1 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: With the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia became a 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: fertile place for many Western capitalists to invest. Perhaps the 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: most successful of them was Bill Browner, who was actually 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: the grandson of the head of the American Communist Party. 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: Bill Browner built Hermitage Capital into one of the leading 6 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: Western investors in Russia, but he ran afoul of the 7 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: Russian government and had to leave the country. I had 8 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: a chance to sit down with Bill Browder in Berlin 9 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: to talk about what he's now doing and why he's 10 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: trying to get assets of Russia frozen so that they 11 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: might be used for the reconstruction of Ukraine. So I 12 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: don't know if Vladimir Putin has an enemy's list, but 13 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: if he does, you're probably on it. How did you 14 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: manage to get on his enemies list? 15 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 2: Well, I'm definitely on it, high on it, perhaps even 16 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 2: the highest on it among foreigners. And the way I 17 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: got on it was a lobbied for a piece of 18 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 2: legislation called the Magniski Act is named after my Russian 19 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: lawyer Sergei Magnisky, who was murdered by the Putin regime 20 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: in Russian police custody, and the Magniski Act freezes the 21 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: assets and bans the visas of human rights violators from Russia. 22 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 2: And Putin is a human rights violator. He's a very 23 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: wealthy man, and he values his money more than human life, 24 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 2: and so the idea that Bill Browder could get his 25 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 2: money frozen was just the biggest insult ever to him. 26 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 2: And for that reason, he's been chasing me around the 27 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: world ever since. 28 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: Are you not afraid of falling off of a building somewhere, 29 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: or have being poisoned? 30 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 2: All sorts of terrible things have happened to people around 31 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: me in this whole conflict. Do I live my life 32 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 2: in fear every day? The answer is no. Do I 33 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: understand that there is a very real chance they could 34 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: do something terrible to me? And the answer is yes, 35 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: Do I take precautions? Many So this is Yevgeny Pregosion. 36 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: He was the head of the Wagner group. He marched 37 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 2: on Moscow. He humiliated Putin, and Putin waited like three 38 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 2: or four months to kill him, And in fact, every 39 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: day during that three or four months, everyone was saying, 40 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: how is this guy still alive? And then one day 41 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 2: he was on his private jet with his entire senior 42 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 2: team of mercenaries. They're flying from Saint Petersburg to Moscow 43 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: and one of the wings exploded on their private jet, 44 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: and it just so happened that there was somebody on 45 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 2: the ground with their Apple iPhone watching this plane careening 46 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: to the ground. And this had two effects. One was 47 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 2: that he killed this guy who humiliated him, which is 48 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: a very important part of Putin's thing. But the second 49 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: is they had this video, and they showed this video 50 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: on Russian national TV and all over the world. 51 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: During President Trump's first term, President Trump met with mister 52 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: Putin at one point, and mister Putin, as I understand it, 53 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: said I'd like to get some things back from the 54 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: United States, specific that I'd like to have Bill Browder 55 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: brought back to Russia so that I can make sure 56 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: he's properly treated in Russia on their our justice system. 57 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: Where you surprise is that President Trump said, well, let 58 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: me think about it for a couple of days. And 59 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: were you surprised during that period of time that more 60 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: people didn't jump up and down and say this is 61 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: outrageous that the president we even consider doing this. 62 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 2: It was a pretty trying week of my life, so 63 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: This was July twenty eighteen. The two presidents met at 64 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 2: the Helsinki Summit. It was the monday after Robert Muller, 65 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: the special prosecutor, had indicted twelve Russian military intelligence officers 66 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 2: for hacking the election. I've been on the top of 67 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: Putin's mind since the Magniski Act was passed. But what 68 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: was surprising was when the next question went to Trump 69 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: and they said, what do you think of this offer? 70 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: And without skipping a beat, he said, I think it's 71 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: an incredible offer to have the most powerful man in 72 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: the free world offering to hand me over to a 73 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: man who wants to kill me. That was very surprising. 74 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: What did you do when you heard this? Did you 75 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: go into hiding or. 76 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: I thought about getting on an airplane and leaving the 77 00:03:55,480 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: United States, But my wife said, well, probably not going 78 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: to all happen that quickly. And now the whole world 79 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 2: wants to know who is this Bill Browder, So I 80 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: think you should tell them. And so I spent the 81 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: next few days on doing interviews and explaining the whole story. 82 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: And there actually was a lot of outrage because in Washington, 83 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 2: the big question was, you know, is do we want 84 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: to hand over. You know Bill Browner, who I know 85 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: a lot of people in Washington who helping with the 86 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: Magniski Act. And they had this vote in the Senate, 87 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 2: and the Senate voted ninety eight to zero not to 88 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: hand me over. 89 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: Now, you have never met Putin, but you must have 90 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: studied him very carefully. Obviously. Were you surprised that he 91 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: decided to invade Ukraine a few years ago? 92 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: Very surprised. So, leading up to that invasion, the Russian 93 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: troops all gathered on the border, and there was six 94 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: or eight weeks of uncertainty about whether he would or 95 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: wouldn't invade, And I said, no, he's just angling to 96 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 2: get all concessions from the West. He's not going to 97 00:04:58,160 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 2: go in because it would be insane to go in, 98 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: because there'll be unbelievable sanctions. His military is totally hollowed out, 99 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: there's corruption. And then he went in. And so I 100 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 2: was surprised and very surprised. 101 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: Actually, are you surprised that it has taken this long 102 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: for the war to keep going on? In other words, Ukraine, 103 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: it was a thought at the time, will be taken 104 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: over in three or four days. I was Putin's plan 105 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 1: as I understand it. Obviously, the wars now on it's 106 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: third year or so, there's no clear resolution as we talk. 107 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: You see, any way, he might say I'll back out, 108 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: but I don't really want to do this. 109 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: Putin is never going to back down. So I was 110 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 2: surprised that the Ukrainians did as well as they did. 111 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: At the very beginning of the war. I think that 112 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: everybody thought that they would lose very quickly, and the 113 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: Ukrainians put up such a bold and really impressive fight 114 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 2: that they pushed the Russians back once it wasn't a 115 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: sort of three day capitulation. And since that point, it's 116 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 2: been clear to me that there is really no end 117 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: to this war. And the reason there's no end to 118 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 2: this war is that the Ukrainians are not going to surrender, 119 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 2: and Putin can't back down because if he were to 120 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: back down, he would look weak and he would probably 121 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: lose power. And so for him, this war is a 122 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 2: war to stay in power, and for the Ukrainians this 123 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 2: is a war of survival. So neither side is going 124 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 2: to give up, and neither side has a definitive military advantage. 125 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: Are you surprised that Donald Trump, who said he could 126 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: probably get this war resolved within twenty four hours, has 127 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: not yet been able to get Putin, who he regards 128 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: as a friend, able to come to the negotiating table, 129 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: or you're not surprised. 130 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 2: I'm not surprised at all. Putin is doing this war 131 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 2: in order to stay in power. He wants to stay 132 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: in power, to stay alive. There's nothing Donald Trump that 133 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 2: can offer him that will keep him alive and keep 134 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 2: him in power. He's doing this because he needs a 135 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: foreign enemy to distract the Russian people from their own problems. 136 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 2: And so there's nothing Donald Trump can do for Vladimir 137 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 2: Putin that's going to make him stop. 138 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the Browder family. How you came to 139 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: become an investor in Russia. Your grandfather, for those who 140 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: don't know, was a very prominent communist leader in the 141 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: United States. His name was Earl Browner. Can you tell 142 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: us about his background and how he came to such 143 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: prominence in the United States. 144 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: So, my grandfather, Earl was a labor union organizer from Wichita, Kansas, 145 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: and he was so good at organizing the union that 146 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: one day he was spotted by the communists and they said, 147 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: if you like labor unionism. You're going to love communism, 148 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: why don't you come to Russia and check it out. 149 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: And so in nineteen twenty seven, my grandfather Earl went 150 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: to Moscow. When he got there, he met a young 151 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: woman who became my grandmother. My father was born in Moscow. 152 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: And then five years later, in nineteen thirty two, they 153 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 2: were sent back by the Communist Party so that my 154 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: grandfather could become the general secretary of the American Communist Party. 155 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: He ran for president twice against Roosevelt in nineteen thirty 156 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: six nineteen forty on the Communist ticket. He was arrested 157 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: in nineteen forty one, and so there was demonstrations all 158 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: over the inner cities of America to free year old Browner, 159 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 2: and then Mayor LaGuardia called up Roosevelt and said, you 160 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 2: got to let this guy go, and he was pardoned 161 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 2: in nineteen forty two. He was eventually kicked out of 162 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 2: the Communist Party in nineteen forty five for being too 163 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: much of a capitalist, and then persecuted viciously during the 164 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: McCarthy era. 165 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: So what did he do with the rest of his life? 166 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: And did you ever meet your grandfather? 167 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: You know, I didn't know him as a Communist leader. 168 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: I knew him as my grandfather. He passed away when 169 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: I was nine years old, but I remember this sort 170 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: of amiable old man with white hair and a white mustache, 171 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 2: who smoked a pipe in his office and had wise 172 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: things to say from time to time. 173 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: So where were you born. 174 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 2: I was born in Princeton. 175 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: And your father was at that time at Princeton or. 176 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 2: He was at the Institute of Advanced Studies where Einstein 177 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: was at the time. 178 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: And your mother was she a mathematician or. 179 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: She was one of the first women to go to 180 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 2: MIT and they met when and my father was an 181 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: instructor at MIT. 182 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: And when you're nursing school and growing up, did people 183 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: say your grandfather was a Communist or they say your 184 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: father is the head of the math department. 185 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 2: Growing up around the university, I was the son of 186 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: Felix Brown, or the chairman of the math department. 187 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: So you graduated from the Universe Chicago, And then did 188 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: you say, I want to be in the investment world, 189 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: I want to go to business school. What did you 190 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: decide to do. 191 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: My first job out of the University of Chicago was 192 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: as a consultant at Baine in company in Boston. They 193 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 2: had special postgraduate program for two years. 194 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: So you went to Baine And how long were you 195 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: at Baine? 196 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: Two years? And then I went to Stanford Business School. 197 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 2: I was really on the wrong track towards something that 198 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 2: was not respected my family, to be a businessman. 199 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: So he graduated from Stanford Business School. Then what did 200 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: you do? 201 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 2: Well? I graduated at a very interesting time. I become 202 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: a capitalist. And I graduated Stanford Business School in nineteen 203 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: eighty nine, and this is a very auspicious year because 204 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 2: this is the year that the Berlin Wall came down. 205 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out what do I do with 206 00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 2: my life post business school? And one day I had 207 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 2: this epiphany, which is that if my grandfather was the 208 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: biggest communist in America, I'm going to try to become 209 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 2: the biggest capitalist in Eastern Europe. And that's what I 210 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: set out to do. 211 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: So you set up a firm called Hermitage Capital Management. 212 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: I end up moving to London. I have several jobs. 213 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 2: I end up at Solomon Brothers working on their Russian. 214 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: Desk, and then how long were you there? 215 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: I work on the investment banking side, and my first 216 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 2: assignment was to advise a fishing fleet located in Murmansk 217 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 2: on their privatization. I go up to Murmansk. I discover 218 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:37,359 Speaker 2: they have these enormous ships, four hundred feet long, just gigantic. 219 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: And I asked the guy who runs the fishing fleet, 220 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: how much do these things cost? Twenty million dollars? New 221 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: how many you have in your fleet? One hundred so 222 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: two billion dollars worth of ships? And I had been 223 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 2: hired to advise them on whether to exercise their legitimate 224 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 2: right under the privatization program of Russia to buy fifty 225 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 2: one percent. And I said, at what price is the 226 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: government selling fifty one percent? Two and a half million dollars? 227 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: And that was the moment I said to myself, I 228 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 2: want to be an investor in this stuff, not an 229 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: advisor on this stuff. 230 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: So you quit Salomon Brothers. 231 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: Actually was able to convince Solomon Brothers to invest in 232 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 2: some of these things. We made a whole bunch of money. 233 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: I decided to quit Solomon and do this on my own, 234 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: and that's when I set up Hermitage Capital Management. 235 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,599 Speaker 1: Now, for those who don't know, are Hermitage is the 236 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: name of a museum in Saint Petersburg. I assume your 237 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: name that after that you're. 238 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: One of the smart ones who figured that out. But yes, 239 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 2: that's where they kept all the treasures in Russia. 240 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: So you set up Hermitage Capital Management. Did you have 241 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: any money to capitalize the business? 242 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 2: I didn't have any money at all. One person in 243 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 2: particular I developed a very close friendship with. That's a 244 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: man named Edmund Saffra, was the owner of republic National 245 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,719 Speaker 2: Bank of New York, the bank that all the billionaires 246 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 2: and rich people of the time kept their money. And 247 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: Edmund said, I will put up the first twenty five 248 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: million in your fund, and if I like you, I'll 249 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: get my friends to invest with you. So I said, great, 250 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 2: let's do it. 251 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: You started investing, and I assume you did. Okay. 252 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 2: It was the most fortuitous launch of an investment fund 253 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 2: that's probably ever happened. In the first eighteen months of 254 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 2: my life as as a fund manager, we were up 255 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 2: eight hundred and sixty five percent. 256 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: So you were buying stakes in Russian government owned companies 257 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: that you could privatize and buy them at ten cents 258 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: on a dollar or even less a lot less. 259 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: So I was buying at a ninety nine point seven 260 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: percent discount oil companies in Russia. 261 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: How much did you have to manage at the peak? 262 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: At the peak we had about four and a half 263 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 2: billion dollars. 264 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: And you're investing in a discount and you're earning really 265 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: good profits. And how many years did you do this for? 266 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: I got there in spring of nineteen ninety six, and 267 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: it was all going all very very well. In November 268 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 2: of two thousand and five, I was coming back from 269 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: a business trip to London and I was stopped at 270 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: Schermettivo Airport and I was arrested, and I was kept 271 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 2: overnight at the airport's detention center and then deported the 272 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: next day and declared a threat to national security? 273 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: And why were you declared a threat to nation security? 274 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 2: In this time that I was investing, One of the 275 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: things I discovered was that the reason everything was so 276 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: cheap was because these companies, you might have owned a 277 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 2: share of a company, but you didn't really have a 278 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 2: share of the profits, because all the profits were being 279 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 2: stolen out the back door by the oligarchs who controlled 280 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 2: these companies. And so I started to try to figure out, 281 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 2: how do I stop these guys from stealing from the companies. 282 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 2: I was investing in. I was very good at doing research, 283 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 2: and I had a really great bunch of Russian, smart 284 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 2: Russians working for me who could figure out all the 285 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: stealing that was going on, and they did really beautifully. 286 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: And then I would take that research and I would 287 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 2: share it with the international media, with the Financial Times, 288 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: with the Wall Street Journal and so on. Normally, if 289 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 2: you put out some bad thing of companies doing, the 290 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: share price goes down. But these share prices were so 291 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 2: low that you put out their bad stuff and people 292 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 2: are saying, well, maybe they'll steal a little bit less, 293 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 2: and the share price has started to rise. Obviously, the 294 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: people who were on the other side of these things, 295 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: the people who were benefiting from these frauds that I 296 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: was then exposing, were getting pretty mad. And I've been 297 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: doing this for ten years and they finally had enough, 298 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: and that's what led to my exposure. 299 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: So you're doing this, you're making money for your investors 300 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: and presumably yourself as well. Putin is not happy, has 301 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: you arrested. And then after you're arrested in the airport 302 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: in Russia, they send you out of the country and 303 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: they say you can't come back. Is that right? 304 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: That's right. They could have killed me, they could have 305 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 2: imprisoned me, or they could have deported me. And this 306 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: was back in two thousand and five. Putin didn't have 307 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 2: the same degree of self confidence he has today. That 308 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: was the largest foreign investor in their country. I think 309 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 2: killing me would have been a step way too far. 310 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: As soon as you got out of the country, I 311 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: assume kissed the ground you got back in London. But 312 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: then you told your employees to get out the country 313 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: right away. 314 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: I called them up and said, you know, pack your 315 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 2: bags tonight and bring your families. And I got all 316 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 2: my people out. And then once they were out, I said, 317 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 2: the next thing they could do is try to steal 318 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: our money and we I said, we need to liquidate everything, 319 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: and we were able to successfully sell everything. 320 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: As we talk today. I think the US government has 321 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: not nor have the European governments agreed to do that. 322 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: I think the US government has been willing to use 323 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: the interest on that money, but the Europeans haven't quite 324 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: agreed to that yet. 325 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 2: So everybody's using the interests in that money. They're using 326 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: it for defense. 327 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: It's being used by the countries that are providing support 328 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: to Ukraine. They're using the interest off of that money. 329 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: It's about roughly three hundred billion dollars if there is 330 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: a settlement. Can you imagine that Putin would ever settle 331 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: and allow that three hundred billion dollars in principle not 332 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: to come back to Russia. 333 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: No, under no circumstances would you allow that. Which is 334 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 2: why we should be confiscating that. 335 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: Well, we have custody of that money, but the idea 336 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: of confiscating that is a bit of a difficult cause 337 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: you're working on it, but it's not easy to get 338 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: done right. 339 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: Well, everyone said the same thing about the Magniskia Act. 340 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 2: Everyone said, there's no way you're ever going to make 341 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: that happen. Don't even try. I'm one hundred percent sure 342 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: that we will get these countries to confiscate that money 343 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: for a very simple reason, which is it's either us 344 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: paying for it or it's pudent paying for it. 345 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: Not too long ago, there was another prominent American who 346 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: was something from Oklahoma who invested a fairmount in Russia 347 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: and he was imprisoned in Russia for some time. I 348 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: think he's now been freed. Is he doing anything similar 349 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: to what you're doing? 350 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 2: The only thing similar to me that he's done is 351 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 2: he's written a book. He wrote a book that's come 352 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 2: out recently, which I haven't read yet, but I look 353 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: forward to reading about his time. He actually spent some 354 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 2: time in prison, which I think was pretty unpleasant. 355 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: You did something that probably will be famous for more 356 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: than anything else you've done, which is the act we 357 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: talked about the Magnivskiak. Can you just explain, was Magnitsky 358 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: looking for something for you at the time that he 359 00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: was in prison? 360 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 2: They said, I was kicked out of Russia in two 361 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 2: thousand and five. We liquidated everything and got our people out, 362 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 2: but except for one person, had a secretary just sitting 363 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 2: in the empty office in Moscow. And in June of 364 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, my office is my office in 365 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: Moscow was raided by twenty five police officers and they 366 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: seized from the law firm all the stamps, seals, and 367 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: certificates for our investment holding companies, the companies through which 368 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 2: we had invested all this money, which were empty at 369 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: this point because we'd sold everything. And the next thing 370 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: we know, we no longer own these investment holding companies. 371 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 2: They'd been fraudulently reregistered using the documents seized by the police. Now, 372 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 2: I had no economic stake at this point, because our 373 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: money was safe offshore, and so I go out and 374 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 2: hire the smartest lawyer I know in Russia at the time, 375 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 2: a young man named Sergei Magnitski is a Russian citizen 376 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 2: at the time. When I hired him to do this, 377 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 2: he was thirty five years old, and I said to Sergei, 378 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 2: help me figure this out and help me stop whatever 379 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 2: they're trying to do, because I don't feel good about this. 380 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: He started doing it and then he was arrested. Is 381 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: that right? 382 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: Well, so what he discovered, and this is the crux 383 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 2: of the whole story, is that the reason that they 384 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 2: stole our companies was that when I was selling everything, 385 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 2: we had a billion dollars of profit in that year 386 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 2: and we paid a tax bill to the Russian government 387 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: of two hundred and thirty million dollars. What Sergei had 388 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 2: figured out was that the reason they stole our companies 389 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 2: was to go back to the tax authorities and file 390 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: an amended tax return. And the amended tax return said 391 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 2: that these companies didn't earn a billion dollars, they earned zero, 392 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 2: and therefore they wanted the two hundred and thirty million 393 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: dollars of taxes that we had paid to the Russian 394 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: government back refunded to our companies that they had stolen. 395 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: Sergei discovered this crime, a theft of two hundred and 396 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 2: thirty million dollars of taxes. There wasn't our money, this 397 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: was the Russian government's money, and he filed criminal complaints 398 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: to every different law enforcement agency in Russia. He testified 399 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 2: against the officials involved, and instead of arresting the people 400 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 2: who stole the two hundred and thirty million dollars, the 401 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 2: people who stole the tun thirty million dollars organized to 402 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 2: have him arrested. 403 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: So one part of the Russian government is stealing from 404 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: another part of the Russian government in effect correct. So 405 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: he's arrested and he's put in jail. Does he get 406 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: out on bail. 407 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: No, They keep him in jail and then they start 408 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 2: to torture him to get him to a draw his testimony. 409 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: Eventually, what happened to him. 410 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 2: Well, they kept on torturing him and torturing him, pushing 411 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: him to try to withdraw his testimony. He just kept 412 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 2: on saying no, no, no. They put him in a cell, 413 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 2: chained him to a bed, and eight rideguards with rubber 414 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 2: batons beat him until he died. 415 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: When did you hear about this? 416 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 2: He was killed on November sixteenth, two thousand and nine. 417 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 2: I got the news on the morning of November seventeenth. 418 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 2: It was the most horrifying, heartbreaking, life changing news that 419 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: I could have ever gotten. I made a vow to 420 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 2: his memory, to his family, and to myself that I 421 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: was going to put aside everything else I was doing, 422 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 2: and I was going to use all my time, energy 423 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 2: and resources to go after the people who killed him. 424 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: So did you say to the Russian authorities arrest the 425 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: people that killed them? Or did you go to the 426 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: American authorities and say, let's pass legislation that will prevent 427 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: this from happening in the future. 428 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 2: Sergei had documented all the stuff leading up to the 429 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: night of his death in the form of four hundred 430 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: and fifty criminal complaints that he wrote and filed, documenting 431 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 2: every last detail of the abuse. Once a month or so, 432 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 2: he would write these out by hand. He would hand 433 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 2: them to his lawyer. His lawyer would file them, we 434 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 2: would get copies. And so the first thing I did 435 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 2: after he was killed was. I gave all that, gave 436 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: this information to one of the opposition newspapers in Russia 437 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 2: and they published it, and it was created a huge 438 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: stir because people were shocked that most people in Russia 439 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 2: didn't know that there was this whole sort of Stalin 440 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 2: like thing going on. And we thought that that would 441 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 2: kind of jolt the Russians into at least prosecuting the 442 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 2: low level people, not the instigators. But that didn't happen 443 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 2: at all. There was a total conspiracy of cover up 444 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 2: and every different branch of the Russian government. 445 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: So the Russian government did nothing. You event decided to 446 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: try to do something in the United States. What was that? 447 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 2: And so I went to Washington and I shared the 448 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: story of Sergei Magnitski with two senators, a Democrat from Maryland, 449 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: Senator Benjamin Carden and Republican from Arizona, the late John McCain. 450 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 2: And I told them the story of what happened to Sergei, 451 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: and I said, can we freeze their assets and ban 452 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 2: their visas? And these two senators said yeah, And that 453 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 2: became known as the Magnitski Act. 454 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 1: So this law passed what year. 455 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: Twenty twelve now exists in thirty five countries, and most significantly, 456 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 2: it doesn't just apply to Russian human rights of users. 457 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 2: It applies to human rights of users anywhere in China 458 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 2: and Venezuela and Nicaragua wherever. 459 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: So when Russia invaded Ukraine, the United States government froze 460 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: assets of oligarchs who had not been involved in the 461 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: decision to invade Ukraine, but were presumably benefiting from Putin's government, 462 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: and so those assets were frozen. As it under the 463 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: Magnetic Acts, they were frozen. 464 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 2: I sort of cleared the path for the tool to 465 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 2: be used. So the Magnitski Act was something that was 466 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: debated very hotly for two years in Washington, and eventually 467 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: we came to this good outcome. 468 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: As you got all of this done, This, no doubt 469 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: would be your great legacy, which is to have this 470 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: policy put in the place. Have you abandoned the investment world. 471 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 2: I'm no longer managing money for anyone, So it's very 472 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 2: difficult to be a money manager and be Putin's number 473 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 2: one foreign enemy full time human rights activist. But I 474 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: still am. I still have my finger in the investment world. 475 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: What is your next mission? Is it to let people 476 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: know more about the things that are going on in 477 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 1: Russia or other places. 478 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 2: Well, one of the big things that has happened since 479 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 2: all these countries have passed the Magnitski Act was the 480 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 2: invasion of Ukraine. It was terrible for everybody, but for 481 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 2: me in particular, watching somebody else be victimized by Putin 482 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: in such a dramatic way. And so I wanted to 483 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 2: be helpful to the Ukrainians. And about a week after 484 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 2: the war started, the West froze three hundred billion dollars 485 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 2: of central bank reserves belonging to the Russian government. And 486 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: so one of the conclusions I came to really quickly 487 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 2: is that money should be used for the defense and 488 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 2: reconstruction of Ukraine. And so for the last three and 489 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 2: a half years, I've been using the same networks, the 490 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 2: same politicians, the same government officials, the same everybody who 491 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 2: I'd worked with on the Magnitski Act to try to 492 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 2: convince them to confiscate that money to give to Ukraine. 493 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: As you look back on your life, do you wish 494 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 1: you had done something different? 495 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? People often say, you know, what would you do differently? 496 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 2: And the answer is, when I finished Stanford, if I 497 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 2: had stayed out in California. You know a lot of 498 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: people wouldn't have died, and you know I probably would 499 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 2: probably be doing just as well. This tragedy has given 500 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: me a mission in my life, meaning and I've done 501 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 2: a lot of things to help a lot of people, 502 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 2: which does give me some joy in spite of the dangers. 503 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You 504 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or 505 00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 1: wherever you listen.