1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Mr Shap, thanks for joining us. UH. First of all, 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: just remind us what the Office of Government Ethics is 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: and what authority it has. So, the Office of Government 4 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: Ethics is the supervising ethics office for the executive branch 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: of the federal government, and that term supervising Ethics Office 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: comes straight out of the Ethics and Government Act. O 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: g E has authority over a very specific set of 8 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: ethics rules and statutes and executive orders that apply across 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: the executive branch. There's only seventy or eighty employees at 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 1: o g E at any one time, but there are 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: forty five hundred agency ethics officials across the government, and 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: o g E doesn't directly supervise them, but oversees their work, 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: audits them, provides them with advice and training, and works 14 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: very closely with them to ensure uniform application of the 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: ethics rules across the executive branch. So that office is 16 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: generally pretty behind the scenes. But when Donald Trump was elected, 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: your office pretty quickly went public on Twitter, UH and 18 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: saying he should divest his business interests. Why did you 19 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: decide to be so lot spoken that way? So to 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: explain that, I have to explain a little bit about 21 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: how o GE functions. O g E has a lot 22 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: of authority, but literally almost no power. And the difference 23 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: between authority and power, in my mind is that a 24 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: federal court judge can issue an order telling you to 25 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: do something, but it's the us the threat that the U. S. 26 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: Marshals will show up in your doorstep if you don't 27 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: do it that makes you comply, And so you've got 28 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: the authority to issue the order and the power to 29 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: enforce the order. O g E has a lot of authority, 30 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: but no power to actually enforce the determinations it makes, 31 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: and so it works closely with the White House in 32 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: any administration. Uh And in fact, for such a tiny, 33 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: minuscule entity in the federal government, it's got an incredibly 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: disparate porginate level of access to the White House, usually 35 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: through the White House Counsel's Office, And so if o 36 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: G ran into an individual official or an agency that 37 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: wasn't doing what it said was required, O g E 38 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: could call up the White House Counsel's office and usually 39 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: by the next morning they'd be on the phone saying, 40 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: what can we do to help you? From that agency 41 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: because they would have gotten a call from the White 42 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: House Council's office, and with presidential nominees, they need o 43 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: G E to sign off on their paperwork and their 44 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: ethics agreements before they can go before the Senate for 45 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: a confirmation hearing. So the two sources of authority that 46 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: o G is traditionally relied on or power has been 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: leveraging assistance from the White House or withholding clearance on 48 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: a presidential nominee. UH. It became very quickly clear after 49 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: the election that we did not have the support of 50 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: the person who was going to become the White House 51 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: Council and his team, and so the primary means forgetting 52 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: things done working with them was just out the window. 53 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 1: And in fact I had trouble getting them to respond 54 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: to messages or answer questions, and so it simply became 55 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: a matter of last resort. There's some legislative history where 56 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: congressional committees issued some reports saying that o G the 57 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: threat that O G E might go public with issues 58 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: was a useful tool for o GE to help keep 59 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: people in line in the absence of any authority, and 60 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: I was mindful of those Senate and House reports at 61 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: the time UH and decided I needed to try something 62 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: new in order to be able to communicate with folks 63 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: who are not listening. So the president, of course did 64 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: not divest all of his business assets. What dangers do 65 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: you see from that decision? Well, I think the dangerous 66 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: have gone from being hypothetical to very real. We now 67 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: have reports in the newspaper and on TV about government 68 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: officials hanging out at the Trump Washington Hotel. And you've 69 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: got foreign governments and lobbyists and business people and charities 70 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: and politicians holding events there. Uh, And it raises the 71 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: very real appearance that they are trying to curry favor 72 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,679 Speaker 1: with the president or gain access to government officials. And 73 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: you've got the president spending countless weekends. Actually I shouldn't 74 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: say countless. There are people who are accounting them, and 75 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: there are a lot of them at his properties, and 76 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: every time he goes there, it's a free advertisement for 77 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: his properties. And he doesn't refrain from talking about things 78 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: like the beautiful chocolate cake that he was eating when 79 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: he lobbed missiles at an airfield in Syria. And so 80 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: you've got, uh, somebody appearing to misuse the presidency to 81 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: try to profit from it. You've got him not selling 82 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: his financial interest, and so there are rampant conflicts of 83 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: interest when people going there and trying to gain access 84 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: to him, and you have the less visible conflicts of interest. 85 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: He's got very complex financial holdings, uh, and they're in 86 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: this shell game of shell company after shell company that 87 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: creates this byzantine maze of his holdings. And it's very 88 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: hard to get your mind around what he truly has 89 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: in terms of financial interests because of the way these 90 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: assets are structured, and because the financial disclosure system doesn't 91 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: require him to disclose business liabilities or business partners, so 92 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: we can't know who's got their hooks into him. Wouldn't 93 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: a lot of those issues have been there regardless of 94 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: whether what he did. I mean, if he had divested 95 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: his assets right away, wouldn't there have been an opportunity 96 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: for folks to curry favor with him by paying an 97 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,799 Speaker 1: inflated amount, or if he had transferred them to his children, 98 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: of course they would continue to benefit from owning those assets. 99 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: Was there really any way around this problem? I truly 100 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: think there is. If he had sold it, and he 101 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: had taken care to sell it for market value, he 102 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: certainly could have brought an independent analysts to assess the 103 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: values of the businesses he was selling, and he would 104 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: have been able to put it together a legitimate explanation 105 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: as to why he took the amount of money that 106 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: he did for anything he sold. And let's remember it 107 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: would be a one time deal. He'd sell it, he'd 108 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: have the money, and even if somebody had lingering doubts 109 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: about whether he sold it for a fair price, he's 110 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: taken the money. Now they don't have any more leverage 111 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: over him. They can't say, hey, remember that time I 112 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: paid you too much? Can you do something nice for me? Now? 113 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: The reality is his transaction with them is over. They 114 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: would have paid him whatever they paid him, and they 115 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: could have at best hoped for some kind of favor, 116 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: but they wouldn't have had continuing hooks in him. I 117 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: also think there were some very simple things he could 118 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: have done if he had chosen not to sell his assets. 119 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: He could have simply announced that he nor anyone in 120 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: his administration would go to events Trump properties. Imagine how 121 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: much that would reduce the incentive for a foreign government 122 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: or business association to throw an event at the Trump 123 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: properties if they knew that they were not going to 124 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: be able to get access to government officials there and 125 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: in fact, if they held it there, they would lose 126 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: the attendance of any government officials. So he really could 127 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: have done a lot more with some very simple measures 128 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: to reduce this problem. Asiphon the divestiture issue, what what 129 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: sort of great do you give this administration on ethics issues? Well, 130 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: I'm afraid I'd have to give them a d teetering 131 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: into f because the tone from the top has trickled down, 132 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: and you've got government officials who seem to continue to 133 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:49,239 Speaker 1: advertise other people's products or their own products from the government. Uh. 134 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: We recently had some Twitter posts and I don't want 135 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: to name the names or the books because I don't 136 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: want to get free advertising the books. But you can 137 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,559 Speaker 1: search Twitter and you'll see images of some White House 138 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: officials posing with the author of a book and holding 139 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: up his book, and the same with the President holding 140 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: up somebody's book. And you've got a White House counsel 141 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: who seems to be sending a message to folks that 142 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: anything goes and as long as we can make an 143 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: argument that it's legal, it's okay. And so after I 144 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: fought a battle with them for a month to get 145 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: some very routine ethics records the White House waivers. I 146 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: got a hand in my hands on those documents and 147 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: saw that they were unsigned, undated and retroactive. And a 148 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: retroactive waiver means you think somebody has already violated a 149 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: rule and you're saying to them after the fact, it's okay. 150 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: But the whole purpose of a waiver provision is to 151 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: take a decision out of your own hands and have 152 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: somebody else make the decision whether you can participate in something. 153 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: But if you just go and do it on your 154 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: own and then come back afterwards and say, hey, can 155 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: I have a retroactive waiver, you've thrown the whole purpose 156 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: of the waiver provision out the door by deciding for 157 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: yourself to not worry about your own conflicts of interest. So, 158 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: with that kind of tone, and we're seeing nominees who 159 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: are pushing back harder than we've seen before, which which 160 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: makes the nominee program more resource intensive for o g. E. Interestingly, 161 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: on that point, though at the time that I left, 162 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: I was able to tout statistics that we were moving 163 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: President Trump's nominees faster than we had moved to President 164 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:28,239 Speaker 1: Obama's nominees eight years earlier. Despite the White House continuing 165 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: to smear o G E by spreading stories even as 166 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: recently as this past week when the Daily Caller ransom 167 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: story about Secretary Zinky saying that o G is intentionally 168 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: slowing down nominees, the actual stats show that o G 169 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: s moving them faster uh than in the past administration, 170 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: even though the reports are much more complex because the 171 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: people are much wealthier and they're pushing back more than 172 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: than in other administrations. So all of that puts a 173 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: strain on the ethics program, puts a strain on the 174 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: morality employees working on it, and means that every single 175 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: time and ethics official goes and talks to a government 176 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: official about an ethics requirement, the person can throw up 177 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: their hands and say to the ethics official when the 178 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: president doesn't have to do this, so why do I? 179 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: And that is really not the way to run an 180 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 1: ethics program in the government. So when you were the 181 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: director of o g E, you were in a rare position. 182 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: You could criticize the administration from the inside or at 183 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: least you know, from an important government position, uh, and 184 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: you could uh put some pressure on them to to 185 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: comply with ethics rules. Um, so why did you leave? Well, 186 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: I truly felt I'd reached the end of what I 187 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: could achieve from the inside. And I think it wasn't 188 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: the deciding factor, but a factor was when I finally 189 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 1: got my hands on those waivers I mentioned, and they 190 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: were unsigned, undated, retroactive, and in fact the Council to 191 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: the President who issued the two of them was actually 192 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: a member of the class of the persons he issued 193 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: them too. So here he's saying, I hear I waive 194 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: it for myself, which is absolutely incredible. Um. And so 195 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: I started feeling like there wasn't more I could do, 196 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: and I started feeling like they were getting more clever 197 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: in their reactions to to O G E by sharing 198 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: less and less information with us, And so I felt 199 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: like leaving the government, I'd be freer to speak out 200 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: about it. And in fact, I wouldn't be sitting here 201 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: talking to you if I were still in the government, 202 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: because ultimately, in that role, I may have been a 203 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: government watchdog, but my boss was the president, and I 204 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: had to limit how much I was able to publicly 205 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: express my concerns, and so I did them through very 206 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: limited channels. And I have a lot more freedom now 207 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: to talk about some of these issues. One last thing 208 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: for you in your mind, are we going to be 209 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 1: able to recover from this period? Has this administration so 210 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: lower the ethics bar that future administrations will be able 211 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: to skirt some of these rule as well? Well? I 212 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: think that's a big concern because some of the things 213 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: that I've been expressing UH concerns about in the ethics 214 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: area have to do with ethical norms that are being 215 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: departed from, as opposed to strictly speaking violations of law. 216 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: And so we were always able to count on people 217 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: to behave a certain way and follow certain pretty well 218 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: defined ethical traditions in the executive branch. Now you've got 219 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: somebody who's largely getting away with not doing that. And 220 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: the concern is the next president of the next administration 221 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: can point to this one and say, well, they didn't 222 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: do it, so we don't have to either. And I 223 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: think we should be particularly careful, uh with um members 224 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: of the opposite party. You could have a Democratic candidate 225 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: much more easily than a Republican candidates say well, the 226 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 1: other guy got away with it. That Republican president got 227 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: away with it, so you can't criticize me, and I 228 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: think we really need to be sure to hold both 229 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: sides feet to the fire and not give anyone a 230 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: free pass going forward to make sure that we turn 231 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: this into a one time aberration rather than the new 232 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: norm for ethics and government. I want to thank Walter 233 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: shab the former director of the Office of Government Ethics, 234 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: now the senior director of Ethics at the Campaign Legal 235 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: Center here in Washington. Thanks for joining us on Bloomberg Law.