Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of Iheartrading.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt Our.
Speaker 3: Colleague Nola's on Adventures will be returning soon. They call
Speaker 3: b Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer,
Speaker 3: Paull Michigan Control Decant. Most importantly, you are you, You
Speaker 3: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't
Speaker 3: want you to know. On March sixteenth, two thousand, two
Speaker 3: police officers were shot in Atlanta's West End. This is
Speaker 3: one of the oldest neighborhoods in the city with many
Speaker 3: stories behind it. One of these officers passed away as
Speaker 3: a result of this interaction, and the other claimed the
Speaker 3: shooter was one Emm Jamil Abdullah al Amin, the leader
Speaker 3: of a local mosque and in other times. This man
Speaker 3: was formerly known as h Rap Brown, leader of the
Speaker 3: Black Power movement, an honorary officer of the Black Panther Party.
Speaker 3: He was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. But
Speaker 3: was he guilty or was this conviction somehow retribution for
Speaker 3: his activism. The new podcast Radical Investigates interrogates these questions
Speaker 3: and events in a deep dive never experienced before, with
Speaker 3: the investigative journalist Mosey Secret, who dives through exclusive interviews,
Speaker 3: government records, countless sources to get to the bottom of
Speaker 3: the questions inherent in this case. And we are immensely
Speaker 3: fortunate to be joined with him today to learn more
Speaker 3: about this story. Mister Secret, thank you so much for
Speaker 3: coming onto the show.
Speaker 4: You're welcome.
Speaker 5: Please call me mostly, I do it watch sorry, mostly,
Speaker 5: It's really good to see you.
Speaker 4: Man.
Speaker 2: Just for everyone's knowledge, I serve as an executive producer
Speaker 2: on this show Radical. It's made with Tenderfoot TV. As
Speaker 2: many of you know, I make shows with that team,
Speaker 2: and I'm just really proud of the work that's already
Speaker 2: gone into the show. We are coming up right now
Speaker 2: on the final episode. Episode eight is coming out very soon,
Speaker 2: and we just couldn't wait to pick your brain on
Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff that you've found. I think
Speaker 2: maybe a good way into this is mostly how did
Speaker 2: you come across this story? Initially?
Speaker 4: Well, there are kind of two answers to that question,
Speaker 4: you know. So I'm from Atlanta and I grew up
Speaker 4: fairly close to the Muslim community. My family converted to
Speaker 4: Islam when I was a kid. So because he's a
Speaker 4: community of African American Wislims to Atlanta isn't that large.
Speaker 4: I was familiar with a man, Jamie Alamine, in his community,
Speaker 4: and I was also familiar with this case when it happened.
Speaker 4: But as you said, you know, that was twenty years ago,
Speaker 4: and it's not something that has really occupied my mind
Speaker 4: in the kind of intervening years between the shooting and
Speaker 4: the production of this podcast. A year or two ago,
Speaker 4: I was quite randomly introduced to a podcast producer who
Speaker 4: had already started looking into this case. Again. He had
Speaker 4: done extensive his name's Johnny Kaufman. He had done extensive
Speaker 4: public records requests, pulled court documents, and was really kind
Speaker 4: of pointing to some questions in this case. And you know,
Speaker 4: when he told me about this, you know, all these
Speaker 4: things kind of came back to me from my childhood
Speaker 4: and I thought, well, you know, I would love to
Speaker 4: this with you. And it just so happened that he
Speaker 4: was looking for a host and a reporter. And then
Speaker 4: you know, like when I left Atlanta, I went off
Speaker 4: to be a reporter, So it just kind of felt
Speaker 4: like it was one of these stories that was made
Speaker 4: for me.
Speaker 2: Man. And just if you do live in the Atlanta area,
Speaker 2: you probably know Johnny's voice from his work with WABE.
Speaker 2: If you ever listened to the NPR stations in town.
Speaker 2: That's that's how I recognized his voice. From the first time.
Speaker 2: I was like, well, I know this guy.
Speaker 3: And what synchronicity there must be in that moment, because
Speaker 3: you know, hearing, as you said, quite randomly hear this
Speaker 3: story and you, as any member of that community during
Speaker 3: your childhood, you will automatically know the people that are
Speaker 3: being referenced here. There's something that really sticks out in
Speaker 3: in part of this exploration. Could you tell us a
Speaker 3: little bit about this summer camp you attended in childhood
Speaker 3: and how that I just think that's such a fantastic
Speaker 3: way in to the a mom in this community.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, my family converted to Islam from kind of
Speaker 4: different evangelical faiths actually when I was twelve or thirteen
Speaker 4: years old, and a Mam Jamil Elamin's community is one
Speaker 4: of the first that they came into contact with, and
Speaker 4: I think that there was a period, you know, when
Speaker 4: they were still kind of finding their footing, trying to
Speaker 4: figure out how to you know, get their children to
Speaker 4: understand this new faith or whatever. And somehow my parents
Speaker 4: learned about this week long camp that a Ma'am Jamil
Speaker 4: convened in the North Georgia Woods. And so, you know,
Speaker 4: just to kind of give you a sense of what
Speaker 4: kind of kid I was, I was, like, you know,
Speaker 4: this would have been when I was twelve or thirty teen.
Speaker 4: I think that I was like, you know, kind of
Speaker 4: chubby into books, you know, like uh, riding my back
Speaker 4: around the neighborhood, hadn't really been anywhere without my parents.
Speaker 4: Let's just say that I was sheltered. And so this
Speaker 4: camp for me was was quite intense. You know. It
Speaker 4: was from this kind of being taken from this kind
Speaker 4: of sheltered, you know, middle class existence into a fairly
Speaker 4: kind of intense Black revolutionary ideology and setting. And also
Speaker 4: and also you know religious, you know, like extremely religious settings.
Speaker 4: And so there was you know a lot of emphasis
Speaker 4: emphasis on making the five prayers a day, which at
Speaker 4: that time I probably didn't even really know how to make,
Speaker 4: or I was learning, and there was you know, physical
Speaker 4: fitness and self defense, and I was kind of thrust
Speaker 4: into this environment with these kids from the West End,
Speaker 4: that man Jamil's neighborhood, who I didn't really know. And
Speaker 4: these were kids who were they were pretty, they were
Speaker 4: like rough around the edges. They were into stuff I
Speaker 4: wasn't into. They were they liked to fight, you know,
Speaker 4: they liked to cuss, they liked to you know, it
Speaker 4: was just like a It was an immersion into a
Speaker 4: world that I wasn't quite familiar with. And you know,
Speaker 4: as I became older, I began to connect a lot
Speaker 4: of what I experienced in just that one week with
Speaker 4: what that community was. You know, a man Jamil attracted
Speaker 4: people who were down on their luck, who were returning
Speaker 4: home from prison, who were anti establishment for one reason
Speaker 4: or another, and gave them reason to believe in themselves
Speaker 4: and gave them, you know, a cause that they could
Speaker 4: organize their lives around. And so that meant that a
Speaker 4: lot of the people were, you know, like I said,
Speaker 4: kind of rough around the edges, but they placed so
Speaker 4: much faith in him as a leader and to kind
Speaker 4: of organize and redeem their lives, you know, including sending
Speaker 4: their children away to be to be groomed by him.
Speaker 4: So it is a nice little kind of encapsulation of
Speaker 4: what he represented for folks.
Speaker 2: What I'm hearing is that he was he held a
Speaker 2: tremendous amount of influence in that community at the time
Speaker 2: with is that correct?
Speaker 4: Definitely, I mean influence over even the intimate details of
Speaker 4: family life. You know, he would help them arbitrate internal disputes.
Speaker 4: So it was, it was he was considered a leader,
Speaker 4: both a spiritual leader, but also you know, kind of
Speaker 4: helped help them, help them organize their lives.
Speaker 3: And he had a bit of a He also had
Speaker 3: a secular community building area too with the with the
Speaker 3: grocery store, right which as you you paint the scene
Speaker 3: so beautifully, right, it's just across from the what's what's
Speaker 3: the correct Arabic word for mossul masjed. Yeah. So it's
Speaker 3: seems that this this community leader becomes in some ways
Speaker 3: an answer for people who are who are searching for,
Speaker 3: you know, community stability in a way that might not
Speaker 3: have been available previously in this As we know, this
Speaker 3: is something that happens often in the United States in
Speaker 3: one degree or another, because law enforcement so often fails
Speaker 3: right and and commits horrific acts. With with this background,
Speaker 3: we see already a bit of like whitman esque multitudes
Speaker 3: in one man, because he is he is the he
Speaker 3: is the leader, He is a beacon for people in
Speaker 3: the Western community. Yet it seems that the local law,
Speaker 3: the APD, and and other other authorities don't see him
Speaker 3: in that way. Could you tell us a little bit
Speaker 3: about how authorities had regarded the amount before he even
Speaker 3: arrived in Atlanta.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, ma'am. Jimil arrived in Atlanta in the late seventies.
Speaker 4: Prior to that, he had been a nationally known figure
Speaker 4: in the Black Car movement named a Trapp Brown. A
Speaker 4: trap Brown grew up in Louisiana and Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Speaker 4: and there suffered, you know, racial violent and oppression under
Speaker 4: Jim Crow. As a young man, he kind of gravitates
Speaker 4: towards the movement and towards organizing, and eventually he ends
Speaker 4: up in the Black Belt of Alabama helping citizens there
Speaker 4: organized to register it to vote, and also just helping
Speaker 4: them to develop their own leaders and push back against
Speaker 4: the oppression that they were feeling there. He becomes known
Speaker 4: as someone who is courageous and fearless and rash, so,
Speaker 4: you know, like he was doing this work with the
Speaker 4: Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee, which was the one of
Speaker 4: the main activist organizations at the time, and they were
Speaker 4: organized around principles of nonviolence. But when you were with
Speaker 4: these folks out in the countryside, who were, you know,
Speaker 4: miles away from any help and often could suffer the
Speaker 4: whims of any type of local sheriff. They often had
Speaker 4: rifles whatever by their door side to protect themselves because
Speaker 4: it was going to be a long time before law
Speaker 4: enforcement came to help them. And so h Rep. Brown
Speaker 4: goes into these communities and there is this non violent
Speaker 4: ideology that he's working with, but there was also this
Speaker 4: He's also telling people to defend themselves. He's also telling people,
Speaker 4: you know, this is how you use your gun, this
Speaker 4: is how you take these people on. And so he
Speaker 4: people who have been really beaten down he started to
Speaker 4: build back up, and it was around this rhetoric of
Speaker 4: self defense. Now you imagine a person like that becomes
Speaker 4: a bad guy in the eye of law, in the
Speaker 4: eyes of law enforcement, and he refused to back down
Speaker 4: in any confrontation with law enforcement. And so he develops
Speaker 4: this reputation over a period of years as someone who
Speaker 4: was against the police, and he did hate the police,
Speaker 4: and so this, you know, this relationship basically became worse
Speaker 4: and worse, and you know, by the time he was
Speaker 4: in his late twenties, he seemed on the FBI Most
Speaker 4: Warned List for some charges that were trumped up in
Speaker 4: various ways. But this but he developed this reputation as
Speaker 4: someone who really hated law enforcement and was willing to
Speaker 4: defend themselves, defend themselves with weapons against law horsemen and
Speaker 4: you know, like that that breaks down this kind of
Speaker 4: veneer that the cops have is you know, unassailable, and
Speaker 4: so he was a scary person for them.
Speaker 2: Mostly. Did you come across the Rabble Rouser Index from
Speaker 2: the FBI?
Speaker 4: No, I haven't heard of that.
Speaker 2: Okay, So this is something that is available right now
Speaker 2: anybody listening. You can go to the National Archives and
Speaker 2: you can find the FBI's quote Rabble Rouser Index. It's
Speaker 2: also known they use the term subversive control in association
Speaker 2: with this. And there's like two hundred and fifty five
Speaker 2: documents like PDF documents that have been scanned in stunning reads.
Speaker 2: Well it's it's amazing. A lot of it's redacted, but
Speaker 2: I don't want to read too much of this, but
Speaker 2: just a little bit of this, because it's a memo
Speaker 2: from FBI Director j Edgar Hoover, who has played a
Speaker 2: role in so many stories, including the MLK tapes show
Speaker 2: that we made last year, and this is just in
Speaker 2: saying to see this, I'm gonna read it effective immediately.
Speaker 2: In view of the widespread racial unrest, the Bureau will
Speaker 2: maintain a rabble Rouser Index. The index will consist of names,
Speaker 2: identifying data, and background information of individuals who are known
Speaker 2: rabble rousers and have demonstrated by their actions and speeches
Speaker 2: they have a propensity for fomenting racial disorder. And Stokely Carmichael,
Speaker 2: the person who preceded h Rat Brown as the SNCC chairman.
Speaker 2: He is like at the top of the list. Stokely
Speaker 2: Carmichael is like enemy number one when it comes to
Speaker 2: how the FBI views anyone in this realm.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: It includes a ton of Black Power leaders. It also
Speaker 2: includes KKK members and Nazi Party leaders, which is really interesting,
Speaker 2: but it's just I guess it's just to show that
Speaker 2: the FBI viewed h. Rat Brown as an enemy, a
Speaker 2: true an enemy in almost a or uh. And I
Speaker 2: guess I'm sorry, I need to ask a question mostly,
Speaker 2: but it's just like, what what did you find when
Speaker 2: it came to how the FBI was either monitoring or
Speaker 2: what were they watching him in the same way that
Speaker 2: they were watching Stokely Carmichael.
Speaker 4: Definitely. I mean when Quintelpro was was first organized, there
Speaker 4: were I don't want to get too specific because I
Speaker 4: might say something that's wrong, but there were a list
Speaker 4: of names that were included as people who could be
Speaker 4: considered a black messiah, someone who could one of these
Speaker 4: rabbel rousers, who could who the black public could could
Speaker 4: convene around and could ultimately kind of undermine the integrity
Speaker 4: of the United States. And h Rap Brown was one
Speaker 4: of those was one of the people whose name was
Speaker 4: on that list. And so you know, like we get
Speaker 4: into there, we we came across some of these documents
Speaker 4: in our in our reporting and our research, and you
Speaker 4: begin to see kind of like in close detail how
Speaker 4: these operations worked and how they could undermine someone's ability
Speaker 4: to be effective as a leader. And with with h
Speaker 4: Rap Brown, what they did was they yes, there was surveillance,
Speaker 4: but what ultimately slowed him down was kind of like
Speaker 4: a barrage of charges that were not true, and so
Speaker 4: they pulled him into the court system in a way
Speaker 4: where he suddenly had court dates. He certainly had, you know,
Speaker 4: was in jail for violating bond. He sorta he suddenly
Speaker 4: couldn't move around because of the terms of his release
Speaker 4: and uh, and these charges just accumulated to the to
Speaker 4: the point where he had to step down as the
Speaker 4: leader of the student Non Violent Coordinating Committee. And then
Speaker 4: you know, like so that happens, and in the public's
Speaker 4: mind those charges perhaps could be true. We don't really know,
Speaker 4: but if you look at the long kind of arc
Speaker 4: of time, all those charges are are are thrown out
Speaker 4: for various kindsitutional reasons, and so the question becomes why
Speaker 4: were they brought and there was there some intention or
Speaker 4: purpose behind that, and in this case, it's quite clear
Speaker 4: the answer is yes. And so he's forced underground. This
Speaker 4: all this kind of like legal assault is a strong word,
Speaker 4: but this, all these legal actions eventually culminated in this
Speaker 4: in this car bomb explosion outside of a court court
Speaker 4: hearing where he was supposed to be in attendance. And
Speaker 4: it's pretty widely assumed that that car bomb was an
Speaker 4: assassination attempt against him. Many believed by the FBI, And
Speaker 4: so at that point he has to go underground just
Speaker 4: to protect his life, and his days as an organizer
Speaker 4: are under are pretty much over, or at least they're
Speaker 4: undercover at that point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like eighteen months, Yes, that disappears, so more
Speaker 3: than a year something, he's off the grid, underground. And
Speaker 3: this also what I really appreciate your pointing out here
Speaker 3: is that in the case of co Intel's approach, it's
Speaker 3: pretty clear that they were not under the auspices of
Speaker 3: this program. They were not saying, let's find someone who
Speaker 3: has committed a crime. They were saying, let's find some
Speaker 3: let's find a crime to fit on someone because we
Speaker 3: find them dangerous. So we could make a very clear
Speaker 3: argument is an active series of conspiracies not conspiracy theories.
Speaker 2: Well, it's nuts. If you look at that index, it
Speaker 2: is all of the field offices, all the FBI field
Speaker 2: offices across the contiguous United States, that are keeping tabs
Speaker 2: on anybody that ends up on that list, so like
Speaker 2: any anywhere they go, who they meet with, Like, it's
Speaker 2: it's nuts to see that level of it is surveillance.
Speaker 2: But again, as you're saying, once you get into the
Speaker 2: American prison system through the justice system. You are now
Speaker 2: in that system, and it's so much easier to have
Speaker 2: someone get back in it and stuck in it. And
Speaker 2: I think that's just such a good point, and that
Speaker 2: is where a mom Jamil Alimine finds himself.
Speaker 3: Now we're going to pause here for a word from
Speaker 3: our sponsor and we'll be right back and we've returned.
Speaker 2: I want to talk about this word violence, if you
Speaker 2: don't mind you you have a great exploration in episode
Speaker 2: five on the word violence, how we use it the way,
Speaker 2: like what we apply it to, and how it's actually
Speaker 2: a much more robust word that can apply to other things,
Speaker 2: and how how would you apply it to, let's say,
Speaker 2: the prison system and specifically Alimane's experience.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this exploration started really with this phrase that
Speaker 4: Jamil Elamine is famous for uttering are actually you know,
Speaker 4: he said it when he was still a trap Brown
Speaker 4: and one of his thump speeches, he said violence is
Speaker 4: as American as cherry pie. And what he meant by
Speaker 4: that was that America attained its greatness. America attained its
Speaker 4: position largely through force against human beings, by forcing people
Speaker 4: into labor, by battling people for their land, et cetera.
Speaker 4: Like we know these things, and so as as a
Speaker 4: member of a group of people that was oppressed, he said, okay,
Speaker 4: let us let us also take violence into our hands
Speaker 4: as a means of power. And so that was that's
Speaker 4: kind of one of the things that we're interrogating in
Speaker 4: the show, and that's kind of what led to this
Speaker 4: exploration of the word violence. And so, you know, I
Speaker 4: think at some point I just turned to the Oxford
Speaker 4: English Dictionary and one of the things we came across
Speaker 4: was this you know, old definition of doctor of of
Speaker 4: violence that that had that contained more meaning than it
Speaker 4: does today, and it included, you know, acts against people
Speaker 4: committed by the state, harm committed by the state, against
Speaker 4: the poppy, against the public. And you know, we explored
Speaker 4: that in this episode Cherry Pie and looking at the
Speaker 4: terms of Jamille Ellen means imprisonment, how he was held,
Speaker 4: the degree that they went to take away aspects of
Speaker 4: his humanity, and whether, you know, like to what extent
Speaker 4: the public is comfortable with the government committing these types
Speaker 4: of acts on our behalf, no matter what anyone has
Speaker 4: been convicted of, do we believe that our public representatives
Speaker 4: should inflict that much harm on other people. That's what
Speaker 4: this what this episode asks, and this episode asks are
Speaker 4: we to what degree are we allowing the government to
Speaker 4: commit this type of violence on our behalf?
Speaker 3: And to what degree does the public consider itself accountable
Speaker 3: right in that regard? And I believe it is what
Speaker 3: during incarceration in Attica that that a trap Brown does
Speaker 3: convert to Islam, and what we learn about this conversion
Speaker 3: in the course of Radical and after he after he
Speaker 3: is gone from Attica where he relocates to Atlanta, Georgia. Now,
Speaker 3: I think one very crucial fact here is that he
Speaker 3: is a person who is speaking from firsthand experience on
Speaker 3: multiple levels about things. Maybe kids in the West End
Speaker 3: and have like no growing up and now they're able
Speaker 3: to speak with someone who is a community leader who
Speaker 3: was saying, yes, this is real. These conspiracies and problems exist,
Speaker 3: there are solutions, and I can help navigate. I can
Speaker 3: help provide those solutions. We have in Radical extensive interviews
Speaker 3: with members of the community during this time, and a
Speaker 3: lot of those interviews, or a lot of the substance
Speaker 3: of those conversations has never made it to the air before,
Speaker 3: so I'd love to ask, when you are speaking with
Speaker 3: folks who have first experience with the.
Speaker 6: Mom who have grown up in these times, was there
Speaker 6: anything people said, or any commonality or even just any
Speaker 6: singular statement that really stood out to you and stuck
Speaker 6: with you.
Speaker 4: And why I think it was? It wasn't was an
Speaker 4: idea of you could call it brotherhood or sisterhood or
Speaker 4: whatever word contains contains both of those things. There were
Speaker 4: people community, There were people who felt that they could
Speaker 4: lean on each other and that they loved each other
Speaker 4: and that they would be there for each other to
Speaker 4: kind of navigate the difficulties of the world. And they
Speaker 4: and it was really kind of this, this this nice
Speaker 4: thing where they said, Okay, the world may not be
Speaker 4: organized to to lift us up, but we're going to
Speaker 4: lift each other up. And and people remember that time
Speaker 4: quite fondly. The people who I spoke to, uh, you know,
Speaker 4: and in doing this they were doing they were they
Speaker 4: had a lot of moories that were that we could
Speaker 4: not consider normal and that I you know, they wouldn't
Speaker 4: that I wouldn't want to engage in. But there they
Speaker 4: were doing this luntarily, you know, like the the managermil
Speaker 4: had a lot of control over that neighborhood. You know,
Speaker 4: they were essentially living under his very close leadership. It
Speaker 4: wasn't like everybody would want to live under those circumstances.
Speaker 4: So you did have to give up some type You
Speaker 4: have to give up a little bit of personal liberty
Speaker 4: to be in this little utopia. And so I can't
Speaker 4: say that that's for everybody. And also over the course
Speaker 4: of time that sheen, that good feeling did start to diminish.
Speaker 4: Like you know, things are always changing, and they changed
Speaker 4: in ways that weren't necessarily for the best. And we
Speaker 4: explore that in the show.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about Rodney and as you're like driving around
Speaker 2: with Rodney and just exploring the neighborhood again, and he's
Speaker 2: telling you all these stories of the violence that he
Speaker 2: experienced on just a regular basis. And I'm Alosto imagining
Speaker 2: a perimeter around the mage the or like the area
Speaker 2: right there was more more or less controlled by the Imam.
Speaker 2: I'd like that it felt like there was such violence
Speaker 2: that existed right outside the door. And speaking of just
Speaker 2: I'm thinking back when you were when you attended uh
Speaker 2: that summer camp, right, I have a very limited experience,
Speaker 2: but I've been to a lot of churches, most of
Speaker 2: them suburban, middle class churches. I've never been to a
Speaker 2: church that has a security detail, and it makes me
Speaker 2: think about, you know, what was going on there. What
Speaker 2: did you learn about like the security detail.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a there's a backstory to it. The West
Speaker 4: End was a pretty dangerous place before Ama Jamil got there.
Speaker 4: It was known as there are a lot of drug
Speaker 4: corners where people were buying and selling and using. And
Speaker 4: those drug corners were pretty lucrative, and so they were
Speaker 4: defended with violence. And so Jamil Elamine and the people
Speaker 4: around him come in and start to turn that around.
Speaker 4: They established this this mass jid, which is actually in
Speaker 4: a house in the neighborhood, which is you know, you know,
Speaker 4: like a grid of criss crossing streets, and so people
Speaker 4: and he establishes five prayers there, and so people are
Speaker 4: walking from their homes to this mass jed or house
Speaker 4: in the neighborhood to pray. And on those walks people
Speaker 4: wanted to feel safe. Some of you know, the five prayers,
Speaker 4: the first prayer is right before sunset, the last prayer
Speaker 4: is after sunset, So some of those prayers are in
Speaker 4: the dark, and people wanted to feel safe, and so
Speaker 4: what they established was this security patrol that would make
Speaker 4: sure that people walking back and forth the mass Jid
Speaker 4: would not be harmed. The people on this team were
Speaker 4: armed and there were It was understood in the neighborhood
Speaker 4: that if you violated the the safety of anybody who
Speaker 4: was who was going to pray that they're consequences.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: There there are emerged questions over the years about the
Speaker 4: extent of those consequences, and we explore that in the show.
Speaker 4: It's unquestionable. You can't question that some people lost their
Speaker 4: lives and around the West End who were drug dealers.
Speaker 4: You can't really quibble with a life that's lost. It's
Speaker 4: if someone's gone, they're gone. And so you know how
Speaker 4: those people came to lose their lives is something that
Speaker 4: we explore on the show. Is part of the legacy
Speaker 4: of this neighborhood.
Speaker 3: And this again may feel somewhat familiar to a lot
Speaker 3: of us tuning in today who have lived in communities
Speaker 3: where where someone makes this argument that says, look, the
Speaker 3: people who are quote unquote supposed to be providing safety
Speaker 3: are in fact not doing that. Therefore, we will we
Speaker 3: will together lift ourselves up and provide that sort of
Speaker 3: safety without all the you know, the due process, the
Speaker 3: red tape and so on. At least is how it's
Speaker 3: put theoretically. And for folks who have never been involved
Speaker 3: in that sort of interaction in a community, that may
Speaker 3: sound that may sound strange, right, that may sound anomalous,
Speaker 3: But I believe it is important for people to remember
Speaker 3: this high this situation can occur.
Speaker 1: It is not a.
Speaker 3: It's not a one off thing in the American discourse.
Speaker 2: Well, I guess the question is, was the that security
Speaker 2: force that was there that existed, It feels to me
Speaker 2: like a defensive posture, a means of protection, right. I
Speaker 2: wonder did you find anything where maybe potentially that security
Speaker 2: force was used more as an offensive thing, or maybe
Speaker 2: there's a sect within it that was was was that
Speaker 2: saw itself as a way to crack down on some
Speaker 2: of the drug dealing and people that they viewed as undesirable.
Speaker 3: Perhaps proactively.
Speaker 4: Uh, yes, definitely, And uh, you know we're getting we're
Speaker 4: getting the spoiler material here. But here's the thing that
Speaker 4: I learned in looking at this story.
Speaker 3: If you have a.
Speaker 4: Particular approach, let's say, your approach to dealing with the
Speaker 4: trouble in neighborhood is to arm a bunch of guys
Speaker 4: and and uh, you know, give them relatively free reign
Speaker 4: to keep things safe.
Speaker 7: That can work for a little while, maybe for a
Speaker 7: long time, but it becomes difficult to control as people
Speaker 7: get a taste for that type of power and and uh.
Speaker 4: It just becomes difficult to control.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 4: It tastes for that to power and also that type
Speaker 4: of money in some cases now and I say that
Speaker 4: because of this, they were protecting their community from drug dealers.
Speaker 4: And one of the things that that we hear is
Speaker 4: it in the beginning, they would they would sometimes you know,
Speaker 4: come across these guys and they would confiscate their their
Speaker 4: drugs or whatever, or or maybe they would take the
Speaker 4: they would confiscate this money. And then at some point,
Speaker 4: and in the beginning they were flushing the drugs down
Speaker 4: the toilet, they were getting rid of the drugs. At
Speaker 4: some point it becomes well, this is actually money they
Speaker 4: were flushing down the toilet. What do we do this?
Speaker 4: And then and then the kind of slow corruption process
Speaker 4: starts of of of you know, kind of becoming something
Speaker 4: that is different than your initial ideals. And that definitely
Speaker 4: definitely happened in the West End, like no question.
Speaker 2: But no spoilers. Do you listen to episode seven and
Speaker 2: eight though, if you're interested in this line?
Speaker 3: Uh yes. By the way, we also knew that for
Speaker 3: everybody to need and as we are recording, the final
Speaker 3: episode has yet to release, so I can't speak for everybody,
Speaker 3: but I am. I am on the ride as well.
Speaker 3: I don't I don't know how the how we conclude yet, but.
Speaker 2: When you hear this episode eight will be will be
Speaker 2: available on Tenderfoot Plus Early. You'll have to wait another
Speaker 2: week until it comes on.
Speaker 3: Hey and full disclosure, I also uh subscribed for early
Speaker 3: access to make sure that I could be as up
Speaker 3: to date as possible.
Speaker 2: And with that, let's take a quick break here word
Speaker 2: from the sponsor and return with most secret and we're back.
Speaker 3: There's another turn here, and this is not I would
Speaker 3: argue this is not a spoiler because this is sort
Speaker 3: of our our next a culmination of some of these
Speaker 3: factors right of this growing stuff describing the idea of
Speaker 3: agency leading to Mission Creep, the idea of self empowerment
Speaker 3: becoming an opportunity in some ways for other behaviors we
Speaker 3: know that during during his time in Atlanta as a
Speaker 3: community leader, the mom was was in situations with law enforcement.
Speaker 3: I'm thinking of I'm thinking of nineteen ninety nine when
Speaker 3: it was pulled over in Marrietta, Georgia, Right, that that
Speaker 3: was one of those It was one of those situations
Speaker 3: where I think he ultimately gets charged with impersonating a
Speaker 3: police officer even though he has an honorary badge and
Speaker 3: the literal mayorrit is like, yeah, I gave it to him.
Speaker 3: So we see, what we could argue with a lot
Speaker 3: of sand is a series of persecution, right, a series
Speaker 3: of actions that are persecuting this person, the storied activist,
Speaker 3: at the same time that he is building this powerful
Speaker 3: community in the West End. Could you could you walk
Speaker 3: us through, just in broad strokes, what the official narrative
Speaker 3: is of the March sixteenth, two thousand incident that ultimately
Speaker 3: led to his arresting conviction.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can walk you through, and we can, and
Speaker 4: we can start with this with this arrest and cop counting. So,
Speaker 4: as you mentioned, he was he was pulled over and
Speaker 4: arrested by some by some cops up there, and you know,
Speaker 4: he eventually was charged as a result of that stop
Speaker 4: with driving a stolen car and impersonating a police officer
Speaker 4: and then person being a police officer. Part is because
Speaker 4: when the cops stopped him, he a ma'am Jamil showed
Speaker 4: this guy a badge and we don't really know what
Speaker 4: the conversation was, but it seemed there was some type
Speaker 4: of We think that it's because he wanted to let
Speaker 4: this officer know that he was like a legit person
Speaker 4: in the and who didn't kind of deserve any mistreatment.
Speaker 4: But whatever. He was charged with impersonating a police officer
Speaker 4: and driving a stolen vehicle. The car was stolen, and
Speaker 4: so that initiates some some court hearings for various reasons.
Speaker 4: A man Jamil did not show up for those court
Speaker 4: hearings and a warrant was issued for his arrest. This
Speaker 4: is months before the shooting. So there are sheriff's deputies
Speaker 4: in Fulton Counties who are Fulton County who were trying
Speaker 4: to serve this warrant over a period of time. They're
Speaker 4: trying to arrest him and bring him in for this
Speaker 4: charge out in the suburbs, and that's what was happening
Speaker 4: the night of March sixteen, two thousand two Sheriff's deputies
Speaker 4: were going around the spots in the West End that
Speaker 4: a man Jimial was known to frequent trying to serve
Speaker 4: this bench warrant for failure to appear in this court case.
Speaker 4: The cops come to the neighborhood looking for a mammal.
Speaker 4: They don't find them and they leave. They're in a
Speaker 4: in a marked car, a Crown Victoria, and they're driving away.
Speaker 4: There's like a small street there that goes away from
Speaker 4: Weston Park. They're driving away. In their rear view mirror,
Speaker 4: they see a car pull up in front of a
Speaker 4: man Jamil store. So they turn the car around, turn
Speaker 4: around their squad car to see what who was in
Speaker 4: this car that pulled up. So the squad car comes
Speaker 4: back down the street and the and the car pulled
Speaker 4: up in front of the store is parked on the street.
Speaker 4: It's a black Mercedes. So eventually the squad car in
Speaker 4: the black Mercedes are nose to nose and there's like
Speaker 4: a you know, you see that, you see the you
Speaker 4: see a confrontation ing here. So the cops get out
Speaker 4: of the car, you know, one on each side of
Speaker 4: the car, and and the man in the Mercedes gets
Speaker 4: out of the car. Uh. The cops notice that they
Speaker 4: cannot see the man's hands, the man who's gotten out
Speaker 4: of the Mercedes, and they ask him to show his hands.
Speaker 4: The cops say that the person uh says something that's
Speaker 4: the effect of of hey, and then pulls a long
Speaker 4: rifle out of some type of long garment and starts
Speaker 4: shooting at them. Both cops are hit. One of them
Speaker 4: runs to a field near the mass did and and
Speaker 4: UH waits there. Another one of them is killed right
Speaker 4: there in front of the car. And so this is
Speaker 4: the this is the the shooting and the crime that
Speaker 4: eventually leads investigators eventually UH charge a man Jimmial with
Speaker 4: you know, after that shooting, he did, he fled. He
Speaker 4: fled to Alabama to the very location where he had
Speaker 4: been organizing as as an activist in his young life.
Speaker 4: A federal law enforcement eventually found him there and the Mercedes,
Speaker 4: which was riddled with bullet holes, and he was charged
Speaker 4: and convicted of this crime.
Speaker 2: Just knowing that the Mercedes was there at his location
Speaker 2: where he fled and it did have bullet holes in
Speaker 2: it is one of those things that you just you
Speaker 2: hear that and you think, oh, Okay, well, then that's
Speaker 2: obviously what happened. But it's so much more complicated than that, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, and especially as you continue exploring the story,
Speaker 2: you continue, you know, you kind of look, you take
Speaker 2: a really hard look at the witness statements from the
Speaker 2: surviving deputy. There's some really there's a really interesting piece
Speaker 2: in here about the man's eyes. I can't remember which
Speaker 2: episode that is, but just specifically this officer who was
Speaker 2: shot who says, I looked directly into the man's eyes
Speaker 2: you shot me, and like gets if it is allaman's eyes.
Speaker 2: The eye colors.
Speaker 3: Wrong, so you're gray eyes.
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's so many inconsistencies like that that make you,
Speaker 2: again as a listeners, you're as you're going through this,
Speaker 2: make you question things. Was there any point where you
Speaker 2: begin to really question the story and feel like you
Speaker 2: didn't have a grasp on what occurred, especially when you
Speaker 2: encounter somebody like Otis Jackson who has a completely different
Speaker 2: version of the story.
Speaker 4: I mean, there were many points where I thought I
Speaker 4: didn't have a grasp of the story. We're dealing with
Speaker 4: events that happened twenty plus years ago, in addition to
Speaker 4: dealing with a lot of secrets, you know, both FBI
Speaker 4: secrets and secrets from the Muslims in the West End,
Speaker 4: and so these types of things you kind of wonder
Speaker 4: in the beginning if you're going to even get to
Speaker 4: the to the bottom of them. And there were many
Speaker 4: moments when I thought that I that I that I
Speaker 4: could never really figure out what happened. Like you just
Speaker 4: kind of come to a point where you know, someone
Speaker 4: says one thing, someone else says another thing, and you
Speaker 4: you don't really have the means at your disposal to
Speaker 4: figure out which is which. But we do draw conclusion
Speaker 4: in the show, and uh, you know, to my surprise
Speaker 4: actually and to my satisfaction, I think I know what happened,
Speaker 4: But I don't know if that's going to beat everyone
Speaker 4: else's satisfaction. We'll have to see. But yeah, eventually things
Speaker 4: kind of came into focus in a way that that
Speaker 4: made sense for me.
Speaker 2: Mm well, And just to be clear, this person that
Speaker 2: we're speaking of, Otis Jackson, had a whole other story
Speaker 2: where he was, in fact the one who you know
Speaker 2: shot the sheriff's deputies on that night in two thousand
Speaker 2: and you can Yeah, it's.
Speaker 3: Just really Otis.
Speaker 4: You asked me about Otis. So, yeah, so Otis is
Speaker 4: someone who confessed to this crime pretty soon after it happened.
Speaker 4: He was a known person around the time of the
Speaker 4: trial in two thousand and two, prosecution and defense and
Speaker 4: who over the years has maintained that he's the one
Speaker 4: who did it. And so you hear something like that
Speaker 4: and uh, and you he was not coerced in at
Speaker 4: least it doesn't appear coercon to him making this confession,
Speaker 4: and so you have to take it seriously, and we did,
Speaker 4: and we talked to him. Johnny talked to him, My
Speaker 4: producer talked to him. And you get any of these things,
Speaker 4: and you realize that even something like a confession that
Speaker 4: was not coerced can be actually quite complicated. And that's
Speaker 4: what we find, you know, in conversation with Otis, And
Speaker 4: it does what we thought was kind of be a
Speaker 4: clear kind of direction towards the truth actually was a misdirection.
Speaker 4: And it was definitely one of those moments where where
Speaker 4: I thought I didn't know which way, I didn't know
Speaker 4: which way was right, you know, like in the in
Speaker 4: my early days of reporting on the story, I remember
Speaker 4: the first time I read some of the stuff from Otis.
Speaker 4: I was like, whoa, this guy definitely did it. And
Speaker 4: then other points I was like, well, this guy is
Speaker 4: lying so and it and it and it. Uh yeah,
Speaker 4: we go. You have to see which way we landed
Speaker 4: on that on that one, but it was complicated mm hmm.
Speaker 3: And and I do want to I do want to
Speaker 3: point out to one thing that, uh, I find quite
Speaker 3: impressive is that in this investigation, there is there's this beautiful,
Speaker 3: like Jedi like objectivity to uh to asking the people
Speaker 3: with the conflicting narratives. You know, let's let's talk to
Speaker 3: prosecutors involved in this, let's talk to you know, let's
Speaker 3: talk to Otis Jackson, Let's learn all sides of this story.
Speaker 3: And I just want to say I mentally appreciate that
Speaker 3: point of sort of way leading on to waigh. You know,
Speaker 3: because we want to build our we want to build
Speaker 3: our bricks of logic, right are if thens need to
Speaker 3: be solid? And it seems like several times we as
Speaker 3: the audience listening to this are experiencing the same thing.
Speaker 3: We're like, well, this is definitely oh but wait oh wait,
Speaker 3: but then what does that also mean? Which I find compelling.
Speaker 3: I find also it is it brings us to it
Speaker 3: brings us to the fact that this is not an
Speaker 3: historical case and historical footnote by any means. We know
Speaker 3: the mom is. I believe the mom is currently incarcerated
Speaker 3: and has I think, gosh, just a few years ago,
Speaker 3: had an appeal that made it all the way to
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court. Is that correct?
Speaker 4: I don't think that they got certification on the case.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, but they went the Supreme Court did decline
Speaker 3: it is.
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure the Supreme Court declined it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. Well, how for people listening now in the
Speaker 3: case of in the case of this current incarceration, could
Speaker 3: you tell us a little bit about how the West
Speaker 3: End community is thinking through this, how they are experiencing,
Speaker 3: how they are experiencing the case, and is there any
Speaker 3: active movement to perhaps have him released from incarceration.
Speaker 4: So the folks in the West End, there are people
Speaker 4: who are still organizing, you know, who are still making
Speaker 4: a campaign to have him released. They are at this point,
Speaker 4: all of the almost all of the legal options for
Speaker 4: a man Jamil have been exhausted. All the appeals have
Speaker 4: been exhausted, all the habeas petitions have been exhausted. His
Speaker 4: last remaining hope is a division of the Fulton County
Speaker 4: DA's office called the Conviction Integrity Unit, which reviews possible
Speaker 4: instances of wrongful conviction. And so the people in the
Speaker 4: community are essentially mounting a public campaign to get certain
Speaker 4: evidence considered by this unit of the DA's office. And
Speaker 4: so there are people there who are still very much
Speaker 4: behind a Maam Jamil. But you know, in this podcast,
Speaker 4: we don't explore their feelings that much because they didn't
Speaker 4: want to talk. A man Jamil and his one of
Speaker 4: his sons still have pretty strong degree of control about
Speaker 4: control over how this community behaves, and we you know,
Speaker 4: we weren't allowed to talk to them on the record.
Speaker 4: So the stuff that I know about, you know, how
Speaker 4: things are playing in the community, that that's kind of
Speaker 4: like secondhand in scull Butt, you know, so we weren't
Speaker 4: able to get anything from them directly. We do have
Speaker 4: a guy in the show. His name is Balal Suni Ali.
Speaker 4: He is he is a Mam gmials. I forgot the
Speaker 4: exact term that he used, but he is essentially the
Speaker 4: person who was leading up on the non legal side,
Speaker 4: who's not a lawyer, the person who's leading up the
Speaker 4: campaign for mam Gmial's freedom, and he did talk to us,
Speaker 4: but kind of like beyond him, we don't really have
Speaker 4: that much of a sense of how things are playing
Speaker 4: other than you know, like things that are posted on
Speaker 4: social media.
Speaker 2: It makes me think about the influence and maybe loyalty. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the influence that Alamine had had and has within the community,
Speaker 2: the perhaps a loyalty to him that some people feel.
Speaker 2: And it again takes me. It's weird, man, I keep
Speaker 2: going back to that security detail. I think it's because
Speaker 2: I'm fresh off listening to episode seven, but it's I
Speaker 2: want to talk about this person, Shaheed, but I don't
Speaker 2: want to give too many spoilers. There's an individual that
Speaker 2: you find, I think via I don't know exactly how
Speaker 2: you come across him. But there's another document at play
Speaker 2: here called the Synopsis of West End Homicides that just
Speaker 2: looks at specific individuals who were killed in the West
Speaker 2: End neighborhood over a certain period of time there and
Speaker 2: in a lot of those individual murders, there are people
Speaker 2: who are suspected to maybe have played a part, but
Speaker 2: often it's like there's no evidence linked to this individual
Speaker 2: murder case. So this homicide, right and just I don't
Speaker 2: want to say the police are not investigating each one
Speaker 2: of those individual cases, you know, with full veracity, because
Speaker 2: I'm sure they are. It's just it does seem like
Speaker 2: not a lot of attention gets paid to the drug
Speaker 2: dealers that got shot on the corner versus the deputies
Speaker 2: that were shot right by their car, And I just
Speaker 2: I just wonder if it makes you wonder about the
Speaker 2: big picture of this show, and like if are there
Speaker 2: have you found any big picture answers in your exploration
Speaker 2: to something like a big question like how do I,
Speaker 2: as an individual or a leader enact change within an
Speaker 2: oppressive system that views me as an enemy? Do you
Speaker 2: think there's any at least partial answers to that question
Speaker 2: that you found?
Speaker 3: Or why can people take from the show?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I found those answers for my self,
Speaker 4: and I give those answers for myself in the show,
Speaker 4: but I hesitate to tell other people what the answer
Speaker 4: should be for them, and that's how I frame it.
Speaker 4: One of the themes in the show is kind of
Speaker 4: this man. Jimil was this person who was very hard
Speaker 4: to define because he meant different things to different people.
Speaker 4: He to federal law enforcement, he was this villain who
Speaker 4: they pursued, but a lot of the things that they
Speaker 4: based this assessment of him on were either imagined or
Speaker 4: not necessarily true, or someone was spinning them, or like
Speaker 4: various types of things. Other people gave him this kind
Speaker 4: of like heroic sheene. But when you kind of break
Speaker 4: that down, he was doing stuff in the community that
Speaker 4: is questionable, and he was leading them in ways that
Speaker 4: were questionable. The story that was around him still has
Speaker 4: this He's still held up in this way that is
Speaker 4: impactful in people's lives. And you know, what we were
Speaker 4: dealing with. Essentially, we determined were stories and the power
Speaker 4: of stories on both sides, and the power of stories
Speaker 4: for people who are trying to shift narratives about their
Speaker 4: communities and shift narratives about what their governments and their
Speaker 4: leaders are capable of. And as a storyteller and working
Speaker 4: with this kind of like shifty material, that's kind of
Speaker 4: what I decided to play with in the end, and
Speaker 4: that's what that's what the what we do in episode eight.
Speaker 3: And as as we noted, as you are hearing this today, folks,
Speaker 3: the almost the entirety of Radical is out now. Do
Speaker 3: check it out please. As as we said, we have
Speaker 3: a mense appreciation not just as just as residents of Atlanta,
Speaker 3: but as as fans of investigative journalism. We have a
Speaker 3: mense appreciation for your work here. And one one of
Speaker 3: the big questions that I never want us to miss
Speaker 3: when we talk with journalists of your caliber is where
Speaker 3: people can find more of your work, not just related
Speaker 3: to radical but your your work with pro Publica and
Speaker 3: et cetera and so on times the time. Oh also,
Speaker 3: I've got we've got to give the flowers here. I
Speaker 3: didn't mention at the beginning, but everyone mostly is an
Speaker 3: award winning journalist. By the way. Didn't want to embarrass
Speaker 3: you on that one.
Speaker 4: Yes, okay, I will take this opportunity to say that
Speaker 4: I was working with a great journalist on this, Johnny Kaufman,
Speaker 4: who I always want to you know, highlight, because this
Speaker 4: was as much Johnny as it was me. As you
Speaker 4: guys know, we have a producer, you know how these
Speaker 4: things work, like, we were doing this thing as a team,
Speaker 4: and my work is on my website Mostsecret dot com,
Speaker 4: which I need to update and refresh. If you have
Speaker 4: a website, you know how that goes broils on this stuff.
Speaker 4: Is still there, so that's a good place. And uh yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, my name is kind of weird, so if
Speaker 4: you google my name, a lot of stuff will come up.
Speaker 3: To Again, we cannot thank you enough for your time
Speaker 3: here today. Thank you, bitch. As for our filow conspiracy realists,
Speaker 3: please do tune in the show available today wherever you
Speaker 3: find your favorite podcast. What a fantastic show, you know, Matt,
Speaker 3: we were so lucky to have Mossey on for this conversation.
Speaker 3: I've got say, I'm sure you felt the same way
Speaker 3: as longtime residents of Atlanta. A lot of this was
Speaker 3: was quite familiar.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, very very familiar. One of the
Speaker 2: most interesting things you can listen to is a bonus
Speaker 2: episode where Mossy and Johnny Kaufman, the two producers and
Speaker 2: writers of the show, get together and just talk about
Speaker 2: finding documents, you know, doing those freedom of information requests
Speaker 2: and just sifting through the stuff, just so many things.
Speaker 2: Because you're talking about a person h Trap Brown that
Speaker 2: goes back to the nineteen sixties right where there are
Speaker 2: real FBI files. We're not joking about these FBI files,
Speaker 2: so many on this individual, and just holding that in
Speaker 2: your mind and applying that person that they're the way
Speaker 2: that government sees that person applying it to this person
Speaker 2: who's now in em maam in Atlanta, and like, how
Speaker 2: does that influence everything that's getting thrown at him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we didn't get to the Cambridge riots. We didn't.
Speaker 3: There's so much stuff we didn't get to, but Moussey
Speaker 3: and his team get to a lot of it. If
Speaker 3: you'd like to learn more about Cohen Tulpro, please check
Speaker 3: out our earlier existing episodes on proven Conspiracies on the
Speaker 3: part of the Alphabet.
Speaker 2: Dude, and I'm not kidding, go back and listen to
Speaker 2: the MLK tapes show as well, because there's some weird
Speaker 2: parallels there with the same individuals in charge, like in
Speaker 2: the FBI and just in the mechanisms that are applied
Speaker 2: to both of these stories. Really fascinating stuff.
Speaker 3: And thank you as always for tuning in. Fellow conspiracy realist.
Speaker 3: We would love to hear your take on this exploration.
Speaker 3: We'd also love to hear your thoughts on other cases
Speaker 3: that may have have triggered some similarities for you when
Speaker 3: you hear this, because as I had mentioned earlier, the
Speaker 3: thing that might escape a lot of people is that
Speaker 3: these are not necessarily one offs. These are not necessarily
Speaker 3: things that exist in a vacuum. So let us know.
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