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Hello, They're welcome to tech Stuff. 21 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 1: My name is Chris Poulette and I am an editor 22 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: at How Stuff Works, sitting across from me, debatedbly Is, 23 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: as always a senior writer Jonathan st I had the 24 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: story bit by bit from various people, and as generally 25 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: happens in such cases, each time it was a different story. 26 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: So today we're going to have a goofy little debate 27 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: about open systems versus closed systems. We just decided that 28 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: we're going to experiment with this. We've never done one 29 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: of these before, and in fact, we decided on it 30 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: about thirty seconds before we started recording, and so to 31 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 1: determine who would represent which side, we did the most 32 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: scientific thing we could think of. We flipped a coin. 33 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: It's the quarter United States quarter for those of you 34 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: who think that matters. Uh. And it turns out that 35 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: mint did it come from? Um you know what? I 36 00:01:58,200 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: put it back in my pocket, So I don't know. 37 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: But but Mr Chris rigged. Mr Chris Philette will be 38 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: representing the open system side and I shall be representing 39 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: the closed system side. So I think that proves it 40 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: wasn't rigged. Look at the kind of phone I'm using. 41 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: So anyway, Uh, I think I think in order to 42 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: really understand what we're talking about. First, we have to 43 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: establish what we mean by an open versus a closed system. 44 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: So let me tell you what a closed system is. 45 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: Closed system is quality people. That's what a closed system is. 46 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: Closed system is where you create a an infrastructure, uh 47 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: an ecosystem, if you will, where you control as many 48 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: of the factors as you possibly can, and you don't 49 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: allow outside influences to change your system. So an example 50 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: of a company that takes the closed system approach is Apple. 51 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: That's not to say that Apple only does the closed 52 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: off approach. If it did, then you would never be 53 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: able to run any other kind of software or app 54 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: on Apple products. You would only be able to run 55 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: Apple created stuff. But it's an example of a system 56 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: because it's more closed than it is open. And there 57 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,119 Speaker 1: are various reasons for doing this, but we'll get into 58 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: that in the debate. But that that's kind of what 59 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: how I define a closed system. It's one where you're 60 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: trying to control as much as possible, and it's all 61 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: coming from or as much of it as possible is 62 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: coming from a single source, and the outside stuff is 63 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: shut away. Yes, And and I think as we talk 64 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: about this, our listeners will realize that there are few 65 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: absolutes in this discussion. Very true. Okay, so open source 66 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: information wants to be free, and the ore are computing 67 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: devices should too. It's the only way to be, uh, 68 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: you know, free to be you and me? Um okay 69 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: yea hippy. No, an open system is is something that 70 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: is not made for corporate gain. It is out there 71 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: for the public to use. Anybody who wants to make 72 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: a contribution to it. Can people can use it, uh 73 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: if they want to. And there it's it's there as 74 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: offered as a public service. Um. And is therefore the 75 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: people of the people, by the people, and you closed 76 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: system punks should leave us alone because this is the 77 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 1: way it really should be and trying to make a 78 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: buck off that is wrong. Yeah. So if you think 79 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: of it, uh, an open system is sort of democratic 80 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: and that anyone can really contribute to it and and 81 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: change it. And also we should point out before we 82 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 1: really get into this debate, uh, that it is possible 83 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: to have a a product probably that's for sale, either 84 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: that's an open system or a closed system. Open and 85 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: closed does not mean that one is free and one 86 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: is is you charge for Yeah, I was I I did. Yeah, 87 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: that's a good point. I should have pointed out that 88 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: sort of the quote unquote ideal version when when a 89 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: lot of people talk about open source, right, if you're 90 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 1: going the ultimate open source, like the utopian version of 91 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: open source, when you're talking about that's cool, that's cool, Yeah, 92 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: because there there really is a spectrum here. But we're 93 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: gonna try and be like hardcore. So mal, let me 94 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: explain why I think that closed systems are superior to 95 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: open systems. So with a closed system and with with 96 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: with with everything coming from a single source. So in 97 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: this case, let's say it's a company. A company is 98 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: creating a product that is closed off, no other outside 99 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: influence can can come into this product. It means that 100 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: there's an expectation of quality control that you don't have 101 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: with open systems. You actually can test everything, make sure 102 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: everything works properly on the hardware. So if we're talking 103 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: about a computer, we know that the software will work 104 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: on the computer because the software and hardware have been 105 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: developed together from the ground up. It means that you 106 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about some weird incompatibility issue when 107 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 1: you try and install a program onto this device, because 108 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: again everything is coming from the same source and was 109 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: made to work together. Now this can go beyond just 110 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: a computer. Let's say that you have a computer and 111 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: a smartphone and a tablet and they're all part of 112 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: the same closed system. It means that you can expect 113 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: a fairly uniform experience across these three platforms, and maybe 114 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: even be able to port your experience from one to 115 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: the other. And what I mean by that is, let's 116 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: say I'm watching a movie on my smartphone and then 117 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: I decide, you know what, I really want to look 118 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: at this on a bigger screen, and I tap it 119 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: over to my tablet, and the tablet starts playing the 120 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,119 Speaker 1: movie exactly where I left off, and it all works 121 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: seamlessly because it's all running on the same platform that's 122 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,799 Speaker 1: meant to work together. That is one of the big 123 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 1: benefits of a closed system is that you have a 124 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: uniformity in the experience and an expectation of things are 125 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: just gonna work because it was all built together and 126 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 1: meant to work together. Why are you taking away my choice? 127 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: If I want to have a different video card than 128 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: the one you stuck in my computer, I want to 129 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: be able to remove it and stick a different one 130 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: in there, you know what. And it's and it's frustrating 131 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: because any time I want to change a component on 132 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: my computer or I want something a little different, UH, 133 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, I have to deal with all the complications 134 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: that you're closed off. UH system is is taking away 135 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: And the problem is that, UH, you're also restricting competition 136 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: because in your closed system, there's only one way to 137 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: go for a tablet, and there's one way to go 138 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: for an MP three player, and there's one way to 139 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: go for a smartphone. There's one way to go for 140 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: a computer. And I want I want choice. I want 141 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: to be able to customize my my computing experience. I 142 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: want to be able to buy something cheaper because competition 143 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: is driving down the cost of these products. So I 144 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: could go to your store and buy the one computer 145 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: you've got, or I could go to this store over 146 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: here and buy fifty different computers, and all of them 147 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: are cheaper than yours, and some of them even outperform yours. Well, 148 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: So what do you say to that? Here's what I 149 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: say to that. Sure, it might be cheaper, and even 150 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: if you have a device, a particular individual device that 151 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: performs better than one of my particular individual devices. If 152 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: you are trying to have an experience that spans multiple devices, 153 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: then you're going to start encountering things where the compatibility 154 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: issues come into play, and you may have things like 155 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: software crashes because it's not designed to work together seamlessly 156 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: like a closed system is. So you might spend less 157 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: money initially when you first purchase your vast array of 158 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: choice here and you've got let you know, your ultimate 159 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: price tag is lower than you would if you have 160 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: bought everything from my superior closed system store. But the 161 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: amount of frustration you're going to have as that experience 162 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: is unsatisfactory because the various pieces are not playing together 163 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: properly is far going to outweigh the miniscule additional investment 164 00:08:58,040 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: you would have to make if you had purchased it 165 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: all from me in the first place. And yeah, you're 166 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: one individual device might behave better or perform better than 167 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: why one individual device, but collectively, the experience is much 168 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: more satisfying on my end than it is on yours, 169 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: because it's yours is piecemeal, and also my system is 170 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: designed to just work. Your system is designed to make 171 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: me have to have a computer science degree if I 172 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: want to figure out how to do the same thing 173 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: on one device as I'm doing on another device. Ha superior, 174 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: You say, yes, I don't think that word means what 175 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: you think. Well, here, let me put it to you 176 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: another way. Let's let's let's take a look at the 177 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: way a closed system versus an open system attacks the 178 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: problem of malware, because they have very different approaches. Right, So, 179 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: if we're talking about the perfect closed system, ideally there's 180 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: no malware because nothing from outside is being introduced into 181 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: the system unless there's some you know, disgruntled employee that 182 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: I bullied out of out of their sanity. We don't 183 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: have to worry about malware entering into the closed system 184 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: because everything is made by this one entity and it's 185 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: all made to work together, so you don't have to 186 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: worry about some sort of virus perpetuating itself through your system. 187 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: Now that's different from the way open systems attack malware. Well, 188 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: see the open systems, you could have other people, multiple 189 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: people working on solutions to things like vulnerabilities in the 190 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: operating system, and people who are working on uh anti 191 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: malware software for your system. So the thing is, that's 192 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: a small price to pay for the ability to hack 193 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: into the system and change whatever you want to change 194 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: about the system. If you want to, uh, get into 195 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: the operating system and see what makes it tick and 196 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: learn more about what what programs and what functions are 197 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: going on in the background. For example, you could be 198 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: monitoring everything I do, but if you're in your closed system, 199 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: I can't get into the background to see that. Then 200 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: you know you could be doing this all without my knowledge. 201 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: Um So with an open system, I I'm free to 202 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: install any software I want to or remove any software 203 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: I want to from my device. And I could even 204 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: write my own because you know it's open, and uh, 205 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: it gives me the opportunity to to hack in and 206 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: play with it and make it my own instead of 207 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: make it what your vision is. Because what if your 208 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: closed vision, you're closed off, walled off, little garden isn't 209 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: what I think of as being the best experience for me, 210 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: because hey, everybody's an individual, right Well. First of all, 211 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: we know what you want, even when you don't see 212 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: That's the thing is, we know what you want. You 213 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: don't know what you want, but we know what you want. 214 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: You think you know what you want, but until you've 215 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: actually bought into our our closed system, you really haven't 216 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: haven't experienced it, And we're going to go back into 217 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: the quality issue. Let's talk about the quality of and 218 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about computing systems here. Let's talk about the 219 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: quality of the programs that you're running on your system. Again, 220 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: with the closed system approach, those programs have been built 221 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: for a very specific set of hardware, which does not 222 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: change from what you know that if I buy my 223 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: computer from this closed system and someone else buys their 224 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: computer from the same closed system, those two computers are 225 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: going to be identical in every meaningful way, So we 226 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: know that the software is going to work equally well 227 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: on my system as it is on their system. Whereas 228 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: if we both just go into a computer store and 229 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 1: we each just buy a computer from various you know, manufacturers, 230 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: there's no guarantee that the same kind of software is 231 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: going to work just as well in my machine as 232 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: it is on their machine, even if the two machines 233 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: are running the same operating system, because we have difficulties 234 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: introduced by things like device drivers and hardware differences. With 235 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: the closed system, you've eliminated that you don't have to 236 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: worry about that so much. So that means that the 237 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: quality of the experience of the software. Put aside the 238 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: quality of the software itself, but the experience of using 239 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: it is going to be less frustrating. Uh the you know, 240 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: you might say that there's a downside with the whole 241 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: choice factor, but at the same time, you don't have 242 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: to worry about it crashing all the time or just 243 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: not behaving the proper way. I think. Sure, sometimes things happen, 244 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: but on a much less frequent basis than on these 245 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: these little open systems out there that that just well, 246 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, they they they just they just are 247 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: like every anything goes well with the potential of with 248 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: with open source software, you have to potential a limitless 249 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,719 Speaker 1: potential of applications that could be run for it. The 250 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: more open you become, the greater the possibilities. Um. You know. 251 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: So you can have your closed system and have things 252 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: that run specifically on that hardware. But you know, programmers 253 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: like their choices too, and they're gonna go where where 254 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: the wealth of soft where it is, and that's when 255 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: you attract more users, and vice versa and versa visa. 256 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: And I disagree with that because users, most users don't 257 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: want to be curators. And if you are a user 258 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: of an open system, you have to be a curator 259 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: because there's so much that you're talking about, so much 260 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: variety and so much choice, that it's overwhelming to the 261 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: average user. You sit down and you see like there's 262 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: it's like walking into a library and you have no 263 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: idea what book you want to read. You just know 264 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: you want to read a book, and you walk into 265 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: an enormous library and you have no idea where to go. 266 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: It's too confusing. Whereas in a closed system, it's been 267 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: curated for you. Your choices are limited, but at the 268 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: same time, you don't have to worry about going through 269 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: eight thousand different word processing programs in order to find 270 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: one that suits your needs. There's really only one choice, 271 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: and if it suits your needs, that's awesome. Jonathan, you ignorance. 272 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: Ha ha oh Saturday night Life. I bet you they 273 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: cut that. Um anyhow, uh well, see, there's one thing 274 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: that that you're leaving out here, the market, because what 275 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: happens here is the market helps people whittle down their choices. 276 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: When you have something the the word processor of choice, 277 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: the one that that more people are using than people understand, 278 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: it's the best seller phenomenon it's like you look at 279 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: the best seller lists and you and you say, you 280 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: know what, these books are very popular. I bet you 281 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: anything that if I if I read it, I'm you know, 282 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: I will at least look at these first because I 283 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: know lots of people like them, and that helps people 284 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: make choices as far as software is concerned, and you know, 285 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: there's always a new programmer coming online to develop new 286 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: software and you can always help be the kingmaker for 287 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: the next generation of software too. But not in the 288 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: closed system where you know your choices are somewhat limited. 289 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm trying to think of a best 290 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: selling open source software example, and it's really hard. Well, 291 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: you know, in a lot of cases, open source software 292 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: can be free or donationware, and a donationware world, people 293 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: pay what they what it's worth to them. And sure 294 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: some people are going to pay a quarter, and there 295 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: are also people who pay a hundred dollars for the 296 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: same piece of software because it means more to them 297 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: and it's important to them to donate to the community. 298 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, not found that out? How did 299 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: how did Minecraft? Just you know, it's it's a thing. Yeah, 300 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: but I still think that the closed system is the 301 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: way to go. It's a sustainable business model. It means 302 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: that you once you develop your your your line of devotees, 303 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: you're good to go. I mean because you you've created 304 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: that expectation of that quality of experience that you deliver 305 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: upon consistently, and by doing that, you know that you know, 306 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: as long as you maintain that level of quality, that 307 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: you will have a customer base moving forward. Whereas with 308 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: this open source roach, I don't see how you're gonna be, 309 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: you know, really making a sustainable business out of that. 310 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: And while the ideals are wonderful and fantastic and and 311 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: and and and happy and all that mess um, I 312 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: just don't see it, you know, perpetuating itself after a 313 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: certain amount. You know, eventually a guy's got to eat well. 314 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: And and that's why I think, uh, that's why I 315 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: think openness is sort of a bell curve. Yeah, because 316 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: the one end you have the clothe the the completely 317 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: closed off system with fewer fewer users, which you know, 318 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 1: we should point out again there's not really that many. 319 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: I can't think of any company that would be that 320 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: I could point to that say absolutely is this like 321 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: even the systems that we think of as closed like 322 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: Apple and Nintendo aren't really that closed. Otherwise no third 323 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: party developer would ever be able to create anything for 324 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: their platforms. Right. And then at the other side, UM, 325 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of somebody who is really completely 326 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: open as far as open source. But that's as close 327 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: as you can get. Yeah. And the thing is, as 328 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: Jonathan pointed out earlier, UM, Lennox is free and it's 329 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: you know, the sources open, which is in the guts 330 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: of the operating system are open for people to use. 331 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: And there are distributions of Linux that are completely free 332 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: for people to use, and there are others that. Uh. 333 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: There is a purchase price because it is tailored two 334 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: specific needs and usually has some support level of support 335 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: built into that. So if you buy the software, then 336 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: you can expect to have someone to call if you've 337 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: got a problem. Yeah. Sometimes it's not the software itself 338 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: that's that's got the price tag. It's the support. Yeah. 339 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: So for example, Buntu is that way you can you 340 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: can get a free version of a Buntu and install 341 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: it on your computer. By the way, the debate part 342 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: of this podcast is over In case you hadn't realized 343 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: that We're now getting into the more informational side. Um. Yeah, 344 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: the the and I think that went really well. The 345 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: but Abuntu, you you can get that for free and 346 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: install that on a machine for free. But if you 347 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: want to have professional level support, then you can pay 348 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: a certain amount of money and then you will have 349 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: access to UM support staff, which could be anything from 350 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: my computer isn't behaving properly, what is the what is 351 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: the source of this problem? How do I fix it too? 352 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 1: I'm running an actual closed network of machines in this 353 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: one business, and I need to know how to set 354 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: this up so that everything is secure that kind of 355 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: it's it's all levels of support. Uh. And and you know, 356 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: there are definitely arguments both for and against the closed 357 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: and open systems, as we were demonstrating earlier. And it's 358 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: not that one system is inherently better or worse than 359 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: the other. They're just different philosophies on how to provide 360 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 1: UM goods and services. Yeah. Really there the arguments we 361 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 1: were making. I think, um, you know, there were good 362 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: arguments on both sides. I think the it works better. 363 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: There are arguments I've heard sort of like the ones 364 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: the debate we just had that we're are more heated 365 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: than that. You thin get the when you're actually thinking 366 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: about both sides and not taking a side, it it 367 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: kind of works better because really there are some benefits 368 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: with with clothes, you do have things that just work, um, 369 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: But with open you do have a lot more choice 370 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,479 Speaker 1: and the ability to tinker more with it. And it's 371 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: sort of really, I think depends on what you're looking for. 372 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: So this is why so many people use Windows because 373 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: it's sort of an open closed system. Windows is Windows 374 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: the sort of the middle ground. Uh, it's it's it 375 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: leans closed. Yeah, it lands closed, but it has a 376 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: lot of flexibility for people to build applications that run 377 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: on Windows. So in that that sense, it's open in 378 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: the in the way that you know, again, third party 379 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: developers create the vast majority of software that runs on 380 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: Windows based PCs. You know, very a small percentage of 381 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: the software that runs on Windows based PCs comes from Microsoft. 382 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: There there's there are very important applications that are on 383 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: a typical Windows based PC that are from Microsoft. But 384 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: you know, if you're like, if you're going to some 385 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: video gamers house and you're looking at his rig and 386 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: or her rig, I should say because you know, I've 387 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: met some lead female video gamers who could wipe the 388 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: floor with me in any game I've shows, which is 389 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: very they're staring at you now as a matter of fact. Yeah, 390 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: well I'll probably end up seeing some of them at 391 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: c E s uh, and they'll again I won't challenge 392 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: them that I already know how I would turn out anyway. 393 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: So you but you go on, you look at the 394 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: software on that person's computer, and you're gonna see that 395 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: there's a ton of stuff on there that never came 396 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: out of Microsoft. Uh. And same, the same sort of 397 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: thing applies to Apple. It's not there. It's not as 398 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: much software as far as just you know, sheer numbers 399 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: as you would find for a Windows based PC. But 400 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: you know, even Apple, which we think of as a 401 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: really like a walled garden or a closed system, depends 402 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: heavily on third party developers. If it didn't, the app 403 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: store for the iPhone and iPad and and iPod touch 404 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: would be empty. You know, there would be very few 405 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: apps that you could run because Apple only provides a few. Um. 406 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: But you know, they they they lean very heavily on 407 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: third parbaty developers. Not at the same time, third parbaty, 408 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: developers have to go through a very rigorous UH routine 409 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 1: in order to submit an app and have it featured 410 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 1: in the App Store, And of course if it's not 411 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 1: in the App Store, technically you can't load it on 412 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: an Apple device unless you've gone through the process of 413 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: jail breaking it. But using it unaltered an unaltered Apple device, 414 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: you can only load things that are through the the 415 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: Apple's official App Store, So in that sense it's closed 416 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 1: off because if it's not approved, then it doesn't go 417 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: on the same thing with Nintendo. You know, they would 418 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,719 Speaker 1: certify the games that would go on their systems, and 419 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: if it didn't get Nintendo certification, it didn't it didn't 420 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: get made, didn't become available on the Nintendo. So uh, 421 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: that's a closed way of looking at And again that 422 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: goes to that sort of quality control argument where the 423 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: closed the company perpetuating this closed system could argue that 424 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: this means that we only have applications of a certain 425 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: quality that we know are going to run properly on 426 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: our hardware. They're not going to cause any problems with 427 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: anything else running on our hardware, and they're going to 428 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: deliver an experience that we you know, it reaches a 429 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: certain level that we have come to expect with our 430 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: our products. Um, whereas if you go with an open system, 431 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: it's more like we want anyone to be able to 432 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: potentially run anything on this system that's been designed for it, 433 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: and we don't want to limit that at all. We 434 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: don't want to put our biases against certain kinds of applications, 435 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: are certain ways of creating stuff in play. We want 436 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: it to be an open playground for everybody. Yeah. Yeah, well, uh, 437 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,239 Speaker 1: you know, for for Windows, you can argue, you can 438 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: make the hardware argument, well, I can go and build 439 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: my own system from the components that I can get 440 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: in my my corner electronics store, and I can make 441 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: my own system and install Windows on it, and it's 442 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: gonna work. Of course, chances are that the there are 443 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 1: drivers for the video card and there are drivers for 444 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: all the devices that you're going to do it because 445 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 1: you're running Windows on it, And you would also have 446 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: to take considerations like, uh, which kind of motherboard are 447 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: you using? Because only certain motherboards will support certain processors 448 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: but not other processors. So yeah, you've got limitations on 449 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: on you know, It's not like even building a PC 450 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: from scratch is not totally open because some components are 451 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: going to limit which other components you can actually put 452 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: into your machine. In other words, not everything is compatible 453 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: with everything else, which is uh for for people who 454 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: are interested in dabbling with Lenox. That can be frustrating because, um, 455 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: the drivers come around some some component manufacturers will write 456 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 1: a driver for Lenox for their card or or device, 457 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: but not all of them will, and so it relies 458 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: on the community to put one in there. And for 459 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: people who go, you know what, I really want to 460 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: try one to or you know Lenox meant or you know, 461 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: any of the others, and I want to try this out. 462 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: So they put it the disk in there, they reboot 463 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: their machines, and they'll find out that parts of their 464 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: system don't don't quite work. Yeah, and the more the 465 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: more frustrating for people who are just playing around. Yeah, 466 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: the more obscure the elements are inside your machine, the 467 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: less likely you're gonna find support just off the top 468 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: of the bat. I mean, if it's something that's a 469 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: really popular component, then you can it's a pretty safe 470 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: bet that someone out there has created a driver for 471 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: it for an open source operating system, just because you 472 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: know law of averages. You've got a lot of people 473 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: who are using the same kind of hardware, then there's 474 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: a good chance someone has designed something so that that 475 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: hardware will work properly with an open source operating system. 476 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: But if you've got, you know, some cheap sound card 477 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: that you found that it's made by someone that hardly 478 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: anyone knows about, it may not have the support there 479 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: in an open source operating system. But then you know, 480 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: the same thing is true with if you if you 481 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: upgrade a Windows based PC and you go to the 482 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: newest form of Windows, often you will find that one 483 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: of the big problems is that you'll lose um support 484 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 1: for certain kinds of peripherals. The drivers will not update 485 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: or they aren't compatible with the new operating system, and 486 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: sometimes they gets patched, or sometimes the device manufacturers will 487 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: release a new driver that works specifically with a new 488 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: operating system. But you can get stuck that way too, 489 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: so it's not like it's only with open source. In fact, 490 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: that was one of the big problems that people were 491 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: reporting with mac Os ten Lion, was that you know, 492 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: if you upgraded that which is a closed system, you 493 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: know what you're talking about a known quantity with Apple hardware. 494 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: But if you upgraded, there were certain peripherals that they 495 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: didn't have driver support anymore, and you know, or certain 496 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: software that had no no longer had support, and it 497 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: was software that was designed to run on the Mac 498 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: operating system and yet could not run this newest version 499 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: of the OS. UH. So it's not like it's a 500 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: problem that's unique to open source. It can also happen 501 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: in a closed system. UM. You know, the people who 502 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: create closed systems would probably argue what happens less frequently, 503 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: or that you might not have to wait as long. 504 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: But that's you know, kind of splitting hairs. Yeah, that's um. 505 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: That's another thing too for for operating systems that are 506 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: designed by the community. UM, there's you know, it may 507 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: be difficult to find a particular driver or piece of 508 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: software simply because somebody may not necessarily be working on it. 509 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: Depending on if there are vulnerabilities in the operating system 510 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: the UH generally something like that is going to draw 511 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 1: the attention of the community and will be fixed more quickly. 512 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: Apple gets criticized from time to time when they find 513 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: vulnerabilities in the operating system that could open the machine 514 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: up to UH uh possible attack. UM you know, for 515 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: not acting on it as quickly as Microsoft does with 516 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: its patches. UM. You know. So there's there's a trade 517 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: off there, UM, but there is I think there is 518 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: some benefit in a way of being that more hybrid 519 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: system because um, you know, that attracts the most users. 520 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: I want some flexibility, but I want most mostly I 521 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: want it to work. UM. So you get that sort 522 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,479 Speaker 1: of combo uh system. And that's really sort of what 523 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: Android is really when you get down to it. Because 524 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: Android works on a multitude of different phones, whereas iOS. 525 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: Apple's iOS system works on Apple branded phones and those 526 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: only UM and some of the others due to the 527 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: the web os worked on the on the Palm phones, 528 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: UM you know, those are those are closed systems. UM. 529 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: Windows works on a on a variety of different phones. 530 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: But the problem is for developers, and they find this 531 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: with a variety of systems too, that um uh closed 532 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: system is an easier target for them to hit. UM. 533 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: One of the complaints I've heard from Android developers is that, uh, 534 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: they have difficulty writing software that will work with all 535 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: the different versions of the operating system they're out there, 536 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: and all all these different phones with all the different 537 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: hardware components, the thing being a part of the problem 538 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: being the carriers, because they're not the ones not pushing 539 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: out the operating system updates for the different phones. Some 540 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: of the older updates are just lingering on. I'm not 541 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: looking at you people who won't update my phone months 542 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: after Jonathan's gotten his anyway, um anyhow, Yes, I'm beating 543 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: the desk of my can because I'm angry with them. 544 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean that's a it's a problem for 545 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: developers a closed system. Hey, you know you have a 546 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: specific range of components. You know what kind of processor 547 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: in general is going to be in there. You have 548 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: a pretty good idea what the operating system entails. You know, 549 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: it's it's an easy target to hit. But the problem 550 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: with in the Mac cases, fewer people are using it, 551 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: so it's less it's a less desirable target hit because 552 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: there are fewer dollars to be made by writing software 553 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: for it. Trade off. Getting back to the idea of 554 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: the clothes versus open and operate system updates, uh so, 555 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: let's let's go ahead and we'll talk about Apple versus Google, 556 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: because that's that's pretty easy. And even then again, Apple 557 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: is not totally a close stem and Google. Google is 558 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: certainly not totally an open system. But it's a different approach, right, 559 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: Like you were saying, Uh, the iOS is only going 560 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: to appear on iPhones, You're not going to find that 561 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: another hardware. Um, it's because the iPhone was designed to 562 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: do it. That That's the way Apple once it done, 563 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: it's and that's how it's intended. So yeah, sticking with 564 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: phones because that makes it it makes illustration, makes illustration. 565 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: Uh So then on the Android side, Android can theoretically 566 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: be added to Like a manufacturer can choose to partner 567 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: with Google and create an Android phone. It's free, it's 568 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: pretty system is free. They can they can just build. 569 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: All you have to do is build hardware that is 570 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: capable of supporting Android, and then they are allowed to 571 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: have Android as the operating system for that smartphone. So 572 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: two different approaches. Um. Now with Apple, when there's an 573 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: OS update for iOS, Apple can push that out to 574 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: all the different devices that can still support that iOS. 575 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: But there's still going to be some that get left 576 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: behind eventually, just because the physical limitations of hardware will 577 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: be reached, you won't be able to go beyond this. 578 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: So if you have a first generation iPhone, it's only 579 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: going to run iOS up to a certain point, and 580 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: after that you're never gonna get an update again, because 581 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: you've reached the capacity of what that hardware is capable 582 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: of achieving without having a completely unsatisfying experience using that iPhone. Well, 583 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: they could just never make a newer one, except then 584 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: everyone would have what they were going to buy and 585 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: there wouldn't be any reason for them upgrade. So anyway, 586 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: Uh but yeah, But but if you have a fairly 587 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: recent like usually it's within for the last three generations, 588 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: the latest one, the one right before that, and maybe 589 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: the one before that, you typically are able to get 590 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: the latest um software upgrade. You might eventually get left behind, 591 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: like the three GS is probably getting pretty close to 592 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: its upper limits right now. But uh, you know, meanwhile, 593 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: when you go over to the Android side, you have 594 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: all these different carriers and they're all having they all 595 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: have handsets with different capabilities, and uh, you know, some 596 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: of those handsets might be able to run the latest 597 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: version of Android and some of them might not, you know, 598 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: or if they were to run the latest version of Android, 599 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,719 Speaker 1: the handset might get really hot and the battery might 600 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: drain really quickly, so you would have a very unhappy 601 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: experience u seeing it, even if you had the lace version. 602 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: You're like, well, I've got the lace version, but my 603 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: phone lasts for two hours, then it's dead, and at 604 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: the whole time it feels like it's gonna set my 605 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: pants on fire. Um, make all the excuses you want, 606 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: they still haven't pushed it out to my phone. Okay, 607 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: Well for some people, like Chris setting your pants on fire, 608 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: apparently it's a feature, not a bug. Um, but what 609 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: kills there? You go, Okay, well we've all learned something 610 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: new about christa. Um. So yeah, the the that is 611 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: that is one of the downsides. Now again, like Chris 612 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: was saying, you've got a lot more choice with the 613 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: open system. So if you want a phone that has 614 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: a certain processor in it or has a certain kind 615 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: of camera in it, you've got a lot more choice 616 00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: than you would if you are on the other side. 617 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: Closestem You've got you know, with the closestem you essentially 618 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: have the latest version of it, and usually the one 619 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: directly before it, and maybe the one before that. And 620 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: uh yeah, I mean you have all the people that 621 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: have adopted and and Android numbers that we've that have 622 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: been coming out as of about the time that we're 623 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: recording this in very very late. Um, Android numbers are 624 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: taking off. I mean they're far outstripping apples iPhone new 625 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: customers even as fast as the iPhone sales. And I 626 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: think there are two big reasons. But I'm sorry, go ahead, 627 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: Well I was gonna say, is that, well, go ahead, Well, 628 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: the two big reasons I see is one, there's way 629 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: more choice. Yeah, right, so you've got like all these 630 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: different options. And two there are a lot more lower 631 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: cost options out there, Like with the iPhone you've got 632 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: you know, you've got the latest version, which is going 633 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: to be pretty expensive, and then the older version, which 634 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: is slightly less expensive. But you're not gonna find any 635 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: like bargain bin types off you're not gonna come across. 636 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone who's ever offered like a 637 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: free iPhone with a two year contract, but there have 638 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: been Android phones, the older ones. Yeah, um, actually low 639 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: cost I guess maybe not free. Um. Well, that the 640 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: thing is that now that that Android is becoming the 641 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: big target for developers in its class. Um, you know, 642 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: there are all kinds of apps that are out there 643 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: and available for it. Um. They're also all kinds of 644 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: app stores that you can use to You don't have 645 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: to go through just the Google Marketplace if you don't 646 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: want to, although you do have to change a setting 647 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: on your phone in order to be able to access them. 648 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 1: That that's correct. Um. The thing is, though, the bigger 649 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: the target, the more people the developers of all kinds, 650 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: including malware developers, It attracts that um not you know, 651 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: this has nothing to do with the quality of the 652 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: operating system or the security measures inherent in the operating system. 653 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: It's just a bigger target and therefore it's a um, 654 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: a juicier place to strike for the person and even 655 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: the legit people too. I mean, hey, I can I 656 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: can sell my app in this app store and reach 657 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: five thousand people. I can sell my app in this 658 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: app store and reach five million people itself far more 659 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: over here. The thing is, though, and also UH and 660 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: I would argue that this is the case for any 661 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: tech that has reached that kind of UH adoption rate, 662 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: that it also inspires a lot of junk. I mean, 663 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: we saw it with Attari when opened up the platform 664 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: and allowed other people to write software for it. They 665 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,760 Speaker 1: were all kind of that's what caused the video game crept, 666 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: which is where I was getting into the whole curation 667 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: argument in the debate. If you are using an open system, 668 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: then you're gonna have a lot more choice with when 669 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: it comes to not just you know, options, but but 670 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: apps that you can run. But that also means that 671 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: with the good comes a lot of bad, not that 672 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: the closed systems necessarily you know, it's not that Apple 673 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: is free of bad apps. There are plenty of bad 674 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: apps in the Apple App Store, So I don't mean 675 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: to say that, but no, no, it because that there's 676 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: not necessarily like there's no qualifier to create an app 677 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: for Google, and you can submit to the Google Marketplace, 678 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: or you can even host it somewhere else if you 679 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: want to and not even go through the the process 680 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: of submitting it to Google market and people can still 681 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: find it and download it to their shorts or tablets, 682 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: you know, mobile devices. Um, but yeah, that curation becomes 683 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: a problem because then if you've got that much choice 684 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: and there's no like, there's no one out there who's 685 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: kind of curating this for you, it all falls on 686 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: your shoulders. And uh, that can just get exhausting. I mean, 687 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: I mean looking through just the list of applications, uh, 688 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: just you know, going page by page. You sit there 689 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: and think, well, I could look at the ones that 690 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: are the most popular and use that as kind of 691 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: a guide of curation. But it may very well be 692 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,919 Speaker 1: that the app that really meets my needs is eight 693 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: pages down. And you know that gets kind of frustrating 694 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: after a while. Um. Yeah, And it's it's It's funny 695 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: too because one of the things that to some people 696 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: have said against Lenox. I mean, I've I've used a 697 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: couple of different flavors of Linux. I really like the 698 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: operating system. I Um, I don't like that there are 699 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: fewer people writing software for it, but I still I 700 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: love the idea, and I like the operating system an 701 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: awful lot um and the more I play with it, 702 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: the more I've enjoyed using it. But the thing is, 703 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: some people have said that the fact that it's free 704 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: is a problem because it sort of encourages people to 705 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: think that it's not actually worth anything. Right, it should 706 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 1: have money. It gives it gives a It gives some 707 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: people the feeling that, well, if it's free, it must 708 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: not be very good. Because yeah, because you know, if 709 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 1: it were good, I'd have to pay money for it, 710 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: which is untrue. Which is funny because if you had 711 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: to pay money for it, people will be trying to 712 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 1: find a way around having to pay money for it. 713 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: Now you're you're making my brain hurt. Here's the crazy Okay, 714 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: stereotypical computer user, stereotypical Internet savvy computer user. All right, 715 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: if something doesn't cost money, then it's not worth having. 716 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: If it's If something costs money, it's worth having, but 717 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: you shouldn't pay for it. Yeah, like you are a 718 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: messed up person. Typical computer user. You need to re 719 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: examine your priorities. Yeah, yeah, well I think And by 720 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: the way, I was once like you, well, I think yeah, 721 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 1: ideally to me anyway, And I think it does come 722 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: down to personal choice. I think ideally, Um, I do 723 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: prefer a hybrid. I do want I don't want to 724 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: have to. I like the idea of being able to 725 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: hack into things and being able to make choices and 726 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: fool around with stuff, but I want it at the end, 727 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: I wanted to be able to work. I don't want 728 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: to spend all my time hacking with it. I was like, Okay, 729 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 1: I'm done now. I want to close the hood and 730 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: play on it, and I can't. Kind it broke. And 731 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: we both own devices that run Android, and we both 732 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: own devices that run Apple operating systems, so we both 733 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: own Windows computers. Yeah, so I mean, it's it's not 734 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: like it's not like we're saying this as fanboys of 735 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: one system versus another, even though we played that in 736 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: the debate. Um, I mean I I own an Android phone. 737 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: My wife has an iPhone, and we are both very 738 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 1: happy with our devices for very different reasons. It meets 739 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: exactly what she wants in a smartphone, but for me 740 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: it would probably be it's a beautiful device and it 741 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: has a great interface, but it probably would be more 742 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: frustrating to me than my Android phone, which meets my needs. 743 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,479 Speaker 1: Whereas the Android phone, I know for a fact, would 744 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: annoy and irritate my wife because she used to have 745 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: one and she doesn't anymore and she never will again 746 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: because she's very happy with her iPhone. So again, it's 747 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: too just two different people and two different uh preferences 748 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: for the operating system. It's it's not that one is 749 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: inherently better or worse than the other. It's just that 750 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: it suits mine you know, one suits my needs and 751 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: one suits sers. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it all comes 752 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: down to the stuff that matters to the individual. Um. 753 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: And in the end, I think it's it's uh, most 754 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: people sort of go for the mix of things. Well, 755 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: I want this part to just work, but the rest 756 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: of it I want to be able to fool around with. 757 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: And I think that's another one of the appeals of Windows. 758 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,800 Speaker 1: It's it's sort of that middle ground. Um. You know, like, 759 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 1: like I said, we all own the various devices, and 760 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: we all see the value and and the limitations of 761 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: each system. Um. I think I think it really you know, 762 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 1: if if, however you're going about it, if you're dedicated 763 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: to making the best possible product or service that you 764 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: that you possibly can, whether it's as a member of 765 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: the community of the open source world, or if it's 766 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: you know, a closed system, I think that is what's 767 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: most important to me. The whole open versus closed is 768 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: just a general philosophy that guides your your development process. 769 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 1: It's not something that you know, I should definitely be 770 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: you know, uh endorsed or or or scorned. Well, it 771 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,240 Speaker 1: frustrates me listening to people talk about it and seeing 772 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: comments online from people who are so devoted to one 773 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: side or the other that they will scream and call 774 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: names and use profanity to definite side and going. But 775 00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I see, I see arguments for both sides, 776 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,840 Speaker 1: and yeah, I think there are valid points for both ye. 777 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: And it's it is a dangerous thing because once you 778 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,879 Speaker 1: get once you become a fan of a certain way 779 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,959 Speaker 1: of doing things, then it almost feels like if someone 780 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: else praises a different way of doing it, that it's 781 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: somehow an Yeah, it's an attack against what you like, 782 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: which isn't necessarily the case. It's yeah, no, it's definitely 783 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: not fair. But it does happen all the time. I 784 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: see it all the time where someone will praise one 785 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: system and someone else takes that as hey, you're saying 786 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: that the system I like sucks, And no, that's not 787 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: what I said. I just said that this system was 788 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: also good. I didn't even mention your system. Please don't 789 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 1: yell at me trolls. So if you want to know 790 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: more about that, listen to our podcast on how trolls 791 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 1: work East Jonathan Strickland in the operating system you like stinks? Right? Yeah, Okay, Well, 792 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: that that's a good summary. This was fun. I don't 793 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: know that will necessarily do any more debates, but this 794 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 1: was we just decided, like I said off the top 795 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: of the bat, yeah, maybe we'll do another one where 796 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: we'll do a very specific debate and how to pick 797 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,879 Speaker 1: two different things that that clearly have a divider between them. 798 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 1: In fact, we get a third person in here. We 799 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: could do the Xbox versus PlayStation versus Nintendo throwdown, which 800 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,760 Speaker 1: would be a blast. We have one person just crying 801 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: in the corner and say alright, so guys, if you 802 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 1: have any suggestions for future debates or other podcast let's know, 803 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 1: let's go on Facebook or Twitter. Are handled. There is 804 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: tech stuff hs W and Chris and I will talk 805 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:35,240 Speaker 1: to you again really soon. This episode of tech Stuff 806 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Hover dot com. However his 807 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 1: domain name registration and management. That's simple. Upgrade to a 808 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: premium domain and trade in your old clunkers. Visit hub 809 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 1: dot com. 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