1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio outwardly. I closed 2 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: the door on the person I'd become and walked away 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: into a new world. Even with my wife, even with 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: the new friends to whom I owed my life, I 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: almost never spoke about what had happened back there. I 6 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: felt I shouldn't because it was so ugly, and I 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: felt I didn't have to because I had survived. 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: That's Garth risk Hauber, author of the novels City on 9 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: Fire and The Second Coming. Garth's recent essay in the 10 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 2: Atlantic is a story of fathers, sons, legacy, and the 11 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: long reach of silence and shame that is only shattered 12 00:00:54,200 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 2: when we speak the truth of ourselves. I'm Danny Shapiro, 13 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 2: and this is family Secrets, the secrets that are kept 14 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 2: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 15 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 2: secrets we keep from ourselves. 16 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: The landscape of my childhood is a swath of land 17 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: that connects Louisiana, where I was born, with North Carolina, 18 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: where we moved when I was two or three, and 19 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: where I grew up. The landscape is hot, humid, dusty, 20 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: not particularly populated, and bisected by railroad tracks that you 21 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: know even in the nineteen eighties. Divide the halves from 22 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: the have nots, and it's a. 23 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 3: Landscape I didn't feel particularly. 24 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: Well suited to in some way, like, you know, as 25 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: if I had been born without some adaptation that would 26 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: make me be able to get along contentedly there. When 27 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: I was a child, I always had no real way 28 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: of processing this feeling of disconnection that I had from 29 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: my surroundings. As an adult, I kind of go back 30 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: and puzzle it out and try to figure out what 31 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: was that. But one thing that's emerged for me in 32 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: hindsight is just I live in the New York area now, 33 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: and sort of from a distance, I can see how 34 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: deeply conservative the places I grew up were. And I 35 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: don't mean that in a political sense at all. I 36 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: just mean in the way that you were felt to 37 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: have been born into something and your role was to 38 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: accept that thing and perpetuate it. And that seemed to 39 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: kind of cut across class lines. It was like everyone 40 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: was trying to become their their father or their mother 41 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: conservative in that way. The goal wasn't necessarily, you know, 42 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: breaking out or doing something different. So I was not 43 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: particularly well suited for that. I had kind of a 44 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: restless imagination, and I kind of escaped into books. The 45 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: other thing that emerges, you know, in hindsight for me 46 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: is I was a very expressive kid, Like I didn't 47 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: really know how to turn it down. Like I talked 48 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: with my hands if I still do, and I talked 49 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: too much, and I talked about the wrong things. I 50 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: think I knew that I was supposed to be kind 51 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: of toning it down. I think I knew that getting 52 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: along with people meant putting the brakes on, but standing 53 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: off the rough edges of that. I that I kind 54 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: of felt like were who I was, but I I 55 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: just felt like I didn't know how to do that. 56 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: The adaptation I was missing was like I didn't understand 57 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: how to be less who I am. My mother was 58 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: from New Orleans, so she was a Southerner. Her mother 59 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: was from Mississippi, and her father was from Charles. But 60 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: my dad was from Ohio and he was an associate 61 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: professor at the local land Brand College. You know, on 62 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: one side like even more deeply Southern, in another side 63 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: like not Southern at all. My mom was also an 64 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: English teacher, but she I think when we first moved 65 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: to North Carolina, I think she was like an adjunct 66 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: professor at the college, but she couldn't get like a 67 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: full time gig there, so she ended up working as 68 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: a receptionist for a few years, or like an assistant 69 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: to a lawyer, and then she ended up being an 70 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: English teacher in high school. In fact, she was ended 71 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 1: up being my high school English teacher. 72 00:04:58,160 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 4: That's just what you want in high school is for 73 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 4: your to be so yeah. 74 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing, nothing will really, you know, smooth over the 75 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: social awkwardness of the two expressive kid who you know 76 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: does not to fit in, like having it his mother 77 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: be his English teacher and everybody else's in. 78 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 4: Your father was a novelist. 79 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: You know. When I was a little kid, he was 80 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: publishing short stories if you publish a novel, I think 81 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: when I was eighty or nine. Yeah, he was doing 82 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: it in that very eighties kind of like writing realist 83 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: fiction and trying to get a teaching job somewhere. Way. 84 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: He was a great storyteller, which is interesting because having 85 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in South I think about 86 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: as being a very Southern thing, but it was in 87 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: fact my Midwestern father who was the great storyteller, and 88 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: he was a very expressive guy that you know that 89 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: may have been some of where I got that from, 90 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: and also never quite comfortable in his own skin. I 91 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: have come to think, I mean, maybe this is just 92 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: growing up. You feel like you're in this garden with 93 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: other people. You know, everybody's a little different, but you 94 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: can still connect and be interested in what makes other 95 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: people different. And then all of a sudden, you know, 96 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: you're eight, nine, ten, eleven, and these walls start to 97 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: go up and packs start to form. I remember the 98 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: packs that roamed my neighborhood on BMX bikes when I 99 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: was like six and seven, were like the Goonies, you know, 100 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: the bad News bears, Like everybody was a misfit, and 101 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: I think I experienced it as you know, a sudden 102 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: falling away of people, like drifting apart from friends, loneliness, 103 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: and then by middle school like getting in a lot 104 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,239 Speaker 1: of fights, just retreating into myself. 105 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 2: So when you say getting into a lot of fights, 106 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 2: was that in retrospect do you see that as kind 107 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 2: of like typical adolescent anger or was there something more 108 00:06:58,360 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 2: going on? 109 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: Well, this was the eighties and in the goonies phase 110 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: of rolling around the neighborhoods on bikes, like that's great, 111 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: you know, that's awesome. But by the time I got 112 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: to middle school, I was living through that kind of 113 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: like the high water mark of school integration and then 114 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: the backsliding on that. So the town had attempted to 115 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: deal with this kind of white flight thing that was 116 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: going on by putting eighteen hundred and sixth and seventh 117 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: graders together in a school and giving us three minutes 118 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: to cross the quarter mile wide campus from class to class, 119 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: And it led to a lot of bumping into people 120 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: in the hall and they want to beat your ass, 121 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: and there was no adult around, so you just, you know, 122 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: you just fought. You just fought your way out. You 123 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: had to fight to get people to respect you and 124 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: know they couldn't mess with you. And I just didn't 125 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: know any other way to do it. It was not 126 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: a good scene, And to be honest, I think I 127 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: was having my first taste to come mental health struggle, 128 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: although I think I hit that pretty well. But like, 129 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: you'd have had to have been crazy to not think 130 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: something was going on. So my mom was teaching at 131 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: a public high school. She left to get a job 132 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: at a private school, I think specifically so that I 133 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: could go there where the classes were smaller, the curriculum 134 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: was harder, and there were fewer people for me to 135 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: fight were That was seventh grade. 136 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: So there was a sense on your mom's part, or 137 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 2: maybe both of your parents' part, that there was something 138 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: going on that needed to be addressed or harnessed in 139 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 2: some way. 140 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then additionally, like my parents were about to 141 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: divorce that year, and I had a very close friend 142 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: who was dying. I just think this was their sort 143 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: of panacea move was I'm not sure which one the 144 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: idea originated with, but there was enough of a sense 145 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: that I needed help to move me. 146 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 4: So a bit of a perfect storm what was happening. 147 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: Even at the time, I remember kind of being like, 148 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: this is ridiculous. I remember being somewhat philosophical about it, 149 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: being like, this is how it works, Like sometimes things cluster, 150 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: A random distribution is not an even distribution, and I 151 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: was like, these things are clustering. But it was also 152 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: kind of like if one more thing decides to come 153 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: along and join this cluster, like I don't know if 154 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna survive. I started drinking toward the end of 155 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: eighth grade, and I started getting high ninth grade, and 156 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: I kind of graduated to well, I never you know, 157 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: I never graduated. It was just kind of like add 158 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: things to the lazy suason. I started taking pills at 159 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: the end of ninth grade and moving on from that 160 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: in tenth grade and feeling by February of eleventh grade 161 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: that I was like really sick. 162 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 4: Did anyone around you know it? 163 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: I mean the people I was getting high. 164 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 4: With, Yeah, how about the grown ups. 165 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: It's hard for me to believe that they didn't, but 166 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: apparently they didn't. And I've thought about that a lot. 167 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: And I was very very secretive in a way that 168 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: it's just really hard for me to think about. I 169 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: don't I don't like that side of myself. But I 170 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: was very good, I think, I mean, I felt then 171 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: that I was very good, and I think now as 172 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: a parent, like how can I have been that good? 173 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: But like it seems like perhaps I really was at 174 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: compartmentalizing and I had shoot, you know, I had choo 175 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: houses so I could play those off against each other. 176 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I say two houses. I had like a 177 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: million houses. My dad had so many houses, like we 178 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: moved so many times, it was crazy, you know, And 179 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: he was often not where he was supposed to be, 180 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: you know, like he would forget kinda that we were 181 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: coming over or that I was coming over and be out. 182 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: And my parents it was acrimonious enough that they weren't 183 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: you know, keeping in touch with you the other. So 184 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: I could tell one I was at the other's house, 185 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: and I had friends that we're going through the same experience. 186 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: So we had four six, you know, eight houses we 187 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 1: could say we were at. So there was a lot 188 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: of exploiting of that. I don't know, it's crazy to me. 189 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: Part of what is really striking to me. I mean, 190 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 2: you say you were really good at being secretive, but 191 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 2: it's hard to imagine how good could you have been 192 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 2: at it. You know, it sounds like the adults around 193 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 2: you were also really swept up in their own lives 194 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: and not paying the kind of parental attention or maybe 195 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: even not just parental attention, just you know, not just 196 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: your parents, but just It's so interesting the way you 197 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 2: were describing the eighties, because it sounds there have been 198 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: decades like this in modern times of the adults checking 199 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: out and then other times. I think the times that 200 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: we're living in now, where parents are much more checked in. 201 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: In fairness to them. As a parent. Now, I see 202 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: it's really hard to pick apart what's going on with 203 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: middle schoolers in particular. There's hormonal things, just developmental things. 204 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: You're like, you know, does my son look like a 205 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 1: zombie because these you know, like in withdrawal, or does 206 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: he look like a zombie because he's like, you know, 207 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: not being able to sleep because is you know, as 208 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: hormones are. There's a lot of things it could be. 209 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: And then additionally, like they're dealing with divorce, Like my 210 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: mom was working all the time, Like the money situation 211 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: was not good, my dad had a lot going on, 212 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: a lot of girlfriends, they keeping out for Riven, and 213 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: like I have like come to feel like they were 214 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: doing the best they could with what they had. And 215 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: then additionally, just one other thing is like I was grieving. 216 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: I was grieving my dead friend, and my family culture 217 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: was distinctly terrible at dealing with grief and pain, and 218 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: so it was like there was something about it that 219 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,119 Speaker 1: was so intense, you know, and here's me, the expressive 220 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: hand talker. There was just something about it that I 221 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: think was so hard to look at. And for a 222 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: long time, I think I thought it was ugly. I 223 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: think I thought they found it so ugly that they 224 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: couldn't look at it. And now I realize as a 225 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: parent that it was too painful for them to see 226 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,719 Speaker 1: their child in pain. And I was in a lot 227 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: of pain. 228 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 4: How old were you when your friend died? 229 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: Eighth grade? 230 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 2: We'll be right back to out high school, Garth tries 231 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 2: to numb his pain with huge amounts of drugs and alcohol, 232 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 2: and even though the adult around him don't seem to 233 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 2: be clocking it, he himself is alarmed, but he manages 234 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: to keep it all well hidden, not that anyone's really looking. 235 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: When he's seventeen and about to leave home, Garth comes 236 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 2: up with, as he calls it, the weirdly contrived notion 237 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 2: that if he just stops doing drugs and instead only 238 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: drinks a lot, that his pain will subside. In retrospect, 239 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: he would have been ripe for a twelve step recovery program, 240 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: but that would have meant he'd have to talk about it, 241 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 2: that he'd have to tell the truth. 242 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: When I'm, you know, seventeen, I really left to go 243 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: to DC. It's still a year ago in high school, 244 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: but I had exhausted what you know sort of was 245 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: there curricularly for me at my high school. So as 246 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: senior year, I think I took a few college classes 247 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: at the local college. I went to this one week 248 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: poetry camp one summer. It was the only like, you know, 249 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: summer thing I ever did that wasn't just getting a job, 250 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: because my mom was like starting to panic about like 251 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: what I was going to put in my college application, 252 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: and to myself, I was like, ah, I'm not going 253 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: to college. But I went to this poetry camp and 254 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: I fell in with this kid from DC who just 255 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: was like good energy. Like I was like, I don't know, 256 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: like I feel good when I'm around that guy. I 257 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: feel safe. And I started going up to DC on 258 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: weekends and the summers, you know, summer after senior year 259 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: of high school, I got a job up there. That 260 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: was really where I felm with this group of friends 261 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: who were people who were just like not in the darkness, 262 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: you know, they just weren't doing the stuff I've been doing. 263 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: And I felt like if I could become part of that, 264 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: then that would help me, like I would like insulate me. 265 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily know like who to connect with to 266 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: get dope up there. That's an interesting part of the whole, 267 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: like early adolescent thing like actually scoring can be challenging. 268 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: So anyway that was like I was ready. I gotta 269 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: do something different or I'm not going to make it. 270 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 4: You were ready. 271 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 2: And also, I mean, I'm always amazed by the way 272 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 2: that someone can come along. It can be a mentor, 273 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: it can be a teacher, it can be a friend, 274 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: it can be a relative, but someone can come along. 275 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: That's that's sort of like just outside of our accustomed 276 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: usual emotional experience and just blow it wide open. 277 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: You know, the story of Roomy and Chams of Tabriz, 278 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: No tell me Chams of Tabriz with Rumi's like muse 279 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: and mentor and friend and in some weird spiritual sense 280 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: of waste lover, and he like rides into Roomy's town. Rumy, 281 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: I think it is already at this point like a 282 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: good poet. But they just the way that the story goes, 283 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: it's like they look at each other's faces and they 284 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: just instantly are like you're for me, you know, you're 285 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: my people and everything Roomy writes after that, you know, 286 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: he's constantly talking about the friend, and the friend means God. 287 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: But the friend also means cham's you know, his friend, 288 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: and it's a mystery. It's like I think about it 289 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,479 Speaker 1: all the time, Like what happens in those moments when 290 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: you you know, whether it's someone that you end up marrying, 291 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: you know, you fall in love, or you fall in friendship, 292 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: or you fall in intellectual you know, fascination with It's like, 293 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,360 Speaker 1: it's such a mystery, what's happening there. But yeah, that's 294 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: that's the great avenue for change that I found, like 295 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: exists in the universe. Like I definitely, you know, wouldn't 296 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: have made it on that the moment when I was ready. 297 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: The first time I went to DC to visit this friend, 298 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: I had been really sick immediately beforehand, and I remember 299 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: talking to him and being like, I need to stop. 300 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: I had never said that to anyone before. Friendship has 301 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: been everything. I mean, it's just been everything to me. 302 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: And I should say around my friend in DC, we're 303 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: five six, seven other people who are my favorite people, 304 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: and we just got really, really close. It was a 305 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: culture that too, was a culture in the same way 306 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: that my family had been a culture. There was something 307 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: very healthy about it. 308 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 2: Sometimes a chance meeting can alter the entire trajectory of 309 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: a life and of other lives as well. In Garth's case, 310 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: the friend who he met in poetry camp, who is 311 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: a year older than Garth, is already at Washington University 312 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 2: in Saint Louis, so Garth applies, is accepted, and follows 313 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: him there. Seven weeks into college, when he's eighteen going 314 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 2: on nineteen, Garth meets the woman who will become his wife. 315 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: They marry in two thousand and four, when Garth is 316 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 2: twenty five, and one thing among many they agree upon 317 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 2: is that they don't want to have kids. Both of 318 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: them have divorced parents, and they don't want to replicate 319 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 2: the cycle. They moved to DC, where Garth's wife goes 320 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: to graduate school and Garth holnes his craft as a writer. 321 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 2: Then they moved to New York. Now it's two thousand 322 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: and seven and Garth and his wife are standing on 323 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 2: a Brooklyn Street corner waiting for the light to change, 324 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 2: and she says, let's have kids. 325 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: And know her well enough that it wasn't surprising, Like 326 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: I could feel her evolving. If I say something when 327 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: I'm eighteen, I feel like I must never recan't. And 328 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: she's much more She exists in the world and in 329 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 1: time were naturally than I do. And I was feeling 330 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: her like evolved at the point which I was like 331 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: surprised that she would have ever said. She didn't what 332 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: It's like we had a dog, you know, it's like 333 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,239 Speaker 1: you love caring for things, but she did. It was there. 334 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: There was no preamble. The herds me like, let's have well. 335 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: And the way you describe it, which I love, is 336 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: you know, by the time you had crossed the street, 337 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: in the amount of time that it took for the 338 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 2: two of you to cross the street, you were on board, 339 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: you know, and it was like, yeah, yeah, we're going 340 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 2: to do that. 341 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: And this case also I was like I don't want 342 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: to lose you, Like this is important to you. This 343 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: was important to my wife, you know, like I don't 344 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: want to lose her. And this has been really good 345 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: so far. And it's an adventure and like, however, crazy kid, 346 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: you know, having kids is I've been a crazy place. 347 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: That's the mystery that you were talking about, right, Like, 348 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: when you're not a parent, this isn't an experience exclusive 349 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: to parents. It comes in many forms. It's about friendship, 350 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: it's about any life change you just literally can't imagine 351 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: what it's going to be like like you think you can. 352 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: You can read novels about it, but there is a 353 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: true mystery, like something that you could not imagine existed 354 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: a minute ago suddenly is. And if that keeps happening 355 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: to you enough, you know and it's good for you, 356 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: you learn to just kind of go with it. 357 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 2: It was Gerta who once said, whatever you think you 358 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 2: can do, or believe you can do, begin it. Action 359 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 2: has magic, grace and power in it. When Garth and 360 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: his wife take action in starting a family, indeed they 361 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 2: find magic, grace and power. And while this wasn't part 362 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 2: of their plan at the onset, they end up having 363 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: not just one child, but four. Garth's whole world has changed. 364 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: He's a husband, a father, and he's stopped drinking. 365 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: The things that had magic, grace and power in them 366 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: had expanded to take up so much room that they 367 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: were like squeezing out the space for the things that 368 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: were bad for me. And it was like, why am 369 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: I doing this stuff that's bad for me? I know 370 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: it's bad. I mean I know I'm gonna feel bad later. 371 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: I know I'll feel good later if I do all 372 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: this other stuff, like, you know, why not bring the 373 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: same discipline to doing the stuff that makes me feel 374 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: good that I used to bring to doing the stuff 375 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: that makes me feel bad. And I still will have 376 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: a beer, but I'll you know, I'll stop it to 377 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: you because there's no such thing as a third beer 378 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: for me. It's like one two nine. You know. 379 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: One of the things that really struck me in your 380 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: piece is that you didn't really want to talk about it. 381 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 2: It just it was something that you were internally, you know, 382 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 2: grappling with and getting to a good place with. 383 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: And I was deeply, deeply ashamed, right and remain. 384 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 2: So kind of like your own private burden, I guess 385 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 2: I would say, I think I. 386 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: Didn't think of it as a burden, but as a 387 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: consequence or even like a penance, like you did the crime, 388 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: now do the time. 389 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 2: Will be back in a moment with more family secrets. 390 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 2: Garth's eldest son is entering into middle school age, a 391 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 2: fraught time for most when our world enters into a 392 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: front time as well the pandemic. Of course, people of 393 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: all ages are struggling during this time, but Garth notices 394 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 2: a particularly concerning shift in his son. 395 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: My son has always been a beautiful child. I mean physically, 396 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: although he is that to me too, but he just is. 397 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: It was a really and I can say this my 398 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: sample size is four, right, so I could compare him 399 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: to other babies who I've lived in my house, Like 400 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: he has a very He just is a smiler. He's 401 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: like a light, you know. He brings kind of this 402 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: a lightness into a room that is very compelling for 403 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: the people in it. And he's always been that way. 404 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: His favorite thing is a baby, was to look in 405 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: people's faces. Just think about that in the context of 406 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: like we're to go into this thing where people's faces 407 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: are going to be covered for two years. Like he's 408 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: just a connector. He just wants to connect and if 409 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: he can do that, he's like so happy and probably 410 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: out of personal cowardice. I also had, you know, managed 411 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 1: to get to you know, the border in middle school 412 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 1: with out thinking too hard about what's going to happen 413 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: when he's at a party and like someone offers him 414 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: a joint or some blow or what's that going to 415 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: look like. And I hadn't really thought about the fact 416 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: that I really struggled at that age and my father 417 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: really struggled, and some of that's probably genetic. There are 418 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: other people in my family who struggle when there are 419 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: other addicts in my family. And so in the pandemic experience, 420 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: when he got back into school after a year and 421 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: a half of computer school, which is you know, like 422 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: I could save my thoughts on for another podcast, he 423 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: was in sixth grade, and I just felt like a 424 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: light had gone out of him and he started to 425 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: be really angry. And I think now that a lot 426 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: of that is just middle school. Like I again with 427 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: the sample size, I can you know, I can see 428 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: my second son at the same age, and I'm like, 429 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: and it's so much easier for me now to be like, Okay, 430 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: that's developmental, Like that's blood sugar, that's something bad happened 431 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: at school today. But with my oldest I was just like, 432 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: what am I looking at? Like this is you know, 433 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: he just seemed so different. And I, you know, had 434 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: also been working on a book about addiction and about 435 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: fatherhood and childhood, and so I was kind of in 436 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 1: the midst of immersing myself in some of where I 437 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: had been, and I just got really worried. I was 438 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: just like, I don't know if I should be talking 439 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: to him about whether he's depressed, as someone certainly should 440 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: have been doing to me. But when I was that 441 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: age and you know, manifesting some of the same symptoms, Yeah, 442 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: I didn't think he was drinking or anything, but I 443 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: was like, what if that's where this gets? What if 444 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: that's what I'm looking at? Like whatever made me start? 445 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: What if that's rearing its head in him? I spent 446 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: a lot of time second guessing myself. I spent a 447 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: lot of time living through what perhaps my own parents 448 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: like what am I looking at? You know, And they 449 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: came to answers, I think. But I did a lot 450 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: of that kind of like private you know in my head, 451 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: like no, no, over reacting, this is about you. You're 452 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: making this about you, you know, Let it be about him. 453 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: But it was talking to my wife and getting her 454 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: sense also of like I'm worried. I feel like something's 455 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: happening to my child, and I just was like, Okay, 456 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: I've never really let myself think about having this talk 457 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: with my kid, and I don't know what it's supposed 458 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: to look like, but I just know it's just like 459 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: that I need to open the door and walk through 460 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,479 Speaker 1: it and start acting before it's too late, and the 461 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: rest will figure itself out. And I say that like 462 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: it sounds like, you know, this kind of like confidence, 463 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: but in fact it's like naked terror. But it is 464 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: someone who's like their whole everything that's good in their 465 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: life has come out of that process, that same set 466 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: of steps. You know you need to do this. It 467 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: seems impossible, you don't know how you're going to do it. 468 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: Just start, Just throw yourself off the cliff and trust 469 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: that that's what's supposed to happen. So I thought, let's 470 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: go into the woods. Let me take him somewhere where 471 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: we can't be seen. That will make it easier for me. 472 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: And I was like, I want to talk to him, 473 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 1: but I need to remember to listen to him. 474 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 4: In those woods. 475 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 2: On that walk, Garth takes a terrifying leap. 476 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: I was determined that I was not going to walk 477 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: out of those woods without telling him two things that 478 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: I owed him that And the first was that I 479 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: struggle with depression, which I needed my son to hear 480 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: that because I needed to not be hiding something from him. 481 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: He's a very sensitive for a very intuitive person, and 482 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: I think he in hindsight, I think that some of 483 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: what was bothering him was that I was going through 484 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: this intense experience of writing about all this stuff, and 485 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: it was like he felt that I had this secret 486 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: that was really wrestling with in my study every day, 487 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: but he didn't know what it was. And the other 488 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: thing is that I was a drug addict, and I 489 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: thought I wasn't gonna walk out of those words without 490 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: saying that. I knew that that was somehow going to 491 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: be where the conversation had to go. And I knew 492 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: that he needed to to know that because I knew 493 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: that he needed to be able to make informed choices 494 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: in his own life, and I knew that he needed 495 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: to have some things he could compare what was going 496 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: on with him with. So like, you know, at that age, 497 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: I didn't know what the hell was going on with me, 498 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? If my father had said, 499 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: look like I struggle with mental illness or you know, 500 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: in mood disorder or you know, something like that, I 501 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: might have been able at that age to be like, oh, 502 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: maybe that's what's going on with me. Let me is 503 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: that feel? 504 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? 505 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: That kind of does feel like what's going on with me? 506 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: Maybe I should you know, maybe I need help. But 507 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: as I said, I wanted to really listen to him. 508 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: I felt like what was more important was to make 509 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: a space for whatever was inside him to come off. 510 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: And it ended up being like less. He wasn't really 511 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: looking for chapter and verse from me. He was looking, 512 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: you know, to be able to talk about his experience 513 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: of you know, what's going on drug wise and drinking 514 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: wise among his friends, and what hows you feel about it. 515 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: I was kind of just drawing him out on those things. 516 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: You know, he seemed like you've been angry, and he 517 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: seemed like you've been that. What does that feel like? 518 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: He what is that about? And what's going on in school? 519 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: And then at some point I said something like the 520 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: reason I'm asking is, here's my experience at that age. 521 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: And you know, I said I I had a problem 522 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: with drugged and it started when I was your age. 523 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: And he was basically like, you know, just put his 524 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: arm around me, and I was like, I'm sorry that 525 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: Like it was really simple, like it wasn't like you know, 526 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: like cue the Angelic chorus. It was just like a 527 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,239 Speaker 1: very natural human like a good friend would do. And 528 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: then I think we kind of like moved right back 529 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: on to like his stuff, which is important, Like, which 530 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: is the point of what we were talking about. 531 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 2: How would you characterize what has felt different in the 532 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 2: time after that walk in the woods. 533 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: It sounds preposterous, it's a plausible for. 534 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 3: Me to say, but I just feel like it has 535 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 3: changed everything in our relationship. 536 00:31:59,560 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 2: You know. 537 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 3: It's like now gets solved all his problems. But it's 538 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 3: like the thing about keeping it inside just seemed to 539 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 3: go away. Like he like trusts me with stuff that 540 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 3: I never never would have trusted anyone with. He's a 541 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 3: trusting kid, and that's a very good quality. 542 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: But you know, he'll come to me with stuff important, 543 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: stuff that's going on with him just then just talk 544 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: to me about it, you know, not even like what 545 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: do you think, but just like I wanted you to know, 546 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: like this is what's going on. And I mean it's crazy, 547 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: like I you know, whenever that he walks out of 548 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: the room after those inductions, you know, I'm just like 549 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: I feel so honored, you know what I mean. Like 550 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: I'm like, I can't believe you would bring that to me. 551 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: And it's really important that I like respect that trust. 552 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: I feel like that really started then and and it 553 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: makes me, honestly, just makes me think like that it 554 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: was me. It makes me think I was doing something 555 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: I was so afraid. I was so afraid to be 556 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: found out or you know, to disappoint him or to 557 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: let him see that I've got problems, and that he 558 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: felt that and was kind of like I was alienating him. 559 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so it's so interesting because when you said 560 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 2: what you just said about him feeling like he didn't 561 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 2: have to keep things bottled up anymore. When you said it, 562 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: I thought you were, for a moment, talking about yourself. 563 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: And so I mean it seems like that in doing 564 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 2: that and in modeling that for him, and in showing 565 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: him that you're human and you know me, one of 566 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: the things I think that happens so often with our 567 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 2: parents is that they're not supposed to have histories, or 568 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 2: we think as parents that we're not supposed to have histories, 569 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 2: or certainly that we're not supposed to share anything that's 570 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 2: rough with our kids. 571 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: Like they'll model themselves on the worst parts of us. 572 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: Is the fear, you know. 573 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 2: When in fact it can really be the opposite, when 574 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: there's you know, sort of error led into the room of. 575 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: All that it's also it's very like recovery with people 576 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: who go through this experience tend to arrive at some 577 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: point at this sense that if there's something that you 578 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: need or there's something that you want, go give it 579 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: to someone else and then I'll come back to you. 580 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: I find like my son, you know, I feel like 581 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 1: my son's not trusting me, Like, wait a minute, go 582 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: trust him and trust him with something. It's wild. I 583 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: mean I knew that intellectually. It's wild, Like see how 584 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: much it can mean to someone you love so much 585 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: in action. 586 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 2: Here's Gars reading a brief final passage from his moving 587 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 2: essay in The Atlantic. 588 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: I was no longer sure which of us would the 589 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: other his life, or who had been changed by whom. 590 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 1: So little about fatherhood these days offered that kind of clarity, 591 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 1: much less promise any lasting resurrection. But that was okay. 592 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: I thought we didn't have to be miracles. As long 593 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: as we kept talking, we could simply be two guys. 594 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 2: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly's Acre is 595 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 2: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 596 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 2: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 597 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 2: please leave us a voicemail, and your story could appear 598 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 2: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 599 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 2: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 600 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at Danny Rider. And if you'd 601 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 2: like to know more about the story I'd inspired this podcast, 602 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 2: check out my memoir Inheritance. 603 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 604 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.