1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking news tonight Inside the 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: bloody ambush of two Kansas moms, says chilling new details 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: reveal how an evil mother in law lures the two 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: moms to their deaths using damning internet searches, burner phones, 5 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: stun guns, and a bulldozer. 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 2: Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,959 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories, and I want to thank you 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: for being with us. 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 3: Fifteen days after Veronica Butler and Jillian and Kelly are 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 3: reported missing, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation announces the 11 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 3: recovery of two bodies. The identity of the remains has 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 3: not been confirmed as of yet, but we do know 13 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 3: the remains have been sent to the Oklahoma Medical Examiner's 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 3: Office for identification as well as the cause and manner 15 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 3: of death. 16 00:00:50,920 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: All that, all that, burner phones, taser, stune guns, bullets, weapons, 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: a bulldozer, damning internet searches. Why granny plots to kill 18 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: her own daughter in law so she could have custody 19 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: of the grandchildren? Really? Yes, that's what official documents are 20 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: revealing tonight Inside the investigation. 21 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 2: But first, how did it all unfold? 22 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 3: Listen the planned meeting place for Veronica Butler to pick 23 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 3: up her children. Was a closed gas station near the 24 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 3: intersection of Oklahoma State Highway ninety five and Rhodel. The 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 3: area is flat and desolate. There are no trees or 26 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 3: homes nearby, as well as no traffic cameras. This is 27 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 3: where Melissa and Joey Padilla, relatives of Veronica Butler, found 28 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 3: her car after the mom didn't arrive at a birthday 29 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 3: party for one of her children. The car was abandoned 30 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 3: and there were pools of blood nearby, so they called police. 31 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 3: Investigators now say they believe Butler and Jillian and Kelly 32 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 3: were lured to the location, arriving around nine forty am. 33 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 3: Besides the pools of blood, officers found Butler's glasses on 34 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 3: the ground near a broken hammer. Kelly's purse was also found. 35 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 3: Inside was a gun magazine, but no weapon. Police say 36 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 3: the women were forced into another vehicle. The women's phone 37 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 3: stop sending signals at nine forty two am and have 38 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 3: not been recovered. 39 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: Only that official court document seemingly reveal that this was 40 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: not their first attempt on the young mom with me 41 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: it all start panel to make sense of what we 42 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: are learning. Stunning and chilling details emerging for a straight 43 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 1: out to Lauren Conlin, investigative journalist's host off the Outlawyer podcast. Lauren, 44 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. You've been on the 45 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: case from the very beginning. I can't believe what I 46 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: am seeing in this affidavit. A granny, a killer granny. 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: Suspect uses a bulldozer guns, Lauren, what's happening? 48 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 4: This is so tragic. It came out in these affidavits 49 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 4: that this was not the first attempt to take Veronica 50 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 4: Butler's life. They were planning to do something in February 51 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 4: where an anvil would go through her windshield, as this 52 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 4: was very common in the area. They would fall off 53 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 4: construction trucks, and. 54 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: They believed, Okay, please tell me you aren't somehow a 55 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: victim of Stockholm syndrome because anvils don't just fall out 56 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: of the air into people's cars. I don't care where 57 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: it is, I mean, hold on right there. Cheryl McCollum 58 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: is joining me, founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute, 59 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: forensics Expert. As a matter of fact, she's joining me 60 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: right now from her squad car. Cheryl, host of a 61 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: Hitting You podcast, Zone seven. I know maybe in crazy 62 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: Granny's world. An anvil falling from the sky or off 63 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: a truck into the young mom's car sounds reasonable. 64 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: It's it's not, Cheryl. It's not reasonable. 65 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 5: It is not reasonable. 66 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 6: You're talking about something that is so heavy there's no 67 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 6: way it's going to fall off a truck, and if 68 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 6: it does, it's simply going to land three feet onto 69 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 6: the pavement, not up five to six feet through her windshield. 70 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 6: So again, when you're talking about plotting and planting a 71 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 6: murder and your baseline is wiley coyote, you've got problems 72 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 6: from the get go. This was asinine at best. 73 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: Can I ask you something, Cheryl McCollum. I know you're 74 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: comparing them to a and their plan to a wily 75 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: coyote plot. But these two women are dead, six children 76 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: between them, and I don't care what anybody says, including 77 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: a shrink that will tell me how wrong I am. 78 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 1: There is nothing that can replace your mother. 79 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: Nothing, Amen. 80 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: And it may be a far f fetched plan, it 81 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: may be, but these ladies are dead. Not just the 82 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: young mom who is her right there, just going to 83 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: throw a birthday party for her children. That's Veronica Butler, 84 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: just twenty seven years old. But then you've got the 85 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: other lady, the church secretary, preacher wife. She's dead too, 86 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: Jilly and Kelly in her thirties, the prime of her life. 87 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: She was just doing a ride along to facilitate the 88 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: visitation and the pickup of mom's babies, six children without 89 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: a mom. So I don't care how zany their plot is. 90 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: There were pools of blood left around this young mom's 91 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: car because in my mind of. 92 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: Killer Granny, may she wrot in hell. 93 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: And let me point out, as Kelly Hyman will tell 94 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: me pretty quickly, they're innocent until proven guilty. And you 95 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: can all quit telling me that on Twitter. I know that, 96 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: I know they're not guilty yet, but I guarantee you 97 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 1: they will be because of a track A mile wide. 98 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 2: Isn't that riot, Lauren Comlin a mile wide? 99 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: Tell me about the evidence we're learning out of this 100 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: warrant right here. 101 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 4: Okay, So this is crazy. So first and foremost, they 102 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 4: got a search warrant on I believe it was March 103 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 4: thirty first for Tiffany Adams's phone. So they searched on 104 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 4: her phone, and they find searches that read taser pain level, 105 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 4: where to buy a gun at different gunshops in the area, 106 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 4: and then where to get prepaid cell phones, and then 107 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 4: how to get someone out of their house. Now in 108 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 4: the meantime, my boyfriend. 109 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: Le, you know what, you're just like spouting all this 110 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: damning information like it's a fire hydrant, Lauren Comlin, too much, 111 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: too fast. 112 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm drinking from the fire hydrant here. 113 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: So you said, look the pain level of a taser. 114 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: That was the mother in law's to say, Google search, 115 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: she searched the pay level of a taser? 116 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 4: She did, she searched. 117 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: Okay, I got to go now to an eminent guest 118 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: joining me, doctor Kendall Crowns. He is the chief medical 119 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: Examiner in Terrance County. That's Fort Worth near Dallas Lecturer University, 120 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: Texan Christian University Medical School, and he is joining us 121 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: right now from his office at the Medical Examiners. Doctor Crowns, 122 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I had a good 123 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: friend at CNN who actually tasered himself, and a good 124 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: friend at Court TV that followed up on it to 125 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: make sure it really hurt. 126 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 2: God rest his soul, Michael Christian. 127 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: So doctor Kendle Crowns, tell me how a taser works 128 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: and this is what was the plan. This is the 129 00:07:54,400 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: plan to use on two unarmed moms. How does it 130 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: work and how badly does it hurt? Doctor Crowns. 131 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 7: So, conductive electronic devices like taser work by injecting prongs 132 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 7: into your skin and then using these skins moisture to 133 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 7: conduct electricity across it and then send a large amount 134 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 7: of electricity into your body, basically shocking you. The shock 135 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 7: itself causes a tremendous amount of pain, causes you to 136 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 7: spasm and then collapse. 137 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: See that's why I have to work with you so 138 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: much before I could put you on the stand. Conductive 139 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: electronic device? What are you talking about? Can you dumb 140 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: me down for me? Please just say it? Regular people 141 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: talk how a taser works and the amount of pain. 142 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: What can we compare it. 143 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 7: To conductive electronic devices? Is what a taser is? Taser 144 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 7: themselves prefer you call it a conductive electronic device, because 145 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 7: not all conductive electronic devices are tasers. It's like a 146 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 7: xerox machine is a copier, et cetera. So it is 147 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 7: basically electricity being forced into your body, high amounts of electricity. 148 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 7: It'd be like you putting a fork into a wall socket. 149 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 7: You get the same kind of experience from that, except 150 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 7: the wall socket doesn't cause as much electricity to go 151 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 7: through you as a taser does. 152 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: As a general rule, a taser start with the baseline 153 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: a fifty thousand vaults of electricity. Fifty thousand volts of electricity. 154 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: What does that mean, doctor Kendall Crowns. 155 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 7: That's the high amount of electricity. It's higher than basically 156 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 7: your standard current in your house. So it's a large 157 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 7: amount of electricity being put into your body all at once. 158 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: Just think about it. Think about it, Cheryl McCollum, This 159 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:02,599 Speaker 1: evil mother in law was prepared to use fifty thousand 160 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: vaults of electricity minimum on the victims, in this case, 161 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: two unarmed women. She didn't care if she caused that 162 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: amount of pain, and Cheryl, think about it. Forget the taser. 163 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: They were gunned down. I think they were shot dead. 164 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 6: But let's talk even more basic in the beginning. You've 165 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 6: got four people and two women. It doesn't take a 166 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 6: taser to control them. If you ambushed two unsuspecting victims 167 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 6: with four people, you're gonna be able to control them 168 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 6: fairly easily. 169 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 5: I believe that the stun gun was for torture. 170 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: Wow, I hadn't even thought of that. Crime stories with 171 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 2: Nancy Grace joining me right now. 172 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: Kelly Hyman, trial lawyer and now civil lawyer joining us 173 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: out of Miami. Also legal analyst and host of Once 174 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: Upon a Crime in Hollywood. Kelly Hymen, I mean, this gang, 175 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: which they call themselves God's Misfits, have left a. 176 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: Trail a mile wide. 177 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: The State's going to have a field day with this. 178 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 8: This is a horrible story for these young kids to 179 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 8: lose their mother. 180 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 9: And we always when we look at things is why 181 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 9: do people do this? What was their motive behind this? 182 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 9: What was their reasoning behind this? That's key, And allegedly 183 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 9: they were in some big family dispute, bitter dispute that 184 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 9: left these beautiful kids without a mother. Ultimately, Nancy, as 185 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 9: you said, you are innocent until proven guilty. But there 186 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 9: is allegedly a lot of evidence coming out that's going 187 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 9: to make a strong case for the state. 188 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: I need to bring up the innocent until proven guilty part. 189 00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: What more do we know? 190 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: Oh, guys straight out to Lauren Colin, guns, bulldozers, tasers, 191 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: stun guns. 192 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 2: What more do we know, Lauren? 193 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: And all of this is to take out two innocent, 194 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: unarmed mothers. 195 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 4: Yes, let me stop you. There have been no guns found, 196 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 4: just stun guns. So this is actually really interesting, and 197 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 4: I'm a bit confused. I came across I think it 198 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 4: was yesterday or the day before. It was on an 199 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 4: outlet called the Oklahomaan, and you have to pay for 200 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 4: a lot of these articles. I did not pay, but 201 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 4: I did find a little snippet where the medical examiner said, 202 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 4: I don't believe they were a shot. And I'm going 203 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 4: through all of these affidavits, the arrest affadavits, all the 204 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 4: probable cause, and I don't see any guns. And as 205 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 4: Dave Max said, you know, Jillian Kelly had a pistol 206 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 4: magazine in her purse, but there were no guns. So 207 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 4: all we have here is burner phones and stun guns. 208 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 4: And then we have the equipment that I was going 209 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 4: to get to. So Tad Cullum, Tiffany's boyfriend, he rented 210 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 4: some land about eight miles away from where their vehicle 211 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 4: was initially found Veronica and Gillian's, and he rented equipment 212 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 4: like bulldozers and all these these names that my son 213 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 4: would know, skid steers. He'd be much better than I 214 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 4: am at this and he ends up digging a hole 215 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 4: in this property and then covering it with hay. And 216 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 4: this area is the last place where the women's phones 217 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 4: were actually pinged this area, and the property owner, I 218 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 4: believe his name is Jamie Beasley, he had no idea 219 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 4: what was going on. So when authorities, you know, send 220 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 4: all those trucks to get to get the women, to 221 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 4: get the bodies, once they get the tip, he's crying. 222 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 4: He's like, oh my gosh, I had no idea and 223 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 4: just in complete and utter shock. So I think it's 224 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 4: safe to say we really don't know the manner of 225 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 4: death that or how these women died. 226 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: Joining me, Cheryl McCollum, founder director, Cold Case Research Institute 227 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: and forensics expert. Cheryl, I can see all the digital 228 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: fingerprint footprint adding up placing the moms at this location 229 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: and coincidentally the same location where the burner phones were 230 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: turned off. 231 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 2: But I want to talk about. 232 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: The mag the magazine, the gun magazine found in one 233 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: of the victims purses. There's no indication that either of 234 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: the victims had a gun. And when I say a magazine, 235 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: I'm talking about a mag not a clip. A mag 236 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: feeds arounds into the gun chamber as it's being fired. 237 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: So what do you make of a mag being found? 238 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 6: Not verified? A lot of information. They're playing this close 239 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 6: to the vest, which they should. But let's say you 240 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 6: are going with somebody to beat you know, ex family 241 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 6: members that they've been fighting with for nine years. Maybe 242 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 6: somebody gave her something to, you know, protect herself. We 243 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 6: don't know if this was her, you know, potential partible 244 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 6: weapon or perpetrate. 245 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 5: We don't know yet. And you know, all we do 246 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 5: know is. 247 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 6: There pools of blood at the seat, broken hammer. So 248 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 6: was somebody shot, was somebody hit in the head, blood 249 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 6: force trauma? 250 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 5: We don't know yet. 251 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: Guys, we are learning that a minor, we believe it 252 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: to be a teen girl. 253 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 2: Has turned informant. 254 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. 255 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 10: The teenager told police that she had heard conversation among 256 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 10: the adults that Adam's grandchildren were at risk when they 257 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 10: were with Butler. She told investigators that Adams had provided 258 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 10: Burner phones so that personal devices were not needed to communicate. 259 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 10: The girl said she had seen two of the phones 260 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 10: charging on her mother's nightstand the day before the murders. 261 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 10: Adam's boyfriend column forty three, had asked the owner of 262 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 10: the property he rented if he could do some work there. 263 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: With his kids. 264 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 10: Seer a kind of bulldozer. According to the owner's conversation 265 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 10: with police, Colum reportedly said he wanted to cut down 266 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 10: a tree, remove a stump, and bury some concrete. The 267 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 10: teen said she heard that her mother and stepfather block 268 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 10: the road, diverting the women to where the others were waiting. 269 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 10: When asked why Kelly had to die, her mother reportedly 270 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 10: said because Kelly supported Butler. She wasn't innocent. The child 271 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 10: asked Cora Twombly if they had put the bodies in 272 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 10: a well. She was told something like. 273 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: That, Wow, it's always difficult to put a child on 274 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: the stand during a jury trial, but sometimes you have to. 275 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: This teen girl revealing so much of what was going 276 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: on in the home before the murders. In the home 277 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: of the suspects, straight back out to Lauren Colin, joining 278 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: US investigative journalist and host of The Outline. So, a 279 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 1: skid steer is a kind of bulldozer. Where were the 280 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: two moms bodies found? 281 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 4: So they were found by a dam in that rented 282 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 4: area of the property. So I'm assuming that they were 283 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 4: somewhat covered by this hay and the fresh dirt. I 284 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 4: believe they called it the soil, and they were easy 285 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 4: to find. I also I want to point something out 286 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 4: as well, Nancy. Her the witness, Cora told her or 287 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,239 Speaker 4: her daughter, whoever the witness was, that things didn't go 288 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 4: according to plan. This mission did not go according to plan. 289 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 4: So I don't know exactly what that means, but I 290 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 4: have a hunch it has something to do with a 291 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 4: possible fitth suspect that hasn't been arrested. 292 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 2: But that's just my team joining me right now. 293 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: Former US Marshall Service International Investigations Branch, author of Flying 294 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: Solo on Amazon. 295 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: Irvbrandt joining US Irvbrandt. 296 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: Did you hear what Lauren Colin just said, and I've 297 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: read it in the official court dogs that this gang 298 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: God's misfits said they were on a mission. They call 299 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: murdering these two young moms a mission? 300 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 2: What a mission from hell? 301 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 11: That's exactly what it was, Nancy. These people are obviously deranged. 302 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 11: They're not criminal masterminds. They had a previous murder plan 303 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 11: that didn't come didn't pan out. Then they go into 304 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 11: this elaborate plan using stun guns and a bulldozer, but 305 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 11: they leave a trail a mile wide for police investigators 306 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 11: to follow. Nancy, I've never seen anything like this. They 307 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 11: might as well have written out a confession and signed 308 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 11: it and sent it to the police Earlier. 309 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: I think we heard Cheryl McCollum compared it to Wiley 310 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: Coyote their plot, and I admonished her because we've got 311 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: two dead moms. But actually it does sound like something 312 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: out of the Apple Dumpling Gang, except nobody ever died 313 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: in those movies where they've been watching way too many 314 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 1: movies with the burner phones and the rendezvous point and 315 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: the bull I mean, how much more obvious can it 316 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: be or a brand than to rent a bulldozer or 317 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: to bring over your bulldozer Mancia. 318 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 11: I mean, I can't even give you a reasonable explanation 319 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 11: for their line of thinking of This is just not 320 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 11: It's like Cheryl Max said, it's something out of a 321 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 11: cartoon trying to drop an acme anvil on their head. 322 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 11: I don't know where these people came up with their ideas. 323 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 11: When they started researching it online, bounced to you know 324 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 11: someone saying, well, I want to poison someone. Then doing it, 325 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 11: you know, researching and on their computer, then ordering poison 326 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 11: off of Amazon. 327 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 2: To carry out the murder. 328 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 11: I can't give you an explanation, Nancy, I'm sorry. 329 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 3: The team told police that she was told that her 330 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 3: mother and stepfather would be gone that Saturday. When the 331 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 3: team woke up, she was told they were going to 332 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 3: be on a mission, and as she was told, the 333 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 3: Twembleys were not home when she woke up around ten am. 334 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 2: She says. 335 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 3: The couple came back around noon in their pickup and 336 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 3: a flatbed pickup owned by a relative. The teen says 337 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 3: she was told to clean the interior of the Chevrolet pickup. 338 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 3: When she asked what had happened, she was told the 339 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 3: meetings had not gone as plan, but that they would 340 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 3: not have to worry about Butler again. At the same 341 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 3: time that the twembles arrived home, Tiffany Adams went to 342 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 3: pick up her grandchildren at the home of the other 343 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 3: couple who hosted God's Misfits meetings. 344 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: The affidavit said, joining me in all Star panel, Cheryl McCollum, 345 00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: did you hear that. 346 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 6: They their own vehicle, They used their own computer, They 347 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 6: use their own cell phones to send text message. They 348 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 6: spoke in front of witnesses again for four people to 349 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 6: plot and plan, they made such severe mistakes. 350 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 5: I agree with her. 351 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 6: They might as well have just done a confession from 352 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 6: the get go, because it was obvious who did it. 353 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 6: You and I talked todaycy about you know, the victims 354 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 6: left a town of twelve hundred people to go to 355 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 6: a town of two hundred and eighty one people. 356 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 5: Your respect pool was people right off the bat. 357 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: According to the witness that has emerged, this teen girl 358 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: was told the mother, her I guess boyfriend, and two 359 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: others who claim to be quote God's misfits were on 360 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: a quote mission I'm reading from the affidavit. They were 361 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: going to be on a mission. She woke up around 362 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: ten am. They all came back around noon, the defendants 363 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: in a pickup and a flatbed owned by a relative, 364 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: and she, the teen girl, was told to clean the 365 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: interior of the Chevrolet pickup. 366 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: What does that mean to me? 367 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: That means that at least one of these mothers was 368 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: transported to a burial site in the Chevy pickup. When 369 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: the girl asked what happened, she was told things had 370 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: quote not gone as planned, but they would never have 371 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: to worry about Butler, that being. 372 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 2: Twenty seven year old mom Veronica Butler. 373 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: Again, at the same time, Tiffany Adams goes to pick 374 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: up the grandchildren elsewhere another cope, another couple's home who 375 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: hosted God's Misfits meetings. 376 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 2: What does that say to me? 377 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: That tells me out to Kelly Hyman, a veteran trial lawyer, 378 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: that there are other people, the ones that were babysitting 379 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: the children during all this, that knew about the plan 380 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: and they are going to be states witnesses along with 381 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: this team girl. As if I don't have enough information 382 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: and enough evidence anyway, now these babysitters, the other God's Misfits, 383 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: they're going to be witnesses or they could always be 384 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: charged for aiding and a betting, and I don't think 385 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: they want to go to the pen for that. 386 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 8: I think Nancy, we are just at the tip of 387 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 8: the iceberg on this, and you bring up a really 388 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 8: good point. Yes, So if people overheard this, they could 389 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 8: potentially be the state's witness and what that means is 390 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 8: they will testify in the trial of saying what they've 391 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 8: heard or potentially if they could potentially be charged with 392 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 8: aiding and betting and assisting in this in fact, if 393 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 8: they don't, if they help assist with. 394 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 9: This murder and stuff like that. So it'll be interesting 395 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 9: to see what transpires in the coming next days and 396 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 9: who turns as a state witness or potentially are there 397 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 9: going to be additional charges for people who will or 398 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 9: heard stuff and were potentially involved in this as well. 399 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: Back to doctor Kendall Crowns joining us out of Chartt 400 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: County for were from the Medical Examiner's Office DOTR. Crown's again, 401 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. We're trying to determine 402 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: whether the manner of death was shooting or stabbing. I 403 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: know the bodies had been buried haphazardly, would you be 404 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: able to tell and how the manner and cause of death? 405 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 7: Certainly you'd be able to determine the cause of death 406 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 7: based on the injury patterns even though they had been buried. 407 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 7: It won't take away the damage to the body, especially 408 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 7: to the skeletal system kind of, and then the manner 409 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 7: of death would be fairly easy. The fact that they've 410 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 7: been buried out in the middle of nowhere, They're obviously 411 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 7: been killed, so it's going to be a homicide. So 412 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 7: determining between gunshot wounds, stabbings or beatings. It would just 413 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 7: be looking at the injury patterns on the body based 414 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 7: on the information you already had, pools of blood, broken hammer, 415 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 7: the fact that they were talking about using an anvil 416 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 7: in the first place makes me feel like they've probably 417 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 7: beaten these individuals to death using a hammer after they 418 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 7: stunned them. 419 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: Okay, you know, doctor Kimmel Crowns, I understand what you're saying. Now. 420 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: You believe there's a very strong potential of the two 421 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: victims being beaten dead with a hammer. 422 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 2: And why do you say that? 423 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 7: Because there's a broken hammer at the scene, there's pools 424 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 7: of blood, and they have been talking about doing blunt 425 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 7: force trauma to the individuals in the first place using 426 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 7: an anvil, So it doesn't sound like they had planned 427 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 7: to use guns all along, that they kind of planned 428 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 7: to use blunt force trauma. So it makes me think 429 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 7: that they use the stun guns to kind of subdue 430 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 7: them and then just beat them to death with a hammer. 431 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: You know, doctor Kendall Crowns, I was thinking gun because 432 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: of the amount of blood pools of blood there, and 433 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: I attributed the hammer handle to breaking the windshield because 434 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: a witness stated she had driven by. It was around 435 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: ten am. The mom's left for their journey of forty 436 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: five minute drive around nine am, and at ten am 437 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: a female witness drives by and sees their vehicle and 438 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: sees a window on the driver's side bust it out. Now, 439 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: I attributed the discovery of the hammer handle to breaking 440 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: out the window, but your theory makes a lot more 441 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: sense to me. Plus, I'm not hearing about any guns 442 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 1: being registered to the defendants, although I find that really 443 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: hard to believe. But that said, what about it, Cheryl McCollum. 444 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 6: As to why the glasses will be on the ground 445 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 6: large pools of blood? Nobody in the vicinity heard a 446 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 6: gunshot it also, would you know? To me goes back 447 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 6: to my theory. They were tortured. This was anger. She 448 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 6: didn't look up stundum, she looked up the pain level. 449 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 5: This was very personal. 450 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 6: They have been fighting for almost a decade over those 451 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 6: children and they were attacked. I'm going to say it again, 452 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 6: this didn't take four people. This was a deliberate gang ambush. 453 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: Killer Granny's suspects, bloody ambush on two unarmed Kansas moms 454 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: on their way to a children's birthday party, and they 455 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: apparently used tasers, burner phones, even a bulldozer to affect 456 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: their plan. Joining me an all star panel. You were 457 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: just hearing Cheryl McCollum. But now to Lauren Conlin, the 458 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 1: investigative journalist's host of the Outlier podcast. I want to 459 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: hear what you have to say about the use of 460 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: the hammer as the murder weapon. But also I found 461 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 1: some thing buried in the affidavit and I found this 462 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: really interesting. I want everybody on the panel to jump in. 463 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: We find out that three prepaid cellular phones were purchased 464 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 1: from Walmart in Oklahoma back on Feb thirteen. That's how 465 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: long they've been planning this since Feb thirteen. This is 466 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: what I found really interesting. All three of the burner 467 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: phones were powered on and access cellular network for the 468 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: first time at Colum's residents. So Ellie law enforcement can 469 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: identify the first time these idiots turned on the burner 470 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: phone is basically inside their own home. 471 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 2: Ding dong. 472 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: They couldn't figure out that they are leaving a digital trail. 473 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: They're turning on the cellular phones that were used to 474 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: orchestrate this double murder. They turn it on for the 475 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: first time in or near their own home. I mean, 476 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: they need to go back and watch Ocean's eleven all 477 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: over again. 478 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: Lauren Colin, you were jumping in. What were you saying? 479 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 6: Well, I can. 480 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 4: Provide some context to this as well, because while they 481 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 4: appear to be extremely dumb criminals, obviously, I think there's 482 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 4: an element to this, right, the farm element. I don't 483 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 4: think that it's out of the ordinary that he would 484 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 4: rent farm equipment or dig holes xyz. But using your 485 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 4: own cell phones and turning these cell phones, these burner 486 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 4: phones on at your own house. This goes to the 487 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 4: fact that Tiffany Adams is actually very connected in that town. 488 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 4: She runs and is responsible for the Simmern County GOP. 489 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 4: She's their chair, she was a former school board chair. 490 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 4: She knows the sheriff's office. I mean, I think there 491 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 4: was a cool where she had said, you know, I 492 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 4: know the path the judge takes to work. She knows everybody, 493 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 4: and I believe that she thinks that she is untouchable 494 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 4: and people don't necessarily want to talk. The one judge 495 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 4: that did speak, he was forced to resign the next day. 496 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 4: So it's really interesting and I think that this woman, 497 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 4: in particular, Tiffany Adams, she holds a type of power 498 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 4: that we are just going to be learning about. 499 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: Well, you know what that calls for a change of venue. 500 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: That won't be hard. 501 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 12: You know. 502 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: I'm still looking very carefully at this, Adma, David, and 503 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: I want everybody to weigh in on this. The whole 504 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: dug about two hundred yards below of dam fell back 505 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: in and covered with Hey, I mean you could probably 506 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: see that with a drive over from a helicopter. For 507 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: Pete's sake, did they not think cops are going to 508 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: find that? I mean, our brandt. I've seen many many homicides. 509 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: I've investigated many, tried many, covered many. But this is 510 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: a plethora a Pandora's box of evidence. 511 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 11: Nancy, That's exactly right. Like you, I've been doing this 512 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 11: all my adult life, and I have never seen a 513 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 11: case probably easier to solve, easier to prove. When we 514 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 11: take it to you, as the prosecuting attorney, you'd look 515 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 11: at us and say, you've got to be kidding me. 516 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 11: You know, I can't believe this. Whereas did they videotape 517 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 11: themselves committing the crime? Did they post it on social media. 518 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 11: They did just about everything else imaginable, you know, to 519 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 11: say they did it, the confessions got to be forthcoming. 520 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 11: I would imagine the. 521 00:31:53,080 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: Police crime stories with Nancy Grace joining me, high profile lawyer, 522 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: very familiar with the case. Kelly, I want you to 523 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: take a listen to this. 524 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 10: The motive, according to investigators, is custody of Butler's two children. 525 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 10: A custody battle has gone on for more than five years. 526 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 10: Father wrangler Rickman, Tiffany Adams's son, was awarded custody of 527 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 10: the children, but Rickman was confirmed to being in a 528 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 10: rehabilitation facility in Oklahoma City at the time of the murders. 529 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 10: For Veronica, Butler's custody arrangement allowed her supervised visitation with 530 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 10: her children every Saturday, and reportedly, according to Butler's attorney, 531 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 10: she was likely to be granted unsupervised visitation during an 532 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 10: upcoming hearing the Affadavid states that Adams vehemently opposed this 533 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 10: and went to great links to plan and purchase items 534 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 10: used in Butler and Kelly's murders. It continues Adam, Cullam, Cole, 535 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 10: and Cora were willing to kidnap and murder two victims 536 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 10: to limit visitation for Butler. 537 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: And isn't it true guys who were talking about Adams 538 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: were talking about Tiffany Michelle Adams age fifty four, who 539 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: is the alleged evil mother in law. 540 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: Her who plotted this. 541 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: It seems to think that she's the political boss of 542 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: the county. I got needs for her political boss or no, 543 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: she's going down because of her own actions, and its 544 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: seemingly straight back out to Lauren Colin or anybody. Cheryl McCollum, 545 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: you may know the answer to this. It seems as 546 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: if earlier there were plans to take out a judge. 547 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: Another relative was concerned about the custody issue and was 548 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: told that no need for concern't they would not have 549 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: to worry about the custody battle much longer because and 550 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: I'm quoting from the affidavit, Adam, that's the grandma, the 551 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: mother in law quote had it under control that she 552 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: knew the path the judge walked to work and would 553 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: take out Veronica at the drop off, take out Veronica 554 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: at the drop off. What about that? 555 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 5: Tell it on herself. She has told on herself. 556 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 6: I think for the last nine years, I think there's 557 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 6: probably been threats all over creation. 558 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 5: And let me tell you the most streaking thing for me. 559 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 6: This woman, the ex mother in law, cannot stand Veronica. 560 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 6: She has made that clear. Veronica's no good for the children. 561 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 6: They're not safe with her. She probably doesn't cook and clean, 562 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 6: she doesn't take care of them. They're only you know, okay, 563 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 6: when they're in her custody. When Veronica did not meet 564 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 6: except the children up, especially on the daughter's birthday, remember 565 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 6: it was her birthday, you would have been the first person, 566 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 6: Tiffany would have been the first person call of the court. 567 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 5: Saying she's in contempt. I told y'all she was no good. 568 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 6: I've got these children sitting here crying because their mama 569 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 6: didn't show up. 570 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 5: Is this baby's birthday? When she didn't do that, she 571 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 5: didn't make that call, pitching a fence. That told me 572 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 5: right there she's involved. 573 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,720 Speaker 1: Is nobody worried about discussion of killing a judge pops 574 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: up in the affidavit because I'm looking right at it 575 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: that we don't have to worry about custody anymore. Because Adams, 576 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: that would be the mother in law, Tiffany Adams quote 577 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: knew the path the judge walked to work. I mean 578 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, and I'm the only one seeing that. Were 579 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: they going to kill a judge too? 580 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 6: It is telling you the links that she was gonna 581 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 6: go to Nancy. Nothing was gonna stop her from keeping 582 00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 6: those children away from Veronica. She was going to have 583 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 6: every possible avenue stopped so that she could have these children. 584 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 5: Nancy. 585 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,240 Speaker 6: She's supposedly so connected to the courts and to the police, 586 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 6: but she has refused to go by any of the 587 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 6: court's order. They've basically made her bulletproof for years. She 588 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 6: has stopped the mama from seeing them for years. She 589 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 6: has refused to do what the court tells her to do. 590 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 6: And when it looked for her that she could no 591 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 6: longer prow the court or the victim, she killed her. 592 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 5: That's how it looks, plain and simple. 593 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: There is the death penalty in Oklahoma, Kelly Hyman. There 594 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: have to be special aggravating circumstances in order for a 595 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: prosecutor to seek a death penalty, and those have to 596 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,280 Speaker 1: be clearly enunciated far. 597 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 2: Prior to trial. In writing. 598 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: There has to be an announcement the state is going 599 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: to seek the death penalty, and there is a very 600 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 1: limited number of aggravating circumstances that will suffice. However, more 601 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,720 Speaker 1: than one body is one of those aggravating circumstances. 602 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 8: Ultimately that will be up to the state to make 603 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 8: a determination on whether they believe that they can bring 604 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 8: it based on the facts and evidence of the case. 605 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,919 Speaker 9: But there is a lot of evidence that is coming out, 606 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 9: and Nancy, to your point about the alleged about the judge, 607 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 9: that is very very disconcerting because judges are the ones 608 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 9: that preside over the case and they're the ones that 609 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 9: make determinations, and so the fact that there is allegations 610 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 9: of harming a judge, which is very disconcerting and very upsetting. 611 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 12: But ultimately, no one, no matter who you are, is 612 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 12: above the law, and people need to be held accountable 613 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 12: and ultimately that will be up to the jury of 614 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 12: whether they're innocent or guilty in this case too. 615 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: Our brand joining us former US Marshal Service and author 616 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: IRV to thank all. This was over what every other 617 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: weekend or Wednesday to Saturday versus Thursday to Saturday visitations. 618 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 2: And you know the so. 619 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: Called evil mother in law, evil granny killer suspect. She's 620 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: the mother of the bio dad, so she would have 621 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: access to the grandchildren every time he had visitation or 622 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, share custody. So if he got the children 623 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: half the time, she would have access to the children 624 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: half of their lives. 625 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 2: And in a divorce, you know, for a lot of people, 626 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 2: that's pretty good visitation. 627 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: And all of this over what a few days a month, Nancy, I. 628 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,919 Speaker 11: Don't think the time had anything to do with it. 629 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 11: I think to this woman, this was obviously about control, 630 00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 11: and she wanted complete control of who was going to 631 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 11: see those children, and when they were going to see 632 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 11: those children, and what the circumstances were going to be. 633 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 11: And she wasn't even going to allow a judge to 634 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 11: dictate to her how to take care of these children, 635 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 11: because she said it, she'll take that judge out. She 636 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 11: knows his path to the courthouse. So no, Nancy, it 637 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 11: makes no sense other than the fact that the woman 638 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 11: was wanted complete control over every action concerning those children. 639 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: To doctor Kendall Crowns, Doctor Kendall Crowns, your theory that 640 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: a hammer was used to bludgeon the women dead, most 641 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: likely about. 642 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 2: The face and the head. 643 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: The pain they would have endured preceding their death would 644 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: have been unbearable, correct. 645 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 7: I mean if these being tased or shocked with the 646 00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 7: electronic devices or electric devices, then being beaten with a hammer. 647 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 7: Hammer isn't really efficient to kill someone because it's hard 648 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 7: to break the skull with a hammer, so they would 649 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,840 Speaker 7: have to continually strike them multiple times, eventually fracturing the 650 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 7: head and then getting into the brain cavity. The other 651 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 7: thing you have to consider is the fact that they 652 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 7: could have been hit with the hammer, knocked unconscious, and 653 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 7: then placed into the grave and then covered with the dirt, 654 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,479 Speaker 7: still being alive but unconscious, so then dying by being 655 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 7: buried alive as well. So there's a couple of ways 656 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 7: of going out in this case. 657 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,399 Speaker 1: Would a medical examination of their lungs determine if they 658 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,240 Speaker 1: were buried alive, their lungs, their nasal pastes in their mouths. 659 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 7: Their mouths and their nose could have inhaling the dirt. 660 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 7: It wouldn't probably get as deep as the lungs it could, 661 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 7: but you would see that the fact that they were 662 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 7: inhaling or gulping at the dirt after they were buried. 663 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 7: So that is something that can be found at autopsy. 664 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 2: Two unarmed and a mothers dead. 665 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds, and now we stop to 666 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:13,720 Speaker 1: remember American hero agent Eliezer Ramos Valez, just thirty five, 667 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: shot in the line of duty, leaving behind his beloved 668 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: fiancee and infant son, Malcolm. American hero agent Elie iSER 669 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: Ramos Valez. I want to thank all of our guests 670 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: for being with us tonight, but especially to you for 671 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: being with us tonight and every night. Nancy Gray signing off, 672 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,240 Speaker 1: good night friend.