your quest Jack, Yeah, fucking cat bones.

559
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: She's lying about a cat bones being a cannibalized baby,

560
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: speaking of eating cats. Don't do that. Listen to these ads.

561
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: I thought the advertiser was.

562
00:29:50,200 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: Hello Fresh as a new product line. We're back and

563
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 2: our lawyers have sent I I'm not a loud to

564
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 2: accuse HelloFresh of serving cat meat.

565
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: Uh.

566
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: You know, until the court case finishes one way or

567
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: the other, we can't prove that they ate cat meat. Uh,

568
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: certainly can't prove it. And you know, are their allegations

569
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: that they serve cat meat are now absolutely now there

570
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: are for sure your cat. We can't prove it.

571
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: Your cats just sent me a text message and they're

572
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with this conversation.

573
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, well they do look delicious.

574
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 3: O my god.

575
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: Leaves the diamonds best friend.

576
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 2: Although well they've gotten fat lately. You know, they have

577
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: a good diet.

578
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 3: I'm just saying, yeah, I think they look great in

579
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 3: your meen.

580
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: That's right, that's I am.

581
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: And when Sophie says they look great, she means they

582
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 3: look like big cartoon hamlegs.

583
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's what they look to me. I didn't

584
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: have breakfast today, so I'm just I'm just looking at

585
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 2: everything that way.

586
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: So, by the way, it's three in the afternoon, everybody,

587
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 3: just so you know what, what kind of hours Robert

588
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 3: Keeves the audience.

589
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're aware by this point.

590
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

591
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 2: For an example of the kind of shit Baits was

592
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: writing in newspapers at this period of time, here's a

593
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: direct quote from her. I use the word cannibal advisedly.

594
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: Every one of these natives was a cannibal. Cannibalism had

595
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 2: its local name from Kimberly to Ucla and through all

596
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: the unoccupied country east of it, and there were many

597
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: grisly rights attached there too. Human meat had always been

598
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: their favorite food, and there were killing vendettas from time immemorial.

599
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 2: In order that the killing should be safe murderers, slippers

600
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: or pads were made Emu feathers twisted and twined together,

601
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: bound to the foot with human hair, on which the

602
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: natives walk and run as easily as a white man,

603
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: and running shoes their feet leaving no track.

604
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 3: So what does that have to do with Like, she's

605
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 3: just describing things that they have, like tools that they

606
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 3: have and being like, yeah, I'm sure they have like

607
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 3: shoes that allow them to move quiet, because that's useful

608
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: when you're hunting or in war. She's just like that

609
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 3: must be because they are trying to eat people.

610
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: And like, again you can find like actual debate between

611
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: you know, actual anthropologists about the different kinds of cannibalism

612
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: that may or may not have been practiced here. No

613
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: one agrees everyone was a cannibal. It was not the norm.

614
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 2: It was not wildly common, it was not certainly not

615
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: like your favorite it was normal, right, like whether it

616
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: was practiced in some groups or not. Again, there's there's

617
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 2: argument there, but it was like what she is saying

618
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: is a complete lie that she's made up because she's

619
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: gone crazy, and it's very racist.

620
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 3: They like cannibalism so much, they like try and marry it.

621
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: They weren't very cannibalism. It's their best friend.

622
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 2: She she would have married cannibalism. Yes, yes, she's she's

623
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: a cannibalism influencer. Yeah, like what Joe Rogan is to

624
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: fucking iyahuasca, this Baits Lady is to cannibalism and allegations

625
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: of cannibalism.

626
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: So frustrating that he is the psychedelics person.

627
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I've done way more fucking.

628
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 3: You're so much better at psychedelics, thinking you need to

629
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 3: take it back. This is this is our psychedelics guy,

630
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: not fucking Joe Joe Roe, Jesus Christ. Did you see a.

631
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: Special forget being the Joe Rogan of the Left? Robert's

632
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: the Psychedelics of the Left.

633
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 3: The psychedelics guy. Yeah, I could take steroids.

634
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: I believe in me. Yeah.

635
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 3: Did you see his stand up special? Or better yet,

636
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 3: did you see the elephant Graveyard analysis of his stand

637
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 3: up special? No, I will send that link to you.

638
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: I assume it's a literal elephant graveyard you're talking about.

639
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna look in that more.

640
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 3: That's the name of the channel. But they just like

641
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 3: go through there like we're really excited about Joe Rogan's

642
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 3: stand up special and then just like go joke for

643
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 3: joke and they're like, oh, no, show, what.

644
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: Things have gone downhill? Since? What was he? He wasn't

645
00:33:58,280 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: on The Man Show?

646
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: Was he fear Fact here?

647
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 3: No fear Factor? It was Adam Carolla?

648
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was on that show with Andy Dick.

649
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: Frankly, too much time on Joe Rogan, continue with the script.

650
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 2: Please, anyway, speaking of Andy Dick, the Andy Dick of

651
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: old timey European colonizers was Captain James Cook, who was

652
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 2: the first Englishman to enter the recorded history of the

653
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 2: people of Ghari. In seventeen seventy, he first sighted the

654
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 2: island and reported spotting several people on the shore. He

655
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: regarded them all as Indians, and he gave the island

656
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: the name Indian Head. So this is its name after

657
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 2: the Great Sandy Island. So we go from well, that's

658
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: at least accurate too. Okay, we're just being racist now great,

659
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 2: He in a colleague debated whether or not because again

660
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: there's like notes taken on board the ship, and the

661
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 2: notes are that James Cook is debating with like a colleague,

662
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: whether or not the skin color of these people meant

663
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: they were a new race of humans. He was kind

664
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 2: of tripped up by their hair, which he was surprised

665
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 2: to see was quote very much like ours. Wh yeah,

666
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: out of the same stuff, yeah yeah, wow, the same

667
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: kind of hair as same dang hair.

668
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,240
Speaker 3: Do you remember this article that we did at Cracked

669
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 3: about like the great explorers and all the just insane

670
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 3: lies that they told, like, well, because.

671
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 2: You you have to be out of your mind, and

672
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: if you're not out of your mind when you start

673
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: becoming an explorer, the months you spend dying at sea

674
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 2: are going to make you lose your mind.

675
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, they would be. Like I saw the person like

676
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 3: one of them was. I think they said they have

677
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 3: like eyes where their shoulders were, and like mouths in

678
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 3: the middle of their between their niggas.

679
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 2: The anthropophagy, I think are the is the name of

680
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: those that circulture.

681
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yes, yeah.

682
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: I still think they're real somewhere, but they just live

683
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 2: I saw one down the street from them as a kid.

684
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, they just live here.

685
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.

686
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 2: These are just like the world's best liars, Like, yeah,

687
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: I guess I would as a successful imagine because you,

688
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 2: like you wind up in like the center of like

689
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 2: a European capital, effectively in the center of their entire

690
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 2: media ecosystem. And you're like, so, have any of you

691
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 2: guys been to China? All right, I'm gonna just say

692
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: some shit. Nope, I get I can I can make

693
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 2: you guys believe anything.

694
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 3: Good news for me? They me as a God. Yeah.

695
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh so. The Butchola are the tribe that Cook

696
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: most likely saw first because they saw him as well,

697
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: and we have This is one of the things I

698
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 2: find so interesting about how kind of how much fidelity

699
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 2: there is with their oral tradition, how good it actually

700
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: is at at getting down history. We have their record

701
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 2: of seeing him right. So he's writing, he's got people

702
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 2: on his boat writing about seeing these people, and we

703
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: have them singing about seeing his ship. Per an article

704
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 2: by Fiona Foley, Ala artist and scholar right for the

705
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: Queensland College of Art at Griffith University. The Boschula people

706
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 2: were unique because not many people in the world would

707
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 2: be aware. They created a song recounting what was happening

708
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 2: when the ship passed by our country on May twentieth

709
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: of that year. The song takes place on a volcanic

710
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 2: headland of Ghari to the known in Bochula as Takiwaru.

711
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: What I love about this song are the layers of

712
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: metaphors contained within one verse. The ship rose out of

713
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 2: the sea like a cloud and kept near land for

714
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: three or four days. One day it came in very

715
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 2: close to Takiwaru, and they saw many men walking around

716
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: on it. They asked each other who are these strangers?

717
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 2: And where are they going? So you actually get like

718
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 2: a little bit of you know, like this record of

719
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,240
Speaker 2: like a conversation of both sides of it in this stase,

720
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: which is fairly rare when you're talking about story like

721
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 2: things like this, like first contact between you know, in

722
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 2: a digitous group and Europeans that you have like both

723
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 2: sides of like the very first conversation about seeing each other,

724
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: which I find really interesting.

725
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 3: And frequently they're like, and why do these guys smell?

726
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 3: Like shit? Yeah? Wow, the terrible why Like all the

727
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 3: European settlers just smelled. I mean, first of all, the

728
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 3: living off of boat.

729
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 2: Like they're over the side of this thing, right.

730
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 3: Just yeah, at first they're shitting over the side of it.

731
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 3: Rob By the end they're just like, I really am

732
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 3: so hungry, I can't even get up to the edge.

733
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 2: Every one of those sailors is like eighty percent GRDA

734
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 2: by body weights, Like they're just just stomach aller.

735
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 3: And like and swollen gums. That's the what ninety percent

736
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 3: of their body weights from? Man? Yeah, I mean that's

737
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 3: like even you know, I remember the that article that

738
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: I was talking about, like Marco Polo is one of them.

739
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 3: Is like whole claim to fame was going to China

740
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 3: and like becoming a great ruler in China and like

741
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 3: helping them fight a war. And you can go like

742
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 3: they were a way more advanced civilization, the most advanced civilization.

743
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 3: They had a they had a printing press at this point,

744
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 3: like well well ahead of your and so you can

745
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,760
Speaker 3: like go go back and look at their written record

746
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 3: and like it's just crickets as far as bar goes.

747
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 3: But we, you know, we just trust whatever. The random

748
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 3: guy who you know sailed around the Bend and then

749
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 3: just like came back five years later and was like

750
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 3: China ever heard of it? Great?

751
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, nope, Okay, I'm just gonna say, shit, now,

752
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: this is why I'm an Iban buttuitas Stan and not

753
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 2: a Marco Polo Stan.

754
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 3: There. Yeah cool, you always have book.

755
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: Him up, kids. He's cool. So he probably also did

756
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: some fucked up shit. Man, I'm not gonna lie. So

757
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: Fiona here, who's this Butchulla, scholar and artist who I

758
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 2: just quoted from, describes Cook's attempts to classify the denizens

759
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: of Gari in his decision to name the island Indian

760
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: Head as quote the first evidence of British racialization in Australia,

761
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 2: and cites Jody Byrd's book The Transitive Empire, which describes

762
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: this as part of a process that allowed the Empire

763
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 2: to quote facilitate, justify, and rationalize the state sponsored violence

764
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,879
Speaker 2: that tear lane and resources and sovereignty from indigenous people. Right,

765
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 2: And I think that it doesn't start with the actual

766
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: colonization or with even the legal code. It starts with

767
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 2: this guy on a boat trying to racially categorize this

768
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: people and taking the name of their island away from

769
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: them and making it kind of a racist copy. Right

770
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: that that's the start of the process of racialization that

771
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 2: ends that well, it leads to genocide. It doesn't end there,

772
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: but that's a part of it. Right. So this was

773
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 2: just the beginning of a long process of colonial violence,

774
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 2: and a major chapter in that history brings us back

775
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: to the person who is the subject of these episodes,

776
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 2: Eliza Fraser, right to set up the rest of this

777
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: so that we could talk about old Eliza. She was

778
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 2: possibly born Elizabeth Slack in Worksworth, Derbyshire, and baptized on

779
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: the first of June and seventeen ninety eight, although that

780
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 2: is debated. One writer in the nineteen thirties described her

781
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: as coming from the Orkney Islands, and there's a number

782
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 2: of people who will claim she came from the Orkney Islands,

783
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 2: but there's not evidence of that. A great grandson of

784
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: hers in New Zealand disputed this, arguing that she was

785
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 2: born in Ceylon in modern Sri Lanka, where her parents

786
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: lived at the time. We do not know for certain.

787
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: The article I found claiming that she was born Elizabeth

788
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 2: Shack in Derbyshire was like a Derbyshire website claiming her

789
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: as like a native daughter of the town. So I

790
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: don't know. Maybe they have a little bit of an agenda.

791
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 3: Anyone famous, you know, we don't care. Why let's just

792
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 3: get someone famous.

793
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: We're scrape in the bottom of the beryl in Derbyshire, Derbyshire.

794
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 3: Let's go to the genocide insiders. Let's yeah, we don't

795
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 3: have anybody lost.

796
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 2: The article really gives her like a pass on some

797
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 2: things that I would not. But anyway, we don't know

798
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 2: for sure, although it does look like Derbyshire is one

799
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 2: of the likelier ones. We do have evidence that she

800
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,479
Speaker 2: came from at least modest means, and enjoyed a good

801
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 2: education for her time, by which I mean as a

802
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: woman she learned to read and write in childhood, which

803
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 2: you know, you're not super poor generally. If that's happening

804
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: in England at this period.

805
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: Men thought that that was scientifically and physically impossible.

806
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 2: It's starting to change. By the time she'd been seventeen

807
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 2: ninety eight, is still pretty dark days for that. She

808
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 2: may have had a husband and at least one child

809
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 2: with someone else before she married Captain James Frasier. Maybe

810
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 2: not again, kind of some conflicting reports there, but she

811
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 2: marries this the sea captain whose boat, the Sterling Castle,

812
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 2: depending on again who you read, was either a crumbling

813
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: death trap or a relatively state of the art ship

814
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 2: for its time. The captain himself, her husband, is described

815
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: as either a pompous, fat old bore much of demand

816
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: by shipowners who had managed to overensure their vessels. In

817
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 2: other words, this guy's so incompetent you you hire him

818
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 2: to be a run your ship, to drunk drive your car, right,

819
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 2: if your insurance is good, He's going to drunk drive

820
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 2: your boat into oblivion. So that's one Claime about him.

821
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 2: I've also heard him described as urbane in his manners

822
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 2: and an attitude and features what is deemed a handsome man.

823
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 2: So either he was a drunk old boy who will

824
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 2: crash a ship, or he was like a handsome, you know,

825
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 2: polite and competent sea captain. You'll hear both stories. He's

826
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: been dead a long time. I simply don't know.

827
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 3: Love how mean the conflicting thing like the yeah, right,

828
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 3: a big fat idiot who is dumb shit, Yeah, sucks

829
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 3: shit at his job. And then like there's obviously the

830
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,959
Speaker 3: self edited Wikipedia entry where it's like urbane in his.

831
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 2: Manner, right, yeah, he was, like I was handsome as shit.

832
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 3: Picking up subtle things about how attractive he is.

833
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, his dick game, Like yeah, there's a

834
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: whole whole Wikipedia subcept suckset there. Yeah he was speaking

835
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 2: of dick game. He was fifty four and Eliza was

836
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 2: thirty seven when they left London on October twenty second,

837
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: eighteen thirty five, so there's a bit of an age

838
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 2: gap here. Now, as as is the norm for European parents,

839
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: they have no interest in parenting their and leave them

840
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 2: behind in Orkney to be watched over by a local

841
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: Presbyterian minister, which was the style at the times. Hey, kids,

842
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: we're going on a boat for like a year. We

843
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: may die or not. This minister's going to be your

844
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 2: dad and mom.

845
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 3: Now hang out with a priest.

846
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, this guy's gotta be in charge. Good call parenting

847
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 2: in the eighteen hundreds. Most accounts will say that Eliza

848
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 2: was pregnant when the vessel departed, although again there's some

849
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: dispute on the matter. The sterling made it to Sydney

850
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: the following May. So it sets out in October and

851
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 2: it makes it to Sydney by May and offload supplies

852
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 2: it had brought from England, which you know, this is Australia.

853
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 2: So the supplies are rum wine, beer, pickles, mustard. You

854
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: know the necessities, right, all the things Australians need to survive.

855
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 2: Starting with rum wine and beer. It picks up other

856
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 2: goods and charts a course to Singapore. And the route

857
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 2: to Singapore with these goods that it picks up in

858
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 2: Sydney is going to take it past Moreton Bay. Unfortunately

859
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 2: for everyone aboard, this takes them near the Swain Reefs,

860
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: which is a treacherous piece of sea for competent helmsman

861
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 2: to navigate, and some of the evidence suggests Captain Fraser

862
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 2: and his men may not have been the very best

863
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: seaman England ever produced, which you could also say, no,

864
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: I'm not going to make that joke. So the ship

865
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: ran aground on the reef and the crew of nineteen

866
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: got into two lifeboats. Captain Fraser, his wife, his thirteen

867
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 2: year old nephew, and several other sailors, including a guy

868
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: named Robert darsh who we'll talk about later, got into

869
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: one leaking longboat, and everyone else got into a Pinnas,

870
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 2: which is a slightly nicer boat. Both boats traveled together

871
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 2: for a time and they split their supplies between them,

872
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 2: which included brandy and beer.

873
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 3: But no water.

874
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 2: So again they've got little beer. Now you don't want water,

875
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: you know what water in this boat.

876
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 3: He just want some brandy and beer and some pickle

877
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 3: with mustard, if you right. Shit, we dropped that stuff

878
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 3: with the Aussies.

879
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, So they're just like drunk in the heat in

880
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 2: the tropics, which is going to slowly be killing them.

881
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: So everyone is slowly dying on these rescue boats. They

882
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 2: don't really know where they are. They do have guns though,

883
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 2: so they're they're drunk and disoriented, but heavily armed. The

884
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: nearest settlement to them is about three hundred and seventy

885
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 2: miles south of where the Fraser ran aground. But navigation

886
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 2: was difficult under these conditions. And again, no one particularly right, yeah, right, right,

887
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 2: No one's a master sailor here, right, We're not talking

888
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 2: about people who are great at what they're doing now.

889
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: In their defense, this is also difficult because Captain Fraser's

890
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: longboat is constantly taking on water, so they're baling it

891
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 2: out twenty four to seven while they're on it. Also

892
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 2: adding to the difficulty is that his wife goes into

893
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: labor on day three because it's pretty stressful having your

894
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 2: boat sink and then being on a longboat. So per

895
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: the most common accounting of the story, she delivers the

896
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 2: baby underwater because again the boat is constantly sinking and

897
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 2: the baby dies almost immediately, which geez, it's probably I

898
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 2: don't have trouble believing that if she was pregnant, because

899
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 2: babies don't do well in these conditions.

900
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 3: Being born underwater during a shipwreck, yes, bad way to

901
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 3: have a baby. To people who have only consumed alcohol.

902
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: Only source of galleries are beer and brandy. Yes, yeah,

903
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 2: I don't know what happened. How did the baby not

904
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 2: make it? If she did give birth and have the

905
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 2: baby die, it's kind of amazing she lived right like

906
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 2: this is it does point to her being physically pretty resilient.

907
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 3: Unbelievable.

908
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, now this is not part of the story. Part

909
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 2: of why people doubt whether or not Cheerly was pregnant

910
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 2: is that when she first gets rescued, she does not

911
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 2: talk about having a baby. She doesn't talk about this

912
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: in the first or second version of events that she dictated.

913
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 2: Later writers would only say that she she avoided this

914
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: until her story had gone eighteen hundred's viral quote, probably

915
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 2: through modesty. In other words, she didn't what it was

916
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: kind of shameful to talk about, so she didn't initially,

917
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: But she also does when she starts raising a bunch

918
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: of money, So there's some bid. Did she just make

919
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: this up to kind of get sympathy, because she definitely

920
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 2: does some of that, right, we really don't know. Two

921
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: days later processing this in several other traumas, Captain Fraser

922
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 2: was finally forced to put his failing boat ashore to

923
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 2: find water. Eliza would later claim that she figured out

924
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: how to get fresh water by lowering her skirt into

925
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 2: a crack and ringing enough water out of it to

926
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 2: fill their containers. She does lie about almost every part

927
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: of this story, and I don't assume this is true,

928
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 2: just because, like, well, this pretty obvious way to get water.

929
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 2: And I'm going to guess other people on these boats

930
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: had more experience foraging for water than her, So I

931
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: don't know if she had to teach all of them this.

932
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 2: But they didn't have dresses on though, right, and they

933
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 2: didn't have dresses at any rate. They fill up their water,

934
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 2: they finally have water, and they continue their journey until

935
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 2: they run out of water again. Eliza claims that she

936
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 2: was able to survive on seawater, but all of the

937
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,720
Speaker 2: men got sick when they tried. And this is definitely

938
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 2: a lie because you simply can't survive on seawater.

939
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, that's a superpower. That's like her being like

940
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 3: and then I just that just flew to the island.

941
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I levitated above the leaky boat. Yeah, you cannot

942
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 2: survive on seawater. It's generally three or four percent sodium.

943
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 2: Obviously drinking some like if you've ever gone swimming is fine,

944
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 2: but your kidneys need fresh water to process out all

945
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,760
Speaker 2: of the sodium, and if you do not have fresh water,

946
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 2: you will get sick. Don't try to live off of seawater.

947
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 2: They're sort of traveling around the islands off that coast,

948
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 2: you know, periodically stopping when they need more water, trying

949
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 2: to find food, and eventually they wind up off the

950
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 2: coast of what was then called Indian Head, right based

951
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 2: on what Captain Cook had called it. The indigenous people

952
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 2: are still calling it Ghari. But Captain Fraser doesn't want

953
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 2: to get on the big island because number one, he

954
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 2: thinks it's a chunk of the Australian mainland. But number two,

955
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 2: he's been told everyone here is a cannibal, so he's

956
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 2: like scared of they can see people, and he doesn't

957
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 2: want to get close to people because he thinks they'll

958
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 2: eat him. One day, though, the pinnace, which is the

959
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 2: second boat with them, goes out to find water, while

960
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 2: the longboat kind of waits by the shore and it

961
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 2: never comes back. The people on it do eventually find

962
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 2: their way back to civilization. I don't know if they

963
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 2: just abandoned Eliza and her husband. Maybe because they found

964
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: them annoying.

965
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 3: They're so annoying.

966
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there is some evidence.

967
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 3: History changed based on like how annoying someone is. Yeah,

968
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 3: the survivors were like, yeah, she sucked for a different

969
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 3: podcast looking into the day Lincoln was assassinated, and like

970
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 3: the only reason that ulysses As Grant wasn't there was

971
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:56,919
Speaker 3: because ulysses As Grant's wife found Mary Todd Lincoln annoying. Yeah,

972
00:50:58,120 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 3: completely changed the course of history.

973
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 2: You know, folks, you have to follow your instincts. If

974
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: you think someone's annoying, you're definitely gonna die if you

975
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 2: go out to a party with them.

976
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 1: Never underestimate having that one annoying friend that you keep

977
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: around just to avoid assassinations.

978
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

979
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the whole reason the guy you created Family

980
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: Guys survived nine to eleven. If I'm remembering correctly, had

981
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: bad vibes about a flight turned out to be a

982
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 2: bad flight to be Yeah, I don't remember if that's

983
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 2: exactly what happened, but he definitely was supposed to be

984
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:28,320
Speaker 2: on one of those flights.

985
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 3: They're like, he keeps doing the quagmire voice.

986
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're one.

987
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:35,879
Speaker 3: Stop saying giggity giggity man.

988
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 2: No, they would let anybody on flights back then, as

989
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: as evidenced by nine to eleven happenings.

990
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 3: Right, what a time.

991
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: Wow.

992
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 2: So anyway, they get abandoned off the coast of Gari,

993
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 2: and you know, they spend about a week kind of

994
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:02,280
Speaker 2: sailing around the coast because again they're scared of the cannibals,

995
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 2: and they managed to like live off of limpets that

996
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,879
Speaker 2: they tear off of rocks before eventually getting desperate enough

997
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 2: that like, fuck it, let's try our luck. We're going

998
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 2: to die either way. It's kind of I said earlier.

999
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,280
Speaker 2: They think they found the mainland. We don't one hundred

1000
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 2: percent know if they know this is an island or not,

1001
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 2: but most accounts will say they thought this was somewhere

1002
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 2: on the mainland that was just isolated from European civilization.

1003
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 2: They are met very quickly by five locals with spears. Now,

1004
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 2: contrary to all these myths that Captain Fraser had believed

1005
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 2: that these people were cannibals, these folks, these Butchola people

1006
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 2: see strange white people come aground and they show up

1007
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 2: with food. Right, They're like, you guys look like shit.

1008
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 2: You are obviously dying. We've watched you sailing, We've watched

1009
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 2: you like boating around the coast, trying to eat liftoff

1010
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 2: of limpets. You're clearly dying. I don't know why you

1011
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: didn't come for help earlier. Here's some food, right, This

1012
00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 2: is very obviously a humanitarian gesture. But even in modern

1013
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 2: casual accounts like this write up I found in Great

1014
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 2: British Life, which is the one that wants to take

1015
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 2: credit for her coming from Derbyshire, this humanitarian gesture is

1016
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 2: often described as like gross and savage. Quote the Machola

1017
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,800
Speaker 2: people approached them with decomposing kangaroo meat. When a sailor

1018
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 2: ate some they took some of his clothing and like

1019
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 2: what man number one? They don't have refrigerators right, like

1020
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 2: this is this happens in like the winter, so it's

1021
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 2: not a great seat. They don't have a lot of food,

1022
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 2: like this kind of going off like kangaroo meat is

1023
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 2: the best they can do, and it's better than you

1024
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 2: were able to do for yourselves, like this is a

1025
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 2: this is a nice thing.

1026
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 3: They approached them with fruit that had brown spots on y.

1027
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, fuck, and like they give him food and they're like, hey,

1028
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 2: can I try on your clothes? Like, I haven't seen

1029
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 2: anything like that. It's weird. It's a pretty normal thing

1030
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 2: to do. You're meeting some very culture. Can I try

1031
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 2: that hat? I've never worn a hat?

1032
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 3: What is that? Yeah, to this day, athletes exchange jerseys, right,

1033
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 3: you know, it's a thing that's done, and it's not

1034
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 3: a sign of war. It's a sign of like, hey,

1035
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 3: this is silly.

1036
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 2: When I met you, you gave me some rancid kangaroo meat,

1037
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 2: although for a different reason that we don't need to

1038
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 2: get into.

1039
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 3: And then we exchanged shirts.

1040
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 2: We did exchange shirts. Yes, that was more to Yeah,

1041
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 2: it was a weird hallucinogen. Yeah, the rant of kangaroo meat. Yeah,

1042
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 2: if you get making in the high meat, you trip

1043
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 2: off of it. Yeah, that's right. Look it up, folks.

1044
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 2: So not long after this, eight of the remaining men

1045
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 2: who had gotten like landed with Captain Fraser and Eliza

1046
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 2: either try to leave or like walk off to try

1047
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 2: to find a town to get rescued for everyone else,

1048
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 2: or they just dessert. We don't really know. Crewman Harry

1049
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 2: Yolden is the source of the claim that like we deserted,

1050
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 2: and he blames Eliza for making them desert right quote,

1051
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 2: she was a terrible liar and the most profane, artful,

1052
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 2: wicked woman that ever lived, and this does comport with

1053
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 2: some of her later behavior. Although other crewmen alleged that

1054
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 2: Yolden was the problem and he stole a bunch of

1055
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 2: water that like, way more water than he was supposed

1056
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 2: to be drinking, both of these could be true. Maybe

1057
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 2: they both sucked right. He Also, Yolden also called Eliza

1058
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 2: a she captain, which is him insulting both her and

1059
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 2: her husband.

1060
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, he sounds like the worst it's possible for everyone

1061
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 3: to such stirring shit in the middle of the life

1062
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 3: and death thing, just like shit stirring on a new level,

1063
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 3: being like, oh well, I guess we should listen to

1064
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 3: our captain our wife. Yeah.

1065
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: At the same time, I do think that you should

1066
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: now address me as she captain, as she captain, because

1067
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 1: it's kind of grown on me in the last thirty seconds.

1068
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 2: I don't feel like you need to gender captain. Like

1069
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:41,919
Speaker 2: it's not an inherently masculine or feminine work.

1070
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's kind of a flow to it. She.

1071
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,439
Speaker 2: It's like calling somebod a she person. You don't really

1072
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 2: need to do that. That just kind of sounds fucked up. Yeah,

1073
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 2: So Eliza alleged that Yolden at one point threatened to

1074
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 2: throw the captain overboard while they were still on the boat.

1075
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,760
Speaker 2: I don't know, uh, And also, depending on how competent

1076
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 2: Captain Fraser was, this may have been an understandable move.

1077
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 2: I can see a version of the story. We're throwing

1078
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 2: him overboard might have been the best thing for everyone

1079
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: at any rate. After they are rescued by the bachola,

1080
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 2: the group splits up and Darj Yolden and four other

1081
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: men head for where they think is Moreton Bay. But

1082
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:20,439
Speaker 2: Moreton Bay is on the mainland, so again they don't

1083
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 2: really know where they are. Eliza her husband good navigators.

1084
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 3: We're gonna head over to Sydney.

1085
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 2: It's like east, and I think East is left, so yeah,

1086
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 2: we'll just try that.

1087
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 3: They've been at sea, like offshore, sailing around the island

1088
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 3: for the past like few weeks, and now I think.

1089
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 2: I say they're bad at this.

1090
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 3: I'm sure it's hard, Yeah, for sure.

1091
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 2: I haven't tried to navigate this way without access to

1092
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 2: a backup land. Eliza, her husband, and four other men

1093
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 2: go south with the bachola. Right now, most of them

1094
00:56:54,640 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 2: have guns, but they become separated at some point, or

1095
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 2: several of them become separated at some point. It's a

1096
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 2: little bit unclear exactly what happens. All of these stories

1097
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 2: are kind of different, but Eliza and her husband wind

1098
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 2: up living with the batola for several months, and the

1099
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 2: first thing that she reports the Patrolla show them how

1100
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 2: to do is dig a hole in the sand so

1101
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 2: that it fills with water and then add leaves from

1102
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 2: a local shrub to improve the taste. Right, So again,

1103
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 2: they're like trying to teach them how to survive. They

1104
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 2: are attempting to do a humanitarian things, right those monthster like, oh,

1105
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 2: you guys are always you're dipping your filthy clothing into

1106
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 2: water to like, no, this is how you get nice

1107
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 2: clean water.

1108
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 3: Patiently teaching them how to not die. She's like, oh

1109
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 3: my god, they're trying to kill me.

1110
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, Eliza admits that they did this, but she

1111
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 2: also claims they demanded clothing from the men and beat

1112
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 2: one of them when he refused. And here's how John Wright,

1113
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 2: the author of that Derbyshire Life article, describes what happened next.

1114
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 2: They're dwindling numbers made the Aborigines. Again, that's not Aboriginal

1115
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 2: people preferred terb but this is how he writes it

1116
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 2: bolder in the exchange of clothing continued until they were naked.

1117
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 2: The men were led away, leaving Eliza naked apart from

1118
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 2: some trailing sea grape plant she tied around her waist.

1119
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 2: Aboriginal women took her to their camp, prodded her and

1120
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 2: pulled her hair. They gave her a baby to breastfeed

1121
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 2: as its mother was sick, and painted her body with

1122
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 2: charcoal and lizard grease to make her skin darker. Now

1123
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 2: this is largely wrong. It's based on a mix of

1124
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 2: three different accounts left by Frasier and several subsequent books,

1125
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 2: one of which is fiction based on her story. Some

1126
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 2: of these details are true, but are missing important details.

1127
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 2: For example, the story about them painting her with charcoal

1128
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 2: and grease is likely true, but they didn't do it

1129
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 2: to make her skin darker. There's substantial documentation that the

1130
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 2: Bochola used charcoal to treat wounds, rubbing it into like

1131
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 2: an injury as a sav or ungwin perhaps mixed with herbs, right,

1132
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 2: and this can actually be effective. You don't have better

1133
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 2: methods right available, Like this is a thing that the

1134
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 2: Beachola and other people do. So this account and other

1135
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 2: accounts are like, oh, they did it because they wanted

1136
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 2: to make her skin darker like theirs. It's like, no,

1137
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 2: she was probably covered in cuts because she'd been shipwrecked

1138
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 2: and at sea for months and they were trying to

1139
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 2: treat her injuries.

1140
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,959
Speaker 3: Blackface was actually their idea. It's not something that we

1141
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 3: do on our Yeah, they actually came up with the now, yeah,

1142
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 3: because they thought it was cool. Yeah.

1143
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 2: It looks to me like they were again trying to

1144
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 2: teach her how to have clean water and deal with

1145
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 2: her injuries so she doesn't die. And also, the story

1146
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 2: about being forced to nurse is not in either of

1147
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 2: Eliza's original accounts, and she in fact does not bring

1148
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 2: this up at all until she gets back to London,

1149
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 2: which is like the third version of the story she gives,

1150
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 2: which is also when she adds the part of the

1151
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 2: story that she gave birth on a lifeboat. So again,

1152
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 2: maybe she was just embarrassed to talk about it earlier,

1153
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 2: or maybe she knew that this. She was raising money

1154
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 2: off of the story at this point, so maybe she

1155
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 2: just knew that like, oh, adding in that they made

1156
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 2: me breastfeed one of their babies. That's going to really

1157
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 2: like be freaky to all of these like white British

1158
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 2: people that like, I was made to do this. I'll

1159
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 2: just throw that into the story too. She would also

1160
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 2: later claim to have been given the job of maggot

1161
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 2: picking right, otherwise picking like maggots out of injuries, and

1162
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 2: maybe she was that's the thing you need, you're going

1163
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 2: to have people do, and they have her work, not

1164
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 2: like in a mean way, but because you don't survive

1165
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 2: as a group of people living this way unless everyone

1166
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 2: does stuff right. In general, she alleges beasteal treatment from

1167
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 2: the Butchola, who, by her accounts, forced her and the

1168
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 2: other survivors into hard labor and beat them when they

1169
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 2: failed to work at a sufficient pace. Now it's important

1170
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 2: that we take a second here to look at how

1171
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,640
Speaker 2: the Bachola would have seen these white people at this

1172
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 2: point in time. They have had very little contact with Europeans,

1173
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 2: and their traditional concept of the world was a lot

1174
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 2: smaller than it would become. Since part of their funerary

1175
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 2: ritual involved skinning the dead, which left them looking white.

1176
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 2: They interpreted the first white people they saw as something

1177
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 2: like ghosts returned to corporeal form. Right, these are the

1178
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 2: ghosts of our dead who have come back to us.

1179
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 3: Right.

1180
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 2: That's at least, you know, an anthropological account that I found,

1181
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 2: and it was common. Some of the evidence for this

1182
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 2: is that it was really common in this period for

1183
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 2: stranded whites who like wound up on the island to

1184
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 2: get adopted into different bands on Gari after one member

1185
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 2: of a tribe or another would be like, oh, I

1186
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 2: think this is the returned spirit of like my husband

1187
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 2: or my kid, right, And so that was kind of

1188
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 2: like the way that they rationalized what they were doing

1189
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 2: and sort of you know, what was going on under

1190
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 2: the hood here. Another thing that's happening in this period

1191
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 2: is that, you know, you've got cities like Sydney, which

1192
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 2: are European cities and thus have European prisons, and sometimes

1193
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 2: convicts will escape these prisons on mainland settlements and they'll flee,

1194
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 2: and some of them will wind up on these islands

1195
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 2: and they will be taken in by the Bachula and

1196
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 2: other tribes. And again the same kind of justification is

1197
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 2: used when someone arrives a nineteen seventy seven paper in

1198
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 2: the Journal of Occupational Papers in Anthropology noted quote. The

1199
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 2: most likely to have reached the island first was James Davis,

1200
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 2: who ran in March eighteen twenty nine and subsequently joined

1201
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 2: the Bachula on the Mary River. Although initially known to

1202
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 2: coastal Aborigines as Dunnbot, meaning small one, among the Bachula,

1203
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 2: he became Thorimbi, the reincarnated son of a tribal elder

1204
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 2: killed in battle some years before. Again to tales of

1205
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 2: Davis's exploits are sparse, for he was a particularly taciturn

1206
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 2: individual who remained tight jawed about much of his fourteen years.

1207
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,920
Speaker 2: Experiences as a wild white man. David Bracewells for Bossi

1208
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 2: earned him the name want or Talker, but it was

1209
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 2: not until his fourth abstention from Warreton Bay after July

1210
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 2: eighteen thirty nine that he actually mentions having passed over

1211
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 2: to Fraser's Island, called Gari by the natives, right he

1212
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 2: spells at Karina. I don't understand why, but it's pronounced Kai,

1213
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 2: where he remained for nearly a year. His impression was

1214
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 2: that its inhabitants were very numerous, he thinks thousands, and

1215
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 2: at their great fights he has seen them, covering the

1216
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 2: beach for four miles in extent. Finally, John Failey, called Gizburi,

1217
01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 2: after a long trek from Armadol to the Mary River

1218
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 2: via the Bunyel festivals in the Black All Ranges, moved

1219
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 2: with the Aboriginal people of White Bay for almost twelve years,

1220
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 2: helping them to plan raids against early White settlers, before

1221
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 2: being retaken by Lieutenant Bly and his Native mounted police

1222
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 2: in December eighteen fifty four. Fayhee, it seems, became the

1223
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 2: most totally incorporated of all the fugitives into Aboriginal lifestyles,

1224
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 2: passing through the Bora ceremony and bearing upon his body

1225
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 2: the Musgara scars and the Eppelate Bora marks on the

1226
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 2: white shoulder. After enduring the brutal privations of convict life,

1227
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 2: each of these escapees testified to the comparatively kindly treatment

1228
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 2: they received from the Aboriginal people. In John Fahy's case,

1229
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 2: his Black kinsmen fought bitterly with the Native troopers to

1230
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 2: prevent his recapture. Upon his return to Sydney, However, officialdom

1231
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 2: casually awarded Fayhee a year's imprisonment on the roads and

1232
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 2: chains and forgot him. This is like fascinating story of

1233
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 2: like these people who have been tossed out by their

1234
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 2: own culture and like you have no value, but like

1235
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 2: being chained to a gang, working on the roads or

1236
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 2: locked in a cage, and they're adopted as members of

1237
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 2: the family by some of these groups. I find that

1238
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 2: particularly the case of Fah where he's like helping them

1239
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 2: raid at like white settlers, and they're like fighting, you know,

1240
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 2: tooth and nail to the death to stop him from

1241
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 2: being recaptured. They like, you know, ritually scar his body.

1242
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 2: They take it's it's I wish we knew more about

1243
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 2: that guy. It's an amazing story.

1244
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, all of these interpretations where it's like and they

1245
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 3: thought we were ghosts and were like it's like but

1246
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 3: then all of the stories when people when they're living

1247
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 3: side by side, it's always people love to like go

1248
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 3: join the tribe and like are accepted in.

1249
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 2: It seems to be a mix. Like some of these

1250
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 2: people do go back and forth. A couple of these

1251
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 2: guys go back several times, will like try to make

1252
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 2: it in Europe and then head back to the tribe.

1253
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 2: Like some of them have like families that they will

1254
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 2: periodically leave and then come back to So it is

1255
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 2: like a it's like a complicated, for sure exchange here,

1256
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 2: but certainly like like especially the case of Fahy, this

1257
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 2: guy who is like, oh you know what these people rip,

1258
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 2: I'm going to help him kill like these colonizers, right,

1259
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 2: sounds like and then yeah, dies abandoned in a chain

1260
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 2: gang by the British authorities. Yeah. Real bummer, real bummer.

1261
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 2: But yeah, Like fascinating stuff and the fact that it's

1262
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 2: one of those things. One of the things I find

1263
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 2: interesting that we'll talk about more in part two is

1264
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:27,919
Speaker 2: this belief that like these people with white skin are

1265
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 2: like returning spirits, isn't going to last. Right, This is

1266
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 2: a belief that exists primarily when they have not had

1267
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 2: a lot of contact with Europeans. They don't keep believing

1268
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 2: that forever, right, Like, it becomes very clear as they

1269
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 2: have more and more Oh no, no, no, these are

1270
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:45,960
Speaker 2: these people are something else, and they're kind of a

1271
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 2: problem for us, right, Like, this is something that changes

1272
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 2: because this is not a static culture. Right, They're capable,

1273
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 2: like any culture, of adapting to times because they're people, right, Like,

1274
01:05:57,320 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 2: this isn't just like this is the thing they believed.

1275
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 2: It's like, no, this was like a belief that existed

1276
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:04,360
Speaker 2: at a period of time and changed after contact with

1277
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 2: the world.

1278
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 3: Right on first pass. They were like, they look different.

1279
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 3: There must be a reason for this.

1280
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 2: Oh no, there's yeah, kind of like our dead people.

1281
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 2: Maybe they're like, you know, this is something that happens.

1282
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1283
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:19,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like when you think about like the

1284
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:22,960
Speaker 2: what they had in access to information wise, it's not

1285
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 2: an a logical conclusion to come to initially. So and

1286
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 2: again it's important here at this point, as we kind

1287
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 2: of close this episode out, that I make two acknowledgments.

1288
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 2: The first is that even though the vast bulk of

1289
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 2: the evidence suggests that the people who took in Eliza

1290
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 2: and her husband and shipmates were trying to be kind

1291
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 2: and welcome them in essentially as members of the family,

1292
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 2: this still would have been disorienting and terrifying for Eliza

1293
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:48,800
Speaker 2: and her shipmates, and not just because they're racist, because like,

1294
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 2: you don't know these people language, you don't understand entirely

1295
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 2: what they're trying to do. It is a scary situation,

1296
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 2: even if you're not a bigot. It's like scary because

1297
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 2: you can't communicate direct with these folks, and some of

1298
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 2: them are going to get angry at you, right, like

1299
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:08,280
Speaker 2: because you're not good at hunting and gathering, and you're

1300
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 2: kind of dragging the rest of the group down and

1301
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 2: taking away resources of them, right.

1302
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 3: And you're like another mouth to feed. You're like that baby.

1303
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 3: They're like, God, can I he just fucking bashes ahead

1304
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 3: in with a rock, right could? I? Like, it's what

1305
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 3: are we doing here? Right?

1306
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 2: And like, like many cultures, like there is like corporal

1307
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 2: punishment if you're not pulling your weight, maybe you get smacked, right,

1308
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:31,400
Speaker 2: you get yelled at, or you get smacked, right, Because

1309
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:34,600
Speaker 2: that's just like a thing that's not in common with people,

1310
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 2: and these folks are not They're like children, right like

1311
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 2: you have to they can't. They're not learning how to

1312
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 2: do anything fast enough, and they require a lot of

1313
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 2: food to keep alive.

1314
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 3: So many wacky misunderstandings and understandings, and also just these

1315
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 3: people this is the starving time of the year, so

1316
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 3: you have to also keep in mind when members of

1317
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 3: the Bachola are doing stuff like smacking them for not

1318
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:01,920
Speaker 3: being good at gathering food, they're starving actively because it's

1319
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 3: the starving season, Right, you go hungry at points in

1320
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 3: the year regularly because it's just kind of hard to

1321
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 3: live this way. They gave me a spanking on my

1322
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:13,800
Speaker 3: little bottom, these savages.

1323
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 2: Right, And when we talk about like, yeah, maybe they'd

1324
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:18,679
Speaker 2: get smacked, you know, smacked around or hit or something

1325
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 2: for not doing a job correctly, that is the same

1326
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 2: in the culture they came from. The most common phrase

1327
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:27,640
Speaker 2: to describe how the British Navy is held together in

1328
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 2: this period is rum sodomy and the lash otherwise keeping

1329
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 2: them drunk, letting them fuck each other and whipping them

1330
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 2: until they're bloody when they don't perform at the expected level, right,

1331
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 2: Like Captain Fraser would have whipped people on his ship.

1332
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,640
Speaker 2: So the fact that they are also being subject to

1333
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 2: probably some corporal punishment when they fuck up is not

1334
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 2: like alien to them, right, Their own culture does this.

1335
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 3: He's like, but not me, Yeah, Captain Fraser.

1336
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:59,480
Speaker 2: Sometimes people you know, smack each other. It's not uncommon.

1337
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:03,640
Speaker 2: This is not bachola thick. So the worst that we

1338
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:06,599
Speaker 2: might say then about the beatola is they expected these

1339
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 2: guests or ghosts or whatever however they saw them to

1340
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:11,600
Speaker 2: pull their own weight, and they weren't afraid to, like,

1341
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:14,679
Speaker 2: you know, chastise them if they put the group in danger.

1342
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:18,439
Speaker 2: Much of Eliza and the European world's horror at her

1343
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:20,559
Speaker 2: treatment is going to come from the fact that the

1344
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:22,840
Speaker 2: Beatola they didn't It's not that they treated her as

1345
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:25,680
Speaker 2: a slave or as a captive, but they treated her

1346
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 2: like an equal, and for the rest of her life,

1347
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 2: Eliza Fraser is never going to forgive them for this,

1348
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 2: and neither are the Europeans. Jesus, that's all coming in

1349
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 2: part two, Jack.

1350
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:39,639
Speaker 3: That sounds like it's going to be a really fun

1351
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:42,559
Speaker 3: part two without any horrifying information to learn.

1352
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's all good. From here. They start a

1353
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:49,760
Speaker 2: dance troop smooth yea, they dance it out, they open

1354
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 2: a B and B together. Yeah, it's great. It's all

1355
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 2: gonna be good. All right, Jack, You anything to plug.

1356
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:02,480
Speaker 3: I do, Robert, thank you so much for asking. I

1357
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:05,479
Speaker 3: co host a show called The Daily Zeitgeist with Miles Gray,

1358
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 3: also a guest on this show in the past. We're

1359
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 3: on there every like every weekday. I believe that can't

1360
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:19,920
Speaker 3: be right. That's too many, too many damn shows. Yeah,

1361
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 3: Monday through Friday we drop at least an episode, so

1362
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 3: you can find me there, and I'm on Twitter at

1363
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:29,639
Speaker 3: Jack Underscore O Brian and on blue Sky at jack

1364
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:32,880
Speaker 3: Obi the number one because I didn't get on Blue

1365
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:34,120
Speaker 3: Sky fast enough.

1366
01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 2: Right right, Well, either get on Blue Sky or don't. Honestly,

1367
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 2: I think we've all had enough social media at this point.

1368
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 2: Maybe light your computer on fire.

1369
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 3: That's an interesting idea.

1370
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:47,440
Speaker 2: Burn your own house down with all of your electronics

1371
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:50,000
Speaker 2: in it, except whatever electronics you use to listen to

1372
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 2: this podcast. Don't stop listening to this podcast. Accept this advice.

1373
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:00,600
Speaker 3: Obviously, burn down your neighborhood.

1374
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:03,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, let's end on that note.

1375
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:09,639
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1376
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1377
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:16,679
Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1378
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:19,880
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1379
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:24,000
Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1380
01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:27,759
Speaker 1: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1381
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:30,160
Speaker 1: at Behind the Bastards.