WEBVTT - Episode 103: Golf Mythbusters 0:00:04.230 --> 0:00:06.189 The guys from Ping, they've kind of shown me how 0:00:06.269 --> 0:00:08.950 much the equipment matters. I just love that I can 0:00:08.970 --> 0:00:10.469 hit any shot I kind of want. 0:00:10.490 --> 0:00:12.010 We're going to be able to tell some fun stories 0:00:12.070 --> 0:00:14.310 about what goes on here to help golfers play better golf. 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:17.780 What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Ping Proving Grounds podcast. 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:21.560 Shane Bacon, Marty Jertson. Marty, today's episode, I'm hoping it'll 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.340 be something we do consistently throughout the future of this podcast. 0:00:25.380 --> 0:00:28.409 The idea of it is simply myth busters in golf. 0:00:28.570 --> 0:00:30.770 I mean, you're an extremely smart guy. You've been studying 0:00:31.190 --> 0:00:33.170 this game for a long time. You're a great player. 0:00:33.810 --> 0:00:35.639 You've played all over the world and played a high 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:38.559 level of competitive golf. Yet, I feel like we hear 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:40.680 these sayings about golf all the time thrown our way. 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.160 And I wanted you to like, you know, kind of 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.680 in depth with a little bit of note and numbers, 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:48.620 dive into some of the stuff that people talk about 0:00:49.020 --> 0:00:50.280 in golf a lot. You down for this? 0:00:50.620 --> 0:00:53.870 Yeah, no, I love it, Shane. I think, yeah, I 0:00:53.910 --> 0:00:57.450 love this topic, Mythbusters. And the way we try to 0:00:57.490 --> 0:00:59.970 think about this, you know, in our research group at 0:00:59.990 --> 0:01:01.830 Ping is that maybe some of these things have a 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.380 ounce of truth to them. Some of them may, may not, 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:07.720 you don't want to kind of just reject the entire myth. 0:01:08.300 --> 0:01:10.600 So there's some pieces of it that might have truth. 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.240 Let's go and dive in and, uh, and see where 0:01:13.260 --> 0:01:14.340 this goes. This will be a fun one. 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:16.920 We're not going to start with the one I get 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.580 the most, which is, you know, as a left-handed golfer, they, the, 0:01:19.620 --> 0:01:21.060 the old guy walks by on the range and said, 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:22.840 you're standing on the wrong side of the ball. I'm 0:01:22.890 --> 0:01:25.330 technically standing on the right side of the ball. If 0:01:25.390 --> 0:01:28.210 everybody wanted to be really, really technical, um, but definitely 0:01:28.250 --> 0:01:31.010 as a left-handed golfer, my least favorite, uh, I want 0:01:31.030 --> 0:01:32.930 to start with probably the one we hear the most. 0:01:33.069 --> 0:01:35.090 I think this is the one that the guy in 0:01:35.130 --> 0:01:37.929 your foursome you haven't played with throws out there as 0:01:37.990 --> 0:01:39.780 much as anybody, especially if you hit a good tee 0:01:39.810 --> 0:01:43.640 shot on the first. This is drive for show, putt 0:01:43.700 --> 0:01:46.880 for dough. I feel like we live in a society now, Marty, 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.960 where driving the golf ball is the most important thing 0:01:50.060 --> 0:01:52.550 in golf, yet we still have this saying that I 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.450 think probably gets talked too much about in 2026. 0:01:56.450 --> 0:01:58.720 Oh, yeah. You hear it all the time, Shane, which is, man, 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.220 it doesn't matter what you do, tee to green. It's 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:05.100 all about putting. You know, putting's everything. Short game's everything. 0:02:05.540 --> 0:02:10.720 And I think the, you know, the start of the 0:02:11.020 --> 0:02:15.299 first principles answer to this was when Mark Brody, whose 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:17.660 son works for us here, Chris Brody, in my group 0:02:17.780 --> 0:02:19.960 and helps me build a lot of tools here, do 0:02:19.980 --> 0:02:22.420 a lot of data analysis, wrote the book Every Shot Counts. 0:02:22.910 --> 0:02:25.200 So this is basically the Moneyball book for golf. If 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:27.460 anyone hasn't read this, it's kind of into the game, 0:02:27.500 --> 0:02:30.780 how to improve their game. This is kind of the 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.750 start of the snowball, the invention of strokes gained, and 0:02:34.930 --> 0:02:39.410 really understanding truly, which I think what this book did 0:02:39.470 --> 0:02:42.350 and the principles in there, Shane, really, really well, is 0:02:42.410 --> 0:02:46.090 it decoded what the best coaches and players already kind 0:02:46.130 --> 0:02:48.519 of knew and what they were already working on. So 0:02:48.580 --> 0:02:50.750 if you look at I think a great example from 0:02:50.790 --> 0:02:52.590 that book, or if you look back maybe 10 or 0:02:52.590 --> 0:02:56.900 15 years ago, was Vijay Singh. Vijay Singh was not 0:02:56.940 --> 0:02:59.120 a great putter of the golf ball, and he had 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:03.160 this incredible run being a very average putter, and how 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.820 did he do it? He did it through incredible driving 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.870 and then incredible strokes gained approach or hitting his irons 0:03:09.910 --> 0:03:13.970 with very high proximity. You're even seeing this in today's age, 0:03:14.010 --> 0:03:17.370 maybe not the last year or two with Scotty Scheffler's play, 0:03:17.410 --> 0:03:19.840 but He had a period of time where he just, 0:03:19.910 --> 0:03:21.970 you know, he was very dominant all through his driving 0:03:21.990 --> 0:03:25.829 and his ball striking. So driving the golf ball is, 0:03:26.010 --> 0:03:27.630 I would look at it like you're going to build 0:03:27.669 --> 0:03:31.150 a house and that's your foundation. Like the foundation of 0:03:31.190 --> 0:03:34.330 your game is driving the golf ball. And why is 0:03:34.370 --> 0:03:37.750 that important? For every 10 more yards you drive it 0:03:37.810 --> 0:03:41.490 off the tee from a distance standpoint to the everyday golfer, 0:03:41.550 --> 0:03:43.690 that's hitting one less club into the green. So if 0:03:43.730 --> 0:03:46.940 you drive it 20 yards further, two less clubs. So 0:03:47.020 --> 0:03:50.619 driving has this compounding effect that it makes the game 0:03:50.740 --> 0:03:53.720 easier and easier because you're hitting it further down there, 0:03:54.220 --> 0:03:56.960 you have less clubbing to the green, and as you 0:03:56.980 --> 0:03:59.000 have less clubbing to the green, your proximity to the 0:03:59.060 --> 0:04:01.800 hole gets closer, you're going to carry more bunkers, you're 0:04:01.820 --> 0:04:02.920 going to be able to stop the ball in the 0:04:02.940 --> 0:04:05.320 green quicker if the greens get firm, etc. So it 0:04:05.340 --> 0:04:09.540 has this compounding effect. Driving the golf ball is a 0:04:09.580 --> 0:04:12.660 very kind of a consistent thing too. It's easy to predict. 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.560 Like if you... bring a golfer in here to the 0:04:15.620 --> 0:04:18.480 proving grounds for a fitting or a college player and 0:04:18.500 --> 0:04:20.620 you want to analyze how good they are at golf 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.640 without looking at their statistics. You have no history on them. 0:04:24.380 --> 0:04:26.640 You can tell by hitting just as few as like 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.240 five or ten drives pretty much how good of a 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.279 driver of the golf ball they are. Their ball speed, 0:04:31.300 --> 0:04:34.719 their dispersion. You already start to get a really clear picture. 0:04:35.500 --> 0:04:37.080 You're going to have to have them hit a lot 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.440 of putts to be able to determine how good of 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.100 a putter they are. So putting has a lot of 0:04:42.140 --> 0:04:46.440 day-to-day variability, which is another factor also. I think the 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.359 conclusion here, Shane, is that driving is the base. Putting 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:54.550 is number two. It's close by. But I like the phrase. 0:04:54.610 --> 0:04:56.750 I don't know if this is my original phrase or 0:04:56.830 --> 0:04:59.229 somebody else kind of coined it, but you drive for 0:04:59.290 --> 0:05:02.630 dough and you putt to win. And that's really the key, right? 0:05:02.650 --> 0:05:03.250 I like that. 0:05:03.430 --> 0:05:05.710 You drive for dough and then you have a good 0:05:05.770 --> 0:05:07.409 putting week. That's when you win the tournament. 0:05:07.730 --> 0:05:10.680 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it is interesting that you say 0:05:10.710 --> 0:05:13.300 driving is the foundation of golf because I think, you know, 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:15.440 I'm 42 years old. I think you're similar age. I 0:05:15.460 --> 0:05:19.100 think growing up, it was an era of players that, 0:05:19.779 --> 0:05:22.120 you know, would take less than driver off a lot 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.100 of tees to get the ball in play, right? And 0:05:24.140 --> 0:05:27.180 I think in those early 2000s, we started to understand 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.780 that the farther you pushed it up on a certain hole, 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:32.770 even if you're in the rough, famously, I remember, I 0:05:32.790 --> 0:05:34.890 don't know which Open Championship it was, but you mentioned 0:05:34.910 --> 0:05:37.190 the name Vijay. I remember there was a stat, this 0:05:37.230 --> 0:05:40.230 was before Strokes gained, He was last in the field 0:05:40.589 --> 0:05:43.230 through two rounds in drive and accuracy, and he was 0:05:43.310 --> 0:05:46.110 first in the field in greens and regulation. There were 0:05:46.150 --> 0:05:49.810 certain players that understood the importance of booming it off 0:05:49.850 --> 0:05:52.890 the tee. My question to you is, does that stay 0:05:52.930 --> 0:05:56.010 consistent in terms of the foundation of a golfer? Does 0:05:56.050 --> 0:05:58.850 that stay consistent away from pro golf, like with an 0:05:58.910 --> 0:06:02.730 amateur player? Is driving still in your mind the most 0:06:02.810 --> 0:06:06.270 important of golf today, and putting would still be second 0:06:06.310 --> 0:06:06.690 behind that? 0:06:07.410 --> 0:06:11.210 Yeah, I think the relative importance is about the same. 0:06:11.250 --> 0:06:13.890 That's a great question, Shane, because we don't always want 0:06:13.910 --> 0:06:16.529 to look at, you know, every day 10 handicap or 0:06:16.529 --> 0:06:18.720 20 handicap or listen to the pod here. You don't 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:21.719 always want to take what the stats are, the analytics 0:06:21.740 --> 0:06:23.760 from tour and apply it to you. The rules might 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.159 be different. The ratios, the relationships could certainly be different. 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.669 When it comes to driving and putting, the relative importance 0:06:30.750 --> 0:06:36.430 stays about the same. And if anything, the less skilled player, 0:06:36.490 --> 0:06:39.030 the higher handicap player, you actually want to put a 0:06:39.150 --> 0:06:41.710 little bit, we've talked about this when it comes to 0:06:41.750 --> 0:06:44.690 the importance of distance versus accuracy off the tee, you 0:06:44.740 --> 0:06:46.700 want to put a little bit more importance to driving 0:06:46.740 --> 0:06:50.140 the ball far, actually, or increasing your club head speed, 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:51.680 or when you go in for a driver fitting from 0:06:51.700 --> 0:06:55.440 an equipment standpoint, putting just a little bit more emphasis 0:06:55.500 --> 0:06:58.200 on driving the ball far. The big caveat with this, 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.320 and you know, there's this, I forget the acronym, but 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:05.120 of course there's all obvious exceptions, right? Is that you 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.680 don't want to bring in, and from a strategy standpoint, 0:07:07.779 --> 0:07:11.900 penalty shots. You want to avoid penalty shots. So that's 0:07:11.980 --> 0:07:14.500 obviously dependent on your golf course and things of that nature. 0:07:14.540 --> 0:07:19.280 But in general, the general conclusion, try to focus on driving. 0:07:19.380 --> 0:07:21.500 Don't be afraid. And I think this is one of 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:25.100 the pieces from a practice or training standpoint, Shane, that 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:27.440 I've certainly changed my tune on over the years and 0:07:27.460 --> 0:07:29.930 changed my mind on. I was always like, ah, don't 0:07:29.940 --> 0:07:31.830 hit a ton of drivers on the range. Go spend 0:07:31.850 --> 0:07:35.050 your time putting. Actually, it's okay. And I'm, my kids 0:07:35.070 --> 0:07:38.230 do this. Like when, now that I'm coaching them, pound 0:07:38.270 --> 0:07:40.550 the driver, go on the range, pound the driver, try 0:07:40.590 --> 0:07:42.350 to get your ball speed up, do a little speed 0:07:42.390 --> 0:07:44.830 training because I, you know, and you're seeing this with 0:07:44.850 --> 0:07:48.150 the young players coming up, uh, the, that important of, 0:07:48.330 --> 0:07:50.710 of driving the golf ball. Ideally you want to do 0:07:50.770 --> 0:07:52.420 both and you want to hit your iron, you know, 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:54.590 you want to, early on in the game, you want 0:07:54.610 --> 0:07:56.680 to focus on hitting a lot of greens and regulation. 0:07:57.270 --> 0:07:59.140 You want to, you want to focus on your driving, 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:02.200 but be mindful of penalty shots. Right. And so that's 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:03.120 kind of a high level rule. 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:05.600 Yeah. And I mean, just kind of to take it 0:08:05.620 --> 0:08:07.520 back to pro golf, just for a moment. I mean, 0:08:07.780 --> 0:08:09.640 we talk about driving a lot. I mean, I think 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.200 driving has been, um, talked about more in pro golf 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.320 over the last 10 years than ever before. Um, the 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.420 importance of it, distance guys trying to get longer. Um, 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.380 we saw that this off season with Victor Hovland trying 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.190 to gain a bit distance, but and it really kind 0:08:21.210 --> 0:08:23.510 of come into fruition late in the season there. But 0:08:23.890 --> 0:08:25.850 top five in terms of strokes gained off the tee 0:08:25.870 --> 0:08:28.150 this past season on the PGA Tour, it was Neil 0:08:28.210 --> 0:08:31.910 Shipley won, Rory, Michael Brennan, Keith Mitchell, and Scotty Scheffler 0:08:31.930 --> 0:08:34.230 were top five. When you go to strokes gained putting, 0:08:34.950 --> 0:08:38.590 Bridgman was one, Vince Whaley two, Alex Noren three, Sam 0:08:38.630 --> 0:08:41.710 Burns four, and Matt McNeely five. A little difference in 0:08:41.770 --> 0:08:44.890 terms of the skill sets there. It seems like the 0:08:44.929 --> 0:08:46.620 best golfers in the world right now. Listen, Scotty's an 0:08:46.650 --> 0:08:49.020 incredible putter. and he has been the last two seasons, 0:08:49.380 --> 0:08:52.780 but being an incredible driver of the golf ball comparatively 0:08:53.100 --> 0:08:55.520 to the players you're going against can push you, in 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.449 my opinion, past maybe another skill set that you can occupy. 0:09:00.050 --> 0:09:03.449 Yeah, absolutely. And then just being able for the everyday golfer, 0:09:03.550 --> 0:09:06.469 being able to hit more greens in regulation. I mean, 0:09:06.510 --> 0:09:09.030 that's the base thing for the everyday golfer. Then when 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.040 you get to the PGA Tour elite level golfer, it's 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.980 that strokes gained approach or proximity to the hole which 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.679 is then the separator. Again, we talk about Scottie a lot, 0:09:18.740 --> 0:09:22.240 but that's an area of his game, obviously, is superb 0:09:22.260 --> 0:09:24.860 and then carving the ball into different pins and things 0:09:24.900 --> 0:09:27.620 of that nature. That would be a skill for the 0:09:27.660 --> 0:09:31.000 elite level player, but for the everyday golfer, man, just 0:09:31.070 --> 0:09:32.780 get that number to the middle of the green and 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:34.650 try to hit a lot of greens in regulation. The 0:09:34.750 --> 0:09:37.150 better you drive it, the better you can do that. 0:09:37.170 --> 0:09:40.650 And that's that compounding effect you get. But certainly then 0:09:40.690 --> 0:09:44.030 when it comes to putting, Putting, definitely important. I do 0:09:44.070 --> 0:09:47.850 not want to dismiss that. Putting is just below driving. 0:09:48.309 --> 0:09:49.310 It's a number two. You just saw it this season 0:09:49.330 --> 0:09:53.150 with Windham, yep. Yep, it's a number two. And certainly, 0:09:53.210 --> 0:09:57.550 I think, for the everyday golfer, trying to reduce your 0:09:57.570 --> 0:09:59.870 number of three putts and really focus on your makeover. 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.640 percentage in that like four to eight foot range. Like 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:05.370 if you're going to do anything and when you're practicing 0:10:05.380 --> 0:10:08.990 your putting, reduce your three putt percentage from 25 feet 0:10:09.010 --> 0:10:12.630 and beyond, and then really focus on that four to 0:10:12.770 --> 0:10:15.270 eight foot range. If you can get better in that area, 0:10:15.330 --> 0:10:16.890 that's where your putting can really take off. 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:19.780 One of the things I always thought when I was younger, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:22.140 when people would say drive for show and putt for dough, 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.560 I always thought to myself, tough to putt for dough 0:10:24.580 --> 0:10:27.319 when you're putting for six, you know, play off the tee, 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.660 like the importance of driving it. Well, long straight, um, 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:32.520 comes into play there. That to me is probably the 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.800 most used in terms of these myths we'll cover. Uh, 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:37.870 but we've got a few more. Um, one of them 0:10:37.950 --> 0:10:39.809 that I love is, is you can't spin the ball 0:10:39.830 --> 0:10:42.010 from the rough, right? You hit in the rough, you 0:10:42.030 --> 0:10:43.970 create no spin. The ball's going to come out knuckly. 0:10:44.010 --> 0:10:46.930 Every time we see pros on TV, uh, hit the 0:10:46.950 --> 0:10:50.050 ball in the rough, and create an incredible amount of spin. 0:10:50.570 --> 0:10:52.550 Is that true that you can't create it out of 0:10:52.570 --> 0:10:54.910 the rough, or is it just lessening your ability to 0:10:54.950 --> 0:10:55.590 pull the shot off? 0:10:56.250 --> 0:10:58.610 Yeah, this is a very nuanced one because you certainly 0:10:58.650 --> 0:11:03.360 have seen, man, I remember Kalkovecchia at the Open Championship 0:11:03.380 --> 0:11:05.420 spin that ball of the rough, the famous shot about 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.420 the grooves and all that, right? That was one, and 0:11:07.460 --> 0:11:09.280 I think it was maybe even drizzling then and things 0:11:09.300 --> 0:11:11.939 of that nature. There's a lot to spinning the ball 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:13.400 of the rough. I think if you're going to have 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:19.020 a high-level general conclusion– Yeah, your spins are generally going 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:24.970 to go down out of the rough. But you can also, conversely, Shane, 0:11:25.150 --> 0:11:28.369 hit your highest spin shots on the course outside of 0:11:28.429 --> 0:11:31.130 teeing it up from lies out of the rough. So 0:11:31.250 --> 0:11:33.230 I know you and I have probably had those lies, 0:11:33.250 --> 0:11:36.220 a certain type of maybe ryegrass rough or bluegrass where 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.040 the ball, you get it in the rough and the 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.059 ball is sitting very, very up. It's like teed up. Yeah. 0:11:41.690 --> 0:11:44.449 Now that's the opportunity right there. If you're hitting like 0:11:44.490 --> 0:11:47.609 a lob wedge, sand wedge, gap wedge, high lofted club, 0:11:48.230 --> 0:11:52.579 you will generate actually more spin from that condition. And 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.660 the reason why it's similar to hitting indoors off a mat, 0:11:56.179 --> 0:11:59.480 you can get super high friction. So not a lot 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.930 of debris between the ball and the face. So when 0:12:01.970 --> 0:12:04.189 you're reading lies in the rough, I like to think 0:12:04.230 --> 0:12:06.230 about it in two different ways. There's actually some really 0:12:06.250 --> 0:12:09.559 good tour coaches that help tour players read the lies 0:12:09.620 --> 0:12:11.780 out of the rough. It's one of the most nuanced skills. 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:15.200 It's like an art slash science, reading your lie and 0:12:15.300 --> 0:12:18.140 understanding what's going to happen. You got two main factors. 0:12:18.820 --> 0:12:22.510 How good can you basically get friction between the ball 0:12:22.550 --> 0:12:27.430 and the face? Uh, beef like in, in the impact interval, 0:12:27.510 --> 0:12:30.530 like when the club's traveling through the rough, how much 0:12:30.630 --> 0:12:32.849 grass is going to be between the ball and the 0:12:32.870 --> 0:12:35.030 club face or debris or moisture between the ball and 0:12:35.050 --> 0:12:38.610 the face. pre-impact and then the second factor which a 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:40.850 lot of people don't think about but this is the 0:12:40.910 --> 0:12:43.089 key to really reading your lie out of the rough 0:12:43.630 --> 0:12:45.930 is what is the ball going to have to travel 0:12:46.050 --> 0:12:49.929 through before it reaches the air right so if you're 0:12:49.990 --> 0:12:52.469 on the back end on the back end how much 0:12:52.510 --> 0:12:55.230 is the ball going to travel through because you can't 0:12:55.270 --> 0:12:57.270 have certain lies where it's like hey i can get 0:12:57.330 --> 0:13:00.410 a lot i i'm pretty clean, not a lot of grass, 0:13:00.570 --> 0:13:03.950 or maybe the grass is very light, or I'm hitting 0:13:03.990 --> 0:13:06.090 a certain club that's going to generate a lot of friction, 0:13:06.370 --> 0:13:08.030 but then the ball is going to need to travel 0:13:08.110 --> 0:13:12.270 through maybe some very into the grain, rough trampled down 0:13:12.370 --> 0:13:15.270 or cart drove backward in that area or what have you, 0:13:16.030 --> 0:13:18.270 where the ball's going to hit all the grains of 0:13:18.309 --> 0:13:20.430 the grass and have to fly through that. And that's 0:13:20.450 --> 0:13:23.630 going to reduce the spin because you're getting little forces 0:13:23.690 --> 0:13:25.550 on the ball that's going to reduce the spin. So 0:13:25.570 --> 0:13:28.069 there's basically when you go to read a lie in 0:13:28.110 --> 0:13:32.010 the rough, hey, how clean can I contact it? And 0:13:32.050 --> 0:13:34.599 how much speed can I generate? What club am I hitting? 0:13:34.780 --> 0:13:37.440 Those are some of the factors going into play there. 0:13:38.300 --> 0:13:42.540 And that's where ball technology and how hydrophobic the ball is, grooves, 0:13:42.900 --> 0:13:45.680 hydrophobic finish, groove design all come into play on that front. 0:13:46.020 --> 0:13:47.990 And then the second factor is what's the ball going 0:13:48.010 --> 0:13:50.750 to have to travel through on the way out? And 0:13:50.809 --> 0:13:53.150 so really the calculus, and I think the great players 0:13:53.190 --> 0:13:56.060 who can predict how much spin they're going to get 0:13:56.100 --> 0:13:58.360 from the rough, kind of have this skill of being 0:13:58.420 --> 0:14:01.500 able to determine those two factors. There's definitely some scenarios 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.560 where you can generate more spin out of the rough. 0:14:04.220 --> 0:14:08.559 And that's very ball sitting up with high lofted club. 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.490 Then on the other end, Shane, it's where you get 0:14:11.610 --> 0:14:13.530 on the other side, we've talked about a few times 0:14:13.590 --> 0:14:16.590 on the pod, of spin loft mountain, which is long irons, 0:14:16.650 --> 0:14:20.550 maybe three, four, five, sometimes six iron. You get those 0:14:20.650 --> 0:14:23.330 out of the rough, little dewy conditions, And you will 0:14:23.370 --> 0:14:26.510 actually spin the ball more because it has to do 0:14:26.530 --> 0:14:28.790 with kind of the coefficient of friction, the ball sliding 0:14:28.830 --> 0:14:30.910 and rolling on the face. You can actually get a 0:14:30.950 --> 0:14:33.810 condition where those spin more. I like to call that 0:14:33.850 --> 0:14:37.480 a reverse flyer where it's going to put more spin 0:14:37.770 --> 0:14:39.860 on your long irons and the ball usually comes up 0:14:39.900 --> 0:14:42.480 a little bit short. And some of our listeners may 0:14:42.500 --> 0:14:44.800 have been, oh man, I remember when that happened. I 0:14:44.820 --> 0:14:46.300 just hit my five iron out of the rough the 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.840 other day and it kind of ballooned and spun and 0:14:48.860 --> 0:14:52.010 come up short. That's another scenario we can generate. more 0:14:52.030 --> 0:14:53.950 spin out of the rough. Maybe it might hurt you 0:14:53.970 --> 0:14:54.930 in that case. 0:14:56.170 --> 0:14:58.870 Is this something that's like practice-based? I mean, is this 0:14:58.890 --> 0:15:01.190 something for players? Like if they're trying to figure out 0:15:01.810 --> 0:15:04.700 like what shots do out of certain lies, is this 0:15:04.770 --> 0:15:07.050 literally going out on your golf course, dropping balls and 0:15:07.100 --> 0:15:09.920 just seeing what it feels like when it's way down 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:12.120 deep and nasty, gnarly, you're not going to be able 0:15:12.140 --> 0:15:14.020 to get to it or it's sitting up. Is that 0:15:14.060 --> 0:15:16.700 basically the only way to, as a golfer listening to 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:18.300 get comfortable with what the ball is going to do? 0:15:18.730 --> 0:15:20.890 Yeah, I would start, if you're a golfer, A, you 0:15:20.910 --> 0:15:22.870 can go practice that. If you've got a course in 0:15:22.890 --> 0:15:25.810 a facility where you can go practice different lies out 0:15:25.830 --> 0:15:28.070 of the rough, it's a very important skill. Shane, you 0:15:28.110 --> 0:15:32.290 get to a U.S. Open or PGA Championship, man, everyone's 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.780 practicing out of the rough, right? They're like, okay, what's 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:36.080 the ball going to do out of the rough? You 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.560 pretty much know how things are going to behave out 0:15:39.580 --> 0:15:42.140 of the fairway. So everyday golfer, you can certainly go 0:15:42.180 --> 0:15:45.100 out on the course and practice it. And when you do, 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.720 I would think about and be observant, whether you're practicing 0:15:48.780 --> 0:15:51.000 it or just observing it when you're playing daily play 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.940 or your money games and what have you, competitions. Try 0:15:54.980 --> 0:15:58.140 to think about it with those two phases. How much grass, 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:00.820 how much ball can I see? I think, Shane, one 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.480 thing you probably always know, and I do this with 0:16:03.540 --> 0:16:05.440 my kids when I'm caddying or me when I'm playing, 0:16:05.500 --> 0:16:07.540 is if you can see the ball down the rough 0:16:07.580 --> 0:16:09.260 and you can see a lot of the back of 0:16:09.300 --> 0:16:11.880 the ball, you're going to get pretty good friction, right? 0:16:11.980 --> 0:16:13.920 If you see less of the back of the ball. 100%. 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.960 You're going to have more occlusion between the ball and 0:16:16.980 --> 0:16:19.110 the club face. And then, so think about it with 0:16:19.490 --> 0:16:23.490 how clean is the lie making impact with it? And 0:16:23.530 --> 0:16:27.150 then the second piece, how much grass is going to, 0:16:27.490 --> 0:16:30.730 and what grain direction, which direction is it going when 0:16:30.750 --> 0:16:33.990 it exits the rough? And if you start just thinking 0:16:34.050 --> 0:16:37.830 about those two things, your brain pattern recognition machine will 0:16:37.850 --> 0:16:39.600 start developing some intelligence around that. 0:16:41.060 --> 0:16:42.740 This is a pretty good one. I asked a couple 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:44.360 of friends if they had any out there. This was 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.400 a submission from a buddy of mine. The wind doesn't 0:16:47.500 --> 0:16:51.730 touch a purely struck golf shot. You hear this a 0:16:51.790 --> 0:16:54.730 lot from caddies, especially if you hit one over the 0:16:54.770 --> 0:16:57.170 green into the wind, right? Ah, you hit it too solid. 0:16:57.470 --> 0:17:02.030 Those types of things. Is this true? Is there truth 0:17:02.110 --> 0:17:02.350 in it? 0:17:03.490 --> 0:17:07.070 That's a great one, Shane. Actually, so wind doesn't touch 0:17:07.130 --> 0:17:10.280 a purely struck shot. Here's where I go to in 0:17:10.340 --> 0:17:17.020 thinking about this. Most golfers, if they don't hit a 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:21.060 good shot, let's say you're playing, you're like straight into 0:17:21.100 --> 0:17:23.120 the headwind. And I think that's one of the toughest 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:27.820 shots because any little deviation and offline or spin axis 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.920 will magnify the air, right? If you're straight dead into 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:32.980 the wind. This is kind of when I think about 0:17:33.030 --> 0:17:36.500 this scenario. And most golfers in the. 0:17:38.250 --> 0:17:40.930 Better skilled you are, the less you're going to curve 0:17:40.970 --> 0:17:44.410 the golf ball per like a hundred yards of carry, right? 0:17:44.450 --> 0:17:47.820 So the more skilled players generally curve the ball less. 0:17:48.410 --> 0:17:51.540 So I think one component of this, like, oh, I 0:17:51.619 --> 0:17:54.380 flushed it, is that you hit a shot with pretty 0:17:54.420 --> 0:17:57.960 much zero spin axis right into the wind. And because 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.020 it had no spin axis, none of the, none of 0:18:01.060 --> 0:18:03.990 the left, right would get magnified, right? I know that's 0:18:04.090 --> 0:18:06.710 some of the most pure shots I've hit dead into 0:18:06.730 --> 0:18:09.580 the wind. is maybe I hit them very pure. I 0:18:11.660 --> 0:18:14.020 lowered my trajectory window to try to get the peak 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.139 height down, but then I just had zero spin axis 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.150 on that golf ball. And so the wind never started 0:18:21.690 --> 0:18:24.210 hurting it either going right or going to the left. 0:18:24.930 --> 0:18:27.030 And that both made it go further because if you 0:18:27.050 --> 0:18:28.810 go more left or right, it shortens it. And then 0:18:28.830 --> 0:18:32.670 your dispersion is much tighter. So I actually think there's 0:18:32.730 --> 0:18:35.050 maybe a hint of truth on that for that scenario 0:18:35.070 --> 0:18:37.689 that I think everyone kind of anchors in their brain maybe, 0:18:38.130 --> 0:18:40.830 which is like I got that shot directly into the headwind. 0:18:41.550 --> 0:18:44.570 I flushed it. Okay, I also hit it dead straight. 0:18:45.530 --> 0:18:47.770 And so there's just no spin axis tilt on that 0:18:47.810 --> 0:18:50.470 golf ball. And so it didn't get hurt. But that 0:18:50.490 --> 0:18:54.600 being said, I mean... Uh, you know, I, the wind 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:57.219 is going to affect the ball flight. The wind itself 0:18:57.300 --> 0:18:59.850 doesn't care whether you struck the shot pure or not. 0:18:59.920 --> 0:19:03.230 It cares about the ball speed, launch spin magnitude and 0:19:03.270 --> 0:19:06.030 where it's flying. So I've, I've flushed some shots into 0:19:06.070 --> 0:19:09.590 a 30 mile an hour headwind that absolutely, uh, get, 0:19:09.930 --> 0:19:13.109 get touched. Um, and, uh, in, in the physics of 0:19:13.130 --> 0:19:14.970 the ball flight doesn't, doesn't care at the end of 0:19:14.990 --> 0:19:15.650