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Speaker 1: By Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.

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Speaker 1: Last year, Julie Brown of the Miami Herald conceived, reported,

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Speaker 1: and wrote one of the most explosive criminal justice stories

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Speaker 1: in recent memory. She tracked how the US Justice Department

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Speaker 1: shut down an FBI investigation that may have been on

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Speaker 1: the verge of discovering the full extent of a child

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Speaker 1: sex trafficking operation run by billionaire Jeffrey Epstein. The U

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Speaker 1: s attorney in charge of that case was none other

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Speaker 1: than alex A Costa, now the United States Secretary of

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Speaker 1: Labor under Donald Trump. As punishment for recruiting underage girls

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Speaker 1: to perform sex acts at his Palm Beach mansion, Epstein

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Speaker 1: spent barely a year in the local lock up. With

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Speaker 1: a liberal daily work release, Julie Brown found many many

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Speaker 1: or victims who had not spoken up and revealed the

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Speaker 1: extent of acustas capitulation in the face of Epstein's high

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Speaker 1: powered defense lawyers. For her crucial work, she's been given

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Speaker 1: a Poke Award for Justice Reporting. While she was in

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Speaker 1: New York to receive it, she joined me on stage

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Speaker 1: at w n YCS Green Space. I had so much

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Speaker 1: for coming um and thank you to Julie Brown for

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Speaker 1: coming to do the show. You first started reporting on

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Speaker 1: this case when um a year and a half ago.

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Speaker 1: But I knew about the case for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and you got involved in the case. Why because I

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Speaker 1: was I did a lot of human rights reporting for

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Speaker 1: the Miami Herald. I covered the prisons, and I knew

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Speaker 1: that Florida was one of the states that had a

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Speaker 1: huge sex trafficking problem. And I always everything that I

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Speaker 1: read was they were going after little cases. But I

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Speaker 1: knew that there were some big fish, so to speak,

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Speaker 1: in Florida, that we're probably behind sex. I just you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's just reasonable to think that there are

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Speaker 1: uh this it's a big money making operation. It's it's

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Speaker 1: all over the country, all over the world, really human

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Speaker 1: trafficking and sex trafficking. There really was nobody pursuing this

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Speaker 1: at all except for lawyers. And that was one of

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Speaker 1: the other things that didn't treat me about this case.

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Speaker 1: You know, you would read about it and then you say,

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Speaker 1: you know, how does this happen and why isn't anybody

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Speaker 1: standing up yelling and screaming. But the case has been

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Speaker 1: ongoing for quite a while. Before you got involved, Well,

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Speaker 1: it actually had quieted down. I compare what I did

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Speaker 1: in this case to what a cold case detective does.

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Speaker 1: Let's say you have someone who disappeared, and the detectives

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Speaker 1: come in and they find a suspect, but they can't

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Speaker 1: prove it, and then they put it all away in

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Speaker 1: a box. And then somebody comes along who maybe just

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Speaker 1: got hired by the police department, and they just decide

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Speaker 1: that they're going to, uh, hey, I'm going to take

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Speaker 1: a look at this, and when time goes by. I

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Speaker 1: know this also from other stories I've covered, Other people

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Speaker 1: come out of the woodwork, or there might be people

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Speaker 1: that didn't want to talk when it happened. We're afraid

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Speaker 1: for one reason or another, and time has gone by

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Speaker 1: or or what happened right, And and these girls were

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Speaker 1: at the time, you know, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old.

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Speaker 1: Now they're in they're only thirties. Actually, what really launched

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Speaker 1: the piece was when Alexander Acosta, who was the prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: the federal prosecutor in Miami who handled this case, got

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Speaker 1: nominated by President Trump to be Labor Secretary. I thought

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Speaker 1: I knew about the case, and I thought, well, let's

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Speaker 1: see what happened which involves to some degree prosecuting human trafficking. Right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was really the most the biggest scandal

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Speaker 1: of his career because he gave uh he really let

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Speaker 1: him almost walk away from this crime, and not only

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Speaker 1: walk away from it, but they covered it up. They

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Speaker 1: they really made sure that no one really knew that

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Speaker 1: know the scope of this crime. Now for those people

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Speaker 1: who don't know a lot of the details of the case,

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Speaker 1: so I want to start with that which is described

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Speaker 1: for people, who is Epstein and what was he charged with?

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Speaker 1: And what was the eventual outcome of the prosecution that

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Speaker 1: Acosta oversaw? Right, Well, he was a billionaire financier and

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Speaker 1: he had a hedge fund. He had a hedge fund,

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Speaker 1: and he dabbled in a lot of other financing things

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Speaker 1: like at one point he wanted to take over pan

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Speaker 1: Am Airlines. There was a lot of different projects that

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Speaker 1: he invested money in and he made a lot obviously

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Speaker 1: made a lot of money. He owned uh two jets,

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Speaker 1: and he owned homes in New Mexico, the largest single

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Speaker 1: residents here in Manhattan, home in Palm Beach, home in

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Speaker 1: um Paris. Uh So, he was extremely wealthy, very smart.

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Speaker 1: You know, he was a mathematician and no Bill Prize

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Speaker 1: winning scientists were in his circle in New York. He

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Speaker 1: grew up in New York. He didn't finish college, but

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Speaker 1: he ended up getting a job at the Dalton School

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Speaker 1: uh teaching mathematics and there through the students parents, he

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Speaker 1: ended up working for Bear Star and he sort of

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Speaker 1: left under mysterious circumstances there um and then opened his own, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, financial firm. And during the course of the trial,

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Speaker 1: was it did it become was it exposed or was

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Speaker 1: it revealed? How long he had been doing this activity

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Speaker 1: with young girls. He'd been doing this ongoing and he

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Speaker 1: had people helping him. It was very organized. Described the operation.

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Speaker 1: It was like something if you saw a movie about it,

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Speaker 1: you would think, oh, yeah, right, this is really going

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Speaker 1: to happen. But it's exactly what he did. He had

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Speaker 1: a lot of money and he had a lot of

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Speaker 1: people around him. And what he he liked massages. So

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Speaker 1: what he would do is he had people go out

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Speaker 1: to various areas well. Initially it was like spas. Like

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Speaker 1: in fact, one of the women that he recruited was

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Speaker 1: from our lago, which is right around the corner from

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Speaker 1: his home, uh in Palm Beach. And once he got

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Speaker 1: his hold on a couple of the girls, what he

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Speaker 1: would say to them is, you bring me a couple

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Speaker 1: more girls, and I'll give you the same amount of money.

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Speaker 1: So he would be paying that. They were paid for services, yes,

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Speaker 1: from massage, from massages, and then and then they were

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Speaker 1: paid as recruiters to bring in more people, right, and

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Speaker 1: the recruiters would recruit more, and it just went on

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Speaker 1: and on the pyramid, and it kept growing and growing

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Speaker 1: until they got to be by your estimation, how many

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Speaker 1: young women were coming in and out of that house

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Speaker 1: over time, I mean it had to be over at least,

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Speaker 1: and they got like if I read copy and shopping

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Speaker 1: malls and different. Because what happened was once he got

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Speaker 1: his foothold into one of the high schools there, one

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Speaker 1: girl would tell another girl. And these were girls who

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Speaker 1: came from uh. You know, most people think of Palm

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Speaker 1: Beaches everybody's wealthy, but there really is. West Palm Beach

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Speaker 1: is a very struggling blue collar area, and there were

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Speaker 1: girls who lived in vulnerable situations where they were in uh,

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Speaker 1: one step away from homelessness. One girl told me for example.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've been wearing the same pair of shoes

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Speaker 1: for three years, and I thought, I'm gonna go give

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Speaker 1: him a massage. I'm going to get some money, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be abby to puy a pair of shoes,

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Speaker 1: which is really heartbreaking actually every time I think about that.

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Speaker 1: At that I met a young woman once on the

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Speaker 1: set of the film who had been a prostitute, and

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Speaker 1: she said, and every time I had sex with somebody

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Speaker 1: for money, all I kept seeing was the new drapes

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Speaker 1: in my mother's house, and oh my god, what a

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Speaker 1: You know. The other thing is he sort of led

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Speaker 1: them to believe that he was going to help them

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Speaker 1: out of their misery, you know, like you're beautiful, I'll

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Speaker 1: get you. Yeah. And he had people, He had people,

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Speaker 1: you know, I have people that kind of thing, and

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Speaker 1: he did. He didn't know some people, and actually some

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Speaker 1: of them did. A couple of them did become actresses,

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Speaker 1: you know, And so he had some contacts, and he

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Speaker 1: led a lot of them to believe that that I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get you out of this. And I don't

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Speaker 1: think of any of those actresses one in Oscar. They

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Speaker 1: would thank Jeffrey Epstein to their acceptance. Probably not. Probably

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Speaker 1: did other victims come forward who wanted to make charges

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Speaker 1: against Epstein for events that predated Palm Beach. Yes, but

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Speaker 1: the problem is a statue of limitations. So there's there's

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Speaker 1: quite a number of girls in that category, and there's

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Speaker 1: really not a lot they can do because his activities

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Speaker 1: in that regard confined to Palm Beach or in New York.

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Speaker 1: And from the women that I interviewed, he did it everywhere.

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Speaker 1: He had an island in the Caribbean. Uh, he would

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Speaker 1: send one of the girls or probably more than one,

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Speaker 1: but one that I know of who I interviewed out

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Speaker 1: to for example, he had the island, so they would

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Speaker 1: take a furry or helicopter from St. Thomas. What she

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Speaker 1: told me was we would go to the nightclubs in St.

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Speaker 1: Thomas and I would just bring him more girls. And Uh,

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Speaker 1: there was Sarah Kellen who was a scheduler. What did

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Speaker 1: she schedule? She scheduled the girls. Did you interview her? No,

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Speaker 1: she hasn't spoken to anybody, and she got immunity under

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Speaker 1: the non prosecution agreement that he worked out. So she's

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Speaker 1: off the hook. A lot of people are off the hook.

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Speaker 1: We don't even know what immunity for what she did,

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Speaker 1: which only led to a thirteen month jail sentenced for

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Speaker 1: him with for him and worked released the whole time.

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Speaker 1: They gave her that for some little Yeah, the person

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Speaker 1: you did interview who was a recruiter for him, how

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Speaker 1: did they strike you? What? What did they was a

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Speaker 1: man or woman? Well, you know, remember a lot of

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Speaker 1: the girls were recruiters for him too, and uh so

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Speaker 1: they you know, it's very sad to think about how

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Speaker 1: this changed their lives. Imagine being fourteen years old and

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Speaker 1: you know, you basically don't have any place to live,

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Speaker 1: and you start doing this and you're fourteen, and you know,

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Speaker 1: now you're thirty and you look back on it, and

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Speaker 1: and it's very painful to watch how much they blamed themselves.

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Speaker 1: They're very ashamed, and they blamed themselves for the other

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Speaker 1: girls that they brought into it, and they just didn't

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Speaker 1: understand the ramific A lot of the people that you're

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Speaker 1: referring to were very young, whether they were uh you know,

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Speaker 1: involved in the massage and other related sex activities with

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Speaker 1: Epstein or the recruitment. Were there some grown women and men,

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Speaker 1: particularly women, I'm curious who were recruiters or we're helping

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Speaker 1: to kind of run the operations. Who should have known better. Well,

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Speaker 1: what he did was though when girls got older, he

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Speaker 1: didn't want them anymore, so then they turned into you know,

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Speaker 1: they stayed with him and started doing it. So we

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Speaker 1: don't really know those older women. We don't really know

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Speaker 1: how they got wrapped up into it. They could have

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Speaker 1: very well been trafficked the same way the younger girls

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Speaker 1: were at a younger age, but he kept them on

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Speaker 1: painted picture of you will of who Epstein you think is?

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Speaker 1: And why did he do this? Because apparently I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 1: he had a woman coming in and out of the house,

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Speaker 1: and he was having sex with multiple women a day, yes,

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Speaker 1: like three times a day sometimes. Correct. What did you

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Speaker 1: what kind of of a picture did you get at him? Well,

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Speaker 1: obviously he had some kind of an illness to be

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Speaker 1: doing something like that. And I think that the biggest

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Speaker 1: thing that I came across from reading everything and all

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Speaker 1: the research that I did, was he really felt that

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Speaker 1: he was above the law. He just seemed to know

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Speaker 1: from the get go that he was going to get

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Speaker 1: away with it. Uh. He pressured, intimidated, bullied, hired the

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Speaker 1: best lawyers that his money could buy. And when those

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Speaker 1: lawyers didn't give him what he wanted, he hired more lawyers.

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Speaker 1: He hired politically connected people. He pressured the girls, He

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Speaker 1: hired private investigators who followed their parents. Uh. He deposed

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Speaker 1: the girls and got her medical records, saying that she

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Speaker 1: had had abortions, called her parents who were Catholic, and

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Speaker 1: asked her Catholic parents when the goal was to attack

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Speaker 1: the victim? Oh yes, and not only just the victims.

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Speaker 1: Actually the police who had been investigated were followed, the

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Speaker 1: prosecutors were pressured. And I think that's what makes this

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Speaker 1: a story, really is every step of the way with

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Speaker 1: the criminal justice system he powered his way through to

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Speaker 1: basically get away with some of the people that you

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Speaker 1: some of the lawyers involved in this case. There's a

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Speaker 1: left court and Derschowitz and and even ken Star. I

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Speaker 1: struggled to think that people at that level. I struggled

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Speaker 1: to think that people of that reputation, at least in

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Speaker 1: terms of their skills as attorneys or just in this

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Speaker 1: for a deep pockets litigant and and fees. I wonder

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Speaker 1: what else potentially were you led to believe there might

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Speaker 1: be some think, like Star, for example, I was kind

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Speaker 1: of taking it back because of course, here's Star who

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Speaker 1: made his reputation going after Clinton for sex crimes, and

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Speaker 1: here he's defending Epstein. But with people like Dershowitz and

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Speaker 1: left Court and Star, what what do you think? What else?

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Speaker 1: What else do you think was behind it? If anything?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to know. It was a different

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Speaker 1: First of all, it was a different time. It was

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Speaker 1: well before the me too movement. Uh And what does

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Speaker 1: that mean? Essentially? Well, I'm not excusing any of it,

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Speaker 1: but I think that they sort of thought people can

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Speaker 1: still get away with Yeah. Yeah, And here's the big

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Speaker 1: thing about it. Uh, they didn't care about the girls.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these were they felt these were throwaway girls.

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Speaker 1: These were prostitutes. Uh they you know, That's essentially what

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Speaker 1: What was was Epstein's defense, correct which he said, none

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Speaker 1: of these women that came, they came as prostitutes, were

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Speaker 1: there for a reason. I paid them. If you want

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Speaker 1: to get me on a prostitution rap, that's one thing.

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Speaker 1: But to say I was involved in sex trafficking, which

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Speaker 1: is what they try to do, he said, that's not accurate.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to contend that they knew why they were there,

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Speaker 1: They knew what they were there to get paid for sex.

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Speaker 1: And then he also, if I'm not mistaken, you could

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Speaker 1: you can uh highlight this for us that he tried

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Speaker 1: to explain that he told everybody, don't bring me anybody

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Speaker 1: here who's under age, and he told all of them

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Speaker 1: were of age. Is that correct? Yes? But I mean

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Speaker 1: the women that I interviewed who were involved in it,

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Speaker 1: was one of whom, by the way, was involved in

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Speaker 1: it for years, said that he made it very clear

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Speaker 1: he didn't want anybody who was older. All he wanted

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Speaker 1: was young girls, and the younger the better. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's basically what he always told them, the younger the better.

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Speaker 1: But of course you know this is what they say,

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Speaker 1: and he and his lawyers, I'm sure would say that

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Speaker 1: they're lying and that that was not the case described

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Speaker 1: for everyone. Um, what happens in the case involved with

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Speaker 1: the cost to in order to arrive at the decisions

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Speaker 1: they arrived at the agreement. Well, the state prosecutors and

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Speaker 1: Palm Beach first had the case. The police brought it

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Speaker 1: to them, and within a very short time, all these

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Speaker 1: lawyers that that Epstein had hired, uh began to uh

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Speaker 1: pressure the state prosecutor to make the case go away.

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Speaker 1: And essentially the state prosecutor was ready to make it

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Speaker 1: go away, and and really he was going to get

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Speaker 1: anything except a misdemeanor. And the police chief, to his credit,

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Speaker 1: UH said, wait a minute, this isn't going to happen,

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Speaker 1: because at the time this was happening more and more

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Speaker 1: girls every time they enter. They keep in mind, since

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Speaker 1: it was a sex pyramid scheme, you would interview one

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Speaker 1: girl and the one girl would say, well, these two

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Speaker 1: girls brought me, and then they go to those two

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Speaker 1: girls and they would say these two girls. So they

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Speaker 1: were getting an avalanche of girls. And here you have

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Speaker 1: the state prosecutors saying, oh, we're just going to let

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Speaker 1: him off for a Mrs Meaner, and the chief, to

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Speaker 1: his credit and the lead detective said no, and they

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Speaker 1: went to the FBI. So then it became a federal case.

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Speaker 1: And Alexander Acosta was the U S Attorney in Miami

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Speaker 1: at the time and appointed by George W. Yes. It

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Speaker 1: was a Bush administration, was Republican administration. Now, uh Epstein

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Speaker 1: was very much of a Democrat, and he had supported

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Speaker 1: Clinton and a lot of other Democratic causes. But he

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Speaker 1: he was smart. It was a Republican administration, So what

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Speaker 1: do you do you hire a Republican lawyer star kind

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Speaker 1: of star Uh you know, left court. And also the

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Speaker 1: other connection was Acosta had worked in the same politically

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Speaker 1: very important law firm of Kirkland and Ellis, which was

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Speaker 1: the same law firm that uh Star worked for and

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Speaker 1: left court work for. And so what they immediately started

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Speaker 1: doing was try to work out some kind of a

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Speaker 1: plea agreement with him, almost from the get go, even

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Speaker 1: though the FBI was uh on a parallel course to

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Speaker 1: charge him with sex trafficking, and they We're getting more

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Speaker 1: and more information and but so there were two kinds

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Speaker 1: of things happening. One was the FBI was really going

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Speaker 1: full steam ahead, was trying to prosecute him. And then

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Speaker 1: you had the prosecutors who were essentially sending emails back

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Speaker 1: and forcaying well, why don't we charge him with this?

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Speaker 1: Or can we charge him with that? And it was

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Speaker 1: this sort of collegial thing going on between the process.

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Speaker 1: There they were asking defense attorneys almost like would you

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Speaker 1: mind if we charge him with this? Yes? They really

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Speaker 1: I mean, from what I read, I'm not an expert

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Speaker 1: on this I've rarely heard, I've really observed such a

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Speaker 1: deference by prosecutors to the subject of a crime. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And what was amazing about the whole thing is, if

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Speaker 1: you follow the whole thing, which this took me over

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Speaker 1: a year and a half to do, you to follow

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Speaker 1: the sequence of events here, is that they would fight

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Speaker 1: down and say okay, we're going to charge him with this,

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Speaker 1: and and and he'd say okay, we're going to do it.

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Speaker 1: And then you look at it and young go, no,

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Speaker 1: I want a better deal than that than they'd start

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Speaker 1: all over. And they manipulated. He manipulated the criminal justice

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Speaker 1: system like I've never seen before, because every time they

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Speaker 1: got him, which was a pretty good deal, he would say,

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Speaker 1: well it's still not good enough. Go back again. What

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Speaker 1: do you think was behind a custom What do you

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Speaker 1: think it was behind I mean, because to me, the

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Speaker 1: first thing that come across is they want to bury

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Speaker 1: this like it's some kind of radioactive waste because there

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Speaker 1: are other people, big people. There's big names of people

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Speaker 1: who are clientele of Epstein's massage spa. Are there names

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Speaker 1: of people you've heard or big names that are buried

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Speaker 1: in those files? Yeah? And what we are doing at

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Speaker 1: the Miami Herald, and and my company that owns the Herald,

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Speaker 1: at McClatchy, I have to give them a lot of

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Speaker 1: credit because we're the only news organization that has really

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Speaker 1: done this. Uh is. We've been systemically going through these

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Speaker 1: cases now and going to the core. We have a

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Speaker 1: case right now here in New York, uh involving Epstein

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Speaker 1: and his madame so to speak. He had a woman

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Speaker 1: that was helping him allegedly with this uh here in

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Speaker 1: New York. And she was a recruiter in New York, Yes,

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Speaker 1: and in pomp each each Gelon Maxwell, Yeah, And this

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Speaker 1: was a lawsuit involving her. And we're trying to unseal

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Speaker 1: the records because we feel that there's more evidence in

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Speaker 1: there the New York case that's in New York, and

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Speaker 1: who wants to keep those records sealed? Maxwell and Epstein?

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Speaker 1: But who else? Well, there's a chance as indifferent to

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Speaker 1: the is the New York Prosecutor's office, the d A's

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Speaker 1: office as in different Sward letting the light into those

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Speaker 1: files as a custom wars. Well, we'll see. I mean

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Speaker 1: they knew, let's face it, they knew that this was

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Speaker 1: going on. They had the US prosecutors here in New

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Speaker 1: York because he was doing in the same deferential treatment

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Speaker 1: as a Democratic fundraiser. Well, it's the difference. Well, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, It's hard to say, but we do know

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Speaker 1: that Advance did make an attempt to lower his sex

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Speaker 1: offender registration to a lower level. And that was a

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Speaker 1: real joke. I mean, because well he he could do

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Speaker 1: what the lower registration level giving him a different codification

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Speaker 1: or a different kind of a label. What given more

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Speaker 1: freedom what? Well, he wouldn't have to check in, you know,

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Speaker 1: like to Dalton and teach kids math. Well, I don't

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Speaker 1: know about that. I mean, in this day and age,

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Speaker 1: nothing would surprise me. But uh, you know, there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of like the Weinstein case, there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of complicity. There was a lot of people to

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Speaker 1: knew what was going on, and I think that they

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Speaker 1: looked the other way. Pivot for a minute to your

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Speaker 1: background in your life, you had a tough childhood. Yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: I moved out of the house when I was sixteen,

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Speaker 1: became a mass paidd miner, lived with a bunch of

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Speaker 1: different friends for a while, worked the lampshade factory and

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Speaker 1: U Sixt delivered flower as well. I finished school and then,

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Speaker 1: you know, I didn't have any money to go to college,

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Speaker 1: so I worked a bunch of jobs waitresses and did

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Speaker 1: hold struggled and to the point that I realized I

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Speaker 1: better do something because I don't want to work at

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Speaker 1: kmart the rest of my life. Was that something that

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Speaker 1: that that you think cause you to have great empathy

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Speaker 1: for these girls? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, I think that personal well,

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Speaker 1: that person. It's just for the underdog because I haven't

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Speaker 1: really only covered uh, you know, women who have been abused.

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Speaker 1: I I did a huge for your project on the

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Speaker 1: Florida prison system, and I've never been in prison, but

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Speaker 1: I know that, you know, there's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: out there who don't have a voice in our criminal

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Speaker 1: justice system, and they end up in very bad places

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Speaker 1: in our system disposes of these people and then continues

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Speaker 1: to mistreat them so they never have a chance to

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Speaker 1: to get ahead, even if they do pay their debt

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Speaker 1: to society. But too civil and agains settled with him

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Speaker 1: at the end of last year. Yeah, and my question

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Speaker 1: for you is, like people that were involved and again

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Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not judging them or criticizing them. I'm

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Speaker 1: just wondering what your opinion is. But do these settlements

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Speaker 1: do they stall justice in the end when you have

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Speaker 1: people taking money and they're the victims of these crimes

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00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 1: and they take money. I think Rose McGowan took money

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00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 1: from from Weinstein, but there was no Nda involved, or

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Speaker 1: she thought that. Does that get in the way of

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Speaker 1: us having real justice for the very Probably? But I

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00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 1: feel like because our criminal justice system, unfortunately in a

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Speaker 1: lot of areas, is so heavily weighted towards people who

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Speaker 1: are powerful and wealthy, it doesn't give them a lot

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Speaker 1: of options because look what happened with these girls. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they they had no I mean, they were treated basically

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Speaker 1: like they were just I mean they were thirteen fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old girls. He was charged with solicitation of prostitution

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Speaker 1: of someone under the age of eighteen, in other words,

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Speaker 1: child product. There really isn't any such thing as child

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Speaker 1: prost to ship. You know that back then that was

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Speaker 1: still sex traffick books in Florida, But it's no longer

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Speaker 1: on the books in Florida. Yeah, it's sex trafficking. But

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Speaker 1: in a lot of these people's mind that you know,

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Speaker 1: Epstein's camp, the people that worked for him, uh, these

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Speaker 1: girls were prostitutes and he didn't really do anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: Once she discovered her calling in journalism, Julie Brown drove

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Speaker 1: relentlessly to realize it. The previous guest of mine on

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Speaker 1: Here's the Thing, George Stephanopoulos, took longer to land in

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Speaker 1: the same career he first worked for President Bill Clinton.

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Speaker 1: When I left the White House in early I was

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Speaker 1: I guess I was watching thirty six. Then I felt

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Speaker 1: much older, and I you know why, Oh yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean White House. Here's her dog. Years multiplied. But I

427
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 1: also knew I had a better sense of what I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to be than what I wanted to be.

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Speaker 1: After I left, I knew that in order to feel

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00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: my age again, I had to start a different career.

431
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 1: The rest of my conversation with George Stephanopoulos is on

432
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: our archive at Here's the Thing dot org when we

433
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: return Julie Brown on the other men. Some of Epstein's

434
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: victims have claimed were involved, and one of those men,

435
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: attorney and scholar Alan Dershowitz, has his say in response,

436
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.

437
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: Investigative reporter Julie Brown of The Miami Herald broke the

438
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: scandal of Jeffrey Epstein's plea deal, but even she has

439
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: trouble expressing just how singular his light sentence really was.

440
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: Florida has some of the toughest sex offender laws in

441
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: the country. Three. Uh, they send these guys to state

442
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: prison and Florida state prisons, I can tell you because

443
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: they're they're vicious, you know. But he managed to work

444
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: it out so that he would go to the Palm

445
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: Beach County jail. He had his own private little wing.

446
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: Was a cost responsible for that as well well. Customer

447
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: prosecutors have to sign off on that. Well, Acosta claimed

448
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: he didn't. He had no idea that that was going

449
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: to happen, because what a cost essentially did was he

450
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 1: washed his hands of the case and gave it back

451
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: to the state prosecutor. And it didn't just stand there.

452
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 1: I mean, he had his driver picked him up, explained

453
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: about the work release thing. Yeah, he got work released.

454
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: Now don't get work really And the work released was

455
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: what he was at. What I read was he's out

456
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: for twelve hours a day, six days a week, six days.

457
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: Driver picked him up, took him to his nice waterfront

458
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: office in West Palm Beach, and uh, you know they

459
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: had they did have sheriff's deputy. He's you know, standing

460
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 1: outside the office, but they were outside the office, and

461
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,479
Speaker 1: on the inside of the office people were coming and

462
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: going all day, including women coming to visit him. I

463
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: interviewed one of these deputies and I said, well, did

464
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: you even pay attention when he was doing in the office?

465
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: You know he had girls in there, And he goes, oh, no,

466
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 1: that was not our job. Yeah, So he could have

467
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: been continuing his activities during the work release from the

468
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: private jail cell of the Palm Beach and which he

469
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,959
Speaker 1: just could have kept it going and going and going. Yeah, yeah,

470
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: and all those Now do you know I did hear

471
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: he's in Palm Beach today. Now there are people who, um,

472
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: their names were pulled into this. Um. I'm not going

473
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: to say rightly or wrongly, but that is always a

474
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: really difficult consequence of these kinds of things, for people

475
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: to be wrongly accused and have their name dirtied up.

476
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: I mean, as I told you backstage, my name was

477
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: in Jeffrey Epstein's phone book, along with countless thousands of

478
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: other people who were celebrities are well known people. Remember

479
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: when people online would attack me about that. They'd say

480
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: to me, you perv you rapist. I mean to me,

481
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: they'd said, before my name was mentioned in anything to

482
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: do with the case, they'd write these things, and I

483
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,719
Speaker 1: would think to myself, I mean, I literally sat that way.

484
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: Where the hell did I ever meet Jeffrey Epstein? I

485
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: couldn't put it thought to myself in the nineties. Was

486
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: he at some event that was a fundraiser that I knew?

487
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: And of course I have a phone number that we

488
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 1: give people. That's what we in my office we call

489
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: the Dummy Line, and it's a number we've given out

490
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: to four maybe five million people over the course of

491
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: the last twenty five years. But there are people who

492
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: have had their name pulled into this whole thing. Dersha

493
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: Witz is one. And do you think some of the

494
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: people whose names have been pulled through this are innocent

495
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: or you're not sure? I think with dersh Witz, his

496
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: name was on flight uh manifest flying to his on

497
00:27:55,119 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: his plane. So before he became counsel to Epstein, he

498
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: was a guest of Epstein's at his home, And I

499
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: think that that's the reason why Dershowitz is significant to

500
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people is that the idea is that

501
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: he was Epstein's friend, he stayed at his Palm Beach house,

502
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: he vacationed at his Palm Beach house, and then he

503
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: represented him and he helped fashion a plea deal that

504
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: essentially not only gave Epstein immunity, but gave his co

505
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: conspirators both named an unnamed immunity. So the implication is

506
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: that you know, and I you know. I'm not saying

507
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: deersch Witz, you know, is guilty or not. I'm just

508
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: saying the implication. The reason why the lawyers representing one

509
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: of the victims brought it out was to demonstrate that

510
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: if if you know, it is true that he was involved,

511
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: he definitely had a conflict of interest. How do people

512
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: get immunity as potential co conspirators? How do they have

513
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: they continued to get away with that in court? I

514
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: mean that's I've talked to so many lawyers about this,

515
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: and I don't know of anybody that has ever heard

516
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: of a plea agreement like this before. You know, it

517
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: is unprecedented that did anybody, any of the women come

518
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: forward and accuse Dershowitz or anyone else. Two women said

519
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: he was a party to what happened, Yes, and nothing's

520
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: happened with that protected by immunity. Well no, I'm not

521
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: saying he's part of that because they didn't name him. So,

522
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: and of course he denies that he had anything to

523
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: do with it. But he has been accused of being

524
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: involved in this, he insisted, Yes, but two women and uh,

525
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: he insists that their liars, and you know, he has

526
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: h you know, says that he has proof that that

527
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: this isn't true, but it's been Uh, I haven't seen

528
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: the proof yet. You know. I'm still trying to work

529
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: with him on that, but he's he's come out and

530
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: attacked me pretty aggressively. Uh So we'll see what happens.

531
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: I try, you know, I try to keep an open mind.

532
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 1: You know, it must be a terrible thing to be

533
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: if he's wrongly accused, To be wrongly accused, this is

534
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: a horrible crime. And you know, I guess what I

535
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: could say is I still try to have an open mind,

536
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: and I want to. I mean, the truth is the

537
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: truth is the truth, you know, and only one person

538
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: can really be telling the truth in this case, and

539
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody really knows because these are he said,

540
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: she said, in a lot of cases. Uh so nobody.

541
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: I mean we might never know. Do I have a

542
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: picture of you that were you sitting at a kitchen?

543
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm gonna be very melodramatic now, but um

544
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: were you sitting at a kitchen table at the end

545
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: of some days and just staring at a you know,

546
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,479
Speaker 1: a cup of tea or something and saying, you know,

547
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: you just couldn't believe not not that this is not

548
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: just that this happened, and not that's just that it

549
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: was covered up, but the way that it was covered up,

550
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: and this is so insidious, how this was done. And

551
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: they gave this guy like, uh like he went to

552
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: camp for a while, an extended trip to camp. Yeah.

553
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: And with everything that I uncovered, a little by little,

554
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: you know, it's like peeling away an onion. And I

555
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: get so tired because it's a lot of dense court documents,

556
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: you know, ten thousand probably records, I mean, just so much,

557
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: and it's a lot of it is so it's all

558
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: legally's and I'm not a lawyer, and trying to make

559
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: heads or tails out of it, which just gets very

560
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: good point backstage, backstage, which you said, the Herold, like

561
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: other newspapers, are not wealthy organizations and institutions anymore. So

562
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,239
Speaker 1: this money meant a lot. They had spent a lot

563
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: of dough to do this legwork. Yeah. Yeah, they invested

564
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: a lot of money into this. They believed in me.

565
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: Be Bradley there in your story. Yeah, well it was

566
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: Casey frank I have to give him. He's my editor

567
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: who actually even went to bat with me. The police

568
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: chief did not want to go public. He had never

569
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: gone public with this before. He had been also, you know,

570
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: his career was because he went after Hepstein to his career.

571
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: Uh was hurt by it, and well a lot of

572
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: people went after him, you know. And is he still

573
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: the police chief. No, he retired and he wasn't taken

574
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: out of office removed, No, but it became hard for

575
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: him to be the police chief quite frankly. The reason

576
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: why he didn't want to talk to me, he said

577
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: he had talked to a lot of reporters off the

578
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: record and sort of told them where to go, and

579
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: nothing ever happened. He was convinced that a lot of

580
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: media had squashed this story and he had was really

581
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: at the point where he was fed up and didn't

582
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: want to talk to any media anymore. And so I said,

583
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: we're not going to do it, and he said no,

584
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: somebody's going to call your publisher and the next thing

585
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: you know, you're going to be assigned to the Open Department.

586
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: So I said, no, you know, talked to so Casey

587
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: called him up and told him, is that the game

588
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: show host of the journalism department? The open Apartment? Yeah, exactly,

589
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: that's about it. Yeah, Um, the like, what was the

590
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: part that really just made you go, oh my god.

591
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: It was really among many things that I think, it

592
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: was the fact that the government now think about, Um,

593
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: you know, we know about the abuse in the Catholic Church,

594
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: and the Catholic Church protected the priests, and we know

595
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: about the abuse with the Olympic gymnasts. The university had

596
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: protected this doctor. But this was our government, even after

597
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: they knew what he had done. The biggest thing that

598
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: drove me was how they continued to fight these girls

599
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: after they filed this crime victim's rights lawsuit. It was

600
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: almost like they were Epstein. The government was in Epstein's camp,

601
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: they were his counsel. Yeah, and they were saying, we're

602
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: not giving you these documents, We're not going to tell

603
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: you what we did like defense attorneys, and that just

604
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: I mean, how do you do that? How in good

605
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: conscience do you do that? What can we do to

606
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: help protect young women from this kind of sexual abuse? Well,

607
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot of different things. Um, I think our

608
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies, police officers, prosecutors especially need to be

609
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: better trained to handle these kinds of cases. There's a

610
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: whole different way you handle trauma victims. You can't treat

611
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 1: them like just any other victim. They're in a different

612
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: category because trauma does things to your brain and it

613
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: makes it so that, uh, you you you react to

614
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: things differently. I mean, there's a whole science behind trauma,

615
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: and so a lot of law enforcement people don't know

616
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: how to question victims who are are victims of sexual assault.

617
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: They expect that they're going to go ask them a question,

618
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: and when they hesitate, you know, or they're not consistent

619
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: in some of the answers, that they're unreliable witnesses. But

620
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: I've interviewed uh FBI experts who have who have made

621
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: their careers in this and they said that actually, you

622
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: should expect if their memories are not going to be consistent,

623
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: and if they are consistent, that's a sign that that

624
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: maybe they aren't telling the truth because the consistency is

625
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 1: that they suffer from trauma and they won't remember exactly

626
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: every detail the same way, because that's the way your

627
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: brain is. You you know, I've been through some trauma

628
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: and there are things in my life that I can't remember.

629
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll never remember, you know. So, uh, you know,

630
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: you have to have law enforcement people who are really

631
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: trained to understand that. And there's a whole like I said,

632
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: there's a whole science behind it. Um. Do we have

633
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: any questions from the audience from mart? Um? You have?

634
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: You got the mic here right over here. UM. I

635
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: just wanted to ask if you had received any pressure

636
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: similar to the people involved in the case, to not

637
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: continue the investigation, to not publish the article. Uh. Well,

638
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: I wouldn't phrase it that way, but let's put it

639
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 1: this way. There's a lot of people who have been

640
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: pretty aggressive with trying to uh discredit me in certain ways. Uh, so,

641
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: you know, I'm pretty tough. There are countless journalists that

642
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: are killed all over the world for fighting for the truth.

643
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 1: And for democracy. Uh, there are countless journalists right now

644
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 1: being tortured in prisons all over the world, and so

645
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 1: anybody that every time I you know, that question comes up.

646
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: Of course, you know you think about it in the

647
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: back of your head, But I always think about all

648
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,720
Speaker 1: the other journalists out there that are just really risking

649
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: their lives every single day. Um, over here, what's being

650
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: done to stop him from continuing doing this today? Are

651
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: they keeping an eye on him? Are they watching him? No? Um,

652
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: I can't find any evidence that anybody's watching him. That

653
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: That's another part of my story really, Uh, that the

654
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: sex offender registration that alex a Cosa keeps referring to

655
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: as sort of this great part of the deal that

656
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: he worked out. In reality, we don't know he's jet

657
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 1: setting his life around the world right now. And I

658
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: don't know if even if he gets off the plane,

659
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 1: if his passport even says that he's a sex offender.

660
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: The government won't tell me. They say that that's kind

661
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: of something that they don't have to reveal. End here, Um,

662
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: thank you. I have two questions. First is did you

663
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: have a chance to interview him? And second question is

664
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: what happened this woman. Now we are they doing in life?

665
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: And if you touch with them an interview again, Yeah,

666
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: thank you. I tried several times. I went to his

667
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: house when I knew he was there, knocked on the door,

668
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 1: wrote letters to him, certified letters, wrote sort of wrote

669
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: letters to his lawyers, reached out to people that I

670
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: knew knew him. But now I just he probably just

671
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: thought I was this little reporter from the Miami Herald.

672
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 1: It wasn't, you know, just like any other reporter, just

673
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: doing another rehash of the case. So I you know,

674
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: I don't think he felt that he had to respond

675
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 1: to me. And that's just my guest. Uh. I still

676
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: stay in touch with the girls, and and uh I

677
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,439
Speaker 1: was really touched. They were very young. Some ever even

678
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: told their families that this happened. One of the girls

679
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: in that category who shared her story to me, was

680
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: scared to death about how her grandparents would read the story.

681
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: And after the peace came out, she called me and

682
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: she said that her grandparents had we turn said that

683
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: they were really proud of her. You know, So I'm sorry,

684
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 1: but that's being really touched because it takes a lot

685
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: of courage to do that. She she she was really

686
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: worried about what they would think of her. You know

687
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: a lot of the girls, I'm sure field that way.

688
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: And uh and like I said, they feel really ashamed.

689
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: They really punished themselves. A lot of them didn't turn

690
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: out well. Some of them are dead. Um, they've overdosed.

691
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: Uh they some of them became strippers. And you know,

692
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: we're we're victims of violence addicts. The one girl I interviewed,

693
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: I interviewed her the first time I interviewed her. She

694
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: was in prison. She was serving a longer term for

695
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 1: selling drugs than he served for molesting underage girls. That

696
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: that's amazing. Um, I want to go over to this side.

697
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: I want to get back to the safety of journalists.

698
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,280
Speaker 1: What concerns, if any, do you have about your own

699
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: personal safety. I want to know what you do, what

700
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: locks should have, what the security is. Well, for a

701
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: long time, I had a nice loud dog when I

702
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: was covering the Florida prison system, and there were some

703
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: people that would show up, you know, lurking outside my

704
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: and the dog would so loud. It was my daughter's dog.

705
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: So now my daughter has her dog back, So I'm

706
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: thinking maybe I should get another dog. But uh, you know,

707
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: I don't really think about it until people ask me.

708
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: Then I get worried. You just keep doing your job.

709
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: We think you're from automatically. You carry a gun, don't you. Yeah,

710
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: well I've had you know, I have a lot of

711
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: friends who are police officers. In fact, my ex husband

712
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: is a police officer, and they've all advised me that

713
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 1: I should have one, but I just can't bring myself

714
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 1: to do it. Like I said, I grew up in Philly,

715
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 1: and you know, you just pay attention to where you're

716
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: going and what you're doing. Look, if anybody really wants

717
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: to get you, they're going to get you. I can't finished.

718
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: If we didn't call, we didn't call you. I'm sorry.

719
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: We're gonna finish with you, sir. What do we know

720
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: specifically about the relationship between Epstein and Clinton. Uh, he

721
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: was absolutely on Epstein's plane. Uh you know there it's

722
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: been documented that he's going where South Africa. Epstein donated

723
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: some money to the Clinton Foundation. And during this time period,

724
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: which was I think the early two thousand's, uh, you know,

725
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: they were the AIDS epidemic was spreading in Africa, and

726
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: there was you know a sort of a fact finding

727
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: plane trip that Stein took trip Clinton on. Now he

728
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: went on his plane more than that, though. We know

729
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: that there was probably like twenty trips, and uh, you know,

730
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: of course, a lot of people suspect that maybe he

731
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: was involved in some way. He's denied that he was involved.

732
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: And the one girl that we know was very much involved,

733
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: underage girl Virginia Roberts, said that she never saw him

734
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: with any come forward. That's correct, that's correct. Well, I

735
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: was gonna say I could talk about sex trafficking all

736
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: night long. I think I've had about enough of that

737
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: subject for now, and around a time, I want to

738
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 1: say that, you know, journalists who do the job you're

739
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: doing our heroes, and I admire you very very much.

740
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: That plays. I admire you, Tomnes though for what you've done. Uh.

741
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Julie Brown from the Miami Harold,

742
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: I thank you all for coming. Thank you. Julie Brown

743
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,760
Speaker 1: on threats to her safety and that of other journalists

744
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: around the world. When former Epstein lawyer Alan Dersha has

745
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: heard that his name had come up, he wanted the

746
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: opportunity to respond. Here is our conversation. Julie Brown denied

747
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: your listeners the full truth about her reporting. UM she

748
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: mentions to women who accused me of having sexual accounters

749
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: with them, I never met these women. I don't know

750
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: who they are. They totally came out of the blue.

751
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: This is the only me too case that I'm aware

752
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: of where there was no prior relationship, where there was

753
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: no knowledge. These are just strangers who are falsely accusing me.

754
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: These are both women who have long records of falsely

755
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: accusing famous people. The first woman named Roberts, who Brown

756
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: relies on for her reporting, had gotten a hundred sixty

757
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: thou dollars from the Male in London for an article

758
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: in which she remembers vividly meeting Al Gore and typical

759
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: or on Jeffrey Epstey's island. They've never been on the island.

760
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: Uh Secret Service and other records confirmed that she also

761
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: remembers meeting Bill Clinton on the island. Secret Service records

762
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: confirmed he was not on the island. Her own lawyer, UH.

763
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: Robert's own lawyer admitted to me in a tape recorded

764
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: conversation that his client was quote wrong, simply wrong. That

765
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 1: I couldn't possibly have been in any of the places

766
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: where she claimed to have sex with me. I produced

767
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,919
Speaker 1: all my travel records every single day of my life

768
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: during the two years this woman of Jeffrey Epstein and

769
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 1: proved conclusively that I couldn't have been at the places.

770
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: That's why. Uh. The the head of the FBI, the

771
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: former head of the FBI, Louis Free, did a complete

772
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: and thorough investigation and concluded that the stories were made

773
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,240
Speaker 1: up and that they were a false The judge struck

774
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: the allegation sanctioned the lawyers, profiling them. The lawyers then

775
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: withdrew the allegation, admitting it was a mistake. And yet

776
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: your audience didn't hear anything about that. Um. The second

777
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: woman went to the New York Post and claimed she

778
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 1: had sex tapes of Hillary Clinton, of Donald Trump, of

779
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: Richard Branson, and of Bill Clinton. And of course she

780
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: was lying through her teeth, and the New York Post

781
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,720
Speaker 1: threw her out. The reporter's name is a marine Callahan.

782
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 1: She'll confirm all of this. And yet um, they produced

783
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: her as the second woman after I was threatened that

784
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 1: if I didn't withdraw a bar charge against the first lawyer,

785
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: they would find a second woman. Because two women are

786
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: better than one, you know, people say when they smoke

787
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: this fire. Sometimes when they smoked this arson. This is

788
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: a case of arson. This is a case where two

789
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: women for profit and they've earned an enormous amount of money,

790
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: have falsely accused me to frame me. And I'm sinking

791
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: an FBI investigation. I've asked for the FBI to investigate

792
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: me along with these two women because they filed out

793
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: to David's an eye file after David And how was

794
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 1: that and how was that going? Is the FBI respon

795
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: to your request? Well, we're waiting to hear obviously. I've

796
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: also asked for any law firm in the country to

797
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: conduct an independent investigation. I'm willing to show everything to

798
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: everybody because i did nothing wrong. I've lived an exemplary

799
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: private life or all the years that are relevant to

800
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: this these inquiries and these women just made up these stories.

801
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: And and and Brown wants to win the peel is surprised,

802
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: but she didn't tell the public that the source she

803
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: relied on, the major source, Virginia Roberts, is a proven

804
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 1: perjura and a proven liar. I won't rest until Virginia

805
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 1: Roberts goes to prison and the other woman goes to prison.

806
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: False accusations are serious, whether it's the actor in Chicago

807
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 1: Smollet who falsely accused people, or it's these women false

808
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: accusations hurt me too. Movement very serious, and Julie Brown

809
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: hasn't reported the other side of the story. Sure, she

810
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 1: put into the story that I denied it. That's not enough.

811
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: She the readers the obligation to say, I produced all

812
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: my travel records. There was an FBI report, the judge

813
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,919
Speaker 1: struck everything. That's uh, that's true, and then nobody would

814
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: believe these stories. It's pure advocacy. And if a lawyer

815
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: ever behaved that way, that lawyer would be disbarked for

816
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: failing to produce relevant evidence that shows that I was

817
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,760
Speaker 1: innocent when the women are claiming falsely that I'm guilty.

818
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: So thank you for an opportunity to tell your listeners

819
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: the whole truth. Well, I mean, I listen. I have

820
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: tremendous in my own life public life. I've had my

821
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: share of things that I felt were not reported accurately

822
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 1: or not really very fair, and so I have tremendous

823
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: empathy for that. I only have one question, which is

824
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: that in the world we live, and of course this

825
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: is the American way, which is to torpedo people's careers

826
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: over sexual charges. America is particularly obsessed with the sexual

827
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: clinton and so everything is in other countries. The differences

828
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: they did it here, we have no right and I

829
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: didn't do it. No, no, no, I'm not disputing them.

830
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: I'm just leading up to something, which is that that

831
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: in this country people are often doing this too, this

832
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: as a form of character assassination and to nullify someone's

833
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: career with these sex charges. Because in other countries this

834
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,800
Speaker 1: doesn't play that much. And I mean in other countries

835
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: they don't care. In other countries these women would be

836
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: put in prison. But but but what I'm asking you is,

837
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 1: so you think that these two women that are making

838
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 1: these false charges against you, it's purely about money. Well

839
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: it started with money, uh, driven by their lawyers. The

840
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: first woman, Roberts, told her best friend I have it

841
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 1: on tape that she was pressured by her lawyers to

842
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: name me. She had never previously named me. There are

843
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: some emails now that are still sealed, but we're waiting

844
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 1: to get them unsealed. But they show how the plot unfolded,

845
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: how they admitted, how she admitted she never had any

846
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: contact with me at all, but she was told she

847
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: had to put me in her book because otherwise the

848
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: book wouldn't sell because I'm famous, and this is a

849
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: one with a long history of making false accusations against

850
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 1: famous people. She claims to have had under age sex

851
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: with the Prime Minister of Israel, with the majority leader

852
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: of the United States Senate, the United States Ambassador to

853
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: the United Nations, with the man who invented artificial intelligence.

854
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: You name it. I mean, it's a pantheon of famous people.

855
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Speaker 1: Professor Alan Dershowitz. Julie Brown is still working the Epstein story,

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Speaker 1: reporting on the fallout, including one lawsuit that has the

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Speaker 1: potential to overturn the Plea deal. I'm Alec Baldwin and

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Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the thing.