1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea. 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 2: You're in New York. I am. 3 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: I'm in New York City. I got here. 4 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 3: I flew from San Francisco this morning. I had a 5 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 3: great dinner last night. Oh what's that restaurant called in 6 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 3: San Francisco, Nopa? 7 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Oh it was so good. If you're in San Francisco, 8 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: you got to go there. Anyway. 9 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 3: I had dinner with my nephew. Oh, he's not my nephew, 10 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 3: he's my cousin. I don't know what any one's relation 11 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 3: to me is my doctor cousin Ted, who I tried 12 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 3: to get a prescription from, and then his partner, and 13 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 3: then my niece, she's leaving for a semester abroad, and 14 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 3: my sister and Doug. I had on the I had 15 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 3: on the road. Doug and I went wine tasting. We 16 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 3: went to Napa. I had a show in Saratoga. Then 17 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 3: he and I went to San Francisco. We went to 18 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 3: Point Reyis. 19 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: Oh, he lovely. 20 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 3: We went to the beach in San Francisco. There's a 21 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 3: huge doggy beach and we went there on Saturday, and 22 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 3: Doug humiliated me. No, he yeah, yeah, I couldn't even 23 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 3: pretend I knew him. It was so humiliating. He had 24 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 3: the zoomies for close to like forty five minutes. I 25 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 3: thought he was going to have a heart attack. And 26 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 3: me trying to call my dog when he doesn't come 27 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 3: is so embarrassing and humiliating at a dog park, especially 28 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 3: when everyone's off leash, because everyone's like, well, then you 29 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 3: shouldn't be here, and it's like, well, then fine, that's 30 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 3: not my dog. So I just walked in a different 31 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 3: direction hoping he'd follow. 32 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: Yeah. 33 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 3: I mean, he's screaming, Doug Come, Doug Come, in front 34 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 3: of all these other beach goers. 35 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: It's just humiliating. 36 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 3: It's like, especially with no response, and I have like treats, 37 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 3: I'm trying to bribe him with treats. But other than that, 38 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 3: I have to say he was fucking awesome because he 39 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 3: has like he's a little bipolar. He goes into a 40 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 3: restaurant immediately and lies down and goes to sleep. As 41 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 3: soon as we're sitting at a restaurant, I was like, 42 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 3: that's so awesome. He doesn't beg for food. 43 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: It's perfect. 44 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, And then when you get him on the beach 45 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: and he's got this big personality there, So I mean, 46 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 3: I was pretty pleased with him. 47 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: I brought him on stage at one of my shows 48 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: at the Saratoga Mountain Winery. 49 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 3: Oh, which reminds me of my Vegas residency starts this Saturday. 50 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 3: Coming to Vegas nine September first, is my very first 51 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 3: Vegas residence date. So I will be there with bells 52 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 3: on everybody. I hope I see you there, excellent. Our 53 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 3: guest today is the number one New York Times bestselling 54 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 3: author of twenty nine novels, including Mad Honey, My Sister's Keeper, 55 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 3: and her newest book, which you guys are gonna love 56 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 3: By any Other Name, Please welcome Jody Pico. 57 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 4: Hi, Jody, Hello, how. 58 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: Are you great? 59 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 3: Congratulations on your latest book, which is called by any 60 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 3: other Name. So let's talk about the subject matter in 61 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 3: this book, because it's fascinating and a lot of what 62 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 3: are they called Bardologists? 63 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: Is that what that they called? I think I saw a. 64 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 3: Word of that once, Right, Shakespeare lovers, this has been 65 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 3: a very heavy debate that's been going on for a 66 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 3: very long time, and I fucking love it. I love 67 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 3: it that Shakespeare wasn't necessarily we don't have enough proof 68 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 3: to know that Shakespeare was responsible for writing all of 69 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 3: what Shakespeare wrote. And I'm using quotation marks because a 70 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 3: lot of the experiences which you cover in this book 71 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 3: this is like, how would you describe it? 72 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 1: It's I mean, it's a novel. 73 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 4: It's definitely a novel. Yeah. To me. 74 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 5: It's a book about how women have been written out 75 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 5: of history by the men who were writing history, About 76 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 5: how women's voices have been silenced and are still being 77 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 5: silenced today. Takes place half in Elizabethan, England and half 78 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 5: in the modern world, and it's the story of two women. 79 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 4: One is in fifteen eighty one. 80 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 5: It's Amelia Bassano, who's a real life historical figure, and 81 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 5: she is a female playwright who can't get her stuff 82 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 5: in front of the public because she's a female playwright, 83 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 5: and she winds up paying a man for the use 84 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 5: of his name, and that man is William Shakespeare. And 85 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 5: then in twenty twenty four, it's the story of her descendant, 86 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 5: a woman named Melina Green, who's written a play about 87 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 5: her ancestor, Emilia, and is trying to get it to Broadway, 88 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 5: but in a very male dominated theater world that is 89 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 5: not happening, and she too has to decide whether she'll 90 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 5: write herself out of history in order to see her 91 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 5: work up on the stage. 92 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 4: And to me, it's a little bit of everything. 93 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 5: It is a page turner, it is a historical it's 94 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 5: the spiciest thing I've ever written. It is also the 95 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 5: timeliest thing I've ever written, because you know, women are 96 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 5: still fighting to be heard today and we're living in 97 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 5: a time when there's a small group of people who 98 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 5: are making decisions about what the rest of us should 99 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 5: be reading and who gets to write those stories. 100 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 3: Yes, I mean it's not only timely, this would be 101 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 3: timely at any point during history, because we're talking about 102 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: a five century span of time where we're still up 103 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 3: against the same barriers of entry as women. 104 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: So I heard this quote yesterday. It was interesting. What 105 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: was it. 106 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 3: I was listening to a podcast and it says you 107 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 3: can go decades without anything changing, and then in a 108 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 3: week it can feel like decades have changed. Like when 109 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 3: Kamala gets elected in November, that will be that kind 110 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 3: of feeling like we've been trying so hard, so hard, 111 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 3: so hard, and then it happens like this right in 112 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: the book. So, Amelia Basano is a real life person, 113 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 3: So how does that work when you're writing that, because 114 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 3: how can you write about some characters that are real 115 00:04:58,680 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: and some that are fictionalized. 116 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 5: So we know certain things about the real Amelia Bassano's life. 117 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 5: Most of them come from this diary of this hack 118 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 5: doctor slash astrologer that she went. 119 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 4: To when she had also. 120 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 5: And so this guy, his name was Simon Foreman. He 121 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 5: basically spent all his time trying to sleep with her, 122 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 5: which she also documented, by the way, and she rejected him. 123 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 5: But it tells us that she was Italian, that her 124 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 5: family came over from Italy because they were super talented musicians, 125 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 5: and Henry the eighth brought them over to be the 126 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 5: recorder consort to the king, and then they began working 127 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 5: for Queen Elizabeth. First, we know that she was Jewish, 128 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 5: and like the rest of her family, she had to 129 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 5: hide her religion. We know that when she was seven 130 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 5: and her dad died, she was given as award to 131 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 5: a countess who was really really atypical and gave her 132 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 5: this incredible classical education and a legal education, which girls, 133 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 5: especially not noble girls, were never given. And then when 134 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 5: Amelia was twelve, this woman got remarried and so Amelia 135 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 5: was kind of like lost for a little bit, and 136 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 5: for a summer she lived with the woman's brother, who 137 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 5: was a baron who happened to be the ambassador to 138 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 5: Denmark when he did a diplomatic visit to the King 139 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 5: and Queen. The next year, she was given as a 140 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 5: courtesan to the Lord Chamberlain of England, and he was 141 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 5: in charge of all theater. He was fifty six, she 142 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 5: was thirteen. 143 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: What a beautiful coupling. 144 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 4: It's lovely, isn't it. 145 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 5: She would have met all the players in the theater industry, 146 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 5: because every play crossed his desk for censorship, so she 147 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 5: would have met the playwrights, she would have met the actors, 148 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 5: she would have met the producers, the theater owners, all 149 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 5: those people for the ten years she was with him. 150 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 5: Then she gets pregnant, so she's twenty three years old. 151 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 5: She cannot be a pregnant mistress when he's already married, 152 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 5: so he marries her off to her wastrel of a 153 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 5: cousin who winds up blowing through all the money that 154 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 5: he gives her to be comfortable. 155 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 4: And she's now twenty three years old. 156 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 5: She's got a husband she hates, she has a kid 157 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 5: she has to support, and she has no idea how 158 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 5: to do that, and then we don't know anything about 159 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 5: Amelia for years, for decades, until sixteen eleven, when she's 160 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 5: in her late forties, and suddenly she is the first 161 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 5: woman to publish a book of poetry in England, which 162 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 5: in and of itself is a reason you should know 163 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 5: her name right. But you know, there's this time period 164 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 5: between the two, like decades. People don't show up in 165 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 5: their mid forties and publish a book of poetry like 166 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 5: you know, especially when women weren't doing that, which tells 167 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 5: me she was writing before that, she just may not 168 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 5: have been using her name. And in terms of Shakespeare. 169 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 4: You know same thing. 170 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 5: We know a lot of facts about Shakespeare. We know 171 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 5: that he was a businessman, a producer. We know he 172 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 5: was an actor. We know that he evaded taxes twice. 173 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 5: We know that he had multiple restraining orders from his 174 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 5: colleagues that he worked with. We know that when there 175 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 5: was a famine he hoarded grain and he jacked up 176 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 5: the price for all his neighbors. He was a lovely individual. 177 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 5: He also never left the country. He was not educated 178 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 5: at a university. He was self educated. But when he 179 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 5: died he didn't own a single book. He didn't bequeath 180 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 5: a book to anybody when he died. He was not 181 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 5: buried in Poet's Corner at Westminster like all the other writers, 182 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 5: even many you've never heard of who were in this 183 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 5: famous when he died, not a single other playwright said 184 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,679 Speaker 5: anything about the loss of such a great talent, although 185 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 5: by far he was the best known quote playwright of 186 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 5: the time, you know. So what we know about him 187 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 5: legally and historically is that he was a businessman, not 188 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 5: that he was a writer. There is no proof that 189 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 5: he wrote anything with his name attached to it. And 190 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 5: it's my belief that people used his name and paid 191 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 5: him for the use of it so he could make 192 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 5: a quick book, and they were the ones writing under 193 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 5: his name. And I think Amelia is one of several 194 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 5: people who was doing that. 195 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: Oh interesting, Okay, but here's my question. 196 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 3: If that's all true, right, and he wasn't credited as 197 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 3: being a writer, even if other people were using his name, 198 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 3: he would still have been recognized when he died as 199 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 3: a writer because those plays were all produced under his 200 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 3: name as written by Shakespeare in real time. 201 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 5: Unless it was kind of like an inside joke in 202 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 5: the theater world. 203 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 4: Like an open secret, which I actually think it was. 204 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 5: And there's there's actually a scene in the book where 205 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 5: I write about the First Folio, which everyone knows Shakespeare's 206 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 5: first folio, right. It's a collection of like thirty odd 207 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 5: plays that he allegedly wrote by himself while he had 208 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 5: two full time jobs. And he was also allegedly the 209 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 5: only playwright of the time who didn't collaborate. 210 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 4: But okay, whatever, So he has this folio. 211 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 5: After he's dead, all these plays are brought together, and 212 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 5: they're brought together by his nemesis, Ben Johnson. Okay, Ben 213 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 5: Johnson and Shakespeare hated each other, and Ben Johnson was 214 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 5: the first guy to take all of his plays and 215 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 5: instead of looking at them as kind of pulp fiction, saying, 216 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 5: oh no, this is the four of my work. So 217 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 5: all of a sudden, Shakespeare's dead and someone's collecting his plays, 218 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 5: and his nemesis, Ben Johnson is the one who writes 219 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 5: all of the preparatory material, saying you know, all these 220 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 5: lovely things about Shakespeare's as a playwright. But if you 221 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 5: read between the lines of what Ben Johnson actually wrote, 222 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 5: he said it has things like don't look on the 223 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 5: face of this playwright, look at his words, and there's 224 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,479 Speaker 5: this whole conspiracy theory about the actual etching of Shakespeare 225 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 5: that everybody knows. It's the picture you're thinking of when 226 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 5: you think of Shakespeare that was on the first folio, 227 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 5: and how in it it looks like he has two 228 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 5: left arms in other words, no quote right arm right, 229 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 5: and there's a line around his face that looks like 230 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 5: he's wearing a mask. And there are all these people 231 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 5: who've used that to say, oh, see, that's proof that 232 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 5: that everyone was kind of in on this joke, and 233 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 5: Ben Johnson was leaving us a bunch of puzzles and clues, 234 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 5: thinking everyone in the future is going to figure this out. 235 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 5: But apparently we missed the punchline. 236 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 2: Well. 237 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 6: And I can't remember if this was in the book 238 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 6: or in some an interview that I read with you, 239 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 6: but you had mentioned at some point that Shakespeare as 240 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 6: we know it, traditionally a lot of times it was hyphenated, 241 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 6: and that back then was known to be like this 242 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 6: is an imaginary character, or this is you know, sort 243 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 6: of a pseudonym. 244 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's also something that people bring up that's to 245 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 5: me more hypothetical, like, oh, it's not a real name. 246 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 5: I think what's more interesting is to look at the 247 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 5: fact that, like Shakespeare didn't speak all these other languages, right, 248 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 5: because he wasn't educated at university. He didn't go to 249 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 5: Cambridge or Oxford or whatever. But some of the source 250 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 5: material for the stories that he used for the plays 251 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 5: was only available in ancient Latin, Ancient Greek, Italian, French. 252 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 5: He didn't speak those languages, and it wasn't like people 253 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 5: were going around telling all these stories all the time, 254 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 5: and they weren't translated yet. 255 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 4: So how does he know this stuff? You know? 256 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,719 Speaker 5: How does he know about where the Queen of Denmark's 257 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 5: closets are in her bedchamber when he's never been to Denmark? 258 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 5: How does he know that a certain type of tree 259 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 5: grows on the north bank of a river in Italy? 260 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 5: You know, to me, this is all really interesting. And 261 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 5: why especially this is a good one. Why does Shakespeare 262 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 5: all of a sudden stop writing historical plays about kings 263 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 5: and start writing Italian wedding comedies. 264 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 4: That feels like an odd choice. 265 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: It's all very valid. 266 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 3: It's also fascinating, you know, because I've only really heard 267 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 3: about all of that kind of conjecture about Shakespeare, but 268 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: I've never I mean, I would say your book is 269 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 3: the biggest dive I've taken into it because I'm not 270 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 3: a barnologist someone who is obsessed with Shakespeare and all 271 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,599 Speaker 3: of that. And I don't even know the reference of 272 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 3: the first folio that you're making. That's how uneducated I 273 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 3: am on this topic. First, I need you to answer 274 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 3: the editorial question, how does one from an editorial standpoint, 275 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 3: combine historical real figures with fictional characters, like why are 276 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 3: the rules around that? 277 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: As a writer, well, I. 278 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 5: Mean I write fiction, so there are no rules, which 279 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 5: is holy. You have it much harder because you're writing nonfiction. 280 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 5: But for me, I can do anything that I want, and. 281 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 3: So even when you're using a real life person, you 282 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 3: can say that they absolutely. 283 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 6: Oh she's been that a while Amelia was home. 284 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, I've done. 285 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: If there's a statute of limitations. 286 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 5: You should also know, Chelsea, I've never written about you, 287 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 5: so you can sleep tonight. 288 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: But don't worry. I've done enough of that. 289 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 5: I made sure that when I finished the book, I 290 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 5: the actual references, the actual truth, and the places that 291 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 5: I departed from the truth, because I did want people 292 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 5: to know what was real and what was was not real. 293 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 5: I think it's really important too to say that even 294 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 5: if you haven't been a Shakespeare scholar, I'm going to 295 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 5: give you enough knowledge to get through this book and 296 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 5: know what you need to know. You don't need to 297 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 5: come into this having read any of Shakespeare's plays. 298 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: Really, no, you don't. 299 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 2: You don't. 300 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: I speak from experience. This is a very juicy book. 301 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 3: I love it, and I love the toggling back and 302 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 3: forth from the present day to a different time, you know. 303 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 3: I love like having a period piece setting. And then 304 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 3: these two characters, these two main protagonists that are mimicking 305 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 3: each other in their lives in a way. And I 306 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 3: do want to talk about this theme of the book 307 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 3: because this really hit me hard, probably because I'm always 308 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 3: paranoida just about ending up. 309 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: Like you know, on the street or something. 310 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 3: I mean, the contrast from her life of getting being 311 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 3: this guy's mistress and treating her with respect and adjuration. 312 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: This man truly adored her, and the way that this 313 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 3: is written and she, you know, she gets carted off 314 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 3: and she's sold to some guy. She doesn't know where 315 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 3: she's going, and she ends up in one of probably 316 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 3: the best circumstances short of actually falling in love with 317 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 3: your captor. You know, this guy allowed her to read 318 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 3: his plays, This guy who ran all the theaters in London, 319 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 3: he allowed her to read her plays. He loved hearing 320 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 3: her poetry. He wanted her to flourish, and he admired her, 321 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 3: and she had a beautiful life with him until the 322 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 3: I don't want to give anything away in this book, 323 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 3: but until her circumstances change, and then there's a shift 324 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 3: that is a really fucking hard pill to swallow. Yeah, 325 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: as a reader, it was so painful to even read. 326 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 3: You know, what her next situation entailed and where she 327 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 3: went and then that dynamic, and it made me think 328 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 3: about as a writer, when you're writing, especially as someone 329 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 3: who's written as many books as you have, what is 330 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 3: the methodology there? Like how do you think about those 331 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 3: turns of events? Like do you want to make them 332 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 3: as drastically different as like the contrast so stark? 333 00:14:58,800 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: Is that your intention? 334 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 5: I think that the pitfall I didn't want to hit 335 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 5: in this book because Amelia does suffer so many tragic 336 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 5: moments in her life. I didn't want you to be like, 337 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 5: oh my god, not again, you know, Like I didn't 338 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 5: want it to feel overwhelming, and part of being able 339 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 5: to combat that comes again from that diary from that 340 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 5: astrologer doctor. You know, when she talked about her life 341 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 5: with the Lord Chamberlain, with this guy who is so 342 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 5: wealthy and who was the theater head of all of England. 343 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 4: Basically she was so. 344 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 5: Proud of what she achieved. Then she talks about how 345 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 5: all kinds of men would give her jewels and would 346 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 5: look at her and noticed what she looked like. And 347 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 5: you could tell that even though she wound up in 348 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 5: a very poor, different circumstance than she was for those 349 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 5: ten years, she was like, hey, I was someone. Don't 350 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 5: forget if I was someone. And it was hearing that 351 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 5: fire in her that made me want to create her 352 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 5: as you know, really a spitfire, someone who keeps on 353 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 5: getting up every time she's knocked down. Interestingly, you talk 354 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 5: about how kind the Lord Chamberlain was to her. We 355 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 5: don't know anything about that relationship. We know that she 356 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 5: from what she says in these diaries that are written down, 357 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 5: that he kept her well and that she seemed to 358 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 5: be comfortable with him, but we don't know anything else 359 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 5: about it. And in my opinion, you know, I was 360 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 5: thinking Okay, here's someone who is thirteen years old winds 361 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 5: up in this you know, artificial relationship with a fifty 362 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 5: six year old man where she's literally being groomed to 363 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 5: be his court is in. And I didn't want again 364 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 5: there to be a terrible time for Amelia during those 365 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 5: ten years, because it seemed like she enjoyed it, And 366 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 5: I thought, I don't really see her falling head over 367 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 5: heels with this guy, but I do see her finding 368 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 5: a friendship there. And you know, that was why I 369 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 5: chose to characterize and write Lord Hunston the Lord Chamberlain 370 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 5: the way that I did. So sometimes it means taking 371 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 5: a clue out of history and just sort of spinning 372 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 5: it and extrapolating it to create the character around it. 373 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: I mean, what a luxury are you? Just like, take 374 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: what you like and discard what you don't. You know that? 375 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that is the definition and essence of 376 00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 3: being a writer. 377 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 5: Okay, but wait, can I tell you the freakiest thing 378 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 5: that happened to me when I was writing this book 379 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 5: one of them way is that I wanted to combat 380 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 5: again all the tragedy in Amelia's life was I thought 381 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 5: this woman deserved a little happiness, and so I wanted 382 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 5: to give her a love affair with a man she 383 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 5: truly loved. And there's this historical fact when Amelia's in 384 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 5: her sixties, she goes to court. She represents herself in court, 385 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 5: which is crazy, and she's fighting her brother in law 386 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 5: after her husband's death. She was basically supposed to get 387 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 5: money from a patent that hewned, and her brother in 388 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 5: law stole it all. At the end of this trial, 389 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 5: out of nowhere, the Earl of Southampton comes swaning into 390 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 5: the court room and he goes, hey, this isn't my court, 391 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 5: but if it was, I'd find in favor of her. Now, 392 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 5: this would never happen. You would just not see a 393 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 5: noble intervene in some commoner's life, right, And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, 394 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 5: why did this guy come out of nowhere to talk 395 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 5: to Amelia? And then I realized, you know, during those 396 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 5: ten years that she was living with the Lord Chamberlain, 397 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 5: court was a pretty small group of courtiers and ladies nobles. 398 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 5: She would have known Southampton, and he was about three 399 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 5: and a half years younger than she was. He was 400 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 5: considered to be quite a hotty of the time. So 401 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 5: I'm like, great, I'm going to have them get it on. 402 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 5: So I'm writing all this great Elizabethan six, you know, 403 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 5: and I was really enjoying the relationship I created for them, 404 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 5: which was like this absolute doomed love affair, because there 405 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 5: was no world in which the Earl of Southampton was 406 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 5: ever going to wind up, you know, completely married to 407 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 5: some commoner like Amelia. Anyway, I write the whole thing. 408 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 5: I finished the book and I go to the Victorian 409 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 5: Albert Museum in England because I've been invited to hold 410 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 5: and see the miniature of Amelia that exists. So I 411 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 5: go to the archives. The archives take it out. I'm 412 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 5: holding her in my hands, which was just amazing, but 413 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 5: my eye keeps getting drawn to the box that had 414 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 5: all these miniatures in it, and the one that was 415 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 5: right next to her, and it's a man with long, 416 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 5: curly red hair looked a lot like mine. And I 417 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 5: just kept staring at it, and I said to the archive, 418 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 5: is who is that? And they said, oh, well, we 419 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 5: don't know. That's an unknown man. And I said, can 420 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 5: you tell me what was painted? So they look it 421 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 5: up and it's about the exact same time as the 422 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 5: Amelia miniature, and I pull up on my phone an 423 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 5: accredited painting of the Earl of Southampton which looks exactly 424 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 5: like that, and I said, I think maybe it's him, 425 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 5: and they start looking at it and they realize we 426 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 5: do a deep dive. The miniature that I've pulled up 427 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 5: was painted four years later by the same artist. Even 428 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 5: more interestingly, in that unknown man miniature, the man is 429 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 5: on a black background instead of a traditional blue. 430 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 4: His hand is. 431 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 5: Covering his heart, and it's painted on the three of 432 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 5: hearts a playing card, which in early you know Elizabethan 433 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 5: tarot called cardamancy, kind of signified a soulmate, someone you 434 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 5: love desperately but would never wind up with. All of 435 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 5: those things would have been the decision of the person 436 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 5: sitting for the portrait. 437 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 4: And after doing deep. 438 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 5: Research, the archivists have written me back and they're like, yeah, 439 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 5: we think this actually could be Southampton. So for the 440 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 5: past couple hundred years, the two of them have been 441 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 5: nestled next to each other in a. 442 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 4: Box at the Victoria and Albert Museum. 443 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 5: So maybe sometimes you write stuff and it becomes history. 444 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 3: I don't know, this is turning into an episode of murder. 445 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,479 Speaker 3: She wrote, what about her marrying her cousin. Is that 446 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 3: true too? 447 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: Did that happen historically, Yeah, that is historically true. 448 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 4: His name was Alfonse O. Lanner. He was a jerk. 449 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 5: He did go through all of her money. He wanted 450 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 5: to be a night, so he kept on. He kept 451 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 5: trying multiple things, but he basically just blew through her cash. 452 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 5: And he did go off to try to be a knight. 453 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 5: He did wind up, ironically on a mission that Southampton 454 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 5: was leading, a naval mission on behalf of the queen. 455 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 5: He never became a knight, and she could not stand him. 456 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 5: I mean, that's all we know is that he did 457 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 5: not treat her well and she was not happy with him, 458 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 5: and she did not want the marriage. 459 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 3: It's also fascinating, and you know what, it's so nice 460 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 3: to put it in modern terms, in the way that 461 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,719 Speaker 3: you write and the way that this book is. 462 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: Like our listeners are. 463 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 3: They love books and they love reading, and they're going 464 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: to love this book because it's I love that. 465 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: You are learning through fiction. 466 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 3: You know there is history involved here, and that you're 467 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 3: learning a lot about Shakespeare. That is for someone I 468 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 3: don't know a lot about Shakespeare, but I would like 469 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 3: to know more and this is just fascinating. 470 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: It's just so well done. 471 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 4: Oh, thank you. I think it's also for me. 472 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 5: It was really important to have the modern element in 473 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 5: the book as well, to have the story of her 474 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 5: descendant trying to get this play mounted, you know, about 475 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 5: her ancestor, because as someone who for the past ten 476 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 5: years has been fortunate enough to work in the world 477 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 5: of theater, it's a very male dominated profession, and the 478 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 5: gatekeepers are a bunch of old white men who like 479 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 5: to see stories that reflect their own experience on a stage. 480 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 4: And that's cyclical. 481 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 5: You know, if you only see a certain kind of 482 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 5: story on a stage, you start to think maybe that's 483 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 5: the only one that should be worth telling. 484 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 4: Everything that Melina is. 485 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 5: Told about her fictional play by any other name, that 486 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 5: it's too emotional, that it's too small, that nobody would 487 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 5: want to see the story of a woman or of 488 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 5: a young girl coming of age. Those are all verbatim 489 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,479 Speaker 5: things that I was told when I was working on 490 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 5: my first show. 491 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 6: Jeez, And now you're adapting the book Thief, right, Yeah, 492 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 6: I am so exciting. 493 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 5: Yeah, the same team that was working with me on 494 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 5: that show, the original show. Between the lines, we've adapted 495 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 5: the book Thief and it's going to the West End 496 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 5: in the fall of twenty twenty five. 497 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: Oh, how cool is that? That's so awesome? 498 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 3: Does what's your experience been like as a female author? 499 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: How's that been? 500 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 4: So? 501 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 5: It's really interesting because I think the reason that by 502 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 5: any other name is so personal to me and really 503 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 5: is the book of my heart, is that I have 504 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 5: written so many controversial things, but I am rarely like 505 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 5: the characters. 506 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 4: That I write. 507 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 5: However, this is a book about what it means to 508 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 5: be a female storyteller, and that is exactly who I am. 509 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 5: And let me tell you what it is to be 510 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 5: a female storyteller. You sit down on a plane and 511 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 5: someone says what do you do? And you say, I'm 512 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 5: a writer. They look at you, see you're a woman 513 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 5: and they say, oh, do you write romance? And I 514 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 5: say no, do you write children's books? 515 00:22:59,000 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 4: No? 516 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 5: Oh, you must write women's fiction. Those are only the 517 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 5: three categories that women ever write. Apparently, what is even 518 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 5: women's fiction? Why is there no men's fiction? Why do 519 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 5: they just get to be fiction? 520 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 4: You know? 521 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 5: So there's still this sense that female writers are pigeonholed 522 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 5: in a way that men never are. If you get 523 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 5: a man who writes a really great book about family 524 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 5: and relationships, they are hailed as the great American author, 525 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 5: as if it is incongruous to have both a heart 526 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 5: and a penis right, And I don't think that's mutually exclusive, 527 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 5: you know, And I think that because of that, women 528 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 5: still feel pigeonholed as writers, even though there are plenty 529 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 5: of women on the bestseller list. The place where we 530 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 5: start to see gender discrimination in publishing is in reviews. 531 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 5: Fewer women are reviewed, and there are fewer female reviewers. 532 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 5: And at the very very top echelons of publishing, although 533 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 5: we see a lot of female editors, who runs these 534 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 5: publishing companies, it's usually a man. 535 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Okay. 536 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 3: On that, We're going to take a break and we 537 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 3: will be right back with Jodi Pico this week. 538 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 6: Write in if you have questions about fitness. It could 539 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 6: be something specific you're dealing with in your fitness routine, 540 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 6: how to maintain your motivation or get started with a 541 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 6: new routine, or questions you have on a deeper level 542 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 6: about your physical health and fitness. Right into Dear Chelsea 543 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 6: Podcast at gmail dot com. 544 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 3: Okay, we're back with author Jody Pico. Okay, Jody, we're 545 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 3: gonna give out some advice today. Okay, are you ready? 546 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 4: I love it? 547 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 6: Okay, Well, Jody, I know you write about a lot 548 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 6: of controversial topics, so we have some controversial topics in 549 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 6: our advice portion today. 550 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: Great, but we're starting with a fun one. 551 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 6: Sam is writing in and says, Dear Chelsea, I'm a 552 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 6: forty nine year old divorced woman, and I'm looking ahead 553 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 6: as my last kid is headed off to college in 554 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 6: a few years. Since my divorce, I've discovered how much 555 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 6: I need and crave alone time. I didn't get much 556 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 6: of it as a single parent, but as I've gotten older, 557 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 6: I love it. I consider myself an extroverted, introvert who 558 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 6: really needs solitude to recharge. I've often dreamt that once 559 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 6: my last kid leaves the nest, I would move out 560 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 6: somewhere on the East Coast, work remotely for my job, 561 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 6: and just enjoy peacefulness and calm in a small seaside town. 562 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 6: I've started opening up about this to friends and family, 563 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 6: who have mostly thought I was kidding, but deep down 564 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 6: I really want this to be the trajectory for this 565 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 6: next phase of life. 566 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: I have a great network where I live. 567 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 6: All my family is here. 568 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: We're a tight group. 569 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 6: I'm getting some pushback, in particular from my sister, who 570 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 6: cannot fathom that I would move away, saying that I 571 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 6: should be preparing myself to be the doting grandmother around 572 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 6: the corner. I guess I'm just looking for either some 573 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 6: validation that I'm not crazy or a two y four 574 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 6: across the head to knock some reality into me that 575 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 6: just because my kids leave the house doesn't mean I 576 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 6: should move away on some weird eat prey love journey. 577 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: But should I Sam Wow? 578 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 5: So I mean, I am a new grandma, and let 579 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 5: me tell you, it's the best thing ever. But I 580 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 5: don't live around the corner for my grandkids, so everything 581 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 5: is a journey for me if I see them, or 582 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 5: it's a journey for them to see me. And it 583 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 5: feels to me from the letter you just read that honestly, 584 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 5: she's already kind of made up her mind. 585 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 4: She wants to go. 586 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 5: And I don't think there's anything wrong with a mom 587 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 5: who has been in the wings watching her kids grow 588 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 5: up suddenly stepping out to be the focus of the limelight. 589 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 5: I think if she is at all worried about making 590 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 5: such a radical move. Go rent an airbnb for a 591 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 5: few months and rent out your own house and see 592 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 5: how it feels, and then if it works, then look 593 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 5: for something more permanent. But it sounds to me like 594 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 5: she's kind of already made up her mind. 595 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of our callers are right in or 596 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 3: call in when they've made up their mind and they 597 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 3: need another person to go Yep, you're doing the right thing. 598 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 3: And I would say, as someone at the same exact 599 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 3: age who did not have to raise children and did 600 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 3: not have to put my time and energy into someone, 601 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 3: if you have a calling to spend time alone and 602 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 3: you have a desire to do that, that means you 603 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 3: have been deprived of that, and that you need to 604 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,479 Speaker 3: go and run towards yourself with open arms. When we 605 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 3: have these feelings and it's just someone's advice that is 606 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 3: holding you back, that's not valid. Like if someone's telling 607 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 3: you no, you shouldn't be doing that. You have every 608 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 3: right to pursue your dreams and you haven't pursued them yet. 609 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 3: And so like Jody what you're saying, you're a forty 610 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 3: nine year old new grandmother, you've also pursued your dreams 611 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 3: during all of this, right, you've been able. 612 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: To pursue who you want to be. 613 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 5: I'm assuming yeah, absolutely, or I wouldn't be here today. 614 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 5: But I also had an amazing support network, and I 615 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 5: love that. You might think I'm forty nine, but I'm 616 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 5: fifty eight. 617 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 3: Right, Well, but I'm saying yes, okay, yeah, well we're 618 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 3: all forty nine for this purpose of this conversation. But yes, 619 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 3: I think as women, I can't stress enough or try 620 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 3: to help you enough to make the decision to do 621 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 3: what you want to do how you want to do it. 622 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 3: You are free now of responsibility. There's no one saying 623 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 3: having a grandchild or grand baby any minute, and then 624 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 3: that's a break when you get to it. And and 625 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 3: Jody's advice about getting something temporarily, it's great advice. I mean, 626 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 3: go try it out that way. If you find a 627 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 3: place and you're like, oh, I don't love this section 628 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 3: of town or this area, you can pick up and 629 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 3: move to another place and try it out there until 630 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 3: you find a place that does fit and that doesn't. 631 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 3: But like, your happiness is the most important thing, Like 632 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 3: you are in charge of it and no one else 633 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 3: is bringing you the happiness. 634 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 6: Yeah, Like she's got a vision for her life. Follow 635 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 6: that vision, and of course when you do have grandkids, 636 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 6: they're gonna love coming and seeing Granny in the seaside down. 637 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: M M right, yeah, yeah. 638 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 5: I also think I think that the saddest thing in 639 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 5: the world is when you get to the end of 640 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 5: your life and you think, what if I had done that? 641 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 5: You know, I mean, to me, that would be the 642 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 5: greatest loss. And it's okay to fail because that means 643 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 5: you were brave enough to try. 644 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 3: But also, in your book, like this woman is not 645 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 3: given any choices along the way, she is not given 646 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 3: any choices. We live in a time where we have 647 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,719 Speaker 3: the ability to make a choice for ourselves. In the 648 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 3: current time we are living in. You were allowed to 649 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 3: go and do that, so go fucking do it. 650 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 6: Sam, Keep us posted when you find your airbnb on 651 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 6: the sea side, send us a picture, yes, Jony. 652 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: Before we move on, I have to tell you this. 653 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 6: I one of my favorite memories of my father, whose 654 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,719 Speaker 6: birthday it is today, not understanding what it's like to 655 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 6: live with a teenage girl. I was reading My Sister's 656 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 6: Keeper many years. 657 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: Ago when I was one of my favorite books of 658 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: all time. 659 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 6: So good, gosh, thank you and one of the best 660 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 6: endings of all time. And I got to the end, 661 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 6: I turned the final page. I'm weeping, sobbing uncontrollably. My 662 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 6: dad hears this from the other room, comes out from 663 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 6: his office and is like, oh my god, what's going on? 664 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 6: Who died? Like a total panic, and I was like, 665 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 6: couldn't breathe. I'm just like pointing at the book like no, 666 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 6: it's just it's this. He was so pissed at me. 667 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 6: He's just like, I truly thought that someone in our 668 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 6: life had died, but he gave me that one of 669 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 6: those wonderful memories. 670 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 3: Because of that, I know, It's like, man, have never 671 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 3: cried reading a book? Ookay, I guess I know. 672 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: It's like, what do. 673 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 3: You notice, Jodie when you're on planes that you cry 674 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 3: more when you're reading a book. 675 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 4: Oh yeah. 676 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 5: So it's funny because when I was adapting the book Thief, 677 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 5: I was writing part of the ending and I was 678 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 5: crying really really, really hard, and like the flight attendant 679 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 5: came over and wanted to make sure I was okay. 680 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 5: And my co librettist when he was doing his part 681 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 5: of the ending, the flight attendant came over and gave 682 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 5: him wine because we were just a wreck, you know. 683 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 4: Writing this on the plane, so yeah, I cry all 684 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 4: the time when I write. 685 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 3: There's something about being in the altitude that makes you 686 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 3: like I can watch something on a plane that I 687 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 3: would not cry at in real life, and I'll be crying. 688 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: But anyway. 689 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 4: Yeah. 690 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 6: Well, our next question comes from Lynette. She is twenty seven. 691 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 6: She says, you're Chelsea. I would love to get your 692 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 6: opinion on how to ease my new amazing man into 693 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 6: my life, which includes my drug addicted dad and my 694 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 6: currently imprisoned fellon mother. I am my little sister's only 695 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 6: parent practically, she lives with me, and my new boyfriend 696 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 6: knows that I've been the only stable mother figure for her, 697 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 6: but he hasn't met her yet and really has no 698 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 6: idea how bad my parents' situation is. My fear is 699 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 6: that it will all be too much for him, as 700 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 6: it has been for other partners in the past. I'm 701 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 6: stressed and scared and don't know how to ease someone 702 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 6: into a life with someone like me with a broken family. 703 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 6: Any advice would be in the world to me. Thank 704 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 6: you so much, Lynette, and she's joining us here. 705 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: Hi, Lynette, Hilanette. Hello, Hi, Hi, this is Jodi Pico, 706 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: our special guest today. 707 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 4: It's so nice to meet you. 708 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: So what does your boyfriend know? 709 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 2: So at this point, he knows about my mom being 710 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 2: in prison, and I've kind of shared how my dad 711 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 2: smokes weed and has always done that and you know, 712 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: back in the day, was like a little bit of 713 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 2: a drug dealer. But he doesn't know that he's homeless 714 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 2: and like really you know, a drug addict when it 715 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 2: comes to like meth. And we've had a lot of disputes, 716 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 2: me and him, my dad, and he still struggles with it, 717 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 2: and he's still really involved in like my little sister's life, 718 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 2: and you know, he comes around here and there, and 719 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: you know, holidays are coming up, so he's probably going 720 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: to meet him at some point. And sorry, and I 721 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 2: just don't know how to say it. I feel like 722 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 2: I'm withholding the truth almost from him really because when 723 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 2: he meets him, it's it's pretty obvious, like family has 724 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 2: expressed how he doesn't look well and like where is 725 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 2: he staying, And he'll swing by just to like, you know, 726 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 2: see my sister and me. But I really don't want 727 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 2: a relationship with my dad. I've you know. Like I said, 728 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 2: I've had spats with him, and I don't know, it's 729 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: just hard. My little sister says the same thing, like 730 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 2: he's just so obviously crazy and doesn't want to change, 731 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 2: doesn't want help, Like he hasn't had a job for 732 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 2: like over a year, and he talks about getting a 733 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 2: job and helping but doesn't really And the real thing 734 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: we need him to do is he has he's working 735 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 2: on my little sister's car. She's about to get license. 736 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 2: She really needs to have a car. And that's really 737 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 2: why we keep the contact, is to just get him 738 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 2: to at least do that, fix the car, bring it 739 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 2: for her like he promised he'd do. But at this point, 740 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 2: it's like you've had over a year to do it, 741 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 2: and here we are, you know, and this boyfriend's so great, 742 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 2: like he helps us so much, you know, and I 743 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 2: just feel so guilty that I haven't been totally honest. 744 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: And I'm afraid that the longer I wait, you know, 745 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: the more distrust he's going to build with me, you know. 746 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: And I don't think he's not going to accept it. 747 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 2: But it's just a hard conversation to have, you know, 748 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 2: Like even now talking about it is making me super anxious, 749 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 2: you know, because it's. 750 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 3: Oh my god, you've had to bear so much responsibility 751 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 3: for your family. 752 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: You're such an amazing sister. 753 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 2: Thank you, Chelsea. You are you know, I think anybody 754 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: would do what I'm doing. But it's just hard because 755 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 2: he's such a gas lighter and he's just always got 756 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 2: an excuse for everything, for why he is the way 757 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: he is, And even like talking about the drugs, he's like, oh, well, 758 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 2: it's just crystal, and I'm like, it's not just crystals. 759 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 2: It's a hard drug. Like why don't you see how 760 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 2: it's broken our family, How you shouldn't how you should 761 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 2: look for help, Like, you know, my mom is in 762 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 2: prison from a lot of issues with alcohol. You know, 763 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 2: her second DUI, like her first one was child endangerment 764 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 2: for having a little sister in the car. And they're 765 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,879 Speaker 2: just both so crazy and they make each other more 766 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 2: crazy and they enable each other. And it's like he's 767 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 2: always told me like I'm there for you, I'll always 768 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 2: be here for you, like whatever you need. But it's 769 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 2: like he really doesn't know just how bad it is. 770 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 2: You know, We've only been dating seriously for like a month, 771 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 2: so it. 772 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 3: Sounds like you really need to set some boundaries with 773 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 3: your parents. I don't know what the benefit is of 774 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 3: having your father remain in your life in the condition 775 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 3: he's in. I don't think that's going to have a 776 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 3: good impact on your little sister. And it's definitely just 777 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 3: adding a level of stress to your life. You already 778 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 3: have enough that you're dealing with, don't you agree, Jodie? 779 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 4: Absolutely? Absolutely. 780 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 5: And I also want to know, Lynnette, what was his response, 781 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 5: your boyfriend's response when you did tell him like that 782 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 5: your mom was in prison and stuff. 783 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 4: What did you say to you? 784 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 2: He was really supportive, you know, he he kind of 785 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 2: said the same thing, like I don't know how you're 786 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 2: managing everything that you are, Like, I'm here for you. 787 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 2: I can only imagine how hard it is. I've always 788 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 2: been really involved, like my parents have always been troubled, 789 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 2: and it's just pushed me away and wanted to push 790 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 2: me to work harder and be better. And it makes 791 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 2: me build that spite too, because it's like I've done 792 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 2: it all. 793 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: For myself, And what about your little sister. 794 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 2: She at one point was kind of like an empathizer, 795 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 2: and she like, my dad is the cool guy. And 796 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 2: he's always the lax parent, and so she would kind 797 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 2: of talk to me and be like, don't be so 798 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 2: hard on him, and like, well, he's trying. And now 799 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,439 Speaker 2: that she's I think opened her eyes and a little 800 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 2: bit older and realizes just how bad it is, she 801 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 2: is getting kind of like a distaste for him, and 802 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 2: it just sucks that this is our dad. And I'm like, 803 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 2: I know, and you know, that's heartbreaking for her to 804 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 2: be so young, because I had it a little later, 805 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 2: like I was like in college when I really got 806 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 2: to open my eyes to it all. And here she is, 807 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 2: like sixteen barely and having to deal with that and 808 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 2: then also manage the fact that we have to balance 809 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 2: this relationship so he will just own up to what 810 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 2: he said he'll do for us, and it's hard. She's 811 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 2: so strong and so mature and she really does handle 812 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 2: it well, but I know it's heartbreaking for her. 813 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, what do you think about setting some boundaries? 814 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 3: Can you set boundaries and tell him that he's not 815 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 3: welcome to come by the house. I don't think this 816 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 3: car fucking Matt Like, you can't depend on him for 817 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 3: fixing the car. He's unreliable and he's smoking crystal math. 818 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 3: It's a rap on him until he gets his shit 819 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 3: together as far as responsibilities go. 820 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 2: I know, I know. And the thing is like, she 821 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 2: really does need it, and you know we could, I 822 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 2: could try and do without it, but we do need 823 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 2: the help. And he says it's a simple fix, so 824 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 2: it should happen sooner than later. But I've already started, 825 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 2: Like Chelsea, I was paying his phone bill for the 826 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 2: last year, so recently I told him. I was like, Dad, 827 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 2: I can't do this anymore, Like this added expense is 828 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 2: kind of crazy for me. Like if you can get 829 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 2: your own phone, that would really help, you know, Like, 830 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 2: and so he's like, I know, I'll do it, but 831 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 2: by the end of the month, like I'll just get 832 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 2: a Walmart phone and do it that way so you 833 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 2: don't have to pay for it. And I feel bad, 834 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 2: you know, all my aunts everybody tells me too, like 835 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: you need to stop paying his phone bill, like he's 836 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 2: not together. 837 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, And I think the types of boundaries that Chelsea 838 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 6: is talking about are things like I'll pay it to 839 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 6: the end of the month, and then at the end 840 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 6: of the month, you shut the phone off, you know, 841 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 6: whether or not he's gotten one for himself. You need 842 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 6: to be focusing on protecting yourself, your energy, and your sister. 843 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 6: And right now your dad is not a safe person 844 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 6: to be around either one of you. I think you're 845 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 6: right also about the car situation. 846 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 3: I mean, if it's such an easy fix, someone else 847 00:37:58,160 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 3: can do it, you know what I mean. It's almost 848 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 3: like a having anything that you need from him is 849 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 3: not a good dynamic between somebody who is a drug addict. 850 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 3: You don't want to have anything from him, and you 851 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 3: don't want him to come by, like you have to 852 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 3: set a boundary before you even, you know, broach this 853 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 3: with your boyfriend. I would say, like, listen, the more honest, 854 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,399 Speaker 3: the better. In every situation, I prefer honesty. I mean, yes, 855 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 3: it's a month long relationship, it's very new, it is 856 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 3: a lot of information, but you're so sweet and loving 857 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 3: like that. You don't have bad vibes. You're not trying 858 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 3: to pull the wool over someone's eyes. And I'm sure 859 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 3: he sees that in you, you know, And I think 860 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 3: you should be honest and be honest about why you've 861 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 3: kept it from him. And I wonder if maybe he'll 862 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 3: surprise you with some sort of ideas and solutions about 863 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 3: boundaries too, because you're raising your sister because your father 864 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,359 Speaker 3: and mother can't do it, there's no reason you should be. 865 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: Helping them in any way. You already have enough to 866 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 1: deal with. 867 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, and right now I want you to focus on 868 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 6: building your support sys. So, whether that's like relying on 869 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 6: your aunties, cultivating this relationship with your boyfriend and with 870 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 6: your sister, reach out to people who are in your 871 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 6: circle already, who you know you can rely on and trust. 872 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 6: Work on cultivating your support network because your dad is 873 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 6: not part of it. He just can't be part of 874 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 6: it anymore. 875 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 3: And setting a boundary with people like that is an 876 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 3: act of love. That doesn't mean you don't love him, 877 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 3: even if he says you don't love me, This is terrible. 878 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: How you could you do this? 879 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 3: You have to know coming from me, that that is 880 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 3: an act of love. That's an act of love on 881 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 3: behalf of your father and your sister and yourself. By 882 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 3: saying no, we don't want you around here in the 883 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,280 Speaker 3: shape you're in. We don't want to see this anymore, 884 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 3: you know, And that's about our respecting yourself and your sister. 885 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, it's what I need to do to 886 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 2: protect her and keep her, you know, on the right path, 887 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 2: and you know, push him to realize, like there's no excuse, 888 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 2: it is what it is, and you're right, I need 889 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 2: to establish a boundary. 890 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:00,439 Speaker 7: Really. 891 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 5: I think also you've been such a role model for 892 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 5: your sister and if she's kind of at this waffling 893 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 5: stage where she is seeing do I have responsibility to 894 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 5: my dad or can I make that break? Seeing you 895 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 5: being able to set those hard boundaries I think is 896 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 5: going to be really helpful to her. 897 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, you're right, Thank you, that's so true. 898 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 6: I want you to know too that you are not alone. 899 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 6: There are a lot of people who have gone through 900 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 6: similar situations. So I'm going to help you look for 901 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 6: like maybe an alan on which is for families of 902 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 6: people who have alcohol and drug addiction, or you know, 903 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 6: some kind of therapy in your area that will be 904 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 6: low cost or free and that you can go in 905 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 6: and keep building that support system. 906 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: Okay, thank you so much. 907 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,240 Speaker 3: And I also just before you go, like I really 908 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 3: want you to recognize what an incredible thing you've done 909 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 3: and like what are you are continuing to do? There 910 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 3: is so much value in what you've provided for your sister, 911 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 3: which is stability, love and comfort like there there is 912 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 3: no number you can put on that and the impact 913 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,240 Speaker 3: you're having on her life and I'm sure the impact 914 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:07,760 Speaker 3: on you she's having on your life. 915 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: And just because. 916 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 3: Everybody would probably do that, does it mean that it's 917 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 3: without the value that you have brought to the situation. 918 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 3: And that alone is going to give you the ability 919 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 3: to move forward with your new boyfriend, to move forward 920 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 3: with new boundaries. For your father, you are her role model, 921 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 3: just like Jodie said, and so with every act moving forward, 922 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 3: and that includes being honest with your boyfriend, think of 923 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 3: your yourself, setting an example for your younger sister. 924 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you so much. 925 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: Okay, good luck with everything. Thank you so much for 926 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,280 Speaker 1: calling you. Love you guys, Thank you bye, honey. 927 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 6: Oh my god, I know, I know, such a sweetheart. 928 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 6: I do also think maybe Chelsea, we can do a 929 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 6: GoFundMe with the dear Chelsea listeners and like get that 930 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 6: sure fixed? 931 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: Yeah I would love Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do that. 932 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 6: Yeah great, So we'll put that in the so you 933 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 6: guys can donate their sweetie puss, I know, I know. 934 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 1: Well, let's take a quick break. 935 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 6: I've got one more caller who's also got a bit 936 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 6: of a sticky situation. 937 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 1: Okay, we'll take a break and we'll be right back. 938 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: And we're back with Jody Pico. 939 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 6: We are back. 940 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 2: Well. 941 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 6: Our last caller today is TJ and he is a 942 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 6: flight attendant. He says, Dear Chelsea, I'm a gay male 943 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 6: in my thirties and I've worked as a flight attendant 944 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 6: for a major US carrier going on seven years. For 945 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 6: the entire length of that career, I have been poked, prodded, touched, tapped, nudged, 946 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 6: and flicked. Over the last couple of years, I've become 947 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 6: more frustrated with people touching me to get my attention. 948 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:44,959 Speaker 6: When I was more junior in my career, I would 949 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 6: just brush it off and keep it moving. These days, 950 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,359 Speaker 6: I make it a point to let people know they 951 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 6: don't get to touch me. 952 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: Here's where things get quote touchy for me. 953 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 6: Very recently, a grown woman slapped my ass as I 954 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 6: was bent over grabbing her something from the cart during 955 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 6: our beverage service in the main cabin. It was completely 956 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 6: embarrassing and triggering for me to have experienced this in 957 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 6: my place of work, and even worse. 958 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 1: When I laid down the. 959 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 6: Law with her, she said nothing, had no remorse, and 960 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 6: acted like I was in the wrong for telling her 961 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 6: not to make unwarranted sexual advances. I requested police meet 962 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 6: the flight, had her escorted off, filed a police report, 963 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,240 Speaker 6: and requested to press charges. I have a sneaking suspicion 964 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,400 Speaker 6: nothing will be done about this, as we don't have 965 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 6: much follow through with instances like these. I'm wondering if 966 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 6: I should take matters into my own hands and bring 967 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 6: my own legal counsel. As the unofficial spokesperson for flight attendants, Chelsea, 968 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 6: I'm wondering if you have any litigious insight for me. 969 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: Best. TJ Hi, TJ Hi, Hi. This is Jody. This 970 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:42,439 Speaker 1: is our special guest day. 971 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 2: Jody. 972 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 4: Hi. 973 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry that happened to you. 974 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 3: It's like the women's movement is moving so quickly, it's 975 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 3: flashing before our eyes. 976 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: Now we're acting like men. 977 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 7: I know the pendulum is swinging. 978 00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 4: I don't know. 979 00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: I mean this is really a personal question. 980 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 3: I mean, how it feels like you really want your 981 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 3: voice to be heard, And if you were a woman 982 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,280 Speaker 3: in this situation, I would say, you know, be indefatigable 983 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 3: in your desire and pursuit to have your voice heard. 984 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 3: So I guess I would say the same thing to you, 985 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 3: because it takes someone, it takes like a whistleblower to 986 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 3: get the party started. Like the fact that people still 987 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,319 Speaker 3: think that they can touch flight attendants is a little 988 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 3: bit antiquated. 989 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 7: Yeah, definitely. I mean it's interesting because I felt like 990 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,720 Speaker 7: it wasn't being taken very. 991 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: Seriously in the moment. 992 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 7: Right as I discussed with Catherine, I had looped the 993 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 7: pilots into what was going on, and their response was, oh, well, 994 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 7: we'll get a gate agent to meet the flight and 995 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 7: talk to the passenger. And I said, no, I want 996 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 7: police because if this was one of the female flight 997 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,840 Speaker 7: attendants getting groped by a man, we would be landing 998 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 7: this fucking plane. So like it with the program. 999 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,240 Speaker 1: Absolutely, was there alcohol involved? 1000 00:44:59,280 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 4: Was she drunk? 1001 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 7: So I keep people keep asking that question. And she 1002 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 7: was kind of a weirdo, but she wasn't like, she 1003 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 7: wasn't showing signs of intoxication like red eyes, sirt speech, 1004 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,760 Speaker 7: and you know, we're kind of look for those things. 1005 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 7: In fact, she was ordering a drink from me, and 1006 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 7: of course that didn't happen. It was odd, and just 1007 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,919 Speaker 7: for more context, as I was handing the drink over 1008 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,359 Speaker 7: is when she slapped me and I shot up and 1009 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 7: so before I could even say anything, she looked at 1010 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 7: me and said, sorry, I just couldn't help myself. And 1011 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 7: that's when I just like went in for the kill. 1012 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god. 1013 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,799 Speaker 3: It feels like the flight like flying and airplanes and 1014 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 3: airplane announcements need a major fucking update, like between people 1015 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 3: wearing flip flops or taking their shoes off and rubbing 1016 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,800 Speaker 3: their feet. There was somebody sent me a DM the 1017 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:51,920 Speaker 3: other day of somebody drying their underwear in front of. 1018 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: Their seat in first class. 1019 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 3: They had their underwear out and it was hanging on 1020 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 3: some on their trade table like some hook above it 1021 00:45:58,760 --> 00:45:59,360 Speaker 3: and drying. 1022 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, oh my god. 1023 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 3: We need an update in the aviation system of when 1024 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 3: people board planes to understand that there are rules and 1025 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 3: regulations and you're not allowed to physically touch a flight attendant. 1026 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 3: So if you really have the energy to go after this, 1027 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 3: I would say, fucking go for it and try and 1028 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 3: change the system. 1029 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 5: You know. 1030 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 3: I mean this is because it's absolutely true women can 1031 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,239 Speaker 3: get away with that kind of behavior now that men 1032 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,880 Speaker 3: can't as easily. The behavior has to apply to all sexes. 1033 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 3: So I would say, if you have the like you know, 1034 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 3: if you have the resources and you want to go 1035 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,799 Speaker 3: after it, go after it. Otherwise, I mean, I think 1036 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,280 Speaker 3: you should go after it with the intention of actually 1037 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 3: making the airlines acknowledge that this is an ongoing problem 1038 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,319 Speaker 3: and they need to address it when everybody is boarding 1039 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 3: the flight, like they address all the other things. And 1040 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,960 Speaker 3: I've heard that, by the way, on planes, I've heard that, 1041 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,359 Speaker 3: especially during COVID, I've heard pilots say, do not get 1042 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 3: upset with your flight attendant. She is not the one 1043 00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 3: making you wear a mask, you know. Like they had 1044 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 3: all these preliminary announcements that were varying from airline to airline, 1045 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,160 Speaker 3: but they were addressing it, and that does need to 1046 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 3: be a more permanent announcement. 1047 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 7: I mean, ever since this happened, I hop on the 1048 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 7: inner phone before we even go on the aisle and 1049 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 7: I say, as a reminder, take out your headphones when 1050 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 7: you're speaking to us, and do not touch the flight 1051 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 7: attendants like it's a petting zoo. 1052 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,320 Speaker 1: It's insane, but perfect. Yeah, you're doing it already. 1053 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:24,440 Speaker 4: Also, the other. 1054 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,759 Speaker 5: Thing that I would recommend is if there's a way 1055 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 5: to escalate this through your company, that's really important because 1056 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,839 Speaker 5: then it can become a company wide policy. But think 1057 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:34,920 Speaker 5: about other places that you can speak out and tell 1058 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,399 Speaker 5: your story, you know, So in terms of I don't 1059 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 5: know if there is this is a great place, for example, 1060 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,200 Speaker 5: but there are other outlets like this media. There might 1061 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,200 Speaker 5: be someone who would be willing to do a local 1062 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,560 Speaker 5: story on it on the news or something like that. 1063 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 5: That might be a really interesting place to spread the word, 1064 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 5: which I think is is really important. 1065 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like that aspect of things is more 1066 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 3: paramount than theligigious aspect. You want to have to spread 1067 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,200 Speaker 3: awareness on every issue, you know, and sometimes when we 1068 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 3: go after something legally, it's like it becomes such negative 1069 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,440 Speaker 3: energy that you're putting towards it. So I'm always looking 1070 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 3: for an avenue not to do that. 1071 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,839 Speaker 7: And I think that's the biggest problem I'm having with 1072 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 7: this is I'm not like a litigious person by nature. 1073 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 7: I'm not vindictive, and going after somebody on a civil 1074 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,200 Speaker 7: level for like a monetary value seems kind of icky. 1075 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,000 Speaker 7: But I'm like, is this a way for me to 1076 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:31,120 Speaker 7: turn that page. Is this something where I can see like, oh, 1077 00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 7: something has been done about this, this person has been punished. 1078 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 3: But listen, I think the spreading awareness is more important 1079 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,880 Speaker 3: than the punishing of this woman. Yeah, she learns her lesson, 1080 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,160 Speaker 3: She learned it. She's not going to do that again 1081 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,080 Speaker 3: most likely, you know what I mean, she got it. 1082 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,400 Speaker 3: You didn't react well to that, so I mean hopefully 1083 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,400 Speaker 3: she did. But I think what JODI's saying is right, Like, 1084 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,920 Speaker 3: you're sit telling the story here. Millions of people will 1085 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,240 Speaker 3: hear this and you're making the announcement yourself on your flights, 1086 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 3: which is great, and keep doing that, you know what 1087 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 3: I mean, because that if I heard that on a plane, 1088 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:01,799 Speaker 3: that's going. 1089 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,799 Speaker 1: To make me go, oh my god, who touched too? 1090 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,759 Speaker 1: You know what happened here that we're being told that. 1091 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 1: So and you should talk to other flight attendants about it. 1092 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: And anytime you can tell the story, do it. 1093 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 6: And if you're a journalist or podcaster listening who wants 1094 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:16,920 Speaker 6: to dig more into the story, contact me and I 1095 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:17,440 Speaker 6: can put. 1096 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:18,080 Speaker 1: You in touch with TJ. 1097 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 7: Yeah, gorgeous. 1098 00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:21,920 Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks for calling in. 1099 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 7: And thank you for having me on. 1100 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, TJ. Good luck with everything. I hope 1101 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:26,719 Speaker 1: I see you on a flight. 1102 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,000 Speaker 4: I hope so too. Well, I'll waterboard you. 1103 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,040 Speaker 1: With some vodka, okay, and then i'll smack you on 1104 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:37,240 Speaker 1: the ass. That'll be perfect. Okay. Bye, less and learned, 1105 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,759 Speaker 1: lesson learned, Yeah, thank you so much. 1106 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,160 Speaker 3: Okay, bye bye. Okay, Jody, we're going to wrap up 1107 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 3: with you. First of all, what a great description of 1108 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,239 Speaker 3: your book. I want to say thank you for describing 1109 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,080 Speaker 3: your book in that way, because many authors have a 1110 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,359 Speaker 3: lot of trouble talking about their own books. So it's 1111 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,320 Speaker 3: very refreshing to see someone with such a great sense 1112 00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,800 Speaker 3: of humor and so relatable giving us all this information 1113 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 3: which may not be so relatable, but coming from the 1114 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 3: filter of you makes it more so. 1115 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 4: Thank you. 1116 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,640 Speaker 5: Thank you for reading the book. I really appreciate it, 1117 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:12,960 Speaker 5: and I just hope that I hope people really take 1118 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 5: it to heart and see that a lot's changed to 1119 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,600 Speaker 5: four hundred years, but a lot sure hasn't. 1120 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think they will. I think they will, all right, 1121 00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:22,680 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Jodie, Take. 1122 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,200 Speaker 4: Care, take care, bye bye. 1123 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:27,840 Speaker 1: Okay. 1124 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,919 Speaker 3: So upcoming shows that I have you, guys, I will 1125 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 3: be all over Maine, Charlotte, North Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina. 1126 00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,800 Speaker 3: I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to Saint Louis and 1127 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,880 Speaker 3: Kansas City, and then I will be in Las Vegas 1128 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,719 Speaker 3: performing at the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel. My 1129 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,320 Speaker 3: first three dates in Vegas our September first, Labor Day weekend, 1130 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,080 Speaker 3: and then November two and November thirtieth. 1131 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:52,920 Speaker 1: I'm coming to. 1132 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 3: Brooklyn, New York, at the King's Theater on November eighth, 1133 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 3: and I have tickets on sale throughout the end of 1134 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,800 Speaker 3: the year in December, so if you're in a city 1135 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,320 Speaker 3: like Philadelphia or Bethlehem, or San Diego or New Orleans 1136 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,440 Speaker 3: or Omaha, check Chelseahandler dot com for tickets. 1137 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 6: Okay, if you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an 1138 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 6: email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and 1139 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,440 Speaker 6: be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is 1140 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 6: edited and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine law 1141 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,800 Speaker 6: and be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler 1142 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 6: dot com.