1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Long Shot is a production of McClatchy Studios and I 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Previously on Return Man Today. I think that 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: people might suggest that there's some ill will directed toward 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: him by the police, but there was nothing that we 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: could prove. No work at the newspaper in Rockyoll, South Carolina. 6 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: Was your dad, Russell Henson, the police officer from Lancaster. 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: That was what we was saying. Somethingbody the dog and 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: not gonna imagine that. You know, football player nationwide black, 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: you know you're come back home. You know at home song. 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: If Jim Duncan, who is used to even a degree 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: of hero worship in Baltimore, comes down to South Carolina, 12 00:00:45,800 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: the potential for explosive conflict is pretty obvious. Jones Thompson spears, 13 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: It's a bright January day when I pulled into the 14 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: Salem A. M. E. Zion Church Cemetery in Heath Springs, 15 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: South Carolina, not far from Lancaster Areas series on the 16 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: day he died. I'm confident Jim Duncan's finances were a 17 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: mess and his marriage wasn't much better. Jim's NFL career 18 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: seemed pretty much over, and he moved back into the 19 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: house he bought for his mother. Everything around Jim was 20 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: a reminder of where he had once been and what 21 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: his life had become. But there are so many things 22 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: I still can't say for sure. Linda, this is brought McCormick. 23 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: How are you including where Jim was actually laid to rest? 24 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm standing in the middle of a cemetery. 25 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: I was looking for a butcher's grave. Um does this 26 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: ring a bell? It's Salem A. M. E. Zion. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay. 27 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: This church outside Lancaster is the one Jim's mother, Ellari, 28 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: grew up in. This cemetery is the one Jim's widow 29 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: hasn't been back to in decades. Elroy and Linda haven't 30 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: come back here either, not since the day Jim was buried. 31 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: Do you remember was he buried by a tree? I 32 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: don't know if you would remember that? Okay, I know 33 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: this is so long ago and it's hard to even visualize. 34 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: Those closest to Jim have believed for decades that he 35 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: never would have killed himself. But if they're right, how 36 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: did things go so wrong for the former star athlete 37 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: Inside that Lancaster police station. Could any other scenario be 38 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: more plausible than Jim simply taking his own life. Do 39 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: you remember that, like when he was buried, he had 40 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: a he had like a headstone. But I didn't know 41 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: at the time was that in that small town and 42 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: well beyond, word of my reporting was getting around. I 43 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: need to call you back later too, because I had 44 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: something weird happened over Christmas. Somebody that knows that I'm 45 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: working on this story called me and told me they've 46 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 1: found Suddenly maybe Jim's case wasn't closed just yet. From 47 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 1: the Herald McClatchy Studios and I Heart Radio. This is 48 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: return man. I'm Brett McCormick, and this is part eight 49 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: speaking from the grave. M Do you have anything to remember? 50 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: But like, um, I have some magazines and some pictures 51 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: that my wife has gotten over the years, and I 52 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: have a painting. I'll show it you. I have it 53 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: actually up in Moral, United Clyburne is showing me around 54 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: his house outside Charlotte. Elroy said that every member of 55 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: the family had been offered a scholarship seven for seven. 56 00:03:55,480 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: It's not professional and yeah, initially world was reluctant to 57 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: speak with me. Initially, many of the people close to 58 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: the story were your kids ever asking about him? I mean, 59 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: did you ever have a conferent? So, I mean, my 60 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: daughter knows who that is on the picture upstairs. She's 61 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: pretty much where. You know, her uncle playing football for 62 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: the Colts and you know, the broadest story of the year. 63 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: You know, as she gets a little older, I'm sure 64 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: she may ask some questions the more Cold champs to 65 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: the American Conference, the Dallas Cowboys champs to the National Conference. 66 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: Over the past few years, I've been asked by Jim's 67 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: friends and family, by my editors and people i've interviewed, 68 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: how I think Jim died. The answer is, I'm not sure. 69 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: Jim was elusive in life as a kick returner, as 70 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: a brother, a husband, and a friend. And it should 71 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: be a simple question to answer what happened in that 72 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: police station. But I can't prove anything. George Lloyd so 73 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: he's the only one alive. That's no surprise to Morrow. 74 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: So George Lloyd had been at the Lancaster Police Department 75 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: for two weeks. He was working the desk and he 76 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: told me that Butch walked in the police lieutenant was 77 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: going through the mail, and that he said, can I 78 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: help you? And then he pulled a gun and stepped 79 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: back and shot him. The story has been set for 80 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: a long time. I mean, no one's changing that story. 81 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: I guess you said you can't dispute people that were there. 82 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: But at the same time, still some of this stuff 83 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,559 Speaker 1: goes on. So what have we done? And forty six years? 84 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: So why bother? That's the follow up question I always get. 85 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,799 Speaker 1: Why does it matter that a little known former football 86 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: player died in his hometown police station and we're not 87 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: really sure how Why put Jim's family and others involved 88 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: through all of it? Again? I think really, like, you know, 89 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: multiple people have asked me, mostly white people have asked me, 90 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: what are you going into this forward? And like why 91 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,119 Speaker 1: are you bringing it back up? Alis and I talked 92 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: a lot about that. A lot of people who have 93 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: said over and over, man, if this happened nowadays, like 94 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: it would have been so different, you know, and and 95 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: that's kind of upsetting to me. Alice declined to lend 96 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: her voice to this podcast, but we spoke for nearly 97 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: four hours, the first time Alice has ever spoken at 98 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: length about the man she ultimately knew for just a 99 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: little over a year, or about the tension with Jim's 100 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: family that she thinks kept them all from demanding answers together. 101 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: The interesting thing to me, nobody had ever talked to 102 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: you that reported on this story. The first reason I 103 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: think this story is important is that, regardless of how 104 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: Jim died, his life is worth celebrating. I was surprised 105 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: and honored in a way that through my research I 106 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: was able to share things with Jim's family that they've 107 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: never known about him. Oh that's about really to gain 108 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: the sucking half underway this zone YouTube m I was 109 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: able to show moral highlights of his brother's NFL career 110 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: that he hadn't seen until we sat down together, Like 111 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: he just looks so much faster than everybody. Nor had 112 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: he heard many of these stories from Jim's teammates. Bob 113 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: Grant told me a lot of stuff that was his 114 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 1: professional friend or we do a lot about him. People 115 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: in Lancaster remember the man who wrote a hit song 116 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: Ranquility based here the ankle has landed in their hometown, 117 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: Astronaut rocket Point Granquility. We caught the on the ground. 118 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: You gotta bunch of guys about to turn blue. We're 119 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: breathing again. Thank a lot, but Moral's very name is 120 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: one of the only reminders that this former milltown also 121 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: produced a Super Bowl champ. This is the Orange Bowl. 122 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: It would be Jam eighty thousand fans to day Super 123 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: Bowl Day. Do you feel like he's been forgotten in Leicester? Um? 124 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: What do you know? Generation has come through from It's 125 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: just old time. Floyd White was one of Jim's coaches 126 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: at bar Street High School. He told me there was 127 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: once a corner store in the black part of town 128 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: that had a painting of gem on it. But that 129 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: store was demolished long ago and the mural went with it. 130 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: We had like up Gay Street down and when you 131 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: down now today there's a small history museum in the 132 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: basement of that same courthouse where Jim was married and 133 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: where the inquest announced how he died. There says we're 134 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,719 Speaker 1: about to go on. A volunteer was working at the 135 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: museum when I visited. We're doing a video in a 136 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: podcast and a story on Jim Duncan. Do you know 137 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: Jim Duncan. Yeah. The museum has exhibits about Confederate soldiers 138 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: and ox for local Vietnam vets and memorabilia from Lancaster's past. Yeah, yeah, okay, 139 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: but there's nothing at all there about the man who 140 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: rose from a shotgun house in the poorest part of 141 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: that town to celebrate an NFL title mcil round defense 142 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: the Bimar the right quarterback Jim Drunk of number thirty five, 143 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: who was the top cook off re turned mad in 144 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: the American cop. We may never truly know how or 145 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: why Jim died, but his life should be remembered. When 146 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: I look back now and I'm like, okay, we'll see 147 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: this professional player came out of the college fast, and 148 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: You're like, man, you never know where that could have gone. 149 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: Here's moral again. Yeah, So when when did you start 150 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: learning about but You's death? I would say I hadn't 151 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: really learned about his death. We didn't really have talks 152 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: about this. This is literally something that we didn't talk 153 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: about at the end of the day. Is it something 154 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: for comfort or is it going to actually make a difference. 155 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: Someone somewhere either died with it or is going to 156 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: die with it um. And I think that's kind of 157 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: the gist that you know, I've gotten over the years 158 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: that you're never gonna get anything out of it. And 159 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: I don't mean that to deter you from doing what 160 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: you're doing. But I mean when you have that oh, 161 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: I'm sure I'm not based on your list. I won't 162 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 1: be the last. We'll be back in a moment, just 163 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: before game time. And believe me, it's been a tough 164 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: ticket for this game. They've been scoffing then for over 165 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: a hundred dollars in the hotel lobbies and around Miami. 166 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: Historians in Lancaster, may Or may not reclaim Jim's past, 167 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,719 Speaker 1: but other see Jim's life as a lesson for the 168 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: present and guidance for the future. That's the second reason 169 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 1: I think this story is so important. Ballamar will kick 170 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: off from your ride. That will be saving ellery. Duncan 171 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: lived in the house at Isom Street for decades after 172 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: her eldest son's death. Once she died in two thousand one, 173 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: a few distant cousins lived there on and off, but 174 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: then the house set empty for years until recently being sold. 175 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: One summer day in one of our producers, Davin Coburn 176 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: drove past the house and he saw a car on 177 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: the driveway, so he rang the doorbell. The guy's name 178 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: is Jim Duncan and talked with the new owner about 179 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: the man who used to live there. He played for 180 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: the Baltimore Colts, and he actually died in the Lancaster 181 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 1: police station. Camelia Funderberg had never heard of Jim, and 182 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: she declined to appear in this podcast, but she knew 183 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: instantly what she thought of the official account of his death. 184 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: She said, quote, they're saying he walked into the police station, 185 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: it took a revolver and committed suicide. I don't believe 186 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: that for a former officer like Seth Stoughton, who is 187 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: now professor of law at the University of South Carolina, 188 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: that kind of reaction stops him cold. I asked her 189 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: if she knew anything about this case, and I would 190 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: like to just play you her reaction. In fact, it 191 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: did stop him cold. We played the conversation for him 192 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: and asked for his thoughts. Yeah, that's she had never 193 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: heard the story before. That sum total of her knowledge 194 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: about this was you outlining the facts for And it's fascinating, 195 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: isn't it, And a little frightening that her immediate conclusion is, 196 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: I don't believe that it's not completely crazy right, like 197 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: people absolutely have in the course of American his story 198 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: walked up to officers and attempted to wrestle their gun 199 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: out of their holsters. So why not believe it? I 200 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: would hazard a guess it's because either she doesn't trust 201 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: police now, which may be part of the story, or 202 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: she thinks about what policing was like at the time 203 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties and says there's no way that 204 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to trust that institution. For Stoughton, and he 205 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: hopes the law enforcement community as a whole, the importance 206 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: of rebuilding that trust is a lesson we should all 207 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: learn from Jim's death. There were few, if any, verified 208 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,599 Speaker 1: facts that we could use to believe either story, So 209 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: why would a substantial portion of the community believe one 210 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: story not the other? In Stoton gave a ted X 211 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: talk about that specific issue in policing. Lack of trust 212 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: had primed the community to believe the most negative version 213 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: of events related in media reports, largely because of an 214 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: adversarial agency culture that emphasized aggressive of enforcement oriented approach 215 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: to policing. But he wasn't talking about Lancaster. He was 216 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: talking about Michael Brown. Almost forty five years after Jim's death, 217 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: there is growing outrage tonight after an unarmed African American 218 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: teenager were shot and killed by police in the St. 219 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: Louis suburb of Ferguson, Missouri. Stowton told us the fact 220 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: that we wouldn't have known the difference is exactly why 221 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: stories like Jim's matter. My initial reaction was, if we 222 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: changed the date, we could be having a conversation about 223 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: the Jim Duggan shooting from a year ago. There are 224 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: questions about transparency and accountability. There are questions about whether 225 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: there was a sufficient investigation. The issues that it raises 226 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: are exactly the same as a lot of the issues 227 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: that we see and a lot of the concerns that 228 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: are brought to a head by the Walter Scott shooting 229 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: in North Charleston, or the Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson, 230 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: or the timor Rice shooting in Cleveland and so on. 231 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: There are even more modern parallels to Jim's story. Did anything. 232 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: We're gonna begin tonight with the NFL stand on players 233 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: who choose not to. Today, some of the most visible 234 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: and polarizing protesters of systemic racism and law enforcement are 235 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: NFL players. Following the lead of quarterback Colin Kaepernick, NFL 236 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: players began to kneel during the anthem to protest police 237 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: brutality and racism in America. Four years of systemic oppression 238 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: that slavery, Jim Crow new gym, Crow mass and casceration. 239 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: I just felt the need to say something about Eric 240 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: Reid is an NFL veteran. He's a defensive back, one 241 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: of the same positions Jim played back when Reid was 242 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: with the San Francisco forty Niners. He was the first 243 00:15:52,200 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: player to kneel alongside Colin Kaepernick. Read played for the 244 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: Carolina Panthers in nineteen not far from Lancaster. My colleagues 245 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: at the Charlotte Observer asked him about being one of 246 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: the faces of a modern civil rights movement, as we 247 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: said when we started calling, and uh, nothing will change 248 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: unless we talk about it. So we're gonna continue to 249 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: talk about it. We're gonna continue to hold America to 250 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: the standard that it says on paper that we're all 251 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: created equal, because it's not that we run now. I'm 252 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: a black man in America. I grew up black in America. 253 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: You can't tell me that what I've experienced and what 254 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: I've seen is not true. Those shadows of the past 255 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: can loom especially large for black men who grew up 256 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: in South Carolina. Somebody's got to have some sense and 257 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: as well, and a lot of right folk have demonstrated 258 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: eloquently that they don't have no sense, and roy should 259 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: we be that way? Martin Luther King Jr. Gave this 260 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: speech in Charles Austin in nineteen seven. Reason I'm not 261 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: gonna preach a doctrine of black supremacy is because I'm 262 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: so sick and todd a white supremacy. I still feel 263 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: that the sixties, in the seventies and eighties and civil rights. 264 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: It's not a historical event, It's an ongoing event. Rosie 265 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: Gilliam is the bar Street alum whose father coached Jim 266 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: in high school and then college. He's remained connected to 267 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: Lancaster's black community for decades. I don't think layer is 268 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: anything unusual about Lancaster. If you took away the date 269 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: and time, could you imagine that happening today? And the 270 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: answer is yes, you can. There is, of course, the 271 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: ultimate reason to tell this story. All right, My name 272 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: is I work at the newspaper in rock Hill, the 273 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: Search for Closure. I'm doing a story that I came 274 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: across your name. Maybe that's confirmation of the official narrative 275 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: or a different sort of justice. At the very least, 276 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: I hoped they would mean a fuller understanding for everyone 277 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: of why Jim's life came to an end. And late 278 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: in my work on this podcast, I learned I wasn't 279 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: alone in that mission. My name is Policy Johnson. I 280 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: am Professor of Law at Surracuse University College of Law. 281 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: I am also the director of the Cold Case Justice 282 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: Initiative at Turkish University College of Law. Our work is 283 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: to assist families and speaking information and justice and accountability 284 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: for racially motivated killings of their loved ones that have 285 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: not been solved and no one has been held to 286 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: answer for those crimes. We reached out to the Cold 287 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: Case Justice Initiative or c c j I after one 288 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: of my conversations with Elroy, you know, the Dollar contact us. Yeah, 289 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: wanted to reopen the case. I don't think we need 290 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: to put her through So it was when she was alife, 291 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: so other than the nineties. Yea, a spokesman for the 292 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: Lancashire chapter of the n double A CP, told us 293 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: they never launched any sort of formal investigation into Jim's death, 294 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: but I thought they might not have been the only 295 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: organization to try. Some of you may be familiar with 296 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: the Emmett Till case. Any of you familiar with the 297 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: least the name Emmett Till. They're in Syracuse. A rotating 298 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: team of about two dozen law school students each semester 299 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: has allowed c c j I to research hundreds of 300 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: possible Civil Rights era crimes, particularly murders where there's no 301 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: statute of limitations. If someone is responsible for taking someone 302 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: else life or for propagating a story that is not accurate, 303 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: you know, if they are shielding other people who participated 304 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: and so are responsible. The families deserved to know that, 305 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: whole communities deserve to know that. You know, those things 306 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: were done as messages to entire Black community, and so 307 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: the closure, so to speak, goes beyond any particular family member, 308 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: any particular community. This is a demand for justice for 309 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: the entire American society. Johnson told us. The answer was no, 310 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,239 Speaker 1: c c j I had not looked into Jim's death, well, 311 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: not yet, anyway, His mother made me till Mobley had 312 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 1: insisted that his casket remained open. Now let me tell 313 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: you that the next slide is very graphic um the 314 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: coronavirus disrupted everything, including campus life at Syracuse. But having 315 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: read the few public new reports of Jim's death, Johnson 316 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: told me that as c c j I adapts workflows 317 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: moving forward, Jim's case could become a real focus for 318 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: her team. It was very interesting to see the different 319 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: accounts about what was going on, you know, for Mr 320 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: Duncan with respect to drugs, and that needn't be you know, 321 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: really here or there, as opposed to the most pivotal 322 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: part of this, and that is when he goes into 323 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: the police station. I mean, it's really curious to me, 324 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: for instance, that he walked in there and didn't say 325 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: anything to anyone. It just doesn't quite made sense to me. 326 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: It has always been the families who have insisted that 327 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: the world, that government officials, that the entities and the 328 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: apparatus of society and law enforcement take notice of these events, 329 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: that the lives of their loved ones, of their children matter. 330 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: Johnson co founded c c j I in two thousand 331 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: and eight along with Syracuse professor America Janice McDonald. The 332 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: Herald has not collaborated on this research with c c 333 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: j I, but Johnson said this reporting could be a 334 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: new jumping off point for their legal investigation, and that 335 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: teams like hers can sometimes unearth information news organizations cannot. 336 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: There can be parallels, but you know, sometimes our training 337 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: as lawyers may lead us to find that something raises 338 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: an issue for us that journalists may not pick up on. Now, 339 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: you know, we ourselves are not prosecutors, and so what 340 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: we try to do is put that information in some 341 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: kind of reports, and if it looks as though there 342 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: was something, you know, criminal involved, then we present that 343 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 1: to the relevant authorities. They may be local prosecutors, they 344 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: may be federals or state prosecutors, you know, but as 345 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: attorneys we kind of speak that language and understand what 346 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: kinds of things would be important for them to take 347 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: that and say maybe we'll convene a grand jury or 348 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: take this at that point. At the same time, some 349 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: of the people I spoke with for this story are 350 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: not pushing to reinvestigate Jim's death or pursue any sort 351 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: of legal action. The past has to become the past 352 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: at some point at a lesson base that includes some 353 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: of Jim's good friends like Bob Grant, Speedies death is 354 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: suspect it's a very sad event, but we have to 355 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: let go at some point. If we dwell too long 356 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: on some of the bad history, we're going to end 357 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: up having a bad future. So clearly, for some the 358 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: past really is better left alone see it. But others 359 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: told me they agreed to be interviewed because they'll never 360 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: find clue sure with so many open questions, and that 361 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: the chance for answers, whatever they may be, was worth 362 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: the pain of asking one last time. Well, it took 363 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: him a while because I never would have said, Okay, 364 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: do you I met with Elroy and Linda Duncan on 365 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: several occasions. The final time Elroy cried from the first 366 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: question to the last, which was a great and he 367 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: was on twenty six. Here I am just turned seventy 368 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: years old to the day. I still don't believe that 369 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: he killed us. So I don't believe it. We'll be 370 00:24:51,760 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: right back, I am. It looks what's HAPs back at 371 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: the Salem A. M. E. Zion Church cemetery. I've searched 372 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: for Jim's grave for more than half an hour, but 373 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 1: here's Duncan in the neighborhood. Maybe some of the headstones 374 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: are pressure washed with finely etched names and lifespans. Some 375 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: of the graves are marked only with a piece of stone. 376 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: We're a bit of concrete sticking out of the ground. 377 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: A lot of these don't really have names on them. 378 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: Eventually I call Linda, Linda, this is brought McCormick. How 379 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: are you, How are you? I'm good, I'm good. I'm 380 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: standing in the middle of a cemetery. I update her 381 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: on my research, as I do whenever we talk, and 382 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: I tell her that apparently word had gotten around about 383 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: my work. Somebody that knows that I'm working on this 384 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: story called me and told me they found some stuff 385 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: at an antique shop in Lexington, South Carolina. It was 386 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: like an autograph picture of butch Um, I guess, signed 387 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: by himself. For three years, this search has been a 388 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: tale of new leads, work at the newspaper in Rockyo, 389 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: South Carolina, and then trails that go cold. Unfortunately, the 390 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: year that you're looking for, along with many other years, 391 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: is missing, just tally missing. But the antique store is 392 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: a valuable lead, if only because Jim's family has almost 393 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: no physical reminders of him. The guy that owned the 394 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: antique store thought he had more stuff from Butch. I 395 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: think somehow he had acquired it. So there's the painting 396 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: of Jim and Moral's home and a few old news 397 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 1: clips they've collected, but no one knows where jim super 398 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: Bowl ring is now, and Elroy and Linda lost their 399 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: family photos in a house fire years ago. All right, well, 400 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: I'll get in touch with you later. Thanks again, all 401 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: right bye. Listeners of this podcast may have also noticed 402 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: that we've never heard from Jim himself. That's because I've 403 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: never heard his voice and hip on a great play 404 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: by the NCA. As many times times as I've asked 405 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: NFL teams and radio stations and TV networks if they 406 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: have historical footage of him, there were a good good Bob, 407 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: but dark one running up bottle duck him a great 408 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,719 Speaker 1: good Bob break on her. For the thirty and as 409 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: many hours as I've spent looking through news archives, I 410 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: haven't found anything with his voice. I finally just asked 411 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: Floyd White if he could describe it. Did he have 412 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: like a like, any distinctive accent, just normal voice and 413 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: being from broken home? You know, I was from broken home. 414 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: I could read things and you know, think like that, 415 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: It's possible we might never get concrete answers. Oh, do 416 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: you know her? His wife? I'm sure I met her 417 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: a couple of times when I was infant, But in 418 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: talking to Moral, I wondered if there might at least 419 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: be a chance for reconnection. I drove to Greenville and 420 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: met her and talked to her for a couple hours, 421 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: because that was a pretty as much as Jim's family 422 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: and I talked about him these past few years, I 423 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: found myself telling them almost as much about each other. 424 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: Apparently she and Elary did not get along super well. 425 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: I told Moral stories about Alice. She was like twenty 426 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: years old when they got married. I mean, she was 427 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: basically a kid. Then I told Alice stories about Moral. 428 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: It would have been very interesting for you to hear 429 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: how he looked at it, because he's fourteen years younger 430 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: than any of the other siblings. I was like, well, 431 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: people ask you where your name comes from, and he's like, yeah, 432 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: that's the main time that I think about him. Alice 433 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: was most excited to hear about Moral's daughter, the youngest 434 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: addition to the family she was once part of, and 435 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: the girl who would have been her niece. Oh, his 436 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: daughter is eleven. I guess where middle name is. I 437 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: forgot about this ella. In the years since Jim's death, 438 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: his family suffered their tragedies. Two more of his siblings 439 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: died before reaching old age, and those who are still alive, 440 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: who are all tremendous athletes, at one point, haven't been 441 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: able to outrun Time was at Maryland State now that 442 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: John but we know did get to play against each other. 443 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: Elroy was a star quarterback at Johnson C. Smith University 444 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: in Charlotte. He took some big hits and games too. 445 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: It's hard fil meter room on the last day, other 446 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: than that he was killed and the way that he 447 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: was killed. These days, when Elroy loses a thought, Linda 448 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: lovingly calls him CTE and then gently steers him back 449 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: to the conversation. Horner thing he left his car park 450 00:29:49,160 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: in front of the Lancaster News. That's news. A still 451 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: lives near Greenville. She went on to have three children, 452 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: and we were joined in our conversations by her second husband, 453 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: Bobby Casting. She found some relief in our talk about 454 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: CTE and the idea that a fundamental disconnect between Jim's 455 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: mind and body could have driven some of his behavior. 456 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: That the things she saw weren't a true reflection of 457 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: the man she loved. Outside Salem a M. E. Zion Church, 458 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: there are headstones and markers from mc olwain's and Blackman's 459 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: and Thompson's m but nothing for James Edward Duncan. H 460 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: I thought back to that poem Alice told me about 461 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: let others cheer the winning man. There's one I hold worthwhile, 462 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,719 Speaker 1: tis he who does the best he can, then loses 463 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: with a smile. From my research, it appears that the 464 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: poem is called The Cheerful Loser, was written by a 465 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: man named Arthur W. Beer. It seems to have been 466 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: first published in nine ten eleven in a magazine called 467 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: The Nautilus. There's a verse that follows the one Alice remembers. 468 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: It goes beaten he is, but not to stay down 469 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: with the rank and file. That man will win some 470 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: other day who loses with a smile. Later, I was 471 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: told by Elroy that Jim was buried without a headstone 472 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: because back in Nino the family couldn't afford one. Well, 473 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: that's about ready to get the second half underway. Date 474 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: public called Jim Duncan. So in the end I probably 475 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: did stand next to Jim Duncan's final resting place. Duncan 476 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: up to the fifteen, with plenty to the outside, but 477 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: even there in a graveyard on the outskirts of a 478 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: small town in South Carolina, the Return Man is elusive 479 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: once more. I'm Brett McCormick. This has been long shot 480 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: Season one Return Man. It's a production of The Herald, 481 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: McClatchy Studios and I Heart Radio. Return End was produced 482 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: by Matt Walsh, Carrott, Taber, Kata Stevens, Rachel Wise, and 483 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: executive producer Davin Coburn. The executive producer for I Heart 484 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: Radio is Sean Titone. Cliff Harrington is the executive editor 485 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: of The Herald. Cynthia Dubos is mcclatchy's managing editor for 486 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: Audience Engagement. McClatchy Studios was created by Jonathan Forsyth and 487 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: special thanks to Gena Smith, J. Pilgreen, Eddie Alvarez, Gabby Garner, 488 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: and Sherry chisen All. For lots more on this story, 489 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: go to Harold online dot com slash return Man. If 490 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: you have any additional information about Jim Duncan's life or death, 491 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: email us at return Man at Harold online dot com. 492 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: To continue supporting this kind of work, visit Harold Online 493 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: dot com, slash podcasts and consider a digital subscription. And 494 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: for more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i 495 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 496 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: your favorite shows. H