WEBVTT - Rick Wilson, Michael Tomasky & Jonathan Blitzer 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.200 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.160 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:09.120 today's best minds and. 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.520 Nazis march proudley through the streets of Nashville this weekend. 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:14.920 We have such a great show for you. Today, the 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:17.520 New Republic's Michael Tamaski joins us to talk about the 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.160 media coverage of the twenty twenty four election. That we'll 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:22.640 talk to the New Yorkers Jonathan Blitzer about his new 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:26.079 book Everyone Who Is Gone is here, the United States, 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:29.560 Central America and the making of a crisis. But first 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.440 we have the host of the Enemy's List, the Lincoln Project, 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.040 z owned Rick Wilson. 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:38.000 Welcome back to Fast Politics. It's Monday, and that means 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:43.040 Rick Wilson, let's go. We're both in terrible moods. 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:47.040 Fucking cranky today. I mean, we're both just like bitchy 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:47.840 people today. 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.120 The first thing we're going to talk about here is 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:53.960 the Oh my god, let's just get this out here. 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:59.640 No one is swamping out any presidential candidates period. Paragraph 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:00.800 not happening. 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:01.720 You know what. 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:05.760 I am so fucking done with these people who think 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.760 I'm going to propose a very clever political strategy and say. 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:11.080 That Jew Biden should retire. 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.759 Oh yes, we'll replace him magically with with who? 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:15.600 With who? 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.720 You fucking morons, There is no option here. You got 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:21.959 to dance with the one that brung you, fight with 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:23.600 the army you came to war with. 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:28.520 This is so goddamn dumb. I you know what it is. 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:29.399 I'm sorry. 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.320 It's a luxury good for people who have never run 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.600 a goddamn race, who've never worked in an actual election, 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:39.160 who've never done politics at the retail level. This idea 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.080 that oh, well, it's so simple, we'll just swap out 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.400 Biden Harris for who who? 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:45.479 Exactly? True? 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.040 How about two white people, let's swap them out for right? 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:54.760 This idea that there's some democratic machine that is going 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:59.080 to go in there, right, the Council of Owls. He's 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:01.600 going to come out and be like, sorry, Biden, you're 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:04.840 eighty one. We've had a talk, we've decided it's enough, 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:10.120 and you know, sorry, Kamala, you're the highest woman elected 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:12.160 ever in America and the. 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:15.320 First African American woman in the vice presidential position. 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:19.120 Yeah, but we've decided, the Council of vows we know better, 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.560 because this is the Batman movie, and so we're going 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.520 to swap you both out for two. It just is 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.040 so insane. It's not going to happen. 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:30.120 I mean, I hear this Molly so often. I know 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:30.679 you do too. 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.800 And my question is always who, who exactly? Who exactly? 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.280 Right now? Are you going to pick up the phone and. 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:41.800 Call Michelle Oh, a woman who has said she will 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:43.560 never run for elected office? 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:44.720 Right? Get like? 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.600 Oh? Govin's ready? Okay, great? Sure tell me another. Tell 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:54.000 me any practical political person, any professional person who has 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.400 been in an elections, who has run a campaign, who 0:02:57.440 --> 0:03:00.640 has been a candidate in a national campaign. Every single 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:04.320 person knows this is a process that begins two or 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:08.000 three years before the actual election day. The moving parts 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:12.480 are astounding in their complexity and their expense, and the 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.200 time it takes to put them together, and the arrogance 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:20.240 of people who believe that they've got some simple option here. Look, 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:24.560 is it hard? Of course? Campaigns should be hard. They're difficult, 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.480 They're complex, and is by and old. Oh my god, 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.680 you just fucking notice now, great people brilliant. 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:32.000 So is Trump. 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:33.880 And here's the thing that I've said to a lot 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:35.480 of people who've done that, and have brought this up 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:37.760 to me, and I said, who's the one person ever 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.320 in history? Now, as of right now, in the primaries 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.080 and general elections, twenty eight people have run against Donald Trump. 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:45.160 Who's the one person who's ever beaten him. That would 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:48.120 be Joseph Robin Att motherfucking bob. So they can stop 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.440 this bullshit. It needs to stop. It is the most 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:59.000 a feat bullshit, counterproductive, self referential, home yoga dick sucking 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.960 I've ever heard in my life. It needs to fucking stop. 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:06.680 Tell us what you really say. I been clear enough, 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.680 not clear. I have a theory that I want to 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.280 try out with you, which is that condonry has become 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:19.000 completely removed from the real world. Yes, and part of 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:23.200 it maybe because people are not reading mainstream media anymore. Right. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:26.960 We have a country of three hundred and thirty million people, right, 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:31.239 and a million tuned into The Daily Show. Okay, say 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:36.000 twenty million people watch that dumb YouTube clip of John 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.320 Stewart saying that Joe Biden was too old twenty even, thirty, 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:43.159 even forty. You still have a country of hundreds of 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.200 millions of people, and I think the pundit industrial complex 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.880 is so removed from real voters that we're almost going 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:52.440 on nothing. 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:56.040 There is a great gift that I have in this world. 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.840 I have campaigned in thirty nine states. I don't live 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:02.479 in Washington, I don't live in New York. I have 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:06.400 a relatively greater exposure to America than a lot of 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:11.200 people who write highly paid columns for expensive and elite publications. 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.359 The stuff they think matters, and this is also the 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:19.520 DC consultocracy. The stuff they think matters to Americans is 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:23.160 completely disconnected from reality. 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.479 So on the opposite, yes you are, That's why we 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:27.520 get along so well. 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:29.680 But at a heartfel conversation of the day with a 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:33.160 Democrat operative and he really spent a lot of time 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:35.400 trying to convince me that we need to talk about 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:39.040 prescription drug coverage and labor unions, and I'm like, what 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.200 the fuck are you talking about. Have you been anywhere 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.559 in America in the last five years. No one's talking 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:49.039 about that. They're talking about the things on the right. 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.320 They've got their immigration machine pumped up to eleven, They've 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.160 got their hate machine pumped up to eleven. Everywhere else, 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.400 people are terrified that democracy is falling apart and that 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.400 women are going to be put into the Handmaid's Tale. 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.560 This is not an easy lift anymore to just go 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:06.720 out and do a simple focus script and go, well, 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:08.960 here's what we're going to do. This is the fun issue. Oh, 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:10.920 it's jobs of the economy and education. 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:11.880 No it's not. 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:14.880 It's stopped being that a long time ago. We need 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.479 to rereel about what's happening in the country. And not 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:22.039 everybody is gonna is going to fit into what clever pundits, 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:25.039 and you and I are both clever pundits ourselves. But 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:28.440 the idea that you can you can spin this way, 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.240 to spin this thing out and say, oh, we'll just 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.400 swap out Joe Biden. It's a luxury good by people 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.760 who do not understand how politics works or the stakes 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:37.159 at hand. 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.880 So aight point two million people watch the Daily Show 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.680 on YouTube, which is good. That's good. I mean, look, 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.000 I think it's probably about ten million Americans. 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:49.320 Look, I had the number one critique of Biden from 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.360 all these people. Here's the thing that fascinates me. It's 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.680 not how's the economy doing. Oh, it's terrible, Biden's really 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:57.680 fucked it up. Nope, that's not their critique. You know, 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.080 Biden hasn't sufficiently, you know, fought back against ops. That's 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:04.120 not their critique. Biden hasn't been a strong leader in 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.560 foreign policy. That's not their critique. Their critique is Biden's old. 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.040 We aesthetically don't like old people, and therefore we should 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.559 have someone young and fresh to run against Trump. Where 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.200 the exchange here isn't young versus old, it's old versus evil. 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.600 Right, Well, I also think like voters, and again I 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.160 don't want to make sense here, but voters are old. 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:26.840 Yes, the average voter in this country is in their 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.960 late forties, late forties, mollie. 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:31.920 And I don't know if that's the mean motors a median, 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:34.960 but like, my sense is that a lot of people 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.600 who show up to vote are are a lot older 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:38.000 than that. 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.720 For the media and voting age is sixty one. 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:46.800 Yeah, I mean, so that's the thing is, like, I 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.280 don't actually think people vote on agism. 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:53.000 America is a post policy country on both sides. 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:55.920 Frankly, we Democrats are trying. 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.720 Let me put it this way, Barack Obama, who is 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.320 the most brilliant campaign and candidate of the twentieth century, 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.000 and I mean that as a high compliment. He had 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.400 a two word policy, hope change, And I remember sitting 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.560 in focus groups trying to like pin it down, like 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:12.520 when we were back then, it was like, don't you 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.360 know liberal Marxist Barack Obama will impose. 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.960 Full communism And they were like no, I like hope 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:22.120 and change. And on the Republican side with Trump, it's 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:23.679 like it's like, I'm angry. 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.040 I'm a sixty five year old white guy who drives 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:28.320 a truck and I haven't had an direction in twenty years. 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.640 Take revenge on my enemies for me. 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.520 Donald, right, exactly. 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:34.920 I've had too much coffee this morning. 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:36.880 Well we both have had too much coffee that, to 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.240 be honest, but I think so I want to say, 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.080 Biden is not being swapped out for Michelle Obama. 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:43.160 Nope, not happening. 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.760 The first person to ever tell me that Biden was 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.480 going to be swapped out for Michelle Obama was Michael Moore. Well, 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:51.640 Michael Moore once told me that, and I was like, 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.120 right before the it was Hillary. Hillary is going to 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.400 be swapped out for Michelle Obama or should be? And 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:58.200 I was like, yeah, okay. 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.840 Look I get it. People like Michelle Obama. That's fine, 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:02.880 And you know what, She's a likable person. 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:04.559 I like her too, She's great. 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.320 She has not spent a lot of her post Washington 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:11.080 time being a terrible human being, you know, and Cobb 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:14.920 Wesser for that, right. But this idea that any of 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:19.520 this is mechanically doable or practical or easy, or that 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:23.200 it will change the fundamental course of the election is 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:28.720 astounding to me. I don't understand what mental breakdown is 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:31.920 happening in the heads of elite pundits who keep saying this. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.120 Okay, Jesse's bored. He just texted me, We've done this 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.280 too much so and I don't want to you know, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.559 we don't want to lose the youngest I know. Right, 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.880 Can we talk about Fanny Willis? Because I want to 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:43.839 talk about Fanny Wellis. 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:45.320 Let's talk about Fanny Willis. 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:49.440 I'm watching Fanny Willis yesterday and I'm thinking, I don't know, 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.600 maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking, fuck these fucking people 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:57.559 who are dragging her through these Like in my mind, 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.840 she was pissed, but I was more pissed for her, 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.080 Like I did not feel like Republicans came out looking 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:08.240 great yesterday. Now the people I talked to horror. Do 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.560 you see people were like that was a little over 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:14.520 the top. She should have been less enraged. But I 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:18.280 actually think that the rage that she showed a lot 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:19.599 of women related. 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.320 To I actually agree with that, and I'll tell you why. 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.400 Because the idea that the Republican opo machine has come 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:30.720 up with is, oh, well, we can disqualify her because 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:32.120 of her personal life. 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.120 Is that really the game they want to play is. 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:40.120 That this is a problem they want it like, I 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.839 just I wonder if that doesn't have a certain potential 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.679 downside for a whole variety of Republicans. 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.080 I mean, this is the thing where they say Biden 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.200 has dementia and then Trump goes on to make all 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:53.440 these mistakes. 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:54.880 Right, and the Trump goes out and speaks at like 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:56.080 ancient Sumerian. 0:10:56.120 --> 0:11:01.640 It goes, yes, he's. 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:05.080 Right, French. Well, she's divorced, he's divorced. They are not 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.960 even dating anymore. There's a whole thing about when she says, 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:11.520 you know, we stop being physical, but we didn't have 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.120 the talk for another month. And it's like, in my mind, 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.720 I thought, like, this is such a bad look. They're 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.640 all trying to protect this guy who had an affair 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.800 with a porn star while his third wife had just 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:29.720 delivered their child and then gave her money. 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.280 Does anyone want to make an argument that Donald Trump 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:36.480 is somehow this figure of moral probity anybody, anybody out 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:41.160 there at all, because I guarantee you Donald trucks, Donald truck, Wow, 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.839 Donald truck a lot of coffee this morning, kids, a 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:49.800 lot of coffee. Donald Trump has a sordid, grotesque personal life. 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.720 And in his case, the MOGA's like, that's the sound 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.360 of his viruinity and masculinity. But he'll fuck anything that moves, 0:11:56.360 --> 0:12:01.640 including office furniture. Oh oh what Trump? And Oh I'm 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:03.400 gonna get in trouble again because I just use the 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.320 official mocking the Trump maga voter voice. 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:08.880 Well, I forgot Rick see it in. 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.200 I think that that's a really good point that you know, 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.280 you have one set of rules for Trump and another 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:21.640 set of rules for everyone else. So Fanny Willis is divorced, 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.000 she's dating someone. First of all, Like, I actually do 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.720 agree with the people who said, like he should have 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.640 stepped down, like don't hire him. You have to be 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.200 so careful when you're going after Trump people because they'll 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.760 take everything you do and blow it up. But that said, 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.320 the case here is that somehow she did something corrupt 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.000 and they just don't have any evidence to prove it. 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.400 And then you have this other story running in the news, 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.120 which is that Trump is taking over the RNC so 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:52.960 it will pay his legal bills. 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.080 So this guy from North Carolina that they're putting in there, 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.720 yes he's an election denier, but he's essentially fundamentally uninteresting 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.360 in the RNC takeover the fact that they're putting Lara 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.000 Trump as the co chair of the RNC. You know, 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.760 Lara Trump is not qualified. During the roller meat station 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:13.040 at a wah wah Okay, she is a profoundly unequipped 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.880 person for this job except for the management of the grift, 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.400 and that is entirely what will happen. And they're putting 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:23.760 Chris Losovita, his strategist, in as chief operating officer, so 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:26.640 Chris actually knows where all the bodies are and it 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:31.280 can bleed the turn up until it is absolutely fucking dry. 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:35.319 By the time this is over, the Republican National Committee 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.760 will be utterly bankrupt. They'll have to sell the building 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.400 on C Street. It is amazing to. 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:43.960 Me what they're about to get away with here. 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.120 Just like game is out for me. You are a 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:51.120 Republican donor. Okay, maybe you donate to Trump, but are 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.640 you going to donate to the RNC when it is 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:55.360 just in the service of Trump. 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.040 The rnc's major donor pool is going to dry up quickly. 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.440 The rnc's small dollarpool has dried up a good bit, 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.280 in part because the only thing that works for Republican 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.400 donors now in their direct mail email campaigns is the 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:10.080 name Trump. 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:11.120 Ain't nobody out. 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.640 There going, yeah, I need me some more of that, 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.640 Tommy Tuberville, ooh no, it is now Donald Trump. 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.240 Unless the email says trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:23.720 Trump trum trum trum trump tup trumpp trump, the small 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.120 dollar donors go, it must be one of them cook 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.360 establishment of Rhano Republicans. I'm not going to vote for him, 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.440 and I'm not going to send any money, so RANA. 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.920 They have bled their email list dry. This is a 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:38.680 little secret in the industry side. The RNC email lists 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:40.840 have been sucked dry. 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:45.240 They are desiccated, they are bled, bled, bled, and there's 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.200 not much more blood to get out of the out 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:48.560 of that particular turn up. 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.400 Oh well, lots prayers, whatever. 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.920 Yeah, thoughts and prayers. Look, there will be some money 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.240 that comes in there, it won't be what it should 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.960 be or needs to be. They're not going to raise 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.960 for five hundred million dollars to fund a convention and 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.640 everything else based on the fact that. 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:08.720 They need that money for other stuff. 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:10.960 I mean, right, but you're not going to get it. 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.040 It is also, while they're afraid and they'll give their 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.040 money to Trump, they're not afraid of whoever this mooke 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:19.440 is from North Carolina. 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:20.960 You're not really afraid of that. 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.640 They're going to spend a lot of time figuring out 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.440 what the minimum dollar figure to give to Donald Trump. 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:36.320 Thank you, You are welcome. Did you know Rick Wilson 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.560 and I are bringing together some friends for a general 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.240 election kickoff party at City Winery in New York on 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:47.600 March sixth. We're going to be chatting right after Super 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.760 Tuesday about what's going on, and it is going to 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:58.280 probably be the one fun night for the next eighty days. 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.840 If you're in the New York area, please come by 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.440 and join us. You can go to City Winery's website 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:05.680 and grab a ticket. 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.200 Michael Tumaski is the editor of The New Republic. 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:14.280 Welcome back too fast politics, my bestie and also the 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.960 person who taught me to write no pressure a mike 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:25.240 to MASKI. Oh shucks. So let's talk about the unique 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.800 moment in history we are in here. No pressure, Yeah, 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.640 no pressure. I mean, you're not incredibly old, but if 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:36.560 you were incredibly old, no, But you've been covering American 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.360 politics for a long time, and it seems like right 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.760 now we're in a period that is both terrifying and 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:49.360 also crushingly boring. Discuss terrifying for sure. Boring Yeah, well 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:51.440 it's not boring, but it's repetitive. 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.080 Donald Trump has become boring. Although, yeah, it's a very 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.560 weird thing. He is both of these things. He's a 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.480 monster who is an imminent threat to you that I estates, 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:03.480 but his stick is really boring now. And you know, 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.639 I watched a little bit of from South Carolina. This 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.760 was his most recent speech. It was Wednesday night. You know, 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.960 did you see this jag about the photograph of him 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.400 golfing and you know how he looked fat and then 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:18.320 he complained about that. Did you see all this? 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.680 Now? The part of the seventeen hour speech that I watched. 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.440 And by the way, as someone who's sat through these speeches. 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.400 They really are like two two and a half hours. 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:31.159 I mean they're fucking long. 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:34.320 Oh yeah, people walk out now, you know all the time. 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:36.840 You know, you don't see that reported much, but it's true. 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.639 Yeah, because they're very boring. And he also has a 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:43.000 couple lies. He just goes all in on and the 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.640 people who watch him are like, I mean, again, this 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:49.680 is an unfair comparison, but they're little like deadheads, right, 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.360 like this is their thing, this is a raison. 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.920 Datra I think that's true of a big chuck of them. 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.280 I mean, I know people that I went to high 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.679 school with from my Facebook page, who. 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.160 Sharton Caveat you grew up in West Virginia. 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:04.239 I grew up in West Virginia. Yeah, so I know 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.680 a lot of these folks were new. But I still 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:08.000 see you know a lot of them say, oh I've 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:10.760 seen him four times, I've seen him six times. So yeah, 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.000 it is a little bit like that some folks. Half 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.040 of it doesn't make any sense, right. 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.320 But it doesn't necessarily matter. It doesn't matter to his people, 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.680 right because he occupies a different zone than all other 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:24.600 normal politicians. 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:24.880 Right. 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:29.520 He gets away with things that even people like Mike Pence. 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:32.920 The things that Trump gets away with are not transferable 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.639 to anyone else except maybe Don Junior. 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.160 Yeah, and not even him in quote the same way. 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:41.119 But I don't know how to explain it. But it's mystical, 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:46.520 and that is fascist. Between the fascist leader and his followers, 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:52.480 there is this mystical, inexplicable bond that exists that transcends 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.240 any particular thing the person might say or not say, 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.040 or do or whatever. So you know, like Trump makes 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.320 all these he makes more verbal guests Joe Biden does. 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:03.480 But you know, they don't care, they don't pay attention, 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.840 and so it doesn't become a mean well, there are 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.000 other reasons it doesn't become because the Democrats don't push it. 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:11.879 They don't fight the way the Republicans. 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:13.720 Yeah, they don't fight the way I always do on 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.359 things like that. But you can say anything. What do 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:18.960 you think he could say that with Bosi's people. I 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:21.600 don't know that there's any He could call them idiots 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:23.160 and they'd love him. He probably has. 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.240 I mean, in all those hours of speeches, he said 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.959 a lot of stuff. You know. I want to like 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:34.199 talk for a minute about how difficult it is to 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:41.080 write about what it is, this authoritarian because it's two things, right. 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:46.320 It's Trump as a sort of Mussolini character, Mussolini asque character, right, 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:50.320 someone who is bombastic and amusing in a way that 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.719 makes him seem less dangerous. That's why I picked Mussolini 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:57.840 because like Mussolini. Obviously there are many ways in which 0:19:57.840 --> 0:19:59.960 Trump is not like him. But that sort of bumback, 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.280 a humorous kind of we're all in on the joke 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:07.600 is actually really does come from there. But I'm curious, 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.399 like the problems we have now of covering this is 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.800 that we know what it is, and yet it feels 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.000 like there's a lot of anxiety in the mainstream media 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:23.479 about how to not look like a partisan when covering 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.480 the rise of authoritarianism. And I feel like we're maybe 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.919 worrying about the wrong things. I mean, you and I 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.280 are not, they are, yeah, right, right. 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:32.720 Right, yeah. 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:36.280 Reporters does some reporters covering this, and particularly editors, and 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.879 I think there should be more focus on editors, Like specifically, 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.359 the people who write the front page headlines, are the 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.560 home page headlines for the New York Times in the 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:49.720 Washington Post. Those people have enormous enormous influence, who are they. 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.040 I don't know, Maybe you do. I don't know who 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:56.239 they are, but like just every word they choose is 0:20:56.320 --> 0:21:00.000 so important, and everything they decide to hilight is so important. 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:03.160 So we saw the last weekend that her report came 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:05.600 out last Thursday afternoon. It was a big story, and 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:08.320 understandably so I'm not saying it shouldn't be a story. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:13.240 I mean whether her was behaving in accordance with prosecutorial 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:15.760 norms in saying some of the things he said of 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:16.359 that report. 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:17.720 No, I don't think he was. 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:22.399 Andrew Weisman doesn't think so. And he worked on a 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:23.400 special council. 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.720 Yeah, you know, nobody thinks he did. But he said 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:28.800 they were news. But they were news for three days 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:30.600 or two and a half days, And so you know, 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:32.720 I woke up Saturday morning. Of course, they led the 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:36.800 papers on Friday morning. Then I woke up Saturday morning, 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:40.160 getting my first coffee and walking my computer, wondering, oh boy, 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:42.280 what's going to be the lead story? Don't tell me. 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:46.160 And yes, Biden's mental acuity again for the second day running. 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:49.520 Now that's a choice. That's a specific decision you know 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:52.040 that they made. Did they need to make that? Was? 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:53.960 I don't remember what else was going on in the 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:54.840 news that day. 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:55.120 But a lot. 0:21:55.280 --> 0:22:01.520 Trumpet had rejected NATO and encouraged Russia to attack NATO allies, Yes, 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:05.240 but for not paying their bills, the irony upon iron a. Yes. 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:10.040 Anyway, these are choices that mainstream media institutions made, and 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:12.720 years another that I wrote about this in my piece 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.520 on Monday when I was talking about all this stuff. 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:18.679 Trump gave a speech Friday night before an NRA crowd 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:23.560 in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and he referred to it as Saturday afternoon. 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:25.920 He said, what a nice Saturday afternoon. 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:27.359 Believe me, I don't have to do this. 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:29.600 If I didn't believe the I'd be somewhere else, I'd 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:31.720 be very nice place. But it was Friday night and 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.680 he called it Saturday afternoon. Now, the New York Times 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:36.960 in the Washington Posts both had reporters there. They both 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:39.800 ran stories on this speech. Neither of them even mentioned 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:41.560 that he did that. And that was one of about 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:45.639 five guests. He called Biden Obama again and other things. 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:47.760 None of them were even mentioned in the Times and 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:50.200 Post speeches. Now, if Biden had done those things, don't 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:52.480 you think they'd be mentioned in the In the news 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:54.560 articles I kind of do. I certainly do. 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:55.359 The way they. 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:58.280 Covered these things, it's it's just it's it's mysterifying something. 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:00.639 I was somewhere the other day with a bunch of 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:03.840 really smart, educated political people and they were like, well, 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:05.639 they need to get by and out there, and I 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:08.200 was like, you guys, he gave a speech on Monday. 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.359 On Tuesday, he spoke to whatever. I mean, you know, 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:14.439 I watch c SPAN, so I see all the times 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:18.000 he speaks. And what's happened is that he only gets 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:21.360 covered when he gaffs. So when he gives I mean, 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:23.920 I heard him give a speech that was a very 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:28.439 long speech, and it was quite he was speaking quite quickly, 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:32.680 which for me, you know, and my father might be hereditary, 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:35.800 we have some you know, we're not fast talkers. It 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:38.920 requires a lot of like mental acuity, which I at 0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:41.920 forty five no longer have nobody covered it at all. 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:44.600 And so literally I'm with all of these smart people 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:46.280 and they're like, well, they should get him out there more, 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:49.120 and I'm like, he's out there every fucking. 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:52.040 Day, Yes, of course he is. And now he's not 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:53.920 out there. I will say this, he's not out there 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:57.320 necessarily like in campaign mode every day, you know, when 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:00.240 when you're out there as president, it's not the same 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:02.320 as being in campaign. 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:05.280 I mean unless you're Trump. Yeah, and everything is just 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:07.720 running and trying to stay to jail. 0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.280 Right exactly. So they could probably do a little bit 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:12.960 more of that. But yeah, the other problem here, Molly, 0:24:13.160 --> 0:24:18.400 is like the way news organizations, mainstream news organizations, define news. 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:22.520 News by definition is something that is new. 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:23.160 Now. 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:27.399 If Trump says for the five hundredth time, in some way, 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:30.639 shape or form, that I'm going to subvert democracy if 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:33.720 you make me president again, it stops being news. I mean, 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:36.840 it's still shocking, outrageous, and it should be on the 0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:39.480 front page even if it's the five hundredth time. But 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:41.959 news organizations say, oh, that's not new this, And so 0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:46.800 that's how they diminish the threat and normalize it because 0:24:46.920 --> 0:24:50.520 the more he says and think about it's a terrible paradox, 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:55.600 the more he says outrageous things, the less newsworthy they become, 0:24:55.680 --> 0:25:00.640 and the more normal two on that that's profound, Eh. 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:04.800 That's why they pay you the medium books. Yeah, yeah, 0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:06.919 I mean I think that's right. The other thing that 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:11.200 I think is pretty interesting that we probably should talk 0:25:11.240 --> 0:25:15.159 about is this special election in New York's third Yeah? 0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:19.000 Where because I mean again, and everyone gets mad at 0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:21.119 me for saying this. Why everyone gets mad at me 0:25:21.160 --> 0:25:22.960 for saying this, I don't know, but like, so, the 0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:25.280 whole theory of the case with Biden is that Biden 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:29.240 should drop out because the polls show he's behind. Okay, right, 0:25:29.280 --> 0:25:31.159 I mean that's it. That's all that you know. And 0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:33.800 he's old, so that's right. I mean, there's not any 0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:37.200 other information here that I'm missing, right, No, not at all. Okay, 0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:41.000 So this is the whole you should drop out of incumbency, 0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:44.080 which is an enormous advantage. And he's been quite in 0:25:44.160 --> 0:25:47.480 my mind anyway, quite a good president. The Inflation Reduction Act, 0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:50.480 and I don't want to sound too smug here, but 0:25:50.640 --> 0:25:53.440 has actually done all the things they promised it would. 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:57.240 But here is Joe Biden. So this whole idea is 0:25:57.240 --> 0:26:02.159 based on polls New York's third district. Pole's show Swazi 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:07.240 barely eking it out. He wins by six points, actually 0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:08.240 by eight points. 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:11.280 Yeah, no, I noticed Mike Johnson said Biden wanted by 0:26:11.320 --> 0:26:13.840 eight points and Swazi didn't. Yeah, he won by seven 0:26:13.840 --> 0:26:14.520 point eight. 0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:17.720 Right, seven point eight points, so a sixteen point swing. 0:26:18.000 --> 0:26:20.280 Sixteen point swing. As I heard you say on TV 0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:22.560 the other day, you argue that it's a bell Weather 0:26:22.640 --> 0:26:24.800 and Mike Johnson argued that it's not at bell Weather. 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:28.199 I'm on tem Molly here. It's absolutely bell Weather. But 0:26:28.240 --> 0:26:31.440 you know, it's also like it's instructive of the way 0:26:31.880 --> 0:26:37.320 that the mainstream media unconsciously in bibes right wing medias 0:26:37.320 --> 0:26:40.120 and tropes and talking points. It was the right wing 0:26:40.200 --> 0:26:43.120 media that said this post. I grant you Pols said 0:26:43.119 --> 0:26:46.360 it too, But the New York Post banging on about 0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:50.600 the migrant Christness and sanctuary Swazi and all this crowd. 0:26:52.000 --> 0:26:53.000 I didn't see that. 0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:57.879 Yeah, yeah, there's a website Sanctuary Swas Jesus Christ. So 0:26:58.080 --> 0:27:00.840 it's the New York Post banging on about all this stuff, 0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:04.199 and so they put it into mainstream of borders heads 0:27:04.640 --> 0:27:06.399 that oh, this is going to be all about the 0:27:06.400 --> 0:27:08.800 border and it's going to be a disaster for Democrats, 0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:13.400 and then Democrats start panicking and Republicans start looking over 0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:17.439 as it turns out dramatically overcome, and everybody expects a 0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:19.480 close race or even for him to lose, and that 0:27:19.600 --> 0:27:23.080 it's not remotely close, called it ten o'clock. Yeah, it 0:27:23.240 --> 0:27:26.040 wasn't it all close? And he won every part of 0:27:26.080 --> 0:27:28.119 the district as far as I can see. And this 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:32.520 keeps happening, as Simon Rosenberg keeps playing out, it keeps happening. 0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:36.000 There was the Pennsylvania House race that night too, on 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:38.960 Tuesday night, where the Democrat won. That was a more 0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:42.440 democratic district than this one was. But still Democrats keep 0:27:42.480 --> 0:27:47.000 winning these special elections. And there really is a correlation 0:27:47.440 --> 0:27:51.560 between these special elections and how things turn out in November, 0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:53.800 because it tells you where people's heads are, and people's 0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:57.560 heads are. Republicans are extreme, Republicans are against the board. 0:27:57.560 --> 0:28:01.080 They've taken away abortion rights. Now they this nonsense of 0:28:01.119 --> 0:28:03.800 the border where they're refusing to fix a problem that 0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:06.359 they're highlighting all the time. So yeah, so all the 0:28:06.520 --> 0:28:09.879 what political scientists called the fundamentals are totally in the 0:28:09.880 --> 0:28:13.440 Democrats direction. The unfortunate fact is that Joe Biden's eighty 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:15.919 one years old. Of all the things he can do, 0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:17.600 the one thing you can't do is get me young 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:19.960 if you were seventy five seven points ahead. 0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:24.040 But it is interesting to me The New York Times again, 0:28:24.359 --> 0:28:26.320 which both of us have written for and both of 0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:28.880 us appreciate, and there's a lot of good stuff in there. 0:28:29.080 --> 0:28:33.439 The New York Times opinion page has literally like you know, 0:28:33.920 --> 0:28:38.840 trans panic and Biden's age, Like you know, if I 0:28:38.920 --> 0:28:43.040 see Ross, both are the idea that Republicans are operating 0:28:43.080 --> 0:28:45.760 in good faith, even Ross, who a lot of people 0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:48.880 like whatever, I don't have a sense that they're operating 0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:51.400 in good faith. I want to talk about the border 0:28:51.560 --> 0:28:53.920 for a second. So I actually was listening to the 0:28:54.000 --> 0:28:58.400 MPR Politics podcast, which can both be maddening but also great. 0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:02.280 They were talking about how like there's so much emphasis 0:29:02.280 --> 0:29:05.560 for voters on the border, right, like Republicans. It's the 0:29:05.600 --> 0:29:08.120 same with the Biden stuff, right, bidens Old, bidens Ald. 0:29:08.240 --> 0:29:10.800 And then Trump gets up there and says something that 0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:14.200 is a gaff like Saturday morning, and with the border, 0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:16.600 it's sort of the same thing, right, the border, the border, 0:29:16.680 --> 0:29:20.160 the border, the border. And then it's like, well, Republicans 0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:23.720 killed that legislation because Trump told them to. 0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:27.400 Yeah, I don't know if people noticed. You know, Greg Sargent, 0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:29.960 who now is my oll leg at the New Republic, 0:29:30.400 --> 0:29:32.560 There's been New York guest many times he wrote a 0:29:32.560 --> 0:29:35.320 piece last week for T and R picked up a 0:29:35.480 --> 0:29:39.640 pole that said, people haven't really yet noticed that this 0:29:39.800 --> 0:29:42.720 was Trump's fault, so Democrats really have to drive that. 0:29:42.840 --> 0:29:46.000 Oh maybe they did notice it in the New York 0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:48.720 Special District because they're paying more attention. There were ads 0:29:48.720 --> 0:29:49.840 of stuff. 0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:51.840 Right, But it's an opportunity for Democrats. 0:29:52.080 --> 0:29:55.320 Yeah, it is, it is, and Democrats I think again. 0:29:55.600 --> 0:29:57.800 You know, this is where like Corses went on this 0:29:58.120 --> 0:30:01.200 smart jag last night that there's something I've written about 0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:04.440 a lot too. Republicans just kind of like reflexively assume 0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:08.320 that they represent Middle America and that Democrats represent Burke 0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:11.640 and the Upper West Side. Well, that is not true. 0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:15.840 It's just not true. Republicans are extremists. Their positions are extreme. 0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:20.760 Most Middle Americans, most swing voters in Michigan and Wisconsin 0:30:20.840 --> 0:30:24.200 and so on, tending to support Democratic positions much more 0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:29.000 than Republican positions. They don't want extreme, harsh policies on 0:30:29.040 --> 0:30:31.600 the border. They want the border police, for sure. They 0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:33.719 want us to have a border, and they want there 0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:36.240 to be a process, but they want a human process. 0:30:36.240 --> 0:30:36.440 You know. 0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:38.760 They don't want to treat people like dogs. They want 0:30:38.800 --> 0:30:41.720 to treat people like people, and they want opportunities for 0:30:42.000 --> 0:30:43.800 past to citizenship and so forth. 0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:46.920 But the reason they want those things is because they've 0:30:46.960 --> 0:30:51.200 been told that the border is chaos and that migrants 0:30:51.200 --> 0:30:55.280 are flooding into the country, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, 0:30:55.520 --> 0:30:58.800 the reality is, yes, you have to have a path 0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:01.640 to citizenship because these people can't work. So you're having 0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:05.440 these people come in be poor, be forced to stay 0:31:05.480 --> 0:31:07.880 poor because they can't work because there is no path. 0:31:08.240 --> 0:31:12.880 But ultimately, the only way the economy survives, especially as 0:31:12.920 --> 0:31:17.360 birth rates decline in wealthy nations, is with immigration. Katherine 0:31:17.400 --> 0:31:19.040 Rampell had a really good piece about this in The 0:31:19.040 --> 0:31:23.040 Wasting Bos that actually immigration is a huge economic boon, 0:31:23.320 --> 0:31:25.600 and especially in a tight labor market. 0:31:25.840 --> 0:31:27.200 Yeah, absolutely huge. 0:31:27.720 --> 0:31:31.320 I think your average person doesn't read reports about this, 0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:33.960 but they kind of instinctively know it. They know it 0:31:34.000 --> 0:31:36.320 from their communities, they know it from they see you know, 0:31:36.600 --> 0:31:39.480 Salvador and restaurants and so on and so on. They 0:31:39.560 --> 0:31:43.760 just know an anecdote that immigrants add to our economic 0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:47.280 well being. And so this is why, as I said, 0:31:47.320 --> 0:31:50.360 you know, I mean, yeah, people want a policed border, 0:31:50.400 --> 0:31:54.000 but they don't want families to be separated. They don't 0:31:54.080 --> 0:31:57.959 want what Donald Trump and Republicans want. They want a 0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:01.360 reasonable middle of the road policy, and so Republicans know 0:32:01.520 --> 0:32:05.840 they don't represent Middle America, but that idea is fixed 0:32:06.080 --> 0:32:07.640 in the media's collective mind. 0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:12.360 So interesting and right. Thank you so much, Mike TAMASKI. 0:32:12.440 --> 0:32:13.440 I hope you'll come back. 0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:16.200 I will come back at any time, your Molly. Thank you. 0:32:17.760 --> 0:32:20.440 Jonathan Blitzer is a writer at The New Yorker and 0:32:20.520 --> 0:32:24.280 author of Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here? The United States, 0:32:24.280 --> 0:32:26.720 Central America and the Making of a Crisis. 0:32:27.120 --> 0:32:31.240 Welcome to Fast Politics. Jonathan Blitzer, Thank you so much 0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:33.680 for having me son of Wolf. No, I'm just kidding. 0:32:33.680 --> 0:32:36.560 You're not related to Wolf Blitzer, right, This is a PSA. 0:32:36.680 --> 0:32:40.840 Yeah right, this is the most brainworms nepo baby thing 0:32:40.960 --> 0:32:43.240 I do every day. It's like, I'm like, oh, yeah, 0:32:43.360 --> 0:32:47.400 obviously it's Wolf Blitzer son. You'd actually be Wolf Blitzer's grandson. 0:32:47.680 --> 0:32:50.640 As I was thinking about this, very stupid all right, So, anyway, 0:32:51.200 --> 0:32:55.200 you wrote this incredible book about the border. I always 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:59.920 wonder when books come out during the time when everyone 0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:03.200 is talking about you know, books take years and years 0:33:03.200 --> 0:33:05.920 and years to write, so they're almost impossible to time, 0:33:06.120 --> 0:33:07.160 So what happened. 0:33:08.040 --> 0:33:11.000 Well, it's funny because in a certain sense, obviously all 0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:13.440 of the drama and stress of the Southern border right 0:33:13.480 --> 0:33:15.600 now is good through the book insofar as people are 0:33:15.640 --> 0:33:18.280 talking about this issue. The thing I was primarily interested 0:33:18.320 --> 0:33:23.040 in was the arrival of Central American asylum seekers at 0:33:23.040 --> 0:33:25.080 the Southern border and kind of telling the history of 0:33:25.120 --> 0:33:27.280 how that came to be, which has been for the 0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:30.680 last decade at least, the kind of main story of 0:33:30.760 --> 0:33:33.280 how life at the border and beyond have changed in 0:33:33.320 --> 0:33:36.440 the United States. And now that remains the case. I mean, 0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:40.360 there's still huge numbers of Central Americans from mel Salvador, Guatemala, 0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:43.120 and Duras coming to the US seeking asylum, but now 0:33:43.200 --> 0:33:46.200 the situation has gotten even more global, and so now 0:33:46.360 --> 0:33:48.480 the main population of people showing up at the Southern 0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:51.160 border are Venezuelans, But then there are also people from 0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:53.560 a number of other countries in Latin America and in 0:33:53.600 --> 0:33:56.320 the world, and so it's kind of a collision of 0:33:56.400 --> 0:33:59.960 two things that were happening. And my sense of writing 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:02.800 all of this was, this problem isn't going anywhere, and 0:34:02.880 --> 0:34:04.959 I wanted to try to go back into the actual 0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:07.920 history and really understand some of the lives that helped 0:34:08.000 --> 0:34:10.880 kind of open up site lines into what the politics 0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:12.880 and policy and history of it all had been. And 0:34:12.920 --> 0:34:15.480 so now there's kind of a dual phenomenon to account 0:34:15.480 --> 0:34:18.600 for the one in my book, which is the last decade, 0:34:18.680 --> 0:34:21.040 and now we're entering kind of this new phase which 0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:24.160 is messier and even more dramatic in some ways. 0:34:24.520 --> 0:34:27.960 So let's talk for a minute. I would love it 0:34:27.960 --> 0:34:32.640 if you would just talk about what drives immigration here, 0:34:33.560 --> 0:34:37.000 what that looks like, so why these people want to 0:34:37.040 --> 0:34:39.280 come here, and what the factors are there. 0:34:39.560 --> 0:34:41.840 Yeah, so I would say kind of three ways of 0:34:41.880 --> 0:34:45.440 breaking that down, starting with the most recent developments at 0:34:45.440 --> 0:34:48.239 the border. So right now, what we're seeing is that 0:34:48.320 --> 0:34:52.400 the world on a whole is experiencing more mass migration 0:34:52.480 --> 0:34:54.319 than it has in decades. And the people who are 0:34:54.320 --> 0:34:57.160 showing up at the US southern border are people fleeing 0:34:57.360 --> 0:34:59.480 all kinds of things over a kind of a range 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:01.759 of different countries and areas. And so you know, you 0:35:01.800 --> 0:35:06.880 have Venezuelans fleeing collapsing totalitarian regime and they've been fleeing 0:35:06.880 --> 0:35:09.719 in huge numbers since at least twenty fifteen, I mean 0:35:09.760 --> 0:35:13.400 millions of people. You have, for instance, Haitians who have 0:35:13.440 --> 0:35:16.320 been displaced for more than a decade following the twenty 0:35:16.320 --> 0:35:19.440 to ten earthquake, who had resettled in other countries in 0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:23.000 South America, but who were uprooted again as a result 0:35:23.120 --> 0:35:26.160 of the economic fallout from COVID, and so they're now 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:27.919 back on the move and have been on the move. 0:35:28.160 --> 0:35:32.160 You know for many, many years. You have Nicaraguins fleeing 0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:35.800 a repressive government in Nicaraguile, Cubans fleeing a repressive government 0:35:35.840 --> 0:35:39.319 in Cuba, people leaving their homes in large numbers because 0:35:39.320 --> 0:35:43.480 of the ravages of climate change, you know, hurricanes, major storms. 0:35:43.480 --> 0:35:46.239 People have lost their homes, their livelihoods. You know, you 0:35:46.320 --> 0:35:49.440 have all of these things happening at once. And what 0:35:49.600 --> 0:35:51.799 has been going on in Central America for many years 0:35:51.880 --> 0:35:54.839 has been really nothing short of a mass exodus. And 0:35:54.880 --> 0:35:57.640 that story is what I'm primarily interested in the book, 0:35:57.680 --> 0:35:59.120 which is a story that kind of goes back to 0:35:59.120 --> 0:36:02.279 the nineteen eighties, but the kind of primary reason, I 0:36:02.320 --> 0:36:05.239 would say, on the whole to explain why so many 0:36:05.280 --> 0:36:07.839 Central Americans were seeking asylum in the United States. This 0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:10.960 over the last decade, from maybe twenty fourteen up until 0:36:10.960 --> 0:36:13.799 the last couple of years was a combination of things like, 0:36:14.160 --> 0:36:18.080 you know, massive crime, really horrific gang violence that had 0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:20.480 kind of dominated the region, and that incidentaly was the 0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:23.040 result of US deportation policy in the nineties. You know, 0:36:23.120 --> 0:36:25.720 corrupt regimes that the US had in some form another 0:36:25.760 --> 0:36:28.440 help prop up, and that we're running they their countries 0:36:28.440 --> 0:36:30.520 into the ground. And so you had kind of all 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:33.360 of these things happening. And what the through line is 0:36:33.520 --> 0:36:36.120 in all of it is the asylum system at the 0:36:36.120 --> 0:36:39.400 southern border, which is a fraction of what the United 0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:43.520 States immigration system is. All asylum is is a mechanism 0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:46.240 by which people showing up at the southern border seeking 0:36:46.280 --> 0:36:49.120 protection you are allowed to gain entry into the country. 0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:52.680 The problem is that the immigration debate in Washington has 0:36:52.719 --> 0:36:55.800 been stuck for so long, I mean for decades in fact, 0:36:56.000 --> 0:36:59.160 that the immigration system hasn't been updated in any sense 0:36:59.440 --> 0:37:02.279 really since nineteen ninety and so you know, you have 0:37:02.480 --> 0:37:05.640 labor shortages all across the country, you have visas that 0:37:05.680 --> 0:37:08.320 have been capped, you know, visas to reunite with family, 0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:11.879 temporary work visas, all of these things that should facilitate 0:37:11.960 --> 0:37:14.920 people's legal entry into the United States and would make 0:37:14.920 --> 0:37:18.640 this all orderly and more manageable. These have been channels 0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:21.319 that have been blocked because of inaction in Congress, and 0:37:21.360 --> 0:37:24.400 so what's happened increasingly is the pressure point for the 0:37:24.520 --> 0:37:28.000 whole drama has been the border, because people who otherwise 0:37:28.040 --> 0:37:31.399 would have legitimate and good reason to come to the US, 0:37:31.560 --> 0:37:34.840 either seeking protection or opportunity, have no choice but to 0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:36.880 show up at the southern border and apply through the 0:37:36.880 --> 0:37:40.200 asylum system, which is badly backlogged. There are millions of 0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:43.239 cases in a backlog. It takes years before someone's case 0:37:43.320 --> 0:37:46.760 is actually heard, and the worse that system fares the better, 0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:48.879 the more of an incentive it provides to people who 0:37:48.920 --> 0:37:51.120 are desperate to come and present themselves at the border 0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:54.000 because the government is overwhelmed is in many cases letting 0:37:54.040 --> 0:37:57.279 people in on the idea that in several years they'll 0:37:57.320 --> 0:38:00.520 eventually have their case be adjudicated. But that's years down 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:00.960 the line. 0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:03.120 Last week I read someone who wrote a really good 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:06.000 piece for the Washington Post about the border, who was 0:38:06.080 --> 0:38:10.239 bilin Gal. Really long piece and she talked about what 0:38:10.280 --> 0:38:13.560 the fundamental problems on the on the border were, and 0:38:13.640 --> 0:38:16.600 she said that ultimately it came down to the fact 0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:19.560 that you know, there's been no legislation for twenty years, 0:38:19.600 --> 0:38:22.880 no legislation, no money, so of course you know you 0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:25.560 have no path, so the only way to come is 0:38:25.800 --> 0:38:29.480 to use this broken asylum system. So it does seem 0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:33.200 to me to be kind of shocking that you know, 0:38:33.239 --> 0:38:35.520 you don't have the judges right, the reason why this 0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:37.359 takes so long. You don't have the judges to look 0:38:37.400 --> 0:38:41.360 at these cases. It's just a money and a legislation problem. 0:38:41.440 --> 0:38:42.640 By and large, I agree completely. 0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:45.000 I would say there are kind of two rough ways 0:38:45.280 --> 0:38:47.920 I've come to understand just the gridlock on it. The 0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:52.160 first is, without question, if the US government could devote 0:38:52.160 --> 0:38:54.759 more resources to the border in the form of more 0:38:54.800 --> 0:38:58.560 immigration judges, more asylum officers, you know, more agents with 0:38:58.680 --> 0:39:01.640 customs and border protection to process people who are arriving, 0:39:01.800 --> 0:39:04.640 you know, facilities that allow space in which to process 0:39:04.680 --> 0:39:08.040 people as they arrived. That it would definitely reduce the 0:39:08.080 --> 0:39:10.320 pressure at the border. But and this is the second 0:39:10.320 --> 0:39:12.480 thing that wouldn't be enough on its own. I mean, 0:39:12.520 --> 0:39:15.200 basically what we're seeing now, and this gets to something 0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:18.759 you've also said, because the overall immigration system hasn't moved 0:39:18.800 --> 0:39:22.880 an inch in decades, there's no way for people to 0:39:22.920 --> 0:39:25.440 come to the United States legally, even though there's all 0:39:25.520 --> 0:39:28.400 kinds of good reasons to admit them legally. And so, 0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:32.760 you know, the asylum system was never meant to address 0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:35.879 the kind of scale of people arriving that we're seeing 0:39:35.960 --> 0:39:38.040 now and honestly we were seeing ten years ago. But 0:39:38.239 --> 0:39:41.840 because nothing else changes, that's the only aspect of the 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:44.680 system that kind of gets worked and stressed to this degree. 0:39:44.800 --> 0:39:48.560 There's no pass turns out, ignoring something doesn't make it 0:39:48.640 --> 0:39:49.800 better exactly. 0:39:49.880 --> 0:39:52.399 And you know, it's funny what the Biden administration has done, 0:39:52.440 --> 0:39:54.360 and we can talk about it. I mean, the Biden administration, 0:39:54.440 --> 0:39:56.560 it's been a mixed bag on immigration stuff. But one 0:39:56.600 --> 0:39:59.759 thing that's interesting that they've done, which kind of reflects 0:39:59.800 --> 0:40:03.479 just the general stalemate in Washington, is they've acknowledged that, look, 0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:06.520 because there are no pathways, we need rather than to 0:40:06.640 --> 0:40:09.280 just process everyone in the worst place possible at the border, 0:40:09.520 --> 0:40:12.520 we need to give people a chance to begin to 0:40:13.000 --> 0:40:16.239 you know, file claims and papers with US before they 0:40:16.280 --> 0:40:18.520 reach the border, and we can then parole them in 0:40:18.640 --> 0:40:21.359 that's the authority that the president has to basically give 0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:24.479 people legal cover to enter the country, and they've done 0:40:24.480 --> 0:40:27.799 that for populations that we've seen a real rise in 0:40:27.880 --> 0:40:33.280 immigration from so Venezuelans, Haitians, Cubans, Nicaraguans, and they created 0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:36.279 a program, a parole program where thirty thousand people from 0:40:36.280 --> 0:40:39.480 these countries can enter the country legally each month, and 0:40:39.680 --> 0:40:41.759 one of the consequences of that was that there was 0:40:41.760 --> 0:40:45.319 a ninety percent drop in those populations showing up at 0:40:45.360 --> 0:40:47.640 the southern border, which is to say, you know, if 0:40:47.680 --> 0:40:50.680 you create legal pathways, people will avail themselves of them. 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:53.520 The problem is that the people now who have come 0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:56.080 into the United States through these parole programs don't have 0:40:56.120 --> 0:40:59.440 a path to legal status either because the same forces 0:40:59.440 --> 0:41:02.399 of gridlock or at play when it comes to you know, 0:41:02.440 --> 0:41:05.480 they're eventually getting legalized. So basically, the Biden administration is 0:41:05.480 --> 0:41:08.399 in a bind because the only entity that can open 0:41:08.480 --> 0:41:11.000 up legal pathways in a meaningful way, in a kind 0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:13.480 of thorough going way as Congress. But Congress is a 0:41:13.520 --> 0:41:15.920 dead zone. And so you're kind of in this You're 0:41:15.960 --> 0:41:18.200 you're sort of in this catch twenty two situation if 0:41:18.239 --> 0:41:20.759 you're the administration, where you want to make it more 0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:23.040 orderly at the border and again, we can talk about it. 0:41:23.080 --> 0:41:24.840 There's a lot there, but you want to make it 0:41:24.880 --> 0:41:27.319 more orderly at the border by allowing people to come 0:41:27.360 --> 0:41:30.359 in a more kind of ordered, lawful way. But then 0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:32.839 they're in, and now what happens They have a sort 0:41:32.840 --> 0:41:35.520 of temporary legal standing for you know, two years, but 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:38.759 what happens after that. That's a big question, right, And 0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:41.080 that is a big question. This gets my sort of 0:41:41.160 --> 0:41:45.000 next question, which is Republicans. This is why I love 0:41:45.239 --> 0:41:48.280 Trump so much, and I love I mean Jesus fucking Christ. 0:41:48.520 --> 0:41:50.680 So Trump was like, they don't need a border bill 0:41:50.800 --> 0:41:52.719 because obviously you didn't want a border bill because he 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:54.799 wants a border to be bad. But there are a 0:41:54.800 --> 0:41:56.880 lot of Trump people are like, Biden can do this 0:41:56.960 --> 0:41:59.640 with an executive order, she doesn't need legislation. 0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:03.000 Explain to us why that is just not true. 0:42:03.360 --> 0:42:05.719 I mean, honestly, and I obviously spend a lot of 0:42:05.719 --> 0:42:06.920 time thinking about this stuff. 0:42:07.040 --> 0:42:08.920 I don't even really know what they mean. It's when 0:42:08.960 --> 0:42:09.600 they say that. 0:42:11.080 --> 0:42:15.000 They're objecting already to the idea that the president is 0:42:15.040 --> 0:42:18.360 taking a unilateral action in the form of this parole program. 0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:20.799 So you know, they want him with a kind of 0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:23.799 you know, sweep of the pen to shut the border down, 0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:26.920 which again that's also a nonsensical claim. The border cannot 0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:29.360 just be shut down. It doesn't work like that. So 0:42:29.480 --> 0:42:32.200 what they essentially mean when they engage in that bit 0:42:32.239 --> 0:42:36.880 of ridiculous hyperbole is for the president to suspend asylum 0:42:36.920 --> 0:42:41.880 process thing. But again, the idea that not doing anything 0:42:42.200 --> 0:42:44.920 or the President simply bowing to be tough and to 0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:47.640 just kind of, like in a symbolic gesture, say well, 0:42:47.719 --> 0:42:51.400 that's it, We're closed, which is what Congressional Republicans literally 0:42:51.400 --> 0:42:53.880 say the president should do. They say he should simply 0:42:54.160 --> 0:42:56.160 just clear the air once and for all and explain 0:42:56.239 --> 0:42:58.160 to people that quote unquote we're closed. I mean, I've 0:42:58.160 --> 0:42:59.960 had Republican congress members tell me this. 0:43:00.239 --> 0:43:02.359 I love that members of Congress have told you that. 0:43:02.680 --> 0:43:05.480 Yeah, is weighing in on this. 0:43:05.880 --> 0:43:06.520 Yeah. Right. 0:43:06.560 --> 0:43:10.080 There's not any one thing the president can do to 0:43:10.760 --> 0:43:13.400 turn this around. And the thing is that he's trying 0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:17.280 to do which are extremely kind of narrow and technical, 0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:21.000 but like would help to some degree, for instance, getting 0:43:21.000 --> 0:43:23.799 more resources to the border just to reduce the sort 0:43:23.800 --> 0:43:26.200 of temperature of what's going on there. The Republicans are 0:43:26.200 --> 0:43:29.040 blocking and so it's a perfect circle. It's a perfect 0:43:29.040 --> 0:43:31.759 circle for them. They're not saying really anything in good 0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:34.000 faith here about what the president should or shouldn't be doing. 0:43:34.280 --> 0:43:36.160 Right. But I mean, I want to pull back for 0:43:36.160 --> 0:43:38.920 a second because this is my obsession when it comes 0:43:38.960 --> 0:43:41.800 to immigration, and I feel like we don't talk about 0:43:41.800 --> 0:43:45.879 this because I guess whatever, But we actually need immigrants. 0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:48.239 You have a tight labor market, you have a population 0:43:48.400 --> 0:43:51.200 that is not keeping up with the numbers. I mean, 0:43:51.280 --> 0:43:54.200 we're going to keep people out because that works so 0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:57.520 well for Japan. I mean, what's the thinking here. 0:43:57.760 --> 0:43:59.680 I mean, I don't think that they're thinking here it's 0:43:59.719 --> 0:44:02.279 mine ending, honestly. I mean, there's you know, this isn't 0:44:02.360 --> 0:44:05.920 just a kind of aggressive call for more humanity. You know, 0:44:06.040 --> 0:44:08.320 this is like a bottom line, it's. 0:44:08.200 --> 0:44:12.040 A capitalist call for more workers. I mean exactly. So 0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:13.239 that's what I don't guess. 0:44:13.320 --> 0:44:14.920 Yeah, I mean I think, you know, I think it's 0:44:14.960 --> 0:44:16.279 kind of I mean, this is going to sound sort 0:44:16.280 --> 0:44:18.960 of reductive and obvious, but it's sort of the baseline 0:44:19.080 --> 0:44:21.719 reality of what we see in Washington, which is just 0:44:21.800 --> 0:44:25.120 the simplest politics here of getting re elected and people, 0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:28.000 you know, they're playing off of resentments and confusions and 0:44:28.040 --> 0:44:31.400 fears that people in the electorate have, and that's the 0:44:31.520 --> 0:44:33.040 kind of be all and end all of how they're 0:44:33.040 --> 0:44:35.239 gaming this issue out. I mean, it's incredible to see 0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:39.399 there are Republican governors do state and local officials who 0:44:39.400 --> 0:44:42.880 are very plainly saying, look, we have labor shortages. 0:44:43.040 --> 0:44:43.880 We need workers. 0:44:44.160 --> 0:44:46.080 I mean, what we're seeing right now this is in 0:44:46.360 --> 0:44:49.120 primarily in blue states, but it's incredibly dramatic, and it 0:44:49.239 --> 0:44:51.400 kind of just shows that sort of the tragedy and 0:44:51.400 --> 0:44:54.719 senselessness of what we're experiencing. The governor of Texas has 0:44:54.719 --> 0:44:57.400 been busting all of these migrants to blue cities and 0:44:57.440 --> 0:44:59.880 blue states and doing it deliberately to so chaos with 0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:03.000 coordinating with state and local authorities. So large numbers of 0:45:03.040 --> 0:45:06.880 people are showing up in cities like you know, Denver, Chicago, Washington, 0:45:06.880 --> 0:45:08.879 New York. And I was recently speaking to the mayor 0:45:08.920 --> 0:45:11.720 of Denver who said to me, you know, every day 0:45:12.080 --> 0:45:15.560 we're getting calls from employers all across the city saying, look, 0:45:15.600 --> 0:45:17.719 we have so many jobs we need to fill. There 0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:20.479 are thousands of people who are arriving here who want 0:45:20.520 --> 0:45:22.719 to work, Please help us. What are we missing. How 0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:23.760 do we connect these dots? 0:45:23.800 --> 0:45:26.040 And you can't hire them legally because there's no. 0:45:26.080 --> 0:45:29.480 Pass exactly, they don't have work authorization, and there are 0:45:29.520 --> 0:45:31.640 kind of different bureaucratic ways of doing that, but it's, 0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:34.200 you know, the gears of government. Government kind of grind 0:45:34.239 --> 0:45:38.040 slowly in that regard. And obviously the numbers are overwhelming 0:45:38.080 --> 0:45:41.160 cities because the governor busting them to these cities is 0:45:41.200 --> 0:45:43.719 trying to overwhelm them. So it's just you're kind of 0:45:43.760 --> 0:45:48.480 in this bizarre situation where like this solution is crying out. 0:45:48.960 --> 0:45:51.400 No one's even got really a question about what some 0:45:51.480 --> 0:45:54.160 of the needs are. I mean, obviously, in Washington on 0:45:54.320 --> 0:45:57.520 comprehensive immigration reform, that's just a morass. But in terms 0:45:57.560 --> 0:46:00.280 of some of these more straightforward things like meeting labor needs, 0:46:00.440 --> 0:46:03.840 you'd think temporary work visas. There's not controversy on that. 0:46:03.920 --> 0:46:06.880 And if you talk to conservatives their game, I mean, 0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:09.040 if you talk to them away from the kind of 0:46:09.120 --> 0:46:12.279 combat zone of Washington, they'll say, yeah, of course, we 0:46:12.400 --> 0:46:14.200 definitely need more temporary worker visas. 0:46:14.280 --> 0:46:16.680 This is what the Co Brothers want. I mean, these 0:46:16.719 --> 0:46:20.319 guys are they're not humanitarians. The Co Brothers actually there's 0:46:20.360 --> 0:46:23.120 only one brother. Now. One of the things that I'm 0:46:23.160 --> 0:46:27.680 struck by is actually, in these red states, you see 0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:32.960 governors changing child labor laws and lowering the fines for 0:46:33.080 --> 0:46:36.920 companies because they know that children are working in these factories. 0:46:36.920 --> 0:46:39.520 And we had Hannah Aronson from the New York Times 0:46:39.520 --> 0:46:43.359 on to talk about that, and she said, they know 0:46:43.880 --> 0:46:46.960 they have children working in these factories, and that's why 0:46:47.000 --> 0:46:49.879 they're trying to lower the fines. And these children are 0:46:50.480 --> 0:46:55.120 spending all night working in factories, falling into Cheeto dusters, 0:46:55.520 --> 0:46:59.000 you know, breaking their arms, being paralyzed, trying to go 0:46:59.040 --> 0:47:01.200 to school the next day. I mean, we are in 0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:04.040 the middle of like Upton Sinclair Land. 0:47:04.920 --> 0:47:06.360 You know, when you pan out and look at the 0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:09.160 broader history too, I mean that's all obviously, it's horrific, 0:47:09.320 --> 0:47:11.920 and it's sort of in plain sight now thanks to 0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:14.040 Hannah Driver's recording and others. You know, when you pan 0:47:14.080 --> 0:47:16.120 out too, though, and look at the history that there's 0:47:16.160 --> 0:47:18.759 always been that tension, particularly on the Republican side. I 0:47:18.800 --> 0:47:21.240 mean both parties, look have had to have a very 0:47:21.600 --> 0:47:24.120 vexed history of dealing with immigration policy, to be clear, 0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:25.840 but on the Republican side, one of the kind of 0:47:25.840 --> 0:47:29.480 interesting strains, kind of the intra family tension. There is, 0:47:29.719 --> 0:47:31.080 you know, on the one hand, a kind of more 0:47:31.120 --> 0:47:34.360 classic nativist populist sentiment which is sort of always sloshed 0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:36.520 around the party. But then you also have more of 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:39.040 the chamber of commerce of you which is look, I mean, 0:47:39.040 --> 0:47:41.840 this is what you're describing. There's a kind of capitalist. 0:47:41.440 --> 0:47:42.320 Bottom line here. 0:47:42.440 --> 0:47:46.359 Why would we block people from working in industries where 0:47:46.360 --> 0:47:49.440 there are needs? But then within that community on the 0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:54.000 on the right, is some disagreement about, you know, the 0:47:54.040 --> 0:47:57.120 degree to which people can continue to work in an 0:47:57.200 --> 0:48:02.319 undocumented fashion. Obviously it's easier, more profitable for big companies 0:48:02.440 --> 0:48:04.040 to not have to pay people, to not give them 0:48:04.080 --> 0:48:07.080 labor protections. That's a very scary fact, and that's been 0:48:07.120 --> 0:48:11.200 a fact for decades. The intractability of reform on this 0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:14.239 issue has also turned into a profit bottom line for 0:48:14.280 --> 0:48:17.479 companies and for Republican politicians who defend them. 0:48:17.640 --> 0:48:20.680 Yeah, I'm hoping you could sort of give me a 0:48:20.719 --> 0:48:23.560 little something to make me not so depressed. 0:48:23.800 --> 0:48:26.040 So I spent years working on this book, and the 0:48:26.120 --> 0:48:28.080 deeper you get into it, you know, this is a 0:48:28.080 --> 0:48:30.160 book about the history of the United States and Central 0:48:30.200 --> 0:48:35.080 America and how American foreign policy and how American politics 0:48:35.400 --> 0:48:38.960 have contributed to all the sorts of strife in the 0:48:39.000 --> 0:48:41.280 region that leads to mass migration. And so the book 0:48:41.320 --> 0:48:43.920 sort of narrates the interconnectedness of the US and the 0:48:43.920 --> 0:48:46.239 wider region, but also the kind of infinite loop of 0:48:46.280 --> 0:48:48.680 it that the US does things that generate more migration, 0:48:48.719 --> 0:48:51.160 that leads the US to do more hasty things, and 0:48:51.239 --> 0:48:53.280 on and on and on. And I have to say though, 0:48:53.440 --> 0:48:55.880 that the silver lining and doing this reporting for me 0:48:56.160 --> 0:48:59.239 because obviously, on the policy and politics level it's just 0:49:00.000 --> 0:49:02.560 donningly upsetting, and on the human level, there's just so 0:49:02.760 --> 0:49:05.960 much suffering, so much needless gratuitous suffering. 0:49:06.080 --> 0:49:06.880 I have to say that. 0:49:06.960 --> 0:49:08.600 And this is going to end up sounding really corny, 0:49:08.640 --> 0:49:11.080 I'm sorry, but you know, writing about people who have 0:49:11.120 --> 0:49:13.799 been kind of buffeted by these forces of history that 0:49:13.840 --> 0:49:16.560 are just so vast that no single person could keep 0:49:16.600 --> 0:49:19.440 them at bay, who nevertheless kind of refused to be 0:49:19.600 --> 0:49:23.960 defined by those circumstances that honestly made me, I mean, 0:49:24.000 --> 0:49:26.320 even just as a journalist. And again again I realized 0:49:26.360 --> 0:49:28.400 that this sounds sort of pie in the sky, but no, no, 0:49:28.560 --> 0:49:31.200 I'll take it. Yeah, I mean it made me feel like, Okay, 0:49:31.480 --> 0:49:34.600 you know, there's there's more of a need than ever 0:49:34.800 --> 0:49:38.000 to fight on, to tell these stories, to try to 0:49:38.040 --> 0:49:40.600 get to the human dimension of this because the politics 0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:44.320 are so stupid, but the people are so endlessly interesting 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:47.160 and full of surprises, and that mismatch on the one 0:49:47.160 --> 0:49:49.799 hand is tragic and upsetting and on the other does 0:49:49.880 --> 0:49:50.880 kind of give you hope. 0:49:50.960 --> 0:49:54.880 I completely agree. And as much as I feel like 0:49:55.000 --> 0:49:58.799 it's it's so crushing and sad, and the stuff we 0:49:58.960 --> 0:50:02.440 hear is just every day, it's just horrendous, I do 0:50:02.520 --> 0:50:06.080 feel very much that like we beat on into the sea. 0:50:06.160 --> 0:50:10.080 That's a quote from Butcher to a So we beat on, 0:50:10.120 --> 0:50:13.799 So we beat on. Yeah, but as I butchered this 0:50:14.320 --> 0:50:17.440 show quote. No, it's gonna talk, but it is really true. 0:50:17.560 --> 0:50:19.640 Thank you so much, Jonathan. I hope you'll come back. 0:50:19.760 --> 0:50:20.520 Oh, I would love it. 0:50:20.520 --> 0:50:21.400 Thanks for having me. 0:50:22.800 --> 0:50:30.400 A moment ou Rick Wilson. Yes, it's time for our 0:50:30.480 --> 0:50:33.560 one segment, What is your moment of hackery? 0:50:33.760 --> 0:50:36.080 The one segment of my moment of fuckery this week 0:50:37.160 --> 0:50:41.520 is the inevitable moment of fuckery that is the entire 0:50:41.600 --> 0:50:45.759 Republican Party. Alexi Navolney has been murdered and they are 0:50:45.840 --> 0:50:49.520 already like, well, you know, it doesn't mean Putin's a 0:50:49.560 --> 0:50:53.600 bad guy, per se. He can't lose. He's at the 0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:54.520 top of his game. 0:50:54.920 --> 0:50:55.240 Y'all. 0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:58.040 If you're in the Republican Party and you're still kissing 0:50:58.120 --> 0:51:01.279 Vladimir Putin's ass and you're stra, say, do you want 0:51:01.280 --> 0:51:03.240 me to start in the front of the back this guy? 0:51:03.560 --> 0:51:10.239 Oh Jesus christ Rick, you're offending my genteel sensibilities. All right, 0:51:10.360 --> 0:51:12.520 go on. I mean, I don't know that we need a. 0:51:12.600 --> 0:51:18.520 Full but look, the moment of fuckery is at this 0:51:18.880 --> 0:51:25.400 goddamn party. For all of its other wild sins, excesses, mistakes, errors, 0:51:26.160 --> 0:51:30.520 violations of decency, dignity, intellect, and human rights. The fact 0:51:30.640 --> 0:51:35.040 that after Vladimir Putin has straight out murdered somebody and 0:51:35.080 --> 0:51:36.840 they're still kissing his ass, but at least they have 0:51:36.880 --> 0:51:38.280 nice subway stations, right. 0:51:38.160 --> 0:51:41.920 Tucker, Yeah, Tucker Carlson goes grocery shopping. I do have 0:51:42.000 --> 0:51:44.040 the sense that he does not spend a lot of 0:51:44.080 --> 0:51:46.920 time grocery shopping. After watching that video. 0:51:46.960 --> 0:51:49.800 I have the sense that he sends his second second 0:51:50.040 --> 0:51:55.240 deputy under kitchen maid scullery made to the shopping. 0:51:55.080 --> 0:51:59.000 Is chief of staffs chief of staff. My moment of 0:51:59.040 --> 0:52:02.240 fuckery is is, first of all, I can't tell if 0:52:02.440 --> 0:52:05.359 I'm like, if I'm the problem it's me, or if 0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:08.600 everyone else is a problem. So it's probably me, But 0:52:09.200 --> 0:52:11.920 I think I might be the problem here. But I 0:52:11.960 --> 0:52:14.680 feel like my moment of fuckery is that I feel 0:52:14.719 --> 0:52:18.680 like everyone is losing their minds over the wrong presidential candidate. 0:52:18.960 --> 0:52:19.960 Yes, yes it is. 0:52:20.200 --> 0:52:24.520 So if you're a good natured liberal, stop it, stop it. 0:52:24.680 --> 0:52:28.440 And if you're a bad natured conservative, you do whatever 0:52:28.440 --> 0:52:30.799 you want. I don't care. You got Donald Trump. Good luck. 0:52:30.920 --> 0:52:34.040 My other micro moment of fuckery is that the star 0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:37.560 witness in all of the bullshit about Hunter Biden turns 0:52:37.560 --> 0:52:41.040 out to be a line liar who lies and has 0:52:41.160 --> 0:52:43.880 now been arrested by the federal government because he's a 0:52:44.000 --> 0:52:45.680 lying liar who lied. 0:52:45.760 --> 0:52:48.440 Right, And we're talking about Merrit fucking Garland, So like 0:52:48.719 --> 0:52:52.640 this is the slowest of slow rolling DJs ever, So 0:52:52.760 --> 0:52:55.799 like this guy must have done so much criming for 0:52:55.920 --> 0:52:59.680 him to even get indited, like right, because this is merit. 0:52:59.719 --> 0:53:01.680 I don't want to put my finger on the scale. 0:53:01.800 --> 0:53:05.759 I just let people, wait, let James Cally release that 0:53:05.840 --> 0:53:08.960 fucking latter and that motherfucker by the way. As we 0:53:09.000 --> 0:53:10.719 go on with this moment of fuck, I just feel 0:53:10.719 --> 0:53:12.879 like Jesse's going to cut this but don't ever buy 0:53:12.960 --> 0:53:15.640 James Comy's books, like that fucking guy lost the election 0:53:15.719 --> 0:53:16.480 for Hillary Quinton. 0:53:16.640 --> 0:53:21.640 Thank you will, folks, have a great day. 0:53:22.480 --> 0:53:24.000 Jesse's like, I hate both of them. 0:53:24.440 --> 0:53:26.960 He's fuck up both of you right now. 0:53:27.200 --> 0:53:29.600 Jesse's like, I can't tell which one I hate more. 0:53:30.640 --> 0:53:31.040 Stop. 0:53:33.000 --> 0:53:36.360 That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 0:53:36.400 --> 0:53:39.640 every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds 0:53:39.640 --> 0:53:42.880 in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you 0:53:43.000 --> 0:53:45.680 enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend 0:53:45.719 --> 0:53:49.280 and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.