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Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If

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Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.

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Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,

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Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have

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Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but

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Speaker 2: they're breaking the lord.

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Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty

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Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then

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Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be

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Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the

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Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.

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Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something

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Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said,

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Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, but.

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Speaker 4: They can.

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Speaker 5: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 5: Jason Flamm today. I'm very excited to have an amazing

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Speaker 5: group of guests, and I'm going to save our star

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Speaker 5: for the last introduction, But first of all, I want

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Speaker 5: to introduce Sema Safey, who is an attorney with the

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Speaker 5: Innocence Project in New York. Sema, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having me Jason.

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Speaker 5: And today we have a first on wrongful conviction. We

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Speaker 5: have the brother of the exonery here to help tell

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Speaker 5: the story and to keep an eye on his little

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Speaker 5: brother as well. Right, so, Jerry Hatchett, welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me here.

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Speaker 5: And like I said, the best for last. So the

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Speaker 5: star of our show is Andre Hatchett, who served twenty

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Speaker 5: five years in prison, not including a year in jail

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Speaker 5: waiting for trial for a crime he did not commit.

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Speaker 5: When you hear Andre, Sikiel noticed that his voice is

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Speaker 5: very low, and that's because of the fact that he

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Speaker 5: had been shot in the neck prior to even having

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Speaker 5: any of this stuff happen in the first place.

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Speaker 6: Andre Hatchett enjoying his first real taste of freedom after

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Speaker 6: more than two decades in prison. A judge overturned his

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Speaker 6: nineteen ninety two murder conviction and the beating death of

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Speaker 6: a woman whose body was found in a Bedford Stuyvesant park.

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Speaker 6: The only evidence in the case the eyewitness testimony of

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Speaker 6: a man who first told police someone else killed the victim,

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Speaker 6: and who fingered hatchet when comps found out that first

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Speaker 6: suspect was in jail at the time of the killing

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Speaker 6: and couldn't have done it. The Brooklyn District Attorney's Conviction

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Speaker 6: Integrity Unit cooperating with lawyers from the Innocence Project, who

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Speaker 6: say Hatchett was also recovering from gunshot wounds at the

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Speaker 6: time and was physically unable to carry out the murder.

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Speaker 6: Attorney Barry Scheck says Hatche's case shows that pending legislation

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Speaker 6: on witness questioning should be passed. Hatchett was twenty four

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Speaker 6: years old when this all started. He turns fifty in May. Now,

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Speaker 6: Hatchett is surrounded by relatives who say they never lost

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Speaker 6: faith even as he became a victim of the system.

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Speaker 5: Andre, Welcome to Wrong for Conviction. Thank you, Andre. Let's

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Speaker 5: go back. This was early nineties we're talking about, but

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Speaker 5: even before that, Where did you grow up? How did

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Speaker 5: you grow up? How was your family life? Tell me

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Speaker 5: a little back.

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Speaker 7: All right, First, we came from down South. We moved

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Speaker 7: in Wrong Island, fergust in early seventy five, me and

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Speaker 7: my mother and my three brothers and my stepfather.

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Speaker 5: So you moved up here when you were a kid.

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Speaker 3: Basically I was young. I was young.

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Speaker 7: My mother used to work in the buiicycle shop. I'm

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Speaker 7: talking about my mother. First, I missed because she passed

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Speaker 7: away while I was in jail. I missed.

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Speaker 5: I got ps PETE TSD.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I got that right now.

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Speaker 7: And so so we grew up and my mother used

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Speaker 7: to we should make money trying to help my mother.

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Speaker 7: Cause my mother used to she was single parents because

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Speaker 7: she came up here, bringing us up here. So she

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Speaker 7: always tell us, you ever get in trouble, son, you

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Speaker 7: and you know I don't go to jail. I don't

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Speaker 7: the job. She got clothes folks, she don't have no money,

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Speaker 7: and she for five for us. You know, don't do that.

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Speaker 7: So I never did nothing get in trouble. I used

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Speaker 7: to listen to my mother. You know, I always been

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Speaker 7: slow education. You know I can't read to right. That

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Speaker 7: guy still abong working.

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Speaker 5: On the tree. So growing up, I mean, it sounds

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Speaker 5: like you had a pretty happy child that obviously you

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Speaker 5: had some some learning disabilities I still do right, and

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Speaker 5: some difficulties, but the fact is you were doing okay.

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Speaker 5: Things were all right. You have your family and your brother.

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Speaker 3: And then we moved to Brooklyn.

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Speaker 7: As I got big, we used to pack bag at

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Speaker 7: key food shovel snow anything to help my mother.

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Speaker 5: So you've grown up, you're getting along making.

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Speaker 7: I used to pack bags at Key Food. As I

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Speaker 7: got bigger, I went to the ice company. I was

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Speaker 7: so strong, right, I was so strong that ice. They

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Speaker 7: used to call me animal there.

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Speaker 8: You remember these times, Yeah, we we was kids like

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Speaker 8: summer jobs. We would go there and help at the

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Speaker 8: ice company because my stepfather drove the truck for the

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Speaker 8: ice company. So we used to go there in the

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Speaker 8: summertime and help out around there and work with them,

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Speaker 8: you know, work on the truck and helping everything. And

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Speaker 8: I left, but Andre stayed around because I moved to

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Speaker 8: Long Island and we got a real job, you know.

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Speaker 8: But he stayed on the ice cruck working with my

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Speaker 8: stepfathering him.

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Speaker 5: So before this crime ever even happened, you were a

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Speaker 5: victim of a terrible crime yourself.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 7: I got shot. I don't know who something today with

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Speaker 7: the brother I was going through the store. I don't

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Speaker 7: know who something. I got hit in the neck and

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Speaker 7: growing in the leg, in the throat.

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Speaker 5: And that's an important point. And Seema, jump in here

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Speaker 5: for a second, because this is what's so crazy about

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Speaker 5: your case. Right, We're talking about a crime that was

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Speaker 5: committed on February eighteenth, nineteen ninety one. The victim was

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Speaker 5: a woman named Meta make Carter. And it is really

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Speaker 5: a gruesome crime. It's like something off of a True

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Speaker 5: Detective or one of those shows on TV. And you know,

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Speaker 5: if you can jump in and tell us a little

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Speaker 5: bit about the crime and why it's so preposterous that

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Speaker 5: anyone could have ever identified or prosecuted or convicted Andrea

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Speaker 5: of a crime that it is physically impossible. Forget the

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Speaker 5: fact that the alby witnesses and everything else, but it

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Speaker 5: was also physically impossible that he would have committed this crime.

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Speaker 4: So the victim was, like you said, a thirty eight

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Speaker 4: year old woman. Her body was found in a park

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Speaker 4: in Brooklyn, and it was eleven o'clock at night. It

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Speaker 4: was a drizzly, rainy scene, and it was this is

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Speaker 4: going to be pretty graphic. But her body was found,

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Speaker 4: her skull was exposed because of how badly bludgeoned she

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Speaker 4: was in the head. Her teeth were knocked out of

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Speaker 4: her gums. Her body had been dragged across a distance.

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Speaker 4: Her clothes were found strewn across the park. Her vulva

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Speaker 4: had been ruptured when she was examined at autopsy, and

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Speaker 4: her body was placed in a position that the DA's

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Speaker 4: office ultimately when they exonerated Andrea, described it as sort

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Speaker 4: of like it was deliberately placed in sort of a

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Speaker 4: crucifix style position. And so whoever committed this crime had

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Speaker 4: to inflict a significant amount of force to have done this.

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Speaker 4: And there were three metal pipes found in the vicinity

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Speaker 4: of her body which were believed to have been the

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Speaker 4: murder weapon that was used to bludgeon and sodomize her.

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Speaker 4: Andrea was in a cast and two crutches on the

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Speaker 4: night of the crime. The victim's own mother testified that

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Speaker 4: he was using crutches on the night of the crime

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Speaker 4: because earlier that night he was with the victim because

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Speaker 4: his aunt lived in the same rooming house as the

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Speaker 4: victim and the victim's mother, so he would visit his

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Speaker 4: aunt almost every day and occasionally he would chat with

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Speaker 4: the victim, watch TV, borrow her mother's records, and so

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Speaker 4: they were acquainted. And so later that night, the victim

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Speaker 4: went out, I think she went to buy some drugs.

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Speaker 4: She never came back home. Andre left. He had an

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Speaker 4: alibi for the rest of the night, even when the

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Speaker 4: comps inner viewed him, they let him go because he

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Speaker 4: had a solid alibi. Now, what was chilling is that

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Speaker 4: there was such grave defense counsel incompetence in this case

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Speaker 4: that his first defense counsel was deemed ineffective by that

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Speaker 4: trial judge. And so the trial judge said, you were

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Speaker 4: so incompetent, I'm going to give this man a second

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Speaker 4: trial because he didn't even present his alibi, he didn't

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Speaker 4: cross examine witnesses, he had a hearing impediment, so he

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Speaker 4: gave him a second trial. His second lawyer was someone

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Speaker 4: who was suspended from the practice of law for a

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Speaker 4: period of time in the eighties. Neither lawyer ordered Andre's

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Speaker 4: medical records to show that it would have been physically

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Speaker 4: impossible with his condition to have committed this crime, and

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Speaker 4: all they needed to do was make that clear to

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Speaker 4: the jury.

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Speaker 9: They never did.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 8: Going back to his first attorney, me and my mother

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Speaker 8: was in a Supreme court downtown Brooklyn, and like I said,

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Speaker 8: we never been in trouble before, so we didn't know

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Speaker 8: what lawyer to get for no case. Me being the oldest,

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Speaker 8: I'm trying to do anything to help my mother because she.

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Speaker 5: High blood pressure help proproblems.

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Speaker 8: So you see a guy in the Supreme Court and

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Speaker 8: he say he's a lawyer. I'm like, how much I

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Speaker 8: paid for his first lawyer, right, mister Panzer. I paid

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Speaker 8: him I think a couple of thousand dollars down to

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Speaker 8: try to help my mother out. We get in court,

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Speaker 8: like he said, the judges just I'm in court me

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Speaker 8: saying he didn't do it. Check his medical records.

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Speaker 3: I'm telling me.

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Speaker 8: His brother's telling the judge this, check his medical records.

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Speaker 3: It isn't impossible.

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Speaker 8: And they didn't even listen to me. They was like, oh,

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Speaker 8: you got to go to the boss association to get

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Speaker 8: your money back. And I told the judge I paid

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Speaker 8: this guy, and the judge like, you paid him.

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Speaker 5: He was a legal aid.

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Speaker 8: But I didn't even know that the first lawyer was

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Speaker 8: a legal aid, that he wasn't supposed to charge me.

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Speaker 8: I'm trying to do anything to help my brother and

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Speaker 8: my mother, you know, out, So I didn't know.

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Speaker 5: Let me go back a minute, So when were you shot?

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Speaker 7: Hundred I was shot at nineteen ninety it was going

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Speaker 7: into the wintertime.

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Speaker 5: So you were shot not long before this terrible crime happened.

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Speaker 5: And this crime is as terrible as it gets.

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Speaker 8: And when he was shot, he got shot in his

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Speaker 8: leg and he had to take a bone out of

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Speaker 8: his hip and put in his leg, and he had

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Speaker 8: screws in his.

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Speaker 3: Leg timrod like a table.

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Speaker 8: So when the cops questioned him, he actually had to

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Speaker 8: cast on his leg.

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Speaker 5: What was the circumstances? Where were you going? It just

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Speaker 5: came out of nowhere.

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Speaker 7: I was going to the store, just going to the store,

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Speaker 7: passer like a block and they just start shooting somebody,

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Speaker 7: dogs got killed, all the people got shot.

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Speaker 3: I don't know who shot me back to the day.

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Speaker 5: And that's one of the things with this case that

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Speaker 5: troubled me so much from the first time I became

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Speaker 5: aware of it, is the idea that it's unusual that

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Speaker 5: you have a case that's seemingly so totally open and

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Speaker 5: shot that literally a sixth grader could have represented you

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Speaker 5: and said, your honor, this can't be. This is not possible. Right,

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Speaker 5: You cannot drag somebody as his body was dragged. You

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Speaker 5: could not have committed this crime in any of the

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Speaker 5: things that were said. As we'll find out later, the

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Speaker 5: whole system failed you. So you were shot, and then

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Speaker 5: how did they end up even coming to the idea

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Speaker 5: that maybe you could have been the one that did this.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 7: She lived in my aunt building. She lived in my

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Speaker 7: aunt building because I go there because my aunt lived there.

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Speaker 7: She passed away to my aunt named Angie Angie Atchie.

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Speaker 5: I mean, this is my head is spinning every time

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Speaker 5: I think I've heard it all, I hear a story

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Speaker 5: like Andrea's and I'm like, okay, this is just I mean,

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Speaker 5: as you described that crime, and it's as gruesome of

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Speaker 5: a crime as there could be. And the idea that

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Speaker 5: they would willfully prosecute somebody who they knew were innocent

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Speaker 5: because anybody would have known he was innocent, and leave

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Speaker 5: that guy who's a true monster on the streets to

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Speaker 5: potentially do this type of thing to another innocent person.

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Speaker 5: I mean, what am I missing here? This is insane.

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Speaker 4: So Andre and the victim were acquaintances. As Andre mentioned,

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Speaker 4: she lived in the same rooming house as Andrea's aunt.

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Speaker 4: When Andre would visit his aunt, he would sometimes talk

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Speaker 4: to or watch TV with the victim, and he was

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Speaker 4: with the victim earlier in the evening that night, and

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Speaker 4: the victim asked Andre to borrow a couple dollars, so

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Speaker 4: he gave her three dollars. She went, she bought some drugs.

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Speaker 4: She came back smoked in the house. She borrowed a

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Speaker 4: few more dollars, left again, never came back.

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Speaker 9: Andre didn't see her.

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Speaker 4: Andre waited for her with her mother, and then after

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Speaker 4: about half an hour, Andre left again. And then he

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Speaker 4: had gone home, spent some time with his cousin, watched

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Speaker 4: some TV. He remembered the TV show he watched, went

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Speaker 4: to bed, and then her body was found later that night. Now,

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Speaker 4: the mother was interviewed by police. She said, the last

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Speaker 4: person I saw my daughter with was Andre Hatchett. Police

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Speaker 4: interviewed him the next day. He had a solid, detailed alibi.

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Speaker 9: They let him go.

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Speaker 4: Eight days later, a man named Jerry Williams gets arrested

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Speaker 4: for an unrelated burglary. Now, Jerry Williams is in the

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Speaker 4: bullpen at the precinct and he tells cops, hey, I

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Speaker 4: have some information about that high profile murder that took

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Speaker 4: place in the park in Brooklyn, and he described the person.

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Speaker 4: He said, I knew him from the neighborhood. I knew

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Speaker 4: him from soup kitchens. Now, Andrea had never been to

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Speaker 4: a soup kitchen because he was on SSI he didn't

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Speaker 4: need to go to soup kitchens. And then he starts

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Speaker 4: describing the person. He says, I saw this crime from

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Speaker 4: a distance of forty feet. It was a rainy night.

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Speaker 4: He said, I heard someone make a deep scream. I

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Speaker 4: was with my friend named Popeye. So he said, then

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Speaker 4: Popeye yells out, are you okay? Because they see a

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Speaker 4: shadow of someone with something in his hand, swinging his

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Speaker 4: arm on the ground to a body on the ground,

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Speaker 4: and so Popeye screams out, are you okay? And they

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Speaker 4: said that a man screamedback, stepped the f off in

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Speaker 4: a very distinctive voice that could be heard from a

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Speaker 4: distance of forty feet. So then this guy, Jerry Williams said,

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Speaker 4: and I think the guy is someone you know.

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Speaker 9: I think he was a suspect. He has crutches.

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Speaker 4: So he knew that Andrea had already been cleared by police,

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Speaker 4: and he started to describe this person as in a

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Speaker 4: way that was very consistent with Andre, because Andre had crutches.

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Speaker 5: So Jerry Williams had a very distinct reason to want

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Speaker 5: to be helpful to the police, right because he was

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Speaker 5: a suspect in a Berkeley had been arrested for a Bergley, right,

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Speaker 5: So he's sitting there going, hey, I got an idea.

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Speaker 5: This is a crime everybody's talking about in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 5: If I can be helpful to them, they'll be helpful

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Speaker 5: to me. He doesn't care about you, Andre, So he's like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: let me just try to give up some bogus information

293
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Speaker 5: and tell a story that they're going to want to hear,

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Speaker 5: and then maybe they'll let me go home.

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Speaker 4: And what's interesting is right after that description, police go

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Speaker 4: and get Andre to conduct a lineup. Andre voluntarily goes

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Speaker 4: back to the police station. They do a lineup, Jerry

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Speaker 4: Williams identifies Andre. Andre wasn't arrested, And what we later

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Speaker 4: found out, which was presented a trial, was that the

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Speaker 4: DA directed the cops not to arrest Andre even though

301
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Speaker 4: he had just been identified in a lineup, and the

302
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Speaker 4: document that we retrieved said, according to the DA's office,

303
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Speaker 4: there was insufficient evidence to support an arrest. So clearly

304
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Speaker 4: there was some concern about this man's reliability. Now, this

305
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Speaker 4: man was the star witness for the prosecution at trial.

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Speaker 4: Jerry Williams was a crack addicted drug dealer with thirty

307
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Speaker 4: prior arrests, that is the only witness. So what happens

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Speaker 4: after this lineup where Andre gets to go home. Jerry Williams,

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Speaker 4: who has this burglary arrest, is released the next day

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Speaker 4: and he voluntarily offers to help police find Popeye, this

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Speaker 4: other witness that he claims witness this crime. So, after

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Speaker 4: many efforts, they find Popeye. Popeye comes in, they bring

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Speaker 4: Andre into do a second lineup again. Andre voluntarily comes

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Speaker 4: in and Popeye identifies Andre in the lineup and he

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Speaker 4: is ultimately arrested.

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Speaker 9: Now, what is again not.

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Speaker 4: Addressed a trial is the fact that Popeye had initially

318
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 4: chosen someone else out of the lineup, not Andre. Now,

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Speaker 4: Popeye never testifies at Andre's first trial, never testifies at

320
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Speaker 4: his second trial. The only person who testifies is Jerry Williams.

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Speaker 5: Who's the guy who has the motivation to want to

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Speaker 5: lie because he walked out on his thirty first arrest. Yeah, Jerry,

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Speaker 5: you obviously remember this like it was yesterday.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, because they didn't arrest him. He was going back

325
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Speaker 8: and forth to the precinct. But by the time he

326
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Speaker 8: did go to trial, they made sure that he didn't

327
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Speaker 8: have a cash on his leg so in front of jury,

328
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Speaker 8: like this guy was never shot or never heard anything.

329
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Speaker 8: And when the guy said he screamed, he got shot

330
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Speaker 8: in his neck and his voice box. He couldn't even

331
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Speaker 8: he couldn't even barely talk. So it was impossible for

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Speaker 8: him to scream.

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Speaker 5: It's impossible for him. The scream was impossible for him

334
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Speaker 5: to commit. The murder, was impossible for to drag the body.

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Speaker 5: All of it was impossible.

336
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Speaker 7: So Fergus the police name. He kept going, I'm gonna

337
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Speaker 7: give you a lot of tech detests. I'm gonna give

338
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,159
Speaker 7: you a lot of tech detests. He never gave it

339
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Speaker 7: to me. He talked about don't skip town. He asked me,

340
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Speaker 7: don't skip Tom Judge. Study, going back to the precinct study,

341
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Speaker 7: going back then. He said to one me, look at

342
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Speaker 7: a muck shop book. Right said, you know him, I'll

343
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Speaker 7: let you go. But he never did. He never did

344
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Speaker 7: show me a work. He tried to make me pick

345
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:22,639
Speaker 7: somebody of the muck shop but trying to do the

346
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Speaker 7: same thing to me what they did to him. Cause

347
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Speaker 7: then they cussed him. Oh, I picked him out of

348
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Speaker 7: the muck shop book. He said, they'll let me go

349
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Speaker 7: while I went in and I said, I didn't do thathing,

350
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Speaker 7: I didn't do nothing.

351
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Speaker 5: So I kept on.

352
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Speaker 7: Going there, go on there, don't skip time, mister acher.

353
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Speaker 7: They came, came, got me. Did I come back from

354
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Speaker 7: from my friend from a walk to my mother house?

355
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Speaker 7: From Shirley House?

356
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Speaker 3: Right?

357
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Speaker 7: So the corse ran up on me, locked me up again.

358
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Speaker 7: He said, you're on the rest. You about to shoot

359
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,040
Speaker 7: me from in the back, Furgus said, And I said

360
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,679
Speaker 7: for what for the same case. They let me go,

361
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Speaker 7: and then they came back and gave me thirty days

362
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 7: lady for son n ain't do now.

363
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Speaker 4: One of the main questions at trial was what happened

364
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:06,399
Speaker 4: to Jerry Williams's burglary charge exactly? Now. Jerry Williams was,

365
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,120
Speaker 4: by any sane estimate, a clearly unreliable witness. He had

366
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,920
Speaker 4: thirty prior arrests, He had twenty prior convictions. He went

367
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,800
Speaker 4: through every single disposition of every prior conviction he had

368
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,679
Speaker 4: from the seventies up until the day he testified. He

369
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,680
Speaker 4: remembered the disposition of every single prior arrest except that burglary.

370
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,879
Speaker 4: So the judge asked the assistant district attorney, what happened

371
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,560
Speaker 4: to that burglary charge, and she claimed that he was

372
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,400
Speaker 4: arraigned on it and she would check during the recess

373
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Speaker 4: to figure out what happened to the charge. There was

374
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,520
Speaker 4: nothing on the record to show that she ever checked,

375
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,520
Speaker 4: and so there was a question as to whether he

376
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,320
Speaker 4: got a deal in exchange for testifying for the state

377
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,840
Speaker 4: in this high profile murder, and he testified a trial.

378
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:51,800
Speaker 9: He never got a deal.

379
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Speaker 4: What was uncovered by one of our Cardozo law students

380
00:18:55,359 --> 00:19:00,440
Speaker 4: after the Innocence Project took on Andre's case is that

381
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,720
Speaker 4: that arrest for that burglary was what's called three forty three.

382
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,159
Speaker 4: Now we don't really know what three forty three means,

383
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,199
Speaker 4: but there was some decision made by somebody not to

384
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,960
Speaker 4: go forward with that arrest. And so when we went

385
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,920
Speaker 4: to the conviction Review Unit at the Brooklyn DIA's office,

386
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 4: that was one of the things we wanted them to

387
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 4: look up. What they ultimately ended up finding was something

388
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,120
Speaker 4: very different that was withheld from Andrea's attorney. But that

389
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,439
Speaker 4: was a very significant loophole or gap at the trial

390
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,920
Speaker 4: is what happened to that burglary charge. Because this man

391
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,280
Speaker 4: could not, from a distance of forty feet have seen

392
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,000
Speaker 4: someone commit this crime. And certainly to claim that he

393
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 4: heard Andre, a man that he conceded he never had

394
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 4: a conversation with, to claim that he screamed from a

395
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,920
Speaker 4: distance of forty feet step the f off makes hardly

396
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,200
Speaker 4: any sense when Andre could barely speak at his own

397
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,199
Speaker 4: trial because he had just been recently shot in the

398
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 4: throat and was recovering from a gunshot wound. And so

399
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 4: Jerry Williams claimed that he recognized Andre by his voice

400
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,199
Speaker 4: even though he had never once spoken to him, and

401
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 4: that he could hear him scream from a distance of

402
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,679
Speaker 4: forty feet even though Andre was barely audible at his

403
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 4: own trial a year later.

404
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 5: These are things that you would think you would hear

405
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 5: about in a third world country, and this is New

406
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 5: York City.

407
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 4: It is frightening how easy it is to convict an

408
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 4: innocent person in the United States.

409
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 5: I mean, it doesn't get much worse than this. So

410
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,920
Speaker 5: let's go to the trial because this is, first of all,

411
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 5: it's so troubling because your entire life is at stake

412
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,880
Speaker 5: in this trial, and the government's entire case rests on

413
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,159
Speaker 5: one witness because there is no other evidence, there's no

414
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,880
Speaker 5: physical evidence connecting you to the crime. Tell me about that.

415
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,360
Speaker 3: I love the Sworders, God form my life.

416
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,879
Speaker 7: I didn't even know he knew how he said he

417
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 7: used our lookout, he'd do girls in the Dulstein all that.

418
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 4: Jerry Williams is who Andre's talking about. And Jerry Williams

419
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,439
Speaker 4: even at the he testified that he had all these

420
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 4: prior convictions and one of them included throwing a girl

421
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 4: in the dumpster.

422
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 5: This guy, Jerry Williams, is a terrible, terrible character. He's

423
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,680
Speaker 5: a blight on society, right, I mean, thirty arrests. It's

424
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 5: almost comical to think of somebody being arrested that in

425
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 5: twenty convictions, and here he was on number thirty one

426
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,200
Speaker 5: and one of them included throwing a woman in a dumpster.

427
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 4: And he also claimed to have seen Andre, a man

428
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,639
Speaker 4: that he admitted he just knew from the neighborhood. But

429
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 4: he did not recognize that the woman on the ground

430
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 4: was his friend who he had used in five prior

431
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 4: burglaries as a lookout. So how is that conceivable?

432
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, Andre, dad, have you seen you will go speak

433
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 3: to the police.

434
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 5: And say asinom yeah, And once.

435
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 3: You get caught with a burglary and put it on.

436
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,680
Speaker 5: Now, what's weird about this too, is that it would

437
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 5: seem like this crime would be solvable, right when you

438
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 5: have a crime of this extreme violent nature. This is

439
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,120
Speaker 5: a crime that's so personal and so vicious that it's

440
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 5: not on alow likely that the perpetrator knew the victim,

441
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,199
Speaker 5: because otherwise who would do something like this? I mean,

442
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 5: this is a very rare situation.

443
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,959
Speaker 4: And the question as to who would do something like this,

444
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 4: There is a viable claim that Jerry Williams was the

445
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 4: real perpetrator. The victim was actually known to exchange sex

446
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 4: for drugs that was presented at trial. Jerry Williams was

447
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 4: a crack addict and he could be as good for

448
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 4: this crime as anyone else.

449
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 5: And they say he knew people in the dumpster, that

450
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,160
Speaker 5: would be a tip off. I mean, as an American,

451
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 5: as a human being, all I can do is apologize

452
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 5: to you, Andre and to your family for what was

453
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,400
Speaker 5: done to you, because it just defies the imagination how

454
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 5: people who we're paying with our tax dollars to do

455
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 5: their jobs could fail you so totally on every level,

456
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 5: and fail society too, because this guy was allowed to

457
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 5: remain free to prey on somebody else's sister, mother, daughter, brother,

458
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 5: what anybody right, Jerry?

459
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, And then I think when they off you fourty seven,

460
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 8: they offered me a forty nine year, they offer him

461
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 8: a forty nine for a murder case. And I remember

462
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 8: my mother in court was like, because he had spent

463
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 8: that year, he actually did twenty six years in jail,

464
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 8: because he had spent one year on Rackets Island with

465
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 8: two trials, and he did twenty five.

466
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 3: Years up north.

467
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 8: And I remember my mother was like, orangre, you've been

468
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 8: in here almost a year. Just take the four to nine,

469
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 8: she said, because I'm not gonna be living in twenty

470
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 8: five years when you get home. He looked at my mother,

471
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 8: he said, Ma, I did not do it.

472
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 5: And see, let's talk about that for a second too,

473
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 5: because there's no prosecutor that's gonna look at this case,

474
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 5: which is so violent and so vile, what was done

475
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 5: to this for a woman, and say, you know what,

476
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 5: we let this guy out in a few years, we're

477
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 5: gonna give you a good deal. Nobody's giving you a

478
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 5: good deal if they think you actually did it. That's

479
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 5: offensive as well.

480
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, I said, mom, I hate to say the K

481
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 7: door and I think that's why I got PTSD today

482
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 7: because I think about one. My mother told me and

483
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 7: she wasn't living when I came home. But I wasn't

484
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 7: no take, I said, Mom, Sally, you doing that bothered

485
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 7: me reck to the day.

486
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,959
Speaker 5: So the trial finally comes. E've been in Riker's Island,

487
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 5: which is hell on earth for a year and finally

488
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 5: your day in court. And how long did the trial last?

489
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 3: Did the second one? It didn't last?

490
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 9: Wrong, It was just a couple of days.

491
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 7: A couple of days and a speedy Trialevernue courtland. I

492
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 7: think I don't know speak.

493
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 3: I never been to jail.

494
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 4: The witnesses were the prosecutions one and only claimed witness,

495
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 4: Jerry Williams, the detective, the victim's mother who wasn't there,

496
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 4: didn't witness the crime. And you have his defense attorneys

497
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 4: who even the Brooklyn DA's office, the chief of the

498
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 4: Conviction Review Unit got up in open court on the

499
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 4: day of exoneration and said the fact that they did

500
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 4: not order and present his medical records was unconscionable.

501
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 5: It is unconscionable. And so Andre when the jury went out, right,

502
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 5: and were you thinking at that time, well, they're going

503
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 5: to see the obvious truth, and they're going to know

504
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 5: I'm innocent, and they're going to come back in and

505
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 5: call me innocent and declare me innocent.

506
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 3: I mean, I always knew I was coming home. I

507
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: never give up. I never give up.

508
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 7: The police try to get me sign a statement, Ferguson,

509
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 7: I never did.

510
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: My mother said, boy, I don'tkay what you do. You

511
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 3: don't sign that. You don't know how to read it.

512
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 4: Right. When every system and every agency that you come

513
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 4: into contact with fails you, which is the prosecution, the police,

514
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 4: and your own defense attorneys, who you put your life

515
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 4: in their hands, how do you expect the jury to quit.

516
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 5: So the jury convicted you, and you were sentenced to

517
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 5: life twenty five years of life, which is really a

518
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 5: life sentence because unless you admit guilt, you're not coming

519
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 5: home anyway. That's a crazy thing in our system. You

520
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 5: plead innocent, they send you prison, you put guilty, they

521
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 5: send you home, right. I mean that's an oversimplification, but

522
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 5: it's kind of a crazy paradox. So you got convicted.

523
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 5: I mean that moment must have been the worst moment

524
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 5: of your life.

525
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 7: Oh man, yes, it was, you know, I just can

526
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 7: hardly cry. I couldn't cry because I couldn't bleed.

527
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: It lied to me.

528
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 7: I told him the judge, I'll be back because I

529
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 7: didn'tdure it. They said you got any things to say?

530
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 7: I said, I'll be back. I didn't do it. At

531
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 7: the end of the court.

532
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 4: And the judge was actually trying to assist at the

533
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 4: trial because his own defense attorneys were doing such a

534
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 4: shitty job.

535
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 8: I was in court when the judge said twenty five

536
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 8: years of life. My brother said I didn't do it,

537
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 8: and it judge looked at him and said.

538
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 5: I didn't do it neither. The judge said.

539
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 3: Judge said I didn't do it neither.

540
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 8: What the hell I swear if my brother told the

541
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 8: judge he said, Yahn, I didn't do this.

542
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 3: He said, well, I didn't do it, just like that.

543
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 5: That sounds insane. So Andre, you're in prison for decades

544
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 5: for a crime he didn't commit. Dealing with all the

545
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 5: difficulties related to your physical issues and other things, you know,

546
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 5: they haven't been shot, you have your your disabilities learning otherwise.

547
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 5: I'm just trying to understand because I'm always amazed by

548
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 5: people like yourself and how you manage to go through

549
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,959
Speaker 5: this unbelievable ordeal and still come out on top and

550
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 5: still maintain, like I said, just survive in prison. I

551
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 5: know you were stabbed in prison right right behind the ear.

552
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 7: I got it sorted a lot by police because of

553
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 7: my cads. I can't read it right. They put me

554
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 7: the box for that. And one time they beat me

555
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 7: so bad. I hate to say that. I never told

556
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 7: her that. In Clinton, I doodo all on myself because

557
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 7: I'm gonna call them daddy, the police daddy.

558
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 3: I wouldn't call them daddy. I said, you have to

559
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 3: kill me. You know you have to kill me.

560
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 7: I'm not calling you daddy. They beat me so bad.

561
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 7: I doodo all over myself in Clinton, Jesus, they gave

562
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 7: me Greenhaven. They sought me everywhere and win. I got

563
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 7: a sort by police because I couldn't. I ain't let

564
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 7: them talk to me any kind of way, because they

565
00:27:59,320 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 7: do respect me.

566
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 5: You know.

567
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 7: They beat me up so bad. Stat beat me up.

568
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 7: And one day when son died, right Lord Andree twenty fourteen, Right,

569
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 7: I was crying. You know what they did. They gave

570
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 7: me a hound dog shot because I was crying. I

571
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 7: wasn't violent in that and it almost paralyzed me.

572
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 5: What the hell is a hound dog shot?

573
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 7: A psyche madge, the strongest one they had a hound dog.

574
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 7: I wanted to see all it some goods, you know,

575
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 7: he said, once't you just take me back to hisself?

576
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 7: He he what you do if your son died? Once

577
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 7: he all stepped up on me, but the others overrule

578
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 7: him and they gave me a hound dog shot. Oh man,

579
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 7: it just it's just sad man, because I never did

580
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 7: because I can read it right, you know, I couldn't

581
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 7: write no grievents and that, and you know they put

582
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 7: me in a box, kept on putting me in a box,

583
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 7: you know, just just being on me.

584
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 4: You know, it was difficult for Andre to express himself

585
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 4: in writing and write any.

586
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 9: Grievances in the prison.

587
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: I couldn't do.

588
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 4: It, and so it led to a lot of altercations

589
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 4: with guards because he wasn't able to file grievances. He

590
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 4: wasn't able to express himself in writing because of his

591
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 4: limited abilities to write, and so it led to a

592
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 4: lot of altercations with guards who were horrible to him.

593
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 5: I mean, it just is really, I mean, here you are,

594
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 5: your son died. Probably the worst thing that anybody could experience, ever,

595
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 5: would be to have your son die and you're in

596
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 5: prison for a crime you didn't commit. I mean, that's

597
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 5: where my head is actually exploding from this information. And

598
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 5: then instead of like actually having a human bone in

599
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 5: their body and being like, let's give this guy a

600
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 5: little bit of space or a little bit of kindness,

601
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 5: something where any human being would feel empathy for somebody

602
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 5: who lost their child, and instead they're gonna I mean,

603
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 5: I just I'm stuck for an answer.

604
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 8: Then in nineteen ninety two he was in there for

605
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 8: a couple of years. My younger brother he passed away

606
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 8: and can't cool Mexico on vacation, he drowned undertow took him.

607
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 3: And then in two.

608
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 8: Thousand and one our father passed away, and then in

609
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 8: two thousand and five our mother passed away, and in

610
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 8: twenty fourteen he lost his son. So when he got out,

611
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 8: all my father, brothers and sister passed on my father's side,

612
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 8: all my mother sisters passed except one.

613
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 3: A lot of the family was born while.

614
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 5: He was in jail, right, so you had to get

615
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 5: to know your own family exactly, all new people and

616
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 5: everything else. But Andre, so the good part of the

617
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 5: story is that you're here, right, and I want to

618
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 5: talk about how that happened and the role that the

619
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 5: Innocence Project played. It was as hopeless as it could be,

620
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 5: and then things turned around. Can you explain to me

621
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 5: how that happened?

622
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 3: My friend?

623
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 7: You know, I couldn't read the right He used to

624
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 7: always write my letter. He said, he just fell out

625
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 7: the application. He said, you always talked about I know

626
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 7: you ain't doing it. I'll tell him whatever happened to me,

627
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 7: And he did the applications, showed me how to get

628
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 7: there to the end of the project. You know, I

629
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 7: forgot his name.

630
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 4: His name is actually very ironic. His name was da

631
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 4: Andre Williams, and de Andre Williams wrote a letter to

632
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 4: the Innocence Project I believe it was two thousand and two, saying,

633
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 4: on behalf of my fellow prisoner. He can't read, he

634
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 4: can't write his family, and I would really appreciate if

635
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 4: you would look into his case. There is DNA evidence

636
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 4: that can prove his innocence. Will you please take his case?

637
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 5: Well, I'm actually looking at the letter right now and

638
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 5: it's giving me chills to think that this guy came

639
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 5: to your aid when you most needed it, and ultimately

640
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 5: the Innson's Project did take your case. So Siman talk

641
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 5: about the evidence that came out and how this led

642
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 5: to what should have been a very obvious conclusion twenty

643
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 5: five years earlier.

644
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 4: So when the Brooklyn DA's Office is Conviction and Review

645
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 4: Unit undertook this reinvestigation. This was after we had searched

646
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 4: for and I say we, but it was my predecessor,

647
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 4: Jason Craig at the Nison's Project, who searched for DNA evidence.

648
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 4: DNA was tested under the victim's fingernails. It didn't pan

649
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 4: out because no mail DNA was found. Those metal pipes

650
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 4: were for no one could find the metal pipes, and

651
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 4: so this became a non DNA investigation. And the Innocence

652
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 4: Project takes on cases, as you know, where there's DNA

653
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 4: and DNA can prove innocence. But Jason truly believed in

654
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 4: Andrea's innocence and he said, we can't close this case,

655
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 4: and he wanted to bring in a big law firm.

656
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 4: So the head of the department agreed to bring in

657
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 4: Paul Weiss, which is a fantastic Manhattan law firm. They

658
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 4: ended up doing an investigation. They did a Foyer, which

659
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 4: is a Public Act records request for the DA's file

660
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 4: and the police file. And ultimately what happened is when

661
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 4: the Brooklyn Conviction Review Unit reviewed this case, they found

662
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 4: a document and it was a document that we received

663
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 4: in the Foyer production. But the Foyer production showed just

664
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 4: that on the night Jerry Williams was arrested, he saw

665
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 4: a man in the bullpen in the precinct and he said,

666
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,479
Speaker 4: that's the guy who did that Monroe Street Park murder.

667
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 4: Andre wasn't in the precinct. Now, what the Foyer production

668
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 4: didn't give us was the cover page of that memo.

669
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 4: The DA's office found that cover page in their file

670
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 4: from nineteen ninety two. That cover page said that there

671
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 4: was a person who was called the defendant in the

672
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 4: bullpen and Jerry Williams identified him to the cop as

673
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 4: the real perp. Now, the defendant is sometimes listed as

674
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 4: unknown or in the case if the suspect is Andre Hatchet,

675
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 4: it would say Andra Hatchett, it said James Pringle. There

676
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 4: was a man in the bullpen named James Pringle, and

677
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 4: Jerry Williams pointed him out and said he did the crime.

678
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 4: So police looked up James Pringle, and we had the

679
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 4: Foyer document, but it was redacted so it didn't tell

680
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 4: us what happened. The DA's office had that document and

681
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 4: it showed that James Pringle, his incarceration records were searched

682
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 4: by the cops. He had a solid alibi because he

683
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 4: was in prison on the night of the crime. So

684
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 4: Jerry Williams points out another man as the real purp

685
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 4: of this crime who couldn't have done it because he

686
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 4: was in prison, and that was never disclosed to the defense.

687
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 4: That would have shot the man's credibility, And the DA's

688
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 4: office said even the morons who represented Andre would have

689
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 4: used that evidence to show that this man is not

690
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 4: credible because of that fact, as well as another piece

691
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 4: of evidence showing that Jerry Williams admitted that he was

692
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 4: on crack the night of the crime, which also wasn't

693
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 4: disclosed and would have showed that he committed perjury at

694
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 4: trial because he claimed that he was not on crack

695
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 4: in the night of the crime. Because of those two

696
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 4: pieces of evidence, which were not disclosed to the defense,

697
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 4: which would have cast incredible doubt on Jerry Williams's testimony,

698
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 4: this conviction was overturned because when you have a single

699
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 4: witness ID, which is the only basis for someone's conviction,

700
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 4: credibility is everything.

701
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just the whole thing is unreal. And I've

702
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 5: been doing this stuff. I mean, I've been involved in

703
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 5: this fight for almost twenty five years. And like I said,

704
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 5: when I think I've seen everything, I've run into somebody

705
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 5: like Andre and hear this story and it's just my

706
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 5: my heart hurts and it's uh, it's horrible. But Andrea,

707
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 5: so how did the exoneration happen? And what was that like?

708
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 5: Because like I said, I remember seeing your face and it.

709
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 7: Was like it was like it was like it was

710
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 7: like it was like gold because I got out of hell.

711
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 3: I got out of hell for Sunday. A dude and

712
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: this again that dude.

713
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 5: He passed away in the cell and green h avy DeAndre.

714
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 3: He passed away.

715
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 7: I used always criet to him and he said, man,

716
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 7: I'm gonna get you on. He took all my paperwork

717
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 7: my minutes. I gave all my paperwork I had because

718
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 7: I went through all the pills. Well, Deloyd, they said

719
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 7: no merit, so that means they raised no law. I

720
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 7: do know that he rained that to me all my pills.

721
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 7: I went through all of them, they said, with no

722
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 7: merit on my pills, no merit.

723
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 5: No law.

724
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 4: Andre's release from this hell is the result of a

725
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 4: collaboration of so many people who came together on his behalf,

726
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 4: starting with Andre, who never gave up because he knew

727
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 4: the truth would.

728
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 9: One day come out.

729
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 4: And his friend de Andre Williams, who is the one

730
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 4: who wrote to us pleading for us to take his

731
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 4: case on behalf of Andre, and then he himself dies

732
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 4: in prison.

733
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's that's a cruel irony. So let's fast

734
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 5: forward Andre to the day when you were actually freed

735
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 5: and released and declared innocent by the courts. And I

736
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 5: mean it's twenty six years, as Jerry said, your year

737
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 5: in jail. We can't forget that, but twenty five years

738
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 5: in prison after your conviction. So to talk about that

739
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 5: day you got your hearing and you were obviously there,

740
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:35,760
Speaker 5: I mean, you were its lawyer.

741
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 7: So yes, that day she kept on telling me, she

742
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 7: kept on talking with any for sure, yet they knew

743
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 7: the court, but they wentn't tell me though I knew

744
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 7: I was coming home because I always told my brother

745
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 7: no and my mother, no, and my daughter and my brother.

746
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 7: I'll be home one day. Bro, I all nowhere, I'm

747
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 7: coming home. I know how they't do it. I know

748
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 7: I'm coming home one day, and I know I'm gonna

749
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 7: be free. And I told them I'm gonna get z

750
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 7: already one day. I always told they won't find not

751
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 7: they do. Mama, I told you that you still my

752
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 7: brother that every time on the phone, just send me money.

753
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 7: Y'all got to come and visit me. I'll ball right.

754
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 7: I used to tell him that, just send me money.

755
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 7: I'm gonna be all right in there. And that's why

756
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 7: I used to tell him I was going through it.

757
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 7: Going through They knew I was all right, guy, I

758
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 7: got to spend all come and see me. I'm gonna

759
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 7: be all right.

760
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 4: We told Andre, please keep this quiet, because we were

761
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 4: explicitly told by the Conviction Review Unit that they were

762
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 4: very worried that this would leak. And we said, look,

763
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 4: we have to tell Andre. Of course, we have to

764
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 4: tell his family. And so we didn't have a particular

765
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 4: day and we said, Andre, do not tell anyone in prison. Meanwhile,

766
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 4: I get a call from a corrections officer and she said,

767
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 4: Andre Hatchett is going around saying you can't touch me,

768
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,439
Speaker 4: you can't touch me. I'm getting out. I'm getting out,

769
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 4: and he's creating a lot of disturbance. So I said, oh,

770
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 4: what is he doing? And she said, he's just telling

771
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 4: people I'm getting out. And I'm thinking, how is that

772
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 4: creating disturbance? And so she was describing it as he

773
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 4: was being insubordinate when he's actually not. And then she

774
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 4: whispers on the phone is he getting out?

775
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 9: And I couldn't say anything.

776
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 4: And then my colleague said, well, you may want to

777
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 4: actually tell her because she probably thinks he's crazy, thinking

778
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 4: he's gonna get out, and she doesn't actually know that

779
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 4: he is. And so I said, Andre, didn't we discuss

780
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 4: not to say anything? And he said, don't worry, I

781
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 4: won't say anything no more. And I was like, what

782
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 4: do you mean no more? You shouldn't have told it?

783
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,399
Speaker 4: He said, who was it? Is it that lady who's

784
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 4: really nosy? Why is she all up in my business?

785
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 4: So this was just, you know, a lot of excitement.

786
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 4: He couldn't sleep the night before, he couldn't sleep the

787
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 4: week before, and it was supposed to be his first

788
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 4: time on a plane.

789
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 9: I think they were concerned.

790
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 4: So they ended up bringing him on a bus because

791
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 4: they were worried what if he doesn't get on the plane,

792
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 4: what if this doesn't happen? And so you know, the

793
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 4: Brooklyn Conviction Review Units sent a couple of their star officers,

794
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 4: I think someone they have nicknamed the Angel of Mercy,

795
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 4: to go pick up Andre, bring him on a bus

796
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 4: and finally be on freedom's doorstep.

797
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, because about a week and a half before he

798
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 8: was getting ready to get out, I knew, and he

799
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 8: called me every night what day it is? What days

800
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 8: I couldn't tell him.

801
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 3: I don't even think he slept the last week he

802
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 3: was in jail. I still can't sleep. That still good

803
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 3: to be free.

804
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 5: Because you can't get that smile off your face.

805
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 7: I always smile at every picture I went to because

806
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 7: I always told him I'll be home one day. And

807
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 7: you see my mug shopping on picture. I smile since

808
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 7: the day one I've been there. The police beat me up.

809
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 7: You get my own d I report. I smiled him

810
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 7: every dingy.

811
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 9: They could never rob him of his smile. You saw the.

812
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 3: Smile and the bloody, and I was bloody.

813
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 7: My sister got pictures of me, meant to the day

814
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,919
Speaker 7: at a house that I'll sit home when they beat

815
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 7: me up, sought me, I was smiling.

816
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 5: So the day in the court twenty sixteen is not

817
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 5: that long ago, right, And even from your perspective, like

818
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 5: what did that mean to you? You'd worked on this

819
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 5: case for years, right, And obviously you got to know Andre.

820
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 5: He's such a lovely guy. His spirit is unbroken in

821
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,479
Speaker 5: spite of the fact that he's been through everything human

822
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 5: being can go through, like a Greek tragedy or something.

823
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 5: So what was that day, like you, the exoneration day?

824
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 4: I mean, the courtroom was packed, and what I loved

825
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 4: about it is that the judge when he looked at Andre,

826
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 4: Andre stood up and you can see pictures being taken

827
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 4: where people are sort of smiling, and then as Andre's speaking,

828
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 4: there's bigger smiles, and as he continues to speak, the

829
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 4: smiles get larger, and the judge was so moved himself.

830
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 4: I think that there was, you know, clapping throughout the

831
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 4: courtroom before it even finished. And then the prosecutors came

832
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 4: over to greet Andrea and to hug Andrea because they

833
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 4: were just so appalled by this. When we presented the

834
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 4: case to the Conviction Review Unit. We didn't even need

835
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 4: to sit there for more than twenty minutes, if that,

836
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 4: and we presented everything we discussed today and they were

837
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 4: deeply disturbed. They said, we're going to put this case

838
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 4: on the fast track because they knew how concerning this

839
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 4: case was. But that moment, I have to say, Andre

840
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 4: was twenty five years old and he was convicted of

841
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 4: this crime. He was released one or two months before

842
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 4: his fiftieth birthday, so he spent half his life in

843
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 4: prison for a crime he didn't commit.

844
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 5: It's astonishing, and it's just so great that you're here

845
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 5: and that you're getting your life back. And tell me

846
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 5: about that now, like, how what's going on now? What's

847
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 5: your family situation? What are you doing day to day?

848
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 3: I go to home to Federation, meant to help CircUse.

849
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 5: I got what's that PTSD?

850
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, espress on my drama. Well, I went through my losses.

851
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 7: You know, I could never get it back. I think

852
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 7: about it all the time, though, but that not to do.

853
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 7: I got to live more and I go every you know,

854
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 7: three days a week.

855
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 5: And how are you living, where you're living, who you're

856
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 5: living with.

857
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 7: I live with my brother Jerry Chevy Hatchett. I talked

858
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 7: to Martege. You know, holly kids, I got one thirty three, Wow,

859
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 7: want to be thirty four?

860
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 3: And Everca's like twenty nine.

861
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 5: Might as well shout him out. What are their names?

862
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 7: Arica elk Along Stack, Keisha Love, Kristen Spears, Lauren for

863
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 7: he passed away.

864
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 5: Do you have any grandchildren? Yes?

865
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 7: Wow, I got four grandkids, my son and the one

866
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 7: passed away and looking for his daughter. And I got

867
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 7: four grands My oldest is Swan, he'd be eighteen.

868
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 3: And I got my daughter. E got two twins, a

869
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 3: girl and the boy.

870
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 4: I was asking Andre the names because all of them came,

871
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 4: or most of them came to the exoneration. Yeah, And

872
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 4: I said, what's this guy's name? And he said, Pooky,

873
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 4: what's the other guy's name?

874
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 5: He's like, yeah, I don't know that.

875
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 3: They all new to me. You know, all my grandkids

876
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 3: is knew, everybody new to the getting the norm.

877
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 5: So you got a big family. He's surrounded by a

878
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 5: lot of love. Now, so I'm really stuck on thinking

879
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 5: about this exoneration with like so it sounds like these

880
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 5: rolling waves of excitement and enthusiasm and clapping and smiling

881
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 5: and just a celebration. Right.

882
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 4: We had to get the ceremonial courtroom because so many

883
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 4: people wanted to attend, and it was it was just

884
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 4: a triumph. It's a triumph of Andre's spirit, is a

885
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 4: triumph of a man against the system.

886
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 8: After the Designeration, we was leaving the court, everybody was

887
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 8: blowing in a cars. Remember everybody was blowing as we

888
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 8: was walking down the street because Bbq's sponsored the Designeration.

889
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 8: So everybody went to Bbq's and they sponsored everybody food

890
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 8: and everything.

891
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 5: That's great. Andre. We have a tradition here at Wrong

892
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 5: for Conviction, which is that at the end of the show,

893
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 5: I like to turn the microphone over to you for

894
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 5: any final thoughts that you have, anything you want to

895
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 5: share with the audience, just whatever is on your mind.

896
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like I was saying all the time, all the times,

897
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 7: I'll be good to anybody. Anybody need a dollar, sorry,

898
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 7: I'll give it to them. I don't care who he is.

899
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 7: You know, my mother raised like that. You see somebody

900
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 7: home your freedom, you know, I mean, I got to

901
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 7: know you. I get no help. Anybody always been like

902
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 7: their free audum. My mother used to always tell me,

903
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 7: you too, free hearty, you help too many people, you

904
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 7: know me, stuff like that. She s used to always

905
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 7: tell me that when I was a kid.

906
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 3: You know.

907
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 7: Then then I went to you know, I went went

908
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 7: to prison for Sunday. Ain't you know anything I do.

909
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 3: I own up to it. If I did it, I

910
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 3: did it. That's me.

911
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 7: I never lied to my mother or nobody, you know

912
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 7: what I mean. I don't do that a lot to people.

913
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 4: And in the court room, Mandra even said, I told

914
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 4: everyone I didn't do this, and I told you I'd

915
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 4: be coming home one day.

916
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 3: And you told everybody.

917
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 7: I always tell my brother every day, my whole family,

918
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 7: I'll be home one day. I'll be home one day.

919
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 7: I didn't I'll be home one day. Out know where.

920
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 7: She said, I'm coming to see you. I said, you

921
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 7: ain't got to come to see me, a mor You

922
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 7: ain't got this drivel all the way up here, just

923
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 7: spending of money. Send it to me, you know, I'm

924
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 7: all right. Just send me pictures. Just send me pictures.

925
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 5: Well, all I can say to you is welcome home,

926
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 5: thank you were glad you're here.

927
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 7: And can I think and I like to thank Zeima.

928
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 7: Jason Craig Barby Shack lies of Natalie believe in me,

929
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 7: ain't it no? And it helped me, I think.

930
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 5: And I'd like to also get any closing thoughts, Jerry,

931
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 5: is there anything else you want to share? Because I

932
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 5: know you went through this with your brother, your little brother,

933
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 5: like it's got to be it's got to be hard

934
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 5: on you too. Yeah.

935
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 8: It was being that I'm the oldest and ra after him.

936
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 8: I had to deal with Berry and my brother that

937
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 8: was coming back from Mexico and dealing with his situation,

938
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,240
Speaker 8: then trying to keep an eye on my mother, dealing

939
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 8: with his funeral, thinking about Andre, dealing with him, and

940
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 8: looking out for my mother. So it was it was

941
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 8: a lot just to try to for one person and

942
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 8: try to deal with so so much stuff, you know,

943
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 8: But because I knew it was impossible, my mother knew,

944
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 8: and before my mother passed away, she said, look out

945
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 8: for Andre because God knows he didn't commit that crime.

946
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 5: Same, what about you, Let's we're going to give you

947
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 5: the last word here.

948
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 4: You shouldn't have to pull your hair out and kick

949
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 4: and scream to get an innocent person out of prison

950
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 4: in this country, And like Barry Schek once said, our

951
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 4: system is disabled by the impact of class, race, and money.

952
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 4: If you are the right color, if you have money,

953
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 4: if you're from the right socioeconomic status, you get better

954
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 4: results from the system. If you're the wrong color and

955
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,760
Speaker 4: you're poor, you don't. And that is just a fact

956
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 4: of life in our criminal justice system, in the Land

957
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 4: of the Free.

958
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 7: I think it's a lot of innocent people in jail

959
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 7: like me because I hear a lot of stories, a

960
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 7: lot of stories day and Joy, I know there's a

961
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 7: lot of innocent people in jail.

962
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 3: I know it is one of them.

963
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 5: There are, and we're going to keep fighting until our

964
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 5: last breath to make sure that we get as many

965
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 5: of them out as we can. So I just want

966
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 5: to thank all of you for being here and sharing

967
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 5: your story. Seem As Safety and senior staff attorney at

968
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 5: the Innocence Project, thank you.

969
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 9: Thank you, and.

970
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 5: Jerry Hatchett, older brother and protector, and thank you for

971
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 5: coming in and sharing your thoughts and Andre. What can

972
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 5: I say, Man, it's great to see you here and

973
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 5: we're just so happy you're home, and we're going to

974
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 5: keep fighting and that's all we can do. Don't forget

975
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 5: to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.

976
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 5: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

977
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 5: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in

978
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 5: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

979
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 5: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn

980
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 5: how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank

981
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,280
Speaker 5: our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music

982
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 5: in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer

983
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 5: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at

984
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,760
Speaker 5: Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful

985
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 5: Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for

986
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 5: Good podcas Guests and association with Signal Company Number one