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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust me? Would I ever lead you?

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Speaker 1: Wish your trust? This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 2: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 2: welcome to trust me. The podcast about colts, extreme belief

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Speaker 2: and manipulation from two future brides who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth. Today

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Speaker 2: our guest is Aqina Cox, artist and writer who grew

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Speaker 2: up in the Unification Church also known as the Mooney's.

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Speaker 2: In Part one today, we'll talk to her about the

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Speaker 2: background on the church and leader Reverend Moon, how her

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Speaker 2: parents both joined by getting rides from members in the

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Speaker 2: seventies and getting a subsequent invitation to dinner, and what

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Speaker 2: it was like being a member of this group growing up.

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Speaker 3: She'll tell us about the mass wedding ceremony that she

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Speaker 3: participated in, how her family moved to the border of

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Speaker 3: North and South Korea, the lavish lifestyle the Reverend Moon

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Speaker 3: was living while its members were often working long hours

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Speaker 3: without pay, and how she began to question the church

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Speaker 3: when she went to college.

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Speaker 2: And next week, in part two, we will talk more

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Speaker 2: about our current political landscape and the Salon article she

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Speaker 2: wrote about the parallels she sees between her upbringing and

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Speaker 2: a cult and the Trump administration's ice crackdowns.

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Speaker 1: Before we get to our guests, we do have a

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Speaker 1: big announcement. What is it, Lola?

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Speaker 2: Well, Megan, I think you already know this, but for

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Speaker 2: our listeners, we have transitioned to a new home and

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Speaker 2: we are now at.

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Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media. So exciting.

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Speaker 2: This has been our dream network for so long. We

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Speaker 2: are so excited to make this move and so happy

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Speaker 2: to be back with y'all listening to us.

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Speaker 3: Lola, do you know how we got on Exactly Right Media?

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Speaker 3: Tell me, Meghan, I put exactly Ray on.

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Speaker 1: My vision board. So here we are, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's magical thinking.

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Speaker 3: And I think you're wrong, and that's what we do

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Speaker 3: a lot on those podcasts.

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Speaker 1: We think each other are wrong.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, which is maybe a good transition to explain to

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Speaker 2: y'all who we are. I am Lolablanc Residence scip and

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Speaker 2: I am somebody who believed in a cult leader myself

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Speaker 2: as a child. I was originally a mainstream regular Mormon,

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Speaker 2: and then a man swooped in and manipulated my mother,

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Speaker 2: and then I believed that he was a prophet of God.

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Speaker 2: And it was a scam. It was a very harrowing

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Speaker 2: experience for my mother. He did prey upon her LDS beliefs,

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Speaker 2: and he has continued to do that with other people

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Speaker 2: until we got out of it, and ever since that experience,

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Speaker 2: which you can listen to the full story of on

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Speaker 2: episode one of his podcasts. My mom was our very

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Speaker 2: first guest, but ever since then, I have been extremely

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Speaker 2: interested in how people's beliefs get preyed upon by manipulators,

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Speaker 2: and how we are all influenced to believe crazy things,

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Speaker 2: and how it happens to people who are incredibly intelligent

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Speaker 2: and wise and thoughtful and curious, because so many of

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Speaker 2: our guests really are like that. So I decided that

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Speaker 2: I wanted to create a podcast that centered the survivors

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Speaker 2: and centered the human experience of it, and didn't make

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Speaker 2: it this like scary thing, but like really showed people

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Speaker 2: what it's like to have that experience. And I was

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Speaker 2: looking for somebody who could share that with me, and

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Speaker 2: I fortunately was introduced to Megan by a mutual friend

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Speaker 2: and I got to hear a little bit about her story,

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Speaker 2: which she can tell you about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the beginning of this podcast is really interesting.

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Speaker 3: I was sitting with our mutual friend who was very

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Speaker 3: we're very good friends with him, but we'd never met before, Like,

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Speaker 3: for example, year, we're both going to his birthday tonight.

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Speaker 1: How did we never meet? It so weird.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, I was sitting with him and he got a

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Speaker 3: text and he was like, Oh my god. My friend

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Speaker 3: just asked if I know any therapists who grew up

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Speaker 3: in a cult. And I was a therapist at the

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Speaker 3: time who grew up in a cult, and I grew

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Speaker 3: up in the two by twos. It's really exploding into

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Speaker 3: the news right now because it's somehow been kept a

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Speaker 3: secret for more than one hundred years. But some people

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Speaker 3: call it the Truth, the Way, the Worker religion, Kuniyites,

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Speaker 3: whatever you might call it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I've never heard that one. Yeah, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: to it.

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Speaker 3: We actually have an interview with two x two by

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Speaker 3: twos Carrie and Kyle Hanks that you can go listen to.

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Speaker 3: So I'm fourth generation on both sides of my family.

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Speaker 3: My parents met through.

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Speaker 1: It and.

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Speaker 3: Very odd growing up experience because it's kind of like

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Speaker 3: being amish, but you have to live in the normal

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Speaker 3: world and go to normal school, but you just have

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Speaker 3: to kind of look weird, Like you have to be

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Speaker 3: weird enough in the world, but people are like, there's

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Speaker 3: something special about you, is it?

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Speaker 1: Jesus?

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Speaker 3: So No television, long skirts, long hair really.

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Speaker 1: Scared a hell lots of religious trauma.

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Speaker 3: And this podcast has been such a gift because I

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Speaker 3: just keep getting to deconstruct with every episode that we do.

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Speaker 2: It's so amazing to be able to hear our guest

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Speaker 2: stories and connect with them and be able to joke

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Speaker 2: about our experiences, because that's very important. It can't just

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Speaker 2: be we can't just live in the darkness, although sometimes

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Speaker 2: a little darkness is necessary.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes a lot of darkness, sometimes a little darkness,

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Speaker 1: But I.

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Speaker 3: Think we always come back to being very life affirming

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Speaker 3: and hopeful and kind of the opposite of what cults

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Speaker 3: teach us to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're all about that post dramatic growth, baby silly

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Speaker 2: and Yeah. So for the next segment that we do

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Speaker 2: on this show, the Cultiest Thing of the Week, I

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Speaker 2: ask Megan what the most cult like thing that she

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Speaker 2: experienced that week is. So, Megan, I would love to

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Speaker 2: know what your cultiest thing of the week is.

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Speaker 3: Well, my cultiest thing was actually something that I read

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Speaker 3: about in one of Aquina's articles, which is this woman

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Speaker 3: known as the Maga Grammy. You've heard of her, of course.

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Speaker 3: Her name is Kamala hemp Hill. And she went and

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Speaker 3: rioted on January sixth, and Trump pardoned her, and she

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Speaker 3: said no to his pardon. She said that she was

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Speaker 3: being led by something that was not her critical mind,

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Speaker 3: and that she wants to serve her time and not

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Speaker 3: be pardoned. I mean, she did serve her time, but

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Speaker 3: she still, you know, doesn't want the pardon.

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Speaker 2: That is so interesting and I want to have her

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Speaker 2: on so badly. I know me too, I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'd be so curious to know. I mean, and I

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Speaker 2: did read a little bit about that when she first

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Speaker 2: spoke out about that. I'd be so curious to know

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Speaker 2: more about, just like what was going on for her

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Speaker 2: when that happened.

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Speaker 1: How she thinks.

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Speaker 2: About everybody else who's gotten the party, you know, like

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Speaker 2: there's just so much there I want to know more about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: One of the interesting things she said that makes it

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Speaker 3: my cultiest thing of the week was that what got

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Speaker 3: her out of her group think was that she started

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Speaker 3: engaging with people on x that had different thoughts than

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Speaker 3: her and they were like just being kind of conversational

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Speaker 3: and not accusatory, and she had you know, interesting good

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Speaker 3: faith dialogues.

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Speaker 2: So that's actually also how Megan phelps Roper I believe,

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Speaker 2: who was a member of the Westboro Baptist Church. That's

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Speaker 2: also how she began to question and eventually leave that

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Speaker 2: horrible family. Yeah, I mean, yeah, she was his daughter,

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Speaker 2: So yeah, great story. She was also just engaging with

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Speaker 2: people who were having good faith conversations with her. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: not to say that always happens, no, but it is

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Speaker 2: really interesting and gives me hope when it does happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think next week's episode, when we talk

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Speaker 3: to her more, she kind of calls.

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Speaker 1: Back to stuff like this.

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Speaker 2: So during it out this week, what about you, what's

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Speaker 2: your cultiest thing in the week. Well, this is another

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Speaker 2: thing we will actually talk more about next week. But

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Speaker 2: I feel I would be remiss in our first proper

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Speaker 2: episode back if I didn't address our current political landscape.

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Speaker 1: Of course. So okay, we.

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Speaker 2: All know that Trump blames immigrants for all things in

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Speaker 2: the world, and you know, generally anyone on the left

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Speaker 2: and trans people, he uses fear mongering language about them.

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Speaker 1: And now there have been.

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Speaker 2: These horrific ICE crackdowns in which people are getting deported

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Speaker 2: on mass at higher rates than ever before. And I

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Speaker 2: will say, like Democrats were also engaging in too many

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Speaker 2: ICE deportations, but this is now happening at a new

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Speaker 2: level where people are being targeted simply for being brown,

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Speaker 2: and people who have the quote wrong perspective or think

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Speaker 2: differently from what Trump wants are also being targeted. These

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Speaker 2: are all extremely culty things that are happening when you

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Speaker 2: are demonizing a group of people and trying to eliminate

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Speaker 2: anybody who is critiquing you. He has used language like

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Speaker 2: wanting to deport the worst, has used all this really yeah,

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Speaker 2: like fear mongering language. And I just want to shout

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Speaker 2: out some statistics here because seventy two percent of the

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Speaker 2: people that have been recently detained by ICE have no

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Speaker 2: criminal convictions.

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Speaker 1: Using their own.

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Speaker 2: Scale that rates the threat of each detainee, eighty four

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Speaker 2: percent of people detained by ICE were deemed to be

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Speaker 2: level one, which is no threat. Of course, if somebody

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Speaker 2: is committing a violent crime, sure, but that's not what's

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Speaker 2: happening here. And I will mention this next week as well.

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Speaker 2: But the idea that immigrants are somehow more criminal than

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Speaker 2: other people is false, and it's actually the opposite, because

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Speaker 2: data consistently shows that undocumented immigrants commit less crimes than

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Speaker 2: people who were born here. A National Institute of Justice

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Speaker 2: study examining data from the Texas Department of Public Safety

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Speaker 2: found that undocumented immigrants are arrested at less than half

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Speaker 2: the rates of US born citizens for violent crimes and

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Speaker 2: to quarter the rate of US born citizens for property crimes.

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Speaker 2: Another report found that immigrants have consistently had lower incarceration

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Speaker 2: than people that were born here for the last one

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty years.

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Speaker 1: This has been true.

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Speaker 2: And meanwhile, the daily average of people being processed into

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Speaker 2: the system has doubled since the beginning of this year

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Speaker 2: because of an arbitrary quota coming from Trump, who wants

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Speaker 2: to enact the biggest mass deportations in history. And now,

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Speaker 2: of course, with this big, stupid fucking bill, we've expanded

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Speaker 2: ICE funding to unprecedentedly high levels, and it is very

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Speaker 2: it's very alarming. I like, I would just would encourage folks,

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Speaker 2: And I know that if anyone listening as a Trump supporter,

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Speaker 2: I probably probably already lost the but I would say, like,

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Speaker 2: what I've been trying to do more of is look

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Speaker 2: at some of what he writes and examine the language

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Speaker 2: and the purpose of that language. He did this like

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Speaker 2: crazy Memorial Day post that's just using like rapist, criminals,

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Speaker 2: evil murderers, the horrible, you know, like, look at the

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Speaker 2: language and what the goal of that language is and

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Speaker 2: then what is the result that's actually happening. Because what's

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Speaker 2: happening right now is just that, like people who are

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Speaker 2: working in farms and paying taxes are being sent away

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Speaker 2: for no reason. Right that is not the America that

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Speaker 2: I want to live in.

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Speaker 3: Well, as she says, some clueless doesn't say RSVP on

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Speaker 3: the Statue of Liberty.

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Speaker 2: That is the correct way to end that comman to

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Speaker 2: end my brand. Yeah, I have no good conclusion.

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Speaker 1: That's the truth. I have no good conclusion. It's very scary.

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Speaker 2: I hope that we all can work together to combat this.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: I think Akina gives us a lot of good perspective

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Speaker 3: on how she grew up and what we can do

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Speaker 3: moving forward. So please listen to this week's episode, enjoy it,

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Speaker 3: and listen to next week's as well, because she gives

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Speaker 3: some really great ideas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we will talk more next week about how to

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Speaker 2: sort of manage our emotional state and also feel like

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Speaker 2: we're contributing something.

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Speaker 1: But for now, let's dig in.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk to Aquina about her childhood and the Unification Church. Welcome,

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Speaker 2: Aqina Cox to trust me. Thanks for being here in

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Speaker 2: the studio with us today.

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Speaker 4: Yes, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So we have you here with us today because

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Speaker 2: you wrote an incredible article for Salon right about how

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Speaker 2: you are seeing parallels between your childhood and occult and

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Speaker 2: our current administration and some of the behaviors with ice.

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Speaker 2: Let's just start out talking about how you grew up,

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Speaker 2: because we have not done an episode on the Unification

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Speaker 2: Church aka the movies since Steve Hassen, which years ago

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Speaker 2: at this point. So tell us how did your parents

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Speaker 2: end up in the Unification Church.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So I'm a second generation member of the Unification Church,

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Speaker 4: or I was before I left, which means that my

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Speaker 4: parents joined, which is the situation for like a lot

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Speaker 4: of people my age who grew up in the church.

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Speaker 4: A lot of our parents joined in the seventies or

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Speaker 4: late sixties, and then we were born a lot of

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Speaker 4: us in the eighties. Because Reverend Moon, who was the

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Speaker 4: leader of the Unification Church. He did a lot of

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Speaker 4: arranged mass weddings. Both my parents were hippies and they

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Speaker 4: were born in the mid fifties, so my dad barely

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Speaker 4: escaped getting drafted into Vietnam, and he was just hitchhiking

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Speaker 4: across the country and he met someone who was chatting

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Speaker 4: with him and told him about world peace and you know,

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Speaker 4: all these great things they could do together. And then

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Speaker 4: he went to get some free dinner with this guy

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Speaker 4: and then ye, yeah, then went to that second location.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what a like quintessential. What year was that? Do

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Speaker 1: you know it was?

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Speaker 4: I'm guessing like seventy three?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean when people were hitchhiking, a guy picks

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Speaker 2: you up hitchhiking, tells you about world peace and feeds you, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and feeds you.

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Speaker 4: And you eat the food they give you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, do you know, like what was going on

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Speaker 2: for him at that time was that something he was

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Speaker 2: really like searching for was a message of peace.

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Speaker 4: Honestly, I feel like his story is kind of emblematic

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Speaker 4: of a larger story of like a bunch of kids

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Speaker 4: who grew up right after World War Two, like my grandparents,

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Speaker 4: my granddads on both sides, were in World War Two,

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Speaker 4: and you know, they came home and didn't really want

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Speaker 4: to talk about it, and there was pressure to be perfect.

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Speaker 4: And then all of a sudden, they're supposed to go

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Speaker 4: off and fight in this Vietnam War, which sounded crazy,

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Speaker 4: and I think there was they felt like they couldn't

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Speaker 4: trust the dominant culture, Like they don't want to trust

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Speaker 4: this government that's sending them off to war to die.

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Speaker 4: So then they're like more open for these other groups

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Speaker 4: coming along, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it makes so much sense, and it

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Speaker 2: makes me think about how this is such We're in

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Speaker 2: such a cool era again right now because there's such

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Speaker 2: that like resistance to the establishment is very prevalent right now,

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Speaker 2: understandably because the establishment isn't doing terrible things on so

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Speaker 2: many levels. But yeah, I mean we'll get into that later.

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Speaker 2: But like, just hearing you say that, I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's now.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 4: I feel like when I first left the church and

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Speaker 4: I would talk about my experiences with other people, there

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Speaker 4: was this attitude of like, oh my gosh, that was

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Speaker 4: so like an exotic time, you know, and you just

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Speaker 4: kind of see it through the lens of a film camera.

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Speaker 4: You know, like hippies in La wearing flowy dresses and

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Speaker 4: talking about world peace and you know, eating vegan food

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Speaker 4: or whatever. And it felt like such a time that

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Speaker 4: was inaccessible, but it now feels like it's come back again.

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Speaker 1: Where Yeah I do? I feel like, what about your mom?

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Speaker 1: How did she get.

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Speaker 4: So she joined in a similar way. Okay, so she

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Speaker 4: I don't think it's been formally diagnosed with anything, but

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Speaker 4: she sees spirits.

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Speaker 1: She's using air quotes. Yes, So.

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Speaker 4: My theory is that she was off to college. I

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Speaker 4: think she was starting to have some like mental health issues.

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Speaker 4: She came home to Berkeley, California. She didn't really want

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Speaker 4: to talk about it with her family. Understandably, I'm sure

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Speaker 4: she was like not sure how to explain it, Like

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Speaker 4: seventies mental health treatments were not that great. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 4: So then she was like doing homework at the local library,

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Speaker 4: met some guys who wanted to give her a ride home, and.

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Speaker 1: She told a lot of rhymes.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and they invited her to come by their house

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Speaker 4: for dinner.

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Speaker 1: And then yeah, I'm the.

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Speaker 3: Kind of the perfect couple. They love rides and dinner.

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Speaker 4: Just suddy because they're like not great cooks, better food lucky.

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Speaker 1: I really I cannot cook and I do not cook.

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Speaker 1: And if someone was like, I will give you food,

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Speaker 1: I always say yes. So that must have been a

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Speaker 1: common tactic to look for people who need rides.

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Speaker 4: It was a common tactic. I heard that they often,

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Speaker 4: like recruiters would look for people with wearing backpacks because

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Speaker 4: it meant you were like going somewhere or in school

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Speaker 4: or in some period of transition. And I mean they

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Speaker 4: tried this like all day every day, So I'm sure

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Speaker 4: they talked to like one hundred people that day, right,

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Speaker 4: And my mom is the one that fell for it.

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Speaker 2: Wow, and before you were born, presumably was one the

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Speaker 2: mass wedding.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So they were supposed to back in the day work

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Speaker 4: for the church for many years before you have the

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Speaker 4: option of getting married. It was something like three or

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Speaker 4: seven years. One of those where you're supposed to like

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Speaker 4: essentially work for free, and you're like volunteering twenty for

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Speaker 4: seven living out of a van, either going from like

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Speaker 4: city to city fundraising, selling little choch keys and trinkets

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Speaker 4: and saying it's you know, for your world peace or

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Speaker 4: for your youth group or whatever or they were living

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Speaker 4: out of these church centers and just recruiting people from

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Speaker 4: the nearby city. And so they did that for several years,

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Speaker 4: and then they got married in the famous Madison Square

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Speaker 4: Garden blessing what we call a blessing, it's a mass

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Speaker 4: wedding ceremony. I think that was nineteen eighty two. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it blows my mind how big it was. Can you

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Speaker 4: tell how big their blessing was? Several thousand couples, I

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Speaker 4: want to say, three thousand or three thousand people.

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Speaker 1: That's so crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, can you just like, for those not familiar with

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Speaker 2: the Unification Church, also known as the Moones, they apparently

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Speaker 2: say now that saying the Moonees is a derogatory No.

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Speaker 4: I've heard they sometimes go or they used to go

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Speaker 4: after people for saying that, like it's a slur or something.

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Speaker 4: But you can call it whatever you.

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Speaker 2: Want to me, right, I mean it was this group.

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Speaker 2: Paint a picture for those guys who don't know.

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Speaker 4: Yes, So the Unification Church was started by Reverend Moon

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Speaker 4: Reverend Sun Young Moon in I want to say the

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Speaker 4: nineteen fifties in Korea. So after World War two there

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Speaker 4: was the Korean War. I think it started around nineteen

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Speaker 4: fifty and he grew up in North Korea. He escaped

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Speaker 4: by essentially walking down to the end of South Korea

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Speaker 4: because you know, it's kind of like this very long peninsula.

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Speaker 1: So we have an exciting origin story from this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Wow, And I want to say, there's like a million

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Speaker 4: asterisks I'm laying in here because a lot of what

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Speaker 4: he said was obviously not true, right right, right, Like

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Speaker 4: I heard this story that he like crossed the Han River,

378
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 4: which is or no, maybe it's the Engine River. Anyway,

379
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Speaker 4: he crossed this river with a man on his back

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Speaker 4: that he carefully carried him down because this man wasn't

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Speaker 4: able to walk. And there's like a picture of it,

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Speaker 4: like in a bunch of church centers, because that was

383
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Speaker 4: not the same guy, like not Reverend Moon in that picture,

384
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Speaker 4: Like it's like someone else.

385
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Speaker 1: But I'm just relying on white people's racism.

386
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Speaker 4: Well it was like is a very blurry like black

387
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Speaker 4: and white picture from the ninety Well so yeah, so

388
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Speaker 4: like everything is wrong. Yeah, but from his perspective, From

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Speaker 4: his perspective, he went to the South Korea, he started preaching.

390
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Speaker 4: There were a bunch of random cults in that area

391
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Speaker 4: because my area is again when like there's crazy upheaval,

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Speaker 4: then there's more room for these cults to come about,

393
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Speaker 4: and so there were a bunch of other ones. He

394
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Speaker 4: seems to have gotten some ideas from some cults. He

395
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Speaker 4: starts to get popular. He's getting in trouble with the

396
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Speaker 4: law because he says he's anti communist. Maybe the problem

397
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 4: was big and me so anyway, but he is getting

398
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Speaker 4: bigger and bigger. He moves to the States in nineteen

399
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Speaker 4: seventy one and starts like going on these big speaking

400
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Speaker 4: tours and getting lots of people to come, and kids

401
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 4: just start dropping out of high school joining. It kind

402
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Speaker 4: of started a moral panic, and we have people like

403
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Speaker 4: Depprogrammers who started kidnapping people who are in the cult

404
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 4: because they're you know, their parents were just like where

405
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Speaker 4: did these guys go?

406
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Speaker 3: That was one of the most interesting things about your

407
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Speaker 3: story to me was that the Deprogrammers for your parents

408
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Speaker 3: became kind of a repeatable story of like we escaped

409
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Speaker 3: to the deprogrammers. Can you say a little bit more

410
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Speaker 3: about that? Okay, So I.

411
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Speaker 4: Grew up with these stories of my mom trying to

412
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Speaker 4: smooth things over with her family, being like it's fine,

413
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Speaker 4: I'm in this group, don't worry about me, Okay, I'll

414
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 4: meet up with you. According to her, my grandmother did

415
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 4: high deprogrammers to come and kidnap her, and she like

416
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 4: acted like everything was fine, and then my mom ran

417
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Speaker 4: away as soon as she could and made her way

418
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Speaker 4: back to a church property.

419
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

420
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Speaker 2: The thing I'm just finding so fascinating with this story

421
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Speaker 2: and also with everything these days, is in North Korea

422
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Speaker 2: obviously very cult like culture.

423
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Speaker 1: You escape that, you start a cult.

424
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Speaker 2: Depprogrammers getting people out of the cult in that era

425
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 2: were very much their own project dynamic were you know,

426
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Speaker 2: like in essence, like very abusive a lot of the time.

427
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Speaker 2: Why can't we just respond to a cult culture by

428
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Speaker 2: not creating a new one?

429
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Speaker 1: So it's so hard for us. It's a cult within

430
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Speaker 1: a cult within a cult within a cult. It just

431
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Speaker 1: never ended. We react, Yeah, and.

432
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Speaker 3: It's just so interesting the narratives that we make about

433
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 3: what happened, because to your mother this was like a

434
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Speaker 3: heroic story, like I escaped the programmers.

435
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: Probably was partly jaligy, Yeah, totally.

436
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 4: I later heard from another family member that it happened

437
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 4: like according to them, like much more relaxed, and you know,

438
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Speaker 4: they just wanted to talk to my mom. But my

439
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 4: mom saw them and thought I'm about to be kidnapped, right,

440
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Speaker 4: And so they were actually like on a boat, and

441
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Speaker 4: I jumped over the side, according to her, and just

442
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 4: like swam away when no one was looking.

443
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: Wow. But yeah, so but that was before you.

444
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,880
Speaker 4: That was way before I was born. I think when

445
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 4: I came along. Well, first of all, when people got

446
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 4: married in the church, if you're if you're legally married

447
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 4: to someone, then if they have like a psychotic break

448
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 4: or if there's something wrong with them, then their spouse

449
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 4: is in charge of them.

450
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: Right.

451
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,880
Speaker 4: So once my mom got married, my grandparents couldn't really

452
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 4: try and kidnap her anymore, because I think what they

453
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 4: were doing with the Dow programmers was they were kidnapping them,

454
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 4: bringing them to a favorable judge who would say this

455
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 4: person can't make decisions for themselves, and then they would

456
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,479
Speaker 4: have to get treatment, I see, or you know, they

457
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 4: would have to at least be under their parents' like

458
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 4: legal in a good way or something. Yeah. Yes, so

459
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 4: you can't really do that if someone is married, because

460
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 4: then it's just their partner that's becomes.

461
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 3: Now the part the group. So they're Okay.

462
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 4: So between that and then me being born, I think

463
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 4: my grandparents were like, Okay, we just want to like

464
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 4: let's see if we can like not be I'll be friends,

465
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 4: but you know, not try and kidnap so that we

466
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 4: get to see our grandkids sometimes.

467
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 1: Right, So, what were some of the beliefs of the group.

468
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 1: So it's kind of Christian and kind of weird that

469
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: tries like almost all of them.

470
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 4: So many, Like I feel like that's like very like

471
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 4: more many adjacent where you're like, oh, we have the Bible,

472
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 4: then we have this other book, right, and this other

473
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 4: book says this other guy is the new Yeah, because

474
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 4: he was prophety. He was so Rebermon said he was

475
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 4: a messiah.

476
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 3: He was Jesus back in a new form because Jesus

477
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 3: took a time out when he got crucified.

478
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

479
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he was picking it back up from there.

480
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

481
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 4: Jesus pleaded with him to take over when he was

482
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 4: a teen, and he graciously accepted.

483
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: So sweet. Yeah.

484
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,959
Speaker 4: So he said everyone has to be married because that

485
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 4: is the way to erase original sin. And then you

486
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 4: can if you go to a blessing and you have babies,

487
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 4: then your kids are going to be born without original sin.

488
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 1: Oh, perfect way to create more members.

489
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, So that was the gist of it. There's like

490
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 4: a lot of other stuff, like there's evil spirits everywhere

491
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 4: and we're in a battle between good and evil. And

492
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 4: there was a sociologist who coined the term doomsday cult

493
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 4: and it was about the Unification Church. It's just it's

494
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 4: a very kind of a textbook cult and a lot

495
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 4: of textbooks were actually written about it in the seventies

496
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 4: because I feel like it came into prominence, like while

497
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 4: sociology like was kind of really having a moment. So also,

498
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 4: the term love bombing was invented by the church. It

499
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 4: was like really into like being really nice to people

500
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 4: and getting them to join the cult.

501
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: So these marriages were arranged, they were all arranged in

502
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: the church. What were other forms of control that the

503
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 2: church had over people's lives.

504
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 4: I'm like, what wasn't it was like I mean, in

505
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 4: the beginning, people all lived together and like communes kind

506
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 4: of when I was like a baby, they started people

507
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 4: started to move out because we were all supposed to

508
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 4: like move away and start our own like little outposts essentially.

509
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 4: But like we all woke up really early on every

510
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 4: Sunday morning to recite a pledge at five in the morning,

511
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 4: where we you know, like reiterated. It's almost like the

512
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 4: Pledge of Allegiance, but it was longer, and it was

513
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 4: to the church or to Reverend Moon.

514
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: Do you remember it?

515
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 4: It changed around a little bit, so like every five

516
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 4: or ten years it would change the words. There was

517
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 4: something about blood, sweat and tears. There was something about

518
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,719
Speaker 4: vanquishing your enemy.

519
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was like it was a.

520
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 4: Little bit more hardcore when I was a kid, and

521
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 4: then I feel like it tried to get a little

522
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 4: softer when I was older.

523
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: But you know, wow, interesting and like were these instructions

524
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 2: coming from Reverend Moon or was there local leadership?

525
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 4: There was local leadership, but it was very much a

526
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,959
Speaker 4: top down situation where we weren't supposed to really differ

527
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 4: in any way from each other. What what were your

528
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 4: thoughts about it? How did you like, yeah, how did

529
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 4: you feel about it? I feel like when I was

530
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 4: a kid, there was just so many opportunities to do

531
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 4: something wrong that I was really caught up in the like,

532
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 4: you know, you weren't supposed to date, you weren't supposed

533
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 4: to you're supposed to not really talk about the church

534
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 4: to most outsiders, it's.

535
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 3: Just like the group I grew up in. It, just

536
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 3: like the two by twos. Yeah we're not We're supposed

537
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 3: to act so different that people go, what group are you?

538
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 4: Like, Oh my God, saying okay, so yeah yeah. And

539
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 4: then there was this whole idea that there's like evil

540
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 4: spirits everywhere and you have to appease them or you're

541
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 4: or you're like fighting them or whatever you know you

542
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 4: have to do.

543
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 3: Would scare you evil spirits. Yeah, I'm talking about my

544
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 3: sleep real demons.

545
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

546
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 4: And I feel like there's something similar with Mormons, where

547
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 4: Mormons they baptized dead people, but we would marry dead

548
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 4: people married.

549
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sorry, what do you mean?

550
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 4: So ostensibly you would like go and pay for them

551
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 4: to get blessed, like you would say, oh, my grandparents

552
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 4: died before they could get married in the church. I

553
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 4: will pay money and then in the spirit world they'll.

554
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: Be married and so they'll be saved.

555
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 4: So I say, because they can go to heaven.

556
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: Are dead people marrying other dead people?

557
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 4: So mostly, but.

558
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: Because you know what's coming.

559
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 4: When I was like eight, I went to a mass

560
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 4: wedding I was in the nosebleed section because it's often

561
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 4: happens in stadiums.

562
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:51,959
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

563
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 4: And I saw like, you know, rows of big girls

564
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 4: wearing pretty dresses, which was exciting. And then at some point,

565
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 4: I you're the announcer saying like so and so is

566
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 4: getting married to Buddha, so and so is getting married

567
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 4: to Saint Francis, so and So's I don't know, just

568
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 4: like listing off all these famous dead people that are

569
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 4: getting married. Two women who were on the stage. Wow,

570
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 4: And I was so far away I didn't see that

571
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 4: these were like eighty year old women who were just

572
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 4: like getting married to a dead person.

573
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I thought.

574
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 4: I thought, like I was like, oh, is that an

575
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 4: option for me? Am I going to like apply to.

576
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: Be lass als or something?

577
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they'll be like here's I don't know, General

578
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 4: Patton or something, you know, Like I was like, are

579
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 4: they gonna, like, I don't how do you check a

580
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 4: box to make sure you're not given a dead person?

581
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: Because I don't want that. That would have kept me

582
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: up at night. Yeah, that was a little scary.

583
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, aside from that, was it exciting? Like what was that.

584
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: Like seeing those ceremonies. They were long. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

585
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. It wasn't like going to a pop concert. Okay.

586
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 4: So apparently Whitney Houston was supposed to sing at one

587
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 4: of the blessings in Washington, d c. In like the

588
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 4: late nineties, and she backed out last minute, and I

589
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 4: was there and I would have been so excited to

590
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 4: see her. I'm so sorry, frickin jerk.

591
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that might one of our happened in history. Just kidding. No,

592
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: it's so traumatic. I mean, how is he choosing who

593
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: marries who?

594
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 4: So for my parents, it was like everyone who was

595
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 4: eligible and whose central figure or like their local pastors

596
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 4: said it was okay. They would go to a big

597
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 4: room and there'd be like women on one side, men

598
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 4: on the other, and you just go down bang bang

599
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 4: bang bank bank kind of just like be like you

600
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 4: and on you or maybe you and like just take

601
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 4: a second. And then when I came along, it was

602
00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 4: supposed to be well, he still arranged people in person sometimes,

603
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 4: but he was like kind of retired from that. You

604
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 4: could also just send him your picture and they would

605
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 4: like pick out a picture of a dude and send

606
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 4: it back to you.

607
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: How many of these marriages were successful. Do we know?

608
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:18,959
Speaker 4: Well, according to the church, they were all very So

609
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 4: I did end up going to one when I was

610
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 4: twenty one, I want to say. And of all my

611
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 4: friends who were in one, most of them have gotten divorced.

612
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: Obvious that makes sense.

613
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there's like a couple of us left, and

614
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 4: then there's like a couple of people who are like

615
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 4: still really in the church and have a bunch of kids.

616
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, we went to one. Do you remember that? No,

617
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: you went to a don't remember? No? Wow? Wait you

618
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: went to what?

619
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 2: We went to a Unification Church Sunday service out of

620
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: curiosity because it was like when we first.

621
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: Podcast and we had yeah, Pasadena.

622
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: Possibly it was in like I thought it was in

623
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: more of like an outskirts town maybe, but it might

624
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: have been. Yeah, Like we were thinking maybe we would

625
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: do an episode on it, but it was so boring

626
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: that there just wasn't enough.

627
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: To talk about.

628
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 3: That's a tactic, don't you think where it's just like

629
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,239
Speaker 3: because I feel like again the two by twos kind

630
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 3: of do that. They make it so boring that you're

631
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 3: like hypnotized and somehow they're not really saying anything, but

632
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 3: you think they've said something smart. Yeah.

633
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 4: Well, that's what I talked about in the essay, was

634
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 4: I was noticing that Trump kind of also does that.

635
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 4: It's called the shotgun argument, where they just tell you

636
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 4: a lot of random points all at the same time,

637
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 4: and the point is not to overwhelm you with their intellect,

638
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 4: but just to kind of stun you and so you

639
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 4: don't have a foothold of like how.

640
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: To argue back. It's so fascinating.

641
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and it works because you just disassociate so

642
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 3: much and it just goes straight into your brain.

643
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: That's so interesting to me though, because I feel like

644
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: the people who seem to want to stay in the

645
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: culture the most are the ones who are having more

646
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 2: heightened emotional experiences.

647
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 3: But mine was like the fear was going straight into

648
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 3: my anxiety. The anxiety was but like the thoughts going

649
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 3: through my critical mind. I was just beamed with fear.

650
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 3: But it didn't make sense what they were even saying,

651
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 3: because it doesn't make sense.

652
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: Mormon church used to be three hours long when I

653
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 2: was growing up, and it was so fucking boring. But

654
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 2: sometimes like a missionary would go up, or you'd have

655
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 2: an engaging bishop and he would like start crying and

656
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 2: I don't know why I'm saying he I feel like

657
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 2: I only.

658
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 1: Remember it being mean, vertilized.

659
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, but somebody would go up and bear their testimony

660
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: and it'd be really moving, and those would be the

661
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 2: talks that I'd be like, I believe in this church.

662
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: It wouldn't be the boring guys. Ever, give me a testimony.

663
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 4: When I was a kid, when I was like time

664
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 4: for that at camp, I'd be like, yes, tell me

665
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 4: your life story.

666
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: Were you into it? Were you like I want to

667
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 3: give my testimony? I love this church.

668
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 2: Well.

669
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 4: So when I was a kid again, I I feel

670
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 4: like I was just mostly anxious all the time because

671
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 4: there were so many ways to sin or do something wrong,

672
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 4: you know, and my parents were like you know, had

673
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 4: anger issues and were abusive in different ways. So I

674
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 4: was more like just like survival mode and like, okay, yeah,

675
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 4: let me try and do everything perfectly to you know,

676
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 4: fit in here. And when I was sixteen, I did

677
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 4: have a moment where I was like, oh, I think

678
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 4: there's something to this church interesting and I like got

679
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 4: really into it for like I feel like a year

680
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 4: or two. That was also a time where so we're

681
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 4: skipping aheat a bit, but I had been raised on

682
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 4: the Jersey Shore mostly, and then my parents, because my

683
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 4: mom had a vision from God, decided to move us

684
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 4: to Korea. This was in the year two thousand and

685
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 4: she moved us to the border of North and South Korea,

686
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 4: so so close that we could like hear the North

687
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 4: Korean speak loud system.

688
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 3: Wow.

689
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was very close. And we were in the

690
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 4: middle of nowhere, like absolutely in the middle of nowhere,

691
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 4: and like you had to walk two miles through rice

692
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 4: patties to get to a bus station. And I think

693
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 4: part of me was just like almost had this moment

694
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 4: where I was like, Okay, I need to like belong here,

695
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 4: otherwise I'm.

696
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: Going to lose my mind, right, that makes sense.

697
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 4: So I got really into it. And then I went

698
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 4: to college and I heard a lecture about critical thinking,

699
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 4: about like how to tell what kind of arguments people

700
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 4: are using against you, like the straw man fallacy or whatever.

701
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 4: It was just like a one hour lecture, but I

702
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 4: remember reading it, or like listening to the lecture and

703
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 4: being like, oh my gosh, this is great. I will

704
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 4: understand more about the church through this because I'll be

705
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 4: able to make these critical arguments in support of the church.

706
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: Wow.

707
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 4: And then I went back to my dorm room and

708
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 4: I tried to read church material and I was like, oh.

709
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: Oh, oh shit, oh no, what did that feel like?

710
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 4: I just I took my books, my church books, and

711
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 4: I just threw them in the back of my closet,

712
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 4: and I was like, I'm not going to think about

713
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 4: this for a little bit.

714
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 3: And that sounds like a good That sounds like a

715
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 3: good plan to be honest.

716
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I would did take for later. Yeah.

717
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 4: So then it took me a few more years and

718
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 4: then like finally there was a moment like in my

719
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 4: mid twenties where I was like, Okay, now it's time

720
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 4: to leave.

721
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: Wow.

722
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: Wow, what a great argument for having critical thinking classes

723
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: in school.

724
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 3: I know.

725
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: I want to go back a little bit though, because

726
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 2: before you moved away, you were in New Jersey.

727
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: Were you on like a compound or no.

728
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 4: So when I was born, my parents lived in the

729
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 4: New Yorker Hotel in Midtown Manhattan, which is a building

730
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 4: owned by the church, and like a bunch of church

731
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 4: families lived in it at the time. And then Reverdmon

732
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 4: was like, you all need to leave because you need

733
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 4: to like start your own outposts, because if we're all together,

734
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 4: we can't get more people to join the church. So

735
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 4: my parents moved in our south to the Jersey Shore,

736
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 4: and I grew up mostly there, but then we would

737
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 4: do church stuff on the weekends or in the summers.

738
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 4: But then during the week I sometimes was going to

739
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 4: public school and just had to like pretend I was normal,

740
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 4: which was impossible.

741
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,479
Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, it was impossible. It was like.

742
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 4: Hard, hard, Well, at least you have a normal name.

743
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 4: My name is Aquina. And this is the nineties on

744
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 4: the Jersey You know how many laurens I went to

745
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 4: school with. And I was like and they were like,

746
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 4: what's your name? Why are you wearing like weird baggy

747
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 4: stained clothes like or like just like big clothes to

748
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 4: hide your body because you're modest, And oh was that

749
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 4: a thing? Yeah, girls are the devil and you know

750
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 4: we ya blah.

751
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: Blah as we all know.

752
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 2: Yes, So would like if I were walking down the

753
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: street in the seventies, would I be able to identify

754
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 2: who the Moonies were?

755
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 4: You probably wouldn't, okay, But there were giveaways. There was

756
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 4: like a lot of times they were selling flowers on

757
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 4: street corners of the city or Yeah. That was the

758
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 4: biggest thing was they were like selling things like little trinkets.

759
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 4: But I feel like I can I'm like I can

760
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 4: tell because oftentimes if someone was getting blessed, they would

761
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 4: wear a blessing ring, and so it's like there's like

762
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 4: little tells.

763
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: If you are a church member.

764
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 3: I can also tell, and no one else from your church. Yeah,

765
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 3: and other members wouldn't be able to tell. But I'm like,

766
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 3: oh that yeah, and I'll ask and the usually be

767
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 3: I was convinced I had that power as well. For Mormons.

768
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 2: I did identify successfully other Mormon children in random.

769
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: Places, like I'm sure, I'm sure they loved that. No,

770
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: it was like a bonding thing. Oh okay, that you

771
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: were a child as well. Yeah, yeah, oh I thought

772
00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: this was your child parents are calling the coup.

773
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 2: That would be like, hey, you fell a twelve year

774
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 2: old who was softwered here.

775
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. And they often had CTR rings too.

776
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 2: That was one of our giveaways, choose the right every

777
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: kid oud a CTR ring.

778
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 3: Amazing well, I mean in the two by twos they

779
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 3: say that we can tell each other because of the spirit,

780
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 3: and it's not because of the bun or.

781
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 1: The or the long dress.

782
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 3: Long dress and the like very specific type of long dress.

783
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: That's sure the spirit, So keep that in mind.

784
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh, so you were allowed to go to college.

785
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: So what was the policy on or the thinking on

786
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 2: outsiders versus us?

787
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 4: So outsiders were being controlled by Satan, sure, and we

788
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 4: needed to like win them over, but they needed to

789
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 4: be approached very carefully and they were essentially our enemy,

790
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 4: but they didn't know that, and so it was very

791
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 4: confusing for a kid to navigate. Yeah, I was allowed

792
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 4: to go to college, you're right, but it was frowned

793
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 4: upon and a lot of my friends went and did

794
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 4: like a two year program at least in between, very

795
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 4: against similar to Mormons. It's like Mormons with the Asian

796
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 4: twist or something, but they were doing a two year

797
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 4: program where they were going out not so much to proselytize,

798
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 4: although that did happen, but again to fundraise and make

799
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 4: a shitload of money for the church because they were

800
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 4: just like q eighteen year olds. They were just sending

801
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 4: out to random street corners in random cities with like

802
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 4: a bucket of wind chimes or flowers and being like

803
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 4: you know, selling them in cash for twelve hours, sixteen

804
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 4: hours a day. So a lot of people were pushed

805
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 4: to do that. My parents are a little bit strange

806
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 4: in that they were very devout, but they did not

807
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 4: want me going on that program. There were kids who

808
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 4: were badly injured and in a couple of cases were

809
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 4: killed on that program. How So, there were a few

810
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 4: fatalities because they were sending out teams of these teens

811
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 4: in vans and they were working sometimes we're twenty four

812
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 4: hours like they would sometimes do like it was almost

813
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,280
Speaker 4: like a fasting thing where they would instead of fasting,

814
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 4: they would be just fundraising for twenty four hours. They

815
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 4: were insanely sleep deprived driving these large vands. So there

816
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 4: were a couple, at least one or two car crashes.

817
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 4: Then they had also sent out a teenager and she

818
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 4: was murdered because she like knocked on the wrong door.

819
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah.

820
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 4: So I had at the time been trying to get

821
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 4: my parents to let me go on this mission because

822
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 4: like all my friends were going, and I was so

823
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 4: tired of being like the only church kid at a

824
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 4: school and not knowing anyone, and I'd wanted to go.

825
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh, they're never gonna let

826
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: me go.

827
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 4: But yeah, so to my knowledge that program is still

828
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 4: going on today.

829
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 3: Oh really Yeah, well that leads me to a question

830
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 3: I have about the.

831
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: Money, like we're yeah, well that happening.

832
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 4: I feel like that's a really good question, and I

833
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 4: feel like this story is undertold, even though it's been

834
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 4: like right under our noses the whole time. So basically,

835
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 4: ever since the seventies, when Reverend Moon was here, he

836
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 4: was like starting businesses and like putting his henchmen in charge.

837
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 4: So there was like nominally not super related to the church,

838
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 4: but definitely related to the church, and so he was

839
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 4: like plowing this money back into the church and back

840
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 4: into these businesses, and then with those profits, he was

841
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 4: also donating them to politicians to think tanks. Really, he

842
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:54,760
Speaker 4: started a right wing newspaper decades ago called The Washington Times.

843
00:43:55,400 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 4: So he's like kind of the story behind MAGA, in

844
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 4: my opinion is that, like I don't think MAGA would

845
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 4: exist without Reverend Moon because he started the Washington Times.

846
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 4: He gave a voice to these Republican conservative politicians. He

847
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 4: gave them tons of money. They would do things like

848
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 4: I even noticed we spoke about January sixth. I even

849
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 4: noticed on January sixth, Matt Gates got up in front

850
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 4: of Congress and said, oh, it's Antifa, who was in

851
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 4: charge of January sixth. The Washington Times said so, and

852
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 4: he had an article from them with him. And so

853
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 4: I feel like they've done that a lot. Like they

854
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 4: would write an article and like either Rush Limbaugh or

855
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 4: Sean Hannity would pick it up in the nineties or

856
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 4: the eighties or and then like some congressman would use

857
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 4: it as something they could point to, and it feels

858
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 4: like to give them as evidence ye validity.

859
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 3: It feels like family values were really at the core

860
00:44:58,680 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 3: of the passage.

861
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 4: It was very much anti communism, and then it became

862
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 4: like yeah, traditional family values and anti gay, anti feminist.

863
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 4: Just there's a bunch of boring dudes screaming yeah really

864
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 4: and just like causing a lot of trouble, not only

865
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 4: in America, but they've done this to other countries as well,

866
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 4: where they just like, really, I feel like are responsible

867
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 4: for a right wing lurch.

868
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 1: Like by buying up a media.

869
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, by buying it up, by starting it. Like Reagan said,

870
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 4: the Washington Times was his favorite newspaper and he read

871
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 4: it every day.

872
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: Wow.

873
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the amount of influence that you can have when

874
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 2: you buy a freakin' newspaper.

875
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's wild.

876
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, and for a long time, Like they were there

877
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 4: before Fox Media. They were there before Ohn started in

878
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 4: their offices Fox News, like they have Washington Times contributors

879
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,879
Speaker 4: on there. They kind of like were the Mama Newspaper

880
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 4: to like birth all these like shitty conservative like media companies. Yeah,

881
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 4: so they're all connected.

882
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 1: Wow, that is fascinating.

883
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 4: And more than that, he like gave money to Reagan.

884
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 4: He was like very involved with the Bush family, Reverend Moon.

885
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 4: He gave them tons of money, even though Reverend Moon

886
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 4: died in twenty twelve. The Unification Church, like they paid

887
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 4: Trump to speak at one of their things just like

888
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 4: a few years ago. Like the Bush spoke a lot. Yeah,

889
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 4: like they were locked and they were locked in with Bush.

890
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 3: Was he taking money for himself? Was over men like

891
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 3: living lavish?

892
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 4: He's very much a Trump guy, like in that he

893
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 4: bought up a crap load of properties in the seventies,

894
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 4: like a whole university in Connecticut, farms in in Hawaii,

895
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 4: a seminary in upstate New York, a skyscraper in midtown Manhattan,

896
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 4: as one does. Yeah, he and a family had property everywhere.

897
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: And like was he enriching, Like was he living a

898
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 2: very lavish lifestyle himself?

899
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, old toilet.

900
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 4: I don't know about the toilet situation. I know you

901
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 4: like helicopters, and you know his wife was always head

902
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 4: to toe like designer gear.

903
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: But the members were not living lit.

904
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 4: No, the members were working for nothing. Like I heard

905
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 4: from someone who did work at the Washington Times when

906
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 4: it started that they were osensibly paid quote air quotes.

907
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 4: They were paid for their time working. But they would

908
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,919
Speaker 4: be handing out the checks on a Friday and be like, hey,

909
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 4: does anyone wanna like money is tied paid speed? Yeah,

910
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 4: does anyone want to tie? And like so you'd have

911
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 4: to like tie in front of your co workers. So

912
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 4: you're all church members. So they were just like a

913
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 4: lot of church members who are working for nothing wow,

914
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 4: or either volunteering their time or working for church businesses,

915
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 4: you know, making hardly anything.

916
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 1: Which is so common.

917
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: And I wonder, like, was there any chatter about that

918
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: disparity and that being was that a problem for anyone?

919
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 4: I don't remember hearing about that, because I remember hearing like, well,

920
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 4: Reverend Moon is like the biggest king of them all,

921
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 4: so he should like, and he's meeting with presidents, he's

922
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 4: meeting with kings and queens. He needs to like be

923
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 4: at their level.

924
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 3: Oh of course, is that what makes you're like, where

925
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 3: do I sign I take all my money, I will

926
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:41,280
Speaker 3: live in poverty?

927
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:41,720
Speaker 1: Yes?

928
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 3: Right?

929
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: Wow? So interesting? Okay, So did your parents did they

930
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 1: remain in the church.

931
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 4: They remained, but around when Reverend Moon died in twenty

932
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 4: twelve and a couple of years leading up to that,

933
00:48:55,360 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 4: his large family kind of exploded into factions, and my

934
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 4: parents went with the youngest son, whose name is Hung

935
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 4: Jin or he calls himself Sean in America Sean Moon.

936
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 3: So the reverend's youngest son, your parents decided to follow.

937
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: But the wife also was a leader, right wife.

938
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was trying to pass her and give like

939
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 4: the power to his sons at first. And she seems

940
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 4: to have taken over the like kind of main church branch.

941
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 2: It was photos of her on the wall, and they

942
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: were talking about the mother when we went.

943
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, so people probably call her, they call her true mother.

944
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 4: And so she's I think living in Las Vegas or

945
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 4: South Korea or both, and she's taken over the main

946
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 4: church branch and my parents are part of a splinter

947
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 4: cult now called Sanctuary Church or also a rout of

948
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 4: Iron Ministries, And they got in the news a few

949
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 4: years ago because like, do you guys know this? They

950
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 4: they got in the news a few years ago because

951
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 4: they were all had a bunch of ar fifteens and

952
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 4: had this big like marriage rededication ceremony. But bring your

953
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 4: assault rifle.

954
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: Whoa, Yeah, Okay, this sounds familiar.

955
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you go, yeah, if you google Sanctuary.

956
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,240
Speaker 1: Church, I'm looking for a pictures rifle. Oh my, oh

957
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: my god.

958
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 4: It's probably a picture of my dad.

959
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: You're probably looking at a picture of my dad. It's

960
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: a bunch of old ladies. Okay, maybe my mom. This

961
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: is wild? Yeah, why did they choose him? Do you think?

962
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 4: Okay, So when my parents moved to South Korea with

963
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 4: me when I was a teenager, my dad started English

964
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 4: speaking service in Seoul. There were like a few ex

965
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 4: pat church members out there, but there wasn't really a

966
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 4: place for them. And then Sean Moon moved to Seoul

967
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 4: and he started his own and then they combined, and

968
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 4: so by the time this break happened, my parents and

969
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 4: him had been working pretty closely for I want to say,

970
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 4: like almost ten years, like more than five, and so

971
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 4: it was very natural for them to go with him.

972
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: I see.

973
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 2: Splinter groups are endlessly fascinating to me. There's so many.

974
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 2: There's some Mormon offshoot, like, yes, there's just there are

975
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 2: so many.

976
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 3: How do you decide just started as we're st Yeah,

977
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 3: and it should be.

978
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 4: A BuzzFeed article that's like which.

979
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,439
Speaker 1: Off sheet, which off shoe?

980
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 3: Would you which kind of sour dough Brederio please pitch that.

981
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 3: I'm curious if when the Reverend died, if there was

982
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 3: any legend around him being immortal, or if this was shocking,

983
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:46,280
Speaker 3: or if.

984
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: It changed anything.

985
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 4: So not a ton Okay, there was this idea that

986
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 4: like he had really wanted North and South Korea to

987
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 4: unite before he died, and there was like this big

988
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 4: church event that happened around then that they were hopefully

989
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 4: trying to work for. So it's like, no, it wasn't

990
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 4: one of those cults where they were like, he's never

991
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 4: gonna die, okay, Okay, but I think there were I

992
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 4: think if they weren't lying to themselves, they would have

993
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 4: said they had a hope for something more to happen

994
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 4: before he died, that makes sense.

995
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you have this crack when you go to college. Yah,

996
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 2: was there something specific that led you to like revisit

997
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 2: some of those doubts?

998
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 4: So I tried to ignore it because even though I

999
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 4: had been like friendly with outsiders, I didn't have anyone

1000
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 4: I like really relied on anyone like I was so

1001
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 4: used to just like faking my life around them. So

1002
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 4: it was like, oh, if I believe this, I lose

1003
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 4: my family and my community, and I did not want that,

1004
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 4: so I ignored it.

1005
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 1: I got married in the church. Was it a mass wedding? Yeah?

1006
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 4: Oh, but my husband and I were supposed to have

1007
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 4: an arranged marriage. We already knew each other and we

1008
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,479
Speaker 4: already liked each other, and so that when our parents

1009
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 4: were like, how about this person, we were like okay,

1010
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 4: we were like secretly making out, and then we went

1011
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 4: through the blessing and everyone was like, you guys, like this,

1012
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 4: this is a sign that the blessing really.

1013
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,320
Speaker 1: Worth really worked America.

1014
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, because when we came along, sometimes your parents

1015
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 4: could also bless you. So our parents they like chose us.

1016
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: But I see how many couples were there.

1017
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 4: So they said four hundred million because they were counting

1018
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 4: dead people.

1019
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: Oh cool.

1020
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 4: I don't know how many. I was looking this up

1021
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 4: the other day because I was like how many were there?

1022
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 4: And I was like, were there even four hundred? I

1023
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 4: don't know, and uh so I I think there was

1024
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 4: like a couple thousand, maybe a thousand.

1025
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: That's wild, yes, wild.

1026
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 3: Photo.

1027
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: Do you have a photo of it?

1028
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 4: I do have some photos. They're like blory and you

1029
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 4: can be like there's a Kina like in that row.

1030
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: What did it feel like?

1031
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 4: It felt kind of terrible. I've been thinking about it

1032
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:19,439
Speaker 4: lately because now I'm forty, and you know, I got

1033
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 4: blessed when I was twenty one, and I thought I was.

1034
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 1: An old maid.

1035
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 4: I thought it was a spinster. You guys, there were

1036
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 4: girls who were getting blessed that I had babysat. They

1037
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 4: were like sixteen.

1038
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,839
Speaker 1: Wait, girls were getting married at sixteen. Yeah, just a

1039
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: few of them.

1040
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,839
Speaker 4: I know. It was one of those things where like

1041
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 4: I've been sitting with him thinking about a lot lately,

1042
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 4: and I'm like, that was like way more traumatic than

1043
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 4: I remember, which is like, is not all of our

1044
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:53,399
Speaker 4: child yeah, like especially the cult life. But you're like, oh,

1045
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 4: we were all coerced into that, like even though I

1046
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 4: loved the person of getting married to I was like

1047
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 4: getting married with all these people, A lot of them

1048
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 4: I didn't know, and he and I I don't think

1049
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 4: we would have ever chosen to be married at that

1050
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 4: young age, even though we liked each other a lot.

1051
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 4: And then all the all the girls the night before

1052
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 4: I was like we were in a dormitory and I

1053
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 4: just remember girls running around and like cry, like just

1054
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 4: they were gone, like they didn't know their partner. They

1055
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 4: were like twenty or nineteen and had just gotten off

1056
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 4: of a van where they were fundraising for a year

1057
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 4: and they were told like this is the guy, and

1058
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:36,879
Speaker 4: some of them, some of them were crying. So yeah,

1059
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 4: and then there were like sixteen year olds or you know,

1060
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 4: nineteen year olds. I don't remember anyone like older than

1061
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 4: us that was like, you know, even in their mid twenties.

1062
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, it was really brutal. Yeah, that's devastating. What

1063
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:52,760
Speaker 1: if you get someone with bad breath?

1064
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 4: Also, Yeah, there was like so many jerks and like

1065
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 4: just so many and like you're wearing like there's so

1066
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 4: many ugly dresses.

1067
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 1: Too, could you pick out your dress?

1068
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 4: I actually what we were able to I've heard now

1069
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 4: you can't pick out your dress. You just have an

1070
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 4: ugly dress that your mother picks out for you.

1071
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 1: Terrible.

1072
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 4: Okay, my dress was kind of cute. It was like

1073
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 4: asymmetrical routing.

1074
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:17,399
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

1075
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, okay, well then I guess it's all yeah. Well,

1076
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 3: I mean, do you still keep in contact with people

1077
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 3: some I still keep in contact with some of my

1078
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 3: good friends, like the girl who was sitting like to

1079
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 3: my right when we were getting blessed.

1080
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:41,839
Speaker 4: We still talk. So when we were growing up, they

1081
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 4: called us blessed children because we were from the blessing,

1082
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 4: and we were told that we were all brothers and

1083
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 4: sisters and so we had to really take care of

1084
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 4: each other. And so that kind of made it almost

1085
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 4: easier to leave because I remember some of my friends

1086
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 4: telling me like I have a secret boyfriend, or I,

1087
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:03,720
Speaker 4: you know, be gay or something, and I remember thinking

1088
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:05,840
Speaker 4: like it was drilled into me that this is my

1089
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,720
Speaker 4: brother or sister, like I'm that bond is gonna remain.

1090
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,320
Speaker 4: And even when I thought I was a true believer,

1091
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 4: if people came and told me things like I made

1092
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 4: out with a guy, I don't know what to do,

1093
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 4: I would absolutely hold their secrets and like not tell anyone,

1094
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 4: and so I feel like, you know, I'm not friends

1095
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 4: with everyone from the church or you know, like I

1096
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 4: feel like I have a lot of good feelings towards everyone,

1097
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 4: Like I know what a terrible childhood we all had,

1098
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 4: and I wish everyone the best even if I'm not

1099
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 4: in contact with them, But I still I feel like

1100
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 4: I still love everyone.

1101
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 2: Wow, it sounds somewhat unique in that you know so

1102
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 2: much at the time, we hear about a culture within

1103
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 2: occult of ratting on everyone, like it being required to.

1104
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 4: There was definitely like, yeah, there was definitely a lot

1105
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 4: of trauma that we all had to do. I think

1106
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 4: for me, even like if we were acting kind of

1107
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 4: shitty to each other when we were teens, or you know,

1108
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 4: like some like some girl like ratted me out for

1109
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 4: like having not dress code at camp. It's still a

1110
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 4: little bit annoyed with her, still a little resentment there.

1111
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 4: But I'm like, we were all teens, Like what else

1112
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 4: were we gonna do? Yeah, you know, like I feel

1113
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 4: like I absolutely have forgiveness in my heart for any

1114
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 4: other blessed child, and I'm sure I offended or hurt

1115
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 4: other people, and I would definitely be happy to ask

1116
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 4: for forgiveness. I feel like I have a harder time

1117
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 4: for giving a lot of the first generation who raised us,

1118
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 4: And I'm like, I know you were damaged and that's

1119
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 4: why you joined, but honestly, like, what the.

1120
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: Hell, guys. Yeah.

1121
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 3: One of the other things that you said that really

1122
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 3: interested me was how demonized therapy was. Oh yeah, and

1123
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 3: how that's just a warning that you're probably in a

1124
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 3: high control group.

1125
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 4: Can you say a little bit more about that. Yeah,

1126
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 4: So it wasn't just therapy. It was like kind of

1127
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 4: like all medical professionals were oh a little bit treated suspiciously,

1128
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 4: especially therapists, because I think because they were so scared

1129
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 4: of the church in turn. But I did go get

1130
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 4: regular checkups when I was a kid. I think a

1131
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 4: lot of that was also like I was going to

1132
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 4: public school and I needed to get.

1133
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 1: Like batmanization, right right.

1134
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 4: I did have a health like health issues that like

1135
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 4: kind of got ignored for a while. A lot of

1136
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 4: people didn't even go to regular doctors. It was like,

1137
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,959
Speaker 4: don't don't even go if you have cancer. And there's

1138
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 4: actually like it feels like a very huge crossover between

1139
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 4: that and like the RFK. Yeah, because there's like people

1140
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 4: being like you can pray your cancer away or just

1141
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 4: this special tea or whatever.

1142
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 3: You know.

1143
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 2: There's a lot of that too, So it wasn't necessarily

1144
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 2: specifically don't talk about your emotions with a person because

1145
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 2: it might expose us.

1146
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: It was more just like.

1147
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 4: The oh no, I think that was still oare It

1148
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 4: was just everything.

1149
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 1: I have so many more questions about this.

1150
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 2: I think this would be a good time to break

1151
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 2: and pick this back up in the next episode. She's

1152
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 2: so cool, I know, I know. Also I wanted to

1153
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 2: be a voice actor.

1154
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 3: I just want her to be my friend. Well that too,

1155
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 3: I asked her when you went to the bathroom. She

1156
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 3: seemed to hesitant, come out a little strong. Okay, Megan,

1157
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 3: would you join the Unification Church? Okay, so if it's

1158
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 3: the seventies, right, I think I might go on.

1159
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: I like flowers freedom, Okay.

1160
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 3: There was a lot of like we're not working for

1161
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 3: the man, Like we're gonna live on a commune and

1162
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 3: be in the sun and make our own garden.

1163
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 1: I'd like that, make our own garden. Yeah, I just

1164
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 1: feel like there's a garden there.

1165
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 2: You just decided there was a garden involved somewhere.

1166
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 3: I just would like it. I just think I would

1167
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 3: like it. I like it sounds like it started with

1168
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 3: things that I would like. I wouldn't like him, probably

1169
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 3: the reverend. Yeah, but I can just see myself being

1170
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 3: swept away and maybe some of the excitement of selling

1171
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 3: trinkets on the street and getting hitchhikes and free meals,

1172
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 3: and I would join it.

1173
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: I just know I would. Yeah, I could see that

1174
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 1: for you. Yeah, sure, I know.

1175
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 2: It's just it's so I'll never I'll never stop being

1176
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 2: fascinated by this sort of like hippie Christian combination.

1177
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 3: Yes, endlessly fascinating hippy.

1178
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 2: Just like my idea of what it meant to be

1179
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 2: a hippie growing up just seemed so like the antithesis

1180
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 2: of being in like a strict Christian church.

1181
01:01:57,640 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 1: But like so much of that movement turned into these

1182
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 1: like christ.

1183
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's why you see them having so many weird,

1184
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 3: different kinds of rules, because they were like, well, then

1185
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 3: we can do this, actually, and we can do those.

1186
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like chicking and choosing first match. Yeah, it's

1187
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 2: very interesting, she referenced in this interview, like creating a

1188
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: buzzbeed quiz. I think it would be a fun BuzzFeed

1189
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 2: quiz to pick which which belief systems you want to

1190
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 2: pull from and like create your own quid.

1191
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 1: We actually have to do that.

1192
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 3: That's the speeds still exis Yeah, okay, shout out anyway,

1193
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Please

1194
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 3: rate us five stars. If you don't have five stars,

1195
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 3: don't rate us at all. Share it with your friends,

1196
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 3: and as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out

1197
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 3: for red flags, and never ever trust me.

1198
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 1: Bye. This has been an exactly right production hosted by

1199
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 1: me Lo La.

1200
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 3: Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Gee Holly.

1201
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1202
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1203
01:02:58,440 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 3: is Patrick Kuttner.

1204
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 1: The theme song was composed by Holly Ambert Church.

1205
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 3: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hartstark

1206
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 3: and Daniel Kramer.

1207
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast

1208
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 2: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1209
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 3: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1210
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:19,080
Speaker 3: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1211
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 2: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts,

1212
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.