1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: production of Iheartrading. 5 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt Our. 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 3: Colleague Nola's on Adventures will be returning soon. They call 7 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 3: b Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer, 8 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 3: Paull Michigan Control Decant. Most importantly, you are you, You 9 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 3: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 10 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 3: want you to know. On March sixteenth, two thousand, two 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 3: police officers were shot in Atlanta's West End. This is 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 3: one of the oldest neighborhoods in the city with many 13 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: stories behind it. One of these officers passed away as 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 3: a result of this interaction, and the other claimed the 15 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 3: shooter was one Emm Jamil Abdullah al Amin, the leader 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 3: of a local mosque and in other times. This man 17 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 3: was formerly known as h Rap Brown, leader of the 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 3: Black Power movement, an honorary officer of the Black Panther Party. 19 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 3: He was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. But 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 3: was he guilty or was this conviction somehow retribution for 21 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 3: his activism. The new podcast Radical Investigates interrogates these questions 22 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 3: and events in a deep dive never experienced before, with 23 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 3: the investigative journalist Mosey Secret, who dives through exclusive interviews, 24 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 3: government records, countless sources to get to the bottom of 25 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 3: the questions inherent in this case. And we are immensely 26 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 3: fortunate to be joined with him today to learn more 27 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 3: about this story. Mister Secret, thank you so much for 28 00:01:58,760 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 3: coming onto the show. 29 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 4: You're welcome. 30 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 5: Please call me mostly, I do it watch sorry, mostly, 31 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 5: It's really good to see you. 32 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 4: Man. 33 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 2: Just for everyone's knowledge, I serve as an executive producer 34 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: on this show Radical. It's made with Tenderfoot TV. As 35 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 2: many of you know, I make shows with that team, 36 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 2: and I'm just really proud of the work that's already 37 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: gone into the show. We are coming up right now 38 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: on the final episode. Episode eight is coming out very soon, 39 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: and we just couldn't wait to pick your brain on 40 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff that you've found. I think 41 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: maybe a good way into this is mostly how did 42 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: you come across this story? Initially? 43 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 4: Well, there are kind of two answers to that question, 44 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 4: you know. So I'm from Atlanta and I grew up 45 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 4: fairly close to the Muslim community. My family converted to 46 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 4: Islam when I was a kid. So because he's a 47 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 4: community of African American Wislims to Atlanta isn't that large. 48 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 4: I was familiar with a man, Jamie Alamine, in his community, 49 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 4: and I was also familiar with this case when it happened. 50 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 4: But as you said, you know, that was twenty years ago, 51 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 4: and it's not something that has really occupied my mind 52 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 4: in the kind of intervening years between the shooting and 53 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 4: the production of this podcast. A year or two ago, 54 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 4: I was quite randomly introduced to a podcast producer who 55 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 4: had already started looking into this case. Again. He had 56 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 4: done extensive his name's Johnny Kaufman. He had done extensive 57 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 4: public records requests, pulled court documents, and was really kind 58 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 4: of pointing to some questions in this case. And you know, 59 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:53,839 Speaker 4: when he told me about this, you know, all these 60 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 4: things kind of came back to me from my childhood 61 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 4: and I thought, well, you know, I would love to 62 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 4: this with you. And it just so happened that he 63 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 4: was looking for a host and a reporter. And then 64 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 4: you know, like when I left Atlanta, I went off 65 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 4: to be a reporter, So it just kind of felt 66 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 4: like it was one of these stories that was made 67 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 4: for me. 68 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: Man. And just if you do live in the Atlanta area, 69 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: you probably know Johnny's voice from his work with WABE. 70 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 2: If you ever listened to the NPR stations in town. 71 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 2: That's that's how I recognized his voice. From the first time. 72 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: I was like, well, I know this guy. 73 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:32,239 Speaker 3: And what synchronicity there must be in that moment, because 74 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 3: you know, hearing, as you said, quite randomly hear this 75 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 3: story and you, as any member of that community during 76 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 3: your childhood, you will automatically know the people that are 77 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 3: being referenced here. There's something that really sticks out in 78 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 3: in part of this exploration. Could you tell us a 79 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 3: little bit about this summer camp you attended in childhood 80 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 3: and how that I just think that's such a fantastic 81 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 3: way in to the a mom in this community. 82 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, So, my family converted to Islam from kind of 83 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 4: different evangelical faiths actually when I was twelve or thirteen 84 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 4: years old, and a Mam Jamil Elamin's community is one 85 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 4: of the first that they came into contact with, and 86 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 4: I think that there was a period, you know, when 87 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 4: they were still kind of finding their footing, trying to 88 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 4: figure out how to you know, get their children to 89 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 4: understand this new faith or whatever. And somehow my parents 90 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 4: learned about this week long camp that a Ma'am Jamil 91 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 4: convened in the North Georgia Woods. And so, you know, 92 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 4: just to kind of give you a sense of what 93 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 4: kind of kid I was, I was, like, you know, 94 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 4: this would have been when I was twelve or thirty teen. 95 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 4: I think that I was like, you know, kind of 96 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 4: chubby into books, you know, like uh, riding my back 97 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 4: around the neighborhood, hadn't really been anywhere without my parents. 98 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 4: Let's just say that I was sheltered. And so this 99 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 4: camp for me was was quite intense. You know. It 100 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 4: was from this kind of being taken from this kind 101 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 4: of sheltered, you know, middle class existence into a fairly 102 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 4: kind of intense Black revolutionary ideology and setting. And also 103 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 4: and also you know religious, you know, like extremely religious settings. 104 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 4: And so there was you know a lot of emphasis 105 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 4: emphasis on making the five prayers a day, which at 106 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 4: that time I probably didn't even really know how to make, 107 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 4: or I was learning, and there was you know, physical 108 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 4: fitness and self defense, and I was kind of thrust 109 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 4: into this environment with these kids from the West End, 110 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 4: that man Jamil's neighborhood, who I didn't really know. And 111 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 4: these were kids who were they were pretty, they were 112 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 4: like rough around the edges. They were into stuff I 113 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 4: wasn't into. They were they liked to fight, you know, 114 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 4: they liked to cuss, they liked to you know, it 115 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 4: was just like a It was an immersion into a 116 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 4: world that I wasn't quite familiar with. And you know, 117 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 4: as I became older, I began to connect a lot 118 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 4: of what I experienced in just that one week with 119 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 4: what that community was. You know, a man Jamil attracted 120 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 4: people who were down on their luck, who were returning 121 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 4: home from prison, who were anti establishment for one reason 122 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 4: or another, and gave them reason to believe in themselves 123 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 4: and gave them, you know, a cause that they could 124 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 4: organize their lives around. And so that meant that a 125 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 4: lot of the people were, you know, like I said, 126 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 4: kind of rough around the edges, but they placed so 127 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 4: much faith in him as a leader and to kind 128 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 4: of organize and redeem their lives, you know, including sending 129 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 4: their children away to be to be groomed by him. 130 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 4: So it is a nice little kind of encapsulation of 131 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 4: what he represented for folks. 132 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: What I'm hearing is that he was he held a 133 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: tremendous amount of influence in that community at the time 134 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: with is that correct? 135 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 4: Definitely, I mean influence over even the intimate details of 136 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 4: family life. You know, he would help them arbitrate internal disputes. 137 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 4: So it was, it was he was considered a leader, 138 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 4: both a spiritual leader, but also you know, kind of 139 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 4: helped help them, help them organize their lives. 140 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 3: And he had a bit of a He also had 141 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 3: a secular community building area too with the with the 142 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 3: grocery store, right which as you you paint the scene 143 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 3: so beautifully, right, it's just across from the what's what's 144 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 3: the correct Arabic word for mossul masjed. Yeah. So it's 145 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 3: seems that this this community leader becomes in some ways 146 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: an answer for people who are who are searching for, 147 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 3: you know, community stability in a way that might not 148 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 3: have been available previously in this As we know, this 149 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 3: is something that happens often in the United States in 150 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 3: one degree or another, because law enforcement so often fails 151 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:35,719 Speaker 3: right and and commits horrific acts. With with this background, 152 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:41,839 Speaker 3: we see already a bit of like whitman esque multitudes 153 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: in one man, because he is he is the he 154 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 3: is the leader, He is a beacon for people in 155 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 3: the Western community. Yet it seems that the local law, 156 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 3: the APD, and and other other authorities don't see him 157 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 3: in that way. Could you tell us a little bit 158 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 3: about how authorities had regarded the amount before he even 159 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 3: arrived in Atlanta. 160 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, so, ma'am. Jimil arrived in Atlanta in the late seventies. 161 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 4: Prior to that, he had been a nationally known figure 162 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 4: in the Black Car movement named a Trapp Brown. A 163 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 4: trap Brown grew up in Louisiana and Baton Rouge, Louisiana 164 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 4: and there suffered, you know, racial violent and oppression under 165 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 4: Jim Crow. As a young man, he kind of gravitates 166 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 4: towards the movement and towards organizing, and eventually he ends 167 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 4: up in the Black Belt of Alabama helping citizens there 168 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 4: organized to register it to vote, and also just helping 169 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 4: them to develop their own leaders and push back against 170 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 4: the oppression that they were feeling there. He becomes known 171 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 4: as someone who is courageous and fearless and rash, so, 172 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 4: you know, like he was doing this work with the 173 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 4: Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee, which was the one of 174 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 4: the main activist organizations at the time, and they were 175 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 4: organized around principles of nonviolence. But when you were with 176 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 4: these folks out in the countryside, who were, you know, 177 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,599 Speaker 4: miles away from any help and often could suffer the 178 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 4: whims of any type of local sheriff. They often had 179 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 4: rifles whatever by their door side to protect themselves because 180 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 4: it was going to be a long time before law 181 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 4: enforcement came to help them. And so h Rep. Brown 182 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 4: goes into these communities and there is this non violent 183 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 4: ideology that he's working with, but there was also this 184 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 4: He's also telling people to defend themselves. He's also telling people, 185 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 4: you know, this is how you use your gun, this 186 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 4: is how you take these people on. And so he 187 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 4: people who have been really beaten down he started to 188 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 4: build back up, and it was around this rhetoric of 189 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 4: self defense. Now you imagine a person like that becomes 190 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 4: a bad guy in the eye of law, in the 191 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 4: eyes of law enforcement, and he refused to back down 192 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 4: in any confrontation with law enforcement. And so he develops 193 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 4: this reputation over a period of years as someone who 194 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 4: was against the police, and he did hate the police, 195 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 4: and so this, you know, this relationship basically became worse 196 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 4: and worse, and you know, by the time he was 197 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 4: in his late twenties, he seemed on the FBI Most 198 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 4: Warned List for some charges that were trumped up in 199 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 4: various ways. But this but he developed this reputation as 200 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 4: someone who really hated law enforcement and was willing to 201 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 4: defend themselves, defend themselves with weapons against law horsemen and 202 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 4: you know, like that that breaks down this kind of 203 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 4: veneer that the cops have is you know, unassailable, and 204 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 4: so he was a scary person for them. 205 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: Mostly. Did you come across the Rabble Rouser Index from 206 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: the FBI? 207 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 4: No, I haven't heard of that. 208 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: Okay, So this is something that is available right now 209 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 2: anybody listening. You can go to the National Archives and 210 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: you can find the FBI's quote Rabble Rouser Index. It's 211 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 2: also known they use the term subversive control in association 212 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: with this. And there's like two hundred and fifty five 213 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: documents like PDF documents that have been scanned in stunning reads. 214 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 2: Well it's it's amazing. A lot of it's redacted, but 215 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 2: I don't want to read too much of this, but 216 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 2: just a little bit of this, because it's a memo 217 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: from FBI Director j Edgar Hoover, who has played a 218 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: role in so many stories, including the MLK tapes show 219 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 2: that we made last year, and this is just in 220 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 2: saying to see this, I'm gonna read it effective immediately. 221 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: In view of the widespread racial unrest, the Bureau will 222 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: maintain a rabble Rouser Index. The index will consist of names, 223 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: identifying data, and background information of individuals who are known 224 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 2: rabble rousers and have demonstrated by their actions and speeches 225 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: they have a propensity for fomenting racial disorder. And Stokely Carmichael, 226 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: the person who preceded h Rat Brown as the SNCC chairman. 227 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: He is like at the top of the list. Stokely 228 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: Carmichael is like enemy number one when it comes to 229 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: how the FBI views anyone in this realm. 230 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 3: Right. 231 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: It includes a ton of Black Power leaders. It also 232 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: includes KKK members and Nazi Party leaders, which is really interesting, 233 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: but it's just I guess it's just to show that 234 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: the FBI viewed h. Rat Brown as an enemy, a 235 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: true an enemy in almost a or uh. And I 236 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: guess I'm sorry, I need to ask a question mostly, 237 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 2: but it's just like, what what did you find when 238 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: it came to how the FBI was either monitoring or 239 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: what were they watching him in the same way that 240 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 2: they were watching Stokely Carmichael. 241 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 4: Definitely. I mean when Quintelpro was was first organized, there 242 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 4: were I don't want to get too specific because I 243 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 4: might say something that's wrong, but there were a list 244 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 4: of names that were included as people who could be 245 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 4: considered a black messiah, someone who could one of these 246 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 4: rabbel rousers, who could who the black public could could 247 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 4: convene around and could ultimately kind of undermine the integrity 248 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 4: of the United States. And h Rap Brown was one 249 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 4: of those was one of the people whose name was 250 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 4: on that list. And so you know, like we get 251 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 4: into there, we we came across some of these documents 252 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 4: in our in our reporting and our research, and you 253 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 4: begin to see kind of like in close detail how 254 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 4: these operations worked and how they could undermine someone's ability 255 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 4: to be effective as a leader. And with with h 256 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 4: Rap Brown, what they did was they yes, there was surveillance, 257 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 4: but what ultimately slowed him down was kind of like 258 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 4: a barrage of charges that were not true, and so 259 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 4: they pulled him into the court system in a way 260 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 4: where he suddenly had court dates. He certainly had, you know, 261 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 4: was in jail for violating bond. He sorta he suddenly 262 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 4: couldn't move around because of the terms of his release 263 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 4: and uh, and these charges just accumulated to the to 264 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 4: the point where he had to step down as the 265 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 4: leader of the student Non Violent Coordinating Committee. And then 266 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 4: you know, like so that happens, and in the public's 267 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 4: mind those charges perhaps could be true. We don't really know, 268 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 4: but if you look at the long kind of arc 269 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 4: of time, all those charges are are are thrown out 270 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 4: for various kindsitutional reasons, and so the question becomes why 271 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 4: were they brought and there was there some intention or 272 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 4: purpose behind that, and in this case, it's quite clear 273 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 4: the answer is yes. And so he's forced underground. This 274 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 4: all this kind of like legal assault is a strong word, 275 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 4: but this, all these legal actions eventually culminated in this 276 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 4: in this car bomb explosion outside of a court court 277 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 4: hearing where he was supposed to be in attendance. And 278 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 4: it's pretty widely assumed that that car bomb was an 279 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 4: assassination attempt against him. Many believed by the FBI, And 280 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 4: so at that point he has to go underground just 281 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 4: to protect his life, and his days as an organizer 282 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 4: are under are pretty much over, or at least they're 283 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 4: undercover at that point. 284 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like eighteen months, Yes, that disappears, so more 285 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 3: than a year something, he's off the grid, underground. And 286 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 3: this also what I really appreciate your pointing out here 287 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 3: is that in the case of co Intel's approach, it's 288 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 3: pretty clear that they were not under the auspices of 289 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 3: this program. They were not saying, let's find someone who 290 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 3: has committed a crime. They were saying, let's find some 291 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 3: let's find a crime to fit on someone because we 292 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 3: find them dangerous. So we could make a very clear 293 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 3: argument is an active series of conspiracies not conspiracy theories. 294 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: Well, it's nuts. If you look at that index, it 295 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: is all of the field offices, all the FBI field 296 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 2: offices across the contiguous United States, that are keeping tabs 297 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: on anybody that ends up on that list, so like 298 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: any anywhere they go, who they meet with, Like, it's 299 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: it's nuts to see that level of it is surveillance. 300 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 2: But again, as you're saying, once you get into the 301 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 2: American prison system through the justice system. You are now 302 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 2: in that system, and it's so much easier to have 303 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: someone get back in it and stuck in it. And 304 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: I think that's just such a good point, and that 305 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 2: is where a mom Jamil Alimine finds himself. 306 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 3: Now we're going to pause here for a word from 307 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 3: our sponsor and we'll be right back and we've returned. 308 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: I want to talk about this word violence, if you 309 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 2: don't mind you you have a great exploration in episode 310 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 2: five on the word violence, how we use it the way, 311 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 2: like what we apply it to, and how it's actually 312 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: a much more robust word that can apply to other things, 313 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,719 Speaker 2: and how how would you apply it to, let's say, 314 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 2: the prison system and specifically Alimane's experience. 315 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, so this exploration started really with this phrase that 316 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,239 Speaker 4: Jamil Elamine is famous for uttering are actually you know, 317 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 4: he said it when he was still a trap Brown 318 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 4: and one of his thump speeches, he said violence is 319 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 4: as American as cherry pie. And what he meant by 320 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 4: that was that America attained its greatness. America attained its 321 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 4: position largely through force against human beings, by forcing people 322 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 4: into labor, by battling people for their land, et cetera. 323 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 4: Like we know these things, and so as as a 324 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,479 Speaker 4: member of a group of people that was oppressed, he said, okay, 325 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 4: let us let us also take violence into our hands 326 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 4: as a means of power. And so that was that's 327 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 4: kind of one of the things that we're interrogating in 328 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 4: the show, and that's kind of what led to this 329 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 4: exploration of the word violence. And so, you know, I 330 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 4: think at some point I just turned to the Oxford 331 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 4: English Dictionary and one of the things we came across 332 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 4: was this you know, old definition of doctor of of 333 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 4: violence that that had that contained more meaning than it 334 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 4: does today, and it included, you know, acts against people 335 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 4: committed by the state, harm committed by the state, against 336 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 4: the poppy, against the public. And you know, we explored 337 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 4: that in this episode Cherry Pie and looking at the 338 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 4: terms of Jamille Ellen means imprisonment, how he was held, 339 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 4: the degree that they went to take away aspects of 340 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 4: his humanity, and whether, you know, like to what extent 341 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 4: the public is comfortable with the government committing these types 342 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 4: of acts on our behalf, no matter what anyone has 343 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 4: been convicted of, do we believe that our public representatives 344 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 4: should inflict that much harm on other people. That's what 345 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 4: this what this episode asks, and this episode asks are 346 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 4: we to what degree are we allowing the government to 347 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 4: commit this type of violence on our behalf? 348 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 3: And to what degree does the public consider itself accountable 349 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 3: right in that regard? And I believe it is what 350 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 3: during incarceration in Attica that that a trap Brown does 351 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,719 Speaker 3: convert to Islam, and what we learn about this conversion 352 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 3: in the course of Radical and after he after he 353 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 3: is gone from Attica where he relocates to Atlanta, Georgia. Now, 354 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 3: I think one very crucial fact here is that he 355 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 3: is a person who is speaking from firsthand experience on 356 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: multiple levels about things. Maybe kids in the West End 357 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 3: and have like no growing up and now they're able 358 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 3: to speak with someone who is a community leader who 359 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: was saying, yes, this is real. These conspiracies and problems exist, 360 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 3: there are solutions, and I can help navigate. I can 361 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 3: help provide those solutions. We have in Radical extensive interviews 362 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 3: with members of the community during this time, and a 363 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: lot of those interviews, or a lot of the substance 364 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 3: of those conversations has never made it to the air before, 365 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 3: so I'd love to ask, when you are speaking with 366 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 3: folks who have first experience with the. 367 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 6: Mom who have grown up in these times, was there 368 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 6: anything people said, or any commonality or even just any 369 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 6: singular statement that really stood out to you and stuck 370 00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 6: with you. 371 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 4: And why I think it was? It wasn't was an 372 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 4: idea of you could call it brotherhood or sisterhood or 373 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 4: whatever word contains contains both of those things. There were 374 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 4: people community, There were people who felt that they could 375 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 4: lean on each other and that they loved each other 376 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 4: and that they would be there for each other to 377 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 4: kind of navigate the difficulties of the world. And they 378 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 4: and it was really kind of this, this this nice 379 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 4: thing where they said, Okay, the world may not be 380 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 4: organized to to lift us up, but we're going to 381 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 4: lift each other up. And and people remember that time 382 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 4: quite fondly. The people who I spoke to, uh, you know, 383 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 4: and in doing this they were doing they were they 384 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 4: had a lot of moories that were that we could 385 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 4: not consider normal and that I you know, they wouldn't 386 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 4: that I wouldn't want to engage in. But there they 387 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 4: were doing this luntarily, you know, like the the managermil 388 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 4: had a lot of control over that neighborhood. You know, 389 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 4: they were essentially living under his very close leadership. It 390 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 4: wasn't like everybody would want to live under those circumstances. 391 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 4: So you did have to give up some type You 392 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 4: have to give up a little bit of personal liberty 393 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 4: to be in this little utopia. And so I can't 394 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 4: say that that's for everybody. And also over the course 395 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 4: of time that sheen, that good feeling did start to diminish. 396 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 4: Like you know, things are always changing, and they changed 397 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 4: in ways that weren't necessarily for the best. And we 398 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 4: explore that in the show. 399 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about Rodney and as you're like driving around 400 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 2: with Rodney and just exploring the neighborhood again, and he's 401 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 2: telling you all these stories of the violence that he 402 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 2: experienced on just a regular basis. And I'm Alosto imagining 403 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: a perimeter around the mage the or like the area 404 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 2: right there was more more or less controlled by the Imam. 405 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 2: I'd like that it felt like there was such violence 406 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 2: that existed right outside the door. And speaking of just 407 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 2: I'm thinking back when you were when you attended uh 408 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 2: that summer camp, right, I have a very limited experience, 409 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 2: but I've been to a lot of churches, most of 410 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 2: them suburban, middle class churches. I've never been to a 411 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 2: church that has a security detail, and it makes me 412 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 2: think about, you know, what was going on there. What 413 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 2: did you learn about like the security detail. 414 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a there's a backstory to it. The West 415 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 4: End was a pretty dangerous place before Ama Jamil got there. 416 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 4: It was known as there are a lot of drug 417 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 4: corners where people were buying and selling and using. And 418 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 4: those drug corners were pretty lucrative, and so they were 419 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 4: defended with violence. And so Jamil Elamine and the people 420 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 4: around him come in and start to turn that around. 421 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 4: They established this this mass jid, which is actually in 422 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 4: a house in the neighborhood, which is you know, you know, 423 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 4: like a grid of criss crossing streets, and so people 424 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 4: and he establishes five prayers there, and so people are 425 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 4: walking from their homes to this mass jed or house 426 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 4: in the neighborhood to pray. And on those walks people 427 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 4: wanted to feel safe. Some of you know, the five prayers, 428 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 4: the first prayer is right before sunset, the last prayer 429 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 4: is after sunset, So some of those prayers are in 430 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 4: the dark, and people wanted to feel safe, and so 431 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 4: what they established was this security patrol that would make 432 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 4: sure that people walking back and forth the mass Jid 433 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 4: would not be harmed. The people on this team were 434 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 4: armed and there were It was understood in the neighborhood 435 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 4: that if you violated the the safety of anybody who 436 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 4: was who was going to pray that they're consequences. 437 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 2: You know. 438 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 4: There there are emerged questions over the years about the 439 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 4: extent of those consequences, and we explore that in the show. 440 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 4: It's unquestionable. You can't question that some people lost their 441 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 4: lives and around the West End who were drug dealers. 442 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 4: You can't really quibble with a life that's lost. It's 443 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 4: if someone's gone, they're gone. And so you know how 444 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 4: those people came to lose their lives is something that 445 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 4: we explore on the show. Is part of the legacy 446 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 4: of this neighborhood. 447 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 3: And this again may feel somewhat familiar to a lot 448 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 3: of us tuning in today who have lived in communities 449 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 3: where where someone makes this argument that says, look, the 450 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 3: people who are quote unquote supposed to be providing safety 451 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 3: are in fact not doing that. Therefore, we will we 452 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 3: will together lift ourselves up and provide that sort of 453 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 3: safety without all the you know, the due process, the 454 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 3: red tape and so on. At least is how it's 455 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 3: put theoretically. And for folks who have never been involved 456 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 3: in that sort of interaction in a community, that may 457 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 3: sound that may sound strange, right, that may sound anomalous, 458 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 3: But I believe it is important for people to remember 459 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 3: this high this situation can occur. 460 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: It is not a. 461 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 3: It's not a one off thing in the American discourse. 462 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: Well, I guess the question is, was the that security 463 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: force that was there that existed, It feels to me 464 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: like a defensive posture, a means of protection, right. I 465 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: wonder did you find anything where maybe potentially that security 466 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 2: force was used more as an offensive thing, or maybe 467 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 2: there's a sect within it that was was was that 468 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 2: saw itself as a way to crack down on some 469 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 2: of the drug dealing and people that they viewed as undesirable. 470 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 3: Perhaps proactively. 471 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 4: Uh, yes, definitely, And uh, you know we're getting we're 472 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 4: getting the spoiler material here. But here's the thing that 473 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 4: I learned in looking at this story. 474 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 3: If you have a. 475 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 4: Particular approach, let's say, your approach to dealing with the 476 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 4: trouble in neighborhood is to arm a bunch of guys 477 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 4: and and uh, you know, give them relatively free reign 478 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 4: to keep things safe. 479 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 7: That can work for a little while, maybe for a 480 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 7: long time, but it becomes difficult to control as people 481 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 7: get a taste for that type of power and and uh. 482 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 4: It just becomes difficult to control. 483 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 3: And so. 484 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 4: It tastes for that to power and also that type 485 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 4: of money in some cases now and I say that 486 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 4: because of this, they were protecting their community from drug dealers. 487 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 4: And one of the things that that we hear is 488 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 4: it in the beginning, they would they would sometimes you know, 489 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 4: come across these guys and they would confiscate their their 490 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 4: drugs or whatever, or or maybe they would take the 491 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 4: they would confiscate this money. And then at some point, 492 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 4: and in the beginning they were flushing the drugs down 493 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 4: the toilet, they were getting rid of the drugs. At 494 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 4: some point it becomes well, this is actually money they 495 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 4: were flushing down the toilet. What do we do this? 496 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 4: And then and then the kind of slow corruption process 497 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 4: starts of of of you know, kind of becoming something 498 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 4: that is different than your initial ideals. And that definitely 499 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 4: definitely happened in the West End, like no question. 500 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 2: But no spoilers. Do you listen to episode seven and 501 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: eight though, if you're interested in this line? 502 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 3: Uh yes. By the way, we also knew that for 503 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 3: everybody to need and as we are recording, the final 504 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 3: episode has yet to release, so I can't speak for everybody, 505 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 3: but I am. I am on the ride as well. 506 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 3: I don't I don't know how the how we conclude yet, but. 507 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 2: When you hear this episode eight will be will be 508 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: available on Tenderfoot Plus Early. You'll have to wait another 509 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 2: week until it comes on. 510 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 3: Hey and full disclosure, I also uh subscribed for early 511 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 3: access to make sure that I could be as up 512 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 3: to date as possible. 513 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: And with that, let's take a quick break here word 514 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 2: from the sponsor and return with most secret and we're back. 515 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 3: There's another turn here, and this is not I would 516 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 3: argue this is not a spoiler because this is sort 517 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 3: of our our next a culmination of some of these 518 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 3: factors right of this growing stuff describing the idea of 519 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 3: agency leading to Mission Creep, the idea of self empowerment 520 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 3: becoming an opportunity in some ways for other behaviors we 521 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 3: know that during during his time in Atlanta as a 522 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 3: community leader, the mom was was in situations with law enforcement. 523 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 3: I'm thinking of I'm thinking of nineteen ninety nine when 524 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 3: it was pulled over in Marrietta, Georgia, Right, that that 525 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 3: was one of those It was one of those situations 526 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 3: where I think he ultimately gets charged with impersonating a 527 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 3: police officer even though he has an honorary badge and 528 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 3: the literal mayorrit is like, yeah, I gave it to him. 529 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 3: So we see, what we could argue with a lot 530 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 3: of sand is a series of persecution, right, a series 531 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 3: of actions that are persecuting this person, the storied activist, 532 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 3: at the same time that he is building this powerful 533 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 3: community in the West End. Could you could you walk 534 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 3: us through, just in broad strokes, what the official narrative 535 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 3: is of the March sixteenth, two thousand incident that ultimately 536 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 3: led to his arresting conviction. 537 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, I can walk you through, and we can, and 538 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 4: we can start with this with this arrest and cop counting. So, 539 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 4: as you mentioned, he was he was pulled over and 540 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 4: arrested by some by some cops up there, and you know, 541 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 4: he eventually was charged as a result of that stop 542 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 4: with driving a stolen car and impersonating a police officer 543 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 4: and then person being a police officer. Part is because 544 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 4: when the cops stopped him, he a ma'am Jamil showed 545 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 4: this guy a badge and we don't really know what 546 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 4: the conversation was, but it seemed there was some type 547 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 4: of We think that it's because he wanted to let 548 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 4: this officer know that he was like a legit person 549 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 4: in the and who didn't kind of deserve any mistreatment. 550 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,720 Speaker 4: But whatever. He was charged with impersonating a police officer 551 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 4: and driving a stolen vehicle. The car was stolen, and 552 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 4: so that initiates some some court hearings for various reasons. 553 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 4: A man Jamil did not show up for those court 554 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 4: hearings and a warrant was issued for his arrest. This 555 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 4: is months before the shooting. So there are sheriff's deputies 556 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 4: in Fulton Counties who are Fulton County who were trying 557 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 4: to serve this warrant over a period of time. They're 558 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 4: trying to arrest him and bring him in for this 559 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 4: charge out in the suburbs, and that's what was happening 560 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 4: the night of March sixteen, two thousand two Sheriff's deputies 561 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 4: were going around the spots in the West End that 562 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 4: a man Jimial was known to frequent trying to serve 563 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 4: this bench warrant for failure to appear in this court case. 564 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 4: The cops come to the neighborhood looking for a mammal. 565 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 4: They don't find them and they leave. They're in a 566 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 4: in a marked car, a Crown Victoria, and they're driving away. 567 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 4: There's like a small street there that goes away from 568 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 4: Weston Park. They're driving away. In their rear view mirror, 569 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 4: they see a car pull up in front of a 570 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 4: man Jamil store. So they turn the car around, turn 571 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 4: around their squad car to see what who was in 572 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 4: this car that pulled up. So the squad car comes 573 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 4: back down the street and the and the car pulled 574 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,839 Speaker 4: up in front of the store is parked on the street. 575 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 4: It's a black Mercedes. So eventually the squad car in 576 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 4: the black Mercedes are nose to nose and there's like 577 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 4: a you know, you see that, you see the you 578 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 4: see a confrontation ing here. So the cops get out 579 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 4: of the car, you know, one on each side of 580 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 4: the car, and and the man in the Mercedes gets 581 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 4: out of the car. Uh. The cops notice that they 582 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 4: cannot see the man's hands, the man who's gotten out 583 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 4: of the Mercedes, and they ask him to show his hands. 584 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 4: The cops say that the person uh says something that's 585 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 4: the effect of of hey, and then pulls a long 586 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 4: rifle out of some type of long garment and starts 587 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,879 Speaker 4: shooting at them. Both cops are hit. One of them 588 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 4: runs to a field near the mass did and and 589 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 4: UH waits there. Another one of them is killed right 590 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 4: there in front of the car. And so this is 591 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 4: the this is the the shooting and the crime that 592 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 4: eventually leads investigators eventually UH charge a man Jimmial with 593 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:04,439 Speaker 4: you know, after that shooting, he did, he fled. He 594 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 4: fled to Alabama to the very location where he had 595 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 4: been organizing as as an activist in his young life. 596 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 4: A federal law enforcement eventually found him there and the Mercedes, 597 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 4: which was riddled with bullet holes, and he was charged 598 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 4: and convicted of this crime. 599 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 2: Just knowing that the Mercedes was there at his location 600 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 2: where he fled and it did have bullet holes in 601 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 2: it is one of those things that you just you 602 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 2: hear that and you think, oh, Okay, well, then that's 603 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 2: obviously what happened. But it's so much more complicated than that, right, 604 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,320 Speaker 2: I mean, and especially as you continue exploring the story, 605 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 2: you continue, you know, you kind of look, you take 606 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 2: a really hard look at the witness statements from the 607 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,720 Speaker 2: surviving deputy. There's some really there's a really interesting piece 608 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 2: in here about the man's eyes. I can't remember which 609 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 2: episode that is, but just specifically this officer who was 610 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 2: shot who says, I looked directly into the man's eyes 611 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 2: you shot me, and like gets if it is allaman's eyes. 612 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 2: The eye colors. 613 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 3: Wrong, so you're gray eyes. 614 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. There's so many inconsistencies like that that make you, 615 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 2: again as a listeners, you're as you're going through this, 616 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 2: make you question things. Was there any point where you 617 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 2: begin to really question the story and feel like you 618 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 2: didn't have a grasp on what occurred, especially when you 619 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,800 Speaker 2: encounter somebody like Otis Jackson who has a completely different 620 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:31,800 Speaker 2: version of the story. 621 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 4: I mean, there were many points where I thought I 622 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 4: didn't have a grasp of the story. We're dealing with 623 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 4: events that happened twenty plus years ago, in addition to 624 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 4: dealing with a lot of secrets, you know, both FBI 625 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 4: secrets and secrets from the Muslims in the West End, 626 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 4: and so these types of things you kind of wonder 627 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 4: in the beginning if you're going to even get to 628 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 4: the to the bottom of them. And there were many 629 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 4: moments when I thought that I that I that I 630 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 4: could never really figure out what happened. Like you just 631 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 4: kind of come to a point where you know, someone 632 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 4: says one thing, someone else says another thing, and you 633 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 4: you don't really have the means at your disposal to 634 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 4: figure out which is which. But we do draw conclusion 635 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 4: in the show, and uh, you know, to my surprise 636 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 4: actually and to my satisfaction, I think I know what happened, 637 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 4: But I don't know if that's going to beat everyone 638 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:39,240 Speaker 4: else's satisfaction. We'll have to see. But yeah, eventually things 639 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 4: kind of came into focus in a way that that 640 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 4: made sense for me. 641 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 2: Mm well, And just to be clear, this person that 642 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 2: we're speaking of, Otis Jackson, had a whole other story 643 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 2: where he was, in fact the one who you know 644 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 2: shot the sheriff's deputies on that night in two thousand 645 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 2: and you can Yeah, it's. 646 00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 3: Just really Otis. 647 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 4: You asked me about Otis. So, yeah, so Otis is 648 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 4: someone who confessed to this crime pretty soon after it happened. 649 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 4: He was a known person around the time of the 650 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 4: trial in two thousand and two, prosecution and defense and 651 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 4: who over the years has maintained that he's the one 652 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,359 Speaker 4: who did it. And so you hear something like that 653 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 4: and uh, and you he was not coerced in at 654 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 4: least it doesn't appear coercon to him making this confession, 655 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 4: and so you have to take it seriously, and we did, 656 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 4: and we talked to him. Johnny talked to him, My 657 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 4: producer talked to him. And you get any of these things, 658 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 4: and you realize that even something like a confession that 659 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 4: was not coerced can be actually quite complicated. And that's 660 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 4: what we find, you know, in conversation with Otis, And 661 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 4: it does what we thought was kind of be a 662 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 4: clear kind of direction towards the truth actually was a misdirection. 663 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,839 Speaker 4: And it was definitely one of those moments where where 664 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 4: I thought I didn't know which way, I didn't know 665 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 4: which way was right, you know, like in the in 666 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 4: my early days of reporting on the story, I remember 667 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 4: the first time I read some of the stuff from Otis. 668 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 4: I was like, whoa, this guy definitely did it. And 669 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 4: then other points I was like, well, this guy is 670 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 4: lying so and it and it and it. Uh yeah, 671 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 4: we go. You have to see which way we landed 672 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,839 Speaker 4: on that on that one, but it was complicated mm hmm. 673 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 3: And and I do want to I do want to 674 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 3: point out to one thing that, uh, I find quite 675 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:47,800 Speaker 3: impressive is that in this investigation, there is there's this beautiful, 676 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 3: like Jedi like objectivity to uh to asking the people 677 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 3: with the conflicting narratives. You know, let's let's talk to 678 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 3: prosecutors involved in this, let's talk to you know, let's 679 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:06,280 Speaker 3: talk to Otis Jackson, Let's learn all sides of this story. 680 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 3: And I just want to say I mentally appreciate that 681 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 3: point of sort of way leading on to waigh. You know, 682 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 3: because we want to build our we want to build 683 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 3: our bricks of logic, right are if thens need to 684 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 3: be solid? And it seems like several times we as 685 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 3: the audience listening to this are experiencing the same thing. 686 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 3: We're like, well, this is definitely oh but wait oh wait, 687 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 3: but then what does that also mean? Which I find compelling. 688 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 3: I find also it is it brings us to it 689 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,839 Speaker 3: brings us to the fact that this is not an 690 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 3: historical case and historical footnote by any means. We know 691 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,720 Speaker 3: the mom is. I believe the mom is currently incarcerated 692 00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:00,319 Speaker 3: and has I think, gosh, just a few years ago, 693 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 3: had an appeal that made it all the way to 694 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 3: the Supreme Court. Is that correct? 695 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,720 Speaker 4: I don't think that they got certification on the case. 696 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:15,399 Speaker 3: Oh okay, but they went the Supreme Court did decline 697 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 3: it is. 698 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure the Supreme Court declined it. 699 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. Well, how for people listening now in the 700 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 3: case of in the case of this current incarceration, could 701 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 3: you tell us a little bit about how the West 702 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 3: End community is thinking through this, how they are experiencing, 703 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 3: how they are experiencing the case, and is there any 704 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 3: active movement to perhaps have him released from incarceration. 705 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 4: So the folks in the West End, there are people 706 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 4: who are still organizing, you know, who are still making 707 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,880 Speaker 4: a campaign to have him released. They are at this point, 708 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,799 Speaker 4: all of the almost all of the legal options for 709 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 4: a man Jamil have been exhausted. All the appeals have 710 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 4: been exhausted, all the habeas petitions have been exhausted. His 711 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:19,720 Speaker 4: last remaining hope is a division of the Fulton County 712 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,360 Speaker 4: DA's office called the Conviction Integrity Unit, which reviews possible 713 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 4: instances of wrongful conviction. And so the people in the 714 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:35,280 Speaker 4: community are essentially mounting a public campaign to get certain 715 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 4: evidence considered by this unit of the DA's office. And 716 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 4: so there are people there who are still very much 717 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 4: behind a Maam Jamil. But you know, in this podcast, 718 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 4: we don't explore their feelings that much because they didn't 719 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 4: want to talk. A man Jamil and his one of 720 00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:01,920 Speaker 4: his sons still have pretty strong degree of control about 721 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:10,239 Speaker 4: control over how this community behaves, and we you know, 722 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,240 Speaker 4: we weren't allowed to talk to them on the record. 723 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 4: So the stuff that I know about, you know, how 724 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 4: things are playing in the community, that that's kind of 725 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 4: like secondhand in scull Butt, you know, so we weren't 726 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 4: able to get anything from them directly. We do have 727 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,320 Speaker 4: a guy in the show. His name is Balal Suni Ali. 728 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 4: He is he is a Mam gmials. I forgot the 729 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,799 Speaker 4: exact term that he used, but he is essentially the 730 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:40,920 Speaker 4: person who was leading up on the non legal side, 731 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,400 Speaker 4: who's not a lawyer, the person who's leading up the 732 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,399 Speaker 4: campaign for mam Gmial's freedom, and he did talk to us, 733 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,279 Speaker 4: but kind of like beyond him, we don't really have 734 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 4: that much of a sense of how things are playing 735 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 4: other than you know, like things that are posted on 736 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 4: social media. 737 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,919 Speaker 2: It makes me think about the influence and maybe loyalty. Yeah, 738 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,040 Speaker 2: the influence that Alamine had had and has within the community, 739 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,720 Speaker 2: the perhaps a loyalty to him that some people feel. 740 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 2: And it again takes me. It's weird, man, I keep 741 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:13,919 Speaker 2: going back to that security detail. I think it's because 742 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 2: I'm fresh off listening to episode seven, but it's I 743 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,839 Speaker 2: want to talk about this person, Shaheed, but I don't 744 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 2: want to give too many spoilers. There's an individual that 745 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,400 Speaker 2: you find, I think via I don't know exactly how 746 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,479 Speaker 2: you come across him. But there's another document at play 747 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:37,440 Speaker 2: here called the Synopsis of West End Homicides that just 748 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 2: looks at specific individuals who were killed in the West 749 00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:46,480 Speaker 2: End neighborhood over a certain period of time there and 750 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 2: in a lot of those individual murders, there are people 751 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 2: who are suspected to maybe have played a part, but 752 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 2: often it's like there's no evidence linked to this individual 753 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,919 Speaker 2: murder case. So this homicide, right and just I don't 754 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 2: want to say the police are not investigating each one 755 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,919 Speaker 2: of those individual cases, you know, with full veracity, because 756 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,920 Speaker 2: I'm sure they are. It's just it does seem like 757 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,959 Speaker 2: not a lot of attention gets paid to the drug 758 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,440 Speaker 2: dealers that got shot on the corner versus the deputies 759 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,239 Speaker 2: that were shot right by their car, And I just 760 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 2: I just wonder if it makes you wonder about the 761 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 2: big picture of this show, and like if are there 762 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 2: have you found any big picture answers in your exploration 763 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,440 Speaker 2: to something like a big question like how do I, 764 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 2: as an individual or a leader enact change within an 765 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 2: oppressive system that views me as an enemy? Do you 766 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,240 Speaker 2: think there's any at least partial answers to that question 767 00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:54,760 Speaker 2: that you found? 768 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 3: Or why can people take from the show? 769 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I found those answers for my self, 770 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,360 Speaker 4: and I give those answers for myself in the show, 771 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:09,320 Speaker 4: but I hesitate to tell other people what the answer 772 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,480 Speaker 4: should be for them, and that's how I frame it. 773 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:17,200 Speaker 4: One of the themes in the show is kind of 774 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 4: this man. Jimil was this person who was very hard 775 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,360 Speaker 4: to define because he meant different things to different people. 776 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 4: He to federal law enforcement, he was this villain who 777 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:35,920 Speaker 4: they pursued, but a lot of the things that they 778 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:42,239 Speaker 4: based this assessment of him on were either imagined or 779 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 4: not necessarily true, or someone was spinning them, or like 780 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:49,399 Speaker 4: various types of things. Other people gave him this kind 781 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,840 Speaker 4: of like heroic sheene. But when you kind of break 782 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,200 Speaker 4: that down, he was doing stuff in the community that 783 00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,400 Speaker 4: is questionable, and he was leading them in ways that 784 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:02,959 Speaker 4: were questionable. The story that was around him still has 785 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,319 Speaker 4: this He's still held up in this way that is 786 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:13,680 Speaker 4: impactful in people's lives. And you know, what we were 787 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 4: dealing with. Essentially, we determined were stories and the power 788 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:26,600 Speaker 4: of stories on both sides, and the power of stories 789 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:32,120 Speaker 4: for people who are trying to shift narratives about their 790 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,879 Speaker 4: communities and shift narratives about what their governments and their 791 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:42,280 Speaker 4: leaders are capable of. And as a storyteller and working 792 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:47,279 Speaker 4: with this kind of like shifty material, that's kind of 793 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:48,880 Speaker 4: what I decided to play with in the end, and 794 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,719 Speaker 4: that's what that's what the what we do in episode eight. 795 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:59,640 Speaker 3: And as as we noted, as you are hearing this today, folks, 796 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:06,520 Speaker 3: the almost the entirety of Radical is out now. Do 797 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,880 Speaker 3: check it out please. As as we said, we have 798 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:15,040 Speaker 3: a mense appreciation not just as just as residents of Atlanta, 799 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:20,520 Speaker 3: but as as fans of investigative journalism. We have a 800 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,680 Speaker 3: mense appreciation for your work here. And one one of 801 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 3: the big questions that I never want us to miss 802 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:31,360 Speaker 3: when we talk with journalists of your caliber is where 803 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 3: people can find more of your work, not just related 804 00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,560 Speaker 3: to radical but your your work with pro Publica and 805 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,719 Speaker 3: et cetera and so on times the time. Oh also, 806 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,239 Speaker 3: I've got we've got to give the flowers here. I 807 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,120 Speaker 3: didn't mention at the beginning, but everyone mostly is an 808 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:54,120 Speaker 3: award winning journalist. By the way. Didn't want to embarrass 809 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:55,040 Speaker 3: you on that one. 810 00:51:55,239 --> 00:52:00,160 Speaker 4: Yes, okay, I will take this opportunity to say that 811 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,880 Speaker 4: I was working with a great journalist on this, Johnny Kaufman, 812 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:10,160 Speaker 4: who I always want to you know, highlight, because this 813 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,400 Speaker 4: was as much Johnny as it was me. As you 814 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,200 Speaker 4: guys know, we have a producer, you know how these 815 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,560 Speaker 4: things work, like, we were doing this thing as a team, 816 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 4: and my work is on my website Mostsecret dot com, 817 00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,759 Speaker 4: which I need to update and refresh. If you have 818 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,160 Speaker 4: a website, you know how that goes broils on this stuff. 819 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,879 Speaker 4: Is still there, so that's a good place. And uh yeah, 820 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:35,319 Speaker 4: you know, my name is kind of weird, so if 821 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,120 Speaker 4: you google my name, a lot of stuff will come up. 822 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,560 Speaker 3: To Again, we cannot thank you enough for your time 823 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,400 Speaker 3: here today. Thank you, bitch. As for our filow conspiracy realists, 824 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,960 Speaker 3: please do tune in the show available today wherever you 825 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:55,040 Speaker 3: find your favorite podcast. What a fantastic show, you know, Matt, 826 00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,440 Speaker 3: we were so lucky to have Mossey on for this conversation. 827 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:01,680 Speaker 3: I've got say, I'm sure you felt the same way 828 00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:07,080 Speaker 3: as longtime residents of Atlanta. A lot of this was 829 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:08,000 Speaker 3: was quite familiar. 830 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:13,520 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, very very familiar. One of the 831 00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 2: most interesting things you can listen to is a bonus 832 00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,680 Speaker 2: episode where Mossy and Johnny Kaufman, the two producers and 833 00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,440 Speaker 2: writers of the show, get together and just talk about 834 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,480 Speaker 2: finding documents, you know, doing those freedom of information requests 835 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:32,560 Speaker 2: and just sifting through the stuff, just so many things. 836 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,000 Speaker 2: Because you're talking about a person h Trap Brown that 837 00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:40,600 Speaker 2: goes back to the nineteen sixties right where there are 838 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,000 Speaker 2: real FBI files. We're not joking about these FBI files, 839 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:49,279 Speaker 2: so many on this individual, and just holding that in 840 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,080 Speaker 2: your mind and applying that person that they're the way 841 00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,439 Speaker 2: that government sees that person applying it to this person 842 00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,399 Speaker 2: who's now in em maam in Atlanta, and like, how 843 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,920 Speaker 2: does that influence everything that's getting thrown at him. 844 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, we didn't get to the Cambridge riots. We didn't. 845 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,360 Speaker 3: There's so much stuff we didn't get to, but Moussey 846 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,440 Speaker 3: and his team get to a lot of it. If 847 00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:16,239 Speaker 3: you'd like to learn more about Cohen Tulpro, please check 848 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:21,440 Speaker 3: out our earlier existing episodes on proven Conspiracies on the 849 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,080 Speaker 3: part of the Alphabet. 850 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,680 Speaker 2: Dude, and I'm not kidding, go back and listen to 851 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,960 Speaker 2: the MLK tapes show as well, because there's some weird 852 00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,960 Speaker 2: parallels there with the same individuals in charge, like in 853 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,840 Speaker 2: the FBI and just in the mechanisms that are applied 854 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,400 Speaker 2: to both of these stories. Really fascinating stuff. 855 00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,240 Speaker 3: And thank you as always for tuning in. Fellow conspiracy realist. 856 00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:48,160 Speaker 3: We would love to hear your take on this exploration. 857 00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:52,880 Speaker 3: We'd also love to hear your thoughts on other cases 858 00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,520 Speaker 3: that may have have triggered some similarities for you when 859 00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,200 Speaker 3: you hear this, because as I had mentioned earlier, the 860 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:02,839 Speaker 3: thing that might escape a lot of people is that 861 00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,359 Speaker 3: these are not necessarily one offs. These are not necessarily 862 00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 3: things that exist in a vacuum. So let us know. 863 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:15,399 Speaker 3: Please get THEE to thy favorite method of communication, whether 864 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:21,240 Speaker 3: that's Instagram, YouTube, or Twitter FK or x fk twitter. 865 00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,239 Speaker 3: We're all over all of those. Or you can give 866 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:25,240 Speaker 3: us a phone call directly. 867 00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:30,800 Speaker 2: Yes, our number is one eight three three st d WYTK. 868 00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,279 Speaker 2: It's a voicemail system. When you call in, you've got 869 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,279 Speaker 2: three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname, and let us 870 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:38,360 Speaker 2: know if we can use your message on the air. 871 00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,200 Speaker 2: It's that simple. If you want to send us links 872 00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:44,200 Speaker 2: or attachments or a longer story, why not instead shoot 873 00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:44,880 Speaker 2: us an email. 874 00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,800 Speaker 3: We are the folks who read every single email we 875 00:55:47,920 --> 00:56:09,120 Speaker 3: get conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 876 00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,360 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production 877 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:16,000 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 878 00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,960 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.