1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,276 --> 00:00:23,076 Speaker 2: One day, not long ago, I went to visit the 3 00:00:23,156 --> 00:00:28,916 Speaker 2: Lawrenceville School just outside Princeton, New Jersey, a very old, 4 00:00:29,036 --> 00:00:35,076 Speaker 2: prestigious private school, leafy campus, Gothic this and that. I 5 00:00:35,116 --> 00:00:37,476 Speaker 2: asked one of their deans could I come and meet 6 00:00:37,476 --> 00:00:41,876 Speaker 2: with some students? She said yes, Does everyone have a 7 00:00:41,876 --> 00:00:45,116 Speaker 2: piece of paper and pen? The dean put together a 8 00:00:45,116 --> 00:00:48,156 Speaker 2: group of twenty kids. We met in a conference room 9 00:00:48,196 --> 00:00:50,676 Speaker 2: looking out on the campus lawn. On a scale of 10 00:00:50,676 --> 00:00:52,836 Speaker 2: one at ten, don't put your name on it. I 11 00:00:52,836 --> 00:00:56,836 Speaker 2: would like you to rank your happiness with the Lawrenceville 12 00:00:56,876 --> 00:00:59,556 Speaker 2: School's current electoral process. 13 00:01:00,076 --> 00:01:01,636 Speaker 1: Ten is you think it's perfect? 14 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:05,876 Speaker 2: One is you think it's maybe time to bring in 15 00:01:05,956 --> 00:01:13,076 Speaker 2: Adam Adam Adam Cronkwright. He was the reason I was there. Okay, 16 00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:18,236 Speaker 2: hi everyone, thanks for coming. My name is Malcolm Babo, 17 00:01:18,636 --> 00:01:21,636 Speaker 2: so you as you know, I am a writer and 18 00:01:21,716 --> 00:01:29,476 Speaker 2: I have a podcast called Revision's History. That's how the 19 00:01:29,516 --> 00:01:32,716 Speaker 2: afternoon began. I said, I wanted to run an idea 20 00:01:32,796 --> 00:01:35,836 Speaker 2: by them, an idea field tested by this person. I 21 00:01:35,996 --> 00:01:40,476 Speaker 2: just met Adam kronkright about talent and chance and how 22 00:01:40,516 --> 00:01:44,316 Speaker 2: we choose others to lead us. And I would encourage 23 00:01:44,356 --> 00:01:47,876 Speaker 2: you all to be. If you think I'm crazy, you 24 00:01:47,876 --> 00:01:52,196 Speaker 2: should say, Malcolm, you're crazy. Maybe this idea could change 25 00:01:52,196 --> 00:01:54,116 Speaker 2: a lot about what's wrong with the world right now, 26 00:01:54,356 --> 00:01:59,356 Speaker 2: or maybe not. Revisionist history is about the overlooked and misunderstood. 27 00:01:59,876 --> 00:02:03,036 Speaker 2: Usually I decide what belongs in either of those categories. 28 00:02:03,956 --> 00:02:06,476 Speaker 2: This time, I thought I'd just run Adam's idea by 29 00:02:06,516 --> 00:02:14,556 Speaker 2: the students of Lawrenceville and that them decide. All this 30 00:02:14,676 --> 00:02:17,396 Speaker 2: had to do with the way they elected their student council. 31 00:02:18,116 --> 00:02:21,876 Speaker 2: I thought they should call a constitutional convention and start over. 32 00:02:22,796 --> 00:02:25,076 Speaker 2: There is no right answer or wrong answer, but I 33 00:02:25,116 --> 00:02:27,276 Speaker 2: want to make a case for something and see how 34 00:02:27,756 --> 00:02:32,116 Speaker 2: that possibly relates to the way you guys do things 35 00:02:32,156 --> 00:02:36,396 Speaker 2: here at Lawrenceville. They listened to Adam's idea argued about 36 00:02:36,436 --> 00:02:39,116 Speaker 2: it for close to two hours. I'll be honest, I 37 00:02:39,156 --> 00:02:42,156 Speaker 2: didn't think I'd get anywhere. The whole student council was 38 00:02:42,156 --> 00:02:44,636 Speaker 2: there as well, all people who had profited from the 39 00:02:44,716 --> 00:02:48,636 Speaker 2: Lawrenceville electoral status quo. And what was wrong with the 40 00:02:48,636 --> 00:02:54,076 Speaker 2: status quo in theory, not much. Lawrenceville elected its leaders 41 00:02:54,276 --> 00:02:58,796 Speaker 2: through the perfect democratic system, campaign speeches, open elections. Their 42 00:02:58,796 --> 00:03:00,716 Speaker 2: constitution might as well have been drawn up by the 43 00:03:00,756 --> 00:03:03,436 Speaker 2: founding Fathers. For all I know, one of the Founding 44 00:03:03,436 --> 00:03:08,876 Speaker 2: fathers went to Lawrenceville. But then at the end of 45 00:03:08,876 --> 00:03:13,436 Speaker 2: the day afternoon, I said, okay, now that I've given 46 00:03:13,436 --> 00:03:16,676 Speaker 2: you an alternative, how happy are you with what you have? 47 00:03:17,716 --> 00:03:20,796 Speaker 2: Scale of one to ten. One is totally miserable with 48 00:03:20,836 --> 00:03:24,276 Speaker 2: the status quo, and ten is delighted. Everything's perfect. 49 00:03:25,196 --> 00:03:27,276 Speaker 1: I want to see your number, rip it off and 50 00:03:27,676 --> 00:03:29,316 Speaker 1: hand it to me. Open to day. 51 00:03:36,036 --> 00:03:38,476 Speaker 2: As the students handed in their little slips of paper, 52 00:03:38,996 --> 00:03:42,876 Speaker 2: I glanced at a few. I was taken aback. Lawrenceville 53 00:03:42,956 --> 00:03:47,276 Speaker 2: had the perfect democratic system, and upon reflection, upon exposure 54 00:03:47,316 --> 00:03:50,476 Speaker 2: to a little of Adam kronk Write's subversion, there were 55 00:03:50,516 --> 00:03:52,516 Speaker 2: a lot of students in that room who decided they 56 00:03:52,556 --> 00:03:55,316 Speaker 2: didn't like it anymore. I told them I'd do an 57 00:03:55,316 --> 00:04:02,516 Speaker 2: official tally later after I got home. But there's some 58 00:04:02,716 --> 00:04:08,036 Speaker 2: unhappiness in this room, and if they seem discontented with 59 00:04:08,116 --> 00:04:12,116 Speaker 2: democracy in the gilded corridors of the Lawrenceville School, I 60 00:04:12,116 --> 00:04:21,476 Speaker 2: can only imagine what it's like elsewhere. I first ran 61 00:04:21,516 --> 00:04:25,836 Speaker 2: across Adam Kronkwrte online. I was just rummaging around Google 62 00:04:25,876 --> 00:04:28,236 Speaker 2: one day, and what he was doing. Struck me is 63 00:04:28,276 --> 00:04:31,836 Speaker 2: so interesting that I tracked him down cold called him. 64 00:04:32,476 --> 00:04:35,476 Speaker 2: Are you ever in New York City? This was November. 65 00:04:35,916 --> 00:04:38,916 Speaker 2: He said yes, he'd be there in February. So he 66 00:04:38,996 --> 00:04:41,556 Speaker 2: settled on a date and he came to my apartment. 67 00:04:42,236 --> 00:04:47,156 Speaker 2: Young guy, beard, big backpack, hiking boots. So tell me, actually, 68 00:04:47,196 --> 00:04:50,236 Speaker 2: before we get into the question, where are you from. 69 00:04:50,716 --> 00:04:53,396 Speaker 3: I'm from just outside of Syracuse, New York. Yeah, so 70 00:04:53,476 --> 00:04:54,236 Speaker 3: central New York. 71 00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:56,956 Speaker 1: How did you end up in Bolivia? 72 00:04:57,156 --> 00:05:00,076 Speaker 2: Coach of Bamba to be more precise, a mid size 73 00:05:00,116 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 2: city in the mountains of central Bolivia. It turned out 74 00:05:03,636 --> 00:05:07,676 Speaker 2: to be a long story that starts in Canada, across Lake, 75 00:05:07,756 --> 00:05:09,476 Speaker 2: Ontario from his home town. 76 00:05:09,876 --> 00:05:11,676 Speaker 3: I remember where I was when I thought of the idea, 77 00:05:11,796 --> 00:05:15,836 Speaker 3: Like you know, where were you I was. I was 78 00:05:15,876 --> 00:05:22,516 Speaker 3: outside Victoria Hall, walking on on Queen's campus and it 79 00:05:22,596 --> 00:05:23,116 Speaker 3: was spring. 80 00:05:23,716 --> 00:05:26,796 Speaker 2: It was two thousand and nine. Adam was finishing college 81 00:05:26,796 --> 00:05:30,396 Speaker 2: at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario. He wanted to be 82 00:05:30,436 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 2: a politician. He had, as he puts it, a pretty 83 00:05:33,876 --> 00:05:35,156 Speaker 2: big hero complex. 84 00:05:35,596 --> 00:05:38,956 Speaker 3: He was save the world and coming to terms with 85 00:05:39,076 --> 00:05:42,916 Speaker 3: this idea that, like you know, be difficult to get 86 00:05:42,956 --> 00:05:45,276 Speaker 3: to the heights of power without haveting to make some 87 00:05:45,356 --> 00:05:50,676 Speaker 3: serious compromises externally internally, and you know, so then I 88 00:05:50,716 --> 00:05:52,436 Speaker 3: was kind of like, Okay, well what am I going 89 00:05:52,476 --> 00:05:53,516 Speaker 3: to do? What are we going to do? 90 00:05:54,116 --> 00:05:57,716 Speaker 2: He began to read history, political science, turned it over 91 00:05:57,756 --> 00:05:59,876 Speaker 2: in his mind, looking for a big idea. 92 00:06:00,436 --> 00:06:03,316 Speaker 3: This is going to you know, right, all the wrongs. 93 00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:06,276 Speaker 3: But I wasn't that involved in anything. 94 00:06:06,836 --> 00:06:10,356 Speaker 2: He was more of a dreamer than a doer. Adam graduated. 95 00:06:10,596 --> 00:06:13,716 Speaker 2: The world was in a financial crisis. Occupy Wall Street 96 00:06:13,756 --> 00:06:16,036 Speaker 2: was one of the protest movements that grew up in response. 97 00:06:21,996 --> 00:06:24,396 Speaker 2: There was a tense city of activists in Szubcatti Park 98 00:06:24,436 --> 00:06:27,116 Speaker 2: in Lower Manhattan. Adam decided to go down to New 99 00:06:27,196 --> 00:06:31,036 Speaker 2: York and join them. There were working panels and panel discussions, 100 00:06:31,316 --> 00:06:34,876 Speaker 2: and one speaker in particular stuck with him, an activist 101 00:06:34,876 --> 00:06:38,676 Speaker 2: from Bolivia who talked about an epic struggle there over water. 102 00:06:39,796 --> 00:06:43,276 Speaker 2: Adam lived in Subcatti Park for five weeks until everyone 103 00:06:43,356 --> 00:06:48,436 Speaker 2: was evicted by the NYPD. His experience with Occupy left 104 00:06:48,516 --> 00:06:53,636 Speaker 2: him frustrated. He understood what they were fighting for, but 105 00:06:53,756 --> 00:06:57,636 Speaker 2: not how. There was no how in Occupy. They didn't 106 00:06:57,676 --> 00:06:59,836 Speaker 2: have a plan that seemed like it could actually reform 107 00:06:59,916 --> 00:07:03,916 Speaker 2: the systems that had failed during the financial crisis. Adam 108 00:07:03,956 --> 00:07:07,076 Speaker 2: moved to Brooklyn, slept on someone's couch, and all the 109 00:07:07,116 --> 00:07:10,596 Speaker 2: while kept skyping with his new friend Bolivia, the water 110 00:07:10,716 --> 00:07:12,516 Speaker 2: activist Marcella Olivella. 111 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:15,316 Speaker 3: I kind of shared with her that I was feeling 112 00:07:15,316 --> 00:07:17,596 Speaker 3: a bit burnt out, disillusion from what I was seeing, 113 00:07:17,596 --> 00:07:19,236 Speaker 3: and she said, well, yeah, I come down to Bolivia 114 00:07:19,276 --> 00:07:21,356 Speaker 3: and check out social moments there. 115 00:07:21,996 --> 00:07:25,876 Speaker 2: So he did Syracuse to Kingston, to Zuccotti Park to Bolivia. 116 00:07:26,236 --> 00:07:28,356 Speaker 2: He made his way to coach A Bomba and there 117 00:07:28,396 --> 00:07:31,596 Speaker 2: he met Marcella's brother, Oscar, who runs a foundation. 118 00:07:32,156 --> 00:07:35,196 Speaker 3: So I was working with them for a while, and 119 00:07:35,236 --> 00:07:37,916 Speaker 3: then Oscar one day he was in the car and 120 00:07:37,916 --> 00:07:40,076 Speaker 3: he's asking me, what are you into, you know? And 121 00:07:40,116 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 3: so I started telling him about democratic lotteries and he 122 00:07:44,556 --> 00:07:45,516 Speaker 3: had never heard of the. 123 00:07:45,436 --> 00:07:53,076 Speaker 2: Concept democratic lotteries. That's Adam's idea, replace elections with lotteries. 124 00:07:53,676 --> 00:07:57,036 Speaker 2: Adam tells Oscar about it. Oscar says, we could test 125 00:07:57,076 --> 00:08:10,756 Speaker 2: it in the schools. They sign up a rural elementary 126 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:13,716 Speaker 2: school and two high schools, a night school and a 127 00:08:13,756 --> 00:08:17,116 Speaker 2: regular high school, and Adam sells them on this new 128 00:08:17,116 --> 00:08:23,636 Speaker 2: way of picking the student council. Anyone who wanted to 129 00:08:23,636 --> 00:08:26,156 Speaker 2: be in the lottery put their name forward, and then 130 00:08:26,196 --> 00:08:28,956 Speaker 2: the whole school gathered in the gym to hear the results. 131 00:08:29,396 --> 00:08:33,316 Speaker 3: We wanted something that was very visual that could generate buzz, 132 00:08:34,156 --> 00:08:39,036 Speaker 3: and so they had some clay pots and we used 133 00:08:39,076 --> 00:08:41,756 Speaker 3: faba beans as a crop that they grow there. They're 134 00:08:41,956 --> 00:08:44,356 Speaker 3: kind of the biggest beans you can find, and so 135 00:08:44,556 --> 00:08:47,156 Speaker 3: we had two colors, green and purple. The students would 136 00:08:47,156 --> 00:08:48,956 Speaker 3: put fava beans in the pot and they'd cover it 137 00:08:48,996 --> 00:08:53,236 Speaker 3: with an aguayoun, a traditional cloth, so that it's from 138 00:08:53,276 --> 00:08:55,716 Speaker 3: there and it was also visually beautiful. 139 00:08:56,716 --> 00:08:59,316 Speaker 2: If there were two hundred students running for eight student 140 00:08:59,396 --> 00:09:02,396 Speaker 2: council positions, they would put one hundred and ninety two 141 00:09:02,516 --> 00:09:05,636 Speaker 2: green fava beans in the pot and eight purple ones. 142 00:09:06,356 --> 00:09:12,556 Speaker 2: Then all the candidates would line up. The kid reaches 143 00:09:12,596 --> 00:09:14,996 Speaker 2: in reaches under the cloth. Yeah, grabs a bean. 144 00:09:15,116 --> 00:09:15,636 Speaker 3: Yeah. 145 00:09:15,836 --> 00:09:16,596 Speaker 1: Do they hold it up? 146 00:09:16,636 --> 00:09:18,716 Speaker 3: If it's purple, they hold it up. If it's purple 147 00:09:18,796 --> 00:09:20,836 Speaker 3: or green, they hold They're supposed to hold it up 148 00:09:20,916 --> 00:09:27,516 Speaker 3: so the school can see. 149 00:09:28,436 --> 00:09:32,676 Speaker 2: No campaigning, no speeches or posters, no glad handing, no 150 00:09:32,836 --> 00:09:36,756 Speaker 2: ballots no recounts. The whole selection was over in twenty minutes. 151 00:09:37,036 --> 00:09:39,796 Speaker 2: Those who picked out the purple fava beans were on 152 00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:46,796 Speaker 2: student council. Done. Now, I know that sounds like a 153 00:09:46,836 --> 00:09:49,356 Speaker 2: crazy idea. You would never go for that, would you? 154 00:09:51,516 --> 00:10:07,916 Speaker 2: Or would you? Adam KRONKWRIGHTE learned three important things from 155 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:11,116 Speaker 2: his work on school lottery in Bolivia. I'm going to 156 00:10:11,196 --> 00:10:13,996 Speaker 2: call them kronk Right's laws. None of them I think 157 00:10:14,276 --> 00:10:20,316 Speaker 2: are obvious beforehand, at least they were not obvious to him. First, numbers, 158 00:10:20,836 --> 00:10:25,196 Speaker 2: as in number of candidates, typically what percentage of the 159 00:10:25,276 --> 00:10:27,916 Speaker 2: kids want to be part of the lottery. 160 00:10:28,036 --> 00:10:30,516 Speaker 3: It varies by the school. Yeah, it varies by the school. 161 00:10:30,556 --> 00:10:34,196 Speaker 3: And so at the night high school, you know, these 162 00:10:34,276 --> 00:10:37,196 Speaker 3: kids often work even on Saturdays, like they got a 163 00:10:37,196 --> 00:10:40,876 Speaker 3: full schedule, So we would usually get between twenty and 164 00:10:40,876 --> 00:10:45,316 Speaker 3: thirty students who are volunteering for like twelve spots. Right, 165 00:10:45,356 --> 00:10:49,756 Speaker 3: So it wasn't a huge, huge turnout. And then at 166 00:10:49,836 --> 00:10:53,436 Speaker 3: the like rural K through eight school, it was literally 167 00:10:53,516 --> 00:10:57,996 Speaker 3: like every student that could participate participated in every lottery. 168 00:10:58,116 --> 00:11:01,796 Speaker 3: And then you know, at another school we worked out 169 00:11:01,876 --> 00:11:04,596 Speaker 3: later on. It was an urban high school, but in 170 00:11:04,636 --> 00:11:09,636 Speaker 3: the morning you know there you had at least half 171 00:11:09,676 --> 00:11:11,036 Speaker 3: of the school. 172 00:11:10,836 --> 00:11:13,956 Speaker 2: After the student council members finished their time in office. 173 00:11:14,236 --> 00:11:17,836 Speaker 2: Adam always asks a simple question, would you have run 174 00:11:18,356 --> 00:11:20,916 Speaker 2: if we had done things the old way with campaigns 175 00:11:20,956 --> 00:11:21,556 Speaker 2: and speeches. 176 00:11:22,476 --> 00:11:26,156 Speaker 3: It's about three quarters who say no right away? 177 00:11:26,276 --> 00:11:27,076 Speaker 1: Why do they say no? 178 00:11:28,796 --> 00:11:30,916 Speaker 3: Well, let's say that nobody would have voted for me. 179 00:11:31,356 --> 00:11:33,356 Speaker 3: I was new in the school, didn't have a lot 180 00:11:33,396 --> 00:11:36,796 Speaker 3: of friends. You know, I would not want to run 181 00:11:36,796 --> 00:11:39,196 Speaker 3: a campaign, you know, and ask people to vote for me. 182 00:11:39,916 --> 00:11:40,116 Speaker 4: You know. 183 00:11:40,316 --> 00:11:43,916 Speaker 3: It's the things that you can kind of guess are impediments. 184 00:11:44,236 --> 00:11:47,596 Speaker 2: They liked serving in office. They just didn't want to 185 00:11:47,676 --> 00:11:52,156 Speaker 2: run for office. The demands of the campaign were filtering 186 00:11:52,156 --> 00:11:54,756 Speaker 2: out all kinds of people who would otherwise have been 187 00:11:54,876 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 2: very interested in student council politics. Overwhelmingly those who win 188 00:11:59,836 --> 00:12:02,916 Speaker 2: the lottery one year in fact run again the next. 189 00:12:03,276 --> 00:12:05,556 Speaker 3: So yeah, they tend to line back up. But when 190 00:12:05,596 --> 00:12:07,996 Speaker 3: we ask them, you know, it'd be normal elections, would 191 00:12:07,996 --> 00:12:10,116 Speaker 3: you have done it? The majority of saying now. 192 00:12:10,476 --> 00:12:15,796 Speaker 2: What's interesting is the extent to which running for an 193 00:12:15,796 --> 00:12:22,636 Speaker 2: office and running an office are two very very different things, 194 00:12:23,236 --> 00:12:27,796 Speaker 2: and someone may be both capable and interested in running 195 00:12:27,836 --> 00:12:33,236 Speaker 2: an office, but have no interest in running for That's 196 00:12:33,556 --> 00:12:38,596 Speaker 2: the first law. In a democracy. Elections are supposed to 197 00:12:38,676 --> 00:12:48,476 Speaker 2: encourage participation, but they don't. They discourage it. Lotteries encourage participation. Okay, 198 00:12:48,916 --> 00:12:52,756 Speaker 2: crank write's second law. When you choose your student government 199 00:12:52,796 --> 00:12:55,516 Speaker 2: by lottery, you see a change in the kinds of 200 00:12:55,556 --> 00:12:59,356 Speaker 2: things the government actually does. In my high school, the 201 00:12:59,356 --> 00:13:03,716 Speaker 2: student council basically organized dances, not at Adams schools. In 202 00:13:03,756 --> 00:13:07,036 Speaker 2: coach of Bamba, at the Night School, for example, the 203 00:13:07,076 --> 00:13:09,636 Speaker 2: student government tackled all kinds of issues. 204 00:13:10,156 --> 00:13:12,676 Speaker 3: Human trafficking is a big problem there, and so they 205 00:13:12,836 --> 00:13:16,676 Speaker 3: organized a workshop on human trafficking that had like you know, 206 00:13:16,756 --> 00:13:21,876 Speaker 3: theatrical production and breakout groups and stuff. They've gotten First 207 00:13:21,876 --> 00:13:24,316 Speaker 3: aid kits for their schools. The schools don't tend to 208 00:13:24,316 --> 00:13:27,756 Speaker 3: have them. They've organized educational field trips. 209 00:13:28,716 --> 00:13:32,836 Speaker 2: The student council put together soccer tournaments and poetry competitions. 210 00:13:33,236 --> 00:13:34,316 Speaker 2: They opened a library. 211 00:13:34,636 --> 00:13:38,276 Speaker 3: School didn't have one, and so they solicited book donations 212 00:13:38,276 --> 00:13:42,276 Speaker 3: from institutions and DVDs and they were able to get 213 00:13:42,316 --> 00:13:45,796 Speaker 3: a computer donated from the Ministry of Education and they 214 00:13:45,796 --> 00:13:49,676 Speaker 3: set it up and they ran it. They also created 215 00:13:49,676 --> 00:13:52,356 Speaker 3: their own student ID cards because that school didn't have 216 00:13:52,516 --> 00:13:56,156 Speaker 3: ID cards and didn't have uniforms, and since they went 217 00:13:56,196 --> 00:14:00,476 Speaker 3: to school at seven pm, the transportation workers didn't believe 218 00:14:00,516 --> 00:14:03,116 Speaker 3: that there were students since they charged them double. So 219 00:14:03,196 --> 00:14:04,796 Speaker 3: that was the first thing that they worked on that 220 00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:07,156 Speaker 3: was like already number one for all the students was 221 00:14:07,196 --> 00:14:09,276 Speaker 3: we want student ID cards, and so they made their 222 00:14:09,316 --> 00:14:14,396 Speaker 3: own and distributed those to Adam. 223 00:14:14,676 --> 00:14:17,516 Speaker 2: The crucial thing about that long list of accomplishments was 224 00:14:17,956 --> 00:14:20,476 Speaker 2: the range of things the students were interested in. 225 00:14:21,356 --> 00:14:23,356 Speaker 3: What do you mean by that? That's a more diverse group. 226 00:14:24,836 --> 00:14:28,916 Speaker 3: They come from different social circles versus typically, at least 227 00:14:28,956 --> 00:14:31,756 Speaker 3: in Bolivia. You know, it'll be like a group of 228 00:14:31,756 --> 00:14:35,356 Speaker 3: friends who runs for election, right, and so have similar 229 00:14:35,556 --> 00:14:37,836 Speaker 3: perspective on the school and what the school might need 230 00:14:38,716 --> 00:14:41,796 Speaker 3: and or what they're going to offer to win people's votes, 231 00:14:41,836 --> 00:14:45,036 Speaker 3: which is typically more the case. And so a group 232 00:14:45,076 --> 00:14:47,636 Speaker 3: that's brought the book together through lottery. None of the 233 00:14:47,676 --> 00:14:49,716 Speaker 3: students in the student government know each other prior to 234 00:14:50,396 --> 00:14:54,156 Speaker 3: that first meeting, and they often have very divergent interests. 235 00:14:54,196 --> 00:14:58,116 Speaker 3: You know, you'll have you know, jocks and artists and 236 00:14:58,196 --> 00:15:00,516 Speaker 3: you know, like just kind of the whole gamut. 237 00:15:00,356 --> 00:15:03,996 Speaker 2: The whole gamut. Democracies are supposed to be the best 238 00:15:04,036 --> 00:15:07,076 Speaker 2: system for ensuring that a whole gamut of interests are 239 00:15:07,156 --> 00:15:11,876 Speaker 2: represented in government. Kronk Right's second law says that's not true, 240 00:15:12,516 --> 00:15:14,596 Speaker 2: not if the government is drawn from the same narrow 241 00:15:14,676 --> 00:15:18,196 Speaker 2: band of society year after year. It's the lottery that 242 00:15:18,316 --> 00:15:22,116 Speaker 2: gives you a truly representative sample of leaders. After the 243 00:15:22,156 --> 00:15:25,116 Speaker 2: success of a few experiments, Adam helps set up a 244 00:15:25,156 --> 00:15:29,276 Speaker 2: nonprofit called Democracy in Practice to work with student governments 245 00:15:29,276 --> 00:15:29,916 Speaker 2: in Bolivia. 246 00:15:30,796 --> 00:15:34,356 Speaker 3: I can't tell you the number of times that, you know, 247 00:15:35,316 --> 00:15:38,356 Speaker 3: fresh off of a lottery selection, we have the first 248 00:15:38,396 --> 00:15:41,836 Speaker 3: couple orientation meetings and my co founder, Raoul and I 249 00:15:41,876 --> 00:15:45,436 Speaker 3: will come out and we'll be walking together and will 250 00:15:45,476 --> 00:15:49,156 Speaker 3: be saying, oh, you know, so and so they're going 251 00:15:49,236 --> 00:15:51,796 Speaker 3: to be a really important part of this team. You know. 252 00:15:52,436 --> 00:15:56,396 Speaker 3: They present themselves well, they speak well, they're confident, and 253 00:15:57,476 --> 00:16:00,116 Speaker 3: they don't even finish the term of office. 254 00:16:00,516 --> 00:16:03,516 Speaker 2: This brings us to kronk Right's third law, maybe the 255 00:16:03,516 --> 00:16:07,516 Speaker 2: most important of all. Nobody knows anything. 256 00:16:09,876 --> 00:16:11,516 Speaker 3: The number of times that we've walked out of those 257 00:16:11,516 --> 00:16:14,036 Speaker 3: meetings and been worried about a particular student who seemed 258 00:16:14,116 --> 00:16:20,236 Speaker 3: really unplugged, you know, just kind of close body language, uncomfortable, 259 00:16:20,316 --> 00:16:23,236 Speaker 3: didn't participate much, and and we say, we've got to 260 00:16:23,316 --> 00:16:26,316 Speaker 3: work cut out with that student. And it, you know, 261 00:16:26,396 --> 00:16:29,396 Speaker 3: they within a couple of weeks they figure out what's 262 00:16:29,436 --> 00:16:31,956 Speaker 3: expected of them, how they can plug in, and by 263 00:16:31,996 --> 00:16:35,316 Speaker 3: the end of the term they're even voted by their peers. 264 00:16:35,356 --> 00:16:37,476 Speaker 3: It's like one of the most important members of the team. 265 00:16:38,036 --> 00:16:41,396 Speaker 3: And so that's an experience we've had over and over 266 00:16:41,476 --> 00:16:45,276 Speaker 3: again and still kind of get fooled by that. Now, 267 00:16:45,316 --> 00:16:47,916 Speaker 3: the charisma that that that certain students will have and 268 00:16:47,956 --> 00:16:49,076 Speaker 3: the confidence that they'll have. 269 00:16:49,956 --> 00:16:54,396 Speaker 2: So the prediction, the mechanism we're using for predicting who 270 00:16:54,476 --> 00:17:00,196 Speaker 2: will be a good leader, it's just flawed. So you're saying, yeah, yeah, 271 00:17:00,396 --> 00:17:04,516 Speaker 2: even you, even you sometimes fall into this trap of 272 00:17:04,516 --> 00:17:09,596 Speaker 2: of thinking that because a kid presents herself well and 273 00:17:09,636 --> 00:17:12,556 Speaker 2: it's both spoken and charismatic, that she's going to be 274 00:17:12,556 --> 00:17:13,116 Speaker 2: a good leader. 275 00:17:13,356 --> 00:17:18,836 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's really difficult to counter that bias, right, 276 00:17:19,196 --> 00:17:23,236 Speaker 3: And obviously not every student who's confident charismatic, you know, 277 00:17:23,756 --> 00:17:25,796 Speaker 3: has has a big ego and can't work well with 278 00:17:25,876 --> 00:17:27,796 Speaker 3: others and doesn't show up, you know, we've had. We've 279 00:17:27,796 --> 00:17:32,716 Speaker 3: had several students who fit that mold, and we're great teammates. 280 00:17:33,236 --> 00:17:39,316 Speaker 3: But generally it's a lot easier to teach a Shire 281 00:17:39,356 --> 00:17:44,116 Speaker 3: student or student who's not super popular. It's a lot 282 00:17:44,156 --> 00:17:46,356 Speaker 3: easier to teach them to overcome those fears and kind 283 00:17:46,356 --> 00:17:51,436 Speaker 3: of add a few more leadership skills to their skill set. 284 00:17:51,716 --> 00:17:55,916 Speaker 3: Then it is to to teach some of the more confident, 285 00:17:55,996 --> 00:17:58,676 Speaker 3: charismatic students to kind of set aside their ego and 286 00:17:58,756 --> 00:18:00,716 Speaker 3: like be a good member of a team and not 287 00:18:00,796 --> 00:18:04,236 Speaker 3: try to steal the limelight and listen to others and 288 00:18:04,236 --> 00:18:05,636 Speaker 3: not dominate conversations. 289 00:18:06,596 --> 00:18:09,636 Speaker 2: Democratic elections are based on the idea that voters are 290 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:12,316 Speaker 2: good predictors, that they can look at a slate of 291 00:18:12,356 --> 00:18:16,116 Speaker 2: candidates and accurately predict who will be the most effective leader. 292 00:18:16,796 --> 00:18:17,516 Speaker 1: That's why we. 293 00:18:17,436 --> 00:18:20,676 Speaker 2: Have campaigns and speeches and debates to help us make 294 00:18:20,716 --> 00:18:24,916 Speaker 2: that prediction. But in Bolivia, Adam and his team discovered 295 00:18:24,956 --> 00:18:26,836 Speaker 2: that people are lousy predictors. 296 00:18:27,476 --> 00:18:30,636 Speaker 3: The teachers who often aren't in the meetings are just 297 00:18:30,796 --> 00:18:33,636 Speaker 3: constantly fooled by, you know, when they come up and say, oh, 298 00:18:33,716 --> 00:18:35,916 Speaker 3: you know that student, what a great leader you know, 299 00:18:35,916 --> 00:18:38,516 Speaker 3: and they're not even aware that the rest of the 300 00:18:38,516 --> 00:18:40,716 Speaker 3: student government's about to kick them out. You know, they've 301 00:18:40,716 --> 00:18:44,756 Speaker 3: had enough of some of their behavior. And it's one 302 00:18:44,756 --> 00:18:47,956 Speaker 3: student who got picked in the lottery. And during the 303 00:18:47,996 --> 00:18:50,356 Speaker 3: lottery I had a teacher turned to me under his 304 00:18:50,436 --> 00:18:53,356 Speaker 3: breath say, you know that students a dud. You're not 305 00:18:53,396 --> 00:18:56,236 Speaker 3: going to work out, you know. I found out afterwards 306 00:18:56,236 --> 00:18:59,116 Speaker 3: he was the one student from his class of thirty 307 00:18:59,116 --> 00:19:02,436 Speaker 3: five students who had failed the previous year, and he 308 00:19:02,636 --> 00:19:04,956 Speaker 3: was one of the one of the more kind of 309 00:19:05,116 --> 00:19:10,276 Speaker 3: outstanding examples that we've had. He just you really loved 310 00:19:10,516 --> 00:19:13,756 Speaker 3: to work on meaningful projects and be a part of 311 00:19:13,796 --> 00:19:14,796 Speaker 3: a team. 312 00:19:15,476 --> 00:19:19,836 Speaker 2: Now I know what you're thinking. It's Bolivia. What works 313 00:19:19,876 --> 00:19:22,956 Speaker 2: for teenagers and coach of Bamba doesn't necessarily work for 314 00:19:23,036 --> 00:19:25,356 Speaker 2: the rest of us Apples and oranges and all that. 315 00:19:26,236 --> 00:19:29,756 Speaker 2: Except after being schooled by Adam, I began to see 316 00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:31,876 Speaker 2: versions of his logic everywhere. 317 00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:36,956 Speaker 5: Hello, this is Michael Loward. 318 00:19:37,076 --> 00:19:40,156 Speaker 2: Nih delighted that you found time to chat with me. 319 00:19:40,556 --> 00:19:46,076 Speaker 2: I just ran across your papers on peer review and 320 00:19:46,236 --> 00:19:49,756 Speaker 2: citations and found them absolutely fascinating and they fit very 321 00:19:49,836 --> 00:19:53,836 Speaker 2: much in a theme I'm exploring in my podcast. This season, 322 00:19:53,916 --> 00:19:57,996 Speaker 2: so I wanted to chat. Michael Lawer is Deputy Director 323 00:19:58,036 --> 00:20:02,836 Speaker 2: of Extramural Research at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. 324 00:20:03,356 --> 00:20:04,836 Speaker 2: If I had to make a list of the most 325 00:20:04,876 --> 00:20:08,556 Speaker 2: important Americans you've never heard of, Flower's in the top ten. 326 00:20:09,236 --> 00:20:12,036 Speaker 2: He's way way up in what you might call, and 327 00:20:12,076 --> 00:20:15,276 Speaker 2: I mean this in the nicest possible way, the biomedical 328 00:20:15,476 --> 00:20:19,916 Speaker 2: deep state. His office hands out around thirty billion dollars 329 00:20:19,956 --> 00:20:24,756 Speaker 2: a year in research grants to scientists across the United States. Basically, 330 00:20:24,836 --> 00:20:28,076 Speaker 2: if you walk through any biology or chemistry department, or 331 00:20:28,116 --> 00:20:32,436 Speaker 2: any medical school or any medical research institute, Lawer's office 332 00:20:32,636 --> 00:20:36,716 Speaker 2: is what's paying for it. So every year, his office 333 00:20:36,716 --> 00:20:40,956 Speaker 2: gets eighty thousand grant applications from around the country. They 334 00:20:40,996 --> 00:20:43,676 Speaker 2: only have money to find about twenty percent of those, 335 00:20:44,276 --> 00:20:47,516 Speaker 2: so they hold the equivalent of an election. Each of 336 00:20:47,516 --> 00:20:50,956 Speaker 2: those applications gets assigned to a small group of reviewers. 337 00:20:51,436 --> 00:20:53,836 Speaker 2: The reviewers vote for the ones they like and throw 338 00:20:53,876 --> 00:20:56,716 Speaker 2: out the rest. Then those finalists are turned over to 339 00:20:56,796 --> 00:20:58,116 Speaker 2: a second group of voters. 340 00:20:58,716 --> 00:21:01,596 Speaker 5: The reviewers who are assigned to grant will give a 341 00:21:01,636 --> 00:21:05,196 Speaker 5: brief presentation about the grant itself and what they thought 342 00:21:05,236 --> 00:21:08,196 Speaker 5: were the strengths and weaknesses. This is then followed by 343 00:21:08,596 --> 00:21:12,756 Speaker 5: an open discussion. After the discussion is complete, there is 344 00:21:12,796 --> 00:21:14,516 Speaker 5: then a scoring. 345 00:21:14,916 --> 00:21:18,036 Speaker 2: So first round is you're throwing out the bottom the 346 00:21:18,036 --> 00:21:18,716 Speaker 2: bottom half. 347 00:21:18,836 --> 00:21:20,196 Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. 348 00:21:20,356 --> 00:21:24,916 Speaker 2: Second round is you're scoring the remainder. And how what 349 00:21:25,036 --> 00:21:27,356 Speaker 2: is the the scores on a scale of what to water? 350 00:21:27,356 --> 00:21:28,516 Speaker 2: How is the score represented? 351 00:21:28,836 --> 00:21:31,436 Speaker 5: This is like golf, So a lower score is better. 352 00:21:32,516 --> 00:21:35,996 Speaker 5: A score of ten would be perfect. That means that 353 00:21:36,036 --> 00:21:38,676 Speaker 5: as far as the reviewers are concerned, they can't think 354 00:21:38,716 --> 00:21:42,796 Speaker 5: of anything better. A score of ninety would represent the 355 00:21:42,916 --> 00:21:44,316 Speaker 5: absolute worst. 356 00:21:44,836 --> 00:21:48,716 Speaker 2: Those scores are predictions about how good a scientist's proposal is, 357 00:21:49,116 --> 00:21:52,156 Speaker 2: in exactly the same way that the choices voters make 358 00:21:52,436 --> 00:21:55,236 Speaker 2: are predictions about how good a leader a candidate will be. 359 00:21:56,196 --> 00:21:59,076 Speaker 2: Kronkrite's third law says that voters aren't very good. 360 00:21:58,956 --> 00:21:59,676 Speaker 1: At that prediction. 361 00:22:00,636 --> 00:22:04,636 Speaker 2: So Lower wonders, what about the NIH's grant reviewers? Are 362 00:22:04,676 --> 00:22:07,596 Speaker 2: we any good at it? Does the proposal that got 363 00:22:07,596 --> 00:22:11,196 Speaker 2: a perfect ten from the voters grant approval time actually 364 00:22:11,316 --> 00:22:14,916 Speaker 2: end up being the most influential or innovative research. Once 365 00:22:14,956 --> 00:22:19,756 Speaker 2: it's finished, lawer looks around. He can't find any definitive 366 00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:22,716 Speaker 2: answer to that question. This peer review process that you've 367 00:22:22,756 --> 00:22:25,036 Speaker 2: just described has been in place at NIH. 368 00:22:24,676 --> 00:22:27,236 Speaker 3: For how long seventy five years? 369 00:22:27,676 --> 00:22:30,716 Speaker 2: Twenty five years. So we had this situation where we 370 00:22:30,796 --> 00:22:33,636 Speaker 2: have a process in place for many, many years, seventy 371 00:22:33,636 --> 00:22:37,636 Speaker 2: five years, which is from an empirical perspective, unexamined. 372 00:22:39,236 --> 00:22:41,356 Speaker 5: Well, that's right, so. 373 00:22:41,436 --> 00:22:46,916 Speaker 2: Lauer says, let's take a look. His method is simple. 374 00:22:47,556 --> 00:22:50,156 Speaker 2: The standard way that science measures the value of a 375 00:22:50,196 --> 00:22:53,556 Speaker 2: bit of research is how often it's cited by other 376 00:22:53,676 --> 00:22:56,956 Speaker 2: scientists in their work. So if I spend five years 377 00:22:56,996 --> 00:23:00,596 Speaker 2: working on an experiment and no one mentions that experiment again, 378 00:23:01,036 --> 00:23:04,036 Speaker 2: it would be considered a failure. And if it's mentioned 379 00:23:04,316 --> 00:23:08,396 Speaker 2: a thousand times, it's considered a home run. So what 380 00:23:08,516 --> 00:23:12,716 Speaker 2: is there between the score of your grant application and 381 00:23:12,796 --> 00:23:16,156 Speaker 2: the number of citations your work gets once it's finished. 382 00:23:17,196 --> 00:23:18,636 Speaker 1: I think you know where this is going. 383 00:23:21,796 --> 00:23:24,916 Speaker 5: We did not find a strong correlation between the peer 384 00:23:24,956 --> 00:23:31,476 Speaker 5: review score and the citation metrics of the subsequently funded grant. 385 00:23:32,236 --> 00:23:36,076 Speaker 2: Now it's worth pointing something out. Flower doesn't go into 386 00:23:36,116 --> 00:23:39,036 Speaker 2: this thinking that the NAH is going to be subject 387 00:23:39,116 --> 00:23:43,956 Speaker 2: to Chronkrit's third law. Nobody knows anything after all, lower's 388 00:23:44,036 --> 00:23:48,516 Speaker 2: not talking about adolescents judging other adolescents. He's talking about 389 00:23:48,596 --> 00:23:53,036 Speaker 2: distinguished scientists judging the potential of other distinguished scientists. 390 00:23:53,796 --> 00:23:58,356 Speaker 5: We had assumed that we would find a reasonably strong 391 00:23:58,396 --> 00:24:02,636 Speaker 5: correlation between the peer review score and the grant productivity. 392 00:24:03,156 --> 00:24:09,156 Speaker 2: Really, I had assumed that you went in skeptical No. 393 00:24:10,596 --> 00:24:13,596 Speaker 5: But then again, exactly as I said, if we knew 394 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:15,396 Speaker 5: what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research. 395 00:24:17,636 --> 00:24:21,516 Speaker 2: Kronk Wrt's third law applies outside of coach of Bamba. 396 00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:24,916 Speaker 2: It applies even at the National Institutes of Health, to 397 00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:28,596 Speaker 2: the process by which billions of dollars of research money 398 00:24:28,636 --> 00:24:32,556 Speaker 2: is distributed. It's not kronk Wrt's third law. It's kronk 399 00:24:32,636 --> 00:24:42,356 Speaker 2: Right's universal third law. When Lauer publishes his research, lots 400 00:24:42,396 --> 00:24:45,476 Speaker 2: of other scientists look at his results and say, if 401 00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:50,076 Speaker 2: he's right, our electoral system in science is broken. I mean, 402 00:24:50,516 --> 00:24:54,276 Speaker 2: why bother voting on grants at all. People throughout the 403 00:24:54,316 --> 00:24:59,356 Speaker 2: scientific community start talking like Adam, start saying, let's just 404 00:24:59,396 --> 00:25:02,716 Speaker 2: do a lottery. Let the reviewers make the first cut 405 00:25:02,836 --> 00:25:05,596 Speaker 2: and get rid of the obvious losers, then put the 406 00:25:05,636 --> 00:25:08,756 Speaker 2: rest in a hat. My favorite article ran in the 407 00:25:08,796 --> 00:25:13,796 Speaker 2: wallst Journal by two microbiologists, Ferrik Fang and Arturo cost 408 00:25:13,796 --> 00:25:18,436 Speaker 2: of All entitled taking the Powerball Approach to funding medical 409 00:25:18,476 --> 00:25:23,836 Speaker 2: research Powerball for goodness Sake with the subtitle winning a 410 00:25:23,836 --> 00:25:27,396 Speaker 2: government grant is already a crapshoot, Making it official by 411 00:25:27,436 --> 00:25:29,996 Speaker 2: running a lottery would be an improvement. 412 00:25:30,476 --> 00:25:33,836 Speaker 5: There's a famous line from Nil's board, and also attributed 413 00:25:33,916 --> 00:25:36,916 Speaker 5: to Yogi Berra, that prediction is very hard, especially about 414 00:25:36,956 --> 00:25:43,196 Speaker 5: the future. By its very nature, science is unpredictable. And 415 00:25:43,316 --> 00:25:47,116 Speaker 5: essentially what we are asking scientists to do is to 416 00:25:47,156 --> 00:25:52,396 Speaker 5: make predictions about something which is itself inherently unpredictable. 417 00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:57,396 Speaker 2: Well so is leadership. Leadership is even more unpredictable than 418 00:25:57,396 --> 00:26:01,356 Speaker 2: scientific merit, So why do we insist on making predictions 419 00:26:01,756 --> 00:26:06,796 Speaker 2: about something which is inherently unpredictable? Along these lines, I 420 00:26:06,836 --> 00:26:10,956 Speaker 2: did something fun two days ago. I went to a 421 00:26:11,556 --> 00:26:14,876 Speaker 2: to the Lawrenceville School, I got fancy boarding school in 422 00:26:14,916 --> 00:26:18,156 Speaker 2: New Jersey, and I spoke to a group of kids, 423 00:26:18,916 --> 00:26:22,196 Speaker 2: seniors and juniors, a random group of kids, but including 424 00:26:22,236 --> 00:26:25,716 Speaker 2: the student council and student uncil president, and I told 425 00:26:25,756 --> 00:26:30,076 Speaker 2: them about your work. I describe it to them, and 426 00:26:30,156 --> 00:26:32,836 Speaker 2: I said, you know at Lawrenceville, you have a very 427 00:26:32,876 --> 00:26:37,116 Speaker 2: similar situation. This is a pre selected group of highly 428 00:26:37,156 --> 00:26:40,756 Speaker 2: able people which you use essentially a peer review process 429 00:26:40,756 --> 00:26:44,516 Speaker 2: to decide who was eligible for the student council. Right, 430 00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:47,836 Speaker 2: they have a vote, yep. And I said, well, given 431 00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:51,236 Speaker 2: the fact that doctor Lower's work suggests that we're bad 432 00:26:51,236 --> 00:26:54,356 Speaker 2: at making those kinds of predictions at the very top, 433 00:26:54,916 --> 00:26:57,156 Speaker 2: would you consider change in the way you elect your 434 00:26:57,196 --> 00:26:58,596 Speaker 2: student council and student council president? 435 00:26:59,676 --> 00:27:00,036 Speaker 4: Laughs. 436 00:27:00,836 --> 00:27:06,516 Speaker 2: No. On the contrary, as you'll discover, the students at 437 00:27:06,556 --> 00:27:09,436 Speaker 2: the Lawrenceville School did not laugh at this idea. Yeah, 438 00:27:09,876 --> 00:27:20,876 Speaker 2: at all thoughts comments, this is something you'd ever think 439 00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:23,276 Speaker 2: of trying here? Do you think Bolivia is different than 440 00:27:23,796 --> 00:27:28,836 Speaker 2: New Jersey? The students at the Lawrenceville School take the 441 00:27:28,956 --> 00:27:32,516 Speaker 2: argument I brought them very seriously. They have lots of questions. 442 00:27:33,036 --> 00:27:36,956 Speaker 2: The democratic process at Lawrenceville is steeped in tradition. They're 443 00:27:36,996 --> 00:27:39,356 Speaker 2: a little leery of leaving the process up to chance, 444 00:27:39,956 --> 00:27:42,956 Speaker 2: especially for the top student body president. 445 00:27:43,436 --> 00:27:44,876 Speaker 6: You don't want to have to go to a first 446 00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:47,916 Speaker 6: school meeting and have a president who's a little bit shaky, 447 00:27:48,276 --> 00:27:50,996 Speaker 6: because the first time you go to school meeting, you're 448 00:27:51,036 --> 00:27:54,036 Speaker 6: expecting the freshmen to be excited about the school year ahead, 449 00:27:54,316 --> 00:27:56,996 Speaker 6: and the seniors everyone in between to be excited about 450 00:27:56,996 --> 00:27:58,956 Speaker 6: the school yearhead. You don't want to have to learn 451 00:27:58,996 --> 00:27:59,476 Speaker 6: with them. 452 00:28:00,356 --> 00:28:03,716 Speaker 2: The students are crammed into a small conference room. Some 453 00:28:03,836 --> 00:28:07,036 Speaker 2: sit at a long table, others stand along the walls. 454 00:28:07,596 --> 00:28:10,156 Speaker 2: The headmaster and one of the schools steens stand by 455 00:28:10,156 --> 00:28:13,476 Speaker 2: the door. A microphone is passed to whomever wants to speak. 456 00:28:13,996 --> 00:28:16,636 Speaker 2: This is a student named solet you want. 457 00:28:16,516 --> 00:28:20,476 Speaker 6: To have someone initially who is a figurehead who can 458 00:28:20,636 --> 00:28:24,116 Speaker 6: immediately be put into a stressful situation of talking to 459 00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:28,196 Speaker 6: the entire school and basically the entire faculty perform at 460 00:28:28,196 --> 00:28:28,796 Speaker 6: the high level. 461 00:28:29,356 --> 00:28:32,756 Speaker 2: One of the president's most important functions at Lawrenceville is 462 00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:36,396 Speaker 2: the school meeting that happens in the auditorium every Thursday morning. 463 00:28:36,996 --> 00:28:40,236 Speaker 2: Forty five minutes all the students show up. It's a 464 00:28:40,276 --> 00:28:41,716 Speaker 2: central part of the school culture. 465 00:28:42,356 --> 00:28:45,836 Speaker 7: Hi Am Quinn, I think that a good public speaker 466 00:28:45,916 --> 00:28:48,556 Speaker 7: is someone who is willing to be vulnerable with the audience, 467 00:28:49,276 --> 00:28:51,316 Speaker 7: which is also why I think that being a good 468 00:28:51,356 --> 00:28:54,876 Speaker 7: public speaker and being a sociable, energetic person is really 469 00:28:54,916 --> 00:28:59,836 Speaker 7: important in being a good leader, because when you're vulnerable 470 00:28:59,916 --> 00:29:04,236 Speaker 7: on stage like Tay last year wrapped on stage, which 471 00:29:04,276 --> 00:29:06,036 Speaker 7: was awesome and got us really excited. 472 00:29:06,476 --> 00:29:10,956 Speaker 2: Hey, Lawrenceville's current student body. He's standing at the back 473 00:29:10,956 --> 00:29:13,756 Speaker 2: of the room. Later, when we chat, I learned he's 474 00:29:13,796 --> 00:29:17,916 Speaker 2: half Nigerian half Kenyon, grew up in London. I've noticed 475 00:29:17,956 --> 00:29:23,316 Speaker 2: that we have not heard from the current president student Council. 476 00:29:26,156 --> 00:29:28,916 Speaker 2: Hold on k for the Tay is the only one 477 00:29:28,916 --> 00:29:30,836 Speaker 2: in the room wearing a suit. A little bit of 478 00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:32,236 Speaker 2: his English formality. 479 00:29:32,876 --> 00:29:34,596 Speaker 1: Tell me why you think you were elected? 480 00:29:34,876 --> 00:29:35,436 Speaker 3: What I think? 481 00:29:35,556 --> 00:29:37,356 Speaker 8: I think a large part of why I was elected 482 00:29:37,796 --> 00:29:40,396 Speaker 8: is the fact that I am someone who has made 483 00:29:40,396 --> 00:29:42,796 Speaker 8: sure that I am very president on campus. I speak 484 00:29:42,836 --> 00:29:45,156 Speaker 8: to as many people as possible. I think I'm known 485 00:29:45,156 --> 00:29:48,036 Speaker 8: for generally being someone who does speak to people and 486 00:29:48,116 --> 00:29:49,876 Speaker 8: looks to make change and help people. 487 00:29:50,076 --> 00:29:51,916 Speaker 1: Did you really wrap in your speech? 488 00:29:51,996 --> 00:29:54,236 Speaker 8: Yes, so my my closing speech. The person I was 489 00:29:54,316 --> 00:29:57,756 Speaker 8: running against, he was a phenomenal speaker. He partakes in theaters, 490 00:29:57,756 --> 00:30:01,276 Speaker 8: so he was, if not as good, he was definitely 491 00:30:01,356 --> 00:30:04,636 Speaker 8: he's actually I would actually say he's a better public 492 00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:06,676 Speaker 8: speaker than I was. So I knew that I had. 493 00:30:06,596 --> 00:30:08,716 Speaker 1: All the great public speakers. By the way, do that exactly. 494 00:30:08,716 --> 00:30:10,316 Speaker 1: They claim that others are better public speech. 495 00:30:10,316 --> 00:30:14,996 Speaker 8: Oh oh no, But genuinely, he is someone who who 496 00:30:15,276 --> 00:30:17,196 Speaker 8: speaks on stage law. He is a theater kid, so 497 00:30:17,596 --> 00:30:19,836 Speaker 8: he is he's greater at public speaking. So I knew 498 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:22,076 Speaker 8: that he was going to come in essence, all guns 499 00:30:22,076 --> 00:30:24,396 Speaker 8: blazing and produce a phenomenal speech. So I knew that 500 00:30:24,436 --> 00:30:26,556 Speaker 8: there was some way in which I had to show 501 00:30:26,596 --> 00:30:30,316 Speaker 8: that I am a quote unquote fun guy and someone 502 00:30:30,316 --> 00:30:32,436 Speaker 8: that the student body could relate to. So I decided 503 00:30:32,476 --> 00:30:33,956 Speaker 8: to go out with a wrap. 504 00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:36,316 Speaker 3: In my closing statement, I. 505 00:30:36,236 --> 00:30:39,876 Speaker 2: Have to say I really liked Day. He's incredibly thoughtful 506 00:30:39,876 --> 00:30:43,476 Speaker 2: and charismatic. My first thought after talking to him was 507 00:30:43,916 --> 00:30:46,276 Speaker 2: would I have voted for him? I think I would have. 508 00:30:47,516 --> 00:30:49,996 Speaker 2: But then I thought, aren't I making the same mistake 509 00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:53,596 Speaker 2: that Adam kronk Write warned about. Am I unfairly ruling 510 00:30:53,676 --> 00:30:56,436 Speaker 2: out other students who might be just as capable of 511 00:30:56,476 --> 00:30:59,636 Speaker 2: being a great student body president. Back when I met 512 00:30:59,636 --> 00:31:02,396 Speaker 2: with Adam kronk Wright, he talked about this one student 513 00:31:02,596 --> 00:31:04,956 Speaker 2: at one of his schools in coach Obamba. 514 00:31:04,996 --> 00:31:05,916 Speaker 1: What happened to him? 515 00:31:06,236 --> 00:31:06,316 Speaker 4: Like? 516 00:31:06,396 --> 00:31:06,996 Speaker 1: What happened? 517 00:31:07,316 --> 00:31:09,076 Speaker 2: I really should have played this tape for the Laurens 518 00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:09,836 Speaker 2: Hill students. 519 00:31:11,196 --> 00:31:16,076 Speaker 3: He just he started off. He looked bored, he looked uncomfortable, 520 00:31:16,436 --> 00:31:18,756 Speaker 3: you know, just like slouched in his chair, didn't know 521 00:31:18,756 --> 00:31:22,036 Speaker 3: if he was listening and stuff. The moment that they 522 00:31:22,076 --> 00:31:26,236 Speaker 3: started to do some of that work, he just would 523 00:31:27,476 --> 00:31:31,236 Speaker 3: wake up in the meetings basically and start bottom lining things. 524 00:31:31,276 --> 00:31:32,676 Speaker 3: He said, Oh, I can go, you know, I can 525 00:31:32,676 --> 00:31:34,196 Speaker 3: go take the letter down to the Mayor's office. I 526 00:31:34,196 --> 00:31:36,276 Speaker 3: can go do this, I can go do that, and 527 00:31:36,316 --> 00:31:39,316 Speaker 3: he'd do it. He'd file through, you know, and that 528 00:31:39,756 --> 00:31:42,276 Speaker 3: sometimes is in short supply when you're working with teenagers, 529 00:31:42,316 --> 00:31:46,876 Speaker 3: you know. And he really liked to do those types 530 00:31:46,916 --> 00:31:49,076 Speaker 3: of things and he'd file through. And so then people 531 00:31:49,156 --> 00:31:51,636 Speaker 3: started to count on him, and they realized they could 532 00:31:51,636 --> 00:31:54,316 Speaker 3: count on him, and he took on a lot of responsibility. 533 00:31:55,116 --> 00:31:58,316 Speaker 2: Adam CRONKWRD also told me about another student named Richard 534 00:31:58,596 --> 00:32:02,836 Speaker 2: Knew in school, completely introverted, who then blossomed and turned 535 00:32:02,876 --> 00:32:05,716 Speaker 2: out to be one of the most effective student council members. 536 00:32:06,316 --> 00:32:08,596 Speaker 3: I remember walking with him after one of the first 537 00:32:08,636 --> 00:32:12,676 Speaker 3: meetings and I told them, you know, this is your opportunity. 538 00:32:12,716 --> 00:32:15,396 Speaker 3: Everyone else in the group is looking to you as 539 00:32:15,436 --> 00:32:19,676 Speaker 3: a leader and he stopped dead in his tracks. You know, 540 00:32:19,916 --> 00:32:22,196 Speaker 3: he looks at me all confused, and he says, I'm 541 00:32:22,196 --> 00:32:25,836 Speaker 3: not a leader. I'm not always out front and don't 542 00:32:25,876 --> 00:32:30,796 Speaker 3: menando like dominating the conversation, you know. And I told them, like, 543 00:32:30,836 --> 00:32:33,356 Speaker 3: that's not our conception of leadership. 544 00:32:33,356 --> 00:32:33,516 Speaker 5: You know. 545 00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:36,316 Speaker 3: A leader is someone who develops leadership and other people 546 00:32:36,676 --> 00:32:40,636 Speaker 3: right and works well on the team. 547 00:32:40,716 --> 00:32:43,716 Speaker 2: And I think this is the key, the larger lesson 548 00:32:43,756 --> 00:32:47,436 Speaker 2: behind Cronkrite's three laws. It isn't just that we're bad 549 00:32:47,436 --> 00:32:52,516 Speaker 2: at making predictions. It's worse than that. It's that our 550 00:32:52,516 --> 00:32:56,236 Speaker 2: whole system of prediction is screwed up because we require 551 00:32:56,276 --> 00:32:59,196 Speaker 2: that our candidates perform for us. Will never get the 552 00:32:59,276 --> 00:33:01,996 Speaker 2: richards of the world or the student who everyone thought 553 00:33:01,996 --> 00:33:04,916 Speaker 2: would be a dud. Neither of them could win an election, 554 00:33:05,036 --> 00:33:08,076 Speaker 2: could they. They'd slouch in their chairs and look bored 555 00:33:08,116 --> 00:33:11,556 Speaker 2: and uncomfortable. They get blown off the stage, even though 556 00:33:11,596 --> 00:33:14,036 Speaker 2: both those kids could end up being great leaders in 557 00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:18,756 Speaker 2: their own right. In that room at Lawrenceville, they were 558 00:33:18,756 --> 00:33:22,116 Speaker 2: Indian and Korean, and Chinese and African and African American 559 00:33:22,156 --> 00:33:25,676 Speaker 2: and white American kids. They were from all over. Some 560 00:33:25,716 --> 00:33:28,676 Speaker 2: were funny, some were serious. Some sounded like they were 561 00:33:28,676 --> 00:33:32,116 Speaker 2: forty five years old, some seemed very young. They were 562 00:33:32,156 --> 00:33:36,556 Speaker 2: as varied and idiosyncratic as any group of teenagers anywhere 563 00:33:36,596 --> 00:33:39,756 Speaker 2: would be. So why when it came to their leader 564 00:33:40,156 --> 00:33:42,796 Speaker 2: did they cling to a system that ensured that only 565 00:33:42,916 --> 00:33:49,836 Speaker 2: one type the performer could win. Now, even if you 566 00:33:49,916 --> 00:33:53,676 Speaker 2: accept those arguments, there's still the problem that a lottery 567 00:33:53,916 --> 00:33:57,676 Speaker 2: doesn't feel right. If you win an NAH grant under 568 00:33:57,716 --> 00:34:00,196 Speaker 2: the old system, you get to walk around and say 569 00:34:00,596 --> 00:34:03,196 Speaker 2: my grant was selected over thousands of others. 570 00:34:03,836 --> 00:34:04,756 Speaker 1: It feels earned. 571 00:34:05,636 --> 00:34:08,436 Speaker 2: If you win an election, you get to say that 572 00:34:08,556 --> 00:34:12,196 Speaker 2: people chose me, and that people get to say I 573 00:34:12,396 --> 00:34:12,996 Speaker 2: chose her. 574 00:34:13,996 --> 00:34:19,396 Speaker 4: My name's Frankie. And I think another aspect of the 575 00:34:19,556 --> 00:34:23,956 Speaker 4: sort of arbitrarily picked lottery like it's effect. I think 576 00:34:24,916 --> 00:34:28,116 Speaker 4: it's worth thinking about its effect on like the students 577 00:34:28,156 --> 00:34:31,956 Speaker 4: themselves and their kind of response in terms of their 578 00:34:32,076 --> 00:34:37,476 Speaker 4: lack of control or say over who is decided to 579 00:34:37,516 --> 00:34:38,156 Speaker 4: be the leader. 580 00:34:39,236 --> 00:34:41,916 Speaker 2: But here's what I think Adam Krunkwright would have said 581 00:34:41,916 --> 00:34:45,916 Speaker 2: to Frankie. You can't just pay attention to the legitimacy 582 00:34:45,996 --> 00:34:49,036 Speaker 2: of the end result. You have to pay attention to 583 00:34:49,076 --> 00:34:52,236 Speaker 2: the legitimacy of the process. I suppose we did this 584 00:34:52,316 --> 00:34:55,356 Speaker 2: in you know, we chosen a big set of people 585 00:34:55,396 --> 00:34:58,676 Speaker 2: and then chosen our president by lottery. What percent of 586 00:34:59,036 --> 00:35:01,036 Speaker 2: American presidents would have been female? 587 00:35:01,836 --> 00:35:02,196 Speaker 1: Fifty? 588 00:35:03,676 --> 00:35:07,556 Speaker 2: So wait, you guys twice I've heard this argument that 589 00:35:07,716 --> 00:35:15,116 Speaker 2: by in depends on elections, but when it comes to presidents, 590 00:35:15,316 --> 00:35:17,156 Speaker 2: it seems to be the opposite. Is true that if 591 00:35:17,196 --> 00:35:20,116 Speaker 2: we had a lottery a, a whole lot of people 592 00:35:20,196 --> 00:35:24,276 Speaker 2: right now who feel disenfranchised would feel enfranchised. It was 593 00:35:24,356 --> 00:35:27,516 Speaker 2: at that point that a sophomore ninged Summer, suggested a 594 00:35:27,596 --> 00:35:30,716 Speaker 2: hybrid plan, kind of like the Lawrenceville version of the 595 00:35:30,756 --> 00:35:34,716 Speaker 2: idea that has been floated for the NIH. Have voters 596 00:35:34,836 --> 00:35:37,476 Speaker 2: make a first cut, then pick the final winners by 597 00:35:37,516 --> 00:35:39,036 Speaker 2: lottery who has. 598 00:35:38,836 --> 00:35:41,796 Speaker 9: That potential to learn and to grow and is open 599 00:35:41,836 --> 00:35:46,476 Speaker 9: to other viewpoints, whereas someone who's already stuck in their ways. 600 00:35:46,796 --> 00:35:51,836 Speaker 2: Summer laid out her idea, then stopped, looked around the room. Wait, Summer, 601 00:35:51,876 --> 00:35:53,596 Speaker 2: don't give up. This is this is I love this, 602 00:35:53,756 --> 00:35:57,156 Speaker 2: keep going, so walk me through. I'm going to make 603 00:35:57,196 --> 00:35:59,876 Speaker 2: you dean of students for the day. By the way, 604 00:36:00,156 --> 00:36:03,996 Speaker 2: the fact that Summer stopped like that while exploring her idea. 605 00:36:04,356 --> 00:36:07,516 Speaker 2: That's exactly the point of Adam kronk Write's lottery work 606 00:36:07,556 --> 00:36:11,316 Speaker 2: with students in Bolivia, because the electoral system does not 607 00:36:11,516 --> 00:36:15,076 Speaker 2: reward the candidate who, midway through explaining her idea during 608 00:36:15,076 --> 00:36:18,156 Speaker 2: a debate pauses to gather feedback and take the temperature 609 00:36:18,196 --> 00:36:21,076 Speaker 2: of the room and reflect on whether what she's saying 610 00:36:21,476 --> 00:36:24,836 Speaker 2: is actually what she wants to say. No, the system 611 00:36:24,876 --> 00:36:28,876 Speaker 2: rewards the candidate who blunders ahead, convinced of their own brilliance. 612 00:36:29,956 --> 00:36:33,796 Speaker 2: I want more candidates like Summer keep going. So describe 613 00:36:33,836 --> 00:36:35,676 Speaker 2: to me how this works. I like this idea a lot. 614 00:36:36,116 --> 00:36:38,676 Speaker 9: So I think the preliminary part, like I said, would 615 00:36:38,716 --> 00:36:44,396 Speaker 9: be an anonymous procedure, where people could prepare a piece, 616 00:36:45,196 --> 00:36:47,276 Speaker 9: any piece they wanted, whether it be a project, an 617 00:36:47,396 --> 00:36:50,036 Speaker 9: essay of video. And then from there I was either 618 00:36:50,156 --> 00:36:53,596 Speaker 9: thinking that there could be a lottery system from there, 619 00:36:53,716 --> 00:36:57,116 Speaker 9: because at that point you know that people chosen are 620 00:36:57,196 --> 00:37:01,356 Speaker 9: ones you're equally interested in representing the community. 621 00:37:01,836 --> 00:37:04,796 Speaker 2: Right, So Summer, we're gonna call us the Summer proposal. 622 00:37:05,636 --> 00:37:09,956 Speaker 2: So what you're saying is suppose all the students look 623 00:37:09,956 --> 00:37:13,196 Speaker 2: at these fifty projects, and then you're saying that they 624 00:37:13,236 --> 00:37:16,436 Speaker 2: would vote on the ones they liked the best. Yes, 625 00:37:16,516 --> 00:37:21,956 Speaker 2: and then from that pool you would do potentially a lottery. Yes. 626 00:37:22,316 --> 00:37:23,396 Speaker 8: Yes, love this idea. 627 00:37:27,796 --> 00:37:30,756 Speaker 2: Now that they had thought about their electoral system and 628 00:37:30,836 --> 00:37:34,196 Speaker 2: talked about the alternatives, how happy were they with the 629 00:37:34,196 --> 00:37:35,196 Speaker 2: status quo? 630 00:37:35,556 --> 00:37:36,356 Speaker 1: I wanted to vote? 631 00:37:37,196 --> 00:37:40,116 Speaker 2: I want to show up hands. Scale of one to ten. 632 00:37:40,356 --> 00:37:42,756 Speaker 2: Ten meant happy, one meant disillusion. 633 00:37:42,996 --> 00:37:43,596 Speaker 1: What should it be? 634 00:37:43,676 --> 00:37:45,836 Speaker 2: Hold? What should it be? Because I'm gonna let you know, 635 00:37:45,876 --> 00:37:47,236 Speaker 2: and I'm going to hold you to this. And I 636 00:37:47,236 --> 00:37:50,156 Speaker 2: got them to agree that six should be the threshold. 637 00:37:50,396 --> 00:37:54,236 Speaker 2: Anything less than six, anything less than that, and they 638 00:37:54,236 --> 00:37:58,956 Speaker 2: should consider calling their own constitutional convention and rewriting the rules. 639 00:37:59,116 --> 00:38:01,156 Speaker 1: Raise your hands, way up, way up, way up, way up. 640 00:38:01,556 --> 00:38:03,996 Speaker 1: It carries a day, cooks right. I'll let you know. 641 00:38:04,556 --> 00:38:05,556 Speaker 1: Thank you all very much. 642 00:38:09,436 --> 00:38:12,996 Speaker 2: I went home and counted their average happiness score with 643 00:38:13,116 --> 00:38:18,516 Speaker 2: the electoral status quo five point three. A tried and 644 00:38:18,596 --> 00:38:22,996 Speaker 2: tested democratic process honed over generations at one of America's 645 00:38:23,076 --> 00:38:26,316 Speaker 2: most prestigious private schools. And when you ask the students, 646 00:38:26,836 --> 00:38:29,996 Speaker 2: even for a moment to think about how well it works, 647 00:38:30,396 --> 00:38:35,756 Speaker 2: they say, we're not so sure. Oh, I forgot to 648 00:38:35,796 --> 00:38:39,636 Speaker 2: mention one thing, kind of a big thing. Wait, so 649 00:38:39,756 --> 00:38:43,116 Speaker 2: do you think colleges should Where I really wanted to 650 00:38:43,156 --> 00:38:46,676 Speaker 2: push this discussion was maybe colleges should choose their students 651 00:38:46,676 --> 00:38:47,836 Speaker 2: by lottery. 652 00:38:49,556 --> 00:38:51,316 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to be said for that. 653 00:38:51,916 --> 00:38:54,876 Speaker 1: It you liked that idea, Machia, I. 654 00:38:54,796 --> 00:38:58,156 Speaker 2: Think I do. I'm not prepared to give you a 655 00:38:58,156 --> 00:38:59,116 Speaker 2: full answer on it. 656 00:38:59,836 --> 00:39:01,036 Speaker 1: You guys write down age. 657 00:39:01,636 --> 00:39:04,996 Speaker 2: They were mostly juniors and seniors either on the cusp 658 00:39:05,076 --> 00:39:08,156 Speaker 2: of the endless college application process or in the middle 659 00:39:08,156 --> 00:39:11,836 Speaker 2: of it. And selection is the student body president problem 660 00:39:12,196 --> 00:39:16,356 Speaker 2: times ten. Right, the student runs for a highly coveted position, 661 00:39:16,756 --> 00:39:19,956 Speaker 2: the university makes its prediction. But if NAA T viewers 662 00:39:19,996 --> 00:39:23,356 Speaker 2: can't predict the best scientists based on grant proposals, and 663 00:39:23,436 --> 00:39:27,116 Speaker 2: if voters pass over perfectly good candidates because they slouch 664 00:39:27,236 --> 00:39:30,436 Speaker 2: in the corner, how on earth can universities pick the 665 00:39:30,476 --> 00:39:36,436 Speaker 2: best students based on college applications. There are much much 666 00:39:36,476 --> 00:39:37,676 Speaker 2: bigger fish to fry here. 667 00:39:39,156 --> 00:39:40,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, I like it. 668 00:39:40,596 --> 00:39:41,516 Speaker 3: I like the idea a lot. 669 00:39:41,916 --> 00:39:45,676 Speaker 2: Another revolutionary I was suddenly so giddy with excitement that 670 00:39:45,756 --> 00:39:48,676 Speaker 2: I didn't catch his name. Lanky kid, big head of 671 00:39:48,716 --> 00:39:50,596 Speaker 2: curly hair. Do you think that the reason you and 672 00:39:50,636 --> 00:39:52,836 Speaker 2: I think alike. So much is that our hair is similar? 673 00:39:53,436 --> 00:39:53,756 Speaker 2: I think? 674 00:39:53,796 --> 00:39:57,396 Speaker 1: Sorry exactly, I called. 675 00:39:57,116 --> 00:40:01,276 Speaker 2: For another vote on support for college admission lotteries. Show 676 00:40:01,316 --> 00:40:07,636 Speaker 2: of hands, Oh most of you? Well, half the revolutionaries 677 00:40:07,756 --> 00:40:09,836 Speaker 2: are not at the gates Lawrenceville. 678 00:40:10,356 --> 00:40:11,556 Speaker 1: They're inside the gates. 679 00:40:12,796 --> 00:40:28,836 Speaker 2: Next stop for Adam Kronkwright, New Jersey. Revicious History is 680 00:40:28,876 --> 00:40:32,996 Speaker 2: produced by Mia LaBelle and Lee Mingestu, with Jacob Smith, 681 00:40:33,116 --> 00:40:37,876 Speaker 2: Eloise Linton, and Anna Naime. Our editor is Julia Barton. 682 00:40:38,116 --> 00:40:42,676 Speaker 2: Original scoring by Louis Scara, mastering by Flawn Williams. Fact 683 00:40:42,756 --> 00:40:47,916 Speaker 2: checking by Beth Johnson. A special thanks to the Pushkin Crew, 684 00:40:48,556 --> 00:40:53,916 Speaker 2: Hede Fane, Carly Migliori, Maya Knig, Maggie Taylor, Jason Gambrell, 685 00:40:54,276 --> 00:41:01,116 Speaker 2: and of course LFA Jacob Weisberg. Oh and big thanks 686 00:41:01,156 --> 00:41:04,076 Speaker 2: to the staff and students of the Lawrenceville School for 687 00:41:04,116 --> 00:41:13,916 Speaker 2: a really fun afternoon. I'm Malcolm Goma. It would have 688 00:41:13,916 --> 00:41:16,636 Speaker 2: been so much clever if I had had them to 689 00:41:16,796 --> 00:41:18,916 Speaker 2: have a lottery to decide on whether to have a lottery. 690 00:41:18,996 --> 00:41:21,276 Speaker 2: That would have been so meta and great. But I 691 00:41:21,316 --> 00:41:26,236 Speaker 2: missed that opportunity.