1
00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:09,160
Speaker 1: Just take me to your life as the prime minister.

2
00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:11,879
Speaker 1: That is a big deal.

3
00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 2: It was relatively unexpected.

4
00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:14,160
Speaker 1: You know.

5
00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,759
Speaker 2: I was the deputy leader in twenty seventeen when New

6
00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,640
Speaker 2: Zealand had an election and my boss decided that he

7
00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,480
Speaker 2: was unlikely to win, and so he seven weeks out

8
00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,880
Speaker 2: from the Andrew Little was his name?

9
00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:26,640
Speaker 1: Was he Labor?

10
00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,520
Speaker 2: He was? He was an ex trade union lawyer and

11
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,040
Speaker 2: president of one of our bigger trade unions. A great guy,

12
00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,120
Speaker 2: but was struggling in the polls. So he came to

13
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,160
Speaker 2: work and one day and then just quit and nominated

14
00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,360
Speaker 2: me to be the leader. And so I suddenly found

15
00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,920
Speaker 2: myself campaigning unexpectedly to be prime minister.

16
00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,320
Speaker 1: How much time was there between being made leader and

17
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:47,879
Speaker 1: having to run?

18
00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,920
Speaker 2: Actually roughly seven weeks, I said, it's very short. That's

19
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,840
Speaker 2: very sure, very short. Yeah, I mean we already had

20
00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:56,440
Speaker 2: the billboards up with his name on them.

21
00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,000
Speaker 1: So have you met Kamala?

22
00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:00,480
Speaker 2: I have got the time.

23
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:05,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, the same experience, same experience, and you know there

24
00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,880
Speaker 1: are parallels being thrust into the situation.

25
00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,039
Speaker 2: Yes, it was, Yeah, it was a real situation. And

26
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,720
Speaker 2: then of course New Zealand has an MMP system, so

27
00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,880
Speaker 2: it means that you don't always know who's going to

28
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,520
Speaker 2: be able to form governments. We then, after the election

29
00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,720
Speaker 2: went into negotiations for a couple of weeks. During most

30
00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,119
Speaker 2: negotiations was when I found out I was pregnant. And

31
00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:35,320
Speaker 2: then threeish days later they the small party who was

32
00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,679
Speaker 2: making a decision over who they would form a government with,

33
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:43,480
Speaker 2: chose us and I became Prime minister. Governed for five years.

34
00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,200
Speaker 1: And we know that. I do have to say, you know,

35
00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,480
Speaker 1: I said in my introduction, how you are heroic. You

36
00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,840
Speaker 1: are heroic and the world was watching you.

37
00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,480
Speaker 2: And thankfully I didn't know that at the time, which

38
00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:02,160
Speaker 2: is quite helpful. I think, you know, really snippets during COVID,

39
00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:07,040
Speaker 2: I remember the UK media covering our COVID response and

40
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,240
Speaker 2: you know, at times thinking, you know, everyone's just doing

41
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,440
Speaker 2: the best they can, you know, and you know, I

42
00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,600
Speaker 2: remember thinking, how could things that are meant to be

43
00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,760
Speaker 2: based on science, how do they become political? I feel

44
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,520
Speaker 2: the same way about climate change. You know, these issues

45
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,799
Speaker 2: where actually we have an evidence base around the problem

46
00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 2: that exists, and sure, you know, there might be different

47
00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:31,920
Speaker 2: interpretations around what the best thing is to do, but

48
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,480
Speaker 2: so often now politics creeps into things where I just

49
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,959
Speaker 2: don't think it belongs, you know, and it was nothing's

50
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,639
Speaker 2: ever universal, but in New Zealand, some of those values

51
00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,560
Speaker 2: of actually we're an island nation where we expect people

52
00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,960
Speaker 2: to do their bit to look after one another, that

53
00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:48,760
Speaker 2: mentality really shone through.

54
00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:50,600
Speaker 1: How did you meet?

55
00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,480
Speaker 2: Well, my father very proudly. I remember him arriving and

56
00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 2: announcing very proudly to everyone, don't worry, I have bought

57
00:02:58,200 --> 00:02:58,919
Speaker 2: the bread maker.

58
00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,320
Speaker 1: Sat amazing how bread was It became such a huge.

59
00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,280
Speaker 2: Thing, fascinating, fascinating. I remember, of course we had just

60
00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,799
Speaker 2: like everyone ounced, we had flower worries about flower and

61
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,799
Speaker 2: new shortages. And I remember walking home after we'd made

62
00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,800
Speaker 2: an announcement and just saying, everyone, look, Supermarke is going

63
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,400
Speaker 2: to stay open. You don't need to hoard It's going

64
00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,920
Speaker 2: to be okay. I was walking home from Parliament towards

65
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,440
Speaker 2: Premier House and as I was walking over the over bridge,

66
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,520
Speaker 2: there was this couple and they flipped open the boot

67
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,440
Speaker 2: of the car and pulled out a big five kg

68
00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,960
Speaker 2: bag of flower. And they saw me and immediately said,

69
00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,440
Speaker 2: look it was the only thing. There was only size

70
00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:40,120
Speaker 2: we could get.

71
00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 1: You know.

72
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 2: There were four of apologies I was like, it's fine,

73
00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:49,320
Speaker 2: it's fine, but it almost felt illicit, you know, But

74
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,720
Speaker 2: so we had we had we had the bread maker,

75
00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,680
Speaker 2: and of course my mum bought everything out of her

76
00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 2: store cupboard and then we would just do what others

77
00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,080
Speaker 2: do and we just cooked it on.

78
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the great concerns of COVID, many many

79
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:10,920
Speaker 1: concerned was poverty. Yeah, the effect which was awakening from

80
00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,040
Speaker 1: many many people that children who didn't go to school

81
00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,840
Speaker 1: didn't have lunch. How many families depended on the school lunch. Yeah,

82
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,600
Speaker 1: very often it was there only meal of the day. Yes,

83
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,360
Speaker 1: did you approach that?

84
00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,600
Speaker 2: We were mindful of that. I remember when we were

85
00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:30,000
Speaker 2: planning for having to be in lockdown, thinking about what

86
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,520
Speaker 2: about our rough sleeping community, how do we house them?

87
00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,560
Speaker 2: What about those who experience family violence because the stress

88
00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,560
Speaker 2: of these circumstances works as about it and for some

89
00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:46,640
Speaker 2: children their their relief from family violences school and what

90
00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:51,520
Speaker 2: about of course those on low incomes. And so we

91
00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,520
Speaker 2: thought about all of that. We increased rates about in

92
00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,680
Speaker 2: our benefit system, we were providing essentially forms of care

93
00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,600
Speaker 2: packaging for families, both of essentials but also of school

94
00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,680
Speaker 2: educational equipment, so that schooling could continue at home. We

95
00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,279
Speaker 2: used two of our TV channels to run education shows

96
00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,960
Speaker 2: in English and a Maori. I remember that constantly being

97
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,200
Speaker 2: on my mind. I was a Minister for Child Poverty Reduction,

98
00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,040
Speaker 2: so kids were always in the front of my mind

99
00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,159
Speaker 2: and so we did what we could. But it was tough.

100
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,680
Speaker 1: And is it is it food poverty in New Zealand?

101
00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes it is. We put we created a Lunches

102
00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,839
Speaker 2: in Schools program when we were in office, targeting low

103
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,680
Speaker 2: income schools and we provided universal food in schools and

104
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,880
Speaker 2: those we didn't. I hated the idea of stigma facings.

105
00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 2: So if we were going to provide a program, it

106
00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,239
Speaker 2: would be for the kids, it would be for the teachers.

107
00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,240
Speaker 2: Everyone would have access because before that that'd run, you'd

108
00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,800
Speaker 2: have kiboxes. Kids would have to go and ask and

109
00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,400
Speaker 2: I didn't want that. We did the same for period poverty,

110
00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,920
Speaker 2: so we would put we've put period products into all

111
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,640
Speaker 2: New Zealand schools because we wanted to overcome stigma around

112
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,760
Speaker 2: those issues as well. What I really want is to

113
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:13,520
Speaker 2: ensure that people have dignity, and there is dignity and

114
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,000
Speaker 2: financial security, and yes we have to have a welfare

115
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,119
Speaker 2: system that needs to be a decent welfare system, because

116
00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,320
Speaker 2: you can fall on hard times, you can lose your work,

117
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,120
Speaker 2: you can find yourself an illness, you can find yourself

118
00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,680
Speaker 2: suddenly caring for children on your own. So we need

119
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,000
Speaker 2: to have a dignified welfare system. We can't forget that

120
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,239
Speaker 2: the call work still required of lifting incomes, decent jobs,

121
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:39,720
Speaker 2: job security, decent housing,