WEBVTT - Stalkerware ft. maia arson crimew 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:04.880 All Zone Media. 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:08.360 Welcome back to It Could Happen here, the podcast that's 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.520 happening here in your ear. And one of the things 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:16.320 that we love talking about here is a critical ingredient 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:22.040 towards creeping authoritarianism, towards growing corporate control and surveillance over 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.880 all of our lives, which is of course technology that 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.080 makes it even easier to monitor you than it already is. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.800 We're not talking primarily about like the government monitoring you, 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:35.040 because they can, you know, do stuff like just pull 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.880 your phone data from a you know what, which cell 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:40.640 towers is pinged. We're talking about the kind of stuff 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.640 that allows basically whoever can get an app on your 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.800 phone to track and stalk you. And Yeah, I'm going 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.200 to first introduce Mia Wong. Mia, welcome to the show 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:56.480 that you also host. Yes, I'm here. So what are 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:58.319 we what are we talking about today? And who are 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:02.720 we talking with? Yeah, so we are talking about stalker war, 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.280 which is the sort of broad name for the category 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.880 of software that Robert has been talking about. And we 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:12.760 are talking about someone who hacked well a stoker where 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:15.880 stalker Yeah, one. 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.120 Of the stockerware companies my Aris and Crime, the fame 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:22.520 hacker of the no fly list. Yeah, returning guests, always 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:23.319 happy to have you on. 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:29.240 Yeah, I always happy to be on. Yeah. 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:33.520 So I think I think, I don't know. I think 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.319 there's a real tendency among and I see this among 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:40.240 leftists a lot for kind of good reasons and kind 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:45.479 of not good reasons to really only focus on state 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:50.040 and like large corporate actors in terms of surveillance. And 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:51.360 that's a mistake. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:53.040 Yeah, totally. 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:56.760 Yeah, And so I guess I guess the place where 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:58.680 I want to start before we get into the specific 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:02.040 company that you do, is it still called owned? 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.320 I can't. It's fine to call it owned or pond 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:10.320 or whatever. I still do that. Sometimes people get confused. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.280 But yeah, yeah, But before we get into that, I 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.200 want to I want to ask you a bit because 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.280 you've done a lot of sort of I guess you 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:22.240 could call it research, both actual research wise and then 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.840 in terms of poking around their servers. 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.480 Research and journalism and whatever. Do you want to call it? 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:33.919 Yeah, hex, Yeah, So I wanted to just start off 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:35.919 by asking if you can give sort of like a 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:38.360 brief summary of what stalker ware is. 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.760 Yeah. So so, so stoker ware like as a category 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:45.880 encompasses like a number of different types of apps. Most 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:48.680 of them, like on the service, advertise themselves as like 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:52.840 parental control software, which is already bad enough. Just to 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.840 be clear that there's like advertised for like spying on 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.799 your children's phone, like seeing their location in real time, 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.799 seeing their such as that they receive any photo they take. 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.040 Ostensibly this is to prevent bullying and help with them 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.760 when they get depressed because they don't trust you and 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.520 talk to you for whatever reason. But obviously a lot 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.880 of these are then furthermore because that's like that, Sure, 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.760 that's a like target audience, that's a demographic you can 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:23.920 advertise too. But then there's this even bigger potential target 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:28.320 demographic of people who are insecure in their relationship, mostly men, 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.120 not only men, but who are then solved this idea 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.640 that they can use software like this for stalking their partner, 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.240 for finding out if they are cheating on you, things 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:39.880 like that, which is obviously an even bigger problem, which 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.680 once again not to discount the problems. That's spying on 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.680 your children. It's already like bad enough, but yeah, lead 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.960 this leads to this whole big industry of these apps 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:53.760 being used by partners against each other, like also just 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.400 by people, like against anyone in the in their surroundings 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:01.000 that they suspect might be doing something might be like 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.880 talking behind their backs. It often kind of turns into 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:07.960 like it obviously turns into this obsessive thing, especially if 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.920 you're solved this idea that this this app can magically 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.080 solve like interpersonal issues, like with anything that sells you 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:16.880 this magic idea of being able to solve any problem. 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.640 That these people start kind of spying on everyone in 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:23.880 their like circles to some of them, like not everyone, 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.000 most like a lot of people only spying like their 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.880 partner or like their child or whatever. But it often 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.320 like spirals out of control into this like controlling everyone 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:34.760 in their surroundings, knowing what everyone is up to where 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.599 they are, and spending like hundreds of dollars a month 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.880 on doing so. And yeah, that's pretty fucked up if 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:41.560 you ask me. 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.040 Yeah, yeah. One of the things that's interesting too. It's 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:47.520 also in a lot of cases illegal. This is going 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.599 to vary, you know, from country to country, in state 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.320 to state, but in the US there are states like California, 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.520 which gets pointed out in the very good Tech Crunch 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.880 investigation on truth spy, where there are really strict laws 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:00.800 that journalists like you have to by bias to win. 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.440 You can record someone that these these apps absolutely break. 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.400 Yes, it's specifically I think that doesn't. Most of these 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:09.960 app will have like disclaimerate upon that is like this 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.120 might be I legal and your jurisdiction, and please ask 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.920 for consent before doing this, and then they have lots 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.360 of tutorials on how to install this in someone's device 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.760 without their consent. Yeah, but it's like always like a 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.320 we do not take any like we we it's not 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.240 our fault if you break the law basically, which obviously, 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:29.960 like it's so far not a lot of this has 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.400 been challenged in court, but I don't think this would 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:36.760 hold up too long. But I don't think just saying 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:38.880 we make a product to do crimes with if you 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:40.919 do crimes of it, it's not I mean it works 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:42.000 for the gun industry. 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:46.440 So yeah. The difference is that like the with the 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.839 gun industry, it's a product where there is a legal 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.720 and an illegal, like clear way to do it. 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:54.320 The thing with stocker were as well is that like 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.440 a lot of them will also explicitly say the only 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:58.840 real use of this we allow you to do to 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.440 use it for is to surveill your child, which unfortunately 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.000 is legal in most jurisdictions because children are property of 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.400 their parents. Yeah quotes because I do not agree with that, but. 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.919 Yeah, it's one of those things where people using it, 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:15.760 like someone installing an app on their exes or their 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:20.520 their partner's phone or whatever without consent, could very easily 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.800 would lose any court case. Whether or not the company 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.080 would get in trouble. I think is going to rely 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:28.840 a lot on the stuff the videos they're posting about, 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:30.760 like how to put how to get these apps on 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.159 people's phones without them knowing, but like they do have 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.719 that out with like no, it's just for surveilling children, 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:36.120 which is. 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.799 Great, and for anyone else you need consent or whatever. 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:40.680 But I think it is important, yeah, to point us 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.520 out very early for anyone who's listening to this because 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.400 they think they might have stock over on their phones, 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:48.640 or because they know they have stock Averre on their phones, 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:52.440 you can use this in a domestic abuse case, well immediately, 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.440 this is explicit proof that abuse is happening, no matter 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.520 anything else, because like that's the thing generally with domestic 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:03.880 abuse case it's really hard to prove abuses happening. Stalkerware 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.200 and any other type of spying device like also physical 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:11.120 GPS trackers and stuff that is immediate proof that there 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.600 is a there's controlling behavior going on, that you are 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.840 being spined on. This it cannot only be used and 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:22.640 there's explicit, admissible evidence. This is also usually like makes 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.160 cases first like not for you like it just yeah, 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:30.679 it like can potentially add charges and make it more serious, 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.560 and that it can help making cops give a shit 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.960 about like abuse, which yeah, I hate that I need 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.440 to say that, but yeah, it's like it makes it 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.400 more serious because there's like spyware and whatever. 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.840 It's easy evidence first off, like you can prove they're 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.800 spying on you. And second, if you are in one 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.200 of the states where that violates the law, then you 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.160 can immediately say this person is breaking the law, like 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:54.480 this is we don't have to debate whether or not 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:56.200 they've they've crossed the line. 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.560 Yeah, And even if it doesn't directly break the law 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.520 to spy on someone on a partner like it, depending 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:04.480 on the on the on the region, it can be 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:07.400 kind of a hazy thing, especially if it's a device 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.200 you might co own if it's like a state where 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:12.640 you where with like code possession or whatever. In the US, 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:14.920 I do not know US law very much around this, 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.080 but yeah, there's like laws like that. But usually still 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.240 the fact that you're being spied on can be used 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.520 as proof for other abuse things you might be alleging, 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.520 because it's like hard proof that something is happening. And 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:30.520 also usually these companies will somewhat have to respond to 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:32.319 some point US, so they will have to give out 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.400 like who that account on there is behind like the 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:37.800 spying on your phone for some of them. We can 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.240 also there's also tools that help you find out who 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.439 is spying on you, or there's like someone with forensic 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:44.440 background can help. 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.480 Yeah, and I think people. One thing we should note 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.320 is that if you're kind of curious, has my device 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.080 been infected by some of these tools, one the one 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.880 that we've been talking about most truth spy. If you 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.200 go to that tech Crunch article. 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:01.600 Or to my art it also has a link yet. 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.080 Or to ye to your article on your website. There's 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.320 a tool you can use where you it'll tell you 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.760 how to get your IMSI I think I am I Yeah, 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:13.000 which you just dial a thing on your phone and 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.280 it gives you that number. It's basically how you identify 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.720 specific bones and you plug that in. It will let 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.640 you know if your device has been compromised. 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.599 Now like December last year up until there is the 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.800 data and if you yeah, it can pretty much tell 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:31.560 you if you've been spined on using this specific tool 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.160 until then. For other stuff, there's also guides usually on 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.760 TechCrunch and otherwise also on Stop Stockerwear dot ARC, which 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:41.120 is the US Coalition against Stalker War, and also just generally, 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:45.160 I think a lot of like more local anti stocking, 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.800 anti abuse works are not as informed yet as they 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.680 should be, but there's still a good point also to 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:52.520 reach out to or like. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.400 Yeah, yeah. One of my questions about truth Spy that 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:59.200 I'm hoping you can answer is I know that you 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:03.920 can like text messages get transferred via it, your call records, 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:06.319 all that kind of stuff, get and who you were calling. 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.840 Does that include messages for like encrypted apps like Signal 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:11.839 or is that not accessible through this? 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.880 It depends, Like for some of these, it will like 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.959 get signal messages, what's the messages and everything generally by 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.679 reading the notification contents, because like from notifications you know, 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:26.240 like what messages are have been like received. Sometimes it 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:28.320 will only then have the received messages and not the 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.080 set messages. Often these also include like a key logger 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:35.640 component that mapps messages then sent back as well. It 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:39.400 depends a lot what these apps collect, but for most 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.040 of them, also the collection for other texting apps is 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.040 usually kind of broken. None of these apps are really 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.760 well maintained. They're mostly just quick cash graps, yeah, are 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.240 there to maintain features usually don't really work. 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.960 And it seems like based on that, one thing people 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:57.120 can do outside of checking to see if their device 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:02.600 has been compromised, is do stuff like turn off notifications 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.679 for appslaing signal right, like, and that's that's actually just 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:10.640 generally good advice. Notifications are a compromise of the security 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.800 that signal offers. Don't have them enabled, you know, yeah, 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:15.440 or at the. 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.000 Very least disabled them on the lock screen on Android. Yeah, 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.000 I don't know how. I think that's also possible on iOS, 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.040 but I think I doesn't show message content on the 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.800 lock screen anyways. I'm not sure anymore. But yeah, it's 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:29.040 just also small things like that, And also like one 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.679 of the key tells that someone probably tampered with your phone, 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.400 especially for Android, is if Google play Protect is disabled 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.199 and you do not remember disabling it for something else, 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.600 it was almost definitely disabled because someone installed something on 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.040 your phone. Just try re enabling it. Then they will 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.600 probably tell you something. The thing also to keep in 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.360 mind if you find stockaware on your phone, please get 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.920 professional help. Do not just delete it. Do not like 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.480 necessarily confront whoever you think might be your abuser about 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.240 it unless you're very issue that that's the situation you 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:05.000 can handle, because like, yeah, that that there's one of 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.800 those things that like bringing it up or just deleting 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:12.080 it can very quickly lead to like yeah, yeah, complicating 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:13.200 the situation a lot. 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:15.680 You know what else complicates the situation. 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:17.840 These ads. 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:30.160 And we are back. 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.360 So when it comes to the actual fight against this stuff, 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:36.880 obviously what you're doing is a big part of it. 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:41.400 Getting inside these companies and finding out like what they're 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.800 doing and their capabilities is huge for in terms of 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.520 like what regular people are people who are interested in 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.880 becoming activists about this can do. What does the what 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.720 is the struggle to actually fight this stuff look like? 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.120 Like how do we how do we put a bullet 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:57.520 in this industry's head. 0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.560 I think one of the biggest things. And also like 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:01.640 why I do the worker do with like hacking it 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.080 with encouraging others to like send me data, be that 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.320 insiders from these companies sending it either to me or 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.640 like tech Crunch specifically currently because like me and tech 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.880 crunch are like the only people really doing like journalism 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.920 on this like regularly. And the important thing with like 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.560 journalism and all of this is like awareness. It's very 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:22.800 important to create awareness about this. That's also why I 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.079 do the media work with like being on this podcast 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.080 and things like that. I think the most important thing 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.160 is to make people aware, like talk about this in 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:35.040 your feminist circles or whatever, things like that especially bring 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.840 it up just also in like general info things about 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.360 abuse or how to detect abuse. I think the most 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:44.400 important thing to do against stocker whereas demestify it, because 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:46.480 most people don't even know that this is a thing, 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.880 that this is, like that there's just commercially available spyware 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.160 anyone can install on your phone. It's as important to 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.520 not like give in to some sort of paranoia as 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.760 with any of these things. It's just important to like, yeah, 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:03.760 generate awareness about it. And like spread these articles, let 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:08.440 friends know that this is a potential thing, and then yeah, 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:11.199 the hard thing with this is that, like obviously it 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.000 should will probably help if there was some sort of 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.800 legislation against some of this, it's going to be very 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:21.200 hard to get any proper legislation that ends this industry 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.040 because in most Western countries, which are the only countries 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.000 which unfortunately they would have enough power to like actually 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.360 get these apps shut down, because that's the world we 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.040 live in. But the problem there is usually that like 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.480 this notion that children are owned by their parents is 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.680 too strong to really make a full case against these apps. 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.360 And at the very best what I can, like the 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:47.040 very best time kind of hoping for from from legislators 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.280 is just a ban on advertising these apps on use 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.320 against other adults, which would be big already, but that 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.400 doesn't really solve the issue because there's still going to 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:58.960 be enough people who know of their use for use 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:01.080 against adults, and the there's going to be enough people 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.720 on like Creddit threads talking about, hey, well yeah, you 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.560 oh you're not sure if your government is cheating on you, look, 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.080 you can just use this app, you know. That's also 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.240 how most of this marketing for this works. It's just yeah, 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.280 at the end of the day, this is like a 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:19.960 patriarchal issue. So yeah, I think that's also why, like 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.760 I am so focused on like the hacking and the 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.160 like blowing these companies up and showing like who's behind them. 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.200 It's because at the end of the day, the most 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.320 effective thing we have against these companies is like the 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.120 grassroots movement of making them too scared to run in 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.360 this business, making it not profitable enough, because as I said, 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.240 most of this is like quick cash grabs from like 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:45.480 web design studios and outsourcing companies. Yeah that a're just 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.200 making a quick buck from this because otherwise they don't 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.520 get paid enough. Like that's the sad thing really is 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.840 how much of this industry is in all of these countries. 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.960 Western companies outsource their IT too, because there's lots of 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.280 IT companies there and they are entirely reliant on like 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:06.200 Western companies giving them very underpaid tasks. And Yeah, this 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.760 problem that you now have a bunch of employees and 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.200 not enough money to always pay them. And what do 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.440 you do, You like find some weird niche of like 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.760 a tech product you can quickly build. Yeah, and this 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.200 is like one of those easy niches. It's like always 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:23.600 the scummy stuff and like yeah, it's that's also why 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:25.600 like so many of these companies are like based out 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.680 of Vietnam, out of Iran and whatever. It's just companies 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.960 that already have it hard enough to do business globally, 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:36.840 where the IT industry is like falling apart because there's 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:40.760 not enough like local customers and anything that's international. You're 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:44.280 just the cheap workforce, right, So yeah, it's it's once 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.240 again also like a class problem. I don't like most 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:49.920 people working in this industry know that they're working in 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:51.440 a like scummy industry. 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.480 Yeah of course, but like yeah, you got to get 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:55.560 paid and that's. 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.280 Yeah, And that's like why I think making it more 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.120 scary to operate in this industry is like, yes, the 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:03.960 wait to go because like with just like these like 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.359 four hacks that have happened against these companies over the 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.760 last like half a year or so, two of them, 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.520 three of them, three of them have shut down completely. 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:18.160 Others seem to be slowly moving towards just building other 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:23.879 software primarily. Yeah, it's just like, yeah, it's like with 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.520 any other like shady industry that the best we can 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.360 do is just do not make it profitable to run 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:33.159 the software, because at the very best, anything else we 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.600 will get it's just pushing them more into the shadows, 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:37.600 which is not going to solve the issue at all. 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.840 Yeah. I think a lot about like strategic thinking, which 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.040 I do believe is kind of often in part because 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.440 of how rightfully negative most people on the left think 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:52.119 about the military. There's a tendency to ignore some of 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.480 like the theory around how to actually win a conflict 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:59.480 and all of it all all strategy really, when you're 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.360 talking about like defeating an opponent revolves around denying and 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.919 taking operational area from them, right Yeah, And that's what 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:08.560 you're talking about when you talk about, well we need 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:10.359 to stop this. You know, one of the first things 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.439 we can do as part of fighting this is to 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.640 stop them from being able to advertise certain places. Right 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.200 It's making sure that they're not able to operate without 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.480 being seen. It's basically cutting down their area, their space 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.200 to maneuver, their ability to profit, which cuts down their money, 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:31.200 their access to people, their ability to actually operate. 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:31.520 Right. 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.959 Like, that's what we're looking at in terms of how 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.160 do you kill this stuff. It's not one single Really, 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.800 I use the comparison of like a bullet, but it's 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.439 never going to be one bullet. These things are too durable. 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.159 There's too many countries in play to do that. 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.800 Yeah, that's also why I put so much emphasis on 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:49.639 doing media work about this and getting more people to 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:53.040 talk about this and getting more awareness of this out there, 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:55.200 to the point where I'm willing to work with more 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.679 conservative newspapers on this because everyone needs to know about this. 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:00.520 At the end of the day. This is how we 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.840 like stop people from falling victims to this. Most people 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.800 who are a victim of stocker apps have never heard 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.080 of stocker apps before, and I think that's like one 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:11.960 of the biggest ways to tackle this. And on the 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.960 other hand, we also have I think another big leverage 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.399 point with how many of these are getting hacked because 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.120 none of these apps are very secure. That's another thing 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:24.159 is this can also be leveraged against like the abusers 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.640 in this scenario. I think just pointing out to them 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.040 that all of these apps get hacked all the time 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:31.040 and that this is how they get found out, that 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.080 that this is how their data of them as abusers 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.960 ends up landing on the internet. I think It's also 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.480 like a very important angle at the end of the day, 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:41.679 is just to make it clear like yeah, no, not 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:46.359 even you are like secure from this having consequences for 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.360 your life, like beyond like direct interpersonal or legal consequences. 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:54.119 This can and in the past has result in like 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.440 your email adders being on a list of people who 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.760 have do abuse to people online. You don't want to 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.400 be on such a list. I think that's also important 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:06.080 just to like point out there isn't one stockover app 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:08.240 that's not eventually going to get hacked. There is a 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.119 big war against these apps. They're all like there's so 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.280 many different hacking groups that keep sending me data from 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.720 these like I'm already working on another article that already 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.080 once again affects like the data of like I think 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.800 like eighty thousand more like abusers, and it's just the 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.159 abuser data this time. But I'm still going to report 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.159 on it like it's it's it's this is not going 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:33.120 to stop. It's even also not going to stop when 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.040 I stop reporting on this myself, like I've there's been 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:39.760 work before me down on this. I also the first 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.360 time I got involved in finding stock over was back 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.600